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BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Stringsinger 05 Sep 13 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 05 Sep 13 - 04:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 05 Sep 13 - 04:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Sep 13 - 08:39 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 05 Sep 13 - 09:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Sep 13 - 01:00 AM
GUEST 06 Sep 13 - 01:27 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Sep 13 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 06 Sep 13 - 06:11 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 06 Sep 13 - 08:14 AM
Stringsinger 06 Sep 13 - 10:27 AM
Amos 06 Sep 13 - 10:53 AM
Stringsinger 06 Sep 13 - 02:51 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Sep 13 - 06:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Sep 13 - 07:48 PM
GUEST,Musket praying ish 07 Sep 13 - 02:37 AM
GUEST,concerened 07 Sep 13 - 07:13 AM
Stringsinger 07 Sep 13 - 11:28 AM
Jack the Sailor 07 Sep 13 - 01:35 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Sep 13 - 02:10 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Sep 13 - 04:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Sep 13 - 04:55 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 08 Sep 13 - 01:41 AM
GUEST,concerened 08 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Musket par for the course 08 Sep 13 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,concerened 08 Sep 13 - 10:37 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 08 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Sep 13 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,concerened 08 Sep 13 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,Grishka 08 Sep 13 - 12:15 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Sep 13 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,concerened 08 Sep 13 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,concerened 08 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Grishka 08 Sep 13 - 06:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Sep 13 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Grishka 08 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 09 Sep 13 - 01:21 AM
Mr Happy 09 Sep 13 - 07:10 AM
GUEST,Musket etc 09 Sep 13 - 12:06 PM
Stringsinger 09 Sep 13 - 02:31 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Sep 13 - 02:37 PM
Stringsinger 09 Sep 13 - 03:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Sep 13 - 05:30 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 10 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM
GUEST,Grishka 10 Sep 13 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,concerend 10 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 10 Sep 13 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Grishka 10 Sep 13 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Musket scratching his arse 10 Sep 13 - 12:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Sep 13 - 04:36 PM
Stringsinger 10 Sep 13 - 05:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Sep 13 - 05:26 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Sep 13 - 07:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Sep 13 - 02:37 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 11 Sep 13 - 02:55 AM
Mr Happy 11 Sep 13 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Musket living the dream 11 Sep 13 - 05:09 AM
GUEST,Grishka 11 Sep 13 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,KEMAT 11 Sep 13 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Grishka 11 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM
Mr Happy 11 Sep 13 - 08:24 AM
GUEST,Musket grinning 11 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Sep 13 - 09:42 AM
Mr Happy 11 Sep 13 - 11:33 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 13 - 12:20 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 13 - 02:16 PM
GUEST,Musket living the dream 11 Sep 13 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,KEMAT 11 Sep 13 - 03:42 PM
Stringsinger 11 Sep 13 - 05:38 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 13 - 06:04 PM
Stringsinger 11 Sep 13 - 06:10 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 13 - 06:15 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Sep 13 - 06:29 PM
GUEST,Grishka 11 Sep 13 - 06:38 PM
Jack the Sailor 11 Sep 13 - 10:52 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 12 Sep 13 - 01:26 AM
GUEST,KEMAT 12 Sep 13 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 12 Sep 13 - 05:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Sep 13 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Grishka 12 Sep 13 - 06:22 AM
Mr Happy 12 Sep 13 - 06:36 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 12 Sep 13 - 07:01 AM
Mr Happy 12 Sep 13 - 07:39 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Sep 13 - 08:43 AM
Jack the Sailor 12 Sep 13 - 08:57 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 12 Sep 13 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah 12 Sep 13 - 12:52 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Sep 13 - 01:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Sep 13 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Grishka 12 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM
Stringsinger 12 Sep 13 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Grishka 12 Sep 13 - 06:54 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Sep 13 - 07:47 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Sep 13 - 08:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Sep 13 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 13 Sep 13 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 13 Sep 13 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,KEMAT 13 Sep 13 - 04:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Sep 13 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Musket nodding 13 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 13 - 12:25 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Musket clarifying 13 Sep 13 - 01:22 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Sep 13 - 02:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Sep 13 - 03:14 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Grishka 13 Sep 13 - 03:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Sep 13 - 11:30 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 14 Sep 13 - 02:39 AM
GUEST,Grishka 14 Sep 13 - 05:44 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 13 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 14 Sep 13 - 11:29 AM
GUEST 14 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Sep 13 - 07:57 PM
GUEST,achmelvich 14 Sep 13 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Musket saying Damn! 15 Sep 13 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Sep 13 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,musket being obvious 15 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 13 - 08:21 AM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM
Stringsinger 15 Sep 13 - 11:40 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Sep 13 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Sep 13 - 12:38 AM
Little Hawk 16 Sep 13 - 01:04 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Sep 13 - 01:09 AM
Little Hawk 16 Sep 13 - 01:39 AM
Joe Offer 16 Sep 13 - 02:05 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Sep 13 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Sep 13 - 05:05 AM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Sep 13 - 06:05 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Sep 13 - 07:35 AM
Little Hawk 16 Sep 13 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,Musket clarifying 16 Sep 13 - 12:58 PM
Little Hawk 16 Sep 13 - 01:31 PM
Stringsinger 16 Sep 13 - 02:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Sep 13 - 06:34 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 16 Sep 13 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Sep 13 - 06:52 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 13 - 06:55 PM
GUEST,musket evangelical as ever 18 Sep 13 - 01:59 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Sep 13 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Sep 13 - 05:58 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 06:58 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Sep 13 - 07:36 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Musket being cool 18 Sep 13 - 09:04 AM
Stringsinger 18 Sep 13 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Sep 13 - 09:11 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 09:28 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Sep 13 - 10:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Sep 13 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,Musket clarifying 18 Sep 13 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Sep 13 - 12:23 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 01:02 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Musket laughing 18 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Sep 13 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Sep 13 - 03:39 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Sep 13 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Musket noting 19 Sep 13 - 02:42 AM
GUEST,Grishka 19 Sep 13 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 19 Sep 13 - 06:09 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Sep 13 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,concerened 19 Sep 13 - 08:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Sep 13 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Musket shagging a stoat 19 Sep 13 - 09:59 AM
Stringsinger 19 Sep 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Sep 13 - 12:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Sep 13 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,concerened 19 Sep 13 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Musket gettin 19 Sep 13 - 04:20 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Sep 13 - 05:15 PM
Stringsinger 19 Sep 13 - 05:43 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,Musket living the dream 20 Sep 13 - 02:22 AM
GUEST,concerened 20 Sep 13 - 05:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 13 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 20 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,concerened 20 Sep 13 - 08:33 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 13 - 09:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM
Stringsinger 20 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,concerenrd 20 Sep 13 - 04:07 PM
Stringsinger 20 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Sep 13 - 04:17 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 21 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 21 Sep 13 - 06:14 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM
Stringsinger 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 22 Sep 13 - 01:52 AM
GUEST,concerened 22 Sep 13 - 07:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Sep 13 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Musket wondering? 22 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Sep 13 - 12:59 PM
Stringsinger 22 Sep 13 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars links 22 Sep 13 - 03:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Sep 13 - 04:10 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Sep 13 - 05:58 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Sep 13 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 23 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM
Joe Offer 23 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Musket nodding 23 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 23 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM
GUEST 23 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 23 Sep 13 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 24 Sep 13 - 03:15 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 24 Sep 13 - 04:06 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Sep 13 - 05:36 AM
GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth 24 Sep 13 - 06:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Sep 13 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 24 Sep 13 - 07:08 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 24 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM
Jack the Sailor 24 Sep 13 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 24 Sep 13 - 02:45 PM
Stringsinger 24 Sep 13 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 24 Sep 13 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 24 Sep 13 - 05:35 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Sep 13 - 05:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Sep 13 - 06:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 25 Sep 13 - 02:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Sep 13 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,Musket being serious 25 Sep 13 - 03:57 AM
Stu 25 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Sep 13 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 25 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Sep 13 - 07:49 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 13 - 12:26 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 26 Sep 13 - 01:06 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 26 Sep 13 - 04:05 AM
Stu 26 Sep 13 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 26 Sep 13 - 07:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Sep 13 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,KEMAT 26 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM
Stringsinger 26 Sep 13 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Musket can't wait to tell all 26 Sep 13 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 26 Sep 13 - 02:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 13 - 05:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Sep 13 - 06:09 PM
Stringsinger 26 Sep 13 - 06:18 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 13 - 06:39 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 13 - 06:53 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 13 - 07:46 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Sep 13 - 07:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 26 Sep 13 - 10:29 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 27 Sep 13 - 01:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 13 - 02:56 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 27 Sep 13 - 03:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 27 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 27 Sep 13 - 05:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 13 - 05:56 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 27 Sep 13 - 08:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Sep 13 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 27 Sep 13 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Sep 13 - 12:26 PM
Mr Happy 27 Sep 13 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 27 Sep 13 - 06:05 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 13 - 08:45 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Sep 13 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 28 Sep 13 - 06:41 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 13 - 10:11 AM
Stu 28 Sep 13 - 10:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Sep 13 - 04:57 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 13 - 05:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 28 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Sep 13 - 08:47 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 29 Sep 13 - 03:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 13 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Musket nodding 29 Sep 13 - 05:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 13 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 29 Sep 13 - 07:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 29 Sep 13 - 10:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Sep 13 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 29 Sep 13 - 11:53 PM
GUEST,Musket not flying till tonight 30 Sep 13 - 02:53 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 30 Sep 13 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Sep 13 - 03:22 AM
Stu 30 Sep 13 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 30 Sep 13 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 30 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM
Stu 01 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 01 Oct 13 - 04:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Oct 13 - 06:55 AM
Dave Hanson 01 Oct 13 - 07:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 01 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 01 Oct 13 - 12:30 PM
saulgoldie 01 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Oct 13 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 01 Oct 13 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Blandiver 01 Oct 13 - 05:21 PM
Stu 01 Oct 13 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 01 Oct 13 - 07:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Oct 13 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 02 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 02 Oct 13 - 02:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 02 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Musket pissing himself laughing 02 Oct 13 - 09:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Oct 13 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 Oct 13 - 03:44 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 03 Oct 13 - 04:01 AM
Stu 03 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Grishka 03 Oct 13 - 06:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Oct 13 - 06:56 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 03 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 03 Oct 13 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 03 Oct 13 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,Grishka 03 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 03 Oct 13 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth 03 Oct 13 - 08:50 PM
akenaton 04 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,Musket lowering himself 04 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM
Stu 04 Oct 13 - 07:38 AM
akenaton 04 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 04 Oct 13 - 06:31 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 04 Oct 13 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 05 Oct 13 - 03:12 AM
akenaton 05 Oct 13 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 05 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM
Stu 05 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 05 Oct 13 - 06:24 AM
Stu 05 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM
akenaton 05 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 05 Oct 13 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,Musket sans Ian 05 Oct 13 - 09:31 PM
akenaton 06 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 06 Oct 13 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Grishka 06 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM
Stu 06 Oct 13 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Oct 13 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 06 Oct 13 - 11:18 AM
Stu 06 Oct 13 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 06 Oct 13 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Oct 13 - 09:41 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 07 Oct 13 - 02:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Oct 13 - 03:45 AM
Stu 07 Oct 13 - 04:02 AM
GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened 07 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 07 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 13 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 07 Oct 13 - 12:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 13 - 12:22 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 13 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened 07 Oct 13 - 03:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 13 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 07 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 13 - 05:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 13 - 05:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Oct 13 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 07 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 08 Oct 13 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 08 Oct 13 - 03:59 AM
Stu 08 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 08 Oct 13 - 04:54 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 08 Oct 13 - 03:56 PM
GUEST,Grishka 08 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 08 Oct 13 - 08:14 PM
GUEST,Grishka 09 Oct 13 - 05:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Oct 13 - 08:24 AM
GUEST 09 Oct 13 - 09:24 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 09 Oct 13 - 10:57 AM
akenaton 09 Oct 13 - 11:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Oct 13 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 09 Oct 13 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 09 Oct 13 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 09 Oct 13 - 08:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 02:52 AM
TheSnail 10 Oct 13 - 05:30 AM
Stu 10 Oct 13 - 05:40 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM
Jack the Sailor 10 Oct 13 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 10 Oct 13 - 03:20 PM
GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened 10 Oct 13 - 03:24 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Oct 13 - 03:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Oct 13 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Grishka 10 Oct 13 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Oct 13 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 10 Oct 13 - 11:46 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Oct 13 - 03:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Oct 13 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 07:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Oct 13 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Blandiver 11 Oct 13 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 11 Oct 13 - 02:09 PM
GUEST 12 Oct 13 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 12 Oct 13 - 07:25 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 13 - 08:08 AM
Stringsinger 12 Oct 13 - 08:59 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 12 Oct 13 - 09:53 AM
Stu 12 Oct 13 - 10:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 12 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 12 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 13 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 12 Oct 13 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Oct 13 - 03:03 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 13 - 03:57 PM
TheSnail 12 Oct 13 - 08:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 13 Oct 13 - 01:13 AM
GUEST,Musket impersonating Dr Johnson 13 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 13 Oct 13 - 08:33 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 13 - 08:49 AM
Stu 13 Oct 13 - 11:40 AM
GUEST,Musket doing Dr Johnson again 13 Oct 13 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Oct 13 - 12:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Oct 13 - 02:06 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 13 Oct 13 - 04:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Oct 13 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 13 Oct 13 - 04:56 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 13 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 13 - 08:38 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Oct 13 - 03:28 AM
Stu 14 Oct 13 - 05:43 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Oct 13 - 06:35 AM
TheSnail 14 Oct 13 - 06:58 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Oct 13 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Oct 13 - 08:46 AM
Stu 14 Oct 13 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,musket smiling 14 Oct 13 - 09:09 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Oct 13 - 09:41 AM
TheSnail 14 Oct 13 - 11:19 AM
TheSnail 14 Oct 13 - 11:25 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 13 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 14 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Oct 13 - 11:47 AM
Stringsinger 14 Oct 13 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 14 Oct 13 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Oct 13 - 12:49 PM
TheSnail 14 Oct 13 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Oct 13 - 03:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM
Steve Shaw 14 Oct 13 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 14 Oct 13 - 07:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 03:00 AM
Stu 15 Oct 13 - 05:08 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 15 Oct 13 - 05:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 06:18 AM
TheSnail 15 Oct 13 - 06:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 07:32 AM
TheSnail 15 Oct 13 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 08:13 AM
TheSnail 15 Oct 13 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 08:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 13 - 08:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 09:19 AM
TheSnail 15 Oct 13 - 09:35 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 09:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 15 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM
TheSnail 15 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 10:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 10:35 AM
TheSnail 15 Oct 13 - 01:16 PM
GUEST,Musket smiling 15 Oct 13 - 02:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 04:00 PM
TheSnail 15 Oct 13 - 04:38 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Oct 13 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Oct 13 - 05:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Oct 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Oct 13 - 06:16 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Oct 13 - 03:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 13 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 13 - 05:34 AM
Stu 16 Oct 13 - 07:03 AM
GUEST 16 Oct 13 - 07:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Oct 13 - 08:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Oct 13 - 09:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 13 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Oct 13 - 09:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 13 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Oct 13 - 12:20 PM
Stu 16 Oct 13 - 12:56 PM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Oct 13 - 01:12 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM
GUEST,Musket throwing up 16 Oct 13 - 02:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 Oct 13 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 16 Oct 13 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Oct 13 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 16 Oct 13 - 05:48 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 13 - 09:24 PM
Stu 17 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 17 Oct 13 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened 17 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 17 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM
GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened 17 Oct 13 - 02:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 13 - 02:32 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 13 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Oct 13 - 05:32 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 13 - 11:59 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Oct 13 - 02:29 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Oct 13 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 13 - 06:15 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Oct 13 - 06:53 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM
Stu 18 Oct 13 - 07:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Oct 13 - 12:09 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 13 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Grishka 18 Oct 13 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 18 Oct 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Oct 13 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 13 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 13 - 08:11 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 19 Oct 13 - 03:15 AM
akenaton 19 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,Grishka 19 Oct 13 - 07:06 AM
TheSnail 19 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Oct 13 - 08:26 AM
GUEST,Musket shaking his head 19 Oct 13 - 08:27 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 13 - 09:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Oct 13 - 09:20 AM
GUEST,Grishka 19 Oct 13 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Oct 13 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened 19 Oct 13 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Oct 13 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Oct 13 - 05:06 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 13 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Grishka 20 Oct 13 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,musket to Goofus 20 Oct 13 - 05:12 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Oct 13 - 06:22 AM
akenaton 20 Oct 13 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 20 Oct 13 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 20 Oct 13 - 12:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 13 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 20 Oct 13 - 01:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Oct 13 - 03:02 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 13 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,Musket musing (the tablets don't work) 22 Oct 13 - 03:14 AM
Stu 22 Oct 13 - 04:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 13 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 22 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 13 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 22 Oct 13 - 06:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 13 - 07:42 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Oct 13 - 09:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 13 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Oct 13 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 22 Oct 13 - 02:58 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 13 - 03:08 PM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 22 Oct 13 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 Oct 13 - 03:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 13 - 04:10 PM
akenaton 22 Oct 13 - 04:48 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 22 Oct 13 - 05:50 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 13 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 22 Oct 13 - 06:19 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Oct 13 - 06:57 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 23 Oct 13 - 03:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Oct 13 - 03:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 13 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,Musket smiling 23 Oct 13 - 04:33 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 23 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 23 Oct 13 - 06:39 AM
GUEST,Musket wondering 23 Oct 13 - 07:20 AM
Stu 23 Oct 13 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,the artist forsmelly known as concerened 23 Oct 13 - 08:07 AM
GUEST,Musket baying at the moon 23 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 13 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 23 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 23 Oct 13 - 10:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Oct 13 - 01:42 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Oct 13 - 02:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Oct 13 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 23 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 24 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,the artist forsmelly known as concerened 24 Oct 13 - 08:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 13 - 09:20 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 13 - 11:16 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 13 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 24 Oct 13 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend 24 Oct 13 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 24 Oct 13 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 13 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 24 Oct 13 - 06:16 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 25 Oct 13 - 01:26 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 25 Oct 13 - 03:03 AM
Stu 25 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM
TheSnail 26 Oct 13 - 08:30 AM
GUEST,Grishka 26 Oct 13 - 10:22 AM
akenaton 26 Oct 13 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,Grishka 26 Oct 13 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Musket sans logic 26 Oct 13 - 12:56 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Oct 13 - 08:37 PM
akenaton 27 Oct 13 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Musket popping up here too 27 Oct 13 - 06:11 AM
akenaton 27 Oct 13 - 06:28 AM
akenaton 27 Oct 13 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 27 Oct 13 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 27 Oct 13 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Musket sans reality 27 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM
akenaton 27 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend 27 Oct 13 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 13 - 05:56 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 13 - 06:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 13 - 06:11 PM
akenaton 27 Oct 13 - 06:23 PM
akenaton 27 Oct 13 - 07:01 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 28 Oct 13 - 02:23 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Oct 13 - 03:46 AM
akenaton 28 Oct 13 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 28 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM
akenaton 28 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 28 Oct 13 - 06:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 06:48 AM
TheSnail 28 Oct 13 - 07:12 AM
TheSnail 28 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 28 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 28 Oct 13 - 08:50 AM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Oct 13 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 10:38 AM
Stu 28 Oct 13 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 28 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Oct 13 - 12:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Musket with red nose 28 Oct 13 - 01:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 01:24 PM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Oct 13 - 01:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 01:57 PM
akenaton 28 Oct 13 - 02:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 28 Oct 13 - 03:35 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 13 - 05:15 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 13 - 05:22 PM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Oct 13 - 05:25 PM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 13 - 06:30 PM
GUEST,Grishka 28 Oct 13 - 07:22 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 13 - 09:04 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Oct 13 - 09:06 PM
akenaton 29 Oct 13 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Oct 13 - 05:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,Musket clarifying 29 Oct 13 - 06:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 13 - 06:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Oct 13 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Oct 13 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 29 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM
TheSnail 29 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM
TheSnail 29 Oct 13 - 08:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 13 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 29 Oct 13 - 09:51 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Oct 13 - 10:07 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Oct 13 - 11:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 29 Oct 13 - 11:56 AM
GUEST 29 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM
Stu 29 Oct 13 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Oct 13 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerend 29 Oct 13 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 29 Oct 13 - 02:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 13 - 04:04 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Oct 13 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Grishka 29 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 30 Oct 13 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,Grishka 30 Oct 13 - 05:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Oct 13 - 06:40 AM
Stu 30 Oct 13 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 30 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 13 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 30 Oct 13 - 07:41 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 13 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 31 Oct 13 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 31 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Oct 13 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Musket again 31 Oct 13 - 09:59 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 31 Oct 13 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Oct 13 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Musket bashful 31 Oct 13 - 12:46 PM
Stu 31 Oct 13 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,the artist forsmelly known as concerened 31 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Oct 13 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Oct 13 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,the ar tist formally known as concerened 31 Oct 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Oct 13 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 31 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 31 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM
GUEST,Grishka 31 Oct 13 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Oct 13 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 01 Nov 13 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 01 Nov 13 - 04:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Nov 13 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 01 Nov 13 - 07:24 AM
Stu 01 Nov 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 01 Nov 13 - 03:20 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 13 - 04:06 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 13 - 04:07 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 01 Nov 13 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 01 Nov 13 - 05:02 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 01 Nov 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 01 Nov 13 - 05:29 PM
GUEST,Grishka 01 Nov 13 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 01 Nov 13 - 08:01 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Nov 13 - 09:35 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 02 Nov 13 - 03:41 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 02 Nov 13 - 04:23 AM
GUEST,Grishka 02 Nov 13 - 07:05 AM
TheSnail 02 Nov 13 - 09:00 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Nov 13 - 09:41 AM
Stu 02 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 02 Nov 13 - 12:19 PM
akenaton 02 Nov 13 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 02 Nov 13 - 01:02 PM
GUEST,Grishka 02 Nov 13 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Musket 02 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Musket again 02 Nov 13 - 03:47 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Nov 13 - 07:45 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Nov 13 - 08:15 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Nov 13 - 08:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Nov 13 - 08:40 PM
akenaton 02 Nov 13 - 08:43 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Nov 13 - 09:36 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 03 Nov 13 - 03:40 AM
GUEST,Grishka 03 Nov 13 - 05:08 AM
akenaton 03 Nov 13 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Nov 13 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 03 Nov 13 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Nov 13 - 07:47 AM
akenaton 03 Nov 13 - 07:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Nov 13 - 07:57 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Nov 13 - 10:25 AM
Stu 03 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 03 Nov 13 - 02:33 PM
GUEST 03 Nov 13 - 05:54 PM
TheSnail 03 Nov 13 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 03 Nov 13 - 06:23 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Nov 13 - 07:07 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 04 Nov 13 - 01:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Nov 13 - 02:34 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Nov 13 - 03:53 AM
Stu 04 Nov 13 - 04:29 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 13 - 04:41 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 13 - 04:45 AM
GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend 04 Nov 13 - 04:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Nov 13 - 05:25 AM
GUEST,Musket being spherical 04 Nov 13 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,Musket's new game 04 Nov 13 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Muskets's new game 04 Nov 13 - 07:22 AM
GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend 04 Nov 13 - 07:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Nov 13 - 11:37 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 04 Nov 13 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,the artist forsmeltingly noun as concerend 04 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Musket the game master 04 Nov 13 - 12:21 PM
TheSnail 04 Nov 13 - 03:33 PM
akenaton 04 Nov 13 - 03:46 PM
TheSnail 04 Nov 13 - 05:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Nov 13 - 05:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Nov 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Musket 04 Nov 13 - 06:01 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 13 - 06:56 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Nov 13 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 05 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM
TheSnail 05 Nov 13 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 05 Nov 13 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened 05 Nov 13 - 08:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 13 - 09:53 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 05 Nov 13 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Nov 13 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 05 Nov 13 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 05 Nov 13 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,the artist formilly noan as consernd 05 Nov 13 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Musket 05 Nov 13 - 01:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Nov 13 - 02:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Nov 13 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 05 Nov 13 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 05 Nov 13 - 07:57 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Nov 13 - 08:35 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Nov 13 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Nov 13 - 01:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM
GUEST 06 Nov 13 - 04:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 04:22 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 06 Nov 13 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 06:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 13 - 08:48 AM
Stu 06 Nov 13 - 08:55 AM
TheSnail 06 Nov 13 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 06 Nov 13 - 09:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,Grishka 06 Nov 13 - 10:38 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 13 - 11:17 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 13 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Musket in messiah mode 06 Nov 13 - 12:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 13 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Grishka 06 Nov 13 - 01:25 PM
GUEST,Musket extracting the urine 06 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 13 - 02:29 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 13 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 06 Nov 13 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 06 Nov 13 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 06 Nov 13 - 03:21 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 06 Nov 13 - 03:28 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Nov 13 - 04:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 13 - 04:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Nov 13 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Grishka 06 Nov 13 - 05:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 13 - 06:03 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 07 Nov 13 - 02:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 02:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,Grishka 07 Nov 13 - 05:01 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Nov 13 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 07 Nov 13 - 10:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 10:31 AM
Stu 07 Nov 13 - 11:43 AM
GUEST,Musket 07 Nov 13 - 11:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 07 Nov 13 - 03:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 13 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 07 Nov 13 - 04:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Nov 13 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Nov 13 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 07 Nov 13 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Grishka 07 Nov 13 - 06:33 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Nov 13 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 08 Nov 13 - 01:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Nov 13 - 04:03 AM
Stu 08 Nov 13 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 08 Nov 13 - 12:36 PM
Steve Shaw 08 Nov 13 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 08 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Nov 13 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,Musket getting jealous 09 Nov 13 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 09 Nov 13 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 09 Nov 13 - 10:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 09 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Musket c/w aftershave 09 Nov 13 - 12:08 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 13 - 12:40 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Nov 13 - 12:43 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 09 Nov 13 - 02:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 13 - 05:02 AM
GUEST 10 Nov 13 - 06:41 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 10 Nov 13 - 09:02 AM
Stu 10 Nov 13 - 09:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 13 - 09:22 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 10 Nov 13 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Nov 13 - 10:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 13 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,Musket the missionary man 10 Nov 13 - 11:35 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 13 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 10 Nov 13 - 04:41 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 10 Nov 13 - 05:24 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 13 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 10 Nov 13 - 06:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 13 - 07:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Nov 13 - 07:09 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Nov 13 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,Musket living the dream 11 Nov 13 - 01:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 03:09 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Nov 13 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,Musket 11 Nov 13 - 05:29 AM
TheSnail 11 Nov 13 - 06:17 AM
Stu 11 Nov 13 - 07:43 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 11 Nov 13 - 07:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Musket loves ginger nuts 11 Nov 13 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 08:22 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 11 Nov 13 - 08:55 AM
Greg F. 11 Nov 13 - 08:56 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 13 - 09:10 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 13 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Musket on a roll 11 Nov 13 - 10:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Nov 13 - 10:08 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Nov 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 11 Nov 13 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,musket with pan handle 11 Nov 13 - 12:47 PM
Stu 11 Nov 13 - 12:50 PM
GUEST,Musket with bad news 11 Nov 13 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 11 Nov 13 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened 11 Nov 13 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Nov 13 - 07:38 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 11 Nov 13 - 10:04 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 12 Nov 13 - 02:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Nov 13 - 03:03 AM
Stu 12 Nov 13 - 04:19 AM
TheSnail 12 Nov 13 - 05:30 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 12 Nov 13 - 05:44 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 13 - 06:13 AM
GUEST,the troll formally the troll called conceren 12 Nov 13 - 06:36 AM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 13 - 06:44 AM
Stu 12 Nov 13 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Nov 13 - 02:30 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Nov 13 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 13 Nov 13 - 04:15 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 13 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Musket examining machine in gents 13 Nov 13 - 06:21 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 13 Nov 13 - 06:42 AM
Stu 13 Nov 13 - 06:51 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 13 - 07:48 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 13 Nov 13 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 13 Nov 13 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 13 Nov 13 - 05:52 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 13 - 06:08 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Nov 13 - 06:14 PM
TheSnail 13 Nov 13 - 08:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 13 - 02:53 AM
Stu 14 Nov 13 - 10:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 Nov 13 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 14 Nov 13 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Nov 13 - 02:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 13 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 14 Nov 13 - 04:23 PM
akenaton 14 Nov 13 - 05:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 13 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 15 Nov 13 - 04:41 AM
GUEST,the troll not really a troll? 15 Nov 13 - 07:12 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 13 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Musket the repeater 15 Nov 13 - 08:44 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 15 Nov 13 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Nov 13 - 03:35 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Nov 13 - 08:49 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Nov 13 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll 16 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Nov 13 - 07:19 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 16 Nov 13 - 10:28 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Nov 13 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 16 Nov 13 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 16 Nov 13 - 06:39 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Nov 13 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 17 Nov 13 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 17 Nov 13 - 04:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Musket blowing off 17 Nov 13 - 06:44 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 13 - 06:48 AM
Stu 17 Nov 13 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 17 Nov 13 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Musket getting frisky 17 Nov 13 - 10:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Nov 13 - 11:44 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 13 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 17 Nov 13 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll 17 Nov 13 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 17 Nov 13 - 05:32 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 13 - 06:47 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Nov 13 - 07:02 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Nov 13 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Musket mourning 18 Nov 13 - 04:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 13 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 18 Nov 13 - 07:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 13 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 18 Nov 13 - 07:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 13 - 08:03 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Nov 13 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Nov 13 - 09:33 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Nov 13 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 18 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 13 - 01:55 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Nov 13 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 18 Nov 13 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Musket the missionary man 18 Nov 13 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 18 Nov 13 - 06:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 13 - 06:33 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 19 Nov 13 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,troll from knott end 19 Nov 13 - 04:08 AM
GUEST,Musket musing 19 Nov 13 - 06:06 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Nov 13 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 19 Nov 13 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,musket floating 19 Nov 13 - 03:12 PM
Musket 20 Nov 13 - 08:34 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 13 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 20 Nov 13 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 20 Nov 13 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll? 20 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Nov 13 - 04:32 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Nov 13 - 07:23 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 21 Nov 13 - 02:35 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 13 - 05:48 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Nov 13 - 12:45 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Nov 13 - 07:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 13 - 03:51 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Nov 13 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 13 - 04:57 AM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 22 Nov 13 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 13 - 10:09 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 13 - 10:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 13 - 10:16 AM
GUEST,Musket 22 Nov 13 - 10:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Nov 13 - 11:00 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 Nov 13 - 12:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Nov 13 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Musket 22 Nov 13 - 03:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 13 - 04:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Nov 13 - 04:42 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 22 Nov 13 - 06:02 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Nov 13 - 08:10 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 23 Nov 13 - 02:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 02:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 03:02 AM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 23 Nov 13 - 04:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 05:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 05:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 13 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Musket between courses 23 Nov 13 - 08:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Musket 23 Nov 13 - 12:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 12:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 13 - 01:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 01:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Nov 13 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Musket curious 24 Nov 13 - 02:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 13 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Musket pissing himself 24 Nov 13 - 05:20 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 24 Nov 13 - 05:43 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 24 Nov 13 - 05:48 AM
GUEST,Musket giggling 24 Nov 13 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 13 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Nov 13 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 13 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 13 - 05:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Nov 13 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Nov 13 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,jts 24 Nov 13 - 10:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 02:04 AM
GUEST,musket and Keith Show 25 Nov 13 - 02:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 13 - 05:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 06:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Nov 13 - 06:27 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 13 - 06:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 07:20 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 13 - 07:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 08:08 AM
GUEST,Musket laughing 25 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 08:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 08:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 08:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 25 Nov 13 - 09:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 09:27 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Nov 13 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,Musket 25 Nov 13 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 25 Nov 13 - 11:37 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Nov 13 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Musket 25 Nov 13 - 12:43 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Nov 13 - 12:52 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Nov 13 - 12:55 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 03:02 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 13 - 03:42 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 13 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Musket between courses 25 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Nov 13 - 05:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 05:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Nov 13 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,musket 25 Nov 13 - 06:15 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 13 - 06:56 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Nov 13 - 06:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 02:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Nov 13 - 03:35 AM
GUEST,musket giggling 26 Nov 13 - 04:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 26 Nov 13 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 26 Nov 13 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 26 Nov 13 - 08:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Nov 13 - 08:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 26 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 26 Nov 13 - 09:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Nov 13 - 10:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 26 Nov 13 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Musket remembering 26 Nov 13 - 11:16 AM
Stringsinger 26 Nov 13 - 02:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Nov 13 - 02:44 PM
akenaton 26 Nov 13 - 05:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Nov 13 - 05:44 PM
GUEST 27 Nov 13 - 08:14 PM
GUEST,musket again 28 Nov 13 - 02:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Nov 13 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Nov 13 - 08:04 AM
GUEST,JTS 28 Nov 13 - 01:07 PM
GUEST,musket giggling 28 Nov 13 - 04:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Nov 13 - 04:17 PM
akenaton 28 Nov 13 - 06:27 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Nov 13 - 09:45 PM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,musket again 29 Nov 13 - 04:28 AM
akenaton 29 Nov 13 - 04:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 13 - 04:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 13 - 05:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Nov 13 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 29 Nov 13 - 06:31 AM
akenaton 29 Nov 13 - 06:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 29 Nov 13 - 08:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Nov 13 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 13 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Musket Mexicana. 29 Nov 13 - 10:48 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Nov 13 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,Musket reminiscing 29 Nov 13 - 11:21 AM
akenaton 29 Nov 13 - 11:33 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 30 Nov 13 - 06:22 AM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 30 Nov 13 - 07:59 AM
GUEST,Musket 30 Nov 13 - 12:03 PM
akenaton 01 Dec 13 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,musket again 01 Dec 13 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,musket again 01 Dec 13 - 06:52 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Dec 13 - 06:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Dec 13 - 09:25 AM
GUEST 01 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM
GUEST,musket 01 Dec 13 - 11:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 13 - 11:17 AM
akenaton 01 Dec 13 - 11:43 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Dec 13 - 11:56 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Dec 13 - 11:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 13 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Musket 01 Dec 13 - 12:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 13 - 12:51 PM
Greg F. 01 Dec 13 - 01:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Dec 13 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,Musket 01 Dec 13 - 03:49 PM
akenaton 01 Dec 13 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Musket 01 Dec 13 - 05:17 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Dec 13 - 05:58 PM
GUEST 01 Dec 13 - 07:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 13 - 02:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Dec 13 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,musket giggling 02 Dec 13 - 03:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 13 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,musket again 02 Dec 13 - 06:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 13 - 10:01 AM
GUEST,musket 02 Dec 13 - 10:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM
Greg F. 02 Dec 13 - 10:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM
akenaton 02 Dec 13 - 01:13 PM
akenaton 02 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,musket noting 02 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 02 Dec 13 - 02:53 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 13 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 02 Dec 13 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Musket 02 Dec 13 - 03:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Dec 13 - 03:38 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 13 - 03:57 PM
akenaton 02 Dec 13 - 03:58 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Dec 13 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,musket again 03 Dec 13 - 01:14 AM
akenaton 03 Dec 13 - 05:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Dec 13 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,the troll replacing the troll who was really 03 Dec 13 - 06:48 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Dec 13 - 11:50 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 03 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Dec 13 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Musket 03 Dec 13 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 03 Dec 13 - 03:15 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Dec 13 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,musket giggling 04 Dec 13 - 01:06 AM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 04 Dec 13 - 07:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Dec 13 - 07:49 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 04 Dec 13 - 02:59 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 13 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll 04 Dec 13 - 04:01 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 13 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,jts 04 Dec 13 - 04:26 PM
Jack Blandiver 04 Dec 13 - 04:42 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 04:58 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 04 Dec 13 - 05:00 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 05:03 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 05:05 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 13 - 05:07 PM
GUEST,Grishka 04 Dec 13 - 05:13 PM
Greg F. 04 Dec 13 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 04 Dec 13 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,jts 04 Dec 13 - 05:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Dec 13 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 07:01 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 13 - 07:02 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 13 - 07:17 PM
GUEST,:-) 04 Dec 13 - 07:21 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 07:39 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 13 - 07:56 PM
GUEST 04 Dec 13 - 08:20 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Dec 13 - 08:56 PM
Don Firth 04 Dec 13 - 11:13 PM
GUEST 05 Dec 13 - 12:11 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Dec 13 - 07:25 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Dec 13 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 05 Dec 13 - 07:47 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM
GUEST 05 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Dec 13 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 05 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Dec 13 - 01:10 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 05 Dec 13 - 01:43 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 13 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,musket again 05 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Dec 13 - 04:12 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Dec 13 - 04:17 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 13 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 05 Dec 13 - 05:06 PM
Don Firth 05 Dec 13 - 06:09 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Dec 13 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,musket again 06 Dec 13 - 03:13 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 07 Dec 13 - 07:12 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Dec 13 - 08:26 PM
GUEST,Musket 08 Dec 13 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 08 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 08 Dec 13 - 12:57 PM
akenaton 08 Dec 13 - 01:25 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 13 - 01:38 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 13 - 02:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Dec 13 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 Dec 13 - 02:37 PM
Greg F. 08 Dec 13 - 03:33 PM
Don Firth 08 Dec 13 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,A.Coward 08 Dec 13 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,musket drooling 08 Dec 13 - 04:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Dec 13 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 10 Dec 13 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,musket giggling 11 Dec 13 - 01:12 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 11 Dec 13 - 07:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 13 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Musket 11 Dec 13 - 10:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM
Don Firth 11 Dec 13 - 02:36 PM
Stu 11 Dec 13 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,musket again 11 Dec 13 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 11 Dec 13 - 05:51 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 13 - 06:39 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 13 - 07:54 PM
Don Firth 11 Dec 13 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,musket again 12 Dec 13 - 01:16 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 12 Dec 13 - 02:21 PM
Don Firth 12 Dec 13 - 04:05 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM
Don Firth 12 Dec 13 - 06:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 13 - 02:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Dec 13 - 02:10 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 13 Dec 13 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 13 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM
Don Firth 13 Dec 13 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Musket 14 Dec 13 - 03:06 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Dec 13 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 Dec 13 - 06:53 AM
Stu 14 Dec 13 - 07:04 AM
akenaton 14 Dec 13 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Musket smiling 14 Dec 13 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Dec 13 - 10:02 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 14 Dec 13 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Musket 15 Dec 13 - 03:11 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Dec 13 - 04:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM
GUEST,Grishka 15 Dec 13 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 15 Dec 13 - 06:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Dec 13 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as the troll concer 15 Dec 13 - 09:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Dec 13 - 10:16 AM
Stu 15 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 15 Dec 13 - 10:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM
akenaton 15 Dec 13 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 15 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Dec 13 - 04:51 PM
akenaton 15 Dec 13 - 05:11 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Dec 13 - 02:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Dec 13 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Grishka 16 Dec 13 - 05:00 AM
akenaton 16 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Dec 13 - 05:51 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Dec 13 - 05:54 AM
Stu 16 Dec 13 - 06:15 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 07:02 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 16 Dec 13 - 08:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Dec 13 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Musket 16 Dec 13 - 08:49 AM
akenaton 16 Dec 13 - 09:03 AM
Stu 16 Dec 13 - 09:32 AM
akenaton 16 Dec 13 - 10:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Dec 13 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 16 Dec 13 - 01:09 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 13 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Dec 13 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 16 Dec 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 16 Dec 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 16 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 16 Dec 13 - 04:32 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Dec 13 - 06:45 PM
akenaton 16 Dec 13 - 06:48 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Dec 13 - 07:01 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Dec 13 - 07:09 PM
Stu 17 Dec 13 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Dec 13 - 09:15 AM
Greg F. 17 Dec 13 - 09:53 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Dec 13 - 10:18 AM
Stu 17 Dec 13 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 Dec 13 - 11:52 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Dec 13 - 01:21 PM
Jack the Sailor 17 Dec 13 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 17 Dec 13 - 02:22 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Dec 13 - 06:14 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Dec 13 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 17 Dec 13 - 06:25 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Dec 13 - 07:55 PM
GUEST,Musket 18 Dec 13 - 01:25 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Dec 13 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Dec 13 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Dec 13 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM
Stu 18 Dec 13 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 18 Dec 13 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 18 Dec 13 - 06:21 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 13 - 06:51 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Dec 13 - 06:53 PM
Greg F. 18 Dec 13 - 08:08 PM
GUEST,Musket 19 Dec 13 - 01:34 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 19 Dec 13 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Musket again 19 Dec 13 - 04:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 Dec 13 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 19 Dec 13 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Musket 19 Dec 13 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Dec 13 - 05:31 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Dec 13 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 20 Dec 13 - 02:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Dec 13 - 03:05 AM
GUEST,Musket 20 Dec 13 - 03:20 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 20 Dec 13 - 04:37 AM
Stu 20 Dec 13 - 10:36 AM
GUEST,Musket 20 Dec 13 - 11:08 AM
Stu 20 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM
GUEST,Musket 20 Dec 13 - 01:12 PM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 20 Dec 13 - 02:02 PM
GUEST,troll replacing the troll who is not a troll 20 Dec 13 - 02:52 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 13 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,the troll who is not a troll 20 Dec 13 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 20 Dec 13 - 04:15 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 20 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Dec 13 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,Musket 21 Dec 13 - 02:30 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 21 Dec 13 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 13 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Dec 13 - 10:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 13 - 10:43 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Dec 13 - 12:26 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Dec 13 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 13 - 03:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Dec 13 - 04:56 PM
akenaton 22 Dec 13 - 07:24 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 13 - 10:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 Dec 13 - 04:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Dec 13 - 05:09 AM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 07:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Dec 13 - 07:29 AM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 08:24 AM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 08:38 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 Dec 13 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 Dec 13 - 11:51 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Dec 13 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Musket 23 Dec 13 - 01:34 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 02:25 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 02:49 PM
Joe Offer 23 Dec 13 - 03:02 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Musket 23 Dec 13 - 03:49 PM
Elmore 23 Dec 13 - 04:19 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Dec 13 - 06:36 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 06:45 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Dec 13 - 06:51 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Dec 13 - 01:22 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Dec 13 - 02:52 AM
akenaton 24 Dec 13 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Dec 13 - 04:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Dec 13 - 05:21 AM
Joe Offer 24 Dec 13 - 05:53 AM
Joe Offer 24 Dec 13 - 06:04 AM
akenaton 24 Dec 13 - 06:37 AM
Joe Offer 24 Dec 13 - 06:43 AM
akenaton 24 Dec 13 - 07:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Dec 13 - 08:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Dec 13 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 24 Dec 13 - 08:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Dec 13 - 09:52 AM
Stu 24 Dec 13 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 24 Dec 13 - 11:39 AM
akenaton 24 Dec 13 - 01:46 PM
Joe Offer 24 Dec 13 - 01:53 PM
akenaton 24 Dec 13 - 02:29 PM
Stu 24 Dec 13 - 08:22 PM
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GUEST,Jack Blandiver 25 Dec 13 - 06:48 AM
akenaton 25 Dec 13 - 09:17 AM
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akenaton 25 Dec 13 - 02:27 PM
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akenaton 26 Dec 13 - 09:06 AM
GUEST,Musket 26 Dec 13 - 10:54 AM
akenaton 26 Dec 13 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Musket 26 Dec 13 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link. 26 Dec 13 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Jack Blandiver 26 Dec 13 - 02:18 PM
akenaton 26 Dec 13 - 03:42 PM
akenaton 26 Dec 13 - 04:04 PM
akenaton 26 Dec 13 - 05:12 PM
Greg F. 26 Dec 13 - 05:30 PM
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Steve Shaw 26 Dec 13 - 08:31 PM
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Stu 27 Dec 13 - 05:33 AM
akenaton 27 Dec 13 - 07:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Dec 13 - 08:41 AM
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GUEST,The troll formally known as the troll conce 27 Dec 13 - 09:44 AM
Stu 27 Dec 13 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Musket nodding 27 Dec 13 - 10:45 AM
akenaton 27 Dec 13 - 11:19 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 12:31 PM
Stu 27 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Dec 13 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Dec 13 - 12:52 PM
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akenaton 27 Dec 13 - 07:10 PM
Bill D 27 Dec 13 - 07:48 PM
Don Firth 28 Dec 13 - 01:17 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 02:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 03:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 03:30 AM
akenaton 28 Dec 13 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 05:46 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 08:04 AM
akenaton 28 Dec 13 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Musket 28 Dec 13 - 11:00 AM
Stu 28 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM
akenaton 28 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM
Bill D 28 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Dec 13 - 02:07 PM
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akenaton 29 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 04:20 AM
akenaton 29 Dec 13 - 04:43 AM
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Bill D 29 Dec 13 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Musket 29 Dec 13 - 12:17 PM
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GUEST,Musket 29 Dec 13 - 12:58 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM
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GUEST,Musket 29 Dec 13 - 03:53 PM
akenaton 29 Dec 13 - 04:08 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 04:46 AM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 04:57 AM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Musket 30 Dec 13 - 05:18 AM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Musket 30 Dec 13 - 07:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Dec 13 - 09:39 AM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 09:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 09:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 10:06 AM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 12:31 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 01:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Dec 13 - 02:38 PM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 04:09 PM
akenaton 30 Dec 13 - 04:28 PM
Bill D 30 Dec 13 - 05:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Dec 13 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,Musket 30 Dec 13 - 05:15 PM
Bill D 30 Dec 13 - 05:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Dec 13 - 05:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Dec 13 - 05:47 PM
Bill D 30 Dec 13 - 05:57 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Dec 13 - 07:59 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Dec 13 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Musket 31 Dec 13 - 01:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 01:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 01:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 01:53 AM
akenaton 31 Dec 13 - 04:36 AM
akenaton 31 Dec 13 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Musket 31 Dec 13 - 06:25 AM
Stu 31 Dec 13 - 06:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Dec 13 - 07:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,the troll formally known as concerened 31 Dec 13 - 07:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 07:51 AM
GUEST,Musket 31 Dec 13 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 31 Dec 13 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 31 Dec 13 - 05:00 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 31 Dec 13 - 06:17 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 31 Dec 13 - 06:30 PM
Greg F. 31 Dec 13 - 06:35 PM
akenaton 01 Jan 14 - 04:06 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jan 14 - 11:37 AM
Bill D 01 Jan 14 - 01:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Musket 02 Jan 14 - 04:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 05:10 AM
Stu 02 Jan 14 - 07:04 AM
GUEST,Musket 02 Jan 14 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 09:07 AM
Bill D 02 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Musket 02 Jan 14 - 11:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 11:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Musket 02 Jan 14 - 12:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 12:59 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jan 14 - 01:12 PM
akenaton 02 Jan 14 - 01:19 PM
Bill D 02 Jan 14 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 02 Jan 14 - 02:36 PM
Greg F. 02 Jan 14 - 02:50 PM
Bill D 02 Jan 14 - 05:16 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 14 - 06:10 PM
Bill D 02 Jan 14 - 07:48 PM
Don Firth 02 Jan 14 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jan 14 - 08:56 PM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jan 14 - 03:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jan 14 - 04:43 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Grishka 03 Jan 14 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 05:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jan 14 - 06:17 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jan 14 - 08:15 AM
Stu 03 Jan 14 - 11:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jan 14 - 12:01 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 01:57 PM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jan 14 - 02:57 PM
GUEST,Jesus 03 Jan 14 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jan 14 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 03 Jan 14 - 07:21 PM
Don Firth 03 Jan 14 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 01:02 AM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jan 14 - 01:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jan 14 - 01:28 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 02:44 AM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jan 14 - 04:06 AM
akenaton 04 Jan 14 - 08:58 AM
akenaton 04 Jan 14 - 09:00 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 12:01 PM
Bill D 04 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM
Don Firth 04 Jan 14 - 01:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 14 - 01:54 PM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jan 14 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars 04 Jan 14 - 05:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 14 - 06:14 PM
Greg F. 04 Jan 14 - 06:42 PM
Don Firth 04 Jan 14 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 11:19 PM
Don Firth 05 Jan 14 - 12:21 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Jan 14 - 12:50 AM
Don Firth 05 Jan 14 - 01:36 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Jan 14 - 01:54 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jan 14 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jan 14 - 05:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 05:11 AM
akenaton 05 Jan 14 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jan 14 - 06:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 14 - 08:41 AM
akenaton 05 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM
akenaton 05 Jan 14 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jan 14 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Jan 14 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jan 14 - 01:44 PM
Bill D 05 Jan 14 - 02:08 PM
akenaton 05 Jan 14 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Jan 14 - 06:28 PM
Bill D 05 Jan 14 - 07:34 PM
Don Firth 05 Jan 14 - 08:42 PM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jan 14 - 01:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 02:54 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jan 14 - 03:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 04:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 04:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 14 - 04:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 14 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jan 14 - 04:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jan 14 - 11:20 AM
akenaton 06 Jan 14 - 12:03 PM
akenaton 06 Jan 14 - 12:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 14 - 12:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 14 - 01:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 14 - 02:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 14 - 02:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Jan 14 - 02:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jan 14 - 02:35 PM
akenaton 06 Jan 14 - 02:39 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 14 - 03:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Jan 14 - 04:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jan 14 - 05:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Jan 14 - 08:15 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Jan 14 - 03:29 AM
akenaton 07 Jan 14 - 04:19 AM
akenaton 07 Jan 14 - 04:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jan 14 - 04:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Musket 07 Jan 14 - 05:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jan 14 - 05:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jan 14 - 05:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jan 14 - 06:12 AM
akenaton 07 Jan 14 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,Pete from seven stars link 07 Jan 14 - 12:10 PM
Greg F. 07 Jan 14 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,Musket 07 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM
akenaton 07 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jan 14 - 01:50 PM
akenaton 07 Jan 14 - 03:07 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jan 14 - 03:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM
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akenaton 07 Jan 14 - 04:35 PM
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Jack the Sailor 07 Jan 14 - 04:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 Jan 14 - 06:11 PM
akenaton 07 Jan 14 - 06:11 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,Musket 08 Jan 14 - 01:24 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 02:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Jan 14 - 04:51 AM
GUEST,Musket 08 Jan 14 - 05:00 AM
akenaton 08 Jan 14 - 05:07 AM
akenaton 08 Jan 14 - 05:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 Jan 14 - 05:23 AM
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akenaton 08 Jan 14 - 12:44 PM
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akenaton 08 Jan 14 - 03:29 PM
akenaton 08 Jan 14 - 03:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Jan 14 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 04:53 PM
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GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 05:10 PM
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Greg F. 08 Jan 14 - 06:44 PM
Jack the Sailor 08 Jan 14 - 07:02 PM
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GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 11:23 PM
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GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Jan 14 - 04:24 AM
GUEST,Musket 09 Jan 14 - 04:58 AM
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GUEST,Musket swooning 09 Jan 14 - 10:37 AM
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Greg F. 09 Jan 14 - 12:05 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Jan 14 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,Musket 10 Jan 14 - 05:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Jan 14 - 05:41 AM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 10 Jan 14 - 07:55 PM
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Greg F. 10 Jan 14 - 08:13 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Jan 14 - 11:55 PM
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akenaton 17 Jan 14 - 05:22 PM
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GUEST,concerened 18 Jan 14 - 12:46 PM
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Jack the Sailor 18 Jan 14 - 02:48 PM
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GUEST,Musket 19 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM
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Jack the Sailor 19 Jan 14 - 02:56 PM
Don Firth 19 Jan 14 - 03:27 PM
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Subject: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 02:44 PM

Here are some questions offered to elevate the discussion on this thread.

Let's say for the sake of discussion that militant atheism is a religion.

To what god does this militant religion obey or pray to?

If it is a militant religion, does this mean it is a "bad" religion and should be censured?

Does this mean that any militant religion should be censured and attacked?

Should there be militant Protestant/Catholic, Judaic/Islamic, wars as well as Non-belief/Belief ones?

Is religion something that should never be criticized and held as somehow sacrosanct because it is a religion? How about the Crusades or beheadings in Islamic countries?

Atheists (militant or not) are attacked all the time. Does this mean that those religious adherents who do so are intolerant? (Rhetorical question, of course they are).

Are all "militant" atheists necessarily "anti-theist"?

Why are some militant atheists self-proclaimed agnostics and others not?

What rituals, rites, ceremonies, oblations or other church events do militant
atheists practice that make them militant atheists a religion?

Does saying that one is a Protestant mean that they automatically deride
Catholics? Does saying that one is a passionate (read militant) non-believer mean that
they deride believers?

Can militant atheists be considered holy? If they are a militant religion
then why not? Can there be a Saint Dawkins, Saint Hitchens or can they be popes
or monsignors or priests? Is that acceptable to those who attack atheists?

What bible do the militant atheists follow? The gospel according to Hitchens or
Dawkins or Harris? (They all differ if you bother to read them).

Do militant atheists believe in "just wars" like some Catholics do?

Anyone care to recite a militant "atheist prayer"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:01 PM

I refer the honourable gentleman to the previous thread.

Where, if he cared to read and understand, he would see that the premise of the thread title is false.   Honourable and right honourable members opposite fail to take into account that militant atheism is an oxymoron. Some people use the term in an assertive manner while for for the vast majority it means that religion is something to do with someone else.

In the meantime, the one true path consisting of co Messiahs and associated gnome holds the answers to such questions. Once we secure the services of a token woman to do the more menial tasks we shall be as good a religion as any other.

Seriously, this has been flogged to death. If you fail to understand, resort to Wikipedia because I for one will fill this thread with the flippant nonsense it richly deserves.

No offence and all that bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 04:08 PM

Prepare for the Coming of the Great Pumpkin in the coming month.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 08:39 PM

What is the "p" at the end for?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Sep 13 - 09:58 PM

whilst dictionaries certainly stress the theism aspect of religion, the meaning of the word in dictionaries certainly goes beyond that to include any belief system.
there is resistence from many strong atheists to this ,I think because, they like to insist that their position is a totally objective alternative to a faith position. IMO ,the reality is that atheism is a faith position.
either way, I am not in favour of censuring their position, rather engage in discussion in constructive, respectful attitude.
sadly some take disagreement to be disrespectful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 01:00 AM

Atheism is a rejection of superstition and the patriarchy that Western organized religions propagate. Atheists choose not to accept the definition of their position as applied by those who are steeped in religion. We choose to define ourselves.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 01:27 AM

And what do Humanists believe in?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 02:47 AM

Occasionally, very occasionally I wish to debate with pete. Ok, when I want to he doesn't and when I take the piss out of literal beliefs of ancient translations he is in an angry stage and ignores me.

Which from his perspective is reasonable I suppose.

But that is the point.

Perspective.

Some people think that not having any faith is in itself a stance and from their perspective cannot understand how anyone can dismiss faith without exploring it.

Easy!

Here in the UK at any rate, religion is no longer thrust upon you and neither was it thrust upon the parents of anybody with young children now. Unless it is either through familyor sschools that still break the law.

So yes, atheism isn't a stance. I don't have a stance on on soap operas story lines but there is an industry of magazines and chat shows working on the assumption everybody does know and care. I have never watched Knob Enders, Emmerdale Farm (other than one episode I supplied props for funnily enough) and Ena Sharples was shagging Albert Tatlock the last time I saw Coronation St.

But there again, such programmes have replaced religion for many as I do admit that we all need some form of escapism in our lives. Religion being one such form, albeit an old fashioned one by choice rather than coercion these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 06:11 AM

But there again, such programmes have replaced religion for many as I do admit that we all need some form of escapism in our lives.

I think just as many religious people enjoy the antics of EastEnders et al as Atheists. Religion was never a matter of mere escapism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 08:14 AM

musket presupposes anger on my part, which is not the case, but maybe anger would be appropriate. I imagine that if I were to badmouth someone dear to those who regularly disrespect God, that they would be angry.
btw= I have just noticed that our new laptop automatically capitalizes " I ".
it must have thoughts above its station! lol.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 10:27 AM

Hi,

The p stands for "part two" that I couldn't get to fit on the title.

The reason this issue persists is that non-believers in the area civil rights are the new blacks and gays. They are continuously attacked or insulted. The so-called "militant atheist" is a fabrication and an attack on non-belief by some religious people who claim to be neutral and non judgemental but are in fact pushing their religious agenda to "outlaw" atheism by denigrating it. Most of these ostensible Christians or whatever religion have never really read any of the books that they claim to discredit.

The proof of this is the nature of this thread, an out and out attack on non-belief by
attempting to equate it with a fundamentalist religion. It won't work.

Religious progressive types should look into how they allow this type of misinformation
to go on. They should be the first to condemn those who would make specious claims such as the title of this thread. The result of ignoring this issue places those with a more "liberal" religious view into the ranks of those religious fundamentalist groups for allowing this attack to go on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Amos
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 10:53 AM

It is perfectly possible for an atheist to get militant about his assertions of the non-existence of God, but it is an exercise in semantic folly. But even if he were to do so, it would not be in any sense of the word a religion, anymore than refusing to eat vegetables is a form of vegetarianism.

Additionally, there are so many characterizations of godhead loose in the wild that a militant atheist would have an exhausting time of it rebutting them severally and individually, if he really wanted to be thorough.

I have great respect for the Infinite, to the tiny degree I have been able to perceive or sense it, but I think anthropomorphicizing it is about the silliest thing anyone has ever tried to do. It is tricky enough to stay in touch with one's own spiritual nature, and cosmic hubris just defeats the purpose thereof.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 02:51 PM

Amos, this makes sense to me. Unfortunately there are others on this thread and elsewhere that don't agree with you. They have an agenda called "let's get the militant atheist" (whatever and wherever they are.)

I should remind my fellow Americans that atheists are discouraged if not downright prohibited to serve in public office in the US.

The Senate and Congress are force fed prayer breakfasts in violation of the US Constitution Separation Clause.

The military, in particular, the Air Force is force feeding its cadets in Christian theology.

Is there any wonder that there is a certain militancy in regard to atheism?

In the meantime, service in the armed forces has become a militant religion.

The US in on the brink of entering a religious civil war in Syria, one it can't win, and the outcome will be a religious sect at the helm of the government. (Alawite or Sunni).

Is there any wonder about a certain militancy in regard to atheism? Maybe it's a militancy in the defense of sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 06:13 PM

militant_atheism_has_become_a_religion

My God, some of you are thicker than arctic molasses.

I posted the linked article for discussion in the dim past when some thought that a reasonable discussion about religion or the lack thereof was possible on this forum.

Note that the title is different from the URL I used the URL phrase in the thread title because it was the easiest thing to cut and paste. If you have a problem with the sentence "Militant atheism has become a religion" take it up with Salon.com Internet technology department.

The link was to a short article excerpted from "The Bonobo and the Atheist" and amusing collection of musings from one of Stringsinger's
favorite atheists (according to Stringsinger in the thread without the "p") who speculated that certain "thinkers" described as "militant atheists" often display the same traits ascribed to the religious zealots they decry.

I made the observation that there were people like that on the Mudcat whereupon they showed up on the thread, self identified and proceeded to prove my hypothesis beyond all limits of my imagination. I hope it is not bragging to say that my imagination can reach some wild heights but I never expected to have another link to the self same article being put forth to disprove the original title of certain folks starting a religion and continue the joke for weeks to show that they were anti-religious.

So now we have the usual suspects (2 of 3 anyway) trying to rekindle the discussion for unfathomable reasons. My wild imagination is telling me that my thoughts and words as expressed on this thread and the original will be mischaracterized in the most hyperbolic ways. With or without my participation.

I am afraid it will mostly have to be without this time. But I have included this post so that anyone who is curious can read what got so many panties wadded into a bunch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Sep 13 - 07:48 PM

""So now we have the usual suspects (2 of 3 anyway) trying to rekindle the discussion for unfathomable reasons.""

Laughable comment from one who strongly supported all the anti Atheist threads, none of which were started by Atheists attacking the religious.

Quite the reverse, in fact!

Maybe the the OP of this thread thought that free speech meant the right to present the Atheist point of view, in answer to our Sailor Boy's distortions.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket praying ish
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:37 AM

Frustratingly, I agreed to bury the nautical hatchet so one avenue of amusement has been closed to me. (Hello Sailor.. In the nicest interpretation of the phrase.)

Nice that pete has an atheist keyboard to contend with, such trials make for thinking before typing. Perhaps in reply, I might point out the old chestnut that blasphemy is a victimless crime.

Amos makes a good point with vegetarianism. Not sure you could identify an atheist by the smell of their farts though in the way you can a vegetarian.....

String singer has eloquently pointed out how The USA is in the process of being taken over by the forces of Dumbfuckistan, although I usually get shouted at for mentioning it, in the same way that lying to Christians isn't really ly..... Whoops!

Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 07:13 AM

Unbelievable!!!!! Now we have part 2 of the pseudo intellectual ravings of Musket, shaw, stringdriver, don wizjet and seaman stayns, who are now joined by a few more posing nomarks.

Is there a tither of sense between any of youse?

We have a world economic meltdown and all you do is waffle on with all this crap.

Get with the programme dudes and jump on board for the big issue(Or are some of you still selling them?)

Peace and love


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 11:28 AM

"Here in the UK at any rate, religion is no longer thrust upon you"

This is unquestionably not true of the U.S.

"We have a world economic meltdown and all you do is waffle on with all this crap."

We also have a religious war brewing in Syria which brings this issue into focus.
A world economic meltdown is a result in part of attempting to use taxpayer dollars to fund religious wars.


"Militant atheism has become a religion" take it up with Salon.com Internet technology department. "

This was used as a pretext to go after certain people on Mudcat by stirring up trouble insisting that they were wrong. It had to be answered. This was by no means an attempt at a discussion whereby reasonable conclusions could be reached but a diatribe to accuse atheists as being narrow-minded and pig-headed.
And it was done by someone who is a religionist. When a war of words about this issue is started, then only a talking through of the issue can cool it down.

"I made the observation that there were people like that on the Mudcat"

Incorrect attributions were made to people on Mudcat for the purpose of advancing a specious idea which needed discussion. Atheism is not a militant religion and those who made this statement have only themselves to blame
when they attack non-believers and elicit rebuttals.

It's no good to hide behind an article or quote from someone when this
accusation, and it is an accusation, that non-believers are some kind of fundamentalists. It's a thinly disguised attack and should be treated as such.

It's the problem religionists have all the time. They think they are being
objective but the motivation underlying the attack is always there, to discredit
atheism by making it a fundamentalist religion. That doesn't work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 01:35 PM

Musket, I appreciate and admire your efforts in hatchet burying. Though I am a little taken aback by the continuation of this topic, doing so without personal insults is the better way.

Stringsinger, Are you familiar with the concept of the difference between some an all. I would have thought so, but your behavior indicates otherwise. I have stated several times that I did not mean to say that all atheists are militant. I have even expressed discomfort with the term.

But the term has existed since the French Revolution. and the definition according to the Urban Dictionary is clear enough.

1.         Militant Atheist
        
A militant atheist is one who is hostile towards religion. They differ from moderate atheists because they have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful. Militant atheism was an integral part of the French Revolution, Soviet Union, Cultural Revolution, and is expresses itself today in the ideas of the New Atheist authors.

To be clear, my thesis, which is essentially the same as Frans De Waal, an atheist that you apparently admired once, is that SOME atheists are just a rigid and dogmatic as the religious zealots they decry. I would consider what you have said on this thread so far, not to mention the reams of comments on other threads and the threads you started yourself to be proof enough to include you in the Atheist dogmatist group. I would think that many of self-described atheists on this form might describe your behavior on this subject to be zealous.

Now Stringsinger, Being a militant Atheist, if you are one, is nothing to be ashamed of or deny. Be proud that you have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful. It is who you are. The 200 year old label applied to that behavior should not matter. Be proud of who you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:10 PM

urban dictionary sounds good to me , jack.
I don't think I would put stringsinger too far up the militant scale, as he has been far more concilatory and respectful of late, and especially compared to some others on these threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM

pete, It seems to me that the Urban Dictionary does not define the term by the degree of militancy, but by the goals. If that definition is accepted, then anyone who promotes atheism and decries religion is a "militant atheist."

I think that Stringsinger's behavior on these threads can best be described as obliquely confrontational anti-religious zealotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 04:21 PM

""We have a world economic meltdown and all you do is waffle on with all this crap.""

If you're so keen on discussing that, start a fucking thread about it and maybe you'll get some contributors.

All threads are about what the titles indicate, as should be obvious, even to trolling nomarks like yourself.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Sep 13 - 04:55 PM

I believe that Don(Wyziwyg)T's last post violate's the terms of use and is just the sort of thing which should be deleted.

concerened's post might be taken as banter. Don's just seems cranky and mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 01:41 AM

Perhaps one day the penny will drop. Using religion to bolster opinions of others is about as good a personal insult as you can get?

My "piss taking" on any thread where people are judged by their faith or lack of will be my contribution and those doing so will get short shrift from me regardless.

If people are shallow enough to think that "atheist" means either promoting a stance or having an aversion to someone else's stance, they really should go out and buy a new dictionary. Whether you like it or not, atheist is the whitewash liberally coated onto the backs of the millions of people for whom religion or indeed lack of doesn't form any part of their makeup.

I suppose that trying to advocate the point to those for whom religion either holds them together or has hitherto broken them isn't ever going to get me anywhere? Doesn't alter the fact though all the same.

Interestingly, having just put the phone down and thought about it, I ask myself if my overall indifference to organised religion has been tested by these many debates?

No.

Not a single jot.

I still respect those for whom the belonging and comfort blanket means a lot. I still fail to understand how those who take it literally can retain their faith and I still get angry when those in positions of power try to inflict religious values on the secular majority.

But that doesn't describe "atheist. " It describes Musket and by a remarkable coincidence describes Ian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM

Steady on there wizzjet!! don't get carried away. I am one to many for you.

For once I agree with jack...it is absolutely disgraceful that a so called intelligent? person cant take a little carefree banter without resorting to appropriouse epithets, especially since you waffle on about free speech in an earlier post.
,
But hey !! I am good, I am gracious, it is, after all jack, playing into wizzjets hand to get rid of him.

He will only kick the slats out of his playpen and bore us all rigid by starting a zillion post screaming about his perceived rights: rights people like me have fought for.

In my humble opinion and judging by his former postings, this buffoon is a known trouble maker.

Some one who should put his doubtful talents into something constructive like counting beans or putting heads on broom sticks.. have a nice day dear heart..

hang on tho!!!..stupid name wxzy stuff,pitiful attempts at stentorian judgementalism , looks like there is bit of radio ham going on there? You just have to be one of them anoraks... or you are into train spotting? go on fess up, you are aren't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket par for the course
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:00 AM

Whilst not having any idea who concerned is, I welcome his or her posts.

Not that I have the slightest idea what they are saying of course. But in slagging off Jack, Don, my co Messiah and associated gnome, they don't tend to pick on me which means I don't have to find a private corner of the playground to cry and cut myself up.

See? even trolls can be failures. Although reading concerned, I do get an insight into what Goofus would post if he ever read and actually understood what others write.

Concerned just does it for kicks of course. The sort of person you wouldn't wish to see hanging around school yards anyway.

Concerned, I couldn't interest you in a second hand cassock could I? Only been used once as part of a failed bingo night ajd never been worn by a person of the cloth.

Just wondered. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:37 AM

Don't know what you are talking about muscrat..

Only thing is, I don't like toady's, fence sitters, woosy liberals, ginger cake eaters, express reading second hand cassock sellers, anymore than I like buffoons, yeggs, biscuit chomping armchair lefties and pseudo intellectuals like your little chums; shaw, wizzjet,stringsinger and jerk the sailor (mind, I believe there is still hope for him if only he drops his nautical pretensions) et al.

Now muscrat, you seem to have some knowledge of these clowns; is wizzjet a closet anorak?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 10:58 AM

Rather partial to ginger cake actually.

I would only read The Daily Express on the same terms as The Indescribablyboring, ie you can download it for nowt. Paying for it just encourages Di conspiracies.

Not sure I can help you. I do work with occasionally and can put you in touch with people who can help you though. If you use the drop in centres in most UK cities, you don't even need a GP referral either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 11:13 AM

""I believe that Don(Wyziwyg)T's last post violate's the terms of use and is just the sort of thing which should be deleted.

concerened's post might be taken as banter. Don's just seems cranky and mean.
""

According to your rather skewed view of things, my remarks are cranky and mean, while ""Unbelievable!!!!! Now we have part 2 of the pseudo intellectual ravings of Musket, shaw, stringdriver, don wizjet and seaman stayns, who are now joined by a few more posing nomarks."" is perfectly acceptable banter.

I think you have really lost your tiny mind (and violates does not require an apostrophe).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 11:36 AM

What barnacle balls is saying is quite simple even for you wizjets.. You resort to the use of the F word, whilst I use properly constructed banter..I aint smug and judgmental aaaand, I keep my cool something you really should learn...getting with it now?

By the way;if you find anything untrue in anything I have said about you, please point it out wont you?.

By your every response to me you expose yourself as the fraud you undoubtedly are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 12:15 PM

In the OP, Stringsinger asked some questions, hoping to relieve Mudcat of the topic for some time. I would like to endorse this heroic goal, so here is my Q&A version:

Is militant atheism a religion? No; neither is militant polytheism. (To be a religion, some more specific content is required, though not necessarily a god or a holy book or praying.)
Are militant atheists militant? Yes.
Are militant atheists as militant as militant polytheists? Some are, some are more, some are less so.
Is atheism a special source of militance? No, ideologies are, whether atheist, religious, or other.
Is militance against other militance/militants justified? Only in rare cases.
Is an ideology justified if it propagates justified militance against other militants? Not by that fact alone.
Do atheist and religious militant ideologists of have things in common, such as saints? Frequently, though interpretations usually differ from one ideology to the other.
Should missionary zeal be limited by law? Yes, in the widest possible limits.
Should deriding other ideologies be forbidden? No, but reasonible persons should strongly discourage it, even if they share the deriders' criticism.
Can a state be neutral in ideological matters? Not really, but it should try.

Glad to be of service.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 04:42 PM

My God! Now I am agreeing with Concerereneded!! Watch out for the second coming folks! The Apok-a-lipps is upon us!

DonT-Hoe-T thanks for the attention but you are obviously delusional if you think I care what you say.

"If people are shallow enough to think that "atheist" means either promoting a stance or having an aversion to someone else's stance, they really should go out and buy a new dictionary. "

No one on this forum is saying that. Frans de Waal, leading Atheist writer and thought leader, much admired by the original poster. Has said that SOME atheists (please NOTE the word SOME which obviously does not apply to all and thus does not alter the definition of the word.) SOME atheists, Some Atheists are zealous and dogmatic, in the same way that some religionists are.

Then there is the concept of the militant atheist, which exists as per the Urban Dictionary and as evidenced in deed at least as far back as the French Revolution. NO one is saying that all atheists are zealous and dogmatic. But it is clear that some people are dogmatic and zealous in their opposition to religion. If you are saying that religious education is child abuse as Dawkins frequently does, you are according to the accepted definition of the Urban Dictionary, a militant atheist. I don't know how it could be clearer or easier to understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 05:43 PM

And wizzjet, this is a friendly banter site.. not a spelling site..over to you o judgmental..or maybe mental one? oh... and violates does require plenty of shade..or is that violets....keep out of the sun old bean..it can turn you funny..and that would never do..or would it?

maybes then we could start with a semblance of a personality for you?

have a really nice day..xc


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 05:47 PM

jack..please...........? for your own sanity...get a life?

I really am concerned about you.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:14 PM

What is militant? From Latin "militans" = "being a soldier, fighting". Atheists who fight someone or something for not being atheist are called militant atheists. In modern usage, "fighting" includes propaganda aimed at weakening its target. Dawkins would certainly subscribe. The question of what exactly he is fighting has become part of the fight.

(Note that Urban Dictionary is a valuable but extremely unreliable source, being written by presumed slang speakers themselves.)

Criticism is distinguished from militance/fighting by being aimed at particular features, theoretically allowing for reforms and corrections. Luther's theses are an example.

Dogmatic is a completely different notion: basing one's teaching on foundations that one excludes from all questioning. Dogmatic persons act authoritarian against their followers, but need not necessarily fight the heathen.

Zeal can have any target, but neither militants nor dogmatists can exist without it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:20 PM

>>jack..please...........? for your own sanity...get a life?

I really am concerned about you..<<

Ah! The balance of the universe has been restored.

I have a life, Thank you. I'm watching the NFL and posting this nonsense during the breaks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM

To avoid misunderstandings: a militant atheist is someone who fights persons, institutions, or teachings for reasons directly related to her or his atheism. Many militant atheists concede that believers should not be fought if they keep their faith to themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM

(Note that Urban Dictionary is a valuable but extremely unreliable source, being written by presumed slang speakers themselves.)

Point taken.

Note that for my purposes, I simply have to show that the phrase is in common usage and obviously NOT something I have made up and accusing all atheists of.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 01:21 AM

Phew! Thank Clapton for that. Urban dictionary is fine by me. For a minute there I thought you were going to invoke that Webster bloke. This side of the pond, we were taught in school that due to inaccuracies, lack of original research carrying on through the editions etc that Webster is testament to there being no reliable American English dictionary.

There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding going back to the op of the op as it were.   I for one am well aware of de Waal using the word "some" when talking of actions and thoughts of atheists. What is irritating about such a stance is that it is about as relevant a "some ginger haired people" as a debating point. Sure there are such people who rally against organised religions and even some who feel that perpetuation of any superstition is ultimately damaging to society, but to group them as atheist as a label signifying their stance is odd to say the least.



Anyway back to reality.   I have to find the direction of Knott End on a compass and get the door mat so if you will excuse me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 07:10 AM

Is there a regional list of Militant atheist temples available anywhere?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket etc
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 12:06 PM

Not on paper. A number of people have such lists in their heads though.

Mostly the other side of the pond from where I am, but one in Kent judging by one contributor...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 02:31 PM

"Musket, I appreciate and admire your efforts in hatchet burying. Though I am a little taken aback by the continuation of this topic, doing so without personal insults is the better way."

I agree with this and am glad you finally see it that way.

"Stringsinger, Are you familiar with the concept of the difference between some an all. I would have thought so, but your behavior indicates otherwise. I have stated several times that I did not mean to say that all atheists are militant. I have even expressed discomfort with the term."

I don't agree with the Urban Dictionary in it's definition. I don't think
a militant atheist has to be fervently hostile to religion. I think this would be the province of an "anti-theist". I am not hostile to religion but
I think it needs to be questioned as one would question a political philosophy. Without any hostility, I see it ultimately as a delusion and
I'm not hostile to deluded people.

"But the term has existed since the French Revolution. and the definition according to the Urban Dictionary is clear enough."

" Militant atheism was an integral part of the French Revolution, Soviet Union, Cultural Revolution, and is expresses itself today in the ideas of the New Atheist authors."

I don't see this. The French Revolution was instigated by a priest, Robespierre and this has nothing to do with the so-called new atheist authors who don't agree with each other conclusively.

"To be clear, my thesis, which is essentially the same as Frans De Waal, an atheist that you apparently admired once, is that SOME atheists are just a rigid and dogmatic as the religious zealots they decry."

This of course is true. However, there is a certain bias that occurs when
this information is used to form the idea of atheism as something
that is "wrong".



" I would consider what you have said on this thread so far, not to mention the reams of comments on other threads and the threads you started yourself to be proof enough to include you in the Atheist dogmatist group. I would think that many of self-described atheists on this form might describe your behavior on this subject to be zealous."

Not necessarily. I have been painted as a dogmatist but I think that's a dangerous label. I am not a fundamentalist anything. This labeling is
one thing that can be used as a weapon to denigrate non-belief. Also,
regarding Frans De Waal, I admire him immensely but also consider
that he may have misinterpreted what some atheists are saying as I think that may be the case with many on Mudcat.

"Now Stringsinger, Being a militant Atheist, if you are one, is nothing to be ashamed of or deny. Be proud that you have the desire to propagate atheism and also hold religion to be harmful. It is who you are. The 200 year old label applied to that behavior should not matter. Be proud of who you are."

I don't believe that I need to be proud of non-belief. I want to propagate
intelligent and unbiased thought about this issue, however and not have
vague, mystical, ambiguous and "holy" thoughts remain uncriticized
and used to denigrate non-belief. The nature of this thread remains
as a means of criticizing certain aspects of non-belief that is not understood completely. Dawkins, for example, is not openly hostile
to religion per se. He is incensed by "honor killings", "beheadings",
the subjugation of women through dress codes, the violence propagated
by Christians, (they think they are real) and other religious atrocities
that are supported by some more moderate and less enthusiastic religious
people. My point is this.

Why bring this discussion onto a thread and expect everyone to
agree with this premise? What is the motivation for starting this
discussion? I am suspicious that there is an attempt to put all non-
believers into a category that really belies the nature of non-belief
as they inquire as to the validity of religious pursuits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 02:37 PM

I cannot help but think that the displayed ignorance here seems to be intentional. The only person that I know saying " Militant atheism has become a religion " is the IT person at Salon who probably misread the title of the article. I profusely apologize for repeating that error and the obvious anguish it seems to cause y'all.

The title of the article is "Has Militant atheism become a religion?" my answer to that would be "no" but it appears that SOME people who are militant atheists as per the Urban Dictionary" definition are as dogmatic and zealous as the religious people the decry. (please note that I did not say all religious people. I only mean to include the religious zealots that that anti-religious zealots decry. )

If you all really think that a typo on a URL on Salon.com is worth so much discussion, by all means carry on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 03:02 PM

"If you all really think that a typo on a URL on Salon.com is worth so much discussion, by all means carry on."

I think it needs to be questioned and discussed rationally. Who are the religious zealots and who decides who they are? Is it possible that a person can be called
a religious zealot one moment and then not another? Is it possible that a person
can practice religious zealotry in one area and not in another?

My objection is that rigid thinking through labels encourage misunderstanding
about non-belief.

I think that those who are sensitive about this issue need to be more informed about what people of non-belief are saying. I really think Dawkins is being maligned, here. His probing is as a scientist, not a demagogue as he is being portrayed. I refer people to his interviews with religious adherents to see how he really works.

Frans De Waal is a product of his own culture which is not known to foster
non-belief widely. Dutch Reformed Church is strong there.
His "I don't care" attitude is fine but doesn't shed light
on the nature of non-belief.

Notice, I don't use the word "atheist" as applied to myself, because it
engenders a kind of negative labeling that has been given to minorities in Civil Rights issues. My preferred label (if we have to use one at all) is Freethinker and even that suggest ambiguity. Maybe we need to throw out all the labels, such as "militant",especially the ones that are used to make others "wrong".

I think this discussion has merits because it illuminates the tendency toward rigid thinking and intolerance. It has to be recognized that the Civil War in Syria
and the breaking down of the Arab Spring has religion as its basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 05:30 PM

What Dawkins has done in the writing and promotion of "The God Delusion" is certainly militant atheism according to the Urban Dictionary and Frans der Waal. In Dawkins' TED talk about it he admits to opposing religion and he obviously is promoting an anti-religion point of view. Since you also are anti-religion and promote atheism but do not want us to call what you and Mr. Dawkins are trying to sell to us selling atheism, not because the word does not fit but because, you personally do not like the connotations, you are not technically a "miltant atheist."

I can think of several alternate words and phrases to describe your participation in and starting of this discussion, but to call you them would violate the terms of use of this board.

So let me simply say that your premise is, to say the least, dubious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM

There you go again, just because Prof Dawkin would be comfortable with a label such as you describe (although neither of us has ever asked him his view. .) you assume anybody with a view different to yours is some form of acolyte of his.

Why?

Is it that we are both British? Is it because neither of us have a religious faith? Buggered if I know what else it could be? You seem to know a lot about him anyway when I mention that all the Abrahamic religions don't consider their children as religious till they have a rites of passage of some description, you pounced on it and said we were all just quoting Dawkins. Presumably forgetting The Pope, Archbishop of Canterbury, chief Rabbi and myriad Islamic clerics.

Can you for once read an opinion without invoking your fascination with Dawkin?

Early in the morning. Can't remember if its Dawkins or Dawkin.

Your take on what I said above by the way is based on thinking I hate religion. Perhaps if you read what I put rather than what you like to think I put you may not make such absurd conclusions.

For that matter I have never promoted atheism. I don't know what it means for starters. If I promote anything it would be informed choice before jumping in bed with any club, society or cult. If something needs brainwashing of children or preying on vulnerable adults in order to boost membership rather than laying out the benefits of membership to informed adults then it really needs to have a good think about relevance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 06:38 AM

Dawkins used to be a biologist who wrote some popular-scientific books about evolution theory, which I read. His ideas were generally well received among his fellow biologists, though not found explaining as much as sometimes claimed.

Starting with "The God Delusion", he switched to becoming an activist. He does not claim any scientific knowledge about his new subject (philosophy, sociology, and psychology of religions), and indeed deliberately boasts the opposite - see his famous "leprechaun" comparison. He is proud to fight religion, in other words, he is a militant atheist. Whenever he criticizes aspects of particular religions (which alone would make him merely a critic of religions), he describes them as consequences of religious faith.

The following is important and not known to everybody: his original starting point was a speculation about the biological evolution of religious predispositions in humans. It sounded somewhat plausible (though not to scientists who are long past this sort of "Darwinisms"), and led him to his new ideas that religion is no longer favorable to the survival of mankind, on the contrary. "Like the dinosaurs" - as another popular biologistic superstition says.

In the light of evolution theory, his present efforts can well be compared to cutting the tails of mice.

I wrote a similar post, but shorter, to a Mudcat thread last year, and found that some replies defended Dawkins in the style of some Muslims defending Muhammad - "sainthood" indeed.

I do not want to be part of ideological disputes, but I would like to emphasize that they must not be confused with science, even when led by (former) scientists. The great successes of science have brought about an aura (now somewhat crumbling, but still considerable) which attracts all kinds of superstition, with or without traditional attributes of religion. "Scientology" is the ultimate such label.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerend
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM

Is that dawkins related to Jack Dawkins the Artful dodger?..

Point is does it really matter.While you pseudo academics are scratching yourselves with one hand and thumb up bum with 'tother..the world is in a state of chaos..Do you clowns really think the skinny jean, blackberry fondling youth of today are interested in this crap.

Why don't you turn what passes for your collective brains and come up with solutions to help the unemployed, stop the attack on our health service, housing crisis, job cuts..these are the real issues not dork fodder that you lot discuss in your cosy little world.

Do something!!! or crayons are on way


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:37 AM

But concerned, surely nobody gives a tuppenny toss about housing crisis, jobs, health or other proletariat issues.

But we will happily debate whether you are male or female or whether that affects your habit of wearing bras and stockings.

Grishka gets my understatement of the last 10 mins award for referring to The Emeritus Professor of Evolutionary Biology at Oxford as a bloke who used to write a few books about biology.

His conclusions and theories were derided by many on the basis of they contradicted religious Scripture. I would be a bit Pissed off too if influential people dismissed scientific research by comparing it to fantasy and fiction. Whether it would make me a crusader such as he became is another kettle of fish though.

Unlike one contributor here, I don't seize on views of others and say their views purely reflect a following of Dawkins.

Rather funny really.

Here, my dog doesn't attend a church. Is he an atheist? Discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 09:09 AM

Just "The Emeritus", Musket? Why not "THe EMeritus" (reflecting traditional spellings like "THe LOrd" etc.)?

Evolutionary biology is what it is; its relationship with metaphysics has not been changed at all by Dawkins' work in that field. A lot of the theory amounts to probabilistic mathematics - controversial only for internal reasons.

The Scripture people oppose that science altogether. Dawkins made a good target for them because he was prominent, and because they could instrumentalize that internal criticism, of course without understanding anything of it.

The important phase, however, was when Dawkins, flattered by the success of his popular books, strayed to areas of "Social/Sociological Darwinism", which is an ideology not backed by science at all. (In fact some of its claims would in principle be accessible to scientific methods, but only few have been treated successfully hitherto - and certainly not by Dawkins, who is proud not to be a sociologist.)

Summary: beware of ideologists, whether or not they claim science and/or "common sense" and/or divine inspiration and/or tradition.

And yes, "concerned", it has a lot to do with politics, both in theory and in practice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket scratching his arse
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 12:42 PM

I was scratching my head, but being a realist rather than an ideologist, scratching my arse at least has a purpose.

Funny how agreement can be phrased to look like contradiction?

If, as some imagine, atheist is the antithesis of theist, then that convenient label fails to take into account those who cross the street to avoid a beggar on their way to church or the Godless bloke caught loving his neighbour.

Reminds me of the sanctimonious berk I once worked with who pointed out that he gives to charitable causes because he is a Christian. I pointed out that I like red sauce on my egg butties because I am a football fan. He promised to pray for me so I offered to watch David Hirst score a goal for him.

Although it isn't quite so surreal to point out that our understanding of evolutionary biology evolves. Presumably through the work promoted by academics in that field. Lets see now.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 04:36 PM

""Who are the religious zealots and who decides who they are?""

Good question!

The answer is, of course, just take a look at all the recent discussions of atheists on this forum.

With the single exception of this one, the OPs are people of religious faith attacking atheists.

Does that supply a clue?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 05:21 PM

"I can think of several alternate words and phrases to describe your participation in and starting of this discussion, but to call you them would violate the terms of use of this board. "

This is an insulting remark and typical of the religious reaction to non-belief.
It belies the objectivity that a true discussion of this issue would engender.

Actually the original premise of this thread is that somehow a "militant atheist"
which has not really been defined is somehow equated with a fundamentalist religion. There is no church, no ritual, no hymn, no profession of any kind of
faith involved in non-belief and as much as some would like to pigeonhole those as non-belief, the hostility it engenders far exceeds any supposed hostility to religious people by non-believers. Once again, I will make myself clear. Neither Dawkins or me are hostile to religion but it has to be questioned within the bounds of reason.

I don't hate religion personally. I have no hostile feelings toward anyone who is religious. Also, I think that their religious delusion doesn't reflect a delusion in any other part of their life. Religious people can lead productive lives and contribute immensely to society. In my view, this is despite and not because of their professed religious beliefs.

My interpretation of what Dawkins is saying is that religion can cause people to do awful things and witness what is going on in Syria right now. I see no hostility in Dawkins at all toward religious people. His approach is to interview them in order to understand why they believe the way they do.

As for his scientific creds, I think he has proven them. His book, "The Greatest
Show on Earth" is a love letter to Darwin and is beautifully done.

"The important phase, however, was when Dawkins, flattered by the success of his popular books, strayed to areas of "Social/Sociological Darwinism", which is an ideology not backed by science at all."

This is a disguised ad hominem criticism by maintaining that it is an ego-driven pursuit to be "popular" and how do you know he is flattered by anything?
I don't see that he has strayed to "Social Darwinism" which has been used by
Libertarians and traditional "moneybags" business people to claim a statement never uttered by Darwin, "Survival of the fittest" to justify their wealth at the expense of the poor.

As for scientific proof, there has been none offered for the "faith" by religious people. Since you can't prove a negative (a logical fallacy), the defense of religion can't be offered on scientific grounds.

My reading of Dawkins is that he is more concerned with what religion does to people rather than of what it consists. The behavioral track record doesn't look too good.

There may be some possible disagreements that I could find with Dawkins and my point is that there is no unilateral tenet or creed among people of non-belief
that would make them acolytes of a "militant" idea. This is a total misunderstanding of the people of non-religion.

"Militant" has a pejorative connotation in the eyes of the defenders of "faith"
and thereby is a weapon contrived to discredit non-belief.

There are many different ideas about non-belief that belie any militant conformity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 05:26 PM

Grishka, Excellent points about Dawkins, I have been trying to make similar points about The God Delusion.

Musket, you are not paying attention to what is being said.

Here it is briefly

Dawkins fights against religion in publication and speeches, He is proud of that. He is a militant atheist as per the Urban Dictionary.

No one is making blanket statements about all atheists except for what you and stringer are imagining is being said. I am being very specific in who I am referring to. I will now hereby apologize for anything that I may have said to give ANY impression that I was talking about or have any ill will or criticisms of atheists as a group.

You seem to admire Dawkins greatly as a scientist. That is nice. But you have told us you are a Phd. Physicist. Does that degree make you an expert in metaphysics? Neither does Dawkins' degree and work in biology qualify him as an expert in the existence of God. You may well respect his opinion, but that is all "The God Delusion" is one man's opinion. Ask Griska is saying. HE IS NOT SPEAKING FROM SCIENCE. He quotes Doug Adams, sci-fi comedian, rather than citing scientific

I have been entirely too patient with you by constantly explaining these things to you while you consistently misrepresent what I say. This is the last time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:32 PM

I return refreshed, Wacko dear boy (or girl - Jeez...) from my holiday only to find that you are, fortunately, still here (what other entertainment shall there be?). Just thought I'd mention it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:37 AM

Back to defend anti-religion from fictional attacks Mr. Shaw. Carry on!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:55 AM

Does that mean I can go back to childish name calling and piss taking?

Just wondered.

Your apology to "atheists as a group" is your own version of misrepresenting and not reading what others have put. It is your insistence that such a group can exist that started all this tosh in the first place. Your technique of third party quoting to push your stance whilst giving yourself the freedom of agreeing or not agreeing with it a la de Waal is rather transparent. Even pete has the courage of stating his own conviction.

Anyway, I note my co Messiah is back from his days in the wilderness and the associated gnome is making friends whilst trimming his hedge so must dash.



You mention my own research. Excellent example of not labelling. Yes it is rather wrapped in physics and I sometimes agree the word physics applies but in reality and more importantly for application it is in engineering. Unlike my son who did all his earlier work and Masters in physics but for his PhD research is dropped into the engineering faculty.

I don't admire the good professor as a scientist as my knowledge and understanding of his subject precludes my having an opinion. A bit like those who deride him because he questions their Creed rather than making proclamations on his subject they understand.

Douglas Adams wasn't a comedian by your urban dictionary standards. He was a writer. A bloody good one at that. He dealt in fantasy mainly. I suppose that made his views on religion "informed" views.

Or piss takes as you might say.

Tatty bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 04:36 AM

Do the M.A.s have a website?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 05:09 AM

www.hedontknowjackshit.com


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:14 AM

Stringsinger,
This is a disguised ad hominem criticism by maintaining that it is an ego-driven pursuit to be "popular" and how do you know he is flattered by anything?
I know that many atheists who were not interested in biology at all, applauded Dawkins, e.g. his book "The Blind Watchmaker" (1986). In other words, they flattered him, in the hope of obtaining new arguments. I do not know whether Dawkins actually felt flattered or had other reasons, ego-driven or not, and I do not care particularly, but he shifted away from biology altogether in later years, notably in "The God Delusion" (2006).
I don't see that he has strayed to "Social Darwinism"
He occasionally suggests that Darwin's theory applies to sociological groups; after all, his perceived authority is based on his past successes in Evolution Theory. The effect is that some people demand privileges for their (often enough falsely claimed) "enlightenment". This I criticize strongly, whether or not Dawkins can be personally held responsible.

Militant means fighting, thus those who fight can be called militant - what else? Fighting can be honorable, depending on its cause and its means. Firefighters are heroes, and are seldom asked whether they actually hate fires.

Note that the Scripture fundamenatlist form a small minority among the targets of Dawkins's fight. Many religious functionaries have long publicly accepted Evolution Theory, sometimes adding their provisos in a way that cannot interfere with research. Their philosophy can still be questionable, of course, but Dawkins prefers to compare them to leprechaunologists.

My own view is that the whole discussion is misled because of grave misconceptions about the very notion and character of religion. Such misconceptions are shared by many atheists and most (!) speakers for religions. I wrote more on other threads; just one thing here (re Musket): the relationship between ethics and religion is much more complicated than commonly perceived; those who do good only in order to go to heaven, do so for ego-driven reasons and therefore rightly go to hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:26 AM

The Knott End Militant Atheist Tendency will be having their annual excursion to the Blackpool Illuminations on Friday 28th of September, meeting at 7.30pm at Fleetwood Lower Light on a specially chartered 'Heritage Tram' to take them to North Shore where they will be met by Dr Bill 'Awkins who will deliver the first of several talks on The Destiny of Divinity in a Post-Religious Society.

'Awkins argues that the post-religious age dawned with the Victorian Enlightenment and ever since then humanity has been in technological ascendency with respect of industry, science and medicine, entirely negating the need for religion which has been relegated to :

'...a reactionary superstition lacking any real dynamic or authority. To the so-called religious this Neo-Religion is an entirely elective romanticism at odds with societal reality, which is now Godless by default. Even the would-be religious know this - their craving is thus for comfort and certainty. They crave what Marx once called The Opiate of the Proletariat in full knowledge that what they are getting is, in fact, a placebo.

'Once humanity has attained Atheism, Science and Technology, there can be no going back into the dark for our innocence is lost. Those who claim to believe in God are being nostalgic for a religious age they have no understanding of. Even the Victorians knew this, couching their imagery in terms of a Gothic revivalism which was every bit as anachronistic then as it is now. In the Middle Ages, everything was depicted in contemporary terms but there is no place for Jesus in modern clothes, bust as there is no place for Jesus in the modern world. No one knows God is dead more than Christians; they mourn his death in a faux-faith which isn't even worthy of being seen in terms of folklore.'

Afterwards, there will be a choice of fish 'n' chips, Holland's pies and home-made hot-pot in the Bispham village hall before the return journey to Fleetwood and a nocturnal river crossing on the Wyre Rose to the headquarters of KEMAT where such atheist classics as 'They Can't all be Right but They Can all be Wrong' and 'Religion is to Spirituality What Pornography is to Sexuality' will be given a through dressing down to the accompaniment of Miss Harper on her VCS3.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM

Popular version of Social Darwinism (not shared by all militant atheists): We, the Enlightened, form a higher step of evolution and therefore have the right to oppress the earlier life forms, just as the mammals overcame the dinosaurs. If you wish to be saved, join our lines and pray for enlightenment; you might even become wealthy, as opposed to the opiated proletarians. No need to really understand the Scriptures of Dawkins, just emphasize their Oxford-certified Truth of Science, and salvation is near! Praise Evolution!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 08:24 AM

Disregarding the spurious invention displayed above, do the M.A.s have an actual website?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket grinning
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM

How do you know it is spurious unless you .... Oh. [blush]

Kemat. I would have joined you but I got in a round in The Bourne Arms, you know how it is. I have to make a run for it down the ramp to the ferry as it is in case I bump into that old girlfriend from Preesall or her brother in law who threatened me, which makes a change from him frightening kids I suppose.

Whereabouts on the north shore? Used to ge a good pub behind the Derby Baths but since that got knocked down I lost my bearings a bit around there. I'll be waiting somewhere near my Aunty's old boarding house on Lord St as that seems ironic enough. You can stuff the Hollands rat coffins though. I come from the proper side of the Pennines. Fleur de Leys or nowt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 09:42 AM

""Disregarding the spurious invention displayed above, do the M.A.s have an actual website?""

Good point!

Apart, as you say, from the spurious...........!

They don't!

No website.
No meeting houses (church, mosque, synagogue or temple).
No rites.
No rituals.
No hymns.
No chants.
No one to worship.
No groups to worship together.

This is sounding like no religion I ever heard of.

Mind you, I tend to believe in a deity (for lack of a better word), while also eschewing all of the above nonsense.

This may be why I feel more at home among the unbelievers.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 11:33 AM

Judging by those responses, can one then conclude that as the concept has so few similarities to any recognised religions, that it is illogical to label M.A. in this way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 12:20 PM

All right, KEMAT, but you will not get me to Cleveleys, I warn you...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:16 PM

I don't think I would put stringsinger too far up the militant scale, as he has been far more concilatory and respectful of late, and especially compared to some others on these threads.

Rather ironic, coming from a a man who disrespects honest, hard-working scientists at every turn and who hasn't even got enough respect to take a single thing on board from anyone who doesn't sing from his literalist hymnsheet. Eyes tight shut and hands clasped over ears. And don't you just lurve the beautiful non sequitur in that sentence of his?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 02:24 PM

Yeah but co Messiah. .. from Cleveleys you can get a tram to Talbot Square and spend the night in Yates. ..

Not that Yates has sawdust on the floor any more. Or a woman in a cubicle joined to the bar, or just serving halves for known winos.   Or dodgy Australian wines before they became de rigour.

Do religious types dream nostalgically about drafty pews with splinters?

We all have our comfort blankets. Mine was in Blackpool as a lad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 03:42 PM

I know this will come as a blow, but the Talbot Square Yates's burned down several years ago. An amazing building that I remember still had sawdust on the floor right to the end. There are plans afoot for a Phoenix-like resurrection.

Cleveleys was hailed as the New Jerusalem. The New Church began there and now has branches as far afield as Canterbury for ready pilgrimage - though they still flood into Cleveleys. B&M Bargains! Who needs religion with such fruits so readily dangling for the enrichment of our very souls?

Verily I say unto you : Keep it Real! Militant Atheism for the People!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 05:38 PM

The impugnment of Dawkins as a scientist has to be expected by those who espouse
a god but can't prove that one exists. I maintain that "militant atheism" is a fallacy and the label is used as a weapon to isolate and denigrate non-belief. The reason there is no militant atheism is because there is no unilateral ideas, creed, or opinion and certainly no
"faith" that would constitute a coherent set of by-laws that is found in religion.

"My own view is that the whole discussion is misled because of grave misconceptions about the very notion and character of religion."

The very same thing can be said about the grave misconceptions of non-belief.

"Militant means fighting, thus those who fight can be called militant - what else?"

The label is spurious. It is used as a pejorative, here, to insist on a fundamentalist idea
that is shared by those wanting to denigrate non-belief. The whole intent of this thread is to make atheists fanatics which isn't true.

For that matter, we can talk about militant religionists who insist that their "faith" is
to be accepted as somehow untouchable by criticism. Let's start a new thread,
Militant religionists are the New Religion. These are the ones who fight against Dawkins and other non-believers by denigrating his and other's non-belief viewpoints. It's hypocritical to say that these religionists (on Mudcat and other places) are not attacking
non-belief because it is evident that they are.

"He occasionally suggests that Darwin's theory applies to sociological groups; after all, his perceived authority is based on his past successes in Evolution Theory."

Yes but this is not "Social Darwinism" which is an idea perpetrated by early industrialist businessmen in the U.S. to justify their exploitation over their workers and the poor. This was a misreading of Darwin who actually never made the statement "the survival of the fittest" used to justify reprehensible actions of Libertarians and the statement is not in the Origin of Species.

Religion, if it is to be untouchable when it comes to criticism, becomes "militant". It's fair game to disagree politically and denigrate political parties or ideas but somehow someone's "faith" is above commentary or questioning? This is the height of hypocrisy.
We can discuss, even passionately argue about politics but religion is so "holy" that it's out of bounds. Why is that?

You don't have to agree with Dawkins, there's no rule book for that but to impugn him as a bad scientist by those who have no scientific credentials whatever on the basis that they are somehow devout enough not to have to discuss their "faith" intelligently is arrogant and intolerant. It's so religious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:04 PM

Yebbut I can never visit Cleveleys ever again after my boyhood experiences there in the 50s, one rain-soaked week every bloody August at Mrs Flannelfoot's digs and the highlight of a mug of Horlicks per day at the greasy spoon down the side-street opposite the Cleveleys And Oldham Used Car Show. You honestly think you could ever lure me back there?? Huh???


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:10 PM

"That belief of yours is certainly not evidence based. "

Again, this misinterprets the idea of non-belief by a oxymoron. I don't have a
belief as has been ascribed to me. As to evidence, there is not conclusive evidence
that there is (are) no god(s) but so far no one has satisfactorily provided scientific evidence that there is one or more.

Non-belief is not a belief but a questioning and criticism of those who profess that somehow their belief is real.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:15 PM

I agree with all that, Stringsinger. I'm supposedly one the militant atheists around here, yet I don't even know what a bloody atheist is supposed to be for a start. I've never started a militant atheist thread, unlike Wacko, who starts militant Christian anti-atheist worry-threads willy-nilly at the drop of a hat, the poor thing, and I haven't got much of a creed to speak of, just a requirement for evidence (which these blustering Christians never, ever oblige me with). It appears that you become a militant as soon as you express doubt about God's existence and ask for evidence. God knows what these neurotic Christians are so scared of!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM

I meant that longer post of yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:29 PM

there is not conclusive evidence
that there is (are) no god(s) but so far no one has satisfactorily provided scientific evidence that there is one or more.


But the thing is that these Christian chappies, and all the other God-squadders, are somewhat up their own bottoms when it comes to evidence. They themselves have deliberately put their deity beyond science, laughably enough. I reckon that, if he really existed, he'd be well pissed off with 'em all for doing that. Their God can't be who he is unless he breaks every law known to science: he was always there, always will be, knows everything, can create stuff from nothing, never misses a trick, has dominion over each and every one of us. So I suppose we have to keep asking for evidence of his existence, though, sadly, it's a dead cert that none will be forthcoming. Their delusion is predicated on the fact that, no matter how intelligent they may be in other spheres of life, they shut their minds off entirely to the quest for evidence when it comes to God. What a way to live!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 06:38 PM

Stringsinger 11 Sep 13 - 05:38 PM, as far as you are commenting on my posts, I do not think a reply is needed other than inviting anyone interested to read them thoroughly, which you do not seem to have done. Please do not confuse me with others. Just one thing:
The very same thing can be said about the grave misconceptions of non-belief.
As you write (and I wrote before), non-belief does not have a coherent set of by-laws that would lend itself to conceptions or misconceptions, thus any such ideas would be fallacious right from the start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Sep 13 - 10:52 PM

Thank you for sparking the following insight Grishka

I guess this constant nay saying and deliberate misstating of what others have said is the militant Atheist analog to counting angels on the head of a pin?

One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight. Mr. Dawkins uses public "debates" to sell his books. Is there an easier way to pick a fight with all clergy than using the title of the book as an insult.

I can see now that there is no way to discuss this topic with some of you without it being a fight in your minds at least.

There remains no other course for me than to turn the other cheek. Have at it gentlemen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:26 AM

In which case you must have thick skinned arse cheeks.

Who are "they"?

Either trying to be serious or laughing at you, it remains the same. You seem incapable of seeing religion as something to do with just those interested or compelled by it and see rational people as those who have in their lives given religion some thought. Years ago you may have had a point as families indulged in ritual, school assemblies were religious in their format and you tended to accept its place in society without thought. Or at least that was the situation around here.

We are two or three generations in some areas beyond religion having any impact on life. (Add a couple of generations for Doncaster. ) It may pain you to know that most people in The UK either aren't exposed to religion as children or dismiss it as irrelevant once their balls drop.

Note the word irrelevant. Not evil, not to be challenged, not to be overthrown in some bloody crusade. Just irrelevant.

Today I read of yet another "if we have women bishops I will have to resign as a vicar" story. Bye then.

Most normal well adjusted people with a modicum of intelligence can't sign up to institutional misogyny, organised homophobia and promoting people in the same communities as equal or lower to others. That is far different to asserting an alternative.

Not having an imaginary friend is not an alternative to having one. It means you aren't in the market for considering one in the first place.

Please for once, for crying out loud, get that into your thick skull.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:16 AM

One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight.

I suppose it's like being a Non-Smoker. The Religious person is a Smoker, stinking it up for everyone else in the mistaken belief they are exercising & engendering free-will when in fact they are operating from a position of deep-seated self-righteousness and disregard for anyone but themselves.

Like religion, smoking isn't natural, nor is it good for you. On the contrary, like smoking it is harmful to oneself and others, however much it is indulged in terms of its cultural legacy and folklore. Yet it is our human right to breathe clean fresh air without being polluted and infected by smokers' fumes.

Atheism addresses itself to the simple matter of being free to live in a world without religious pollutants and carcinogenic concepts getting in the way of the pursuit of good sense and happiness.

Thus, I will be aggressive as a Non-Smoker - militant in my right for clean air free of poisons. I will be aggressive an an Atheist - militant in my right to open discourse and colloquy free of noxiously toxic god-dogmas that the religious find so comforting but to the greater human cause are as rancid as the leavings in an old ashtray.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:49 AM

You can form your moral compass by reading the invisible teachings on a Rizla.

I like the smoking analogy. Less people indulge than a few years ago. Lots give it up because it makes no sense carrying on. Some try and fail whilst cold turkey always drags at others.

Non smokers fail to see why we have to put up with the stink and hope they don't smoke in the same room as children and vulnerable adults who don't know it would be healthy to be in another room.

Smokers speak of their rights whilst impinging on the rights of the majority. They have lobbying bodies to stem the flow of intolerance to how they affect others and indeed their own long term health.

Snag is, we have a few 100 a day roll up merchants pushing their right to smoke on mudcat.org. They have hallucinations where non smokers are seen as anti smokers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:07 AM

Have any of these militant atheists ever stabbed believers in the neck? Indicted them under any new laws they have dreamt up? Threatened them with 14 years imprisonment for publishing their beliefs? I think not.

It is happening the other way.

Bollocks!

DtG, C, LB and SPS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:22 AM

Some "reborn" anti-smoking activists smoke secretly, others use e-cigarettes with or without nicotine and/or other dangerous substances, many become adipose or alcoholics etc. We must strive to reconcile rationality with other parts of human nature, which does not work if we ignore the latter. It strikes back, and may even become more harmful than before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:36 AM

'institutional misogyny, organised homophobia'

An interesting choice of clichés - they don't like women, men + men or women + women, so who else is left to like?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:01 AM

The little baby Jesus apparently


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:39 AM

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:43 AM

Musket, Your reaction is to chastise me for some new thoughts I have never uttered or even entertained?

And you class yourself among "rational people."

Interesting. If that is being rational, then enjoy it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:57 AM

Follow your own conscience


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:17 PM

I also rather like the smoking analogy. If you want to smoke yourself to death in the privacy of your own hovel, that's fine by me, though I might have a word if I like you enough. But if you do it in the presence of children or other vulnerable people, I'm on the attack there all right. Not because I'm a militant, but because my instinct is to protect people from harm, and in threatening their health you're infringing their rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:40 PM

I was having a pop at whoever wrote in your name at 10.52 on 11 September. I can't help it if either your login or your personality has been hijacked.

Me? yeah I reckon I'm rational but there again rational is a subjective stance because you can have an imaginary friend or think the government have put an implant in your brain or support Liverpool FC and still think that from your perspective you are rational.

I think people who rationalise tend to be rational.

Just a hunch.





Your posts tend to put you in a different category by my own rationalising but you would expect that or question why I still try to get it into your bloody head that you and your idol de Waal confuse non superstition with anti superstition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans blood of the Messiah
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 12:52 PM

Regarding your foray into UK newspapers. At least you choose to read a "rational" one.

Relatively speaking.

I am glad the Pope thinks his God likes non believers. Not too sure about his senior managers who seek to backtrack from his statements though.

I hope he realises the Co Messiahs and associated gnome will forgive him too. So long as he does good things that don't trouble his conscience.

Oh bugger.

There's the misogyny.

There's the cover up of serious abuse.

There's the taking money from the desperate poor and gilding statues with the proceeds.

There's the outrageous absurdity that a real man can read the mind of a fictional construction and demand a few billion people believe it in what he says.

There's the fact that they do.

Tell you what. How's about we accept that all religious people are religious but some are militantly so? It allows you to put sweet old ladies in the same silo as suicide bombers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:00 PM

I'm just back from a reconnaissance to Whalley Abbey. Eeeee, the there Abbots had a good life. Unlike the poor monks that is. Just think how much better life as a Messiah would be if you just took over the big house there and let us electrolytes have free reign in the local hostelries! Right near the holy hill of Pendle too.

Bollocks!

DtG, C, LB and SPS


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

Oh yea - Not too far from Knott End either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 02:10 PM

"I think people who rationalise tend to be rational. "

I think people who rationalize make up nonsense to justify their BS, which is far from rational.

verb: rationalize; 3rd person present: rationalizes; past tense: rationalized; past participle: rationalized; gerund or present participle: rationalizing; verb: rationalise; 3rd person present: rationalises; past tense: rationalised; past participle: rationalised; gerund or present participle: rationalising

    1.
    attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.
    "she couldn't rationalize her urge to return to the cottage"
    synonyms:        justify, explain, explain away, account for, defend, vindicate, excuse More
    "he tried to rationalize his behavior"


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 02:22 PM

The percentage of smokers among medical doctors is as high as among other academically trained adults (statistics from Germany, but not likely to be much different in other countries). I do not know about teachers and other persons of high social responsibility, but I do not see any indication that it is much lower there.

One method to become a rational person (in that respect) rarely works: to declare oneself publicly a militant non-smoker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:40 PM

"There remains no other course for me than to turn the other cheek. Have at it gentlemen."

Who started this thread in the first place?

It was based on a theory also stated that atheists must have had some trauma in order to adopt an atheist position. That's an agenda.

It was stated that atheists insult the clergy by asserting their non-belief. A fight ensued and now it's "lets you and him fight". That's an agenda.

If the clergy is insulted, let them express their views on this thread. It would be instructive to discuss this with them.

"As you write (and I wrote before), non-belief does not have a coherent set of by-laws that would lend itself to conceptions or misconceptions, thus any such ideas would be fallacious right from the start."

But these ideas are being presented on this thread as if there were somehow a unified "militant atheist" position. That's an agenda.

"One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight. Mr. Dawkins uses public "debates" to sell his books."

This is patently untrue and the problem with this thread to begin with. Dawkins is impugned by someone for somehow just wanting to "sell his books". This is reflective of the reactionary stance of those "selling their religion" by posting threads that say that atheism is a religion, a false accusation and belies an agenda to discredit atheism.

Dawkins is vitally concerned with educating the public and the denigration of science by the smothering yoke of religion. I doubt he has made even a tenth of the money that has been made by the authors of the "Left Behind" series, Jerry Jenkins being one.

Christians are giving themselves a bad name by intolerance, violence and propaganda. Whenever atheism is attacked for whatever reason or for whatever rationale, it becomes a religious "cause celebre" through the issuance of threads that make a false claim replete with labels and name-calling.

When non-believers protest titles such as heading this thread, they are somehow smacked down as being too "militant". That term has a pejorative connotation and as I remember was used as a weapon against the Civil Rights Movement to discredit that.

You can't step on a toe and not expect the person attached to it to yell "ouch!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:54 PM

Stringsinger, it was you who started this thread (even if you chose its title from another one). I understood it to be about possible analogies between certain kinds of atheism and religion. In a bad BS tradition, the thread gravitates towards other topics discussed in about 27 threads before. If you and others are not willing to read other posts, why do you post at all?

If you do not want to be subsumed with other atheists, please do not subsume me with anyone else. When you quote me, your comment must not refer to other people's opinion or alleged agenda. In fact I have not read here anyone suggesting the existence of a unified "militant atheist" position, quite the contrary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:47 PM

Nah then, el Gnomo, in spite of doing The Three Fishes at Mitton with Mother at least five times a year, and driving her over t'Nick for the views (we hob-nobbed in Downham last time I was up, and she swears that her and me dad almost bought Sabden post office many moons ago), I've never actually visited Whalley Abbey. Do you recommend it? Would I get Mother round if I could cadge a wheelchair? I could be talking early October here...!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:49 PM

There is no unified "militant atheist" organization.   None of you pay any attention to what anyone else says except to try to one up the other person. That is not a good formula for productive organizational meetings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:51 PM

Grats on 100 posts Stringy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:04 AM

Dunno about Germany but the BMA polled doctors in The UK a few years ago as part of a paper published in The BMJ. My Athens account is down otherwise I would have the reference to hand.

Back then circa 2004, with over 3000 replies to the poll it extrapolated to 0.04 or 0.05% of doctors. It will have fallen too. I work alongside doctors and am married to one. A large number of of our friends are doctors. I don't know a single one who smokes. Nurses are a different situation mind. ....

Back in the 60s my Dad's GP advised him to stop smoking. I'll stop when you stop said my Dad. They both died of lung cancer in the mid 70s.

Smoking cessation was my pet subject when chairing a PCT (health authority in Blair Speke) and out of over 20000 doctors I doubt you would need to take your shoes and socks off to carry on counting the number of smokers here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:41 AM

Interesting how one can talk about "them" "they" etc for dozens of withering posts on various threads then have the bare arsed cheek to say there is no such thing.

Interestingly you are right. Lots of people had to spell it out to you though before it became your own stance at last. Must have been that barbecued donkey on the road to Damascus.

Whalley Abbey is worth a punt if you are in the area. The annual haj to Knott End may be a good diversion en route. As someone who comes from Creswell originally, I would ask you to ensure your satnav gets specific instructions as Whalley Common near my family tree fodder is about 120 miles out. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 04:19 AM

Whalley Abbey is a picturesque ruin & well worth a visit, along with the nearby gatehouse - railway fans will love the viaduct, whilst the tea room provides at atmospheric setting for all manner of refreshment.

Less well known is that the bulk of the medieval choir stalls (c. 1430) ended up in the parish church of St. Mary and All Saints where they remain to this day looking as fresh as the day they were carved. These are the work of one Mr Eatough (how rare it is that the name of the sculptors come down to us) and represent some of the finest misericords in the country, with all manner of the didactic scenes - folklore fans will love the 'Green Men' as well as the vivid scenes of medieval vernacular life & comedic depictions of domestic strife. Unique to Whalley is an early English proverb concerning the shoeing of the goose; the image is found elsewhere (i.e. York Minster on a column capital) but never with the text which makes the Whalley carving so fascinating.

Problem is, Whalley Parish Church is only open for two hours each weekend, making visiting hardly convenient - but it's well worth narrowing your window for.

Foliate Head, Whalley Parish Church, c. 1430

Other Whalley Abbey misericords can be found in Blackburn Cathedral and Cliviger. In Blackburn is Mr Eatough's remarkable depiction of The Fall, though they haven't survived as well as those at Whalley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 08:30 AM

No problems Messiah S - It is pretty flat. Henry VIII saw to that. Probably very forward sighted of him...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM

Yeah, old 'Enry knew how to deal with Papist heretics!

Reformation of the church. Got a nice ring to it wouldn't you say? Reformation was more difficult in Tudor ties though, no bulldozers or Ruston Bucyrus wrecking balls. In fact the only sound of balls was, perchance, the sound of medieval gnomes running round shouting Bollocks!

Talking of old buildings, I mentioned to my lad that we will be visiting friends in Canada early next year, he pointed out that my house is older than Canada. Now... I know The Rockies are young, by mountain standards but makes you think, doesn't it? I was skiing at Panorama the other year and I can tell you, the whole resort turned up one day on the back of big trucks....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 12:25 PM

That is not a good formula for productive organizational meetings.

I seriously doubt whether you'll find any atheists lamenting the lack of available "productive organizational meetings", frankly. I mean, we would have literally nothing to talk about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

"I'm here for an argument." (Monty Python reference)

"No, you're not!"

"Yes, I am!"

"You most certainly are not."

"But I am!"

"No, you're not."

"Now, look here, my good man, I paid for an argument, and that's what I'm going to get!"

"No, you didnt'."

"I DID!!!"

"Did not."

"This is outrageous!"

"No, it isn't."

Etc...etc...etc... Good for light amusement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 01:22 PM

That isn't argument.

Yes it is

No it isn't , it's contradiction.

Same thing.

No it isn't.

Yeah but LH, isn't it nice when you go fishing, lay a bit of ground bait, drop a maggot or lugworm and wait. Your day wasn't wasted when they start biting.

I suppose you can either use media to form your view or use your own experience. The former is based on a larger sample set and the latter therefore more subjective.

I was in a church the other week, not for a service but in the building and an old biddy shouted at me to take my hat off before both feet were over the threshold.

Three weeks ago, we were guests at a Sikh equivalent of a christening. A bloke put a scarf on my head whether I wanted it or not before I even got to the ruddy threshold.

A few years ago, I was in Dubai during Ramadan. Everybody I was with told me to get some water to stop dehydrating. But I don't wish to appear disrespectful? Why? You're not a Muslim? (Everywhere has places to eat and drink, but behind curtains and blinds so those fasting don't have to watch you and get thirsty...)

Which of the three cults above are portrayed as the most militant?

And then those who exhibit superstition have the gall to ask if rational people have a militant wing...........


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:46 PM

Last week we visited the cathedral in Amalfi. A stern young woman at the entrance insisted that my wife draped her shoulders in a provided scarf ('twas 33 Celsius at the time). The missus is a lady of maturing years and she was hardly dressed to kill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:14 PM

Hey! Co-inciwhatsit again - Gino thingy Italian Chef bloke is in Amalfi on the box as I type this. How do you do it Messiahs?

Bollocks

DtG etc etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:17 PM

You've clearly been visiting the wrong churches, Musket. They're certainly not all like that. ;-) I avoid places with too many silly little damned rules, religious or otherwise, and I trust you do too.

Meanwhile...

"I've had enough of this!" (storming out)

"No, you haven't!" (spoken from behind desk with the certainty of one who knows)

"Oh, SHUT UP!!!" (angry voice fading down hallway, exit stage left)

***

One thing to bear in mind, though. There are a number of cultures which insist, for instance, that one remove one's footwear before entering any dwelling place. This isn't done for religious reasons, it's done for other reasons. Even if YOU don't normally do that in your own dwelling place, it would be churlish and very impolite not to honour a host's wishes in that or some other regard when one is a guest. Accordingly, I honour the various religious OR cultural formalities when I'm a guest somewhere, and so would any other person who is reasonably sensible. To do so is NOT to surrender your own rights in some way. It's merely good manners. And you'd expect others to honour your rules of normal comportment if they came into your house, wouldn't you? If you don't wish to comply with basic formalities when visiting somewhere, why even visit in the first place?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:30 PM

LH, Musket is not stupid, he is just prone to trolling when he feels like it. Not always, but often. Best pay no attention. Nobody can be forced to invest energy in careful reading and thinking to his best ability. Sad that interesting threads are being ruined (by the usual suspects, plural), but not ours to help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 11:30 PM

Musket does not read what you write. He scans for keywords and trots out his preselected reply for that keyword. Same for Shaw, and Stringy. But they are not dogmatic. They are "rational", "free thinkers."

Seems like Musket's latest bugaboo is pronouns! LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 02:39 AM

Yeah but I only do it because I'm not intelligent enough to debate at your esteemed level.

Just think. Once you have dissuaded we thickos from posting, you can start agreeing with each other with no contradiction to peg you back.

So with that in mind, here's my word of the week.

Delusion.



LH knows when to ignore me and when to have a chat without any help from others.

I take it the gloves are off then.   Here Jerk! When you say people only pick up on certain words, do you mean they pick up on the bits you are subsequently embarrassed for saying or are you annoyed that what you think is important to debate is ignored by slightly more evolved species?

I might struggle with pronouns but I know how to weave Darwin into God botherer waffle. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 05:44 AM

Musket, as I wrote to Stringsinger, I do not want to be mistaken for anyone else with who happens to agree with me on some particular point.

LH can speak for himself. I can hardly believe that he has told you any news in his post of 13 Sep 13 - 03:17 PM, so he might have mistaken the intention of your "clarifying" message of 13 Sep 13 - 01:22 PM. In fact you seem to confess trolling, as you did before.

I would like to dissuade anyone from posting far below her or his own best intellectual level, but it is not in my power. Trolling means provoking others to do the same, and thus trying to ruin the conversation. Successful trollers will rarely be congratulated by others than themselves and their accomplices.

(To be honest, in spite of the OP's announcement I did not realistically expect this thread to become any better than it turned out, so I cannot be disappointed. Just saying.)

Whereas good jokes and really witty remarks are welcome in most circumstances.

When I feel too lazy to read and think about a problem properly, I just refrain from posting. When I feel like smalltalk or musing, I choose adequate threads. What about creating a thread "My Bad Experiences With Zealots"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:33 AM

Gino thingy Italian Chef bloke is in Amalfi on the box as I type this. How do you do it Messiahs?

Yep, saw that. AND I brought back a bottle of Limoncello, which I lugged down 2000 steps from Ravello to Minori. AND I have a bottle of Prosecco. AND a lemon. So Limoncello cocktail, a la Gino, here I come! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 11:29 AM

Snag is, I'm Musket not a troll. Troll is an abusive term applied sometimes to those deserving of the title but mostly as a way of disagreeing with a stance without a decent argument to put forward instead.

I hate to disappoint though so here goes. Go and get fucked. Not nice I know but when you try to be objective and it doesn't work then you take the piss and that doesn't work. No matter what you put or how you put it certain people read what they think not what is written.

Go and get fucked is a decent riposte under such circumstances.

I thought setting up a religion would be good because I would be omnipotent rather than impotent.

Fellow Messiah and associated gnome.

Do you think we should invite Gino, one of my favourite telly chefs to join our cult? He could organise the butties at the next bingo session, I thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

Musket, please note that I do not use the word troll - I even violated English language by inventing "troller", to go with individual acts of "trolling". In my opinion, that means "deliberately provoking heated disputes without caring for serious and sound argumentation or one's own reputation". If your definition differs, take the longer version. No insult intended, just a diagnosis.

In fact you may have stepped right into Jack's trap, so that he now scores a point without really deserving it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:57 PM

A troll is not simply someone you disagree with. Do take that and put it under your belt. It's quite important. If anyone around here is a troll, it's the kind of person who obsessively starts thread after thread in a futile attempt to rile "atheists". Do you know anyone like that? No names, no pack drill and all that.

Yes, Gino could make the butties. Or bruchetta. Or crostini. I wonder whether he could conjure up the amazing monkfish and king prawn curry I had at Life's A Beach tonight. God I'm happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 09:21 PM

well, a fairly interesting title for a thread - but not interesting enough to entice me to read more than the last 10 posts. you guys can bicker. i am a socialist and - i suppose- quite a militant atheist. you religious types are just annoying and silly. really, the church of wales has just approved the idea of women bishops - how fascinating. and do you christian types still believe that a disobedient child should be taken to the edge of the village and stoned to death? (deuteronomy) heaven? - a gold see-through hotel where the birds of the air feast on the eyeballs of princes and kings?(revelations) delightful. i am also a birdwatcher but that sounds horrible - still,if that is what you are living your lives for, who am i to mock?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket saying Damn!
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:43 AM

Oh dear Guest... I laid that one to see if Jerk the Sea Cadet actually read posts. My theory being he is so up his own arse he wouldn't look a gift horse up the posterior.

You blew it. Ah well...

My definition is irrelevant. It is the over use of the word troll that bemuses me. At the end of the day, all Internet debate on this level is a form of onanism. If anyone takes it more seriously, more fool them. BS stands for wanking if you think about it. Serious stuff is above the line, musically speaking.

achmelvich. A lot of what you say is echoed on half a dozen threads by many people. The common link being an immigrant to the American Deep South who is on some crusade or other taunting anybody intelligent enough to question population control by fairy story. Being a twitcher you are in good company. Some on this thread twitch a bit when posting.

Ok fellow co Messiah. But ask him to dig up a truffle or two to bring with him to flake on a nice pasta in Gorgonzola sauce, a la Sardinian style. Tescos knock out cheap half decent chianti but I suggest a g&t first to numb the taste buds.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:22 AM

The GUEST on 14 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM was I, as you may have guessed. I never call anyone a troll. If I were using that word for everybody with whom I sometimes disagree, it would be a synonym for human being (including myself).

Also, I generally do not wish to comment on the moral quality of posters. (Exceptions are possible, but it takes more for that than found in this thread.) Musket or anybody else, if you feel insulted, I solemnly apologize.

This is Stringsinger's thread, and he wanted a serious discussion (though he hoped to "win" it). The character of this forum implies that many posts are polemic or insincere; reasonable people cannot do any better than either ignore them or only discuss those aspects that are really interesting.

Posters can have a variety of attitudes at their disposal. Sometimes it is not immediately clear in which mode they are, that is why I thought my hint of 13 Sep 13 - 03:30 PM helpful. LH did not protest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket being obvious
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM

Granted. I didn't think you were and I replied generally rather than specifically. I tell Jerk the Sea Cadet to get fucked occasionally but that's because you can't educate pork. He started all this nonsense in order to sneer at non Christians, asserting that yoummust have had some trauma or other in the past, otherwise why wouldn't you have an imaginary friend? By asserting religious tendencies as the norm, he insulted a lot of people.

I just make sure he doesn't forget it, that's all. He is in denial about his earlier stance mind, so there is hope yet. But his earlier nonsense is published now all the same so nobody has to take my interpretation up, judge for themselves.

It is difficult debating an oxymoron and the second post in this thread, from me, points out that you cannot say militant atheist as that would be an assertive phrase and atheist as a term includes the many for whom religion is irrelevant so the word is passive.

You can hate religion, you can be proactive in eradicating it from influencing the rest of us. But as per the analogy further up this thread, don't confuse non smokers with anti smokers. A colleague of mine smokes but has tried and tried to stop. She is an advocate of making them illegal drugs and refers to smoking in the home as child abuse where children happen to live. She isn't a non smoker. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM

If you cannot educate pork, abusing it is not likely to look any more reasonable. To simply return an abuse is not what I feel to be good style either, particularly if from another thread.

Debate an oxymoron: it is possible to discuss whether it is an oxymoron. I am not convinced that militant (= fighting, aggressive) atheists do not exist, and this thread makes me more inclined to the opposite. If you feel "militant" to mean "fighting without justification", we can decide which definition to use.

(Note that "Ecclesia militans" or "l'Eglise militante" - "the struggling Church" was a traditional proud self-description of Christian institutions "on earth", contrasted to "Ecclesia triumphans" in heaven. Their enemy was Satan, obviously a justified fight. Occasional collateral damage to civilians in his vicinity, such as witches, heretics, etc., could not be avoided.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 08:21 AM

I am not convinced that militant (= fighting, aggressive) atheists do not exist

Hmm. Well, I'm an atheist and I'm often pretty aggressive in condemning some of the things people of faith get up to. Trying to force it down other people's throats (including their own children's, often under the dishonest guise of "religious education") being the most egregious of their sins. Acting as though a world awash with religious symbolism and the tacit acceptance of God's existence should be the default and deserving of our boundless respect. But I'm not militant because I'm an atheist. I honestly don't care what other people choose to believe, and am hardly likely to ever bring it up as a discussion point (I only react to stuff here, never start it). Don T is not an atheist and I'd put him at approximately on the same point on the anti-proselytising scale as meself (sorry, Don). Militant atheist is a very silly expression, and those who persist in employing it deserve all the derision they get.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM

Steve, you are talking about half a dozen different issues. If we cannot agree on the sort of people about which we would like to discuss, a discussion is indeed pointless.

My point in my earlier message was that Dawkins (who describes himself as a militant atheist, and asks his followers to do the same) has some traits of an ideologist, and effectively works as a guru or "saint" to many persons who have no inclination to science at all. I think we have to warn against this effect - no matter who is to blame morally -, since it can lead to the worst kind of fanaticism. Note for example that Darwin was and is instrumentalized as a "saint" not only of capitalism, but also of racism. Atheism per se is not the culprit, neither is "anti-proselytism".

Mixing various distinct issues can make for strong polemics, at the expense of strong argument. For example, I fail to see what mentioning intolerant representatives of one philosophy has to do with the justification of any other one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:40 AM

However Dawkins describes himself, if he does indeed describe himself as a "militant atheist" which I would like to see proven, he is one of the rational outspoken proponents of non-belief and sees no reason why any religious belief should be treated as sacrosanct, which is far more dangerous thing than any ideas that he may have.

There are those who would sit on the fence in intellectual snobbery and refuse to take any position on matters such as these without actually appraising the value of these ideas but resort to ad hominem condemnation of individuals whose ideas they don't like.

Among non-believers, there is no reasonable threat of fanaticism since there is no unifying ideology among them.

As to science, there is no one on Mudcat that has a monopoly on this game. Science is constantly changing as new empiricism replaces the old. Who here has the authority to claim superior knowledge about it?

BTW, this thread is a continuation of one that has thankfully left and the subject matter was not started by me. Note that I used the same title as the other one.

Grishka's accusation that I wanted "to win it" is not true. I really wanted a decent discussion to take place, one where I might learn something. I think what I've learned so far is that legitimate discussions of this nature often turn into "one-up-man-ship" with pretentious erudition replacing honest communication.

I still maintain that the labeling of "militant atheism" is a weapon used by religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions otherwise they wouldn't be so defensive and use derogatory labels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 12:48 PM

Grishka is demonising Dawkins. And my short post was a response to one matter, the nonsense of the concept of the militant atheist. Sometimes one has to mention other things in order to make one's point, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

See for example Dawkins's most widely publicized homily, ca. 2008, also available on YouTube and directly at TED.
Grishka's accusation that I wanted "to win it" is not true.
All the better; it was an observation rather than an accusation, but I happily take your word to the contrary.

I agree that there are other dangerous ideologies, but this one is sometimes overlooked, hence my warning. My own ideas of rationality and realism are somewhat different. If people wish to discuss Dawkins's video critically, I can elaborate. It does not mention his most controversial theories about the evolution of religion, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 12:38 AM

This is too rich to ignore.


"I still maintain that the labeling of "militant atheism" is a weapon used by religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions otherwise they wouldn't be so defensive and use derogatory labels. "

Transcript for Richard Dawkins on militant atheism

http://dotsub.com/view/76cca510-aaf5-47cd-a9cb-c0c3afaa74fe/viewTranscript/eng

"No, what I want to urge upon you -- (Laughter) -- instead what I want to urge upon you is militant atheism." - Richard Dawkins from his TED talk.

Darwin said, "I have never been an atheist in the same sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally an 'agnostic' would be the most correct description of my state of mind."

He even became uncharacteristically tetchy with Edward Aveling. Aveling was a militant atheist who failed to persuade Darwin to accept the dedication of his book on atheism.

- Richard Dawkins from his TED talk.

Since Dawkins uses the phrase in public fora, Stringsinger just admitted that Mr. Dawkins is

"religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions"

So according to Stringsinger what Mr. Dawkins preaches is not only a religion but Even Dawkins himself does not really believe it.

I'm pretty sure that admission pretty much wipes out every point that Stringsinger has so far tried to make about religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:04 AM

If I may enter a humorous aside or two at this time...

Musket? You mentioned the phrase "Go and get fucked!" as being a decent riposte or something like that?

Well, the bars all over this nation seem to be filled with lost and frustrated people attempting to do just that, night after night! ;-) Most of them also seem not to succeed at it most of the time. Perhaps this has led to the modern rise in atheism, as these people's faith has been so badly damaged by their most fervent prayers not being answered. ;-D

Meanwhile...

"An argument is a series of logical propositions put forth to make a point and establish that one viewpoint is more credible than another..."

"No, it isn't."

"Yes, it is!"

"I'm sorry, but it most certainly is not."

"It IS!!!"

"No, it isn't!"

"How can you say that?"

"How can I say what?"

"You contradicted what I said!"

"No I didn't."

"YOU DID!!!!!!!!"

(DING!)

"Oh, sorry. Time's up. You have to pay me another 5 pounds if we're going to continue."

"WHAT????????? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!!!!"

"Sorry. I can't argue unless you pay another 5 pounds..."

"I'll be damned if I'll pay you another 5 pounds!"

"dum-de-dum" (humming and looking up at the ceiling)

"Oh, come ON!"

"dum-de-dum"

"Oh...all right! Here's another fiver!" (slams it down on the desk)

"Right then. We were having an argument..."

"No we weren't."

"YES WE WERE!!!!!!"

(and so on)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:09 AM

I'm sure he would speak of his "followers" in the twitter sense but even Dawkins would, I presume, not wish to see "follower" described in the belonging sense.

It seems easy, too easy in fact to elevate his stance to that of providing an alternative to religion. I have read some of his books and nowhere did I see evidence for this. As he is a scientist I reckon if he had such a mission, he would give clear evidence to promote it.

Grishka. Abuse may not be clever or pretty, but when given out in equal measure to the general stereotyping abuse hurled at the majority of "religion is to do with others not me" rational people, your recognition of who is providing abuse says much about where you might stand on this debate.

Take Seaman Stains for instance. He seems so fascinated by Dawkins that you wonder what his beef is. If you mention that religions brainwash children he will naturally assume you point your carpet towards Oxford and worship him.

I used to worship his missus though when she was a scantily clad Dr Who assistant back in the 70s.

But that's a different sort of worship to any religious one.

And much more healthy for that matter. .....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:39 AM

Everything can be said to brainwash children, Musket, and what is foremost in brainwashing them, as far as I'm concerned is the endless political propaganda foisted on them by governments, political parties, politicians, and the media...oh, and commercial advertising and entertainment, of course, which brainwashes them into buying all kinds of things and living a certain lifestyle!

Most children are far more mesmerized by those 2 huge influences than they are by religion, and give far more attention to those as well. It's primarily adults who are really interested in religion, not children. Serious interest in religion generally arises in the late teens...or considerably later in adulthood, but belief in political and commercial trends is established from a very early age in virtually everyone.

Religion is a minor force now in the developed world compared to what it used to be...but politics and commercialism absolutely dominate present society. So, why are you worrying so much about a mouse, when living in the presence of a hungry tiger and a rogue elephant?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:05 AM

Here's an interesting, respectful atheist-Christian dialogue:
http://www.upworthy.com/a-debate-between-an-atheist-and-a-christian-has-quite-a-surprising-result?g=2


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:39 AM

"Religion is a minor force now in the developed world compared to what it used to be..."

And that, I suspect, is what "militant religionists" are so worried about - that combined with the fact that their beliefs are no longer guaranteed automatic respect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 05:05 AM

Hi LH. Your list of materialistic and other distractions. Religion should be in the list rather than sitting outside of it. Religion may provide a word called salvation but iTunes provides entertainment, escapism, nostalgia and is just as effective at keeping you a paid up member of the poor and meek. Politics is the art of keeping you there and feeling grateful.

Hey Joe! Common sense debate isn't in the spirit of these threads. Some of us try forming a new Mudcat.org inspired religion (how cool is that? ) and you don't even offer to call bingo for us.   Why would I want to be interested in grown up debate on the subject. (Note grown up and common sense, the temptation to say rational would set me off on my usual tangent. )

LH's list is what is available today. If any of those distractions were available in medieval times, would religion have been so popular? After all, I am typing on my ipad but as a youngster I thought cassette tapes were the height of cool.

By the way. Jerk dug up the hatchet and restarted the name calling not me. I was happy to fly over and buy him a pint, name my kids after him etc but he took the gloves off. Huh! I'm supposed to not turn the other cheek.   Mind you, turning the other cheek can have unintended consequences around sailors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:05 AM

Musket, my "recognition of who is providing abuse" is guided by the flow of the conversation, not based on any aspiration to higher justice. Whenever I can, I avoid such assessments altogether; they may however serve as a hint to all readers. Please consider the matter finished, as far as the past is concerned.

If you ask me whether I wish to support Jack's "agenda", the answer is no, as can easily be seen from my earlier posts.—

Dawkins has frequently been asked whether his busy activities constituted a cult. Of course he denied, but he may not be able to stop it, even if he wanted. Remember that Darwin spoke out clearly against all ideological "Darwinisms" - to no avail. Dawkins would claim the same for himself, but somewhat less credibly, since he is involved in propagandistic activities, feeding on the aura of science. Now if Darwin could not prevent Social/Racial etc. Darwinisms, Dawkins may even less be able to prevent some "Dawkinsisms".

(A video snippet where the "cult" question is asked is mainly interesting for mentioning two German theologians from the first half of the 20th century, Paul Tillich and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as if they were news - a different topic, though.)

And yes, Dawkins has followers in the traditional sense, persons who hold the belief that his words are based on Science and thus true. I know some of them from personal acquaintance, who would not even read a beginner's introduction to natural sciences. Like the earlier self-styled Darwinists, they project a lot of their own ideas onto their idol. See my post of 11 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM. Whoever wishes to appear as a reasonable atheist, had best not refer to Dawkins as an authority.

Demonizing Dawkins? To avert demons, they must be called by their proper names, which may be "Legion" rather than "Dawkins".


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 07:35 AM

No issue with you on anything you just posted.

However.

Those caught in the crossfire of "what is an atheist and is it militant?" tend to be those for whom religion is irrelevant as well as those who actively conspire to thwart it's advance.

If a God Botherer knocks on the door of someone offering happy enlightenment and gets told to bugger off or the hounds will be released. .. This is not militant anti religion but a polite wish not to imagine those without faith are interested in it.

Quoting philosophers and debates on what constitutes theism and atheism misses the point. Unless you give religion some thought in the first place and make a subsequent stance, no label applies. I can play a banjo (confession time) and my mate who can't calls me a banjoist. As he can't play one and has never shown interest, could I call him an abanjoist?

It would seem odd. Especially if some ignorant bugger tries saying his lack of interest was down to trauma at some young age. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 11:18 AM

The "God Botherers" and the "Anti-God Botherers" are cut out of the same piece of cloth as far as I'm concerned, Musket. They're the same psychological type. They're both annoying, obsessive pests on a personal crusade. ;-) When they hear the word "God", they are drawn to it like a fly to shit, either to attack it or praise it, but without any real thought about it. The thing is, one of them is the front side of that piece of cloth (a loud and tasteless plaid), and the other is the back side of that piece of cloth.

The obsession of both of them is the idea that they have "the Truth", the one vital Truth that saves!, and they must convince everyone of it in order to "save" them from some dire consequences that would follow if they believed the guy on the other side of that metaphorical piece of cloth.

They're both full of it. And full of themselves too.

"God", for such people, is just a word they quickly react to with a standard kneejerk for or against, but with barely the slightest notion what that word might actually mean...suggest...or point to. They think in crude mental symbols...if they think at all...but mostly they just react to the symbol either for or against it, and that isn't really thinking at all. That's just saluting a long established prejudice, over and over again.

What they want is absolute certainty. They will not find it. Life is not that simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 12:58 PM

I suppose I was using a local interpretation of God Botherer. It is largely meant to mean door to door Jesus.

I don't see many door to door anti religion. Come to think about it, neither do I see door to door Islam, Sikh, Hindu, Jews, Hari Krishna or The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Quite a few flavours of Christianity though.... They have septic knuckles and broken fingers around here, mainly for not realising most people will slam the door regardless of whether they put their hand in the frame to prevent you shutting it.

Yeah, quite a few people arent religious. The anti crowd include those who don't tolerate other religions. I note that in Dumbfuckistan, a republican politician has said that he will use his powers to kill off cable stations that run Al Jazeehra and the tea party bigots are telling advertisers that the station is a front for the Taliban. Whilst in Zanzibar, Christians are being acid faced by Muslims for err.. Being Christians?

No, you don't need to look to so called atheists to see who hates religion. Enough in their own pathetic ranks. Not surprising when their main attraction is appealing to ill educated peasants eh?

Life certainly isn't simple. Unless you have a stance and an agenda. Then it's very very simple. Especially for the agenda driven clowns who can't accept that others may not have an agenda. You listening Jerk?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:31 PM

Yeah...I'm not too impressed by the door-to-door religious thing either. We certainly agree on that. ;-) The reason militant anti-God-botherers don't go door to door, though, isn't because they're reasonable people. It's because they wouldn't wish to resemble the God-botherers in such an outward fashion by going door-to-door preaching...horrors no!!! They're too "smart" for that. ;-D

Instead, they rave on to whoever they can online, in coffee shops, at the watercooler, on the phone, at the bar, at the party...wherever they happen to get another delicious chance to express their hatred for the very idea of "God" and "religion". They are tiresome bores, and they won't shut up about it.

You're quite right about the pointless attacks made by many religious groups on other religious groups. History is full of the sad tale of that, and it stands right alongside the sad tale of wars fought over national differences, cultural differences, racial differences, language differences, competing trade concerns, competing political theories, etc...

It basically comes down to this: A person with a healthy psychology is interested in people who are different, and wants to hear their ideas and find out more about them. A person with an unhealthy psychology is deeply afraid of people who are different, and wants to either avoid them or somehow eliminate them. Both kinds of people can be found amongst both the religious and the secular people in this world. I try to hang around with the ones who aren't hostile to those who are different...and who are happy to coexist in the presence of those who are different from themselves....and I don't really care if they are secular or religious in their viewpoint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:13 PM

On the Ted Talk, there was laughter after Dawkin's comment about "militant atheism". The point was missed, when Dawkins said "he was not about to preach atheism. He wanted to assure people that it was not what he was going to do. After the comment about "militant atheism" he said, "But that's putting it too negatively".   This "militant atheism" was more of a joke and taken out of context subverted his real message.

"So according to Stringsinger what Mr. Dawkins preaches is not only a religion but Even Dawkins himself does not really believe it."

This statement is not only untrue but convoluted logic. I have never said that what Mr.
Dawkins preaches is a religion. I never said that Mr. Dawkins preached anything so what
I have said is not only taken out of context but my words have been twisted to win an argument.

Grischka, there is nothing here to win. There is no evidence as a basis for an idea of any god. Making any assertions without scientific evidence is a dangerous practice especially if it's used to attack non-belief.

As to the notion of a cult, non-belief defies any cult like qualities whatever because the main idea is to get people to think for themselves, not follow any doctrine. Dawkins is expressing his own ideas which is mostly about people who are science-deniers. Non-belief is not a cult and it is redundant to say this but non-belief is not belief. A cult
depends on a belief system and if you really know about cults they have the following
characteristics.

1. People are punished when they leave the cult.
2. There is a blind obeisance to leaders. (there is none toward Dawkins especially on my part)
3. Past associations with family members or friends not associated with the cult are cut off.
4. Cult people have to be re-programmed.
5. There is an attempt to exploit or berate people who don't quite go along. (Dawkins doesn't do that).

Hence, non-belief is not a cult nor is Dawkins a cult leader.

As to knowledge of science, there are a great many people in belief and non-belief
systems who don't know science and within the scientific community, there are those
who feel that they don't know about science either because it is constantly being
questioned and notions are changed.

""I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." quote by Richard Feynman might easily apply to science in general since it is in constant motion.
But contemporary scientific evidence is all we have to rely on for real assessments about the world. The rest is conjecture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:34 PM

""The obsession of both of them is the idea that they have "the Truth", the one vital Truth that saves!, and they must convince everyone of it in order to "save" them from some dire consequences that would follow if they believed the guy on the other side of that metaphorical piece of cloth.

They're both full of it. And full of themselves too.
""

It's not often that I see a statement from you which I consider egregious rubbish LH, but this is one such.

The vast majority of Atheists (so called by those of religious bent) never even consider the existence of a Deity and never notice the existence of religion unless it is thrust into their lives by evangelising clowns who raise the subject to attack the non religious, because they are told it is their duty to bring religion to the unbeliever.

Guess what? The unbelievers couldn't give a rustic fuck, as long as the faithful leave them alone, but the bottom line is that the buggers cannot resist the urge to convert others.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:48 PM

Further to my last, I know of no non believer who has ever tried to convert any other person to non belief.

Taking the piss, or making serious points about indoctrination of young and impressionable children, is not by any stretch of the imagination an attempt to convert.

It is expressing an opinion, an essential part of free speech, and it is the right of every human being to do that.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:52 PM

Stringsinger, I'm afraid we do not understand one another in the least. Never mind. I wrote about one point which I think some of us understood; I could write a lot more, but nobody seems really interested. Whoever thinks he won may buy himself a drink.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:55 PM

Stringsinger, you could well be bashing your head against a brick wall here. Grishka, Hawk and (worst of all by a country mile) Wacko Jacko are either scared Christians or scared fence-sitters. Neither you, me, Musket nor Dawkins have anywhere near enough passion to take on the stupidity of Christianity and lose one second's sleep over it. Be a shrugger of the shoulders instead, and just remember that the average "atheist" sort of vaguely dislikes every religion. On the other hand, every Christian, Hindu, Muslim or whatever hates and fears with vehemence every other religion bar their own (they'll protest, of course, but if what I say is untrue there wouldn't be separate religions, would there?) Every big religion has its own version of "we are the one true faith". Even Musket and myself, the new Messiahs, preach The New Truth, that truth wot trumps all older truths, innit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket evangelical as ever
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:59 AM

Amen to that co Messiah.

Don had this wonderful habit of getting to the point. That I fully agree with him is good I suppose but even if I didn't, he deserves a place as a guru of our new true religion, whatever we bloody well call it.

I can tell you exactly how good our new religion is. I was so angry with the heretics that I used my god powers to bring down the mudcat.org site yesterday.

Don't underestimate my dire prognostications!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 04:45 AM

if I understand you correctly stringsinger,[15 sept 11;40] I beg to differ on a couple of points, or maybe just clarify.
there may be no unifying ideology among non believers [in God] in general, as most are non believers by carelessness rather than conviction. but among the latter atheism by definition surely involves a unifying ideology,-ie. everything must be explained naturalistically, without reference to a Creator.
as a result of that ideology their own religious position of there being no God leads to the sacrosanct belief in particles to people evolution ,despite lacking any observational evidence to support that belief. that this is a pretty much militant position is evidenced IMO by the outcry if evolutionism is even questioned ,especially in the classroom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 05:58 AM

Steve, you replied to Stringsinger on 16 Sep 13 - 06:55 PM
Grishka, Hawk and (worst of all by a country mile) Wacko Jacko are either scared Christians or scared fence-sitters. Neither you, me, Musket nor Dawkins have anywhere near enough passion to take on the stupidity of Christianity and lose one second's sleep over it.
What I read in this thread (not in others that I did not bother to read at all) sounds quite passionate and even angry, frequently resorting to polemic rhetorics.

What gives you the impression that I am scared? Or, in other words, who of the two of us sounds scared? If you wish to allay the suspicion to have personal psychological motives, what rhetorics to you think adequate?

Those who want to read about my own general position on religion can do so in threads like the one we recently had about Biblical mythology. I see no point in repeating it here, where it is not the declared topic, and few posters take the trouble to state what exactly they want to discuss. With Musket's words (15 Sep 13 - 02:43 AM), it is a form of onanism (- to each his own sexual preference, but I dissociate from any insult to Onan).


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 06:58 AM

most are non believers by carelessness rather than conviction. but among the latter atheism by definition surely involves a unifying ideology,-ie. everything must be explained naturalistically, without reference to a Creator.

Heheh. Translator's note:

"...most are non-believers because they couldn't care less rather than out of conviction (the distinction, pete, is relevant). But, among the latter, atheism is defined by the complete lack of any ideology relating to magic, superstition or fear of supernatural beings who almost certainly do not exist. Everything that we can already explain can be explained without recourse to an imaginary creator (in fact, all the evidence is utterly against him, poor chap), and there is no reason at all to believe that stuff we still have to explain will need him either."

I note also your ignorant sideswipe at evolution, a concept arrived at after hundreds of years of honest hard work by scientists.

The life so short,
the craft so long to learn,
Th' assay so hard,
so sharp the conquering.

Get off your arse, pete, scrap the inane prejudices and do some honest study.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:03 AM

What I read in this thread (not in others that I did not bother to read at all) sounds quite passionate and even angry, frequently resorting to polemic rhetorics

Hmm. The suspicion of non sequitur there. You should remember that polemic rhetorics (sounds fierce!) can also be spawned by scorn, derision and belly laughter. You may rest assured that my blood pressure has never gone up by a single millimetre as a result of posting here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM

" ... as a result of that ideology their own religious position of there being no God leads to the sacrosanct belief in particles to people evolution ,despite lacking any observational evidence to support that belief."

Here we go again!

So where's the "observational evidence" for God then, pete?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:36 AM

Steve, I am by no means suggesting that your anger (in the form of aggressive scorn) is caused by Mudcat posts or by the splendour of religious revelations. I for one do not have an "agenda" of scaring anybody - why should I? If you have, it is your problem.

The point is, you do not appear like a cool guy who encounters ill-advised persons. Neither do Musket and Stringsinger. Abuses may be just a matter of manners, but refusing to apply the self-claimed rationality (as a punishment for stubbornness) is definitely not a good method of convincing anybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 08:55 AM

I put forward my viewpoints as clearly and simply as I can. That's what I aim to do. Convincing people of anything when I don't possess certainties is pretty low on my agenda. That's quite handy, really, because it absolves me from being diplomatic with idiots, which I've always regarded as being something of a waste of time. Well, I suppose I'd like to persuade one or two people to ditch their bogus certainties, if I'm pushed, but, frankly, I'm more likely to find a duff bottle of Hirondelle.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket being cool
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:04 AM

I'm a cool dude ok? Encountering ill advised persons, or people on English, is known as suffering fools gladly. As I haven't had to suffer anybody here, I post gladly. This isn't reality. Reality is debate, this is defending whatever absurdity we started with. Internet chat room debates cannot be anything else.

Abuse is just another way of saying "you are weird and to engage in serious debate with you makes me weird too, and that would never do." Far better to call someone a delusioned nutter to be honest. That's a luxury we don't often get in the real world. Too polite, see? I know some people who could easily form a band with pete, but I smile and change the subject rather than question their sanity.

On that subject... What the flying fuck is a non believer by carelessness? It would be careless to allow yourself to ge brainwashed by all that literal nonsense if you were anything other than an impressionable child or vulnerable adult. How fecking arrogant is that? Didn't your God tell you to be meek?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:08 AM

" as most are non believers by carelessness rather than conviction." Pete, I respectfully disagree. Most non believers are not careless but have arrived to the conclusion of non belief by many years of careful consideration.

Grishka, I take exception to your value judgement, "The point is, you do not appear like a cool guy who encounters ill-advised persons. Neither do Musket and Stringsinger."

A cool guy in my estimation can be one who refuses to take a position on anything and hides behind a self-righteous pseudo-objectivity creating "Ill-advised" persons.


Steve's anger might stem from a certain smugness that is evinced by those who are so assured of their position philosophically or intellectually.

In my own defense, I maintain the right to explore what others are saying to be true and be open to change if appropriate scientific evidence is presented. I don't consider religious people to be "ill-advised persons" but those who have been subjected to doctrinal beliefs without questioning them. As I have stated before, these people can be entirely rational and non delusional in other areas of their lives.

Grishka, a haughty attitude condemning an aggressive attitude is in itself a form of
aggressive expression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:11 AM

Very well, Steve, I take your word (though I will not put any money on it at the moment; I would have already lost some in Stringsinger's case). Being "diplomatic with idiots" is normally not required at Mudcat, but abusing them is not a good alternative. Just ignore what you want to ignore. You still owe me an explanation what you think I am scared of - the sole reason why I bring up the matter.

Note my main message of 16 Sep 13 - 06:05 AM, and Musket's subsequent approval.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:28 AM

"What the flying fuck is a non believer by carelessness?"

It isn't anything at all other than an artifact conjured up by pete's lack of control over the English lingo. or should i say english. There are many things pete doesn't get, however, and I suppose his rotten use of English is the least of his problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 09:41 AM

You still owe me an explanation what you think I am scared of

I don't really owe you anything, but, thing is, you appear to be scared of Dawkins, from whom you persistently distance yourself. Well, Dawkins dines out well on his writings and his atheism (I think he's excellent in both areas myself), I won't deny. But he is as straight as a die on God and religion. He expresses no certainties about the non-existence of God, unlike his religious opponents (who are scared stiff of him). He occupies very secure ground in that his demands, for evidence, are solid and simple and justified on any rational grounds I can think of. Nothing to be scared of or recoil from there. If Dawkins makes you nervous (join the pete 'n' Wacko club!), you need to question your own intellectual security in matters of faith. Question his tactics by all means, but even there he isn't so bad. I mean, anyone who can successfully get up the noses of bishops can't be all bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:29 AM

Stringsinger, I was describing my observations, nothing related to justice at all, let alone to aggression. Everybody must be his own judge about the soundness of his posts - I merely give hints when reacting to messages addressing me.

If you think I refuse taking a position myself - I took a clear position here several times, on the topic of your OP. Generally at Mudcat, I am more often accused of being too outspoken. There is nothing wrong with stating one's own opinion and criticizing others, stating whom exactly and for what exactly. The others must then be allowed to "plead not guilty".—
Steve's anger might stem from a certain smugness that is evinced by those who are so assured of their position philosophically or intellectually.
If this is so, succumbing to one's anger amounts to admitting defeat, particularly in the light of the accusation "they are just projecting their personal traumas". Steve seems to prefer the smug and scornful side himself.—

Steve, Dawkins does not pose any threat to my personal faith whatsoever, and if you find anything in my posts suggesting otherwise, tell us. ("You owe me" means that your accusation hitherto lacks corroboration.) Some of my concerns about and objections to Dawkins and his followers are specified above, you can read and criticize them if you are interested.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 10:52 AM

""There is nothing wrong with stating one's own opinion and criticizing others, stating whom exactly and for what exactly. The others must then be allowed to "plead not guilty".—""

Which is exactly what the initiator of all but one of these threads was doing to Atheists, except for the fact that he brooks NO contradiction, nor any dissent.

For him, Atheists are NOT allowed to enter a plea.

They are guilty because HE says they are!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 11:31 AM

Grishka. Try not to confuse "no issue" with approval. I have no issue with Sheffield United being a football team but don't for one minute expect me to acknowledge their ability to play football.

And still we have this "Dawkins and his followers" crap. If by that you mean people who don't need to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, he should stand for election because that describes the vast majority of the population.

Stop saying that atheism is a position. Ask someone who can speak English for crying out loud. The question you need to ask is "Why does it begin with a?" Whilst I could live with the idea that anybody aggressively against the concept of religion would be an atheist, they also may be ginger, collect stamps, own a dog or regularly use a huge dildo. It doesn't mean all dog owning ginger, self gratifying philatelists are atheists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 12:23 PM

OK, Musket, "no issue" suffices to make my point.

"Dawkins and his followers": a large label, but not quite as large as "atheist", sind D. wrote many books with more claims than just "God does not exist."

Although it is not the topic here, allow me to list some (of many) points why Dawkins is not at all "straigt as a die":
  • He adopts a notion of God from monotheist fundamentalists, often pretending it to represent all religion.
  • He refuses to take notice of any research into religiousness and religions, beyond the latter's verbal teachings taken as statements about the physical world.
  • In fact, in his most widely publicized statements (- I have not read everything -) he largely ignores all social sciences, philosophy, and history.
  • Instead, he bases his reputation on his past merits in a different field of research, much less related than he pretends; he "dines out".
  • He suggests (or suggested?) to his readers and listeners, presumably despite better knowledge, that evolution theory can be applied to human behaviour and social groups.
  • He fallaciously equals "intelligence" (or "sound judgment on all matters including religion") to "prominence in natural sciences".
  • He effectively equals his ideas on religion to results of natural sciences, being not proven but as likely as we can get - without supplying the sort of exact notions required in science.
  • Thus, he has his share of responsibility for those ubiquituous pseudo-Darwinisms, and possible truly militant clashes with other ideologies.
  • His propaganda may discredit genuine sciences.
  • His smug and taunting rhetorics are designed to further fuel the anger of some religious persons, actually preventing them from rethinking their theology.
  • Like many media personalities nowadays, he uses his talents as a comedian as if they provided real arguments.
This criticism is independent of the validity of any other concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:02 PM

All I get from your bullet point list is that you don't really like Richard Dawkins. Most of what's in your your list is opinionated and not supportable. I have neither the time nor energy to go through all your scattergun points, but just take this as an example:

He adopts a notion of God from monotheist fundamentalists, often pretending it to represent all religion

Of course he doesn't just construct a notion of God from "fundamentalists". The God Delusion targets belief in God in general, fundamentalist or not. He doesn't need to cover every single monotheistic and polytheistic belief system, as his main thrust is the point they all have in common, that there is no evidence for them. The flying spaghetti monster is just as plausible as God is. You seem to want nuance from him that is not called for. Good for him that he won't be bogged down by mischievous booby traps of that sort!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:05 PM

And cut out the entirely inappropriate "Steve's anger" crap. That kind of stuff just gets me angry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket laughing
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

If I were so scared of an Oxbridge Don, I'd first of all ask myself I were personally scared or whether I had been programmed to be so by the source of your bullet pointed nonsense.

Secondly, if religion has the answers, shallow adherents wouldn't need to react to rational criticism in the way rabid dogs foam at the mouth when he is mentioned.

Thirdly, I remain amused by how he is entering these debates. He doesn't speak for atheists because most atheists have never even heard of him, let alone be interested in his works.

I assume of course we are talking of the same distinguished eminent professor? I don't recognise the charges. They say more about the writer and their origin than they do about the scientist questioning why religion has to interfere with those who couldn't care a monkeys cunt about medieval superstition. The masses have other distractions now, and as can be seen, don't need it for a moral compass.

The less I care for religion, the less I feel like raping, pillaging and wreck less abandon. Yup, I seem to have a moral compass without the need for an imaginary friend. Maybe altruism is a feature of evolution after all!

Tambourines sell well on eBay if delusion ever leads to disillusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 02:23 PM

"Steve's anger": Stringsinger's topic, not mine.

Scared: no.

"Religion has the answers": not my claim, repeat: not my claim.

"He doesn't speak for atheists": exactly, that is why I speak of D. and his followers.

"Moral compass": a very complex topic indeed, hardly touched yet in this thread. What about a new one "Religion and ethics" - stuff that may well rival "mum" in extension.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 03:39 PM

perhaps steve would care to back up his assertions by telling us who the religious opponents are who are scared of dawkins.
on the other hand, I could name those whom he wont debate,- but of course he has other reasons ,or so he says!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 06:08 PM

pete, dear fellow, if the religious opponents of Dawkins weren't so shit-scared of him, they'd ignore him. Richard has that wonderful way of tickling believers' insecurities, and the point about those insecurities is that people of faith get terribly nervous when some militant atheistical thug comes along to innocently ask for evidence (I mean, how double-dog DARE they!). Odd, that! As for who he won't debate with, I think you'll find he has no fears on that front. He says there's no point debating with idiots, and I agree, and, from that perspective, as I'm addressing this to you, I would ask that you see this post as a piss-take and not a debating post, innit. Yeah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket noting
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 02:42 AM

pete. You've used the capital I again... your mask is slowly slipping.   Anyway, how do you know whether people use capitals in their minds when speaking in tongues?

Funny how this thread has degenerated to having to defend someone who frankly needs no defence by others and I am sure can defend himself far better than either my co Messiah or I can. If he doesn't join in the chimps tea party it is possible that he may not be a chimp. (Yes, the Darwinian irony was intended. )

Grishka. It isn't the complexity of ethics, rather the silly assertion that without religion you cannot have them. A number of people on these threads appear to think you need a combination of a preacher and an imaginary friend in order to have any moral compass.

Interesting aside. A church near us got a millennium fund grant to stop it falling down on condition it is used for hiring out for concerts and other community wide non religious purposes. A local folk band were booked for a concert and as their act includes explaining the origins of songs and tunes, they appealed to a fair sized audience. I went over, after all I was a member of a "doner" band and it was good to catch up with old mates.

Despite the terms of the grant, I was told the other day that the church committee has adopted a motion to ensure heathen anti church material isn't portrayed in the house of God in future. They played some Morris tunes and spoke of pagan origins of good harvest and fertility for crying out loud.

Delighted to hear one person resigned from the committee and has informed The Charities Commission.

You don't answer to anything higher than government legislation apparently. Have a nice day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 04:46 AM

The only reason why I describe my criticism of Dawkins here is that his name is mentioned in the OP. I agree that there are other dangers to society and intellectual integrity, many of them worse.

Tickling believers' insecurities: Tickling religious communities can have a healthy effect, if a genuine discussion arises. However, many will react by spitefully closing ranks, further inhibiting self-reflexion, and styling themselves as heroes or martyrs. Some ("militant") atheists may welcome this, hoping that it will then be even easier to expose religion and fight the Final Battle. This strategy is extremely risky, since the ideals of freedom and rationality are likely to be sacrificed in order to defend them. See the history of the "war on Islamic terrorism" for warning signals.

Moral compass: It is empirically evident that (self-declared) religious and non-religious people can do acts of altruism and commit crimes. Often all four combinations can be observed in the life of a single person. The question for reasons is extremely difficult, deeply rooted in human nature. Studying this is normally shunned by ideologists, since they feel it would weaken their position. Some of them resort to "divine grace", others to "enlightenment" etc., neither notion explaining anything.

Generally, intellectuals tend to overestimate the influence of verbal reflexion on humans, even on "highly intelligent" ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 06:09 AM

Wow. Final battle and all that. Using the word atheist in the same sentence is a bit like putting sweet old ladies who do the church flowers, suicide bombers, the Dalai Lama and buggering priests as all having the same aims.

Really?

If you want so called atheists off the backs of religions, they should try engaging with society more. Accepting equality as a reality would do for starters. Seeing religious equality as just that rather than religious privilege. Seeing their womenfolk as equal, stopping judging the sexual preferences of others, stop imposing social restrictions as a stipulation of membership.

In ky stride now.   Stop covering up paedophilia in the ranks, stop seeing women as chattel, stop circumcision of children, girls and boys, stop bombing abortion clinics, stop telling impressionable people to stop taking life saving drugs and pray instead. Stop telling the authorities you answer to a higher cause, stop having an aim of creating a theocracy. Stop throwing acid in the eyes of people with a different take on life to you.

After all, all religious people are religious. Some more militant than others eh?

Oh. And stop trying to teach children that medieval fantasy has equal billing with scientific reality. You can do that tomorrow. Those who claim to be religious but allow creationist views out in their name are just as guilty.

Right. Coffee, sort out the budget for the next quarter and go and shag a stoat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:50 AM

The trouble with having a "genuine discussion" is that such a thing would be acceptable to religion only when engaged in on its terms. The very word "atheist" immediately shifts us on to their territory. What price genuine discussion then? Religion doesn't want genuine discussion with people not of their faith, as has been abundantly proven down the years. Religion wants itself to be humanity's default. The upfront attacks on organised religions we see today, predicated as they are on rationality, not militancy, are healthy, long overdue, and should scare no-one of faith who enjoys genuine intellectual security therein. By fretting about "militant atheists" you simply betray that you don't have that security.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 08:13 AM

I see the usual collection of frauds, poseurs, yeggs, cake eaters and middle of the road liberals with a small "l" are at it again.

One would have thought that the clowns shaw, muskrat, wizzjet and the rest of the nomark buffoons on this site would have got fed up with inflicting their half baked crap on us by now.

But no!!!! here they come again, stumbling out of the dark with their thumbs stuck firmly up their bums, minds in nuetral and dribbling out of the side of their mouths, whilst mouthing this semi digested nonsense.

What really worries me is that these galloots have the vote...mind you they have plenty crayons to scrawl with..that is if they can be bothered .

C


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:56 AM

I would refer anyone interested to the original thread where the opening poster made no reference whatsoever to Dawkins. I have no idea why this thread was opened when a perfectly valid one was already on the boil. Apart from, maybe, someone wanted to start a more serious discussion than was on the previous without realising that there was no chance that this would ever happen.

It is nice to see cornered submitting his usual deep meaningful insights of course and this almost makes the new thread as nonsensical as the first :-) Apart from the fact that he is now repeating himself about crayons, yeggs and cake eaters he is a wonderful narrator. If you ignore the spellings. And the Grammar. And the fact he is a knobhead. He does make you realise that there is always someone worse.

Bollards! (The new Bollocks)

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket shagging a stoat
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:59 AM

Hang on, be with you in 5 secs, just starting.

Ok. Here now.

Well hello concerened! Nice to see you back. As you can see, I have other amusement now so you can kindly piss off and take your crayons with you.

Keep it up though. The insults were better when you were in love with me and just slagging off the others but never mind...

See? You can't have a discussion on this subject because the subject is false flag to begin with, as Steve said.

Ps. No room for my thumb, you have to store your crayons somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 11:10 AM

I concede that Steve is right. I was hoping for some enlightenment and I found it
mainly in Steve's and Blandiver's posts. I see how religion causes wars, how it works here on Mudcat which is a microcosm of what's happening in the world today.

The US is engaged in a religious war and the "god bless America's" ring hollow.

In the meantime, this thread has changed no one's mind and has made participants entrenched in their own views. I was hoping for better.

I see Franz de Waal's point and Richard Dawkin's point. I don't think waving a banner for "atheism" amounts to much because of the very ambiguity of the term.
I think that "Militant Atheism" is a false flag as well since it postulates a mythical
idea.

I remain open to the possibility that someone can scientifically prove that there is a god but so far there has been only prejudice, defensiveness and no evidence for the existence of any deity. This is also Dawkin's position and I find it rational.

I maintain that the original posting of "militant atheism has become a religion" is an attack on non-believers. It was a dogmatic assertion that has had very little real value in a rational discussion on this thread. I regret this because this is an issue that is not going away. Attacks on non-believers has become institutionalized by some branches of all the major religions and instead of deploring this, there has been silence from most religious communities to stop them from happening.

There are some outspoken religious reps who do, such as Chris Hedges, formerly of the New York Times. Pope Francis has shown acceptance of non-belief also.
But they are rare. Mostly it is those who are outside of the religious net who call attention to the persecution of non-believers such as Aayan Hirsi Ali, Salmon Rushdie, Susan Jacobi and other rational thinkers.

Most of the time, attacks on non-believers are ignored or dismissed as "crap"
and the major religions are enablers to isolate and persecute.

There is a war on ideas, here, that is prevalent throughout the world and it's
resolution will be when the smart-assed remarks, vindictive assertions, dismissal of this issue, ridicule, and stubborn clinging to delusional and out-moded ideas subside.

There is nothing wrong essentially with anyone having a "faith" or delusion but unfortunately, when it comes down to how it's applied through actions, "the devil is in the details". (Pun intended).


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 12:30 PM

we are , of course going over the same old stuff that we debated [or in some cases, throw abuse around] as in past posts.
this does include what you say ,stringsinger also, albeit minus the foulmouthing of some.
for example providing proof of the existence of God has been often discussed, and it has been generally conceded that "proof" is not available in general. what the discussion really hinges on is where the preponderance of the evidence lies.
the traditional argument has ,I think, revolved around cause and effect, ie that everything THAT HAS A BEGINNING must have sufficient cause, and that the coming into being of natural things must have a supernatural cause greater than the things bought into being.
this is IMO seen most acutely in the creation/evolution debate.
What has atheism to offer to account for first things and first life ? - notwithstanding the unfounded assertion of steve that science is closing in on the problem. should the existence of a creator God be dismissed, unless it be a matter of philosophical objection.
as far as dawkins is concerned ,it seems that he refuses to debate creationists lest he lend creationism respectability, while there is plenty of footage where he does tackle creationists that don't have the academic achievement to debate him more effectively.
having said that, he wont debate w.l craig either, and he is not a YEC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 12:54 PM

Did you get the extra strong sellotape I sent, Messiah M?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 03:18 PM

Hey!!!!, youse guys really slay me!!! I did have have some hopes for yer man muskrat..but no!! he has joined the rest of you balloons by starting to take me seriously..come on babe ..you was a lot a better when you tried to be patronisingly cynical..

Pete from seven stars link..congratulations!! you have won first prize for the biggest piece of unadulterated crap to ever have appeared on this thread

as for gnomeyo.. really!! come on!! I think did even you could do better than "bollards" and " knobhead".. oh! by the way , when you talk about someone being worse.. I did take the liberty of adding " than yourself"?

Take a good look at yourself wont you?..Comments about a persons spelling and grammar do not make you big nor does it make you clever...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket gettin
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 04:20 PM

Sellotape was fine thanks though the passage of time means less required these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:15 PM

Comments about a persons spelling and grammar do not make you big nor does it make you clever...

Does the handle 'Gnome' not give you any indication any phrase about 'big' is pretty much wasted? Rather like you I guess, Conc me owd lad. As for clever. Well, probably not, but far more original than crayons, thumbs up yer bums and cake eaters don't you think? Those are getting rather tedious I'm afraid. 'Than yourself' was implied so I guess you get some marks for spotting the bleedin' obvious but then I had to take them away again for assuming that anyone at all would take you seriously. Sorry, but if you really want that scripture writing position you do need to start to think a bit more laterally.

Bolleaux

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 05:43 PM

"What has atheism to offer to account for first things and first life ? "

Pete, the emphasis on science and cosmology is explained in detail by those who
are not of the religious persuasion necessarily. The only thing I can tell you about
"atheism" is that is supports the scientific method which has answers for first things and first life. I refer you to Neil deGrasse Tyson for a concise explanation.

"as far as dawkins is concerned ,it seems that he refuses to debate creationists"

Actually in the past, he has debated creationists. I think he doesn't do it now because the arguments for it are always the same cookie cutter rejoinders. There is no scientific
evidence for creationism since it is based on the bible. How can anyone argue realistically about something that is mythological and unscientific?

Pete, this "has a beginning" is called in logical circles the "Cosmological Argument". The natural followup on this statement is as follows: There must be something that made the "First Cause". In short, what created a god? Something must have caused a "First Cause". I advocate that humans created the notion of a god.    Science is now investigating the "Big Bang" theory and that there may have been quantum organisms
in the "nothingness" that started the advent of physical matter. We don't know all the details as of yet but there is a lot of scientific information that bears scrutiny.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM

I remain open to the possibility that someone can scientifically prove that there is a god but so far there has been only prejudice, defensiveness and no evidence for the existence of any deity. This is also Dawkin's position and I find it rational.

That is absolutely right. I could add, cynically, that the possibility is exceptionally remote, but the fact that I accept the possibility at all places me, on the rational level, high above those people of faith who are so steeped in their unjustifiable certainties.

As for fingers/thumbs up own bums, concerened, I think you may be mistaking us for Catholic priests, whose fingers are generally up someone else's bum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket living the dream
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 02:22 AM

Musket taking you seriously? I don't take the Ian writing my crap seriously so don't start getting ideas above your station. Interesting that DtheG pointed out the clue in the name as to physical attributes. Does that make Musket a big bore or endowed with a long shaft? As I had the nickname from an early age, I wouldn't know. ..

Hang on, we can ask the stoat. Oh. Perhaps God can put him back together again.

Deep and meaningful discussions on the likelihood of a sentient force behind the laws of physics can go stuff themselves. I'm onto more materialist notions today. Collecting my new car later and I am shallow and impressionable enough to be getting excited. Too excited in fact to discuss irrelevant fantasy eh?

Pip Pip


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 05:31 AM

Bring it on you oafs!!!! all you are doing is justifying my belief that you are a collective of stumble-bums and arrogant pseudo academics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 06:20 AM

Bring what on, Conc? Do you really think that you are indulging in genuine debate by any chance? That level of delusion will get you far my friend. Ever thought of taking the cloth? All you need is a firm belief in fantasy and a penchant for strong drink and choir boys. I suspect you have the makings of an arch-bishop at least.

Gateaux!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 06:46 AM

" ...for example providing proof of the existence of God has been often discussed, and it has been generally conceded that "proof" is not available in general."

Well, yes. That's it in a nutshell, pete. You and your fellow Creationists can't prove that there is a God - so why should I, or anyone else, believe in Him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 08:33 AM

I aint your friend gnomeyo..nor am I a friend to any fraud, con man, self promoter,ginger liberal, gateaux eating galloot, telegraph reading mockers and all their Tory or neo Tory ilk.

Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate.. a hell of a lot of people get a lot of spiritual comfort from believing in religion.

I have a lot of friends of the cloth, they are not heavy drinkers or molesters of small boys, they like all their clerical friends would take massive objection to your unthinking, unsubstantiated and crass statements

You lot, and you in particular gmomo, think mocking peoples beliefs is smart, when really it shows you up for the shallow clowns you really are.

So, gnometic, why don't you engage what passes for your mind into gear before you take people like me on.. you really are not in my league.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:16 AM

Not in your league? How would we know, as you've never actually made a point in any debate? Dave, dunno about his taking the cloth. Most of the time he sounds like he's touching it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:18 AM

Nah, sorry Conc, still not getting it. Is it supposed to be an insult or something? If so, it doesn't really work I'm afraid. May help if it made some sort of sense but that is something we can work on together. What you need to do is keep up with the nonsensical statements but improve the presentation so the gullible may start to believe. If you could include it in a story, something like 'on the sixth day God made man', it could catch on. Until then it is still a fail. Sorry :-(

BTW - Good to see I am getting to your religious pals. I didn't realise so many people read my posts. How many other friends do you have? Any Welsh sheep-shaggers or French surrender-monkeys?

Rowlocks

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM

BTW - Anyone spot the irony?

nor am I a friend to any fraud, con man etc.

closely followed by

I have a lot of friends of the cloth

I absolutely love it. You couldn't make this stuff up. Oh, hang on, someone just did. Mmmmmm.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 10:49 AM

"Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate.. a hell of a lot of people get a lot of spiritual comfort from believing in religion."

Yes, they do. But these people are not compassionate when it comes to dealing with those who don't believe in their special religion. Mocking people personally and mocking their belief systems are two different things. I'm not big on mocking much but I certainly see the hypocrisy that so many religious people have in taking offense
when it's their religion that's being questioned and giving offense when they attack
non-believers and scorn them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerenrd
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:07 PM

stringsinger..your point is?

gnomeio.. your return is up to your usual level of crassness.. you really don't get it do you?

shaw...really???!! come on!!!

This is really to easy..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 04:24 PM

Concerened: My point is that you can't expect non-believers to act respectfully to religious people about their religion when non-believers are being persecuted by them for their non-beliefs.

It's a two-way street. If religious people want respect for their religion, they have to show by their behavior that they are worthy of it.

I kinda' like this Pope Francis because he says that non-believers are O.K. if they are good people. In other words, you don't have to believe in god to be good. This is a radical idea among religious believers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 04:17 PM

Yes, OK, Conc me old pal. I know it is hard to believe at the moment but believe me, when you have grown up, you will realise that I have helped you immensely. You may think that you know where it is at (man) but you don't. It isn't there at all. It is somewhere else.

Cycle locks.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM

""Because you do not believe in something, small minded person gnomet, you do not have to mock it...be a little compassionate..""

Priceless comment from the least compassionate poster ever on this forum, who posts solely and specifically to mock. To call this one small minded would be an undeserved compliment.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 06:14 PM

as you infer, conc, that you should,nt be taken seriously, I shall take your words to me in the same spirit!

quantum....stringsinger?.heavy stuff. I hear that no-one really understands it. all I know about it is that particles[?] inside atoms appear to be alternately visible and then invisible.
assuming I am sort of right in that ,I would suppose that some atheists assume that something was preceded by absolutely nothing making a quantum jump.....just thinking out print.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM

Never assume anything, pete. Especially that you ase right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM

Pete, from what I hear on TV and blogs, Neil deGrasse Tyson and others have questioned whether what we think of as "nothing" is really void of everything that is capable of growing into something. I really don't know too much as to what I'm talking about but I'm picking up on an idea that has been described. What is the nature of "nothing"?

The philosophical problem is that if a god were the First Cause, then would it not be fair to postulate that something else caused the First Cause making it the Second Cause? That's the Cosmological Argument as I understand it.

Quantum mechanics also seems to take issue with the Teleological Argument that somehow everything was made perfect by a god, the basis of the book "The Blind Watchmaker" by Dawkins which assumes that using the analogy of the air liner, some one idea made that perfection happen. It of course was man made and some would argue that it wasn't perfect. There are flies in the Evolutionary ointment as well with such creatures as the lungfish, who was a transition from amphibian to terrestrial life, a complete "flop" as it were being neither good at sea or on land.

When the so-called perfection of a bacteria was used as evidence to suggest that a god made it because it was so self-contained, it was revealed that it had antecedents that were less so and were a part of its development, in the Kitzmiller vrs. Dover, Pennsylvania case defending "creationism". There was a dramatic moment in which the "perfection" of this bacteria, which was said to be self-contained in its perfection was shown to be a part of an evolutionary process disclosed by a number of scientific books dumped on the table of the creationist lawyers. Hence, perfection was relative.

The so-called grand design has peculiarities which could be called flaws if it were done by a supreme engineer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 01:52 AM

My dear pete. The only quantum jump is expressed in the mental leap that a 2000 year old and older set of stories forms the basis of whatever sentient force you may wish for. I reckon if we were to notice design, it would be more likely now in the age of fairly radical technology than when superstition filled the gaps in knowledge.

Ok. That was a far more serious answer than I intended. I'll stick to concernered or however he spells it. Seems he owns a tambourine after all. Some of his best friends are of the cloth? Well, funnily enough one or two of mine are, including a brother in law back at college at an advanced age to become a vicar. I respect his need to do good works in a community and accept that the dog collar opens doors to help the needy. Society is still set up to put vicars on pedestals.

I also respect that it wasn't the professionals in the Synod that wished to perpetuate inequality, it was the laity.

But still, CofE is in the same boat as any other cult. It is all about controlling your members and swelling the ranks. No matter how much you have a pint with a vicar mate, you remind yourself of the things they say from the pulpit each and every week and your respect for the professional is different to your respect for the mate.

Bugger. Done it again. Tried giving a serious answer.

Oh well.

Here concerned! You realise that once your balls drop and you start growing hairs everywhere your friends of the cloth will drop you both from the choir and the bed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,concerened
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 07:29 AM

Hey wizzjet!!! gnomet, stringsnapper and the rest of you half educated gullible,latchicos.. you really don't need me to point out your crassness and stupidity..you are more than capable of doing that yourself.

Stringbreaker.. define good.

Gnomet..is that the best you can do?

You are wrong there wizzget..I don't post just to mock..mind you that can be fun.

Look on it as rather a little education for yourselves in how to cast and fly and watch you shoal of sados fight each other to jump on the bait...never fails!!

Here yourself muskcrap!!.. the balls and hair is a great idea.. some of your more brighter playmates have pointed out I am the wrong gender..DuuuuuuuuuuuuuuH You might have realized that a long time ago instead of all your pseudo intellectual posturing... again I have proved to much for you...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 10:43 AM

You are so funny, Conc dear. I love it. I can do far better thanks and probably have already. I know the difference between here and hear anyway. You know, if you keep chatting to the grown ups a bit of intelligence may well rub off on you but that may be your downfall if you want the scripture job. Just remember that some of the people outside your institution will not be as nice to you as we are.

Out of interest though, do you think your friends of the cloth are not con men themselves? Does the fact that they try to sell something that does not exist not sort of tar them as con men of the worse kind? Do you believe what they tell you? If so, I happen to have a friend who passed away in Nigeria leaving no heirs and to get at his fortune I could do with your bank details...

Bull Ox.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket wondering?
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

So.. Is it a girly after all? We need someone to make the teas after holy bingo...

I should make an effort to know the difference. I go to Thailand in a weeks time. Harder to tell the difference there, although the Adams Apple usually gives the game away.

Dave. This Nigerian. Do you think they could make a will based donation to the new one true religion?

Tell them to tick the gift aid box if they can.

In honour of your gnomish tradition, I say to you

Kerrymuir Durham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 12:59 PM

"all I know about it is that particles[?] inside atoms appear to be alternately visible and then invisible.
assuming I am sort of right in that ,I would suppose that some atheists assume that something was preceded by absolutely nothing making a quantum jump ..."

Hey, pete! I thought you were comfortable with the concept of ineffability? ... Or was it unintelligibility?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:19 PM

I was asked to define good. Well, what it isn't is those who claim that it's god. The history of religion is enough evidence to support this claim.

Inside the human brain, there exists the potential for survival which is actually doing
less harm and more helpful actions to others. "Good" is the realization that how you treat others is important and the better you treat people around you, the better chance our species has for survival. Stopping wars would be a good first step to achieving a kind of "good" for humanity. The antonym, of course, is "bad" which can be defined as the actions of those who look out for themselves at the expense of other's needs.

Franz de Waal in his book, "The Age of Empathy" suggests that because of his scientific study of primate behavior, working together to build common interests, being empathetic and sympathetic to others is possibly built into our DNA. That's one meaningful definition of good.

This is not a requirement for most religions. If it were, you'd have more enlightened behavior from religious people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars links
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 03:32 PM

stringsinger- I did quick search on Tyson, but theres a lot to wade through.one I did look at called "why evolution is true" was actually a commentary on someone called "albert" being disinvited by Tyson after he blasted krass' new book which apparently purported to establish the validity of the something from nothing idea.
I,m too tied up at present to post anymore.   pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 04:10 PM

I am pretty sure it can't be a girly Messiah M. I have never met a woman so, how can I put this, errrrm, special. Yes, that will do. Don't get me wrong, I am sure that they exist and I would hate anyone to say that a woman cannot be as stupid special as a man should she so choose. But we do need to look at the evidence.

BTW - Went to the Hitching Stone on the Yorks/Lancs border today. Another spectacular view of the Holy Mountain.

Lox.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 05:58 PM

stringsinger- I did quick search on Tyson, but theres a lot to wade through.one I did look at called "why evolution is true" was actually a commentary on someone called "albert" being disinvited by Tyson after he blasted krass' new book which apparently purported to establish the validity of the something from nothing idea.

Can anyone here tell me if this means anything??

I,m too tied up at present to post anymore.   pete.

Oooo, kinky!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 13 - 06:06 PM

Conkerened may actually be a new gender, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it. Bollocks and fanny rolled into one, quite likely with a good covering of droopy man-chesticles and all finished with the finest Brazilian. What I do know is that conkers has never actually made a single debating point. He, she or it is very good at colourfully delivering insults (very amusing, actually, and I've archived one or two in case Wacko decides to make a concerted return). The world with him is richer than one without him. Her. It.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 01:10 AM

If Stringsinger keeps mentioning Wacko's hero de Waal, your wish may come true.

Here's a tangent for those taking the thread seriously. As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect, does that make those who do wicked things in support of their religion atheists?

After all, on the wireless last night an Immam was disowning those who attacked churches in Pakistan. The Archbishop of Canterbury recently called abortion clinic terrorists in Dumbfuckistan evil.

I take it religious terrorists are atheists then? No wonder loony God botherers use atheist as an insult. They include those who take their own cult too seriously. You can reach world domination by proselytising or by wiping out the competition eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM

As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect, that makes those who do wicked things in support of their religion....assholes.

Next question?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM

When I posted that I wondered if Joe might wade in. I have in the past questioned those like Joe who see the good in their faith as to why they carry on giving respectability by association to those who see religion as a tool rather than an ethos.

Keep fighting Joe, but to be honest, the race to irrelevance in the eyes of others is being won by the "assholes." Me? I'd use more colourful language to describe them but hey ho.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 08:22 AM

As all the mainstream religions claim to promote love and respect...

Is that true? I don't see any evidence of it - certainly not in 6,000 years of the Abrahamic Tradition in which Man creates God in his very worst possible own image then goes ahead and imitates him :   

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." — Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion)

*

Love & Respect are human qualities adopted & perverted by religion into something quite evidently meaningless. In real life they exist on a very personal / familial level, they keep things in the balance within the community, however so perilously. But things is mostly good. Religion is made up by misfits and misanthropic outsiders who have failed to fit in to this. It is born of envy and deep seated resentment of misanthropic fuckwits (Old Testament Prophets, Saint Paul et al) who want to pour down Judgement on Humanity for simply Having Fun, because they don't know how to. The Bible is nothing but a relentless catalogue of psychotic misery written, and perpetuated, by a bunch of sad lonely kill joys. They made God in their image - but God died at some point when the concept proved incompatible with the emergent reality that things ain't so bad after all & people stopped going to church because they had better stuff to do.   

In this Post-Religious age, no one knows this more than those who claim to believe. Religion now exists as a sort of Heritage Industry-cum-Revival Folklore. On that level it's not without interest - things like the Thurible at the cathedral at Santiago de Compostella, or the doorway of same (which I've only seen in plaster cast at the V&A) inspire a certain Fortean fascination - but to think that the innocent & wondrous minds of children are still being messed up with the notion that this demonic medieval Idiot God is somehow real (and that he loves them so much he'll send them to hell if they don't do as he says) is one of the more depressing realities of life in the early 21st Century.

Anyhoo - here's a song to cheer the hearts of Militant Atheists everywhere. Remember, we are only Militant because we love the Light of Common Human Reality and want everyone to share in it as is our common right & privilege. Religion exists solely to deny that right, and that reality; as long as it does so then Atheism, and Atheists, will remain Militant.

Linton Kwesi Johnson - Reality Poem


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

" "My transition from the taken-for-granted God as the creator of the universe to a more agnostic position came through Rastafari. I must say it was quite an attractive religion in terms of its ideas. It was against the domination of whites over blacks. It was against colonialism. It was for Africa. It was for rejecting a lot of the materialist values associated with capitalist civilisation. And it had a spiritual dimension that saw God and godliness as some kind of spiritual force with which all human beings were imbued.

But although I identified with these values I couldn't identify with the idea – this might sound arrogant – but I couldn't identify with the idea that Haille Selassie was God. He was just a human being like everybody else." "
       So your really an agnostic Bdiver.Sounds like he believes in a Source/God just not the one the unenlightened teachers tried to give him.C


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 11:24 AM

The other day I had just opened this thread, in order to relish the usual mayhem that tends to occur on these sorts of threads, when there came a knock on the door. I answered said door and was confronted by two ladies representing the Jehovah's Witnesses - a Christian cult of which I know little and don't wish to know more. The next day, whilst walking through my local town centre, I was accosted by an earnest young American gentleman, from the State of Utah, and representing yet another Christian cult called - yes, you've guessed it - the Mormons. Both sets of cultists urged me to read the Bible - whilst the latter also wished me to read another work of fiction called 'The Book of Mormon'.

Is this all just a coincidence or is somebody "up there" trying to tell me something? Perhaps I would benefit from reading the Bible?

On the other hand, the laws of probability say that coincidences are actually quite common because random events often lead to the formation of clusters. Still, God, if you're reading this, please forgive my impertinence ... but then you did create the laws of probability - along with everything else. Are you just trying to confuse me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:15 AM

You see Shimrod, what really happens is that pete, Jerk the Sea Cadet, Ron Davis etc get together and pray for the rest of us to be blighted by annoying God botherers.

Not much point in us trying to do it back to them either. Their God claims to have invented everything including us, yet he only listens to those with a space in their brain for him to fill.

It's a tough life but what can you do?



Les Barker's wonderful song "Jehova's Witness at the Door" is worth a giggle if you feel the need.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:06 AM

So your really an agnostic Bdiver.

Balls.

The Spirituality of humanity is common to each & every one of us. It precedes all notions of God and Religion and exists quite independently of them as simply part / parcel of our humanity : our capacity for love, joy, sorrow, heartbreak, compassion, empathy, beauty, art, music, great works, small works, great food, fast food, beer, pop, pies and cake that make it all worthwhile. It's there in our sense of mystery and wonder; crop circles, UFOs, Stonehenge, Inca Roads, pylons, power stations, saxophones, VCS3s, butter & cheese & all. I dare say it's there in our deepest, darkest fears, even our despair that gives rise to our hopes and dreams. We might weep at music, mountains, sunsets, or those stories that truly inspire us. We all feel it equally, just for different things - the only consensus is diversity.

God and godliness are entirely human concepts; we made it up, every last word of it. Just names, ideas, mutable, different for everyone. Because of that - all of that - the whole 50,000 year totality of human experience on Planet Earth of which I am just one tiny though hardly insignificant part (we each of us are the perceptive centres of our own universe : it begins when we are born & it ends when we die) - not only can we say there is no God, but we can also rejoice in that fact. All there is is the truth of being human. The culture. The residues.

Once upon a time people believed in God; once upon a time people died from UTIs. Get over it. No God. No heaven. No hell. No great loss. The human adventure has barely begun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:36 AM

Based on the lifetime numbers of eggs and sperms that your parents produced, the chances of the particular ones that turned into you getting together were 250,000,000,000,000,000 to one. One stray flick of the sperm's flagellum over a nanosecond sending him off-course and it would have been somebody else, not you. For that, you get all those decades of life on Earth. I mean, how good is that! You're a winner! So stop wanting even more, afterlifes an' all that! You've had billions of times more than your share already! Make the most of what you have (and you'll find that easier if you get off your knees!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:02 AM

Yeah. My brother has worked most of his life in 3rd world aid. His view is simple.

Live in the Western World? Think you have issues? Well think on this. You have won the lottery. Congratulations.

I suppose the jam tomorrow aspect of religion is pandering to greed and keeps the inbuilt spoilt brat in us happy. That's why I shake my head over the concept. I can see the garden is beautiful without having to thank the fairies at the bottom of it.

And so can anyone else if the brainwashing either fails or wasn't there in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:04 AM

Not sure, Messiah S. Working on the basis that nothing ever starts or finishes, just changes state, I think there may be an afterlife. We may not be aware of it but when we shuffle off this mortal coil we do become something else. My theory is that most of us will become glitches on the internet and will pop up every now again as stupid posts on various forums...

Bald Ox

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:08 AM

As Ricky Gervais said, that because Atheists don't believe in an afterlife, they have everything LIVE for and nothing to DIE for. As for my molecules - I've shed countless billions of the things over the last 52 years which are still out there somewhere (matter can't be created or destroyed) but I'm not aware of a single one of them.

After life, after shave, don't hold with any of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:53 AM

I'm coming back as a slug so that I can eat Wacko's lettuces.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM

Im coming back as Wacko so I can fertilise my lettuces with my own bullshit.

If we come back as gnomes there appears to be a commune of the buggers in my neigjbour's garden. If Einstein is contemplating, the fishing rod makes an ideal prop.

I'd like to come back 30 years ago as Kate Bush's loofah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:27 PM

"It seems easy, too easy in fact to elevate his stance to that of providing an alternative to religion. I have read some of his books and nowhere did I see evidence for this. As he is a scientist I reckon if he had such a mission, he would give clear evidence to promote it. "

Musket

Indeed he does promote alternatives to religion. He has a foundation and a mission statement.

May I point out sir that there are logical limitations to using your own lack of knowledge as a point of evidence in an argument. Just because you don't know it does not make it not so.


Our Mission

Our mission is to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and human suffering.

The Richard Dawkins Foundation (US)


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 02:45 PM

of course that's overcoming all intolerance - except his own!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:22 PM

"If Stringsinger keeps mentioning Wacko's hero de Waal, your wish may come true."

Well you know, de Waal is a non-believer. His books are worth reading.

"of course that's overcoming all intolerance - except his own!

Pete, he isn't intolerant like the fundamentalist Christians are. He is actually pretty open minded and has religious friends. I join him in intolerance for destructive attitudes on the part of some Christians and other religious persuasions when they proclaim how right they are and everyone else is wrong. This is the problem with an absolutist ideology whether religious or otherwise. Dawkins has stated time and again if someone could show him scientific evidence for the existence of a god, he would agree. But, Pete, no one has been able thus far to do so.

Blandiver, you are again hitting the nail on the head. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I personally think it's important to understand how and why people have religious ideas.
I have read Gerald Heard, St. Francis of Asissi, some of Thomas Aquinas, most of the bible, the bhagavad gita, and omnivorous amounts of religious matter. I'm no theological authority but I've been exposed to enough of it to know that it is irrelevant to my life personally although I've found all of it interesting. One interesting feature of Dawkins is his interviews with religious people, listening to them, and inevitably commenting on them.
Most non-believers are humanists with interest in how people think whether they agree with the people or not. I share those interests.

I will have a problem with terms like "your holiness" or anything that makes as the Quakers say "Undue distinction between mankind".

In this sense, I don't consider myself at all militant but like so many of you, I am a searcher but I put my reason before any "faith". Religious people have things to teach me about behavior and attitudes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:15 PM

The Church of the Naivety is indeed a broad church. ...

A word to the wise. Don't go telling pete "he isn't intolerant like the fundamental Christians. " pete does have to live with himself you know. ...

Ok. Our nautical friend has found a loose Chink in what he thinks is the armour of his straw man. I shall attempt to humour him although I doubt he will see any humour.

Overcoming intolerance and fundamentalism sounds good to me. I doubt it amounts to being a religion though. For that you need an imaginary friend to be grateful to and vulnerable children and adults to teach it to.

No. I admire his crusade. Advancing scientific discovery and throwing scorn on those who seek to control others. .. yeah. I fail to see how that is wrong on an intellectual level.

Oh... wrong level. Wrong sailor. Bugger.




Stringsinger. I know de Waal doesn't own a tambourine. I've known it for some time but let Jerk the Sea cadet think he is so bloody clever and original in his posts. Jerk started the original thread quoting de Waal in order to provoke an opportunity to discredit Dawkins in the way his church tells it's members to.

He just assumed nobody would notice his deniability of the de Waal article by saying it doesn't represent his own views.

Quite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:35 PM

you might perhaps not be surprised, stringsinger, that I think evolutionism is an absolutist position. I know it has many denominations [neo Darwin,punctuated equilibrium,multiverse etc] but the overall paradigm is sacrosanct.
dawkins is IMO not likely to accept evidence for the existence of God , but conversely he has been unable to present evidence for evolutionism. when asked for an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome, he was stumped. the eventual answer given hardly addressed the question.
I should have thought this was pretty fundamental to Darwinism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:59 PM

The trouble is pete, that you think we're all so bloody stupid that we'll forget that you've chundered out this tripe before. You do not understand what evidence is, you don't know what a mutation is, you don't know what a genome is, you don't have the faintest idea of what "increasing information in the genome" means, and you wouldn't have the foggiest idea of how to interpret anything a tenth as complicated as Richard Dawkins answering a question about science (because you don't know what science is). Your "opinions" are nothing more than the vile regurgitations of some moron or other on some silly website you lean on like a cripple on crutches. You are serially dishonest with us, and, lamentably, you're utterly dishonest with yourself. And you're incredibly lazy to boot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:11 PM

Mr. Shaw, if your scientific knowledge is superior to pete's you have yet to demonstrate that with your words. Using scientific theories as dogma does nothing to advance science or your credibility.

Please note that I am not saying that pete is right or even that he is making sense. I am saying that he is making about the same amout of sense that you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:17 PM

"No. I admire his crusade. Advancing scientific discovery and throwing scorn on those who seek to control others. .. yeah. I fail to see how that is wrong on an intellectual level."

The point I made had nothing to do with whether you admire it or not. In fact until I posted that mission statement , you did not know it existed. But you still had the nerve to say that some other person was wrong based on your ignorance.

I don't learn much in discussions with deliberately ignorant people. I guess I get some experience in dealing with deliberately ignorant people. Not much else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM

Dearie me, Wacko, you've really lost it this time. You have used the terms "pete" and "scientific knowledge" in the same sentence. However, I must say how good it is to see you back. I can hardly wait for your next obscure and infantile contribution, though I fear I have to be abed presently. Do continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:02 AM

The nerve, as you put it, is the assumption I hadn't noticed the mission / vision of the foundation Dawkins started. Funnily enough some of us are capable of reading and in my case capable of being curious.

Belonging as such runs counter to my disdain of pseudo society clubs in general and in that sense, his foundation has at least one thing in common with religions. But there again so do stamp collecting clubs so don't get excited.

If you don't learn much in discussions, that will explain how your ignorance manages to come over loud and clear ly confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:46 AM

This is all getting far to serious again. Where is our good friend Conc. I miss him. Her. It.

Door locks.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket being serious
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:57 AM

This IS getting serious. On another thread, one of the serious ones here is trying to impose rules on what you can post and how often.

I propose our new true religion has a troll chapter? We can be a broad church that allows religious zealots and associated bigots to join us, in our laity section, and especially in the troll chapter.

They can have weekly meetings where they complain to each other how rational people laugh at them when they take their god out of their head and try to apply it to hard wired morality and altruism. They can lay bets on the date and time their bloke invented things, both new and already extinct. I reckon they'd be happy. We could have a rule that they have to be taken seriously to their faces to stop them whinging. Tell you what, even tell them this is a form of equality but at the same time have them think it is a form of privilege, just like religious people do now.

They do need to be guarded though. How many gnome guards can you muster?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM

" I know it has many denominations [neo Darwin,punctuated equilibrium,multiverse etc]"

You know nowt about science or evolution Pete. How can "multiverse" be a denomination of "evolutionism"? Explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:33 AM

Well, there is all them mates of mine in your neighbours garden. Multiply that by the number of gardens that may contain Gnomes and I think you will see there are a fair few of us. Proven scientific fact that is!

Didn't like that Broadchurch much. Thought he was better in Doctor Who.

Have you seen the thread on 'What religion is God?' Maybe you could put them out of their misery?

BTW - If I have been reborn a Gnome, what was I before? Could I have been a Troll or is that what I must aspire too? How many other mythical characters must I be reborn as before I can join the mythical being in the mythical Nirvana?

Thingies.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 06:16 PM

well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me, but I reckon I,m on pretty safe ground in my estimation of multiverse as being unobservable and untestable [same goes for origins science in general] and is therefore a faith position. the use of the word "denomination" is analogous rather than actual.
I had previously given a dictionary definition of religion, which covered atheism/evolutionism, hence the gentle jibe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 07:49 PM

well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me

I have a pet slug who knows a million times more about science than you do.

but I reckon I,m on pretty safe ground in my estimation of multiverse as being unobservable and untestable

Well now, most scientists on the planet regard the multiverse hypothesis as nothing more than just that. But pete, you hypocrite you, you can ignorantly pontificate about this whilst at the same time prattling on about your God, who is a million times more unobservable and untestable than any multiverse notion.

I had previously given a dictionary definition of religion, which covered atheism/evolutionism, hence the gentle jibe

Oh, "had" you really? Where is it then? And what dictionary, pray tell, included a mention of "evolutionism" in its "definition of religion"? Do try to curb the stupid lies, old chap.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:26 AM

"I have a pet slug who knows a million times more about science than you do. "

Another scientific statement form our humble defender of science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 01:06 AM

Go on then Jack. Prove otherwise.

It is perfectly possible that Steve has a pet slug. Its mental capacity and thought process has the starting gun of a brain area of sorts, altruism towards slug communities and the ability to shout "Big Issue! " at passing snails.

Use of metaphor is a human trait. Not confined to biblical stories.

That's a fiver you owe me Co Messiah S.

Just a note on the multiverse hypothesis. That is a scenario that would explain certain phenomena that puzzle us. The key point being it is a proposed answer to a question that came first. Creationism is an answer that never begged a rational question.

Sorry oh Gnomish one. I reckon that answer was too serious. No matter. If I rip the piss a bit, pete will ignore it and Seaman Stains will shake his head and tell me I am not being serious. Gosh I never noticed. ..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:05 AM

You still don't get it about science, do you, pete?

Some scientists may display the human failing of dogmatism but science, as a whole is not dogmatic. Scientific models are always, and necessarily incomplete. On-going research, into the various fields of science, lead to new models and new perspectives on old models all the time. In scientific terms there is no such thing as absolute truth.

You, and your fellow religious cultists, on the other hand, fervently believe (poor deluded fools that you are) that you are in possession of the absolute truth. And you also believe that this absolute truth is contained in an old book of dubious origins.

The Jehova's Witnesses who visited me the other day left me a booklet on Creationism vs Evolution. This booklet resorts to the same logical fallacy that you use all the time i.e. the authors purport to have found inconsistencies in current models of Evolution, "therefore", they triumphantly proclaim, science must be wrong and Biblical accounts of Creation must be true! That is stupid, illogical nonsense!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:56 AM

"well stu, you may know massive amounts more about science than me"

Whether I do or not is irrelevant; what is important is understanding what science is and how it works, and you don't need to be a scientist to know that. You do have to get off your arse do some work though to familiarise yourself with the philosophies and methodologies that make 'science' what it is, and explains how it's come to be practiced as it is and how it changes with time.

I feel I can discuss religion as I was raised as CoE, also attended Methodist and finally a rather excellent free church, from being a bab up to my teenage years. I read the New Testament in my 20s and still retain a vague interest in theology, although I became a practicing buddhist in the Tibetan tradition for a while too (I did read some Zen texts as well, which were quite remarkable); I received teachings directly from His Holiness the Dali Lama.

The problem is Pete, your statements betray a complete lack of understanding of science, which makes me think you might not have done the groundwork, and just using words like 'multiverse' doesn't mean you are actually discussing science. You're not alone in this, as many, many climate change deniers, BANDits and politicians all use the language of science without understanding what they are actually discussing.

Time to do the groundwork.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:57 AM

In response to some of you half educated morons, the same prunes who think I don't contribute anything valid to this forum and attempt to slag me of i n your pathetic way mebe should consider this: Present-day society is wholly based on the exploitation of the vast masses of the working class by a tiny minority of the population.
That is the class of the landowners and that of the capitalists.

It is a slave society, since the "free" workers, who all their life work for the capitalists, are "entitled" only to such means of subsistence as are essential for the maintenance of slaves who produce profit, for the safeguarding and perpetuation of capitalist slavery.

The economic oppression of the workers inevitably calls forth and engenders every kind of political oppression and social humiliation, the coarsening and darkening of the spiritual and moral life of the masses. The workers may secure a greater or lesser degree of political liberty to fight for their economic emancipation, but no amount of liberty will rid them of poverty, unemployment, and oppression until the power of capital is overthrown. Religion is one of the forms of spiritual oppression which everywhere weighs down heavily upon the masses of the people, over burdened by their perpetual work for others, by want and isolation. Impotence of the exploited classes in their struggle against the exploiters just as inevitably gives rise to the belief in a better life after death as impotence of the savage in his battle with nature gives rise to belief in gods, devils, miracles, and the like. Those who toil and live in want all their lives are taught by religion to be submissive and patient while here on earth, and to take comfort in the hope of a heavenly reward. But those who live by the labour of others are taught by religion to practise charity while on earth, thus offering them a very cheap way of justifying their entire existence as exploiters and selling them at a moderate price tickets to well-being in heaven. Religion is opium for the people. Religion is a sort of spiritual booze,   in which the slaves of capital drown their human image, their demand for a life more or less worthy of man.

So there!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 08:04 AM

Well done! Glad you agree with the co-Messiahs and I about religion. Trouble is, that amount of sense immediately disqualifies you from writing the scriptures. And I miss being a Yegg or a Cake Eater.

Horlicks!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM

You copied and pasted that, concerened, you cheating bugger! It is grammatical in a way that is far beyond your linguistic abilities and, stylistically, is nothing like your usual stuff. One has only to compare your intro with the substantive in order to glean that much. Still, I like it. Sort of. A bit of a rant of the sort you might hear from a bloke who thinks the Socialist Worker's Party is a bit right-wing, but not bad for you. keep it coming, you old scrotum you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

Grrr. I corrected that small k before posting. What's occurrin'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:06 AM

Damn! You had me going there for a minute, Conc me owd pal. Well done again for that. I thought you had actually learned to reason and how to put your point forward and then I realised it was such a different style to your usual it could not be so.

It's all down to Lenin.

You could have at least brought yourself more up to date and copied Lennon word for word instead.

Still, considering, I think it could be at least a C for effort. Must try harder.

Hillocks

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 09:32 AM

Militant Atheism is not a Religion!
It is a Cause directed to the Liberation of humanity from the shackles of Ignorance, Lies, Superstition, Greed, Oppression and Wholesale Bloody Minded Idiocy in the name of an Entirely Non-existent Supernatural Imperialist Autocracy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 11:41 AM

I would agree but the argument being made here by some is that somehow a militant cause is automatically a religion because it has passionate devotees. That would make militant Democrats a religious order, or militant revolutionaries a religious order or for that matter militant animal rights activists or even Greenpeace a religious order. Or militant scientists or militant union organizers. Is there somehow an absurd fallacy here? Can you be militant without being religious? Apparently there are those on this thread that don't think so.

Again, I ask, is any criticism or examination of religious beliefs deemed to be
religious in itself? Suppose there is militant criticism or examination of religious beliefs? Does the "militant" adjective mean "religious"?

Another question, do you have to believe in a god to be "religious"? Is, for an example, Stalinist Communism a religion? (It certainly had supplicating devotees
and a hierarchical structure). Some might argue that it had a religiosity about it.

When terms start getting thrown around, you run into a quagmire of semantics
and meanings.

The fact remains that "militant atheism" has an accusatory tone when used by theists, generally to discredit non-belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket can't wait to tell all
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 12:35 PM

Hey hey!

I'm a capitalist. Oh bliss, concernered can work out what they cut and pasted and once they've begun to understand what they pretend to mean, they can point the finger at me and say it's all my fault!

Fecking well minted too me old duck.

(Too poor to put anything in the collecting plate at the next bingo session though, co Messiah and associated gnome. You know we always leave it to the church poor to put money on the plate. We posh gits only attend to be able to look down on others.)

I worship a God too, or used to when I was in business. The god has a name. Mammon.

The funny thing is, all religious people worship that particular God, they are just too ashamed to admit that is what it is all about. False piety and all that to disguise that money and resource equal power. During the next hymn etc and don't forget to tick the gift aid box.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 02:46 PM

O dear................


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 03:55 PM

I am a social, egalitarian, philanthropic, capitalist. As long as doesn't involve giving money to imaginary beings it will do for me. Oh, hang on, Gnomes are NOT imaginary are they? Or Lightning Ballers?

Brass Tacks

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:45 PM

"the argument being made here by some is that somehow a militant cause is automatically a religion because it has passionate devotees. "

No it hasn't. That is a straw man arguments typical of people who who will go to wild rhetorical and illogical lengths to promote their own point of view. Much the same way that some religious extremists promote their own points of view.

You are constantly proving that you personally are as zealous as any Internet Christian I have ever met. Whether or not you want yo say you are religious about it or not, is entirely your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:09 PM

...and so the Magic Roundabout continues it's merry way.

Time for bed said Zeberdee

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:18 PM

"You are constantly proving that you personally are as zealous as any Internet Christian I have ever met. "

No, this is not true. If anything, I am opposed to an authoritarian way of looking at religion or non-religion. I sense a strong streak of authoritarianism in posts of this nature and an accusatory tone which sheds no light on this issue.

The irony (if not downright funny) is the recent advent of a so-called "Atheist church"
which is springing up worldwide. It seems to me that the baggage of religion is being carried into this sphere and the Sunday Assemblies seem to downplay atheist ideas to attract followers.

" That is a straw man arguments typical of people who who will go to wild rhetorical and illogical lengths to promote their own point of view."

This is a straw man argument used by people of a religious persuasion against people of non-belief as if the religious points of view are somehow "sane". This is not in harmony with the notion of "turning the other cheek", bringing into focus the hypocrisy of some who would prefer to accuse and set in judgement their authoritarian views.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:39 PM

You are constantly proving that you personally are as zealous as any Internet Christian I have ever met.

Interesting point there, Wacko. But do tell us: how many religion threads has Musket started, and how many have you started? So who's the zealot, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 06:53 PM

O dear................

You see, concerened, it should be "Oh dear". Yes it isn't important. But it does show what a bloody charlatan you are. That last rather erudite and super-grammatical (though ranting) post of yours wasn't, er, actually you, was it? Whatever bollocks us lot here talk, at least it's our own bollocks. You have shown that, when you're any good, you're only any good when you're talking someone else's bollocks. Nice one son...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:46 PM

"Interesting point there, Wacko. But do tell us: how many religion threads has Musket started, and how many have you started? So who's the zealot, huh? "

I was quoting stringsinger Mr science and logic. What does Musket have to do with that? Huh? You'd be formidable if you had even below average reading skills.

"" That is a straw man arguments typical of people who who will go to wild rhetorical and illogical lengths to promote their own point of view.""

Way to once more ignore the point by providing dogmatic non-sequitors, But you are NOTHING like a religious zealot.(sarcasm) It is hard to take your criticism of me seriously when it is so divorced from truth or reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 07:58 PM

Answer the friggin' question, Wacko. How many threads has Musket started on religious topics, and how many have you started? Don't you think that true zealots start more threads? Answer the question, Wackers, otherwise feel free to be condemned as a hypocrite of the highest order!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 10:29 PM

Yes Mr. Scientist. Starting threads is the true sign of a fanatic. Not turning every thread that has a hint of religion into a childish bulling insult party. It certainly isn't calling people names like "whacko" when they do not share your beliefs.

Stringsinger starts many threads on this topic. As many as I do, I am sure. Are you calling him a fanatic?

Are you trying to convince us that you are a fanatic? Or are you just being careless in your thoughts? Again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 01:12 AM

Regular readers may recall I did start a thread in the BS section earlier this year.

Granted it was about ear wax and my stupidity with a cotton wool stick. ...

No. I haven't started a thread on any form of superstition. In fact threads I have started have been on a different abstraction. That of music.

All together now!

Fight the good fight with all your might!
Onward Christian Soldiers!



Imagine there's no heaven.
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky

In this task your objective is to separate the zealot from the rational person.
Ten marks are available and you have ten minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 02:56 AM

All worship the Holy earwax! I have the Messiah's cotton bud...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 03:43 AM

Have you been rummaging in the bins of our local GP surgery?

Again?

You won't find many converts to the true religion in our neck of the woods. The Wesley family are from around here and you can't move for busloads of Methodists on pilgrimages.

I do find it curious that Jerk is admonishing string singer for trying to perpetuate a thread he bloody started in the first place.

All string singer was doing was trying to dissuade idiots like us spoiling it by taking the piss.

Nice try and all that.

Gonads


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:00 AM

Noooo... You don't really need to have the actual item. Just say it is a genuine relic and the gullible faithful will believe. I can get a good deal on bone fragments, pieces of cloth and lumps of wood from a bloke up the road with a horse and cart if you like :-)

Hollyhocks!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM

Whoa! Hold up! I'm having a change of heart about this atheism business on account of some recent compelling evidence just in from a Russian Scientist who has photographed a soul leaving the body via the Gas Discharge Visualization Method. I guess this changes everything! Looks like Jack the Sailor Man was right all along...

http://www.adguk-blog.com/2013/09/scientist-photographs-soul-leaving-body.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:06 AM

O dear; or should it be o dear? ..shaw you are as pretentious and nit picking as the rest of your phony cronies, or should it be crony's?

as for you talking your own bollocks, none of you have an original thought in your collective heads.All I see here is a re hash of stuff you have read,or another form of plagiarism?

Before you start arguing plagiarism and semantics or grammar with me; get your FACTS right.

I never claimed the statement in my last post as my own..you was only asked to CONSIDER..get it ?

Here is something else for you semi educated oafs to consider;some is my words some isn't, might be a bit beyond you, but you decide.

What is the difference between “O” and “Oh”? An example in hymms from the magical mans followers could be i.e. “BLESS THE LORD OH MY
SOUL” vs. “O God Beyond All Praising”?

You see phony, there is no practical difference at all. The “O” (or spelled “Oh” in English) is the voc in the hymsative article in Attic Greek and in Latin, and the name that followed it was in the appropriate case (vocative, meaning direct address).

The American slang “Yo” to get someone’s attention is exactly the same thing. (I find it interesting that 4000+ years later, the same phoneme means the same thing; rather like Kodaly’s observations on so-mi-la-so-mi!)

In Greek, it was an omega with a rough breathing; scholars disagree on
whether the rough breathing had an [h] sound or not, hence the KJV “Ho,
everyone that thirsteth” in Isaiah. A Hebrew/Greek scholar would have to tell you whether or not the “Ho” of the KJV reflects the Septuagint Greek only, or whether the actual Hebrew vocative article is “ho” or “oh” or something different.

Shaw, I never did Hebrew, only Greek and Latin at the seminar I attended.What little I did learn was that the Greek O” is the article used by St. Paul-- “O Corinthians” and has a formal connotation as well as, in his context, some urgency about it.

In modern English we use “Oh” in the formal vocative sense (“Oh, seaman stayns, could you...”) this is as well as in an much more informal way to preface a sudden thought or to express surprise.

You see shaw, before you start shooting your big flapper about and argueing something with someone, at least do your homework?

See phony...I still am to much for you


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 05:56 AM

Conc, me old pal. You are a gem. You are a man; a woman; learned Greek and Latin at a Seminar; have many clerical friends; preach Marxism; are a master of debating (particularly the mass kind...); talk complete bollocks and can make up things at the drop of a hat. You are my hero :-)

Tell you what though - Less of the cut and paste eh? It is blatantly obvious which is plagiarism and which is your own work. The copied words actually make some sense, even out of context. You are on the last phase of consideration for inclusion in our new hierarchy. Making things up is great. Just what we need to start a religion. But obvious C&P just gives the game away. I would be sad to lose you but almighty beings cannot be seen to be soft.

Sorrox?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:12 AM

You just don't get it do you gnomet?

It don't matter whether it is C&P or not..it is the research that goes into the statements along with the content.. that is the nub of the job .

This is invaluable when it comes to showing up yeggs and cakeating phonies such as shaw.

Don't tell me none of you have never cut and pasted..you lot do it all the time on this forum..especially when you are slagging me of with your low blows and shameful comments.


As usual I would appreciate it if ANY one of you can disprove anything I have said..plagiarised or no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:57 AM

Blimey, Conc. That's a bit of a tall order isn't it? Firstly, to disprove anything you have said would involve reading back through your posts and I don't think anyone would want to that. Secondly, to disprove anything you need to have something to disprove. Seeing as you have never actually said anything it is indeed impossible to disprove. Yea, OK, I could post up counter arguments to Marxist philosophy but, to be honest, I just couldn't be arsed. So, in a nutshell, yes, I cannot disprove anything you have said. Except maybe by saying I have never broken into a safe in my life and I don't like cake but that is being picky.

I suppose you win that one so we will all go away and sit, aghast, at your superior intellect. Trouble is, I am that distraught I am no longer able to offer you useful employment. Back to the institution for you I'm afraid. Still, I suppose someone of your mighty wit and resource will soon find something else.

Cocks!

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 09:03 AM

Just out of interest, how are you informally known, 'concerened'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 10:10 AM

Informally he/she /it is referred to by others as

Here he comes

And

There he goes

I on the other hand have a true genuine holy relic with a certificate of authenticity. When they built the new kop at Hillsborough they dug up the old tiered stand and flogged off sections of the concrete base to fans. It has been in four different gardens with me and right now forms the entrance into a small orchard just up from my raised beds.

I planted white Rose bushes either side but luckily Mrs Musket failed to see the sad Dick the Shit reference despite watching The White Queen on the telly the other month.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 12:26 PM

Musket, I think that you may be getting over-excited(?) Perhaps a short nap might help? I realise now that the person whose 'formal' name is 'concerened' (informal name unknown) can have that effect on people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 12:47 PM

'Concerened'

A typo?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 06:05 PM

to those telling me to do the groundwork and stop giving an opinion.-
please define the scientific method.
is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results.
then tell me how you can do experiments on the past and demonstrate evolutionism conforming to science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:45 PM

then tell me how you can do experiments on the past and demonstrate evolutionism conforming to science.

No point telling you anything, old chap, because you don't understand anything about anything whether we tell you or not. And, when we do tell you, you don't listen anyway. You haven't got a hope in hell of ever understanding "the scientific method", so just bugger off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Sep 13 - 08:57 PM

Concerened, old chumlet, we don't mind whether you copy 'n' paste everything you post, as long as you're honest enough (which you are patently not) to distinguish between what is your stuff and what is someone else's. Frankly, dear fellow, you have been found out here. And that big blustering post of yours is simply an attempt to cover up your embarrassment. You have actually confirmed my earlier point, that you have never contributed a single worthwhile point to any discussion/debate/argument here. Regurgitating someone else's point of view is as near as you've ever got and as near as you'll ever get. Shame. You do appear to have the odd view worth airing, but you prefer to get your knickers in a twist trying to invent what you see as colourful ways of "insulting" other people (epic fail on that score, dear chap, by the way, as you're even less amusing than Wacko Jacko). Still, we do admire your balls, even though they are quite possibly somewhat smaller than you seem to think they are. Keep calm and carry on, as they say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:07 AM

"...is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results."

Yes, it's something to do with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:17 AM

" ...is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results."

On the other hand, science is most definitely NOT about regarding everything that you read in an old book as the absolute truth!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:41 AM

sigh........................I can see I will have to get the building blocks and flip charts (they already has the crayons) out for the fraud shaw and the brain dead gnomet.

I see I need to point out AGAIN that the whole point of what I do is responding to you phoneys.

That is to remark imho , you are a bunch of patronising, self opinionated, sneering, semi educated ginger liberals - deny that shaw.

What is there to be found out on phony? I do not bluster, I am not ashamed of C&P ping a coupla times, I fessed up if you read the posts correctly.

If failing in my "colorful" comments or insults..well it seems to get you and seaman staynes, stringslurper, wizzjet, and the rest of the yeggs and cake eaters going.

Over to you........


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:11 AM

Yes, you have big balls all right. So big that they conceal your own irony from your gaze when you rattle on about frauds and phoneys when it was you with the copy-and-pasting who only "fessed up" when tackled! You're not funny when you try to be witty, but you're bloody hilarious when you don't intend to be. Stick around. You seem to have more ridicule-inducing potential than Wacko ever had.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 10:20 AM

"is it not something to do with what can be established by observable,repeatable and testable verification, until such time as same method may modify or in theory, nullify formerly established results."

What? Try this:

The Scientific Method


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 04:57 PM

they already has the crayons

That is to remark imho ,

I am not ashamed of C&P ping


Wonderful stuff, Conc, old lad. Shame you have already lost the opportunity to utilise your unique style to author our mighty works.

Look, lets make this easy. I honestly don't know if you are terminally stupid, if you are genuinely deluded or whether you are really clever. Let's assume it is the latter. If that is the case you will realise that this is getting really boring and your mighty intellect will be best served performing some other task. If you are really stupid you will not understand any of this. If you are so deluded that you think you are winning some sort of argument here then nothing will stop you from continuing.

Whatever the case is and whichever course of action you chose you cannot fail to be seen for how you present yourself. Which is, to be honest, idiotic in the extreme. Carry on digging anyway.

Bottox.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:46 PM

your mighty intellect will be best served performing some other task.

Nah Dave. We gave him the task of producing the Wacko plank-walking medallions, remember, and he managed three per week. Three per bloody week. By the time he'd upped production the demand had waned (he don't do crest-of-waves, innit), and we had to cut our losses by melting 'em all down again in order to manufacture a job lot of co-Messiah statuettes (which are almost ready to wow the market, by the way - watch this space). We do have altar boy vacancies he could apply for, but only for those applicants who eschew those inconvenient underpants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 05:54 PM

Ahhhh. OK. Thanks Messiah S.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 06:23 PM

thankyou stu.
best I can see, this enlarges on my take, rather than detract from it.
steve continues to bluster ,as though that was a reasonable answer to a simple question.
shimrod charges that creationists only rely on the bible on origins. in one sense he is correct since we believe it is based on history as well as [what we believe] is revelation.
but it is consistent with science .
1- positively by reference to an intelligent designer being in our experience the best explanation of anything being made and/or exhibiting massive complexity.
2- negatively by demonstrating all the failures and problems of evolutionary ideas.eg
a- it requires some sort of naturalistic miracle without a miracle maker!
this is usually passed over as - we don't know yet - begging the question that there will be an answer to what is evidently impossible.
b- things like easily degrading materials still being present, that ought to be long gone if really MYO.

NONE OF THIS PROVES that Christian faith is true but is consistent with it,- as most scientists in our history maintained, and many still do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Sep 13 - 08:47 PM

None of it proves you actually have a brain. Why don't you just put a sock in it and leave us merely suspecting that you're a clueless idiot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 03:00 AM

" ... shimrod charges that creationists only rely on the bible on origins. in one sense he is correct since we believe it is based on history as well as [what we believe] is revelation.
but it is consistent with science ."

I've no doubt that the Bible is "based" on history - but that doesn't mean that it contains the absolute truth. As for "revelation" - that just means that you believe that something has been revealed - why should I believe it and why should I be impressed?

It's NOT consistent with science - and every scientific observation and measurement takes us further and further away from the biblical account of " Creation". In fact, we're now so far away from it that it disappeared over the horizon years ago!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:26 AM

The bible is based on history? I am sure I have mentioned this before but it is worth repeating. I was talking to my friend Ted Edwards about Dan Brown's 'Da Vinci Code'. I mentioned that because it contains a few verifiable facts people seem to accept that it must be true. "People have done the same with the Bible for thousands of years" replied Ted.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:40 AM

Aye but not that many thousands of years eh Dave? After all, you can't predate when he made the earth.......

Well, my co messiah and associated gnome, I am about to embark on a pilgrimage tomorrow to Thailand. I suspect they don't do real religious things like bingo, but I will get dragged round their temples I suppose by Mrs Musket who likes doing such things.

I shall see if there are any tips we can incorporate into the real true path and claim it as ours all along. Up to yet, I see that the essence of life is a hint of lemongrass in all the cooking, always carry your passport on you and check for an Adams Apple before getting too excited about their interest in you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 05:51 AM

Have a good 'un, Messiah M.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 07:33 AM

Sorry I was a little late in responding; I have been ministering to the sick, feeding the hungry and helping people lest fortunate than my self.

I do this freely as I do not have the time or the inclination to spend loads of time on mudcat sites being judgmental, sneering, patronising and abusive such as shaw, gnomet and the rest of the nomarks.

gnomad, I am neither deluded, nor am I terminally stupid nor am i super intelligent, I do however have a sense of humour and a fair idea what constitutes a phony and a fraud.

take your choice... have a really nice day... you hear?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 09:02 AM

I am very glad to hear that you do have a sense of humour, Conc. You certainly need it. Nice to see that you have spotted the difference between here and hear as well although your punctuation and grammar still leaves a lot to be desired :-) As to what constitutes a phoney and a fraud, I think the father of Taoism put it rather better than I ever could.

He who knows others is wise; he who knows himself is enlightened.

BTW - I have also just been helping people less fortunate than myself although I suspect they did not notice.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:42 AM

Note that I put the "based" in inverted commas, Dave. I intended this as shorthand for: "Some parts of the Bible may be loosely based on verifiable historical facts, allowing for mistranslations, misinterpretations, differences and discontinuities in authorship and quite a bit of mythologising, poetic licence and out and out fiction". I hope that that clarifies that point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:59 AM

No need for any explanation, Shimrod. I did realise that based was indeed the word in question. Thanks anyway.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:53 PM

every scientific measurement...?
how do you apply the scientific method to the long gone [supposedly existing MYO]past shimrod.
elephant hurling!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket not flying till tonight
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:53 AM

How then do you apply your own method to translations of long gone documents pete?

Ark hurling?

Anyway. All my fingers are useful. Considering I was led to believe that the Bible has Noah shagging his own daughters to kick start the human race again, surely there would be at least one superfluous digit? My own research into this includes observation since buying a house in North Lincolnshire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:15 AM

"every scientific measurement...?
how do you apply the scientific method to the long gone [supposedly existing MYO]past shimrod."

Oh, you know, all those things like stratification, radioactive dating methods, comparison of fossils with other extinct and living creatures etc., etc., etc. Plus, of course, the flood of recent discoveries in fields like physics, astronomy and cosmology. All of those things that you 'Creationists' are determined not to believe in.

An image comes into my mind of a silly old man attempting to stop a tsunami by waving his arms in the air!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:22 AM

Three score times ten.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:48 AM

"a- it requires some sort of naturalistic miracle without a miracle maker!"

Huh? That's not science, it's a creationist statement. Show me a single peer-reviewed paper that says any natural process (including evolution) requires a "naturalistic miracle", whatever one of those actually is.


"b- things like easily degrading materials still being present, that ought to be long gone if really MYO."


Righto, apart from the rather ambiguous phrase "things like easily degrading materials" which lacks any specific reference to whatever you're talking about, this statement seems to demonstrate a continued lack of understanding of the whole concept of science.

Who says they should be gone? You? Me? If by careful testing, confirmation and peer review we learn they're still present then we can assume they're not as easily degradable as we thought. There y'go - something learnt. Science in action.

I don't know for certain whose work you're referring to here, but think I can guess and this is an old Creationist trope that misunderstands what is a reasonably contentious hypothesis. Thing is, this Creationist nonsense makes the science sound far less interesting than it actually actually is. The testing of hypothesis often throws up new discoveries that lead to greater understanding and progress. It's all good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 03:03 PM

that was lot ,musket, seduced by his daughters who were worried about not getting husbands.
many of the bible ancient copies are still around though some are "long gone".

shimrod- have you got a past-oscope that demonstrates that the correct assumptions were made to interprete these methods.
and I just love it when a modern formed rock tests at being MYO!
BUT OF COURSE YOU CAN ALWAYS CLAIM CONTAMINATION!

The most recent and spectacular examples would be the assorted soft tissue finds in dino bones. no one believed it could last millennia ,stu, [less you can quote otherwise] till it was admitted that it really was in the bones.
so now you say it demonstrates it can last that long!
it all goes to show IMO that evolutionism cant be falsified - you just move the goal posts!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:01 PM

" ... I just love it when a modern formed rock tests at being MYO!"

pete, what, pray (pun intended) is a "modern formed rock". And are you really implying that reputable scientists deliberately falsify results in order to - what? - discredit the Bible?? And do their peers really let them get away with it?

I suspect that many reputable scientists couldn't give a toss about the Bible. And I also suspect that most of those scientists who claim to have religious faith don't believe that biblical accounts of creation represent absolute truth - as you seem to do.

As for soft tissue in fossils, as Stu says, if such tissues have been found, they represent interesting discoveries. A scientist would definitely not conclude: "Soft tissues shouldn't exist in fossils, thus the theory of evolution is wrong and the biblical account of Creation must be true!" Such a conclusion makes no logical sense whatsoever!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:04 AM

"The most recent and spectacular examples would be the assorted soft tissue finds in dino bones. no one believed it could last millennia ,stu, [less you can quote otherwise] till it was admitted that it really was in the bones.
so now you say it demonstrates it can last that long!
it all goes to show IMO that evolutionism cant be falsified - you just move the goal posts!"


You have to understand there ARE NO GOAL POSTS, that's not what science is about, we do not deal in absolutes (in my experience, only fools do). This is a learning process for us all, and although no-one believed intact soft tissue could survive such a long period of time, no-one would have ruled it out with evidence one way or another. Now we are finding evidence.

The work is by Mary Schweitzer, and I've seen a couple of her talks (and talks taking an opposing view) regarding the preservation of soft tissues in a T. rex limb bone.

If Schweitzer's findings are borne out then we move on, that's how science works. Also, palaeontology is using a range of cross-disciplinary techniques to study ancient life, including the discovery of the preservation of structural colours in feathers that tell us what dinosaurs looked like in life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:38 AM

White rabbits!! new month but the same self indulgent tripe/shite being spouted by cameron,gnomet, muskrat, osbourne, shaw, millibland, pete from his own little galaxy et all


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:55 AM

Eeeee, you are a breath of fresh air, Conc pal. Anyone with no idea of the irony of complaining for the umpteenth time that people are being self indulgent and talking the same tripe has to be OK by me :-) The only difference is, I suppose, that whereas most of of us know we are talking bollocks you seem to think it is serious.

Out of interest, self indulgent is fine. In the words of Ricky Nelson, "You can't please everyone so you've got to please yourself." And no, it doesn't mean what you think... Tripe is good too. As is liver. I have eaten both in the last couple of weeks.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:26 AM

Tripe ? why ? it's feckin tasteless Dave.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

Tasteless? Nah, not much I grant but it does have a flavour. I must say though the uncooked kind benefits from vinegar and black pepper and if heated I do tend to do it in a flavoured white sauce - Usualy involving chiles!

Now, if you were to say I was tasteless I couldn't argue at all :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

Just out of interest, pete, where does all the stuff you spout come from? Is any of it from reputable scientists - or is it just regurgitated from the collected works of the Rev. Dr. Teaparty Redneck of the Fundamentalist University of Hicksville, Alabama?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:30 PM

Tripe? tasteless? hanson you must be a goddamn southerner.Tripe and onions that superb English soul food was, as everyone knows, invented in Yorkshire.

It can also be enjoyed in its bleached state cold with a little vinegar, white pepper and a tad of salt.Also it is known to be deep fried in batter.

When I was working as a master chef in Paris, I invented a tripe dish that contained cream, white wine and fresh lobster.

Michael Boccacini, that other great chef invented a lovely cassoulet using tripe.

It goes without saying that you are tasteless gnomet..anyone putting chiles in tripe has to be.Black pepper.. philistine!

gnomet, small man syndrome wouldn't you say folks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: saulgoldie
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Hasa Diga Ebowai.

Saul


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 02:38 PM

You are just genius, Conc. A woman and a chef! You MUST join the Holy Trinity. When Messiah M gets back we will put it to the vote. You would be just perfect for making the tea at the bingo sessions.

I must admit to coming from t'other side o't'pennines where we do have multiple condiments to experiment with. But I can't say too much coz I have just emigrated to North Yorkshire where I am on a mission to teach the locals how to serve black peas. (Vinegar, salt and white pepper) and make proper black puddings.

No syndrome here BTW. I just am a small man. Just as you do not have an inferiority complex:-)

Hakuna Matata

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:04 PM

yes shimrod- my information does come from fully qualified scientists.
I know you might have been given the impression from the Darwin camp that there are none that accept creation but there are quite a number, and even more Darwin doubters.
IMO stu there are goal posts, but only the creationists say where they are. darwinists claim to be open to following the evidence wherever it leads but it seems to me they do so at about the same rate as the theory they vigorously defend!. deep time dogma is not negotiable.
I had read about the discovery also, of dinos being more coloured than previously illustrated. that has no bearing on their dating does it?
DNA discovered though would. i predict that as and when more is discovered you's will still hang on to your religiously held deep time, just as you are with the finds now being established.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:21 PM

What is the seven stars link, Pete??


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:57 PM

Pete, there are no goal posts. Science is an incremental process that takes time, as research needs to be done, written up, published, peer-reviewed, re-tested by other scientists and developed upon. The continued use of phrases like 'Darwinists' and the laughable 'deep time dogma'.

If intact DNA was found and proved to be more durable than we thought, why would that challenge the existence of 'deep time'? It might challenge my understanding of the robustness of the DNA molecule, but that's fine as I am open to be challenged.

I don't believe in your god as there is not a single datum I am aware of indicating his/hers/its existence. By all means, point me to peer-reviewed research published in a scientific journal that might challenge this position. My betting is you won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:13 PM

Ah..gnome, what you are trying to do with your rapier like wit is trying to squeeze an inch in on me, huh?

Hakuma matata is more popular in comic books that in the real world..however probably heard it in Kenya..in your case you may have met someone from there.......or seen the lion king movie?

Whatever way, you cant really argue in English so you have no chance in cod Swahili.. again proving you a bigger fraud than Father Christmas

Would the tea be earl grey or Darjeeling? Again a pretty insulting remark from you.

You see phony, when I left my career in the Tanzanian navy as senior catering officer, holding the rank of vice admiral, I became chief tea buyer for Texas, in the southern province of India, so I do know me teas.

what you doing infesting North Yorkshire with your smug presence?

Lancashire got fed up with you?

I take it you mean carlings when you talk about black peas.. again you get it wrong..please stop trying to be smart. Get back to counting beans, and the thumb up bum syndrome.

Take three times a day.. that could act as your security blanket.


Good night sweet prince.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:40 AM

Well, I didn't think I really need to point it out to someone of your calibre but here goes -

From: saulgoldie - PM
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

Hasa Diga Ebowai.

Saul


You see, the above expression crops up in "The Book of Mormon, The Musical" It's a clever sendup of Hakuna Matata from "The Lion King". So it was not really addressed to you but to Saul, who I am sure would have spotted the significance.

As to tea. Well, we are talking Sheffield here so I reckon PG Tips or Co-op would be best. We don't really want to give them ideas above their station if they are to be our faithful congregation.

We are beginning to have serous doubts as to your aptitude for the job I'm afraid but what you lack in coherence is more than compensated for by creative delusion. Keep it up, it gets funnier by the minute.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

"yes shimrod- my information does come from fully qualified scientists."

Ah yes, pete, but qualified in what? And have they published in reputable, peer-reviewed, SECULAR journals?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 02:17 PM

So gmomead, you aint heard about carlings?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM

I have indeed heard of carlings, carlins, pigeon peas, parched peas, brown peas and black peas. I have also heard of door stops, barm cakes, babbies yeds, fly pies and so many names for other foods that I have forgotten most of them. Thanks for asking.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:41 PM

I doubt shimrod, if there is a scientific disapline that is not represented. and yes they have been published in peer reviewed journals. I hear that occasionally even some papers that have implications on origins have slipped through, but usually anything that supports the creationist model is filtered out.

seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method.

blandiver- seven stars is just the name of the pub where the crayside singaround used to be held.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket pissing himself laughing
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 09:56 PM

Greetings from a dodgy but almost functional internet connection in Thailand. Mrs Musket is getting ready to go out for the day and I have a few moments of boredom, so Mudcat is usually worth a giggle in such circumstances.

pete. You are right you know. You ARE referring to proper peer reviewed publication, as you note that creationist nonsense is filtered out. If you bother to ask yourself why that is, you might begin to understand the meaning of the word science.

You can be a fully qualified scientist, but if you conclude a solution to a hypothesis without foundation, your qualifications tend to go down in value..... Gaps in knowledge are not an invitation to fill the gaps with Jesus. After all, asserting something to be true without proof or foundation could be seen as lying if the intention is to persuade, and as you said on another thread, Christians don't lie.

Which is a pity, because that means the altar boys and choir boys deserved it, and they should have kept quiet about it after all! All those vulnerable women and young men who went to men of the cloth for protection because they were brought up to trust clergy, it was their fault for inadvertently tempting the holy ones, and to complain means you are branded a liar.

Hey, the mist is raising. I see what liar means now, in the ecclesiastical sense at any rate.

Tea. Do you know... Our hotel here serves Glengetti tea? Ok, with UHT milk and they don't boil the water properly, but it's the thought that counts.

Co Messiah and associated gnome. Of course the rear ending Admiral can serve the teas. Can't be any worse than Betty Swollox and the fiasco co Messiah S. Witnessed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:14 AM

Yo Messiah M - Hope you are having a good time smiting the heathen in those foreign climes. I have just had another revelation. How do you do it? Anyway, I have just noticed the nautical theme. Sailors, Admirals. Do you think it could be something to do with the seawater or being cooped up for weeks on end?

Just a thought.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:44 AM

" ... but usually anything that supports the creationist model is filtered out."

Why do you think such papers are filtered out, pete?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:01 AM

Ah....Thailand.. I remember running cats from there in the '60's.

That was the time when I was Captain of a Swiss tramp steamer,with a fondue set contract with the Nepalese government.

But of course you smug armchair liberals and Daily Mail reading soggy crumpet-eaters wouldn't know anything about that .

Intresting life mine..very


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM

"seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method."

I,s give,s up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 06:30 AM

@Evolution theory.

Many details of evolution theory are disputed among scientists. However, if we formulate its central theorem weakly like "All animals and plants have common ancestors, and the evolution of species came about in a way compatible with probability theory (i.e. as if only by chance)", the overwhelming majority of biologists and philosophers of science subscribe to it, including all those that are not members of a Scripture religion, but also, and that is the crucial point, including a large number of Christians, who would have an easier life with "creationism" if it had any credibility.

Some theologians make the purely philosophical proviso that while evolution works as if driven by mere chance, it has in fact been planned by God. This statement has its own problematics, but does not interfere with science at all. (Not to be confused with the "Intelligent Design" variant of creationism, according to which God actively interferes with evolution, breaking the laws of probability.)

Note that evolution from one species to another can be observed with our eyes, and creates many new species every year - unless the whole scientific community (including its religious members) lie to us blatantly, consciously, and unanimously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 06:56 AM

Intresting life mine..very

Absolutely fascinating, Conc. How about giving us a potted history?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 07:18 AM

We already have the potty history.

Been to see the leaning Buddha today. You can't call it the lying Buddha as it religious and apparently religious people never lie.

Or is that just Christians? I get confused.

Any road up. Concererened seems right up our street. The tramp steamer bit seems convincing to me and after all we religious dudes are known for being naive and believing any old bollocks.

Yo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:46 PM

musket seems to be under the misconception that I was claiming Christians never lie.
read my last post again maybe. I said that for them to do so was inconsistent. this is because those doing so , and indeed clerical abusers of kids, are not heeding the God they claimed to serve.
but for the atheist,-can he point to a fixed standard?

IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists. the scientists in galileos day were slow catching on as well .
it should be noted that we are not talking of papers full of bible texts, but reasoned only from the scientific perpective.
I also hear that there are numerous submissions, so I would presume papers not agreeing with the reviewers worldview would have even less chance.

so soon, stu. nice talking to you.

griska - a large number of scientists used to subscribe to other things in the past that are now discarded.
seems that you have not read much creationist stuff because speciation is part of the model. the information was contained in the original animals from which the species descended ,mostly from losses in info ,I believe.
as to theologians accepting Darwinism, seems to me they are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,the artist formally known as concerened
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 02:04 PM

yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM

Pete,
griska - a large number of scientists used to subscribe to other things in the past that are now discarded.
Quite correct (except for the spelling of my name). I mentioned a fact, not claiming it to prove anything.
seems that you have not read much creationist stuff
None at all, but I believe you that they have an explanation for everything.
as to theologians accepting Darwinism, seems to me they are sawing off the branch they are sitting on.
Now here we are at my actual point (though regrettably quite off the thread title). The word "Darwinism" is somewhat burnt, therefore I specified a central theorem that is challenged by creationists (- this much I read). Those theologians, and other religious people who understand the meaning of science, dismiss creationism because they found that it cannot be supported seriously. Some of them regret this sorely, others (the majority, I guess) have long ago made their peace with science, accepting that the realms of religion and science must be strictly separated. They do not find that the Bible really demands otherwise - ask Joe for details.

Actually my hope of convincing anybody here is not too high. I just want to emphasize that there are good reasons for the principles of evolution theory to be taught at all schools, being quite a different thing from religion or ideology.

I also think that children have a justified interest in learning about the faith of their community, including all mythology. When they reach puberty, they will inevitably find out how to interpret that, what is taken seriously and what not quite.

A large part of what passes for religion, particularly in Islam, is actually just cultural custom, or even downright abuse. That "Islamic" school was shut down because girls had to sit on the back benches etc. Non-religious private schools are prone to abuse as well - power is temptation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:37 PM

What are you yawning at, Conc? Here we are, giving you the chance to enlighten us all about your very interesting dreams life and you don't take us up on the opportunity. What are we to make of that?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket getting his tuppence worth
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:50 PM

Of course he is bored Oh Brother Gnome. If you or I had to watch a programme on the telly we didn't understand we'd yawn too?

pete. I know you said lying wasn't consistent with Christianity as opposed to Christians don't lie. If we put the hair splitting to one side for a moment. .. We are still confronted by the second bit you said when you went on to generalise with the word atheist. It seemed to me you were willing to get a big brush dripping with whitewash and slap it on to those you refer to as atheists yet seek to be more selective when it comes to Christians?

Then you ask if "atheists" can point to a fixed standard? So a buggering priest should know his crime is wrong but a paedophile who isn't religious has the excuse of no moral compass? Further, you are saying, as written, that you cannot have moral standards without a guide book?

Then. . Then you wonder why I seek to ridicule your piff and waffle? When it comes to insulting I'm not in your league mate. I bow to the master.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM

You can tell people how to behave, but you cant tell people what to think.
They will do it despite themselves.
Some people need "God". Some people need "truth". Some people want to be "kings".....and they use "God or "truth" to fight their battles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 04:39 AM

Is that anything like the 'truth' about forced medical procedures for homosexuals ake?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

"IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists."

And maybe, pete, the reputable journal editors know that a 'scientist' who thinks he knows everything already and is seeking to work backwards to some revealed, absolute truth is not a scientist, in any generally recognised sense, at all. A true scientist deals with uncertainty all the time - but rarely, if ever, with unassailable truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket lowering himself
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:33 AM

Aye Akenaton, and occasionally they use their "liberal" credentials to fight their battles.

Who'd have thought it?

I have no problem whatsoever with what people think. We can't all have perfect upbringings, role models and experiences to fall back on. But if we try to convince others, some things are best left in our heads and not on our keyboards or mouths eh?

Some things may be part of our makeup but best if we keep them quiet and not shout about them. You wouldn't stand in a pub and admit you wank to pictures of Carole Smiley, so why post on the internet that you have issues with the existence of a whole group of our society?

Let alone come up with a solution...


Co messiah and associated gnome. It appears someone has joined the thread who fits the bill to join us in our true religion, on account of blinkered bigotry and endless trying to justify it. An ideal prophet you may think. Could I suggest though that not even we are that desperate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:38 AM

"IMO ,shimrod the reviewing system for submissions is philosophically dismissive of creationist scientists. the scientists in galileos day were slow catching on as well ."

So . . . the peer review system is at fault because papers supporting your faith don't get published in journals?

Here's the rub: if creationists want to take on science they have to use scientific methods, they have to do it in the framework that hundreds of thousands of scientists have arrived at by common consensus over the centuries. If they don't then it isn't science, as none of us engaged in research can simply make up a new way of assessing the merit of the work of others to fit in with our own viewpoints.

Also, many papers are rejected for a whole host of reasons and many of these are by experienced, respectable and honest scientists. The truth is if there are flaws in the method or the data or any other number of reasons the paper may well be rejected; very few papers ever get accepted without some revisions.

So if your 'creationist scientists' are not getting papers published, there must be a flaw in the way they are doing the research.

One more thing, about this quote:

"seem, stu that you are confirming my prediction that you,s will continue to stretch scientific findings so as to defend what cannot be verified by the scientific method."

I take exception to being called a liar or having my integrity questioned by someone who neither knows me or constantly refuses to engage in reasoned debate, or back it up with any meaningful data (where are these supposed papers for example?). You might think all scientists are liars, but you are very, very wrong and you would do well to show some of that fabled christian understanding to people who don't share your opinion; you might think I am a fat twat in league with the devil himself and you might think I am deluded and wrong, but I do not lie or attempt to deceive, as my work is about the fundamental nature of the universe we live in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 09:58 AM

Ian.... you've made a fool of yourself on the other thread, don't do the same on this one, or I may have to sort you out ....again. :0)

With facts of course, not abuse!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 06:31 PM

I did not call you a liar, stu.
believing that you reinterpret science to fit in with your presuppositions would be correct.
if that is calling you a liar , it is only what you say about creationists when they present their evidences. whats good for the goose.......
so how can the scientific model- ie repeatable etc- be used to claim you are right about the past?.

musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?
and please do not imply [if you are] that I am excusing abusers whether they be clerics or atheists.

shimrod which scientists think they know everything?
no- what we have is scientists that have presupositions that influence their research. it might be creation, ID ,or evolutionary.
the latter camp, I suspect hold the most power.

apologies grishka, for wrong spelling.
but what about those theologians who have examined evolutionism and found it cannot be taken seriously, not to mention scientists!

the argument from authority cuts either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:58 PM

pete. I am not. You have made your disdain of abusers of people using their religious authority plain, and the thrust of your argument is genuine. Not one I agree with but genuine. To get there however, you distort scientific discovery and that isn't genuine. That's the beef.



Anyway. I am going to sit back and enjoy the thread. Apparently someone is going to fill it with facts. Can't wait. Been waiting a bloody long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:12 AM

"shimrod which scientists think they know everything?"

Why creation "scientists" (it pains me to write that - even with the inverted commas!) of course. They claim to know everything because it's all written down in an old book!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:57 AM

Science cannot explain mental telepathy, but I know (believe)that it exists.

Is my belief any different to a belief in "god"?

I know many people who have experienced their "god"

Why does it concern atheists so much?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM

Why does it concern atheists so much?

Because such experience a) uncommon, b) utterly subjective & c) ultimately perverse in that it leads the 'believer' to a mystical sense of 'righteousness' entirely incompatible with the entirely wonderful post-religious reality of human life in the early 21st Century which is a) common to all, b) entirely objective, and c) the natural result of 50,000 of human struggle, striving, wonder, learning, enquiry, discovery and enlightenment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 04:29 AM

"believing that you reinterpret science to fit in with your presuppositions would be correct."

. . . Except I don't, or rather I try to the abustle best of my ability not to otherwise it makes what I'm doing worthless. Question everything. If I do interpret my data to fit my own presuppositions then the peer review process will pick that up when I publish and I will have to go back and start again or whatever.

My point about creationists arguing against science is they must use scientific method to support their hypothesis (the world was made in seven days by god) if they want to be taken seriously by scientists, otherwise they are simply shouting gobbledygook.

I don't have a problem with religion and science (Buddhists positively embrace it) and many scientists are people of faith who happen to understand how science works and it makes not one jot of difference what they believe if they are doing good science, and bad science is the sole domain of anyone, but a universal scourge.

It's the constant distortion that bothers me, the creationist desire to rubbish honest endeavour and attempts to change a system that humankind have developed to deal with the questions raised by scientific philosophy over millennia. This refusal to address the issues by actually making the effort to understand modern science looks lazy and rather petulant, a sort of cultivated ignorance that is quite depressing to witness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM

""musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?""

I do hate to see anyone entering into serious debate without even the most basic equipment.

All morality is variable Pete. It always has been and it always will be.

Morality is definable as what a society finds acceptable in the circumstances pertaining at any given time.

We used to consider it morally acceptable to marry girls as young as twelve years old, in ceremonies presided over by Christian priests. Now we don't!

We used to consider it morally acceptable to hang criminals for a whole variety of crimes, with a priest in attendance. Now we don't!

In other countries both practises are still considered moraly acceptable.

And the clincher......We used to consider it morally acceptable (in fact, a moral imperative) to send armies out to other countries for the express purpose of murdering non Christians.

NOW WE DON'T!

The most important point about this is that all these activities were considered morally acceptable, not just by God fosaken Atheists, but by Christians also, many of whom were excessively enthusiastic about the third example.

So don't keep trying, in your customary disingenuous fashion, to claim a moral high ground for the religious, which simply does not exist.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:10 AM

Ake, if you would take the trouble to read what we have been saying you would see that a belief in god or anything is not the issue. In fact, the joint Messiahs and I have founded our whole new religion on the fact that Messiah S once saw some ball lightning! The problem is with religions that insist that everyone else has to believe in their imaginary friend or face the, often fatal, consequences. Most, if not all, religions are based on the certainty that god or gods exist. Atheists have the knowledge that nothing is certain and therefore cannot possibly form a religion. The whole premise of the thread is nonsensical and should be treated accordingly. But I suspect your issues with Musket and me would prevent you from reading any further than the headlines.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 05:18 AM

""Why does it concern atheists so much?""

Simple Ake! It doesn't, until some religious evangelist starts multiple threads to attack them.

Not one of the non believers would have bothered to start anything, had JtS not got a bug up his arse about "militant Atheism", an oxymoron.

If you attack anyone and he fights back, that does not make him a militant, the term applies much more aptly to you!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:24 AM

had JtS not got a bug up his arse about "militant Atheism", an oxymoron.

No - it's actually a tautology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:51 AM

"musket- of course the atheist can have morality without a law book , but what is his ultimate authority , and what is to stop that morality being variable?"

The point pete raises is an interesting one, as it can be difficult to for some to understand from where secular morality derives it's origin, integrity and foundation from if not handed down from a supreme being? In the modern world it might appear that secular society has abandoned wholesale any sense of moral direction as we slowly cower under the ever-increasing weight of the free market and it's anything goes approach to consumerism and disregard for any sort of common decency.

However, look closer and it becomes clear that there is a strong moral thread running through secular society, albeit one largely ignored by politicians, religious heads (often of the more fanatical ilk) and business leaders. It is present in the secular arts from painting to literature, in the way we look after our ill and vulnerable (the huge number of nameless, voiceless volunteers that give their time for others) and the concerns of the countless people debating on the internet every day.

Where did this moral code spring from? Many societies the world over have independently created moral codes that are very similar despite being separated by temporal and geographic location. This might indicate that as human beings we are predisposed towards certain traits, and these manifest themselves as laws such as "don't kill" or "don't steal". These universal laws are an expression of an innate morality that we all possess; religious texts of all creed are simply another manifestation of this instinct, and no religion can rightly claim to have been the wellspring for this wisdom.

There is no need to credit a supernatural being with creating a moral code which binds us as a species, as our ancestors originated it and we perpetuate it. The idea that anyone is less moral or has less moral authority because they are atheist is fundamentally wrong and rather patronising to say the least, as it suggests we are incapable, without help from a mythical third party, to create a basic and universal code of morality; however, we've done just that.

See, human beings are actually quite clever when they put their minds to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:46 AM

I don't have any "issues" with you or Ian, Dave.
I understand you both, perfectly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM

I very much doubt that Ake. Anyone who can try to convince me that forcing medical procedures on people simply due to their sexual inclinations understands very little about me. Or about human rights.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:53 PM

stu- I of course reject your inference that believing in a creator is a rejection of science.
in fact believing the grand theory of evolution [kerkuts definition /? first matter, first life arising out of that matter and on through the evolutionary path] disregards what we do know , not just what we don't!
I ask you again, how can you apply the scientific method to the past?
" question everything" I doubt you do. it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

Pete, this thread is not the place to discuss creationism, but I will not dodge replying to your message:
but what about those theologians who have examined evolutionism and found it cannot be taken seriously, not to mention scientists! the argument from authority cuts either way.
Not at all, you misunderstood me. The theologians I wrote about, accept the principles of evolution theory although they would be better off with creationism, if they considered it to have any slight chance of being taken seriously. Of course I do not take their word for it (I do not need to, since I have some more direct knowledge of evolution theory and its philosophical foundations), but it should convince, for example, those people who seriously ask themselves whether creationism must be taught in schools to ensure equal chances.

My second argument (not a "proof" either) was that if creationism had any point, there would be some non-believing scientists backing it, if only for the chance of becoming famous - I do not know of any. (Note that most other "alternative sciences" find opportunists to discuss them just to sell some books.)

The good news for most religious people is that religion need not bother about science at all. There are other things to worry about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 09:31 PM

Actually Brother Gnome, there is a very good chance he does understand us perfectly.   There are many books by and about normal rational decent people and there is a chance he may have read one or two.

Or at least looked at the pictures.

Ok. Back to the pilgrimage. Flew down yesterday to Ko Samui for a few days. Not as many Buddhist temples for Mrs Musket to drag me round but plenty of other places that call to the initiated. They truly are a religious experience. The local term for them is beach bar. Very late at night they show big screen services to their deity, and they chant his name. Rrooooooonnnneeeeeyyyyyy!!!!!!

Although Mrs musket and I have found a quieter place of worship by this time. I would stay for the service but a few beers, lobster and an acceptable Pinot, I have another calling. Must have been the lobster. Feeling a bit better this morning though.

Suffering for my faith and spent the kids inheritance getting here. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:10 AM

"The good news for most religious people is that religion need not bother about science at all. There are other things to worry about."

Excellent Grishka!

Science has provided us with just as many horrors as it has benefits?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:00 AM

One particular horror has been the ease with which communication technology allows dangerous ideas to be pushed by evil people.

At one time the only way to spread fascism was to address a rally, Nuermburg being one such place.

Now with the miracles of technology you can spout off ideas to treat whole groups of society as second class citizens and think you are clever. At one time people had to turn up to hear filth. Now unsuspecting decent people have to put up with it.

Back in your hole worm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:48 AM

Please do not misinterpret me as if I had said that ethics should not bother with technology. The opposite is true.

I am well aware that most (!) posters to this thread try rhetoric tricks of the cheapest sort. If I were to counteract all of them, my day would be spent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:56 AM

""Science has provided us with just as many horrors as it has benefits?""

Science has provided no horrors per se.

Misuse/Abuse of science certainly has!

Why not direct the blame where it really belongs,...at the Abusers?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:25 AM

"I ask you again, how can you apply the scientific method to the past?"

Are you asking me here the methods palaeontology, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics etc etc address questions about past life, the earth and it's origin, the universe and it's origins? Or is there something else here I'm missing. I've already pointed you to a graphic showing broadly how science works, that should explain everything.


"in fact believing the grand theory of evolution [kerkuts definition /? first matter, first life arising out of that matter and on through the evolutionary path] disregards what we do know , not just what we don't!"

I'm sorry pete, but you're going to have to qualify that statement in order to continue this conversation. How does evolutionary theory disregard what we know? Where is this data? I wanna see what evidence you have to support this statement, otherwise this is pointless.

""question everything" I doubt you do. it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma."

I realise you have a low opinion of me as an advocate of science, but displaying this petulant attitude does your argument no favours. Your statement above is meaningless and apart from having a dig, I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but I'll have a go at addressing how we view deep time.

Every palaeontologist and geologist questions the current hypothesis about the age of the earth and the way rocks form every time we go into the field or analyse our data; it is one of the most fundamental requirements of being an earth scientist. Every time we extract a fossil we question how it arrived there, how it came to be fossilised and what sort of environment the animal lived and died in. Responsible collectors are rigorous about recording this information, as without context all you have is a pile of bones. Of course, it needs lots of data from more than just palaeontologists to ensure we are dating the rocks correctly, and this is where the chemists and physicists come in. Furthermore, you need lots of data to be sure you are getting as close as possible when assigning age to a rock or fossil, but luckily since the enlightenment scientists of many disciplines have been collecting data and we now have lots to compare and test against.

So we question and test the whole concept of deep time and geological context all the time, every time. It is a fascinating area to work in and the details are in flux all the time as we find new evidence that shifts the ages of formations and beds. These details will take many lifetimes to work out, and I don't know if we will ever resolve them fully as it's a mighty complex planet we live on, but we've go the big picture pretty much nailed and there's not any evidence that contradicts that in any meaningful way (feel free to prove me wrong here, show me some evidence), although never say never.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 07:42 AM

Stu. You appear to have the patience of a Saint. Our new religion needs a few saints. If you can call bingo we may even be able to speed up the canonisation.

I must be mellowing myself. Someone on another thread just trotted out that lack of belief is a belief in itself. I didn't bite. Probably the relaxation you get from toilets that are more comfortable than the ones back home.

Just to wade in on the science debate. You may need to clarify somewhat. I believe it was Ernest Rutherford who was attributed as saying that science consists of physics. The rest is just stamp collecting. Turns out it was said by others.

I'll get me bog roll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:18 AM

" ... it seems you would rather question observable repeatable, tested science than deep time dogma."

Ah, pete, do you mean "observable" "repeatable", "tested" "science" as "observed" "repeated" and "tested" by creation "scientists", and published exclusively in non-secular, creationist "scientific journals", by any chance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:27 AM

"Stu. You appear to have the patience of a Saint. Our new religion needs a few saints. If you can call bingo we may even be able to speed up the canonisation. "

I don't want to be a saint. I just love dinosaurs.

In his way, Pete is a great teacher. I really, truly, mean that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:41 PM

some one seems to be missing something somewhere stu, maybe you ,maybe me ,maybe both of us.
what I am saying is,- whatever discipline you choose you can only do observable, repeatable , testable, on the present.
science applied to the past cannot apply that method, because it IS past!
what is being done is interpretation of the data.
creationists use the same data and obviously interpret accordingly.
evolutionists do the same, as lewontin admitted " lest we allow a divine foot in the door"
what we do know from science [till such time as might in theory be shown otherwise] is abiogenesis is impossible, soft tissue should be gone long before MYO, and probability calculations of even a starter on life beginning are astronomical.
what you appear to do is say that you know dinos lived MYO ,so therefore soft tissue can last that long.
it seems to me more logical to say that there is no evidence that soft tissue could endure millions of years so the long age paradigm is wrong.
obviously when creationists say this , shimrod, they can point to testable, repeatable science - we know soft tissues decay, and I should think the rate of decay in even the most favourable scenarios point to a much shorter timeframe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:41 PM

pete... creationists do indeed interpret differently. They use it to support a hypothesis. Science tests and discards where necessary any hypothesis whilst creationism seeks to use whatever straws they can clutch in order to make ancient stories of mythical origin somehow appear physically possible.

Which is a shame because even when they were written, they were mainly there as stories to learn from, not history to learn.

I reckon if it weren't for creationist and other fundamental nonsense, religion may have more relevance to educated rational people. I also reckon the previous Archbishop of Canterbury knew it. .......


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:49 AM

Yes, Musket is right - to start by regarding your initial hypothesis as absolute truth, and dismissing any data which doesn't fit that hypothesis, is not the way that real science is done.

You keep banging on about not being able to do scientific experiments on the past (which of the works of the Rev. Dr. Teaparty Fundamentalist did you find that in?) but as Stu says, real scientists have brought to bear the formidable "methods [of] palaeontology, geology, biology, physics, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics etc etc" on questions about the past and their conclusions sound pretty convincing to me.

On the other hand, you and your creationist chums, can't prove that the biblical account of Creation is true - although you claim to have faith that it's true - but questions of faith have nothing to do with science. In addition you can't prove that God, the ultimate creator exists either; the vague, waffly statements about ineffability, that you have used in the past sound, however you try to phrase them, like dodging the question.

Finally, for the umpteenth time, if all of modern science is wrong (which I very, very seriously doubt) that still doesn't mean that the biblical account of Creation is the sole remaining explanation for life on Earth!


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:45 AM

Musket, Canterbury is head of the Anglican Church.
We have no truck with creationism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stu
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:02 AM

"evolutionists do the same, as lewontin admitted " lest we allow a divine foot in the door"

. . . and there it is. Except it isn't, as this quote (which appears widely on creationist websites but comes from an introduction to a Carl Saga book) is a misquote, and should be:

"...materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. "

What Lewontin is discussing here is the material nature of science, it's occasional counterintuitive results and not to allow supernatural explanations (which are artificial constructs the evidence os made to fit, as Shimrod said earlier).

"what you appear to do is say that you know dinos lived MYO ,so therefore soft tissue can last that long."

Strawman argument Pete. In the philosophical sense I do not KNOW dinosaurs lived millions of years ago, but from the scientific point of view the evidence we have accumulated very, very, very (keep adding 'verys' here for a minute or so) strongly indicates that they did and there is no convincing, evidence-based argument to the contrary. So I work from the hypothesis that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago, and the evidence is so strong go we do 'know' in this case. In the case of soft tissues, which you keep harping on about refer to my earlier post which discussed it at length. The evidence is published and available, I suggest you read the scientific arguments supporting and against the author's conclusion.


"it seems to me more logical to say that there is no evidence that soft tissue could endure millions of years so the long age paradigm is wrong."

But there is evidence. See reply above. Read the paper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:33 AM

Even bigger yawwwwwwwwns!!
You are dead right about being bored..not because I do not understand this crap you are trying to smugly baffle each other with..and the psuedo inttectual posturing you all insist on maintaining.
No phonys..it is with your genuine mind numbing regurgutation of the same old tired , theories..that is sending me to the land of nob..

How shaw..wizzjet, stringfettler, muskrat, seaman staynes and the rest of the soot juggling outsiders can claim to any tither of intellctual prowess is quite frankly beyond me..

I verilly believe that the crayons and dribbling thumb up bum syndrone is beyond even your limited capabillities..
I think we need to expose you all to a course of justin beiber cds in a concerted effort to make you all buck up..but there again..mebe not..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

You know, I used to introduce a mate on stage as the artist formally known as a crock of shit. Lost contact with him. Mind you, he is eloquent and can spell so I won't get excited.

Keith. I have yet to hear a vicar say God didn't create the heavens and earth. Christians speak of truth when referring to their big book of tales.

If you are embarrassed by that, take it up with the men in pointy hats. I can't help you I'm afraid.

pete. Have you heard of the whole of the Anglican movement not believing in the creation? Keith does claim to check his facts after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:08 PM

sending me to the land of nob..

Best Freudian slip I have seen for years. Well done, conc, I didn't that anyone of even your amazing intelligence would admit to being a resident of that fabled domain. I am pretty sure you denied being a (K)nobhead some time back. What has brought on this change of heart.

And if it is so boring, why do you keep coming back for more?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:15 PM

Haven't noticed you adding anything meaningful to the debate'concerened' - except, perhaps, a lot of insults and poor spelling.

Mind you, I can sympathise - I used to be dyslexic ... but now I'm not so shore ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:22 PM

Just noticed my lysdexia too - Missed out 'think' from 'didn't think that anyone...' That was a bit thoughtless :-)

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:54 PM

Few of us are as clever as we think we are.

But, I have to agree with GUEST about the pseudo-intellectual posturing, and the smug in-jokes.
I haven't been involved here....looks like a bad amateur attempt at Monty Python.....are you aware of how very silly you all look?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM

musket-the former archbishop was indeed on your side as far as origins were concerned. and maybe other things as well. when I saw him and dawkins in a so called debate on tv ,it was more like an agreefest!
seems fitting for one residing over a declining c of e.

of course all of modern science is not wrong, shimrod. but interpretations about the past can not all be correct. and where scientists interpret diverse conclusions from the same evidence , that is pretty obvious . not only does the researcher not come to the evidence with a totally open mind, but diverse conclusions are possible.
neither do you have any grounds for asserting that creationists ignore counter evidence. on the contrary it is evolutionism that evades the evidence ,as is evident when you don't address what we do know about things like bi-oogenesis and probability. appeals to authority does not answer it.
still asking for proof? I never said I can prove God or 6 day creation, and neither can you prove evolutionism ,but in light of what we do know from science, a creator is more consistent with the evidence IMO. Until such time as you grant that it is perhaps pointless trying to convince you who that creator is.
stu- you are quite right that I only gave part of the quote ,but you only gave part also. I believe the complete quote is rather confirming my point.
I suggest you read the evidence that counters yours.i regard it as self evident that soft tissue perishes long before millions of years. if you can cite otherwise lets have it, preferably in laymans terms.
and I don't recall you offering any evidence that soft tissue can last 70 million yr other that [begging the question] dinos are that old.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM

Well, what a shock! Ake and Conc are blood brothers! Tell you what, Ake. I doubt very much if he will have you. Out of interest though, if they are 'in jokes' how do you know what they are about and how have you measured their smugness?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,The artist formally known as concerened
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:28 PM

Akenton..I do not know you but I applaud your comments.I thought I was plowing a lone furrow with the self deluded great and the good.
Point is old chap they genuinly cant see how stupid they do look.
Maybe I am a little lacking in the spelling and grammer skills but I recognise that and do not need these big swinging dicks to point it out to me.I have been accused of insulting them.
.what in I ask?nothing I have said about these puffed up self important self elected post policemen and grammer inspectors are untruthfull..thank goodness some one else has pointed this out.
Untill the likes of shaw, wizzjet and the other psueds and soot juggling cake eaters get on board for the big humillity and compassion game, I will continue to chastise them..


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:15 PM

You have been ploughing a lone furrow for a long time, conc pal. It's pretty obvious. Nothing you have ever said has insulted anyone I suspect, because you have never said anything of any consequence. You call that chastising? Our cat could do better. Come on, surely you have more that soot juggling, cake eating and other obscure references in that mighty brain.

You can master managing a top French restaurant, rise to the ranks of Vice-Admiral and yet cannot grasp the simple concepts of your own language. No wonder your furrow remains lonely. Keep 'em coming. I have not laughed at with someone so much for so long for ages.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM

" ... but interpretations about the past can not all be correct. and where scientists interpret diverse conclusions from the same evidence , that is pretty obvious ..."

True! That's how science works. Nevertheless, as I've written before (many, many, many times) if all interpretations are wrong (which I doubt - by the way) then that DOES NOT imply that the biblical story of creation is true!

"I never said I can prove God or 6 day creation,..."

No, you didn't - I agree! But you have said, in the past, that the true nature of God is unknowable.

And changing the subject (as it were):

"Untill the likes of shaw, wizzjet and the other psueds and soot juggling cake eaters get on board for the big humillity and compassion game, I will continue to chastise them."

Oooohhh! Beat me beat me!! ... Or should that be, beet me, beet me!?


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:25 PM

Guest....Intelligence has nothing to do with spelling or grammar.

I have only a basic education, left school at fifteen to be a builder, but I see and understand, and am ruled by no ideology.

You appear to have things pretty well worked out concerning some of those who contribute to these threads.
Don't let them stop you putting in your "tuppence worth", they try to use their "education" to bully and insult.
Not a sure sign of intelligence in my eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:37 PM

Good grief. This gets better and better. The unimaginable encouraging the unintelligible. Cary on guys, you are doing a grand job :-)

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 05:47 PM

Eeeeeee. Sorry about the spulling mostike. The tears were streaming down and I couldn't type properly for the uncontrollable shaking...

What strange bedfellows. If it wasn't so bleedin' obvious it would make an excellent farce at any theatre. I am just wondering what will happen next. Are you sure you really are a woman, conc? Ake will never love you if you are a bloke you know.

:D


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