BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:28 PM

"So, can we please put this myth to bed that it is a gay issue?"

Are you mad? It is a huge issue if you happen to be a male homosexual, not much of an issue if you are a heterosexual who cares only for his phoney equality agenda.

In talking of MSM, you are talking about less than 2% of the population, yet on your figures they account for 33% of estimated undiagnosed HIV infections.

Surely you cant be stupid enough to think that is not a "gay issue"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:09 PM

It is not my job to work out how the agencies target the demographic which contains 78% of new male HIV infections, but it will have to be done and soon.

As Joe mentioned further up the thread, there are means of compulsion which do not involve criminalisation
If the agencies are not prepared to bite the bullet the time has surely arrived for male homosexuals to regulate themselves.
The "opt out" scheme seems a good start, this means that male homosexuals will be routinely tested when presenting themselves for medical treatment unless they "opt out and refuse to be tested.
The agencies seem quite keen on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:38 PM

For the hundredth time, I'm talking about halting the transmission of the disease, the scientists may never discover a cure.

Still evading the issue, ake. Whether it is the hundredth time or not, I don't know. HOW would you 'halt transmission'. HOW would you enforce compulsory testing. Simple questions. Why will you not answer?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM

Keith can read definitive rather than professionally challenged annual reports

The PHE report is "professionally challenged" according to who?
If just you Musket, I will carry them.

The concern is, as anyone can read in the link Keith supplied, more of a straight sex issue.
No.
Hetero numbers are falling.
MSMs continue to rise.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 12:59 PM

This document, published October rather than November stated on the website by the way, is interesting reading and parts of it form the backbone of commissioning for the coming period. I read it when published and our people go back for updated figures now and then as bidding for department funding is already underway. The copy on the web now has range of estimates, whereas the first edition just gave the mid point, so already more useful than before.

The parts that are being questioned at present include the estimation of how many undiagnosed there are, as the 21900 is contested by providers on the basis of unequal modelling. NHS England is advising CCGs (commissioners) to ensure secondary diagnosis is collected so the revised figures reflect more accurately. There is a suspicion that there are more cases out there, especially in the younger female group and with substance misuse users, many of whom go from diagnosis to antiretroviral treatment without figuring in numbers derived from screening. (They visit their GP with symptoms and are referred to secondary care, so screening isn't part of their pathway. Whereas the vast majority of gay positive diagnoses are picked up from screening.)

Public Health England will be collating far more useful figures for healthcare planning than the HPA have done, so we will see less need for local interpretation or late clarification as they eventually start working. Mrs Musket is the regional cancer lead and although it is not helpful till more posts are filled and the system beds in, the public health input to the cancer networks is already promising. Hopefully, given time, the likes of Keith can read definitive rather than professionally challenged annual reports in future with regard to sexual health, ingrowing toenails and Lurgy.

Funnily enough, I asked the lead for sexual health at one of our CCGs today what she thought the 2012/13 figures will end up as, and she said once preliminary adjustments are closed, March ish, it should be just under 6000, or 8900 ish if you factor in secondary diagnosis. (We were talking cardio thoracic surgery, but I am interested in the figures from her perspective and mentioned websites where bigots are using the figures to justify hatred.) Whilst more useful, factoring in such things next year will mean the headline figures will rise, causing those of a criminal tendency to salivate at the idea of more need to round up gay people.....

The new system is far closer to other parts of The UK. Even the worm will be able to look at what affects his neighbours rather than non universal figures from other countries.

Approx 7300 gay men are unaware that they may be HIV+ from an estimated 21900 overall. Still far too many, but not in the league of countries which legally oppress gay people. I reckon WHO have a point, although ignorance and fear are rife in all countries, not to mention bigotry and homophobia. Eh worm? If there are 21900 out there and only 7300 are gay, not much point in rounding up gays after all. Unless you have a final solution in mind, bastard. Only 33%.....

After all, 45% of new diagnoses are heterosexual sex derived, so your plan to round people up will have to include them too. Oh, and the shortfall in the maths there is accounted for with other causes such as needlestick, transfusion error, birth etc. Want them on your register too?



If good people haven't the time or will to read all the above, just take this point from the data the worm and Keith keep referring to;

There are believed to be approximately 21,900 people in The UK who are unaware that they nay be HIV+.    33% of them are gay. 45 % of them are heterosexual. The rest are at risk through other factors than sex.

So, can we please put this myth to bed that it is a gay issue?

The figures suggest gay people are more likely to respond to offers for screening, hence in 2011 for the first time, gay diagnoses overtook heterosexual ones. The concern is, as anyone can read in the link Keith supplied, more of a straight sex issue.

So we are left with pure hatred based on ignorance and puerile interest in the bedrooms of others. When the worm uses words such as pervert, he fails to see the irony.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 12:31 PM

Bloody hell Dave!.....For the hundredth time, I'm talking about halting the transmission of the disease, the scientists may never discover a cure.
Keith has kindly provided some information, but almost as important is contact tracing for those who test positive. The large numbers of MSM who are unaware of their HIV status will pass the disease on to all of their sexual contacts if they indulge in risk taking.

Frequent testing and contact tracing for MSM is a must.
As I have said many times, hopefully the homosexual community can ensure that NOT to be frequently tested is unacceptable socially.

It would be too costly and time consuming to test everyone in the country at the same rate...but the MSM demographic is massively over represented in the new infection returns and requires to be targeted if the epidemic is to be slowed or halted.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 10:06 AM

"The large majority of new infections stem from MSM unaware of their
infection [4]."
page 9
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 09:49 AM

People who test positive receive antiretroviral treatment.
This makes them much less infectious.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 09:48 AM

My , my, You are getting desperate Ian.

"78% of newly diagnosed HIV infections amongst men in the US, are from the MSM demographic." (CDC)

Is that better?.......No its worse, worse than it was ten years ago, before civil union, or homosexual "marriage".

So your WHO statistic is either made up, or simply wrong.
With your posting history, I would guess "made up".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 09:39 AM

Let us start discussing ways in which this epidemic can be halted

I have asked over and over again for your plans for this ake and you seem to be avoiding the issue. How do YOU believe this 'epidemic' can be halted. Not by compulsory testing for sure. Testing victims does not cure viruses. And how do YOU propose that testing is made compulsory?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 07:20 AM

Incidence of infections being treated has risen, and that's not only good news, but isn't an increase in infection rates. For that to be true, more unknown infections that cannot be measured would have to be assumed.

Not a single person has to support gay marriage. It is a legal right. Just like Ginger people can marry blondes. Nothing to support if it doesn't affect you. Nothing to hate if it doesn't affect you either, cretin.

I didn't give evidence for the commentary on the WHO annual report 2012/13. I also said that they didn't either.

Read a full sentence before waffling on about sin, justice, perversion, hate, whatever.

Hopefully, I won't hear the "whatever" as it gets muffled as you bury yourself in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:34 AM

"Here's a WHO statistic for you. Prevalence of HIV is largely inversely proportional to acceptance of gay lifestyle"

Bullshit... Firstly, have you any data to back up that statement?
Secondly...You have said often that the majority of the population now support "gay marriage" and have a positive view of homosexuality, but infection rates have risen consistently at an average of 8/10% annually over the last ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM

If we stop calling it a sin, will Jesus lower the infection rates?



I clicked on a thread earlier called explosive diarrhea. I made the mistake of thinking that Keith A hole of Hertford or the worm had started it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 05:15 AM

Latest figures from CDC published Dec 2013.

63% of all new cases of HIV in the US, come from the MSM demographic.

But that is not quite the whole story.

78% of all new HIV cases amongst men, come from the MSM demographic.


Please let us stop denying a truth which is becoming more obvious every day. Let us start discussing ways in which this epidemic can be halted, and stop the stupid arguments over whether it exists or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:57 AM

Troubador...Sorry but you are wrong and misquoting me.

The question that I am often asked is "If there was no STD epidemic amongst homosexuals, would you still be opposed to gay marriage?"

To which you rightly say I reply..."there are other considerations".
By which I mean the redefinition of marriage and the effect of that redefinition on other sectors of the community, like committed Christians, many of whom see homosexuality as a sin.

I can assure you Guest, that I have absolutely nothing to apologise to Bill for, but if Bill thinks that I have, he can speak to me by PM and does not require assistance from you. He is a very able debater in his own right.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:46 AM

Musket, you said "The Terence Higgins Trust figures, 51%, and HPA figures for the same period, 43%. How can that be?"

You got it wrong.
The HPA figures for the period were 51%, and I linked to the PHE report filed on the old HPA web address to prove it.

A normal person would shrug it off and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM

Perhaps if you bother reading my comments about the gradual demise of The Health protection Agency in this and other threads, you may answer your own question.

With regard to England, Public Health England is the recipient of the public health functions of the old PCTs. The fragmentation at this time is unfortunate as it is moving to local government, whereas the observatory function remains with NHS England.

Here's the clincher, prat.

The individual reports for the period 2012/13 still await verified commissioning data such as HRG coding in order to plan 2014/15 budgets.

If you look hard enough, you might even see live links to Dept of Health functions that stopped being updated a few years ago. I am not expressing a view here, I am not putting an idea forward. I am saying what is, and how it is. Lies and spin don't change how the mess The NHS is in through the government 's reforms isn't understood by me or anyone else fully. But I reckon we know a little more about our world than an armchair google trawler.

Oh, and stop quoting foreign statistics and applying them to here. You can't compare a system that is universal with systems that are fragmented and based on access.

The picture for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales is less fragmented, but smaller demographic. They are getting buggered around less.



Worm. There is no hope for you. I will ask all the gay people to be careful when in Scotland though, to make sure you don't catch anything off their debased perverse lifestyle eh?

Epidemic. Infectious disease that is widespread in a community at a particular time. Not even chlamydia gets that accolade. Don't compare the healthcare use of the word with newspaper and far right / religious website use of the word.

If you were intelligent and wanted to sensationalise, you could say that in the '80 s it was pandemic in The West, and remains pandemic in certain parts of the world. It is also argued that anything is potentially pandemic due to international travel.....

Here's a WHO statistic for you. Prevalence of HIV is largely inversely proportional to acceptance of gay lifestyle.

Interesting.... You take the maths around that with a pinch of salt as it is not strictly known if it is a fact or not, but the spread certainly increases in areas where ignorance and blame culture is rife.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 13 - 02:29 AM

Those figures ARE in the public domain.
He was wrong, but rather than admit it he pretends that only he can see the true figures.
He can not even give a link.
You are so gullible!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:40 PM

"You should have just shrugged off the small discrepancy, but your arrogance and hubris would not let you.
Silly Musket."

Are you really the thicko you present as, whenever you get involved in a thread?

It is part of Musket's job that he has access to latest statistics, often long before they enter the public domain.

These figures you cannot access, not because he made them up, but because you are not yet permitted access.

Stupid Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 06:28 PM

"I would bet that if there had never BEEN an HIV virus, you would still condemn homosexuality and find some other 'statistic' to wave about." Bill D

"That comment is beneath contempt, given the time and effort that I have expended here to bring this particular situation to the attention of other members and the suffering which is taking place amongst male homosexuals." Achy

You are a liar, a bigot and stupid to boot!

You have frequently responded to the question "If a cure were found, would that change your view of Gays?" with the response "There are other considerations!"

It is obvious to all here that your detestation of Gays is intrinsic to your personality and nothing, but nothing, will change that.

YOU OWE BILL AN ABJECT APOLOGY!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 05:28 PM

What we both called HPA is now PHE.
Did you not even know that musket?
Follow my HPA link and you will find it is an HPE report.

So, I linked to the HPA/PHE 2012 figures published in November 2013.
What other ones are you talking about?
Do you even know?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:08 PM

Ian you are simply waffling.
"There is no epidemic amongst MSM?"

Both CDC and HPA call it an epidemic, but I didn't expect you to know that, if you didn't even know the correct percentage rates.

"You however, supported by your friend Keith, push one small statistic that has been taken out of context by many, and sadly in commentary by regulatory bodies, oblivious of how it is snapped up by those who want to use it to persecute."

What that means without the Orwellian overtones dear readers, is that Ian would like details of the epidemic of STDs amongst MSM, buried amongst falling infection rates in other demographics; now that is not good for male homosexuals, nor for society at large, who will have huge costs for lifetime health care to find because of an epidemic given free rein.

It is though, very good for Ian's personal agenda of phoney equality ...the epidemic must be allowed to continue unabated, as to target the demographic most hugely at risk would smack of inequalit

Have you ever heard anything so cruel or so stupid?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 03:53 PM

Well I for one await the 2012/13 statistics that PHE will publish.


Oy pete. Your jibe "religiously "aimed at Stu uses the term negatively.

Well done.

Snag is, only religion is done religiously. Reality tends to be realistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link.
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 02:21 PM

Stu.    Your default position, which you hold religiously, to the point of bad mouthing your positions detractors , is that only naturalistic causes are allowable. This is not provable, and infact the argument from design, and the large lack of evidence for the all from nothing via no one alternative origins story, is a good argument for a creator .

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM

YOU chose to make an issue of it.
You claimed it had been "superseded" by an "interim" report.
Not true.
It was the final figure for 2012.
You said it would be updated in March.
Not true.
It was the final figure.
I do not believe you have any other information, and that is why you can not give a link.

You should have just shrugged off the small discrepancy, but your arrogance and hubris would not let you.
Silly Musket.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:58 PM

I quoted the figures. You made a meal of a few percent to look clever. I have access to adjusted figures, you had the best publicly available. I gave you a link. It didn't work as I hadn't noticed I had Athens on when searching it, meaning I got into the intranet site, which I have said time and time again, but keep saying I gave a duff link in case someone reckons you might have a point.

You them insisted on using that difference to call me a liar.

True to form.

Of course creating a smokescreen is the real purpose isn't it? The health reasons for victimising gay people is what you need to keep on peoples's minds eh?

Despite it being bullshit.
Despite gay lifestyle not being a health hazard.
Despite most people, gay and straight being averse to anal sex.
Despite those who do using protection in the main.
Despite the riding tide of monogamous long term relationships.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:33 PM

Notwithstanding all that Musket, you stated the HPA figure was 43% when it actually was 51%.
Not much of a discrepancy, but you decided to make it one, and embarked on a campaign of lies and smears to hide the fact that you were wrong.
Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM

Worm.

I have never been an advisor on STDs. I have never been an advisor on dentistry, ingrowing toenails or breast cancer. Clever professionals in healthcare do that.

For what it is worth, I, in different guises as a Chairman of a CHC, PCT, and a Health Authority, advisor at DH, regulator, author of board governance guidance and most recently as a director of transformation and improvement for a large teaching trust have done my bit. Most of that "bit" has been challenging and uncovering failures in health and social care, far less time helping organise it. I have been critical of some sexual health services in the past but am encouraged by the emphasis in recent years.

One bit includes having designed services for sexual health, substance misuse and other hard to reach groups in a particular inner city. Although I don't need that experience to recognise lies to incite hatred. Using health scare stories to push this criminal agenda is particularly shocking. Also illegal to publish where you live, but hate doesn't recognise decent behaviour.

Your information is disingenuous. Keith, who reckons he knows how to tie his shoe laces gets a single part of a jigsaw of data and waves it to prove queers need exterminating. You are not in his league. If he bristles at that accusation, he can start redeeming himself by being less cavalier with data. Twelve thousand new HIV + treatments started, about half were false flag. Of the rest, about half were in the bracket you get upset over. That is the 3250 he rattles on about, which PHE have refined to a provisional 2990 ish. This may move as the data is refined. It takes time as data is based on the diagnoses and treatments for alpha presentation, and many STDs are secondary in reporting terms, (although important for patient care...)

Levels are rising, in all risk groups. More gay men come forward than other risk groups. Figures are rising as irresponsible people, reading bad advice, seem to think all you need is a pill now to stop AIDS. Yes, but at great cost. You however, supported by your friend Keith, push one small statistic that has been taken out of context by many, and sadly in commentary by regulatory bodies, oblivious of how it is snapped up by those who want to use it to persecute.

There is an issue still, despite advances in both encouraging safe sex and medical advances in antiretrovirals , and one particular risk group is gay men, and yes, it is believed that there are still a couple of thousand undetected HIV+ cases in gay men, as there are many more suspected cases in other risk groups. The higher prevalence is due to more tests in that group. I repeat, the gay screening is a sign of success. The issue is other risk groups. Still far too many, but compared to chlamydia? Not scratching the surface.

Talk of epidemic is somewhat erroneous to say the least. There is a huge epidemic in many parts of the world, and mostly this is through birth, sex (heterosexual and homosexual) hygiene and poor medical care.

You seem to apply the awful statistics to The UK. You also apply it to gay men.

Both assumptions are not only wrong, but are dangerous if believed as people would be led to believe gay lifestyle wasn't natural or was a danger to health. If you are perpetuating that myth, you are an evil person.

Very evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM

ake- you call my 'bet' "beneath contempt", even after acknowledging that I am known for trying to be fair. Almost everyone who reads your remarks gets the impression that you are against certain behaviors, rather than just the disease. If this is incorrect, please clarify and *I* will modify my language. Your suggestions about compulsory testing and monitoring don't make clear exactly HOW officialdom would determine who is to BE tested, and what would happen to anyone who tests positive.

Quite apart from this, you have not replied in any way to my point about an improper use of the word 'purpose'. Your belief that homosexuality is 'unnatural' seems to be a driving force behind your concern to employ compulsion against men who are identified as homosexual... or even any man who engages in MSM.
There are many diseases in humans that need new medical treatments and concerns, but you define HIV/AIDS as somehow .... immoral?... as well as sad & dangerous because you see the vectors as 'unnatural'. Continued citing of statistics (which are quite debatable, according to different sources) does not 'prove' that your basic approach is fair... so be careful how you describe my opinions as unfair.

You also cite mostly UK (and sometime African) statistics, but since HIV is a world-wide issue, and people travel a lot, any sort of compulsory testing/monitoring opens up a Pandora's Box of international law and compliance.

Be assured, ALL of us... even those who criticize you... hope for controls and cures, but education and science are the first choices of most of us, not Draconian, compulsory 'testing' of.... who?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 11:26 AM

Ian, you say you have been "advising" the health agencies for years, if this true, why are male homosexual infection rates still at epidemic levels and rising?
If you "advice" had offered some measure of success, I would be the first to give you credit.
As it is, your "advice" seems to be absolutely useless.

Sure. Until you spot the logical fallacy here. It wasn't difficult.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 10:45 AM

I have set out my view on what should be done to halt this epidemic of transmission many times here.....to have it misrepresented again and again by Ian.
Targeted testing and contact tracing is required

Completely, blatantly and transparently untrue ake. ALL you have proposed is compulsory testing and tracing. You have never said how you propose to enforce the compulsory testing and what you propose to do once you have the results. I suspect I know why you will not tell us as does every other right minded person.

So, once again, how are you going to enforce this compulsory testing and once you know that someone has the virus what do you propose to do with them?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:43 AM

Bill...."Dave the Gnome has asked you once again to enlarge on your ideas for **doing something**...you have largely ignored this.

Unusually for you Bill, this is quite untrue, I have set out my view on what should be done to halt this epidemic of transmission many times here.....to have it misrepresented again and again by Ian.
Targeted testing and contact tracing is required......simply waiting for a *cure* to miraculously appear is not an option in this case, the new infection rates are horrific enough as it is.

"I would bet that if there had never BEEN an HIV virus, you would still condemn homosexuality and find some other 'statistic' to wave about."

That comment is beneath contempt, given the time and effort that I have expended here to bring this particular situation to the attention of other members and the suffering which is taking place amongst male homosexuals.

You used to command some credibility in my eyes regarding what you post here on most subjects, you are rapidly losing credibility in the eyes of anyone who values fair comment.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:20 AM


You meanwhile have made it perfectly clear that you use your religious justifications to treat gay people as inferior.

You have to lie about me, because I expose your ignorance.
Whatever your job, you got your figures wrong as proved by this post of mine.
It starts with a quote from you.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope's Survey
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 03 Dec 13 - 08:05 AM

The Terence Higgins Trust figures, 51%, and HPA figures for the same period, 43%. How can that be?

It can not be.
You were wrong.
Again.
HPA.
"diagnoses among MSM accounted for 3,250 (51%) of new
diagnoses in 2012, the highest number ever reported."
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM

Ian, you say you have been "advising" the health agencies for years, if this true, why are male homosexual infection rates still at epidemic levels and rising?
If you "advice" had offered some measure of success, I would be the first to give you credit.
As it is, your "advice" seems to be absolutely useless.

The worst possible thing that can happen as far as homosexuals are concerned is that their rising HIV and SYPHILLIS infection rates are hidden under an overall fall in all other demographics.
I see that would suit agenda driven people like you perfectly.
I don't think you really care about anything except you phoney equality agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Dec 13 - 03:23 AM

Keith.

The person behind Musket does this for a living. The person behind Musket uses the figures. The person behind Musket is part of the work that is looking to find the appropriate replacement for the data gathering work that is presently shared between HPA and Dr Foster. What is most funny is that you will have read some commentary (though not on sexual health per se) by me as regarding data source.

You meanwhile have made it perfectly clear that you use your religious justifications to treat gay people as inferior.

Calling those charged with helping find answers liars when they simply used preliminary figures not in the public domain yet, by accident, doesn't make you look good. It makes you look the right wing activist you are.

You spread poison over history, poison over the Middle East, poison over persecution when those of your faith are in the driving seat and your favourite word is "liar." Over use of that word to denounce normal people didn't work ultimately for other propagandists do I doubt a fool such as yourself could ever stand a chance.

Now take your best friend out for a drink and discuss new ways of drawing division in society. If either of you had the intelligence and opportunity, you'd at least have the motive.

All this because you lied a few weeks ago and was embarrassed to be found out.

Pathetic really.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 02:07 PM

Wrong Musket.
The report I linked to was "Published November 2013: data to end December 2012"
http://www.hpa.org.uk/webc/HPAwebFile/HPAweb_C/1317140300680

Not a "preliminary" report. You lied.
Not "superseded." You lied.
Not "the mid term indicators you see as October figures." You lied.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM

ake: "...don't try and muddy the waters"

I was replying directly to your claims, which ARE a muddying of the waters.
Your assertions about statistics and demographics by themselves are both misleading and often inaccurate, but when you attempt to make a case for their relevance by invoking careless science (attributing 'purpose' where none exists in the sense you claim), you are simply using the entire mish-mash of shaky correlations to support your own prejudices and subjective attitudes.
Dave the Gnome has asked you once again to enlarge on your ideas for **doing something**:

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 12:52 PM

..but you largely avoid this debate.

   EVERYONE would like to find a fair, easy way to rid the world of HIV/AIDS, but you have, both implicitly and explicitly, made it clear that you wold find a simple **cure** inadequate. You try to artificially define one aspect of human evolution as 'unnatural' simply because it occurs in a minority of the population.... and because you have some deep-seated aversion. Then you ramble on about MSM 'statistics'. I would bet that if there had never BEEN an HIV virus, you would still condemn homosexuality and find some other 'statistic' to wave about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM

Now lets get this clear Ian, you want to see more infections showing up, as that means more men are asking to be tested?

I want to see more testing to stop men transmitting the disease to others.

Don't you realise that every infection you wish for means a life sentence for someone.
Haven't you got things arse for elbow Ian?
If your aim is to confuse everybody here, you are sure succeeding.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM

"So much for tolerance….the thought police are here!."

How the heck can I be the thought police? I'm worried about the ludicrous tripe spouted by nasty fundamentalists without a reasonable thought in their head.

But as the default position of any adherent to any religion is that everyone who entertains any view that doesn't accord with their own is wrong (i.e.. lotsa people) then you'd expect some carping.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM

Just noticed that a fairly long post I did has come out as tep.


Bugger me.

Tep appears to be shorthand for a long post droning on about Keith A Hole of Hertford and his confusion, although calling me a liar doesn't help. I think I said something along the lines of him purposely confusing 2012 with 2012/13 April to March. The report he refers to, six months after the cut off date, I received it October, still awaits verification from HRG returns from commissioners blah blah. I reiterated that the HPA adjustment was from their log in section as I have access in order to carry out Cochrane searches, and didn't realise it wasn't the public site. I have already mentioned that but no, Keith, being the jumped up politically motivated little shit he is, keeps harping on in case someone hadn't seen my post on the subject and might think he is being truthful.

I don't know about atheism being militant, but with Keith's record with terminological inexactitudes, it appears part time semi Christians are too when it comes to supporting anything that stigmatises gay people.

Your church must be proud of you. Although if there were such a thing as Jesus, I reckon his head would be in his hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 10:49 AM

Because if you weren't lying, or being confused, and I expect it to be a combination, society would have ceased to function a long time ago. Viroaemia is the transmission medium and women can be infected in the same way and by the same means as men.

Because we have a programme of testing for people who feel at risk together with encouraging results from contact tracing, I can report that if other at risk groups behaved as responsibly as male gays at risk, we would be even better.

The large number of gay men coming forward for testing is good news, an excellent responsible approach by all but the inevitable hard to reach groups and the fact that nearly half of those testing positive last year were gay men is a sign of the system working, you thick cunt.

I welcome debate on reaching out to promiscuous women and heterosexual men, substance misuse addicts and those who form sexual relationships with them. The upward figures for gay men is good, more from other at risk groups would be better.

I certainly don't welcome debate on the merits of stigmatising gay men, many of whom apparently find anal sex as off putting as I do, if I were to think about it. I don't welcome any input by evil minded shallow witted small men who think it is acceptable to use words such as perverts or hint at paedophilia as an aspect of being gay. I doubt anyone shares your wish to force gay men to register with the authorities and be assaulted, by testing without their consent. It's against the law for starters.

If you must carry on your fascination of the bedrooms of others, may I suggest visiting websites that cater for such voyeuristic fantasy?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 09:07 AM

"A few people affected" why do you continually lie and obfuscate Ian?

As I have said many times, if heterosexuals were affected at even half the rates of male homosexuals, society would cease to function.
Lifetime healthcare alone would be unsustainable.

Yet you say there is no need for concern?
That there is no need for a radical programme of targeted testing and contact tracing?
You are heartless and agenda driven.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 08:04 AM

Tep

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 05:46 AM

more lies.
The HPA report was about 2012, and published November 2013.
It was definitive.
Why not give us a link to the report that says HPA figures are inaccurate?
I asked you weeks ago and all we got was a fake link.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 04:23 AM

Bugger me. You are cutting and pasting your own words now Keith.

If you don't have a problem with the vast majority of what I put, at least accept it all comes from the same source. ie What I do to keep busy these days, healthcare planning. HPA are a source of data. They cannot be definitive. They exist to protect not collect, so revise constantly as other data (look up hrg if you must) is processed and available. The picture NHS commissioners then use is from a meta analysis (look that up too if you want to.)

You are shouting Liar! over what amounts to less than ten actual cases out of twelve thousand positive indications. By March, we will have corroborated figures from the mid term indicators you see as October figures. It isn't worth the smoke screen you put up to discredit such figures. Healthcare is a political beast at present. I would urge people to look at the reality available rather than skewed commentary.



For everyone else. The reason I have waffled on at length on health is to try and put this corker to bed. Those who hate sections of society pretend to care for them by pointing out matters regarding their health. Akenhateon does this all the time. Whilst there is reason to address matters that are a risk to a few people, society does so, and as adequately as is possible. Strip the false health shit from his words and you are left with the clear hatred.

Frightening that such views not only exist but gain ground amongst even mainstream political parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 04:04 AM

Bill....Oh but their is a demographic which covers male to male sexual intercourse.
Its very simple really, it's called MSM (men who have sex with men) and for some reason that demographic contains an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases. Its not too complicated really...don't try and muddy the waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:30 AM

You DID state that the November HPA report was "preliminary."
That was unquestionably a lie.
You DID state that it was "superseded" by another.
That was unquestionably a lie.
You are a liar and must expect all you statements to be challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 03:23 AM

Your post I mostly had no problem with, except you said it was sourced from BMJ.
Which facts?
You repeated your claim that the November HPA figures were inaccurate.
You failed to substantiate that the first time, which suggest that you can not substantiate it.
Can you, or is it made up?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 02:26 AM

See how Keith A Hole of Hertford picks up on an issue that health providers battle with, the depth of coding, and reckons The NHS makes it up. This is for two reasons.

Firstly he tries to attack anything I or two or three others say regardless and claims his google trawl doesn't give immediate quotes we use. He cannot understand we use our own words rather than cut and paste the words of others. He came a cropper when he did that with a far right political organisation earlier this year.

Secondly, this rather technical instrument, depth of coding represents the accuracy of the published data on health issues. The Health Protection Agency moan, quite rightly, that sloppy recording by health providers (including private providers) puts a far too wide tolerance on the figures. The consultants in public health who have to advise on types and priorities of services have to weigh the raw data against trawls of other intelligence. Once this is done, corrected ( to a degree ) figures are given back to The HPA. They in turn keep their original figures as their source and acknowledge refinements by public health and commissioners. Sexual health is a small part of it. The largest area is avoidable mortality. When you hear of The NHS chief medical director Bruce Keogh putting a hospital in "special measures" it is normally a concern over mortality figures. Occasionally this is found to be quality of care but in the vast majority of figures it is depth of coding. A trust in Yorkshire went from being one of the worst to one of the best in the Dr Foster ratings without a single quality improvement measure but focussing on coding. Or in other words, a man brought through A&E In the middle of the night died of the cancer he had, not the chest infection the emergency services diagnosed when collecting him from the care home. (A typical rather than extreme example.)

Sorry to bore people but this is my work. I don't know much about creationist nonsense or what Earl Haigh had for breakfast whilst earning the title Butcher of The Somme but I am acutely aware of those despicable bodies who twist health data to justify why they hate sections of society. We see it in sexual health with gay people and we see it in tuberculosis with the travelling community. We even see high incidence of type II diabetes with Asian origin people being used in the economic migrant debate.

I recognise the arguments Akenhateon and Keith A Hole of Hertford use, because those responsible for planning and delivery of healthcare services keep a watchful eye on opinions that can reach politicians in order to combat them with the real picture.

Keith rattles on about The British Medical Journal. I subscribe and read it every week. Numerous papers published over coding. Numerous papers published over planning sexual health services. I co authored a paper on the effect of coding on mortality outliers when working in regulation. Not being a health service professional, my input was board level assurance versus false flag funding.

Don't call me a liar Keith. Every time I say anything on any matter you start your tirade. You have already been exposed as a supporter of a far right group who advocate suppressing the gay community, so your credibility is about as good as Akenhateon's.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 13 - 01:17 AM

"There is **NOT** an either/or about sexual preference... there is a complex continuum of variations from total, absolute heterosexuality to some sort of bisexuality to complete, overwhelming homosexuality...."

Bill, Alfred Kinsey said essentially the same thing back in the 1950s, and all kinds of people like Ake shat all over his head at the time. Simply found the idea unacceptable.

Nevertheless. . . .

Don Firth