BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM

The percentage of smokers among medical doctors is as high as among other academically trained adults (statistics from Germany, but not likely to be much different in other countries). I do not know about teachers and other persons of high social responsibility, but I do not see any indication that it is much lower there.

One method to become a rational person (in that respect) rarely works: to declare oneself publicly a militant non-smoker.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 02:10 PM

"I think people who rationalise tend to be rational. "

I think people who rationalize make up nonsense to justify their BS, which is far from rational.

verb: rationalize; 3rd person present: rationalizes; past tense: rationalized; past participle: rationalized; gerund or present participle: rationalizing; verb: rationalise; 3rd person present: rationalises; past tense: rationalised; past participle: rationalised; gerund or present participle: rationalising

    1.
    attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.
    "she couldn't rationalize her urge to return to the cottage"
    synonyms:        justify, explain, explain away, account for, defend, vindicate, excuse More
    "he tried to rationalize his behavior"

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

Oh yea - Not too far from Knott End either.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:00 PM

I'm just back from a reconnaissance to Whalley Abbey. Eeeee, the there Abbots had a good life. Unlike the poor monks that is. Just think how much better life as a Messiah would be if you just took over the big house there and let us electrolytes have free reign in the local hostelries! Right near the holy hill of Pendle too.

Bollocks!

DtG, C, LB and SPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:52 PM

Regarding your foray into UK newspapers. At least you choose to read a "rational" one.

Relatively speaking.

I am glad the Pope thinks his God likes non believers. Not too sure about his senior managers who seek to backtrack from his statements though.

I hope he realises the Co Messiahs and associated gnome will forgive him too. So long as he does good things that don't trouble his conscience.

Oh bugger.

There's the misogyny.

There's the cover up of serious abuse.

There's the taking money from the desperate poor and gilding statues with the proceeds.

There's the outrageous absurdity that a real man can read the mind of a fictional construction and demand a few billion people believe it in what he says.

There's the fact that they do.

Tell you what. How's about we accept that all religious people are religious but some are militantly so? It allows you to put sweet old ladies in the same silo as suicide bombers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:40 PM

I was having a pop at whoever wrote in your name at 10.52 on 11 September. I can't help it if either your login or your personality has been hijacked.

Me? yeah I reckon I'm rational but there again rational is a subjective stance because you can have an imaginary friend or think the government have put an implant in your brain or support Liverpool FC and still think that from your perspective you are rational.

I think people who rationalise tend to be rational.

Just a hunch.





Your posts tend to put you in a different category by my own rationalising but you would expect that or question why I still try to get it into your bloody head that you and your idol de Waal confuse non superstition with anti superstition.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM

I also rather like the smoking analogy. If you want to smoke yourself to death in the privacy of your own hovel, that's fine by me, though I might have a word if I like you enough. But if you do it in the presence of children or other vulnerable people, I'm on the attack there all right. Not because I'm a militant, but because my instinct is to protect people from harm, and in threatening their health you're infringing their rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:57 AM

Follow your own conscience

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:43 AM

Musket, Your reaction is to chastise me for some new thoughts I have never uttered or even entertained?

And you class yourself among "rational people."

Interesting. If that is being rational, then enjoy it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:39 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:01 AM

The little baby Jesus apparently

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:36 AM

'institutional misogyny, organised homophobia'

An interesting choice of clichés - they don't like women, men + men or women + women, so who else is left to like?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:22 AM

Some "reborn" anti-smoking activists smoke secretly, others use e-cigarettes with or without nicotine and/or other dangerous substances, many become adipose or alcoholics etc. We must strive to reconcile rationality with other parts of human nature, which does not work if we ignore the latter. It strikes back, and may even become more harmful than before.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:07 AM

Have any of these militant atheists ever stabbed believers in the neck? Indicted them under any new laws they have dreamt up? Threatened them with 14 years imprisonment for publishing their beliefs? I think not.

It is happening the other way.

Bollocks!

DtG, C, LB and SPS

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:49 AM

You can form your moral compass by reading the invisible teachings on a Rizla.

I like the smoking analogy. Less people indulge than a few years ago. Lots give it up because it makes no sense carrying on. Some try and fail whilst cold turkey always drags at others.

Non smokers fail to see why we have to put up with the stink and hope they don't smoke in the same room as children and vulnerable adults who don't know it would be healthy to be in another room.

Smokers speak of their rights whilst impinging on the rights of the majority. They have lobbying bodies to stem the flow of intolerance to how they affect others and indeed their own long term health.

Snag is, we have a few 100 a day roll up merchants pushing their right to smoke on mudcat.org. They have hallucinations where non smokers are seen as anti smokers.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:16 AM

One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight.

I suppose it's like being a Non-Smoker. The Religious person is a Smoker, stinking it up for everyone else in the mistaken belief they are exercising & engendering free-will when in fact they are operating from a position of deep-seated self-righteousness and disregard for anyone but themselves.

Like religion, smoking isn't natural, nor is it good for you. On the contrary, like smoking it is harmful to oneself and others, however much it is indulged in terms of its cultural legacy and folklore. Yet it is our human right to breathe clean fresh air without being polluted and infected by smokers' fumes.

Atheism addresses itself to the simple matter of being free to live in a world without religious pollutants and carcinogenic concepts getting in the way of the pursuit of good sense and happiness.

Thus, I will be aggressive as a Non-Smoker - militant in my right for clean air free of poisons. I will be aggressive an an Atheist - militant in my right to open discourse and colloquy free of noxiously toxic god-dogmas that the religious find so comforting but to the greater human cause are as rancid as the leavings in an old ashtray.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:26 AM

In which case you must have thick skinned arse cheeks.

Who are "they"?

Either trying to be serious or laughing at you, it remains the same. You seem incapable of seeing religion as something to do with just those interested or compelled by it and see rational people as those who have in their lives given religion some thought. Years ago you may have had a point as families indulged in ritual, school assemblies were religious in their format and you tended to accept its place in society without thought. Or at least that was the situation around here.

We are two or three generations in some areas beyond religion having any impact on life. (Add a couple of generations for Doncaster. ) It may pain you to know that most people in The UK either aren't exposed to religion as children or dismiss it as irrelevant once their balls drop.

Note the word irrelevant. Not evil, not to be challenged, not to be overthrown in some bloody crusade. Just irrelevant.

Today I read of yet another "if we have women bishops I will have to resign as a vicar" story. Bye then.

Most normal well adjusted people with a modicum of intelligence can't sign up to institutional misogyny, organised homophobia and promoting people in the same communities as equal or lower to others. That is far different to asserting an alternative.

Not having an imaginary friend is not an alternative to having one. It means you aren't in the market for considering one in the first place.

Please for once, for crying out loud, get that into your thick skull.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 10:52 PM

Thank you for sparking the following insight Grishka

I guess this constant nay saying and deliberate misstating of what others have said is the militant Atheist analog to counting angels on the head of a pin?

One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight. Mr. Dawkins uses public "debates" to sell his books. Is there an easier way to pick a fight with all clergy than using the title of the book as an insult.

I can see now that there is no way to discuss this topic with some of you without it being a fight in your minds at least.

There remains no other course for me than to turn the other cheek. Have at it gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:38 PM

Stringsinger 11 Sep 13 - 05:38 PM, as far as you are commenting on my posts, I do not think a reply is needed other than inviting anyone interested to read them thoroughly, which you do not seem to have done. Please do not confuse me with others. Just one thing:

The very same thing can be said about the grave misconceptions of non-belief.

As you write (and I wrote before), non-belief does not have a coherent set of by-laws that would lend itself to conceptions or misconceptions, thus any such ideas would be fallacious right from the start.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:29 PM

there is not conclusive evidence
that there is (are) no god(s) but so far no one has satisfactorily provided scientific evidence that there is one or more.

But the thing is that these Christian chappies, and all the other God-squadders, are somewhat up their own bottoms when it comes to evidence. They themselves have deliberately put their deity beyond science, laughably enough. I reckon that, if he really existed, he'd be well pissed off with 'em all for doing that. Their God can't be who he is unless he breaks every law known to science: he was always there, always will be, knows everything, can create stuff from nothing, never misses a trick, has dominion over each and every one of us. So I suppose we have to keep asking for evidence of his existence, though, sadly, it's a dead cert that none will be forthcoming. Their delusion is predicated on the fact that, no matter how intelligent they may be in other spheres of life, they shut their minds off entirely to the quest for evidence when it comes to God. What a way to live!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM

I meant that longer post of yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:15 PM

I agree with all that, Stringsinger. I'm supposedly one the militant atheists around here, yet I don't even know what a bloody atheist is supposed to be for a start. I've never started a militant atheist thread, unlike Wacko, who starts militant Christian anti-atheist worry-threads willy-nilly at the drop of a hat, the poor thing, and I haven't got much of a creed to speak of, just a requirement for evidence (which these blustering Christians never, ever oblige me with). It appears that you become a militant as soon as you express doubt about God's existence and ask for evidence. God knows what these neurotic Christians are so scared of!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:10 PM

"That belief of yours is certainly not evidence based. "

Again, this misinterprets the idea of non-belief by a oxymoron. I don't have a
belief as has been ascribed to me. As to evidence, there is not conclusive evidence
that there is (are) no god(s) but so far no one has satisfactorily provided scientific evidence that there is one or more.

Non-belief is not a belief but a questioning and criticism of those who profess that somehow their belief is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:04 PM

Yebbut I can never visit Cleveleys ever again after my boyhood experiences there in the 50s, one rain-soaked week every bloody August at Mrs Flannelfoot's digs and the highlight of a mug of Horlicks per day at the greasy spoon down the side-street opposite the Cleveleys And Oldham Used Car Show. You honestly think you could ever lure me back there?? Huh???

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 05:38 PM

The impugnment of Dawkins as a scientist has to be expected by those who espouse
a god but can't prove that one exists. I maintain that "militant atheism" is a fallacy and the label is used as a weapon to isolate and denigrate non-belief. The reason there is no militant atheism is because there is no unilateral ideas, creed, or opinion and certainly no
"faith" that would constitute a coherent set of by-laws that is found in religion.

"My own view is that the whole discussion is misled because of grave misconceptions about the very notion and character of religion."

The very same thing can be said about the grave misconceptions of non-belief.

"Militant means fighting, thus those who fight can be called militant - what else?"

The label is spurious. It is used as a pejorative, here, to insist on a fundamentalist idea
that is shared by those wanting to denigrate non-belief. The whole intent of this thread is to make atheists fanatics which isn't true.

For that matter, we can talk about militant religionists who insist that their "faith" is
to be accepted as somehow untouchable by criticism. Let's start a new thread,
Militant religionists are the New Religion. These are the ones who fight against Dawkins and other non-believers by denigrating his and other's non-belief viewpoints. It's hypocritical to say that these religionists (on Mudcat and other places) are not attacking
non-belief because it is evident that they are.

"He occasionally suggests that Darwin's theory applies to sociological groups; after all, his perceived authority is based on his past successes in Evolution Theory."

Yes but this is not "Social Darwinism" which is an idea perpetrated by early industrialist businessmen in the U.S. to justify their exploitation over their workers and the poor. This was a misreading of Darwin who actually never made the statement "the survival of the fittest" used to justify reprehensible actions of Libertarians and the statement is not in the Origin of Species.

Religion, if it is to be untouchable when it comes to criticism, becomes "militant". It's fair game to disagree politically and denigrate political parties or ideas but somehow someone's "faith" is above commentary or questioning? This is the height of hypocrisy.
We can discuss, even passionately argue about politics but religion is so "holy" that it's out of bounds. Why is that?

You don't have to agree with Dawkins, there's no rule book for that but to impugn him as a bad scientist by those who have no scientific credentials whatever on the basis that they are somehow devout enough not to have to discuss their "faith" intelligently is arrogant and intolerant. It's so religious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 03:42 PM

I know this will come as a blow, but the Talbot Square Yates's burned down several years ago. An amazing building that I remember still had sawdust on the floor right to the end. There are plans afoot for a Phoenix-like resurrection.

Cleveleys was hailed as the New Jerusalem. The New Church began there and now has branches as far afield as Canterbury for ready pilgrimage - though they still flood into Cleveleys. B&M Bargains! Who needs religion with such fruits so readily dangling for the enrichment of our very souls?

Verily I say unto you : Keep it Real! Militant Atheism for the People!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:24 PM

Yeah but co Messiah. .. from Cleveleys you can get a tram to Talbot Square and spend the night in Yates. ..

Not that Yates has sawdust on the floor any more. Or a woman in a cubicle joined to the bar, or just serving halves for known winos.   Or dodgy Australian wines before they became de rigour.

Do religious types dream nostalgically about drafty pews with splinters?

We all have our comfort blankets. Mine was in Blackpool as a lad.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:16 PM

I don't think I would put stringsinger too far up the militant scale, as he has been far more concilatory and respectful of late, and especially compared to some others on these threads.

Rather ironic, coming from a a man who disrespects honest, hard-working scientists at every turn and who hasn't even got enough respect to take a single thing on board from anyone who doesn't sing from his literalist hymnsheet. Eyes tight shut and hands clasped over ears. And don't you just lurve the beautiful non sequitur in that sentence of his?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 12:20 PM

All right, KEMAT, but you will not get me to Cleveleys, I warn you...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 11:33 AM

Judging by those responses, can one then conclude that as the concept has so few similarities to any recognised religions, that it is illogical to label M.A. in this way?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 09:42 AM

""Disregarding the spurious invention displayed above, do the M.A.s have an actual website?""

Good point!

Apart, as you say, from the spurious...........!

They don't!

No website.
No meeting houses (church, mosque, synagogue or temple).
No rites.
No rituals.
No hymns.
No chants.
No one to worship.
No groups to worship together.

This is sounding like no religion I ever heard of.

Mind you, I tend to believe in a deity (for lack of a better word), while also eschewing all of the above nonsense.

This may be why I feel more at home among the unbelievers.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket grinning
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM

How do you know it is spurious unless you .... Oh. [blush]

Kemat. I would have joined you but I got in a round in The Bourne Arms, you know how it is. I have to make a run for it down the ramp to the ferry as it is in case I bump into that old girlfriend from Preesall or her brother in law who threatened me, which makes a change from him frightening kids I suppose.

Whereabouts on the north shore? Used to ge a good pub behind the Derby Baths but since that got knocked down I lost my bearings a bit around there. I'll be waiting somewhere near my Aunty's old boarding house on Lord St as that seems ironic enough. You can stuff the Hollands rat coffins though. I come from the proper side of the Pennines. Fleur de Leys or nowt.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 08:24 AM

Disregarding the spurious invention displayed above, do the M.A.s have an actual website?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM

Popular version of Social Darwinism (not shared by all militant atheists): We, the Enlightened, form a higher step of evolution and therefore have the right to oppress the earlier life forms, just as the mammals overcame the dinosaurs. If you wish to be saved, join our lines and pray for enlightenment; you might even become wealthy, as opposed to the opiated proletarians. No need to really understand the Scriptures of Dawkins, just emphasize their Oxford-certified Truth of Science, and salvation is near! Praise Evolution!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:26 AM

The Knott End Militant Atheist Tendency will be having their annual excursion to the Blackpool Illuminations on Friday 28th of September, meeting at 7.30pm at Fleetwood Lower Light on a specially chartered 'Heritage Tram' to take them to North Shore where they will be met by Dr Bill 'Awkins who will deliver the first of several talks on The Destiny of Divinity in a Post-Religious Society.

'Awkins argues that the post-religious age dawned with the Victorian Enlightenment and ever since then humanity has been in technological ascendency with respect of industry, science and medicine, entirely negating the need for religion which has been relegated to :

'...a reactionary superstition lacking any real dynamic or authority. To the so-called religious this Neo-Religion is an entirely elective romanticism at odds with societal reality, which is now Godless by default. Even the would-be religious know this - their craving is thus for comfort and certainty. They crave what Marx once called The Opiate of the Proletariat in full knowledge that what they are getting is, in fact, a placebo.

'Once humanity has attained Atheism, Science and Technology, there can be no going back into the dark for our innocence is lost. Those who claim to believe in God are being nostalgic for a religious age they have no understanding of. Even the Victorians knew this, couching their imagery in terms of a Gothic revivalism which was every bit as anachronistic then as it is now. In the Middle Ages, everything was depicted in contemporary terms but there is no place for Jesus in modern clothes, bust as there is no place for Jesus in the modern world. No one knows God is dead more than Christians; they mourn his death in a faux-faith which isn't even worthy of being seen in terms of folklore.'

Afterwards, there will be a choice of fish 'n' chips, Holland's pies and home-made hot-pot in the Bispham village hall before the return journey to Fleetwood and a nocturnal river crossing on the Wyre Rose to the headquarters of KEMAT where such atheist classics as 'They Can't all be Right but They Can all be Wrong' and 'Religion is to Spirituality What Pornography is to Sexuality' will be given a through dressing down to the accompaniment of Miss Harper on her VCS3.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:14 AM

Stringsinger,

This is a disguised ad hominem criticism by maintaining that it is an ego-driven pursuit to be "popular" and how do you know he is flattered by anything?

I know that many atheists who were not interested in biology at all, applauded Dawkins, e.g. his book "The Blind Watchmaker" (1986). In other words, they flattered him, in the hope of obtaining new arguments. I do not know whether Dawkins actually felt flattered or had other reasons, ego-driven or not, and I do not care particularly, but he shifted away from biology altogether in later years, notably in "The God Delusion" (2006).

I don't see that he has strayed to "Social Darwinism"

He occasionally suggests that Darwin's theory applies to sociological groups; after all, his perceived authority is based on his past successes in Evolution Theory. The effect is that some people demand privileges for their (often enough falsely claimed) "enlightenment". This I criticize strongly, whether or not Dawkins can be personally held responsible.

Militant means fighting, thus those who fight can be called militant - what else? Fighting can be honorable, depending on its cause and its means. Firefighters are heroes, and are seldom asked whether they actually hate fires.

Note that the Scripture fundamenatlist form a small minority among the targets of Dawkins's fight. Many religious functionaries have long publicly accepted Evolution Theory, sometimes adding their provisos in a way that cannot interfere with research. Their philosophy can still be questionable, of course, but Dawkins prefers to compare them to leprechaunologists.

My own view is that the whole discussion is misled because of grave misconceptions about the very notion and character of religion. Such misconceptions are shared by many atheists and most (!) speakers for religions. I wrote more on other threads; just one thing here (re Musket): the relationship between ethics and religion is much more complicated than commonly perceived; those who do good only in order to go to heaven, do so for ego-driven reasons and therefore rightly go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 05:09 AM

www.hedontknowjackshit.com

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 04:36 AM

Do the M.A.s have a website?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:55 AM

Does that mean I can go back to childish name calling and piss taking?

Just wondered.

Your apology to "atheists as a group" is your own version of misrepresenting and not reading what others have put. It is your insistence that such a group can exist that started all this tosh in the first place. Your technique of third party quoting to push your stance whilst giving yourself the freedom of agreeing or not agreeing with it a la de Waal is rather transparent. Even pete has the courage of stating his own conviction.

Anyway, I note my co Messiah is back from his days in the wilderness and the associated gnome is making friends whilst trimming his hedge so must dash.



You mention my own research. Excellent example of not labelling. Yes it is rather wrapped in physics and I sometimes agree the word physics applies but in reality and more importantly for application it is in engineering. Unlike my son who did all his earlier work and Masters in physics but for his PhD research is dropped into the engineering faculty.

I don't admire the good professor as a scientist as my knowledge and understanding of his subject precludes my having an opinion. A bit like those who deride him because he questions their Creed rather than making proclamations on his subject they understand.

Douglas Adams wasn't a comedian by your urban dictionary standards. He was a writer. A bloody good one at that. He dealt in fantasy mainly. I suppose that made his views on religion "informed" views.

Or piss takes as you might say.

Tatty bye.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:37 AM

Back to defend anti-religion from fictional attacks Mr. Shaw. Carry on!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:32 PM

I return refreshed, Wacko dear boy (or girl - Jeez...) from my holiday only to find that you are, fortunately, still here (what other entertainment shall there be?). Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 05:26 PM

Grishka, Excellent points about Dawkins, I have been trying to make similar points about The God Delusion.

Musket, you are not paying attention to what is being said.

Here it is briefly

Dawkins fights against religion in publication and speeches, He is proud of that. He is a militant atheist as per the Urban Dictionary.

No one is making blanket statements about all atheists except for what you and stringer are imagining is being said. I am being very specific in who I am referring to. I will now hereby apologize for anything that I may have said to give ANY impression that I was talking about or have any ill will or criticisms of atheists as a group.

You seem to admire Dawkins greatly as a scientist. That is nice. But you have told us you are a Phd. Physicist. Does that degree make you an expert in metaphysics? Neither does Dawkins' degree and work in biology qualify him as an expert in the existence of God. You may well respect his opinion, but that is all "The God Delusion" is one man's opinion. Ask Griska is saying. HE IS NOT SPEAKING FROM SCIENCE. He quotes Doug Adams, sci-fi comedian, rather than citing scientific

I have been entirely too patient with you by constantly explaining these things to you while you consistently misrepresent what I say. This is the last time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 05:21 PM

"I can think of several alternate words and phrases to describe your participation in and starting of this discussion, but to call you them would violate the terms of use of this board. "

This is an insulting remark and typical of the religious reaction to non-belief.
It belies the objectivity that a true discussion of this issue would engender.

Actually the original premise of this thread is that somehow a "militant atheist"
which has not really been defined is somehow equated with a fundamentalist religion. There is no church, no ritual, no hymn, no profession of any kind of
faith involved in non-belief and as much as some would like to pigeonhole those as non-belief, the hostility it engenders far exceeds any supposed hostility to religious people by non-believers. Once again, I will make myself clear. Neither Dawkins or me are hostile to religion but it has to be questioned within the bounds of reason.

I don't hate religion personally. I have no hostile feelings toward anyone who is religious. Also, I think that their religious delusion doesn't reflect a delusion in any other part of their life. Religious people can lead productive lives and contribute immensely to society. In my view, this is despite and not because of their professed religious beliefs.

My interpretation of what Dawkins is saying is that religion can cause people to do awful things and witness what is going on in Syria right now. I see no hostility in Dawkins at all toward religious people. His approach is to interview them in order to understand why they believe the way they do.

As for his scientific creds, I think he has proven them. His book, "The Greatest
Show on Earth" is a love letter to Darwin and is beautifully done.

"The important phase, however, was when Dawkins, flattered by the success of his popular books, strayed to areas of "Social/Sociological Darwinism", which is an ideology not backed by science at all."

This is a disguised ad hominem criticism by maintaining that it is an ego-driven pursuit to be "popular" and how do you know he is flattered by anything?
I don't see that he has strayed to "Social Darwinism" which has been used by
Libertarians and traditional "moneybags" business people to claim a statement never uttered by Darwin, "Survival of the fittest" to justify their wealth at the expense of the poor.

As for scientific proof, there has been none offered for the "faith" by religious people. Since you can't prove a negative (a logical fallacy), the defense of religion can't be offered on scientific grounds.

My reading of Dawkins is that he is more concerned with what religion does to people rather than of what it consists. The behavioral track record doesn't look too good.

There may be some possible disagreements that I could find with Dawkins and my point is that there is no unilateral tenet or creed among people of non-belief
that would make them acolytes of a "militant" idea. This is a total misunderstanding of the people of non-religion.

"Militant" has a pejorative connotation in the eyes of the defenders of "faith"
and thereby is a weapon contrived to discredit non-belief.

There are many different ideas about non-belief that belie any militant conformity.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 04:36 PM

""Who are the religious zealots and who decides who they are?""

Good question!

The answer is, of course, just take a look at all the recent discussions of atheists on this forum.

With the single exception of this one, the OPs are people of religious faith attacking atheists.

Does that supply a clue?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket scratching his arse
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 12:42 PM

I was scratching my head, but being a realist rather than an ideologist, scratching my arse at least has a purpose.

Funny how agreement can be phrased to look like contradiction?

If, as some imagine, atheist is the antithesis of theist, then that convenient label fails to take into account those who cross the street to avoid a beggar on their way to church or the Godless bloke caught loving his neighbour.

Reminds me of the sanctimonious berk I once worked with who pointed out that he gives to charitable causes because he is a Christian. I pointed out that I like red sauce on my egg butties because I am a football fan. He promised to pray for me so I offered to watch David Hirst score a goal for him.

Although it isn't quite so surreal to point out that our understanding of evolutionary biology evolves. Presumably through the work promoted by academics in that field. Lets see now.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 09:09 AM

Just "The Emeritus", Musket? Why not "THe EMeritus" (reflecting traditional spellings like "THe LOrd" etc.)?

Evolutionary biology is what it is; its relationship with metaphysics has not been changed at all by Dawkins' work in that field. A lot of the theory amounts to probabilistic mathematics - controversial only for internal reasons.

The Scripture people oppose that science altogether. Dawkins made a good target for them because he was prominent, and because they could instrumentalize that internal criticism, of course without understanding anything of it.

The important phase, however, was when Dawkins, flattered by the success of his popular books, strayed to areas of "Social/Sociological Darwinism", which is an ideology not backed by science at all. (In fact some of its claims would in principle be accessible to scientific methods, but only few have been treated successfully hitherto - and certainly not by Dawkins, who is proud not to be a sociologist.)

Summary: beware of ideologists, whether or not they claim science and/or "common sense" and/or divine inspiration and/or tradition.

And yes, "concerned", it has a lot to do with politics, both in theory and in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:37 AM

But concerned, surely nobody gives a tuppenny toss about housing crisis, jobs, health or other proletariat issues.

But we will happily debate whether you are male or female or whether that affects your habit of wearing bras and stockings.

Grishka gets my understatement of the last 10 mins award for referring to The Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Biology at Oxford as a bloke who used to write a few books about biology.

His conclusions and theories were derided by many on the basis of they contradicted religious Scripture. I would be a bit Pissed off too if influential people dismissed scientific research by comparing it to fantasy and fiction. Whether it would make me a crusader such as he became is another kettle of fish though.

Unlike one contributor here, I don't seize on views of others and say their views purely reflect a following of Dawkins.

Rather funny really.

Here, my dog doesn't attend a church. Is he an atheist? Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM

Is that dawkins related to Jack Dawkins the Artful dodger?..

Point is does it really matter.While you pseudo academics are scratching yourselves with one hand and thumb up bum with 'tother..the world is in a state of chaos..Do you clowns really think the skinny jean, blackberry fondling youth of today are interested in this crap.

Why don't you turn what passes for your collective brains and come up with solutions to help the unemployed, stop the attack on our health service, housing crisis, job cuts..these are the real issues not dork fodder that you lot discuss in your cosy little world.

Do something!!! or crayons are on way

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 06:38 AM

Dawkins used to be a biologist who wrote some popular-scientific books about evolution theory, which I read. His ideas were generally well received among his fellow biologists, though not found explaining as much as sometimes claimed.

Starting with "The God Delusion", he switched to becoming an activist. He does not claim any scientific knowledge about his new subject (philosophy, sociology, and psychology of religions), and indeed deliberately boasts the opposite - see his famous "leprechaun" comparison. He is proud to fight religion, in other words, he is a militant atheist. Whenever he criticizes aspects of particular religions (which alone would make him merely a critic of religions), he describes them as consequences of religious faith.

The following is important and not known to everybody: his original starting point was a speculation about the biological evolution of religious predispositions in humans. It sounded somewhat plausible (though not to scientists who are long past this sort of "Darwinisms"), and led him to his new ideas that religion is no longer favorable to the survival of mankind, on the contrary. "Like the dinosaurs" - as another popular biologistic superstition says.

In the light of evolution theory, his present efforts can well be compared to cutting the tails of mice.

I wrote a similar post, but shorter, to a Mudcat thread last year, and found that some replies defended Dawkins in the style of some Muslims defending Muhammad - "sainthood" indeed.

I do not want to be part of ideological disputes, but I would like to emphasize that they must not be confused with science, even when led by (former) scientists. The great successes of science have brought about an aura (now somewhat crumbling, but still considerable) which attracts all kinds of superstition, with or without traditional attributes of religion. "Scientology" is the ultimate such label.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM

There you go again, just because Prof Dawkin would be comfortable with a label such as you describe (although neither of us has ever asked him his view. .) you assume anybody with a view different to yours is some form of acolyte of his.

Why?

Is it that we are both British? Is it because neither of us have a religious faith? Buggered if I know what else it could be? You seem to know a lot about him anyway when I mention that all the Abrahamic religions don't consider their children as religious till they have a rites of passage of some description, you pounced on it and said we were all just quoting Dawkins. Presumably forgetting The Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, chief Rabbi and myriad Islamic clerics.

Can you for once read an opinion without invoking your fascination with Dawkin?

Early in the morning. Can't remember if its Dawkins or Dawkin.

Your take on what I said above by the way is based on thinking I hate religion. Perhaps if you read what I put rather than what you like to think I put you may not make such absurd conclusions.

For that matter I have never promoted atheism. I don't know what it means for starters. If I promote anything it would be informed choice before jumping in bed with any club, society or cult. If something needs brainwashing of children or preying on vulnerable adults in order to boost membership rather than laying out the benefits of membership to informed adults then it really needs to have a good think about relevance.