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BS: Why I am gone
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:59 PM Musket, you and your fellow hateful ranters are entertaining each other - the rest of us do not find that entertaining at all, and not convincing either. Each of you is demolishing his own respectability, not anybody else's, however deserving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 25 Sep 13 - 12:09 PM One thing I should add to my criteria: To convey the impression of being civilized, it also helps to read messages carefully before responding. Otherwise the authors may feel obliged to restate and explain their point unnecessarily. (Many messages do not deserve reading carefully, but all the less they deserve a reply.) Sorting posters into drawers and writing "blindly" to a whole drawer is very bad style. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,MikeL2 Date: 25 Sep 13 - 11:26 AM Hi Well said Eliza. If people don't like something posted here all they have to do is go to next posting - easy eh ?? I do enjoy most people's posts here - even when their views don't agree with my own. Just ignore the the trolls....they will soon disappear. Regards MikeL2 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: kendall Date: 25 Sep 13 - 11:02 AM No one has a right to tell another that your opinion is wrong. The most you can say is, "I have a different opinion." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: MGM·Lion Date: 25 Sep 13 - 11:00 AM But R Bridge's definition of those who, he states in his last post, "should be opposed by decent people here and in the physical world [and] vilified and excoriated here", I know from experience to comprise merely those who have to barefaced gall and impudence to happen not to share his own jejune & fatuous political slant. Because I don't concur unquestioningly, 100%, with all his oh-so-predictable left-oriented political views, he has often denounced me as one "who would empower the oppression of the less fortunate, of the less violent", and stated explicitly that I deserve, ('have earned' as he once charmingly expressed it), rudeness, obloquy, and abuse as such a face-grinding oppressor. And then, like as so many of such orientation (horny-handed sons of toil like him, slaving away in solicitors' offices), he proceeds to strike conceited airs of moral superiority for being so supremely enlightened! Pathetic... ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Musket sans charity Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:57 AM And that's saying something Bridge... Don't just mention the ones the other side of the pond, please try to be inclusive and include Scotland eh? Grishka. If you want to get a point over in one post, that is difficult for many, yourself included. There have been a few posts that I have reacted to where you have then further clarified and yes, on a couple of occasions I feel I had got hold of the wrong end of the stick. Sometimes, a point needs explaining further. I am civilised. Or at least I can tie my own shoelaces, which is not a bad measure of the word. Whether I wish to debate or confront depends on the view posted. If we are not careful, we will join Akenhateon in his mindless pit that he at last acknowledges exists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:26 AM Eliza asserts that these expressing unacceptable opinins here are not invading our lives. But they are. They are proponents of the attempts at oppression that are so prevalent in the USA, by the lunatic right, by so-called libertarians, by fundagelicals, who would empower the oppression of the less fortunate, of the less violent, of women, of homosexuals. What they propose would damage and should be opposed by decent people here and in the physical world. They should be vilified and excoriated here. Mither is too charitable to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:10 AM Musket, I do not impose anything, I just describe what sort of behaviour seems civilized to me. If you prefer to be perceived as an "onanist" (cf. the other thread on the same topic), you are not affected at all: proceed as you did before. If you feel to be perfectly civilized and my observation to be wrong, you are welcome to argue. I avoid using nouns like "troll" (or "thief", "liar" etc.), since they suggest invariability. For my usage of the word "trolling" I gave definitions (conforming with Internet-savvy dictionaries) and arguments; you are welcome to challenge either, if you are specific. Once per thread: this obviously refers to any single point. We should strive to make it clear and concise in a single message, but sometimes we fail that and need more than one post to elaborate or explain. What I am criticizing is repetitions for the sole reason of having the last word; this is not only rude but also pointless (- Mudcat threads being mistaken for online chats whose older posts would descend into oblivion). Enjoy your effluvium. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: akenaton Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:43 AM If we do not stop it, the BS forum will die, or become a mindless pit. If there are to be subjects which "must not be discussed", that is for the site owner or moderators to decide upon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:22 AM Some folks are nice and courteous who believe in a God, some are the same that don't believe in such, and some of those who are not sure are share the same characteristics. Then, there are the opposite types in all said groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:15 AM For what it's worth here's my feeble contribution:- I can't for the life of me understand why people get so hurt, incensed, upset and mortally offended by some words on a computer screen. If one is getting hot under the collar, turn the darned thing off. It's not as if the posters are knocking on the front door of your house or banging on the window pane. They don't even know who you are or where you live. I'm very saddened for example by these recent cases of youngsters committing suicide because of 'cyber bullying'. Why couldn't they just stop visiting that site and look at something else? I've read some nasty things on Mudcat, but I haven't ground my teeth down to the gums in shock. It would be nice if folk restrained themselves a bit. But there's no need to get your knickers in a twist or leave completely. I really like most of the people on here, and enjoy visiting Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Musket chastised? Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:49 AM No not really. Ok. Once per thread. There is no God. You have one opportunity to prove me wrong then you have to shut up. Tell you what, here's what I demand you do, as you use italics to underline your own demands. You have to put up with as many posts as it takes to get over a message. Some people try many times and whilst I may or may not agree with them, I accept that they are trying, bless 'em. You see, what you totally fail to understand is that your use of the word "troll" seems linked to your arbitrary terms of posting that you seek to impose. In other words, anybody who doesn't dance to your tune is a troll. Fine. Excuse me whilst I fart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:31 AM Abuse is abuse, and trolling is trolling, no matter to what extent the objects deserve criticism. This is how I understand Joe's message, not as a statement about the content of any such dispute. Civilized persons who wish to counteract propaganda have the following options:
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Musket sans jerkiness Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:45 AM I love delicious irony. Hence I am still giggling at the contribution by Jack the Sailor. Joe Offer has sadly disappointed me though. Yes, you included Jack the Sailor in your condemnation and perhaps in that you feel it balanced. The sad part is though that the origins of the threads you don't like stoop to a low level when someone who is religious sneers at those who either profess otherwise (atheists to give them a title I suppose) and the vast majority who don't entertain religion but don't go scrabbling for an alternative. (As atheist as a word implies anti theist I doubt the majority of people could be arsed enough to give it any thought. ) The rise of religious threads lately seems to fit in with the push by Christian groups around the world to rally against the increasing irrelevance they have in society and the blunt silly attempts lately to come over as persecuted. The day I see any religion embrace equality I might just be prepared to debate at their level. Until that day, I happily look down on those who use their faith as a sanctimonious weapon. And as that doesn't describe the good guy Joe Offer in general, that's why I am saddened by his post above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Noreen Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:35 PM Whatever your opinion, on whatever subject, it is possible to discuss it and exchange opinions with others, with courtesy and politeness, accepting the possibility that YOUR opinion is not the only one that is valid. When I first came to the Mudcat Café, (13 years ago?!) at a very fragile time in my life, I felt myself surrounded by like-minded, warm friendship- it felt safe here. Sadly, the openness and welcoming nature of the site has attracted those who don't respect it and who have made it a far less pleasant place to come. I still do come here, for old times sake, and like someone said above (Will Fly?) it's OUR place still- but I don't feel safe here like I used to and I'm far more wary about posting anything at all personal. It's so nice to hear from all the people who aren't here, though. That's special. Well said, Jeri. To absent friends *clink* :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Jeri Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:31 PM I have to agree with Joe that those who are fanatic on the subject of religion make me not want to bother trying to discuss it. Likewise the fanatics on any particular subject. You can't have a decent conversation when one or several crusading whack jobs have their personal volume set to 10 all of the time. Religion, politics, human rights-- it's not worth it to try to be heard in the midst of all the figurative shouting and frantic post-bombing. One thing though, trying to direct what happens here is futile. Nobody cares, except maybe a couple people who know you. And the things you can't stand are things someone else loves, and they won't back off simply because it bothers you. This is me being cynical. It's so nice to hear from all the people who aren't here, though. That's special. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Sep 13 - 08:50 PM So, Joe Offer, a bigot is someone who doesn't entirely go along with your cosy and unreal view of a life that cuddles up with religion. Well here's what I think. You're the bigot. You're the guy who "educates" his children within a religion that they were born into by pure chance, then makes a ton of excuses along the lines of giving them get-outs if they want them (which you probably hope they won't want). You're the guy who shuts a part of his mind off to evidence because you think there's "a greater truth". Actually, I could do a deal with you: stop calling me a bigot because I have the temerity to question your religion in a somewhat forthright way, and I'll stop calling you a bigot for embracing delusion and passing it on to the next generation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:28 PM Joe Offer "Life involves all types" I suspect there are a still retro-folks who still believe that people are converted by silencing them, through a variety of means (some approaches may seem less gentile than others). An odd concept that, in my observation, has rarely worked anywhere over the longer-term (and most likely has also been mostly ineffective over the shorter-term). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:11 PM I have to say that Jack the Sailor and Steve Shaw and a few others have made it absolutely impossible to speak about the subject of religion with and degree of intelligence or civility. So, I guess I've written that subject off as "bigot territory." See what happened when they joined this thread? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Jack the Sailor Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:40 PM I don't see the point of the anti-religious jihad that a few folks here engage in. You may have a dislike of the subject. You are entitled to express your opinion. But do you have to bark and drool like a Pavlovian pitbull every time religion is mentioned? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Former guest from beyond BS Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:47 PM Hello, anyone "home" in here? "Hello!" I'm just stealthly "looking back in" to see if anyone is also "looking back in to see me", or if anyone notices I am gone (or here) - or that I am still kinda here (not). And, btw, I legally reserve the right to look back in, if I feel like doing so in the future (not wishing to exhaust or limit any future change of mind). It's mighty lonely out here in the real bs-less world. *Disclaimer, not intended to reflect on any person, or seity, real or not |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: kendall Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:27 PM Mr. Happy, I thought I explained that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Elmore Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:59 PM Even the trolls have been nice to me on occasion. BB once called me a witty fool, or something like that. What more could one ask for? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:50 PM The problem with being a member of an elite inner circle is the constantly festering insecurity and paranoia that there may be an even more elite secret inner inner circle to which you have not been invited...... .. it's actually quite a comfort to just accept you are unwanted & forever excluded.. it's quite nice out here... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Amos Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:26 PM I guess in order to resent an "Inner Circle" you have to see yourself as outcast or outside. No-one at Mudcat ever made me feel anything but welcome, and as a result I have never suspected there was an inner circle. Of course, I almost always try to mind my manners in case there IS one, silently watching, but so far, not a peep out of them. I have observed a great number of strong friendships, but nothing circular or hidden. Maybe it is the case that in order to see and resent Inner Circles, one has to be a bit of a sphincter oneself. Ya think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: MGM·Lion Date: 24 Sep 13 - 11:55 AM "I must have superlative taste in subject lines. I cannot recall encountering any rudeness on the Mudcat." .,,. Really, Joe F. Why, what a lucky fellow. I was once accused by someone who objected to something I had posted of wearing an ill-fitting colostomy bag. I don't so I wasn't too bothered. Still, I should say it was a bit rude, wouldn't you? However, same time, within a day or two, someone else posted to me "Long may you continue to post to Mudcat". Can't please everyone. As I summed up on insert on 'Me & Mudcat' I was invited to contribute to last 'This Is Us' CD collection, "'Rough with smooth', as they say" ~~ which I note a point similarly made by one of early posts on this thread, by G-Force. OTOH, if you really can't stand the heat... ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:54 AM Bloody hell Al. If folk music is your fantasy I suggest eating cheese before going to bed. My fantasies certainly don't involve the upstairs room of a draughty pub that smells of cat with an audience who quietly tell you in the beer break that you sang it wrong. If that's fantasy, I must be living the dream! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Big Al Whittle Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:48 AM I did one of these - I am gone forever things - after a tata with Dave Hanson and Diane easby. The thing is. Mudcat is unique. Its for us. The deaths of our friends are notified here. The latest bits and pieces on the scene are alluded to. If you're in a lather about someone - like I am with blind Lemon Jefferson at the moment - theres always someone to help out.... I can't see anything ever being as good as Mudcat. It can be hurtful and offensive. people say things out loud that they would whisper in real life. I guess some people have a fantasy about folk music which reality can't fulfil - so they balls on about it, like Mussolini addressing his adoring fans. Its an easy trap to fall into. We're all entitled to say and think malevolent and subversive thoughts to our mates. But if you told Mussolini to be less extreme when he was in full flow - the results would always be predictable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Backwoodsman Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:40 AM When someone chooses to sneer at and insult someone else purely on the basis of that other person's religious faith or lack of it, it says far more about the sneerer and insulter than it does about the object of his or her vilification. And not in a good way, IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Ebbie Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:33 AM Oh, fellas? I believe TIA is a man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: SINSULL Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:14 AM HMMMM Four posts since her dramatic exit. Guess she exited to another thread. ???????????????????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Mr Happy Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:07 AM Bye-ee! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Sep 13 - 10:02 AM Just my thoughts, Mr H. If you are going, then go and don't let the door slam. If you are staying, shut the door and keep the heat in :-) Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Mr Happy Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:59 AM I don't get why anyone announces that they're going? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:51 AM Yes the website is of a secular nature until someone raises a 'Religious' subject. Raising a religious subject does not alter the mix of people who come here. You don't get to ringfence your conversations just because they happen to be about your religion, any more that I should expect to be able to ringfence any of my pet topics. I can't rattle on about atheism without expecting to get a good kicking here, and I'm more than happy about that, so why should you expect to be wrapped in cotton wool? Anyway, I'd say it all depended on the manner in which you express your views. And never, ever ask me for my prayers, even if you're lumping me in with everyone else here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,kendall Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:19 AM It's well to remember that, with one minor exception, the universe is made up of others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 24 Sep 13 - 09:00 AM Simply stating one's honest opinion, however controversial, is not an act of trolling in itself. (Some opinions go against other general rules, e.g. being racist etc.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,kendall Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:26 AM I can understand why good people leave, they have no stomach for nastiness, and I understand why they announce that they are leaving. Other good people want to know, that's all. I've thought about it myself when I've been called a liar and a fool, but, no one has the power to influence my actions. As the saying goes, "Your opinion of me is none of my business." People who don't even know me; if they decide they don't like me, it's their problem, not mine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: VirginiaTam Date: 24 Sep 13 - 06:44 AM Speaking as an atheist/humanist I don't understand why is it so difficult to accord each individual the dignity one expects for oneself? It is quite simple and the right thing to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:47 AM When you say personally attacked, do you mean you were physically crucified or fed to lions or somebody just didn't give your superstition the respect you feel it demands? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:37 AM Steve you state >>>>> If you air your "Christian views" on a website which is basically of a secular nature, which is your inalienable right, yes you can expect to be subjected to opposing points of view, put fairly directly at times. You call it nasty, I say tomayto. You do not own the default position of humanity.<<<<<< Generally I believe my Christian views were aired on threads which were discussing religion and beliefs. I gave my personal views and was attacked personally for giving them....... There are those who do not consider that it is my right to do that and most of those are happy to air their views about people who so believe without expecting any reply............... Yes the website is of a secular nature until someone raises a 'Religious' subject... If you look back over time you will find that many of the threads with religious titles/themes in them have been started by anti-religious members ( or guests) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Will Fly Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:16 AM I realise that I don't expect anyone to sway me from my views, so why should I feel compelled to convince others their opinions, beliefs are incorrect? Absolutely. Which is why I can hardly be arsed to go "below the line" these days, unless there's a fun thread or an interesting technical topic to read about. The value of Mudcat for me is up above the line - music and stuff related to music. That's primarily why I'm here and why I only occasionally contribute to the BS section. Much of what's discussed down here - to me, I stress - is a waste of space. Others seem to get their rocks off on it - good luck to 'em. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Steve Shaw Date: 24 Sep 13 - 05:11 AM In the past (or even in the present, depending on which country you had the accident to be born in), lusty opponents of religion (not necessarily all religions, of course, often just the one in vogue at the time) were very likely to fail to live out their natural lifespan. These days we just get called trolls. At least we've learned how to keep our heads (in more ways than one). If you air your "Christian views" on a website which is basically of a secular nature, which is your inalienable right, yes you can expect to be subjected to opposing points of view, put fairly directly at times. You call it nasty, I say tomayto. You do not own the default position of humanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Georgiansilver Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:20 AM I personally come here to gain knowledge of Folk Music/singing worldwide and enjoy doing so. I used to get involved in conversations in BS, quite regularly at one point, but came under attack for my Christian views by some quite nasty characters. (No names mentioned as some are still here and they know who they are). My attitude is 'If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen' Read what you want to read, comment on what you want to comment on and ignore personal attacks or detrimental comments. Some people here are quite genuine and give a good account of themselves in the things they write and the opinions they put forward..... the rest are here too! Live with it or don't come here! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: VirginiaTam Date: 24 Sep 13 - 04:19 AM TIA - I am sorry your experience on Mudcat has become unpleasant. I too felt this for sometime. But now, having grown up a little in the last few years, I realise that I don't expect anyone to sway me from my views, so why should I feel compelled to convince others their opinions, beliefs are incorrect? That would be very pompous of me. I glean the good from Mudcat, and be sure there is so much more good than there is bad. It just takes a conscious effort to look for it and to ignore the rest. All the best, Tam p.s. Guest - If you truly value your opinion then you should not fear to post under your (former) Mudcat ID. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST Date: 24 Sep 13 - 02:55 AM I notice that those who talk of going either don't go anyway or use it as a threat to get people agreeing with them instead of questioning them. Nobody owns this forum, except Max and he merely hosts it. It is what it is. We have our share of nice people, not so nice people, burnt out hippies, closet bigots, beards, brown shirts, liberals, radicals and point scorers. People will come and go. If you go, do so. Don't bother looking for people pleading. That shows you to be the narcissist I should have added to the above. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Gurney Date: 24 Sep 13 - 12:21 AM Inner circle? I never noticed one! There are prolific posters, and there are plenty of posters with a long lifetime's experience, and prepared to share that accrued wisdom. Often the same people. The moderators don't post much. Some years ago, I decided that if I wouldn't argue with an axe-grinder or a bigot in a bar, then I wouldn't argue with him or her here. I feel that this decision has reduced the incidence of ear-steam for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 23 Sep 13 - 10:49 PM Yeah ...over a decade ago I once spouted similar threats...but returned just like "our zit zit." In the end ...what other place would tolerate thee, me, or her? Sincerely, Gargoyle Nunc lento sonitu dicunt, Morieris |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: Joe_F Date: 23 Sep 13 - 09:33 PM I must have superlative taste in subject lines. I cannot recall encountering any rudeness on the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why I am gone From: GUEST,Stim Date: 23 Sep 13 - 09:25 PM Not actually, Bobert. There are quite a number on the left end of the spectrum who like to toss around verbal abuse, as well. One school of thought runs that reasoned and logical discussions don't draw the sort of attention that crack-rants do. Another school of thought is that posters insult and abuse because they don't actually know enough about the subject to actually discuss it, or care enough to learn about it. Both schools have merit. |