BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:48 AM

"a- it requires some sort of naturalistic miracle without a miracle maker!"

Huh? That's not science, it's a creationist statement. Show me a single peer-reviewed paper that says any natural process (including evolution) requires a "naturalistic miracle", whatever one of those actually is.


"b- things like easily degrading materials still being present, that ought to be long gone if really MYO."


Righto, apart from the rather ambiguous phrase "things like easily degrading materials" which lacks any specific reference to whatever you're talking about, this statement seems to demonstrate a continued lack of understanding of the whole concept of science.

Who says they should be gone? You? Me? If by careful testing, confirmation and peer review we learn they're still present then we can assume they're not as easily degradable as we thought. There y'go - something learnt. Science in action.

I don't know for certain whose work you're referring to here, but think I can guess and this is an old Creationist trope that misunderstands what is a reasonably contentious hypothesis. Thing is, this Creationist nonsense makes the science sound far less interesting than it actually actually is. The testing of hypothesis often throws up new discoveries that lead to greater understanding and progress. It's all good.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:03 PM

that was lot ,musket, seduced by his daughters who were worried about not getting husbands.
many of the bible ancient copies are still around though some are "long gone".

shimrod- have you got a past-oscope that demonstrates that the correct assumptions were made to interprete these methods.
and I just love it when a modern formed rock tests at being MYO!
BUT OF COURSE YOU CAN ALWAYS CLAIM CONTAMINATION!

The most recent and spectacular examples would be the assorted soft tissue finds in dino bones. no one believed it could last millennia ,stu, [less you can quote otherwise] till it was admitted that it really was in the bones.
so now you say it demonstrates it can last that long!
it all goes to show IMO that evolutionism cant be falsified - you just move the goal posts!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM

" ... I just love it when a modern formed rock tests at being MYO!"

pete, what, pray (pun intended) is a "modern formed rock". And are you really implying that reputable scientists deliberately falsify results in order to - what? - discredit the Bible?? And do their peers really let them get away with it?

I suspect that many reputable scientists couldn't give a toss about the Bible. And I also suspect that most of those scientists who claim to have religious faith don't believe that biblical accounts of creation represent absolute truth - as you seem to do.

As for soft tissue in fossils, as Stu says, if such tissues have been found, they represent interesting discoveries. A scientist would definitely not conclude: "Soft tissues shouldn't exist in fossils, thus the theory of evolution is wrong and the biblical account of Creation must be true!" Such a conclusion makes no logical sense whatsoever!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM

"The most recent and spectacular examples would be the assorted soft tissue finds in dino bones. no one believed it could last millennia ,stu, [less you can quote otherwise] till it was admitted that it really was in the bones.
so now you say it demonstrates it can last that long!
it all goes to show IMO that evolutionism cant be falsified - you just move the goal posts!"

You have to understand there ARE NO GOAL POSTS, that's not what science is about, we do not deal in absolutes (in my experience, only fools do). This is a learning process for us all, and although no-one believed intact soft tissue could survive such a long period of time, no-one would have ruled it out with evidence one way or another. Now we are finding evidence.

The work is by Mary Schweitzer, and I've seen a couple of her talks (and talks taking an opposing view) regarding the preservation of soft tissues in a T. rex limb bone.

If Schweitzer's findings are borne out then we move on, that's how science works. Also, palaeontology is using a range of cross-disciplinary techniques to study ancient life, including the discovery of the preservation of structural colours in feathers that tell us what dinosaurs looked like in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:38 AM

White rabbits!! new month but the same self indulgent tripe/shite being spouted by cameron,gnomet, muskrat, osbourne, shaw, millibland, pete from his own little galaxy et all

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:55 AM

Eeeee, you are a breath of fresh air, Conc pal. Anyone with no idea of the irony of complaining for the umpteenth time that people are being self indulgent and talking the same tripe has to be OK by me :-) The only difference is, I suppose, that whereas most of of us know we are talking bollocks you seem to think it is serious.

Out of interest, self indulgent is fine. In the words of Ricky Nelson, "You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself." And no, it doesn't mean what you think... Tripe is good too. As is liver. I have eaten both in the last couple of weeks.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:26 AM

Tripe ? why ? it's feckin tasteless Dave.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

Tasteless? Nah, not much I grant but it does have a flavour. I must say though the uncooked kind benefits from vinegar and black pepper and if heated I do tend to do it in a flavoured white sauce - Usualy involving chiles!

Now, if you were to say I was tasteless I couldn't argue at all :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

Just out of interest, pete, where does all the stuff you spout come from? Is any of it from reputable scientists - or is it just regurgitated from the collected works of the Rev. Dr. Teaparty Redneck of the Fundamentalist University of Hicksville, Alabama?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:30 PM

Tripe? tasteless? hanson you must be a goddamn southerner.Tripe and onions that superb English soul food was, as everyone knows, invented in Yorkshire.

It can also be enjoyed in its bleached state cold with a little vinegar, white pepper and a tad of salt.Also it is known to be deep fried in batter.

When I was working as a master chef in Paris, I invented a tripe dish that contained cream, white wine and fresh lobster.

Michael Boccacini, that other great chef invented a lovely cassoulet using tripe.

It goes without saying that you are tasteless gnomet..anyone putting chiles in tripe has to be.Black pepper.. philistine!

gnomet, small man syndrome wouldn't you say folks?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Hasa Diga Ebowai.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 02:38 PM

You are just genius, Conc. A woman and a chef! You MUST join the Holy Trinity. When Messiah M gets back we will put it to the vote. You would be just perfect for making the tea at the bingo sessions.

I must admit to coming from t'other side o't'pennines where we do have multiple condiments to experiment with. But I can't say too much coz I have just emigrated to North Yorkshire where I am on a mission to teach the locals how to serve black peas. (Vinegar, salt and white pepper) and make proper black puddings.

No syndrome here BTW. I just am a small man. Just as you do not have an inferiority complex:-)

Hakuna Matata

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:04 PM

yes shimrod- my information does come from fully qualified scientists.
I know you might have been given the impression from the Darwin camp that there are none that accept creation but there are quite a number, and even more Darwin doubters.
IMO stu there are goal posts, but only the creationists say where they are. darwinists claim to be open to following the evidence wherever it leads but it seems to me they do so at about the same rate as the theory they vigorously defend!. deep time dogma is not negotiable.
I had read about the discovery also, of dinos being more coloured than previously illustrated. that has no bearing on their dating does it?
DNA discovered though would. i predict that as and when more is discovered you's will still hang on to your religiously held deep time, just as you are with the finds now being established.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:21 PM

What is the seven stars link, Pete??

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:57 PM

Pete, there are no goal posts. Science is an incremental process that takes time, as research needs to be done, written up, published, peer-reviewed, re-tested by other scientists and developed upon. The continued use of phrases like 'Darwinists' and the laughable 'deep time dogma'.

If intact DNA was found and proved to be more durable than we thought, why would that challenge the existence of 'deep time'? It might challenge my understanding of the robustness of the DNA molecule, but that's fine as I am open to be challenged.

I don't believe in your god as there is not a single datum I am aware of indicating his/hers/its existence. By all means, point me to peer-reviewed research published in a scientific journal that might challenge this position. My betting is you won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:13 PM

Ah..gnome, what you are trying to do with your rapier like wit is trying to squeeze an inch in on me, huh?

Hakuma matata is more popular in comic books that in the real world..however probably heard it in Kenya..in your case you may have met someone from there.......or seen the lion king movie?

Whatever way, you cant really argue in English so you have no chance in cod Swahili.. again proving you a bigger fraud than Father Christmas

Would the tea be earl grey or Darjeeling? Again a pretty insulting remark from you.

You see phony, when I left my career in the Tanzanian navy as senior catering officer, holding the rank of vice admiral, I became chief tea buyer for Texas, in the southern province of India, so I do know me teas.

what you doing infesting North Yorkshire with your smug presence?

Lancashire got fed up with you?

I take it you mean carlings when you talk about black peas.. again you get it wrong..please stop trying to be smart. Get back to counting beans, and the thumb up bum syndrome.

Take three times a day.. that could act as your security blanket.


Good night sweet prince.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:40 AM

Well, I didn't think I really need to point it out to someone of your calibre but here goes -

From: saulgoldie - PM
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Hasa Diga Ebowai.

Saul

You see, the above expression crops up in "The Book of Mormon, The Musical" It's a clever sendup of Hakuna Matata from "The Lion King". So it was not really addressed to you but to Saul, who I am sure would have spotted the significance.

As to tea. Well, we are talking Sheffield here so I reckon PG Tips or Co-op would be best. We don't really want to give them ideas above their station if they are to be our faithful congregation.

We are beginning to have serous doubts as to your aptitude for the job I'm afraid but what you lack in coherence is more than compensated for by creative delusion. Keep it up, it gets funnier by the minute.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

"yes shimrod- my information does come from fully qualified scientists."

Ah yes, pete, but qualified in what? And have they published in reputable, peer-reviewed, SECULAR journals?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 02:17 PM

So gmomead, you aint heard about carlings?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM

I have indeed heard of carlings, carlins, pigeon peas, parched peas, brown peas and black peas. I have also heard of door stops, barm cakes, babbies yeds, fly pies and so many names for other foods that I have forgotten most of them. Thanks for asking.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM

I doubt shimrod, if there is a scientific disapline that is not represented. and yes they have been published in peer reviewed journals. I hear that occasionally even some papers that have implications on origins have slipped through, but usually anything that supports the creationist model is filtered out.

seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method.

blandiver- seven stars is just the name of the pub where the crayside singaround used to be held.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself laughing
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:56 PM

Greetings from a dodgy but almost functional internet connection in Thailand. Mrs Musket is getting ready to go out for the day and I have a few moments of boredom, so Mudcat is usually worth a giggle in such circumstances.

pete. You are right you know. You ARE referring to proper peer reviewed publication, as you note that creationist nonsense is filtered out. If you bother to ask yourself why that is, you might begin to understand the meaning of the word science.

You can be a fully qualified scientist, but if you conclude a solution to a hypothesis without foundation, your qualifications tend to go down in value..... Gaps in knowledge are not an invitation to fill the gaps with Jesus. After all, asserting something to be true without proof or foundation could be seen as lying if the intention is to persuade, and as you said on another thread, Christians don't lie.

Which is a pity, because that means the altar boys and choir boys deserved it, and they should have kept quiet about it after all! All those vulnerable women and young men who went to men of the cloth for protection because they were brought up to trust clergy, it was their fault for inadvertently tempting the holy ones, and to complain means you are branded a liar.

Hey, the mist is raising. I see what liar means now, in the ecclesiastical sense at any rate.

Tea. Do you know... Our hotel here serves Glengetti tea? Ok, with UHT milk and they don't boil the water properly, but it's the thought that counts.

Co Messiah and associated gnome. Of course the rear ending Admiral can serve the teas. Can't be any worse than Betty Swollox and the fiasco co Messiah S. Witnessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:14 AM

Yo Messiah M - Hope you are having a good time smiting the heathen in those foreign climes. I have just had another revelation. How do you do it? Anyway, I have just noticed the nautical theme. Sailors, Admirals. Do you think it could be something to do with the seawater or being cooped up for weeks on end?

Just a thought.

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:44 AM

" ... but usually anything that supports the creationist model is filtered out."

Why do you think such papers are filtered out, pete?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:01 AM

Ah....Thailand.. I remember running cats from there in the '60's.

That was the time when I was Captain of a Swiss tramp steamer,with a fondue set contract with the Nepalese government.

But of course you smug armchair liberals and Daily Mail reading soggy crumpet-eaters wouldn't know anything about that .

Intresting life mine..very

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM

"seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method."

I,s give,s up.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 06:30 AM

@Evolution theory.

Many details of evolution theory are disputed among scientists. However, if we formulate its central theorem weakly like "All animals and plants have common ancestors, and the evolution of species came about in a way compatible with probability theory (i.e. as if only by chance)", the overwhelming majority of biologists and philosophers of science subscribe to it, including all those that are not members of a Scripture religion, but also, and that is the crucial point, including a large number of Christians, who would have an easier life with "creationism" if it had any credibility.

Some theologians make the purely philosophical proviso that while evolution works as if driven by mere chance, it has in fact been planned by God. This statement has its own problematics, but does not interfere with science at all. (Not to be confused with the "Intelligent Design" variant of creationism, according to which God actively interferes with evolution, breaking the laws of probability.)

Note that evolution from one species to another can be observed with our eyes, and creates many new species every year - unless the whole scientific community (including its religious members) lie to us blatantly, consciously, and unanimously.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 06:56 AM

Intresting life mine..very

Absolutely fascinating, Conc. How about giving us a potted history?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM

We already have the potty history.

Been to see the leaning Buddha today. You can't call it the lying Buddha as it religious and apparently religious people never lie.

Or is that just Christians? I get confused.

Any road up. Concererened seems right up our street. The tramp steamer bit seems convincing to me and after all we religious dudes are known for being naive and believing any old bollocks.

Yo!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:46 PM

musket seems to be under the misconception that I was claiming Christians never lie.
read my last post again maybe. I said that for them to do so was inconsistent. this is because those doing so , and indeed clerical abusers of kids, are not heeding the God they claimed to serve.
but for the atheist,-can he point to a fixed standard?

IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists. the scientists in galileos day were slow catching on as well .
it should be noted that we are not talking of papers full of bible texts, but reasoned only from the scientific perpective.
I also hear that there are numerous submissions, so I would presume papers not agreeing with the reviewers worldview would have even less chance.

so soon, stu. nice talking to you.

griska - a large number of scientists used to subscribe to other things in the past that are now discarded.
seems that you have not read much creationist stuff because speciation is part of the model. the information was contained in the original animals from which the species descended ,mostly from losses in info ,I believe.
as to theologians accepting Darwinism, seems to me they are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 02:04 PM

yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM

Pete,

griska - a large number of scientists used to subscribe to other things in the past that are now discarded.

Quite correct (except for the spelling of my name). I mentioned a fact, not claiming it to prove anything.

seems that you have not read much creationist stuff

None at all, but I believe you that they have an explanation for everything.

as to theologians accepting Darwinism, seems to me they are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.

Now here we are at my actual point (though regrettably quite off the thread title). The word "Darwinism" is somewhat burnt, therefore I specified a central theorem that is challenged by creationists (- this much I read). Those theologians, and other religious people who understand the meaning of science, dismiss creationism because they found that it cannot be supported seriously. Some of them regret this sorely, others (the majority, I guess) have long ago made their peace with science, accepting that the realms of religion and science must be strictly separated. They do not find that the Bible really demands otherwise - ask Joe for details.

Actually my hope of convincing anybody here is not too high. I just want to emphasize that there are good reasons for the principles of evolution theory to be taught at all schools, being quite a different thing from religion or ideology.

I also think that children have a justified interest in learning about the faith of their community, including all mythology. When they reach puberty, they will inevitably find out how to interpret that, what is taken seriously and what not quite.

A large part of what passes for religion, particularly in Islam, is actually just cultural custom, or even downright abuse. That "Islamic" school was shut down because girls had to sit on the back benches etc. Non-religious private schools are prone to abuse as well - power is temptation.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:37 PM

What are you yawning at, Conc? Here we are, giving you the chance to enlighten us all about your very interesting dreams life and you don't take us up on the opportunity. What are we to make of that?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:50 PM

Of course he is bored Oh Brother Gnome. If you or I had to watch a programme on the telly we didn't understand we'd yawn too?

pete. I know you said lying wasn't consistent with Christianity as opposed to Christians don't lie. If we put the hair splitting to one side for a moment. .. We are still confronted by the second bit you said when you went on to generalise with the word atheist. It seemed to me you were willing to get a big brush dripping with whitewash and slap it on to those you refer to as atheists yet seek to be more selective when it comes to Christians?

Then you ask if "atheists" can point to a fixed standard? So a buggering priest should know his crime is wrong but a paedophile who isn't religious has the excuse of no moral compass? Further, you are saying, as written, that you cannot have moral standards without a guide book?

Then. . Then you wonder why I seek to ridicule your piff and waffle? When it comes to insulting I'm not in your league mate. I bow to the master.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM

You can tell people how to behave, but you cant tell people what to think.
They will do it despite themselves.
Some people need "God". Some people need "truth". Some people want to be "kings".....and they use "God or "truth" to fight their battles.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM

Is that anything like the 'truth' about forced medical procedures for homosexuals ake?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

"IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists."

And maybe, pete, the reputable journal editors know that a 'scientist' who thinks he knows everything already and is seeking to work backwards to some revealed, absolute truth is not a scientist, in any generally recognised sense, at all. A true scientist deals with uncertainty all the time - but rarely, if ever, with unassailable truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket lowering himself
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

Aye Akenaton, and occasionally they use their "liberal" credentials to fight their battles.

Who'd have thought it?

I have no problem whatsoever with what people think. We can't all have perfect upbringings, role models and experiences to fall back on. But if we try to convince others, some things are best left in our heads and not on our keyboards or mouths eh?

Some things may be part of our makeup but best if we keep them quiet and not shout about them. You wouldn't stand in a pub and admit you wank to pictures of Carole Smiley, so why post on the internet that you have issues with the existence of a whole group of our society?

Let alone come up with a solution...


Co messiah and associated gnome. It appears someone has joined the thread who fits the bill to join us in our true religion, on account of blinkered bigotry and endless trying to justify it. An ideal prophet you may think. Could I suggest though that not even we are that desperate?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:38 AM

"IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists. the scientists in galileos day were slow catching on as well ."

So . . . the peer review system is at fault because papers supporting your faith don't get published in journals?

Here's the rub: if creationists want to take on science they have to use scientific methods, they have to do it in the framework that hundreds of thousands of scientists have arrived at by common consensus over the centuries. If they don't then it isn't science, as none of us engaged in research can simply make up a new way of assessing the merit of the work of others to fit in with our own viewpoints.

Also, many papers are rejected for a whole host of reasons and many of these are by experienced, respectable and honest scientists. The truth is if there are flaws in the method or the data or any other number of reasons the paper may well be rejected; very few papers ever get accepted without some revisions.

So if your 'creationist scientists' are not getting papers published, there must be a flaw in the way they are doing the research.

One more thing, about this quote:

"seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method."

I take exception to being called a liar or having my integrity questioned by someone who neither knows me or constantly refuses to engage in reasoned debate, or back it up with any meaningful data (where are these supposed papers for example?). You might think all scientists are liars, but you are very, very wrong and you would do well to show some of that fabled christian understanding to people who don't share your opinion; you might think I am a fat twat in league with the devil himself and you might think I am deluded and wrong, but I do not lie or attempt to deceive, as my work is about the fundamental nature of the universe we live in.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM

Ian.... you've made a fool of yourself on the other thread, don't do the same on this one, or I may have to sort you out ....again. :0)

With facts of course, not abuse!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 06:31 PM

I did not call you a liar, stu.
believing that you reinterpret science to fit in with your presuppositions would be correct.
if that is calling you a liar , it is only what you say about creationists when they present their evidences. whats good for the goose.......
so how can the scientific model- ie repeatable etc- be used to claim you are right about the past?.

musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?
and please do not imply [if you are] that I am excusing abusers whether they be clerics or atheists.

shimrod which scientists think they know everything?
no- what we have is scientists that have presupositions that influence their research. it might be creation, ID ,or evolutionary.
the latter camp, I suspect hold the most power.

apologies grishka, for wrong spelling.
but what about those theologians who have examined evolutionism and found it cannot be taken seriously, not to mention scientists!

the argument from authority cuts either way.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:58 PM

pete. I am not. You have made your disdain of abusers of people using their religious authority plain, and the thrust of your argument is genuine. Not one I agree with but genuine. To get there however, you distort scientific discovery and that isn't genuine. That's the beef.



Anyway. I am going to sit back and enjoy the thread. Apparently someone is going to fill it with facts. Can't wait. Been waiting a bloody long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:12 AM

"shimrod which scientists think they know everything?"

Why creation "scientists" (it pains me to write that - even with the inverted commas!) of course. They claim to know everything because it's all written down in an old book!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:57 AM

Science cannot explain mental telepathy, but I know (believe)that it exists.

Is my belief any different to a belief in "god"?

I know many people who have experienced their "god"

Why does it concern atheists so much?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM

Why does it concern atheists so much?

Because such experience a) uncommon, b) utterly subjective & c) ultimately perverse in that it leads the 'believer' to a mystical sense of 'righteousness' entirely incompatible with the entirely wonderful post-religious reality of human life in the early 21st Century which is a) common to all, b) entirely objective, and c) the natural result of 50,000 of human struggle, striving, wonder, learning, enquiry, discovery and enlightenment.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM

"believing that you reinterpret science to fit in with your presuppositions would be correct."

. . . Except I don't, or rather I try to the abustle best of my ability not to otherwise it makes what I'm doing worthless. Question everything. If I do interpret my data to fit my own presuppositions then the peer review process will pick that up when I publish and I will have to go back and start again or whatever.

My point about creationists arguing against science is they must use scientific method to support their hypothesis (the world was made in seven days by god) if they want to be taken seriously by scientists, otherwise they are simply shouting gobbledygook.

I don't have a problem with religion and science (Buddhists positively embrace it) and many scientists are people of faith who happen to understand how science works and it makes not one jot of difference what they believe if they are doing good science, and bad science is the sole domain of anyone, but a universal scourge.

It's the constant distortion that bothers me, the creationist desire to rubbish honest endeavour and attempts to change a system that humankind have developed to deal with the questions raised by scientific philosophy over millennia. This refusal to address the issues by actually making the effort to understand modern science looks lazy and rather petulant, a sort of cultivated ignorance that is quite depressing to witness.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM

""musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?""

I do hate to see anyone entering into serious debate without even the most basic equipment.

All morality is variable Pete. It always has been and it always will be.

Morality is definable as what a society finds acceptable in the circumstances pertaining at any given time.

We used to consider it morally acceptable to marry girls as young as twelve years old, in ceremonies presided over by Christian priests. Now we don't!

We used to consider it morally acceptable to hang criminals for a whole variety of crimes, with a priest in attendance. Now we don't!

In other countries both practises are still considered moraly acceptable.

And the clincher......We used to consider it morally acceptable (in fact, a moral imperative) to send armies out to other countries for the express purpose of murdering non Christians.

NOW WE DON'T!

The most important point about this is that all these activities were considered morally acceptable, not just by God fosaken Atheists, but by Christians also, many of whom were excessively enthusiastic about the third example.

So don't keep trying, in your customary disingenuous fashion, to claim a moral high ground for the religious, which simply does not exist.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

Ake, if you would take the trouble to read what we have been saying you would see that a belief in god or anything is not the issue. In fact, the joint Messiahs and I have founded our whole new religion on the fact that Messiah S once saw some ball lightning! The problem is with religions that insist that everyone else has to believe in their imaginary friend or face the, often fatal, consequences. Most, if not all, religions are based on the certainty that god or gods exist. Atheists have the knowledge that nothing is certain and therefore cannot possibly form a religion. The whole premise of the thread is nonsensical and should be treated accordingly. But I suspect your issues with Musket and me would prevent you from reading any further than the headlines.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

""Why does it concern atheists so much?""

Simple Ake! It doesn't, until some religious evangelist starts multiple threads to attack them.

Not one of the non believers would have bothered to start anything, had JtS not got a bug up his arse about "militant Atheism", an oxymoron.

If you attack anyone and he fights back, that does not make him a militant, the term applies much more aptly to you!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:24 AM

had JtS not got a bug up his arse about "militant Atheism", an oxymoron.

No - it's actually a tautology.