BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 07:48 PM

".., but this is clearly not his work."

C'mon Steve... except for using capital letters, it reads very much like Pete. He got some of his defenses elsewhere... but he didn't C&P it.

Sheesh... sometimes it's hard to be on the same side as you!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 06:10 PM

Welcome back to the debate, bill. Your saying that science and creationism are two different things would be likened saying science and evolutionism are two different things. It just depends on which side of the debate you are on. Your description of how faith is defined, perfectly fits the belief in all from nothing via no one story. There is no evidence for it.   Therefore I don't see that I used equivocation,....except that atheists have greater faith, because they reject intelligent agency!    Seems to me that you are the one equivocating since you bait and switch operative science with origins science.    You can test a flame by burning your finger, but you can't test the past. All you got is what remains to the present...which may be variously interpreted, and a scientists presuppositions, and inculturation among other things may colour the conclusions arrived at by considering the data.    We could also make conclusion about the past based on how things work in the present. For example no one doubts that if they found a watch....thank you paley...on the ground, that there was a designer and watchmaker. That would not change, even if the timepiece had become faulty or even broken.   I read that one of the DNA discoverers said that .....you should not let the appearance of design make you think it was.........or words to that effect.    A good example of not letting the evidence get in the way of atheist presuppositions. All the time though those creationists have no evidence or scientific reasoning!!!!

Dearie me. Our pete may well have posted this, but this is clearly not his work. Dishonest to himself, dishonest with us. I did try to tell y'all...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 05:16 PM

Pete-It's hard to explain to you exactly why your explanation & definitions have problems. All I can say is that you DO break some basic rules in logic, reasoning and use of terminology. Even IF your basic beliefs about religion were true, you can't defend them reasonably that way..... which is one of my basic points. What you choose to **believe** in not subject to standard logic, proof or reason. You can be internally consistent starting from your premises, but the premises themselves must first be accepted.
The events written about in the Bible and the interpretation of them are only vaguely and partially subject to confirmation..... but even this contradicts your assertation that "... you can't test the past." Because SOME Biblical sites, people and events do conform with historical records and archeology has found some of the places mentioned, it shows that the past can be verified and understood to some extent. Just digging up an old beer bottle in your your yard tells you something!

And.... "...you bait and switch operative science with origins science". That is a very good example of shaky definition ... there is no such divide. There is either good science or bad science.... the scientific method is a specific way of looking at the world, and it takes lots of time and careful attention to detail to both understand it and to practice it.

   And... the 'watchmaker' metaphor is famous as a fallacious argument.
Paley directly confronted If you get all your background FROM creationist sites, you miss many, many years of explanations of just what is being discussed. (I'll confess that *I* had forgotten where the watchmaker metaphor cam from... but it was about the 3rd hit when I searched for it)

Pete.. belief is one thing. No one can tell you not to... but you MUST stay aware of the reason we use 'believe' instead of 'know'.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 02:50 PM

science and creationism are two different things would be likened saying science and evolutionism[sic] are two different things.

Bullshit.


"By what route do otherwise sane men come to believe such palpable nonsense? How is it possible for a human brain to be divided into two insulated halves, one functioning normally, naturally and even brilliantly, and the other capable only of such ghastly balderdash which issues from the minds of Baptist evangelists? Such balderdash takes various forms, but it is at its worst when it is religious. Why should this be so? What is there in religion that completely flabbergasts the wits of those who believe in it? I see no logical necessity for that flabbergasting. Religion, after all, is nothing but an hypothesis framed to account for what is evidentially unaccounted for. In other fields such hypotheses are common, and yet they do no apparent damage to those who incline to them. But in the religious field they quickly rush the believer to the intellectual Bad Lands. He not only becomes anaesthetic to objective fact; he becomes a violent enemy of objective fact. It annoys and irritates him. He sweeps it away as something somehow evil."

       H. L. Mencken, The American Mercury (February 1926)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 02:36 PM

Welcome back to the debate, bill. Your saying that science and creationism are two different things would be likened saying science and evolutionism are two different things. It just depends on which side of the debate you are on. Your description of how faith is defined, perfectly fits the belief in all from nothing via no one story. There is no evidence for it.   Therefore I don't see that I used equivocation,....except that atheists have greater faith, because they reject intelligent agency!    Seems to me that you are the one equivocating since you bait and switch operative science with origins science.    You can test a flame by burning your finger, but you can't test the past. All you got is what remains to the present...which may be variously interpreted, and a scientists presuppositions, and inculturation among other things may colour the conclusions arrived at by considering the data.    We could also make conclusion about the past based on how things work in the present. For example no one doubts that if they found a watch....thank you paley...on the ground, that there was a designer and watchmaker. That would not change, even if the timepiece had become faulty or even broken.   I read that one of the DNA discoverers said that .....you should not let the appearance of design make you think it was.........or words to that effect.    A good example of not letting the evidence get in the way of atheist presuppositions. All the time though those creationists have no evidence or scientific reasoning!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 02:00 PM

I thought HE was supporting ME. I made some comments and he agreed with some of them.

I don't generally proceed by 'supporting' individuals... I just look at data & information and try to gain some insight. Sometimes my opinion is similar to another's.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 01:19 PM

Ian....Do you understand what you are saying.
"Only 33% of new HIV infections come from MSM"!!
Under 2% of the population account for 33% of HIV infections....ONLY???

That must be about the most stupid statement I ever read and it says a lot about you and those who support you. You really want to make people believe that there is NO epidemic amongst MSM don't you Ian, you should be ashamed of yourself....I hope that you have really given up any input into health matters.
The true figures for new infections are 53% in the UK and 63% in the US
When you limit the figure to men.....MSM present 78% of new infections in the US.

You are also lying again,
the 33% which you quote is for estimated undiagnosed infections.

I don't know how you can come on here night after night lying and obfuscating you make yourself look not only a fool, but someone unworthy of this forum.

Truth is imperative if you are to be taken seriously.
Rather surprised that you support this person Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM

page 8
"While overall trends show a decline in new HIV diagnoses
since 2005 (7,930) (Figure 2), this is largely due to a decrease in the number of diagnoses
reported among heterosexuals born in countries with high HIV prevalence"

page 11
"Over the last decade (up to Dec.20120), the number of
new diagnoses among heterosexuals declined in England, especially in London."

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 12:59 PM

The paper makes (reasonable) assumptions based on historical infection rates,
No.
It gives firm conclusions based on the definitive figures.
Denying that fact again just makes you more ridiculous.
You can not show us one thing that contradicts it.
You fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 12:47 PM

The paper makes (reasonable) assumptions based on historical infection rates, gormless fool. A more realistic picture of unmet need uses contributing factors and evidence, such as I gave as examples. Plenty out there without having to believe those working in health. You can always find a newspaper hack for instance. I recommend Daily M*il. They will even tell you which types of homosexuals cause cancer and which protect you from it.

You don't make yourself look clever purposely misinterpreting what people are saying. If you can't understand my point, what chance to have with the information you insist on repeating without any chance of understanding?

If you don't understand, don't use it as a tool. If you do understand, stop using it falsely to further a suspect agenda.




Oy, co Messiah and equal Messiah status gnome!   Is there room in the true path for a wall? My list needs one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM

the one Keith waves at us, have only historical data to go on,

You have future data muppet?
That is clever of you.
The HPE report had data up to December 2012, and showed trends over the decade.
The trend is MSM infections rising, others falling.

If you have anything more recent that contradicts that, show us.

You will not because you can not.
You are indeed just a ridiculous fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 11:36 AM

Bill, I have no "pre-formed attitude."
I just think accuracy is important.
Your report stated "young MSM are the only risk group in which new infections are increasing."

That means heteros and other groups are NOT increasing.

Musket, what can you produce to show hetero infections are not falling, as you stated.
If the answer is not one single thing, then tell us why you are not a ridiculous fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 11:14 AM

So do I Bill. But whilst ever bigots have access to the internet, I just can't stop myself challenging those who seek to twist information to suit their odious agenda.

In The UK, during Prime Minister's question time, there is a tradition which requires the PM to say "I refer the honourable member to the answer I gave earlier." Snag is, there is nothing honourable in The pre formed attitudes of two Mudcat members, at least one of which occasionally shows enough intelligence to know better.

The situation over here isn't much different Bill, in reality. Younger people are a hard to reach group and feel, as with most sexual disease, that they are invincible, and that now antiretroviral drugs are available that it is no different to a course of antibiotics for an itchy cock. Infections have gone down over the years in incidence per 100,000 population but not fast enough. The potential for MSM is high but reports, including the one Keith waves at us, have only historical data to go on, whilst meta analysis trawling information from other clinical specialties, especially emergency acute and colo rectal indicate a rising uptake in unsafe sex, especially anal sex, in younger women. This is being factored into specialised commissioning, (the government NHS system provides 99% of sexual health funding in this respect) and those working in the field see the proration balance working towards heterosexual infections, with actual numbers of new cases falling as the present screening programme goes beyond its peak.

A fascinating subject at an academic level, but awful that it is part of this debate, as it merely shows the lengths bigots and so called Christian concern will go to demonise sections of society for their own prejudice. They can't even claim more than 33% of HIV out there is from gay sex, yet wish to round them up, whilst not giving a shit about the other 67%. It's as awful as it is wicked.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM

"Bill provided evidence for the same trend in US."

That is NOT what my link shows. It shows that the overall **RATE** of infections has slowed, but that young folks are still a demographic to be concerned with.

I grow pretty weary of oversimplifying and 'interpreting' studies to suit a pre-formed attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 09:07 AM

The report said that hetero infections are falling, and MSM infections rising in UK.
Bill provided evidence for the same trend in US.

You stated the opposite with absolutely nothing but your own bluster to substantiate it.

So Musket, what can you produce to show hetero infections are not falling.
If the answer is not one single thing, then tell us why you are not a ridiculous fool.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 08:54 AM

Correct. They haven't been updated. They might but the revisions are forwarded to them for people to use in their modelling. If you have an Athens account, you can get at the web link I supplied.

Once redundant returns and FCE corrections are forwarded, a decision is made as to whether the figures expressed in terms of a range fall within that tolerance or not.

It isn't anything to do with sexual health, it's to do with health. The report you keep waving is based on best figures available and, crucially, figures that HPA have used to keep reporting fresh. That does not make them the full picture.

I understand that although Keith is trying to cover his false assertions, to anyone else, you only have me (and public health professionals) to go by. Let me give a sexual health example;

Someone attends a sexual health clinic. There is allowance for anonymous attending and results do not go to your GP unless you agree. Someone tests positive and goes into denial for a few weeks them presents to their GP. This is coded twice and the data trawl used for such as that report shows two diagnoses.

Now... Be buggered to paying twice so when the financial transactions within NHS are sorted the figures alter. Not just double diagnosis bit lots of other items that skew figures. This takes time, more than it should and the new body Public Health England hopes to address this by coordinating the consultants engaged in commissioning. Other parts of The UK are in similar situations going forward.

Im putting that for the interest of others , not Keith A of Hertford. Either he knows it already as it underpins the websites he trawls for the sake of an argument or you can't educate pork. Either could apply.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 07:04 AM

"Funny how those with scientific training that are committed to evolutionism, do not see that they defend a story, which though they are willing to change when they are forced to by weight of evidence in details ,are unwilling to abandon the paradigm. "

I'm not trained, but I am training now.

Pete, you're simply not getting the whole thing mate. I'm not "forced" to change my mind by new evidence, I question the existing evidence and seek new to find the truth.

You have zero proof the Bible is a historical document. For a person to take every work as literal is astonishing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM

If those PHE figs for 2012 have been updated, give us something other than your assurance that you are being honest this time.

They are the definitive figures.
They have not been updated.
They contradict what you say and you will claim anything rather than admit you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 04:57 AM

Thanks Keith!

We can now dispense with the services of 700+ consultants in public health. As these are well paid consultant doctors , the savings to The NHS (and local government as they take on the public health agenda) will be huge. Think of all the support staff, never mind the surveillance role of health visitors.

Stop referring to an excellent annual précis as being the government view. It is used in conjunction with other data for commissioning and planning of services and revised versions eventually inform ONS and WHO.

I used this as an example of your "teacher said so" approach to anything and everything. One reason why we depend do much on analysing health statistics from myriad angles is that it can only be guidance. Updated historical returns are fed almost daily. The HIV update I gave last month for that period gas already been revised twice by PHE, let alone local data for the budgeting bun fights starting next week.

Prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 14 - 04:38 AM

regarding healthcare statistics, where reports are written ahead of verified data but such data is always available for research

The report I used was the PHE report on the 2012 figures, up to December 2012, published November 2013.

The ARE the definitive figures.
Denying that is lying.
If it is not a lie, show us one quote that says otherwise.
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 01:40 PM

Pete: " You claim scientific impartiality but your commitment to naturalistic origins amounts to the same thing...a position held by faith.   "

As I have mentioned before, the two positions - science & creationism - are two entirely different systems of determining truth & facts and defining evidence.
When you call a commitment to scientific inquiry 'faith', you are committing the fallacy of "equivocation".... that is, using 'faith' in two different senses. 'Faith' that science works could just be called 'confidence' or 'awareness' ... based on a logical system of testing, refining and constantly re-evaluating data. When you see a flame, you do not have 'faith' that it will burn your fingers.... you know that fire is hot. We can describe the process, measure the intensity, control the effects and predict it's actions.
Faith simply MEANS (or should be generally limited to meaning) a belief that cannot be directly tested and verified. The language exists to clarify different senses of how we think and to explicate carefully what we wish to convey. Slippery use of nomenclature to support your views is often called 'rhetorical language'. (You recognize it when a politician or an advertisement makes sneaky claims & promises.)
   When an advertisement tells you wonderful things, you are usually well advised to doubt & be skeptical... but ads can usually BE tested. Faith in something that cannot be tested & verified also causes doubt.. and you and I (and most others here) treat untestable assertions differently. ...I suppose it will always be so...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 11:37 AM

Yes, there are many people with a view on the happiness of others. Their large numbers doesn't give them respectability. If people consider the legal rights of others is wrong, I suggest they deal with their problem. The democratic rights of all preclude their view having any influence on decent people, at long last.

Why do you still put the word marriage in parentheses ? What has sex to do with being gay?



See? I am addressing the worm direct. Ok, I'm about to shower anyway but still.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jan 14 - 04:06 AM

Troubadour, You are not making sense.

"Liar! The question you were asked by a number of members was "If a vaccine were found to eradicate HIV/AIDS, would your objections cease"


My objections to what?.....If you mean objections to homosexuality that does not make sense, as one cannot object to something which is a fact of life. There are people who practice same gender sex and there always will be, what I am saying is that we should not be legislating in favour of this practice while the present rates of sexual disease apply to it. This legislation also applies to the redefinition of marriage to the detriment of a very large number of committed Christians, who believe homosexuality to be a sin.

I distinctly remember the question you cite, and it was definitely applied to my stance on homosexual "marriage".

Are you Ian's anonymous friend? You are coming across as slightly deranged and your writing style fits the profile I had in mind.
Better watch out.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:35 PM

evolutionism

Sorry, Pete- there is no such thing.

Nor is there any "evidence" for creationist bullshit.

You want to believe fairytales, that's OK - just keep 'em to yourself & don't plague others with 'em.

I suppopse you have problems with the Theory of Gravity as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:30 PM

"The question that I am often asked is "If there was no STD epidemic amongst homosexuals, would you still be opposed to gay marriage?"

Liar! The question you were asked by a number of members was "If a vaccine were found to eradicate HIV/AIDS, would your objections cease"

Your answer"There are other considerations".

This was specific to HIV among MSMs, and not any other STD.

If you persist, I will post examples from other threads to prove you a lying bigot!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:17 PM

"One day, perhaps, they'll both be sainted, maybe on the same day as Mother Teresa. Are you a Catholic, though, ake?"

No Mr Shaw, as far as I can make out, he's an Atheist because God made the mistake of trying to tell him how he ought to behave toward his fellow man.

A mistake repeated by (among others) yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 05:00 PM

Funny how those with scientific training that are committed to evolutionism, do not see that they defend a story, which though they are willing to change when they are forced to by weight of evidence in details ,are unwilling to abandon the paradigm. If ,stu, you were so committed to following the evidence, I doubt you would be so derogatory about those with alternative ideas. I also think that you would admit that there is no evidence for the all from nout via no one storytelling.   You could ,of course, counter that revelation is no evidence for the secularist. I admit to my presupposition, that the bible account in genesis is historical. You claim scientific impartiality but your commitment to naturalistic origins amounts to the same thing...a position held by faith.                               Likewise wishing all the best to everyone here the best for 2014.    Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:12 PM

Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't.

Yes it is.
See PHE figures for UK and also Bill's piece for US.
You were wrong yet again.

Which "tabloids" did Hastings edit Musket?
Is the answer, none?
Wrong yet again Musket, you ignorant person.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 12:01 PM

I would say approximately 100% of published papers in BMJ use HPA figures, at a rough arsed guess.

Without official figures, there would be little point in researching the validity of source, analysis or effect. Or in other words, the rationale for publishing research in the first place. Most BMJ published papers are by medics, but some are authored or go authored by those designing transformational redesign. Keep going twat. I can't wait for you to throw one I co wrote in my face. Both developing of community services and screening criteria have my " lies " published and being used in service redesign , to think of two papers that would encompass sexual health.

I've got bad news for you. If we just used PHE or HPA and took them as definitive, we'd save millions but kill more patients by poor planning. Read the Ladybird Book of healthcare commissioning before making stupid ignorant comments such as " definitive" or asking that I be believed instead when if you read what I put, I haven't disagreed with any of it, merely explained that it isn't used in isolation and that predictions, indeed collected figures , are as good as the terms of reference for the data.

Funny how you cling to anything that supports your opinion and it must be true because teacher said so. I see how you are comfortable as a Christian now.

Do you think Max Hastings could write a book on healthcare? He wrote enough horseshit about it when he edited tabloids.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:51 AM

Here is a BMJ paper.
It uses HPA report as a source of data.
http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f7024

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:50 AM

Here we are again....nearly into 2014 and the usual collection of yeggs, gobshites, pseudo nonintellectual posers are still stumbling about in the wilderness mouthing their half formed and worst understood platitudes.

Headed by the deranged gnome they come stumbling out of the mist,eyes glazed from self abuse, dribbling from the corners of their mouths, shitty crayons dropping out of their undercrackers... saying over and over again; " we are the chosen ones, we are the ones who know everything about religion, politics and sexual orientation"

Whilst in reality they know as much about it all as my arse knows about snipe shooting.

Oh.. happy new year to you all..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:27 AM


Papers published in The BMJ suggest the heterosexual HIV situation is higher than figures derived from screening portray.

I predict with certainty that you can not produce any such.
You made it up.
The PHE figures are the official, definitive figures.
Do not expect us to disbelieve PHE and believe you instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 07:09 AM

Well done, Keith. I think your own religion must be one of the good ones then and as I have always said, I am happy for people to believe what they like as long as they do not try to push it on me or pass it off as science to innocent children.

Ake. You are getting closer but still not told us what you propose. either regulate their sexual activity, or be regulated. How do you propose they are to 'be regulated'? Are you not getting fed up of hinting and implying without actually saying what you propose should be done?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:28 AM

Stu. Your default position, which you hold religiously, to the point of bad mouthing your positions detractors , is that only naturalistic causes are allowable. This is not provable, and infact the argument from design, and the large lack of evidence for the all from nothing via no one alternative origins story, is a good argument for a creator ."

No - my position, like my research is totally open to to question, and therefore cannot be a religious view.

I'm quite afraid of religious extremists, literalists and fundamentalists. The people who take everything as read and seek to impose their views on others regardless of whether those people agree or not. Deniers of free thought and personal freedom, who rely in falsehoods, aggression and intimidation to oppress others in spirit and body, especially women. See: Creationists.

Naturalistic causes? God is not 'natural'? You might be onto something there Pete old love.

Finally, you would't know the scientific method if you saw it Your last sentence is typically garbled, but I think I get the gist. You cannot preach to me about evidence as you really don't know what you're talking about, and in the long journey that has been this thread have made no effort to do so. A shame really, because you're missing so much.

Happy New Year to everyone on this thread! It's been a real learning experience, and that's no bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 06:25 AM

We heard you first time worm. It didn't make sense then either.

Amazing how one report, without the final figures released yet by the NHS CSUs, is Leapt upon as being as faith inducing as the bible.

Papers published in The BMJ suggest the heterosexual HIV situation is higher than figures derived from screening portray. No surprise as co morbidity and Presentation (FCE if you wish to look it up) are seemingly similar to other health intervention figures.

Luckily, those who provide sexual health services rely on myriad intelligence in system design. They also put the gay risk in perspective.

Lovely that Keith A Hole of Hertford doesn't recognise his church in Daves's link. If you have to use it as a test rather than laugh at the whole, you must be someone who tries to distinguish which baked bean caused you to fart.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 04:36 AM

Dave, Steve, and Bill....The health agencies have been pushing "education" since the 1980's....and it seems to be working....for every demographic but MSM, because MSM is the only demographic within which new infection rates for all STD's are rising.
Does this mean that male homosexuals are more stupid than any other section of society? I don't think so, is it perhaps that male homosexuals are more deeply addicted to "risk taking",more addicted to anonymous sex, multiple sexual partners? ...probably.
The time has come for male homosexuals to take responsibility for their behaviour, either regulate their sexual activity, or be regulated.
How long do you propose to wait before some meaningful action is taken on the situation? Another three years at the present rising rates of infection and we will be seeing MSM HIV rates at over 90%.
Will you still be sticking your heads in the sand?

Bill of course young homosexuals are the section most affected, they are the section most sexually active.

No matter how much you twist and turn, the incontrovertible truth is that in the US and UK the demographic which is massively over represented in all Sexually transmitted disease is MSM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 04:36 AM

Dave, Steve, and Bill....The health agencies have been pushing "education" since the 1980's....and it seems to be working....for every demographic but MSM, because MSM is the only demographic within which new infection rates for all STD's are rising.
Does this mean that male homosexuals are more stupid than any other section of society? I don't think so, is it perhaps that male homosexuals are more deeply addicted to "risk taking",more addicted to anonymous sex, multiple sexual partners? ...probably.
The time has come for male homosexuals to take responsibility for their behaviour, either regulate their sexual activity, or be regulated.
How long do you propose to wait before some meaningful action is taken on the situation? Another three years at the present rising rates of infection and we will be seeing MSM HIV rates at over 90%.
Will you still be sticking your heads in the sand?

Bill of course young homosexuals are the section most affected, they are the section most sexually active.

No matter how much you twist and turn, the incontrovertible truth is that in the US and UK the demographic which is massively over represented in all Sexually transmitted disease is MSM

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:53 AM

Dave I answered, honestly, "no" to every question.
Does that mean I pass, or the dear old CofE did?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:46 AM

The link again. Page 11
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM

Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't.

No!
HPE says it, and see also Bill's link.

HPE November sme link.
"Over the last decade, the number of
new diagnoses among heterosexuals declined in England, especially in London. In 2012,
numbers were highest in London (1,020; 35%) followed by the PHE regions Midlands and the
East of England (590) and the North (400) and South of England (370).
d
In Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland, the numbers of new diagnoses acquired heterosexually were lower, with
110, 50 and 40, respectively (Figure 5).

In 2012, a higher number of heterosexual women (1,530) than men (1,050) were newly
diagnosed with HIV. The median age of diagnosis was 39 years overall; 42 years among men
and 37 years among women.

The proportion of new diagnoses that were recently acquired HIV infections was 6% (30/440)
among heterosexual men and 8% (50/640) among women."

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 31 Dec 13 - 01:19 AM

Who am I to judge?

Oh.... Hang on. I'm a co messiah. I'm supposed to judge.

Or at least, like other Messiahs, have others do the judging in my name.

I suppose we can do it as part of our New Years Honours list ?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 08:07 PM

Brilliant stuff, Dave, brilliant. Musket, is there room for a third equi-Messiah? Christian bastards have a "trinity" after all...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 07:59 PM

Thank you Bill for pointing out the crucial role of education. When I pointed this out to tunnel-vision ake some months ago I was ridiculed. I concluded, privately, that ake considers education to be a potential inconvenient impediment to his homophobic message. Ake needs high infection rates just like the Pope needs high abortion rates. Ake and the Pope are the champions of continuing misery. One day, perhaps, they'll both be sainted, maybe on the same day as Mother Teresa. Are you a Catholic, though, ake?

As for this:

phoney equality agenda

I'd love ake to expand on what this is supposed to mean. Or maybe I wouldn't. Sad bugger.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:57 PM

oh my, Dave... that set of cartoons ought to be made into little books and given away on street corners.. right beside the guy waving the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:47 PM

meanwhile...

Back to religion

Some bits fit well with the current debate too

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM

It is not my job to work out how the agencies target the demographic which contains 78% of new male HIV infections, but it will have to be done and soon.


No, it isn't. So why keep harping on about it? And you STILL haven't given us your proposals on how to 'halt the transmission of the disease'. Why?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM

"read to the end of the text"

I did:


"young MSM are the only risk group in which new infections are increasing. This underscores the need to sustain and re-invigorate prevention efforts "

As I said before, science & education must continue. Just as education among young people about ALL sex related issues from birth control to disease must continue.
The problem will not go away unless & until some medical cure (like vaccination) is discovered.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:15 PM

It is an issue. 45% of transmission is from heterosexual sex, 33% from gay sex.

It is a sex issue. (It's a needlestick issue, a birth issue and a healthcare acquired issue too, but 78% of it is sexually transmitted.)

That is figures derived from trend. The providers working on the ground feel it is far higher and The Royal College of Obstetricians and gynaecologists report that STDs from promiscuous lifestyle in women is the worrying sexual health area of concern at present. Keith says heterosexual transmission is falling but it isn't. The trend is based on apples and pears. The overtaking of gay transmission in 2011 is acknowledged as being possibly down to people coming forward for screening. The report acknowledges this, but papers I have read in BMJ show through Cochrane reviews that The NHS is right to concentrate on encouraging heterosexual high risk groups to come forward.

The only compulsion is to drag Akenhateon in to see if he has been having unprotected anal sex with prostitutes, as he can't be trusted to come forward for screening otherwise. If he disagrees, he also therefore must disagree with gay people being treated the same?

What is the difference between him and a gay person? What is the difference between a gay person and me? I know the difference between him and everyone else. Respectability.

Disgusting bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:14 PM

Read to the end of the text.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:02 PM

30 seconds of searching

USA Center for Disease Control:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/HIVFactSheets/Progress/Trends.htm

from that link: (my bold & underlining)

"The nation's investment in HIV prevention has contributed to dramatic reductions in the annual number of new infections since the peak of the epidemic in the mid-1980s, and an overall stabilization of new infections since the mid-1990s (from roughly 130,000 new infections to approximately 50,000 annually).7,8 While new infections per year continue at too high a level, this stabilization is in itself a sign of progress. With continued increases in the number of people living with HIV thanks to effective HIV medications, there are more opportunities for HIV transmission than ever before.9 Yet, the annual number of new infections has not increased, indicating that HIV testing, prevention, and treatment programs are effectively reducing the rate of transmission overall. Declines in new infections have also been documented in several key populations over time, underscoring the impact and importance of concentrated prevention efforts: