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BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:03 AM What I read in this thread (not in others that I did not bother to read at all) sounds quite passionate and even angry, frequently resorting to polemic rhetorics Hmm. The suspicion of non sequitur there. You should remember that polemic rhetorics (sounds fierce!) can also be spawned by scorn, derision and belly laughter. You may rest assured that my blood pressure has never gone up by a single millimetre as a result of posting here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM " ... as a result of that ideology their own religious position of there being no God leads to the sacrosanct belief in particles to people evolution ,despite lacking any observational evidence to support that belief." Here we go again! So where's the "observational evidence" for God then, pete? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:36 AM Steve, I am by no means suggesting that your anger (in the form of aggressive scorn) is caused by Mudcat posts or by the splendour of religious revelations. I for one do not have an "agenda" of scaring anybody - why should I? If you have, it is your problem. The point is, you do not appear like a cool guy who encounters ill-advised persons. Neither do Musket and Stringsinger. Abuses may be just a matter of manners, but refusing to apply the self-claimed rationality (as a punishment for stubbornness) is definitely not a good method of convincing anybody. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 13 - 08:55 AM I put forward my viewpoints as clearly and simply as I can. That's what I aim to do. Convincing people of anything when I don't possess certainties is pretty low on my agenda. That's quite handy, really, because it absolves me from being diplomatic with idiots, which I've always regarded as being something of a waste of time. Well, I suppose I'd like to persuade one or two people to ditch their bogus certainties, if I'm pushed, but, frankly, I'm more likely to find a duff bottle of Hirondelle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket being cool Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:04 AM I'm a cool dude ok? Encountering ill advised persons, or people on English, is known as suffering fools gladly. As I haven't had to suffer anybody here, I post gladly. This isn't reality. Reality is debate, this is defending whatever absurdity we started with. Internet chat room debates cannot be anything else. Abuse is just another way of saying "you are weird and to engage in serious debate with you makes me weird too, and that would never do." Far better to call someone a delusioned nutter to be honest. That's a luxury we don't often get in the real world. Too polite, see? I know some people who could easily form a band with pete, but I smile and change the subject rather than question their sanity. On that subject... What the flying fuck is a non believer by carelessness? It would be careless to allow yourself to ge brainwashed by all that literal nonsense if you were anything other than an impressionable child or vulnerable adult. How fecking arrogant is that? Didn't your God tell you to be meek? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:08 AM " as most are non believers by carelessness rather than conviction." Pete, I respectfully disagree. Most non believers are not careless but have arrived to the conclusion of non belief by many years of careful consideration. Grishka, I take exception to your value judgement, "The point is, you do not appear like a cool guy who encounters ill-advised persons. Neither do Musket and Stringsinger." A cool guy in my estimation can be one who refuses to take a position on anything and hides behind a self-righteous pseudo-objectivity creating "Ill-advised" persons. Steve's anger might stem from a certain smugness that is evinced by those who are so assured of their position philosophically or intellectually. In my own defense, I maintain the right to explore what others are saying to be true and be open to change if appropriate scientific evidence is presented. I don't consider religious people to be "ill-advised persons" but those who have been subjected to doctrinal beliefs without questioning them. As I have stated before, these people can be entirely rational and non delusional in other areas of their lives. Grishka, a haughty attitude condemning an aggressive attitude is in itself a form of aggressive expression. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:11 AM Very well, Steve, I take your word (though I will not put any money on it at the moment; I would have already lost some in Stringsinger's case). Being "diplomatic with idiots" is normally not required at Mudcat, but abusing them is not a good alternative. Just ignore what you want to ignore. You still owe me an explanation what you think I am scared of - the sole reason why I bring up the matter. Note my main message of 16 Sep 13 - 06:05 AM, and Musket's subsequent approval. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:28 AM "What the flying fuck is a non believer by carelessness?" It isn't anything at all other than an artifact conjured up by pete's lack of control over the English lingo. or should i say english. There are many things pete doesn't get, however, and I suppose his rotten use of English is the least of his problems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:41 AM You still owe me an explanation what you think I am scared of I don't really owe you anything, but, thing is, you appear to be scared of Dawkins, from whom you persistently distance yourself. Well, Dawkins dines out well on his writings and his atheism (I think he's excellent in both areas myself), I won't deny. But he is as straight as a die on God and religion. He expresses no certainties about the non-existence of God, unlike his religious opponents (who are scared stiff of him). He occupies very secure ground in that his demands, for evidence, are solid and simple and justified on any rational grounds I can think of. Nothing to be scared of or recoil from there. If Dawkins makes you nervous (join the pete 'n' Wacko club!), you need to question your own intellectual security in matters of faith. Question his tactics by all means, but even there he isn't so bad. I mean, anyone who can successfully get up the noses of bishops can't be all bad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:29 AM Stringsinger, I was describing my observations, nothing related to justice at all, let alone to aggression. Everybody must be his own judge about the soundness of his posts - I merely give hints when reacting to messages addressing me. If you think I refuse taking a position myself - I took a clear position here several times, on the topic of your OP. Generally at Mudcat, I am more often accused of being too outspoken. There is nothing wrong with stating one's own opinion and criticizing others, stating whom exactly and for what exactly. The others must then be allowed to "plead not guilty".— Steve's anger might stem from a certain smugness that is evinced by those who are so assured of their position philosophically or intellectually.If this is so, succumbing to one's anger amounts to admitting defeat, particularly in the light of the accusation "they are just projecting their personal traumas". Steve seems to prefer the smug and scornful side himself.— Steve, Dawkins does not pose any threat to my personal faith whatsoever, and if you find anything in my posts suggesting otherwise, tell us. ("You owe me" means that your accusation hitherto lacks corroboration.) Some of my concerns about and objections to Dawkins and his followers are specified above, you can read and criticize them if you are interested. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:52 AM ""There is nothing wrong with stating one's own opinion and criticizing others, stating whom exactly and for what exactly. The others must then be allowed to "plead not guilty".—"" Which is exactly what the initiator of all but one of these threads was doing to Atheists, except for the fact that he brooks NO contradiction, nor any dissent. For him, Atheists are NOT allowed to enter a plea. They are guilty because HE says they are! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket clarifying Date: 18 Sep 13 - 11:31 AM Grishka. Try not to confuse "no issue" with approval. I have no issue with Sheffield United being a football team but don't for one minute expect me to acknowledge their ability to play football. And still we have this "Dawkins and his followers" crap. If by that you mean people who don't need to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, he should stand for election because that describes the vast majority of the population. Stop saying that atheism is a position. Ask someone who can speak English for crying out loud. The question you need to ask is "Why does it begin with a?" Whilst I could live with the idea that anybody aggressively against the concept of religion would be an atheist, they also may be ginger, collect stamps, own a dog or regularly use a huge dildo. It doesn't mean all dog owning ginger, self gratifying philatelists are atheists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 18 Sep 13 - 12:23 PM OK, Musket, "no issue" suffices to make my point. "Dawkins and his followers": a large label, but not quite as large as "atheist", sind D. wrote many books with more claims than just "God does not exist." Although it is not the topic here, allow me to list some (of many) points why Dawkins is not at all "straigt as a die":
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:02 PM All I get from your bullet point list is that you don't really like Richard Dawkins. Most of what's in your your list is opinionated and not supportable. I have neither the time nor energy to go through all your scattergun points, but just take this as an example: He adopts a notion of God from monotheist fundamentalists, often pretending it to represent all religion Of course he doesn't just construct a notion of God from "fundamentalists". The God Delusion targets belief in God in general, fundamentalist or not. He doesn't need to cover every single monotheistic and polytheistic belief system, as his main thrust is the point they all have in common, that there is no evidence for them. The flying spaghetti monster is just as plausible as God is. You seem to want nuance from him that is not called for. Good for him that he won't be bogged down by mischievous booby traps of that sort! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:05 PM And cut out the entirely inappropriate "Steve's anger" crap. That kind of stuff just gets me angry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket laughing Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM If I were so scared of an Oxbridge Don, I'd first of all ask myself I were personally scared or whether I had been programmed to be so by the source of your bullet pointed nonsense. Secondly, if religion has the answers, shallow adherents wouldn't need to react to rational criticism in the way rabid dogs foam at the mouth when he is mentioned. Thirdly, I remain amused by how he is entering these debates. He doesn't speak for atheists because most atheists have never even heard of him, let alone be interested in his works. I assume of course we are talking of the same distinguished eminent professor? I don't recognise the charges. They say more about the writer and their origin than they do about the scientist questioning why religion has to interfere with those who couldn't care a monkeys cunt about medieval superstition. The masses have other distractions now, and as can be seen, don't need it for a moral compass. The less I care for religion, the less I feel like raping, pillaging and wreck less abandon. Yup, I seem to have a moral compass without the need for an imaginary friend. Maybe altruism is a feature of evolution after all! Tambourines sell well on eBay if delusion ever leads to disillusion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 18 Sep 13 - 02:23 PM "Steve's anger": Stringsinger's topic, not mine. Scared: no. "Religion has the answers": not my claim, repeat: not my claim. "He doesn't speak for atheists": exactly, that is why I speak of D. and his followers. "Moral compass": a very complex topic indeed, hardly touched yet in this thread. What about a new one "Religion and ethics" - stuff that may well rival "mum" in extension. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 18 Sep 13 - 03:39 PM perhaps steve would care to back up his assertions by telling us who the religious opponents are who are scared of dawkins. on the other hand, I could name those whom he wont debate,- but of course he has other reasons ,or so he says! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 18 Sep 13 - 06:08 PM pete, dear fellow, if the religious opponents of Dawkins weren't so shit-scared of him, they'd ignore him. Richard has that wonderful way of tickling believers' insecurities, and the point about those insecurities is that people of faith get terribly nervous when some militant atheistical thug comes along to innocently ask for evidence (I mean, how double-dog DARE they!). Odd, that! As for who he won't debate with, I think you'll find he has no fears on that front. He says there's no point debating with idiots, and I agree, and, from that perspective, as I'm addressing this to you, I would ask that you see this post as a piss-take and not a debating post, innit. Yeah. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket noting Date: 19 Sep 13 - 02:42 AM pete. You've used the capital I again... your mask is slowly slipping. Anyway, how do you know whether people use capitals in their minds when speaking in tongues? Funny how this thread has degenerated to having to defend someone who frankly needs no defence by others and I am sure can defend himself far better than either my co Messiah or I can. If he doesn't join in the chimps tea party it is possible that he may not be a chimp. (Yes, the Darwinian irony was intended. ) Grishka. It isn't the complexity of ethics, rather the silly assertion that without religion you cannot have them. A number of people on these threads appear to think you need a combination of a preacher and an imaginary friend in order to have any moral compass. Interesting aside. A church near us got a millennium fund grant to stop it falling down on condition it is used for hiring out for concerts and other community wide non religious purposes. A local folk band were booked for a concert and as their act includes explaining the origins of songs and tunes, they appealed to a fair sized audience. I went over, after all I was a member of a "doner" band and it was good to catch up with old mates. Despite the terms of the grant, I was told the other day that the church committee has adopted a motion to ensure heathen anti church material isn't portrayed in the house of God in future. They played some Morris tunes and spoke of pagan origins of good harvest and fertility for crying out loud. Delighted to hear one person resigned from the committee and has informed The Charities Commission. You don't answer to anything higher than government legislation apparently. Have a nice day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 19 Sep 13 - 04:46 AM The only reason why I describe my criticism of Dawkins here is that his name is mentioned in the OP. I agree that there are other dangers to society and intellectual integrity, many of them worse. Tickling believers' insecurities: Tickling religious communities can have a healthy effect, if a genuine discussion arises. However, many will react by spitefully closing ranks, further inhibiting self-reflexion, and styling themselves as heroes or martyrs. Some ("militant") atheists may welcome this, hoping that it will then be even easier to expose religion and fight the Final Battle. This strategy is extremely risky, since the ideals of freedom and rationality are likely to be sacrificed in order to defend them. See the history of the "war on Islamic terrorism" for warning signals. Moral compass: It is empirically evident that (self-declared) religious and non-religious people can do acts of altruism and commit crimes. Often all four combinations can be observed in the life of a single person. The question for reasons is extremely difficult, deeply rooted in human nature. Studying this is normally shunned by ideologists, since they feel it would weaken their position. Some of them resort to "divine grace", others to "enlightenment" etc., neither notion explaining anything. Generally, intellectuals tend to overestimate the influence of verbal reflexion on humans, even on "highly intelligent" ones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket curious Date: 19 Sep 13 - 06:09 AM Wow. Final battle and all that. Using the word atheist in the same sentence is a bit like putting sweet old ladies who do the church flowers, suicide bombers, the Dalai Lama and buggering priests as all having the same aims. Really? If you want so called atheists off the backs of religions, they should try engaging with society more. Accepting equality as a reality would do for starters. Seeing religious equality as just that rather than religious privilege. Seeing their womenfolk as equal, stopping judging the sexual preferences of others, stop imposing social restrictions as a stipulation of membership. In ky stride now. Stop covering up paedophilia in the ranks, stop seeing women as chattel, stop circumcision of children, girls and boys, stop bombing abortion clinics, stop telling impressionable people to stop taking life saving drugs and pray instead. Stop telling the authorities you answer to a higher cause, stop having an aim of creating a theocracy. Stop throwing acid in the eyes of people with a different take on life to you. After all, all religious people are religious. Some more militant than others eh? Oh. And stop trying to teach children that medieval fantasy has equal billing with scientific reality. You can do that tomorrow. Those who claim to be religious but allow creationist views out in their name are just as guilty. Right. Coffee, sort out the budget for the next quarter and go and shag a stoat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:50 AM The trouble with having a "genuine discussion" is that such a thing would be acceptable to religion only when engaged in on its terms. The very word "atheist" immediately shifts us on to their territory. What price genuine discussion then? Religion doesn't want genuine discussion with people not of their faith, as has been abundantly proven down the years. Religion wants itself to be humanity's default. The upfront attacks on organised religions we see today, predicated as they are on rationality, not militancy, are healthy, long overdue, and should scare no-one of faith who enjoys genuine intellectual security therein. By fretting about "militant atheists" you simply betray that you don't have that security. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,concerened Date: 19 Sep 13 - 08:13 AM I see the usual collection of frauds, poseurs, yeggs, cake eaters and middle of the road liberals with a small "l" are at it again. One would have thought that the clowns shaw, muskrat, wizzjet and the rest of the nomark buffoons on this site would have got fed up with inflicting their half baked crap on us by now. But no!!!! here they come again, stumbling out of the dark with their thumbs stuck firmly up their bums, minds in nuetral and dribbling out of the side of their mouths, whilst mouthing this semi digested nonsense. What really worries me is that these galloots have the vote...mind you they have plenty crayons to scrawl with..that is if they can be bothered . C |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:56 AM I would refer anyone interested to the original thread where the opening poster made no reference whatsoever to Dawkins. I have no idea why this thread was opened when a perfectly valid one was already on the boil. Apart from, maybe, someone wanted to start a more serious discussion than was on the previous without realising that there was no chance that this would ever happen. It is nice to see cornered submitting his usual deep meaningful insights of course and this almost makes the new thread as nonsensical as the first :-) Apart from the fact that he is now repeating himself about crayons, yeggs and cake eaters he is a wonderful narrator. If you ignore the spellings. And the Grammar. And the fact he is a knobhead. He does make you realise that there is always someone worse. Bollards! (The new Bollocks) :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket shagging a stoat Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:59 AM Hang on, be with you in 5 secs, just starting. Ok. Here now. Well hello concerened! Nice to see you back. As you can see, I have other amusement now so you can kindly piss off and take your crayons with you. Keep it up though. The insults were better when you were in love with me and just slagging off the others but never mind... See? You can't have a discussion on this subject because the subject is false flag to begin with, as Steve said. Ps. No room for my thumb, you have to store your crayons somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Stringsinger Date: 19 Sep 13 - 11:10 AM I concede that Steve is right. I was hoping for some enlightenment and I found it mainly in Steve's and Blandiver's posts. I see how religion causes wars, how it works here on Mudcat which is a microcosm of what's happening in the world today. The US is engaged in a religious war and the "god bless America's" ring hollow. In the meantime, this thread has changed no one's mind and has made participants entrenched in their own views. I was hoping for better. I see Franz de Waal's point and Richard Dawkin's point. I don't think waving a banner for "atheism" amounts to much because of the very ambiguity of the term. I think that "Militant Atheism" is a false flag as well since it postulates a mythical idea. I remain open to the possibility that someone can scientifically prove that there is a god but so far there has been only prejudice, defensiveness and no evidence for the existence of any deity. This is also Dawkin's position and I find it rational. I maintain that the original posting of "militant atheism has become a religion" is an attack on non-believers. It was a dogmatic assertion that has had very little real value in a rational discussion on this thread. I regret this because this is an issue that is not going away. Attacks on non-believers has become institutionalized by some branches of all the major religions and instead of deploring this, there has been silence from most religious communities to stop them from happening. There are some outspoken religious reps who do, such as Chris Hedges, formerly of the New York Times. Pope Francis has shown acceptance of non-belief also. But they are rare. Mostly it is those who are outside of the religious net who call attention to the persecution of non-believers such as Aayan Hirsi Ali, Salmon Rushdie, Susan Jacobi and other rational thinkers. Most of the time, attacks on non-believers are ignored or dismissed as "crap" and the major religions are enablers to isolate and persecute. There is a war on ideas, here, that is prevalent throughout the world and it's resolution will be when the smart-assed remarks, vindictive assertions, dismissal of this issue, ridicule, and stubborn clinging to delusional and out-moded ideas subside. There is nothing wrong essentially with anyone having a "faith" or delusion but unfortunately, when it comes down to how it's applied through actions, "the devil is in the details". (Pun intended). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 19 Sep 13 - 12:30 PM we are , of course going over the same old stuff that we debated [or in some cases, throw abuse around] as in past posts. this does include what you say ,stringsinger also, albeit minus the foulmouthing of some. for example providing proof of the existence of God has been often discussed, and it has been generally conceded that "proof" is not available in general. what the discussion really hinges on is where the preponderance of the evidence lies. the traditional argument has ,I think, revolved around cause and effect, ie that everything THAT HAS A BEGINNING must have sufficient cause, and that the coming into being of natural things must have a supernatural cause greater than the things bought into being. this is IMO seen most acutely in the creation/evolution debate. What has atheism to offer to account for first things and first life ? - notwithstanding the unfounded assertion of steve that science is closing in on the problem. should the existence of a creator God be dismissed, unless it be a matter of philosophical objection. as far as dawkins is concerned ,it seems that he refuses to debate creationists lest he lend creationism respectability, while there is plenty of footage where he does tackle creationists that don't have the academic achievement to debate him more effectively. having said that, he wont debate w.l craig either, and he is not a YEC. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Sep 13 - 12:54 PM Did you get the extra strong sellotape I sent, Messiah M? :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,concerened Date: 19 Sep 13 - 03:18 PM Hey!!!!, youse guys really slay me!!! I did have have some hopes for yer man muskrat..but no!! he has joined the rest of you balloons by starting to take me seriously..come on babe ..you was a lot a better when you tried to be patronisingly cynical.. Pete from seven stars link..congratulations!! you have won first prize for the biggest piece of unadulterated crap to ever have appeared on this thread as for gnomeyo.. really!! come on!! I think did even you could do better than "bollards" and " knobhead".. oh! by the way , when you talk about someone being worse.. I did take the liberty of adding " than yourself"? Take a good look at yourself wont you?..Comments about a persons spelling and grammar do not make you big nor does it make you clever... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket gettin Date: 19 Sep 13 - 04:20 PM Sellotape was fine thanks though the passage of time means less required these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:15 PM Comments about a persons spelling and grammar do not make you big nor does it make you clever... Does the handle 'Gnome' not give you any indication any phrase about 'big' is pretty much wasted? Rather like you I guess, Conc me owd lad. As for clever. Well, probably not, but far more original than crayons, thumbs up yer bums and cake eaters don't you think? Those are getting rather tedious I'm afraid. 'Than yourself' was implied so I guess you get some marks for spotting the bleedin' obvious but then I had to take them away again for assuming that anyone at all would take you seriously. Sorry, but if you really want that scripture writing position you do need to start to think a bit more laterally. Bolleaux :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Stringsinger Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:43 PM "What has atheism to offer to account for first things and first life ? " Pete, the emphasis on science and cosmology is explained in detail by those who are not of the religious persuasion necessarily. The only thing I can tell you about "atheism" is that is supports the scientific method which has answers for first things and first life. I refer you to Neil deGrasse Tyson for a concise explanation. "as far as dawkins is concerned ,it seems that he refuses to debate creationists" Actually in the past, he has debated creationists. I think he doesn't do it now because the arguments for it are always the same cookie cutter rejoinders. There is no scientific evidence for creationism since it is based on the bible. How can anyone argue realistically about something that is mythological and unscientific? Pete, this "has a beginning" is called in logical circles the "Cosmological Argument". The natural followup on this statement is as follows: There must be something that made the "First Cause". In short, what created a god? Something must have caused a "First Cause". I advocate that humans created the notion of a god. Science is now investigating the "Big Bang" theory and that there may have been quantum organisms in the "nothingness" that started the advent of physical matter. We don't know all the details as of yet but there is a lot of scientific information that bears scrutiny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM I remain open to the possibility that someone can scientifically prove that there is a god but so far there has been only prejudice, defensiveness and no evidence for the existence of any deity. This is also Dawkin's position and I find it rational. That is absolutely right. I could add, cynically, that the possibility is exceptionally remote, but the fact that I accept the possibility at all places me, on the rational level, high above those people of faith who are so steeped in their unjustifiable certainties. As for fingers/thumbs up own bums, concerened, I think you may be mistaking us for Catholic priests, whose fingers are generally up someone else's bum. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Musket living the dream Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:22 AM Musket taking you seriously? I don't take the Ian writing my crap seriously so don't start getting ideas above your station. Interesting that DtheG pointed out the clue in the name as to physical attributes. Does that make Musket a big bore or endowed with a long shaft? As I had the nickname from an early age, I wouldn't know. .. Hang on, we can ask the stoat. Oh. Perhaps God can put him back together again. Deep and meaningful discussions on the likelihood of a sentient force behind the laws of physics can go stuff themselves. I'm onto more materialist notions today. Collecting my new car later and I am shallow and impressionable enough to be getting excited. Too excited in fact to discuss irrelevant fantasy eh? Pip Pip |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,concerened Date: 20 Sep 13 - 05:31 AM Bring it on you oafs!!!! all you are doing is justifying my belief that you are a collective of stumble-bums and arrogant pseudo academics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Sep 13 - 06:20 AM Bring what on, Conc? Do you really think that you are indulging in genuine debate by any chance? That level of delusion will get you far my friend. Ever thought of taking the cloth? All you need is a firm belief in fantasy and a penchant for strong drink and choir boys. I suspect you have the makings of an arch-bishop at least. Gateaux! :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 20 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM " ...for example providing proof of the existence of God has been often discussed, and it has been generally conceded that "proof" is not available in general." Well, yes. That's it in a nutshell, pete. You and your fellow Creationists can't prove that there is a God - so why should I, or anyone else, believe in Him? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,concerened Date: 20 Sep 13 - 08:33 AM I aint your friend gnomeyo..nor am I a friend to any fraud, con man, self promoter,ginger liberal, gateaux eating galloot, telegraph reading mockers and all their Tory or neo Tory ilk. Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate.. a hell of a lot of people get a lot of spiritual comfort from believing in religion. I have a lot of friends of the cloth, they are not heavy drinkers or molesters of small boys, they like all their clerical friends would take massive objection to your unthinking, unsubstantiated and crass statements You lot, and you in particular gmomo, think mocking peoples beliefs is smart, when really it shows you up for the shallow clowns you really are. So, gnometic, why don't you engage what passes for your mind into gear before you take people like me on.. you really are not in my league. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM Not in your league? How would we know, as you've never actually made a point in any debate? Dave, dunno about his taking the cloth. Most of the time he sounds like he's touching it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:18 AM Nah, sorry Conc, still not getting it. Is it supposed to be an insult or something? If so, it doesn't really work I'm afraid. May help if it made some sort of sense but that is something we can work on together. What you need to do is keep up with the nonsensical statements but improve the presentation so the gullible may start to believe. If you could include it in a story, something like 'on the sixth day God made man', it could catch on. Until then it is still a fail. Sorry :-( BTW - Good to see I am getting to your religious pals. I didn't realise so many people read my posts. How many other friends do you have? Any Welsh sheep-shaggers or French surrender-monkeys? Rowlocks :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Dave the Gnome Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM BTW - Anyone spot the irony? nor am I a friend to any fraud, con man etc. closely followed by I have a lot of friends of the cloth I absolutely love it. You couldn't make this stuff up. Oh, hang on, someone just did. Mmmmmm. :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Stringsinger Date: 20 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM "Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate.. a hell of a lot of people get a lot of spiritual comfort from believing in religion." Yes, they do. But these people are not compassionate when it comes to dealing with those who don't believe in their special religion. Mocking people personally and mocking their belief systems are two different things. I'm not big on mocking much but I certainly see the hypocrisy that so many religious people have in taking offense when it's their religion that's being questioned and giving offense when they attack non-believers and scorn them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,concerenrd Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:07 PM stringsinger..your point is? gnomeio.. your return is up to your usual level of crassness.. you really don't get it do you? shaw...really???!! come on!!! This is really to easy.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Stringsinger Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM Concerened: My point is that you can't expect non-believers to act respectfully to religious people about their religion when non-believers are being persecuted by them for their non-beliefs. It's a two-way street. If religious people want respect for their religion, they have to show by their behavior that they are worthy of it. I kinda' like this Pope Francis because he says that non-believers are O.K. if they are good people. In other words, you don't have to believe in god to be good. This is a radical idea among religious believers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Sep 13 - 04:17 PM Yes, OK, Conc me old pal. I know it is hard to believe at the moment but believe me, when you have grown up, you will realise that I have helped you immensely. You may think that you know where it is at (man) but you don't. It isn't there at all. It is somewhere else. Cycle locks. :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 21 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM ""Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate.."" Priceless comment from the least compassionate poster ever on this forum, who posts solely and specifically to mock. To call this one small minded would be an undeserved compliment. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 21 Sep 13 - 06:14 PM as you infer, conc, that you should,nt be taken seriously, I shall take your words to me in the same spirit! quantum....stringsinger?.heavy stuff. I hear that no-one really understands it. all I know about it is that particles[?] inside atoms appear to be alternately visible and then invisible. assuming I am sort of right in that ,I would suppose that some atheists assume that something was preceded by absolutely nothing making a quantum jump.....just thinking out print. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM Never assume anything, pete. Especially that you ase right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM Pete, from what I hear on TV and blogs, Neil deGrasse Tyson and others have questioned whether what we think of as "nothing" is really void of everything that is capable of growing into something. I really don't know too much as to what I'm talking about but I'm picking up on an idea that has been described. What is the nature of "nothing"? The philosophical problem is that if a god were the First Cause, then would it not be fair to postulate that something else caused the First Cause making it the Second Cause? That's the Cosmological Argument as I understand it. Quantum mechanics also seems to take issue with the Teleological Argument that somehow everything was made perfect by a god, the basis of the book "The Blind Watchmaker" by Dawkins which assumes that using the analogy of the air liner, some one idea made that perfection happen. It of course was man made and some would argue that it wasn't perfect. There are flies in the Evolutionary ointment as well with such creatures as the lungfish, who was a transition from amphibian to terrestrial life, a complete "flop" as it were being neither good at sea or on land. When the so-called perfection of a bacteria was used as evidence to suggest that a god made it because it was so self-contained, it was revealed that it had antecedents that were less so and were a part of its development, in the Kitzmiller vrs. Dover, Pennsylvania case defending "creationism". There was a dramatic moment in which the "perfection" of this bacteria, which was said to be self-contained in its perfection was shown to be a part of an evolutionary process disclosed by a number of scientific books dumped on the table of the creationist lawyers. Hence, perfection was relative. The so-called grand design has peculiarities which could be called flaws if it were done by a supreme engineer. |