Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up

Subject: Lyr Req: a poaching song from these few words?
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:06 PM

A song came to mind the other day whilst musing. It was a poaching song that Gus Grenfell?? used to sing. It went like this:
"It happened on one Friday 2 more miself and Clarkie went out a pheasant hunting in a place we knew was naughty" Anybody know it?

Ray

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: a poaching song from these few words?
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 04:15 PM

Blimey Ray, there's a name from the past. Gus Grenfell. I haven't seen him since about 1964 or 65, when I sang at a club in Halifax. I'm trying to remember the name of the pub, but I can't. I do remember it was in a street or road called Luddenden Foot. Gus and his wife had just had a baby daughter whom they named Loveday.   Whatever happened to Gus? He was a well known musician at the time. If anybody reading this knows him, please say Hello from me. Roy Harris.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: a poaching song from these few words?
From: GUEST,Fantum
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 07:03 PM

Hello Ray
I have to confess the line about Clarkie did ring a bell and this came up from the DT. It was one of Dave Verril's songs.

Regards Ray


ROW-DOW-DOW

If you will listen for a while a story I will tell you,
And if you don't attention pay I'm sure I can't compel you,
But as you've asked me for to sing I'd better start at once,
I'll tell you how I got six weeks and my mate got two months.

With me, Row-dow-dow,
Fal-the-diddle-loddie,
With me, Row-dow-dow.

It happened on one Monday night, two more myself and Clarkie,
Went out pheasant shooting in a place we knew was narky,
Three keepers rushed upon the spot when guns began to rattle,
And our two mates they done a bunk and left us to the battle.

We tried our best to get away but vain was our endeavour,
We wouldn't have been taken if we all had stuck together,
But both of us was captured and then taken to the lock-ups,
And charged before the magistrate for shooting Goschen's cock-ups.

At ten o'clock next morning to the Town Hall we was taken,
We thought our case would settled be but we were quite mistaken,
For we were both remanded 'til the fourteenth of November,
And if you read the Croyden Times I 'spect you will remember.

When our remand was at an end for Croyden we came steering,
And soon before a magistrate we stood to have our hearing,
The case it was so very clear it didn't want much trying,
And when our time it was note down our wives they started crying.

We asked them to propose a fine but that they would not sanction,
So then we knew our residence would be a public mansion,
The magistrates to me I own they acted like a neighbour,
They let me off with six weeks, Clarkie got two months hard labour.

On the twenty-fourth of December my time it did expire,
When I got out I had some scran that's what I did require,
And when I had a drink of beer I really felt quite merry,
But Clarkie don't get out until the middle of January.

Trad: (Traveller?)
From Jim Eldon / Isla St.Clair
@English @poach @trial @Outlaw
filename[ ROWDOWDW
AG
apr97

Subject: RE: Req: poaching song from these few words?-RowDowDow
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 03:04 AM

Roud has 16 entries for this song.

Subject: RE: Req: poaching song from these few words?-RowDowDow
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 03:16 AM

Well thanks to all for this information and song lyrics!

Ray

Subject: RE: Req: poaching song from these few words?-RowDowDow
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:12 AM

I've sent this message once already. Buggar me if it didn't land. Let's try again.

It's usually called Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up, or some similar title, and you can find it on the following releases:

Musical Traditions. MTCD 320. Here's Luck to a Man: Gypsy Songs & Music from South East England. Shooting Spark's Cocks Up. Jasper Smith.

Topic. 12T 286 LP. Ye Subjects of England. SHOOTING GOSHEN'S COCKS UP. George Maynard.

Topic. TSCD. 672D. Voice of the People_I'm A Romany Rai_Songs by Southern English Gypsy Traditional Singers. The Bold Poachers Wally Fuller         

Musical Traditions. MTCD401-2. Down the Cherry Tree. Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up. George Maynard.

There's doubtless others. EG I'd be surprised if Dan Quinn hasn't recorded it at some time. But that's what I've got for now.

Subject: RE: Req: poaching song from these few words?-RowDowDow
From: kendall
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 07:36 AM

It reminds me of a line in Arthur McBride.

Subject: Lyr Add: SHOOTING GOSHEN'S COCKS UP (G Maynard)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 05 Jul 20 - 03:07 PM

I found a transcription at mustrad.org.uk, but I also listened repeatedly to a recording and made several corrections. Here's what I ended up with. Note that this version has 3 verses that are missing from the DT version that Fantum posted above.


SHOOTING GOSHEN'S COCKS UP
As recorded by George Maynard on "Ye Subjects of England" (1976)

If you'll listen for a while, a story I will tell you,
And if you don't attention pay, I'm sure I can't compel you;
But as you've asked me for to sing, I'd better start at once.
I'll tell you how I got six weeks and my mate got two months.

With me row-dow-dow,
Fal-the-riddle-oddy,
With me row-dow-dow.

Now, it happened on one Monday night: two more, myself and Clarkie
Went out a-pheasant shooting in a place we knew was narky.
Three keepers rushed upon the spot when guns began to rattle,
And our two mates they'd done a bunk and left us to the battle.

We tried our best to get away, but vain was our endeavour.
We should not have been taken if we all had stuck together,
But me and Clarkie was captured and taken to the lock-up,
And charged before inspector Irish for shooting Goshen's cocks up.

At ten o'clock next morning to the town hall we was taken.
We thought our case would settled be, but we were quite mistaken.
We was put back upon remand 'til the fourteenth of November,
And if you've read the Croydon Times, I 'spect you will remember.

[When our] remand was at an end; for Croydon we came steering,
And soon before the magistrates we stood to have our hearing.
Our case it was so very clear, it did not want much trying.
When our time it was knocked down to us, our wives they started crying.

Now we asked them to propose a fine but that they would not sanction.
Then soon we knew our residence would be the public mansion.
The magistrates to me, I'll own, they acted like a neighbour.
They let me off with six weeks, but Clark two months hard labour.

Now four o'clock that afternoon, for Wandsworth jail we started.
Our friends were there to see us off; they all seemed broken-hearted.
Whilst rattling up to Wandsworth jail, our mind received a bewildering
About our future prospects of our wives and little children.

At Holloway, our clothes were searched and ev'rything was taken
Away from us, the warders thought, but they were quite mistaken;
For as I paced my lonely cell, I could not help but smile
To think I had deceived them; I'd got 'baccer all the while.

The first four weeks I was in jail, they put me grinding flour,
Likewise pumping water onto a lofty tower.
My strength it quickly did decrease; I thought it rather cruel
To make a man work harder on brown bread and water gruel.

On the twenty-fourth of December, my time it did expire.
When I got out, I had some scran; that's what I did require;
And when I had a drink of beer, I really felt quite merry,
But my mate he don't get out until the middle of January.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jul 20 - 03:16 PM

Jim Dixon -
I learned the words from one of the Pop Maynard recordings of this song and I am pretty sure he sings - Verse 2 Line 4 -

And charged before inspector Harris for shooting Goshen's cocks up.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jul 20 - 06:06 PM

The tune is of course the ubiquitous 'Bow, wow, wow' utilised ad nauseam in the early 19th century and originating in a satyrical song about traders being portrayed as different breeds of dogs which I have somewhere. It's usually easy to spot when this tune is intended, with the repeated 3 syllables bow wow wow; now, now ,now etc.

Probably the best known song is the 'Drummer and the Cook' we all sang at school.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 05 Jul 20 - 07:54 PM

Lord Goshun was director of the Bank of England so obviously he couldn't afford to lose any pheasants.
The song is evidently a true story, and refers to Harry Holman who wrote it upon release from Holloway, which was a male prison before it was a female one.
Holman would copy out the song a knock it out for the price of a pint, or a loaf of bread in his local pub, which is how the song spread in the area. Both Holman and Maynard were well known in the the Gypsy community. Narkie is a slang word for dangerous or unlucky. The Gypsy community use a lot of 19th century (or earlier) slang as well as Romany. As an example the Gypsy word for a young woman is Rackly, however if she were a non Gypsy she would be called a Bewer which is 18th/19th century slang.
It's the same with Narkie. It's entered into English as bad tempered.
So I know the song as 'Inspector Harris' and Holloway Prison. I think that's what Pop Maynard sings. I sing it when to mood strikes me. When I sing it with the Gypsy Folk I tend to use a few more of their words Starry (starripen) for prison, Bori Rye for Magistrate etc. I love the idea of Harry Holman selling the story of his imprisonment and starvation. Its two fingers up to the system, and surviving against the odds. Sing on!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 02:21 AM

Hi Roy, that pub near Luddenden Foot would have been The Grove at Brearley set back a bit from the road, I think I was there. Long since shut down.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 04:40 AM

Hi Dave, Unfortunately our friend Roy Harris, is no longer with us. He would have appreciated your post, and often chatted about his early memories.
kind regards to you.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 06:19 AM

Wow, Nick
That's fascinating!
Not many people know that! Have you got a date for the event and for the writing?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 06:45 AM

Thanks Nick I thought it was a recent post I was replying to, obviously not.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:44 AM

Our friend and founder of Tigerfolk/Traditions at the Tiger died 9th February 2016 and there was a considerable thread on here at the time (Obit Roy Harris 9th Feb 2016) should anyone wish to catch up.
Coincidentally one of the ex - residents at the above club sings Row Dow Dow, Corinne Male who occasionally comes on here might have more information as to her source of the song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 08:50 AM

Sorry Nick. But it was Fred Holman, not the singer Harry Holman, who composed the song. This is my note to the song from a Musical Traditions CD:

Better known as Shooting Goshen's Cock-Ups, the incident happened on the Goshen Estate near New Addington in Surrey, and the song was composed by Fred Holman, of Tatsfield in Surrey; who also wrote the song Patsy Flanaghan (Roud 16632), both of which Pop Maynard used to sing (Musical Traditions MTCD309-10). The tune comes from an earlier song, Bow, Wow, Wow or The Barking Barber, which was popular in the 1780s. It was sufficiently well-known to be parodied in Alice in Wonderland.

Fred Holman would write out the words for the price of a pint - so, obviously, the song developed over time. Here's a 'complete' version of his text:

Oh if you'll listen for a while, a story I will tell you,
And if you don't attention pay, I'm sure I can't compel you,
But since you've asked me for to sing I'd better start at once
And tell you how I got six weeks and my mate got two months.

Chorus:
With me row dow, dow, dow,
Fol de riddle oddy,
With me row dow, dow.

It happened on one Monday night; myself, two more, and Clarky,
Went out a-pheasant shooting in a place we knew was narky;*
Three keepers rushed upon the spot when the guns began to rattle,
And my two mates they done a bunk and left us to the battle.

We tried our best to get away, but vain was our endeavour,
We should not have been taken if we had all stuck together,
But me and Clark was captured and taken to the lock-up,
And charged before the magistrate for shooting Goshen's cocks up.*

At ten o'clock next morning to the Town Hall we was taken;
We thought our case could settled be, but we was quite mistaken;
We was put back upon remand 'til the fourteenth of November,
And if you read the Croydon Times, I'm sure you will remember.

When our remand was at an end, for Croydon we came steering,
And soon before the magistrate we stood to have our hearing;
Our case it was so very clear, it did not want much trying,
When our time it was knocked down to us, our wives they started crying.

Now we asked them to propose a fine, but that they would not sanction,
Then soon we knew our residence would be in a public mansion;
The magistrates to me I'll own, they acted like a neighbour,
They let me off with six weeks, but give Clark two months' hard labour.

At four o'clock that afternoon for Wandsworth Jail we started,
Our friends were there to see us off, they all seemed broken-hearted;
Whilst rattling up to Wandsworth Jail our minds seemed to bewildering
About our future station and our wives and little children.

At Holloway our clothes were searched and everything was taken
Away from us, the warders thought, but they were quite mistaken,
For as I paced my lonely cell, I couldn't help but smile,
To think I had deceived 'em; I'd got baccy all the while.

Now the first four weeks I was in jail they put me grinding flour,
Likewise a-pumping water, boys, into a lofty tower;
My strength it quickly did decrease; I thought it rather cruel,
To make a man work hard all day on brown bread water gruel.

Now the twenty-fourth of December, my time it did expire;
When I got out I had some scran, that's what I did require,
And when I'd had a drink of beer, I really felt quite merry,
To think my mate he don't come out 'til the middle of January!

* narky - having narks (keepers) there.
* cocks up - almost always sung as cock-ups.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 06 Jul 20 - 03:57 PM

Got the wrong Holman! That's how memory works.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 01:11 PM

I learnt the song back in the 60's from the singing of Ken Stubbs who collected it from George Maynard. I used to pick up Harry Holman to take him along to sessions back then and it was certainly not a song that he ever sang. Hi Mike I don't think we have met since those early days!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST,Dave Toye
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 02:46 PM

I learnt the song back in the 60's from the singing of Ken Stubbs who collected it from George Maynard. I used to pick up Harry Holman to take him along to sessions back then and it was certainly not a song that he ever sang. Hi Mike I don't think we have met since those early days!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 02:59 AM

Hi Dave, those were the days, when singers like Harry Holman, Louise Fuller & George Spicer could be heard every week. I have some great memories of that time, as, I'm sure, you do as well. All the best. Mike.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 12:02 PM

One of only two folk songs I know of that mention Croydon.
And in fact the other one isn't really a folk song, it was a broadside with a credited author, 'All Hail this Grand Day - the Croydon Canal'.

Though I imagine there are probably some broadsides

Some good tunes titled after Croydon though, 'Croydon Fair' being one

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Row Dow Dow / Shooting Goshen's Cocks Up
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 04:05 PM

Oh, how we Croydon the night that we left....

I'll get me coat!