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BS: Religion, which is the best one?

GUEST,Just a passing thought 28 Oct 13 - 08:08 AM
Bill D 25 Oct 13 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,tele tubbie 25 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 25 Oct 13 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Just a passing thought 25 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM
GUEST,Musket sans the good professor 25 Oct 13 - 04:32 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 25 Oct 13 - 04:23 AM
Joe Offer 25 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Oct 13 - 01:11 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 24 Oct 13 - 05:55 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 13 - 04:32 PM
Joe Offer 24 Oct 13 - 04:27 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 24 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 13 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Musket 24 Oct 13 - 12:54 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 13 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Just a passing thought 24 Oct 13 - 11:21 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 24 Oct 13 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Just a passing thought 24 Oct 13 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed 24 Oct 13 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,Grishka 24 Oct 13 - 05:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Oct 13 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 24 Oct 13 - 03:44 AM
GUEST,Musket getting nostalgic 23 Oct 13 - 06:13 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Oct 13 - 04:26 PM
GUEST 23 Oct 13 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Musket the serious III 23 Oct 13 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,The good professor 23 Oct 13 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Oct 13 - 02:56 AM
kendall 22 Oct 13 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Just a passing thought 22 Oct 13 - 07:35 AM
Joe Offer 22 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM
Mr Happy 22 Oct 13 - 06:08 AM
Joe Offer 22 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,Just a passing thought 22 Oct 13 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 20 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM
MGM·Lion 20 Oct 13 - 09:28 AM
GUEST,Musket curious 20 Oct 13 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Ed T 20 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM
MGM·Lion 20 Oct 13 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Musket evolving slowly 20 Oct 13 - 05:03 AM
Joe Offer 20 Oct 13 - 02:10 AM
Joe Offer 20 Oct 13 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Oct 13 - 01:14 AM
GUEST,Ed T 19 Oct 13 - 08:47 PM
Joe Offer 19 Oct 13 - 08:16 PM
GUEST,Grishka 19 Oct 13 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,pete from seven stars link 19 Oct 13 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Just a passing thought
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 08:08 AM

it Was interesting the amount of folk that bought his book


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 11:02 AM

Grishka also said: " However, those who hope to strip off their unwanted identity simply by declaring themselves, say, Tibetan Buddhists, are likely to fail miserably."

I knew a woman who 'asserted' that she was Buddist, but was actually trying to act as a Jain..(opposed to killing or eating ANYTHING which might have a soul-like component.) We had long discussions with her about eating eggs that were fertilized. She hated roaches, but would not spray or squish them... she'd scoop them up in a towel and throw them out in the snow!
"But Pat," we'd say,"How do you think they'll survive out there?" "Oh, then It's not MY worry...I just want them out of my kitchen, what God does with them is his business." She just kinda grafted on a few ideas and tried to justify her approach in awkward ways.

The best reading I ever saw on by someone who had tried several religions..then discarded acutal 'belief' was "Faith of a Heretic" by Walter Kaufmann- former Philosophy prof. at Princeton

He understood what 'belief' means and the historical perspectives involved. There is an entire book in PDF... but read that on page to get the idea.

He also wrote "Critique of Religion and Philosophy"


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,tele tubbie
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM

Lar, lar lar lar lar lar lar lar lar

Why did that Chris de Burgh pick on me ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:14 AM

Chris de Burgh made a few bob from the idea though?

Von Daniken failed to recognise the entertainment value of his idea. Mind you, science fiction novelists were grateful of the concept. Spawned a veritable mountain of pulp fiction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Just a passing thought
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:06 AM

Just a passing thought, where does the ideas of Erich Von Daniken fit in with this debate then, I know that he has been discredited by a whole host of people since he came out with the idea of God being a Spaceman, but what do you lot think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket sans the good professor
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:32 AM

Thanks for the analysis Goofus. The cheque is in the post.

I would like to book some more of your analysis if that's alright.   Perhaps my agent could discuss a price package with you.

Are you ready boy?

Woof!

You have a good bargaining discussion with ol'Goofus.

Woof! Woof! Grrr.   Woof! Slurp.......

Stop it boy! You don't have any! The vet lopped them off, remember?

Slurp slurp grrrrrrr. Slurp.

Sorry about that Goofus. You don't sem to be high priority for him. .....


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:23 AM

My beef all along has been one of an institution failing to remain relevant to an increasingly questioning public. The rise of fundamentalism, in many religions, is to my mind a reflection of losing control so combating it with assertion.

Why should I care? Because a grown up mature function would be an asset but the continuing out of step with society approach of many religions hastens their demise. Even a non member like me would think that sad. I support a multi denominational chaplaincy team in hospital care and see them as tangible healthcare provision. Considering the vast majority of our patients do not tick any specific religion box, their supportive role is, once explained, welcomed by many. It helps hasten recovery or make palliative care more comfortable.

But whilstever leaders of religious organisations polarise or abuse their place in society, the social care element, hard wired in everyone, including we cynics, will be vulnerable to being lost. And that would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:08 AM

Musket sez: The position of the Catholic Church in offering sanctuary to vicars who exhibit misogyny is a stain on the concept of following a set faith.

I guess I'd agree, Musket. Pope Benedict's policy of opening the doors of the Catholic Church to discontented Anglican misogenists and homophobes, makes me very nervous. So does the recent interest many fundamentalist Christians have shown in joining the Catholic Church.

They may be surprised to learn once they join the Catholic Church, that there is no "set faith"; and many Catholics will disagree with their misogyny and homophobia.

But John Paul II died and Benedict resigned, so maybe now we won't offer such a comfortable refuge for extremists from the right. And maybe we who found such hope in Vatican II and its doctrines of openness and generosity, will once again feel comfortable in our own church.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:11 AM

Musket, sans reflective cognizance,

"Absolution. Not penance.
Sorry. Can't get the hang of this religion stuff."

Bet me!..Your problem is that you can't let go!

GfS

P.S....that explains your bitterness...


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:55 PM

A bit like the cultural or heritage Christianity label. I have no issue whatsoever with the cultural heritage of my community being steeped in Christian history. You are what you are.

But we also have choices.

That frightens many people. The rearguard action of the church, in the face of losing influence is quite disturbing. The ones I feel sorry for are the many within the church of England who would embrace the notion of women bishops but the rules mean the vote of the laity dictates that the church remains out of step with reality and wishes to command rather than earn respect of the population they wish to remain in judgement of through the Lords Spiritual.

The position of the Catholic Church in offering sanctuary to vicars who exhibit misogyny is a stain on the concept of following a set faith.

Yet personal faith seems to me to have the direction and purpose of a jelly fish.

No. To be honest, on reflection, keep the tradition, lose the control freakery. Be judged if you must be by your deeds not your affiliations.

The more you wonder what the term blasphemy means, the less you care for the long term future of an ideology that has to exist more and more on merit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:32 PM

And there it is, gentlemen - game, set and match!
Or, if you prefer - QED.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:27 PM

Earlier this morning, Grishka said something that I think should be noted:
    Religion is similar to ethnicity: normally you do not choose it, you are it, regardless of what you think of its representatives and prevailing ideologies. For example, if Salman Rushdie is called a "British Indian novelist" in Wikipedia, he can also be described as an "atheist Muslim".

I generally share this non-ideological view of religion, but it certainly doesn't apply as well to the ideological types like fundamentalist Christians (and Muslims, to an extent). American Protestantism tends toward this "proper ideology" perspective, but it's mostly the fundamentalists in every religious group that get bound up in this obsession with being in possession of the truth. For them, "correct" ideology is the be-all and end-all of religion. And like it or not, there are a lot of atheists for whom "correct" ideology is equally important. Maybe there's validity in Grishka's thinking even on this - certain people come from a background that prizes ideological correctness, and it is these people who make the most strident religionists or atheists.

For the rest of us, we are individuals who come from a context that includes ethnic and cultural and religious (or non-religious) traditions, and we view the world and life from our own context. Our ideas are influenced by the context from which we spring - but our thinking is not dictated by that context. If we're honest about it, we know that our particular context is neither "best" nor "worst" - it simply is, warts and all. And in that case, the question which is the basis of this entire discussion, is moot.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM

Two things I never discuss - my spiritual beliefs (or perhaps lack of them ) and my footy affiliations!

But I do have to say that if it was compulsory to support either the Owls or the Blades, I'd wear blue. As it isn't, I don't!   :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM

Never hurts me. I couldn't give it out otherwise.

My tactics are mine, copyrighted and in any case, purely there to prick the bubble of pomposity.

Snag is, that in itself sounds pompous. ....

Stick to the footy. Far safer. Especially in S6.

Up the Owls!


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 01:45 PM

Yep, I was feeling a bit bad about hitting below the belt, and stooping to the kind of tactics that you yourself employ in order to wind up your victims, but your reply brought me to my senses! I'm fine now!

Not blind BTW, just can't be arsed to trail through the bollox that The Usual Suspects bunch have rabbited on about on this and the 'persecution' thread. The usual dogmatic bullshit from the usual dogmatic bullshitters, all trying to 'win' an un-winnable argument, all too brainwashed by their dogmas and too in love with their own bullshit to realise they can't win.

But still, a bit of a wind-up never really hurts anyone, does it? :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 12:54 PM

Yeah Backwoodsman. I have so many mates back in Sheffield, nice clever regular people with the usual number of fingers etc, that I had to move to Billy no Mates Lincolnshire to get some peace and quiet.... I was hoping The Isle was surrounded by water. Sadly, it's surrounded by dozy buggers like thee.

Up the Owls!

(Mind you, the border to South Yorkshire is walking distance so no need to feel too isolated and vulnerable.)


Anyway, you blind bat. Read one of the first posts to this thread, by yours truly.



Hey passing thought. I have regularly compared religious faith with football faith. Many comparisons, just as hard wired, just as testing... (This season more than some if I am being honest.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:41 AM

Well fuck me, I've heard it all now - a bloody owls fan claiming to be 'rational' and 'normal'!

I've got news for you Muskrat - you're the one who's delusional round here. And at least the religious ones amongst us have actually got a friend, even if he's 'imaginary' - nobody wants to be an Owls supporter's friend, even an 'imaginary' one (except maybe another abnormal, irrational, delusional Owls fan).


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Just a passing thought
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:21 AM

Oh dear Musket not the Wednesday!!!!!!!!!!!
At least it's in the right County.
But on a serious note being a fan of a particular team whether it be Footie or another sport is like following a faith. In fact in many conversations I've had with people, I've used the example of Footie fans as a way of putting my point of view across in that Footie / your belief in God is the common factor but many support different teams / have different faiths!!!!
And I can't see why so many have an interest in either of them !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:04 AM

It has been since 1867.

Some heathens and false prophets will look to statistics to say which is the best faith and to be fair, Man Utd would get the statistically best faith.

But don't confuse that with the true faith.

Sheffield Wednesday FC. Up the Owls!


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Just a passing thought
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:48 AM

just a passing thought musket, how do you know your's is the 'True Faith'


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket gettin.. can't be arsed
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:19 AM

Neither can you Keith. The difference being I don't try.

You must send me a copy of the a la carte menu some time. I always assumed religion meant eating off the set menu.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:26 AM

Religion is similar to ethnicity: normally you do not choose it, you are it, regardless of what you think of its representatives and prevailing ideologies. For example, if Salman Rushdie is called a "British Indian novelist" in Wikipedia, he can also be described as an "atheist Muslim".

There can be good reasons to change one's religious or ethnic affiliation, such as marrying into another community. However, those who hope to strip off their unwanted identity simply by declaring themselves, say, Tibetan Buddhists, are likely to fail miserably. The Dalai Lama often finds it necessary to warn of that.

As for myself, due to my somewhat volatile biography I cannot be more precise than to call myself a European Christian. This does not oblige me to submit myself to any authority. On the other hand, leadership is a fact of life, so we must face it critically.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:03 AM

No you can't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 03:44 AM

Absolution. Not penance.

Sorry. Can't get the hang of this religion stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket getting nostalgic
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:13 PM

If you are offering me penance for bad acts, I would like the following to be taken into consideration. .

Various folk festivals when having to be helped onto the stage through being rather refreshed.

A gig once when I took pain killers and night nurse before getting on stage. (Saw it on utube.. luckily it was under the stage name rather than Ian. ...)

Just about every punk band I was a member of back in the 70's...

I have already done penance. Scunthorpe Baths circa 1980.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:26 PM

What Kendall said!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 10:12 AM

A good confession Musket.
I offer you my general absolution for any bad acts you may have done, without any penance, (of course) if that helps.
:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket the serious III
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:36 AM

Ok passing thought. Cards on table.

I was first conscious of my calling when I was old enough to accompany my brother and to be there with all the other people, each with a purpose, each professing their faith.

As I grew to be an adult, I saw the commonality of people from all walks of life, singing together in wondrous adulation of the anointed ones. Each young lad hoping that one day, he too may be good enough to be revered by the whole of the community.

I saw the false prophets, in fact they seemed to get more air time on the telly than my particular faith, but my faith was the true faith. I attended most weeks, sometimes twice. Each time was a joy, a revelation. Sometimes, you left feeling sad, sometimes elated but the group worship was and is an important part of the religious experience.

My family before me, and my own two boys.. Yes, we go together when possible, sometimes meeting there. My granddaughter will hopefully join us one day.*

That's my faith. I love my faith, I grudgingly accept that others have Faiths of a different colour but it is part of me. Always has been, always will.




* So long as she doesn't keep asking bloody questions about the offside rule and how to apply it......


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,The good professor
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:34 AM

Woof! Grrrrr...    Woof!


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:56 AM

Good for you!..you ol' goat!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 10:31 AM

I'm a Deist. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.

I'm not a sheep, therefore, I have no need of a shepherd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Just a passing thought
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:35 AM

Thanks Jo & Mr. Happy, but come the rest of you be brave and share your thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:08 AM

Ayup, I'd go for that, Mr. Happy! God would go for it, too. I have it on pretty good authority that God doesn't like the pretentious shit.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 06:08 AM

Best religion!


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 06:00 AM

That's a challenging question, Passing Thought. I did my best to say what it all meant to me once upon a few months ago, and I got burned. But what the hell - I'll do it again. It seems to me that most religious groups have mystical roots, ideas that stimulate the imagination and take a person to unknown places. And then other people see that and are drawn to it, but they can't quite take the chance of following their imaginations into the unknown. As a result, they come up with a replica of that mystical quest, without the risk - and that results in rules and doctrines. It's still an honest attempt, but it lacks depth and constantly needs reform.
I guess I'm on the fringe of all that mystical stuff, and I find it intriguing. In that space, there are no answers, no rules, no structures - only questions to explore. So, I spend my life exploring what is the nature of goodness, of beauty, of peace - and it's a fascinating place to be. I like the religious ritual and tradition because it takes me to good places; but it's all a journey into uncertainty, seeking the ultimate good.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Just a passing thought
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:58 AM

All interesting comments, but as someone who does not follow a religion, I'm always interested in hearing from people who do and the reasons as to why they have chosen to follow that particular religion over all the others.
Would anyone be prepared to share this or is this not the right arena


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM

I typed colander but the phone thought I was daft. I googled and it reckoned cullender. I wasn't happy but cross Google and your credit rating can lower.

So. .. on this and possibly this alone, I bow to Michael and retract my spelling as he is far better at use of language than I am.

Ok. I can swear better than he can and some of his posts are. .. well we'll not go there.

But he can spell.

Although he knows fook all about pastafarianism. Incidentally, a couple of years ago, I had to complete a monitoring form which asked my religion. As the nearest to not applicable was "atheist" and my refusal to be associated with the term I quickly did a search, found the noodles and signed up.

Then I proudly wrote it in the "other" box.

So I suppose I am a member of s religion other than Sheffield Wednesday. Scary thought. ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 09:28 AM

In our 'Strict Lockshen' sect, Mr Gunn, the Colander is slung by a string of tagliatelle over the left shoulder. Surely you knew that. We shouldn't dream of wearing it on our heads like the heretical Raviolists.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 09:08 AM

Not likely. .. stated by me. .. Not accurate.

Mind if I take that as agreement?

We do appear to be pack animals and there are many studies out there to demonstrate that. To say that any benevolent feature of any religion was the origin of that religion is pushing against the evidence though. The religious ideal as we know it came from medieval control techniques, supporting the warrior kings and doing well out of it.

Michael. If you must quote Pastafarian history, at least wear a cullender on your head out of deference to the noodly one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 08:00 AM

""It is a well researched, pretty well proven fact that the object of religion is controlling the masses.""

I normally ignore statements that say things like "it is...a pretty much proven fact", as they are rarely factual at all. However, leaving out the appearance of "supernatural" beings (aka gods and their messengers, my observation is that it is interesting is how the lure of a belief in a deity has existed in one form or another from ancient times. That would leave some to believe that most humans are "receptive" to associated religious organizations. Many of the organizations have established a "code of conduct", which they feel will please these deities. Interestingly, many of the "codes" are quite similar, and seem to move forward with social changes in the civilizations. Some have also been used to promote specific "agendas" of rulers, or those who wish to oversee countries and resources.

It is not likely that what is stated by Musket is not accurate, as it is doubtful that this is the object of all religions throughout history. However, I suspect it would not take much research to show that many humans (aka, so called leaders)used religion, in one way or another, to enhance their ability to control a population. However, that does not mean it is the purpose of religion itself.

Something that is made for one purpose, can be used for many other purposes. But, that does not change the objective of the original purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:01 AM

I like the schism in The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.   It appears there is now a Reformed Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
.,,.,.

Ah yes ~~ the Orthodox Bolognesians are being seriously challenged by the Reform Carbonarites. There is even talk of a Heinzintomatosauce sect beginning to gain some influence in one or two canning-factory areas.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 05:03 AM

Reform.   Interesting question Joe.

I notice it is rarely those in charge who seek reform.

Which brings us to my point regarding the use if not the origins of religion.

In fact, the idea of "if you don't do as I say the gods will be pissed off" goes back to the origins of language. See cave paintings for details. And that was well before a Hebrew God was ever invented.

I like the schism in The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.   It appears there is now a Reformed Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Hey Joe? isn't the endeavour of The Secular Society, The Humanist Movement and other "atheist" bodies really a reform movement? Keep the morals but lose the fantasy?

Just a thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 02:10 AM

I wonder if maybe all Jesus meant to do, was to reform Judaism - just as what Luther sought to do was to reform Catholicism.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:56 AM

Hi, Ed - I think this is one of those "two nations divided by a common language" kinda things. To be universally understood, I should have used "one" instead of "you" - but that's rarely done in the U.S.
Sorry.
...and I have to say that I think that if we understood what others were really thinking, most of us could probably come to some sort of agreement.

Still, we have this from Musket: It is a well researched, pretty well proven fact that the object of religion is controlling the masses.

Certainly it's true that people have used religion as a tool for controlling others, but is that the essential object of religion? I think not - most religions were founded on some form of the Golden Rule, and got (at least partially) perverted later. All organizations get perverted - but does that mean we shouldn't organize? Better to reform, and not take perversion as a "given."

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:14 AM

This goes right along with Joe Offer's earlier post..and is, in fact something overlooked by most 'religions'.....you know, those institutions that make 'laws' out of dogma...

1 Timothy 1:5-7

5 "Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of genuine faith:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

Pretty much says it all...and as to WHY religions have tried to replace the teachings of Jesus! who, BTW, did NOT start or found a religion!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:47 PM

I dunno, Joe offer. I reread your comments and it is easy to get that impression. Maybe it would be a better approach in a discussion to be careful not post in a manner that leaves an incorrect interpretation to those you seem to be adressing?

I am not trying to "personalize" the discussion (or be argumentative) I am just making a suggestion for a remedy on what you raise, as you seem to indicate two posters got the wrong impression from what you recently posted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 08:16 PM

Ed sez:
Where did you get the idea that I suggested ""tearing down ancient religious sites because we disapprove of the religions that built them"". I make no such suggestion, and feel that it would be a purposeless approach.


and in response to a general statement I made about people ridiculing religion, "Passing Thought" said: I'm not ridiculing you or anyone else


Both personalized the matter and give the impression they thought I was accusing them of something, rather than opposing the action or attitude itself. Logical error, I think. Bad tactic in discussion. It can make an exchange of ideas well-nigh impossible.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 06:47 PM

Those who more or less ruthlessly strive to take control will use whatever religion or ideology happens to be at hand. This need not discredit the underlying ideas (e.g. the idea that all humans should be equal - obviously the winners will be "more equal"), but will often pervert their interpretation. All idealists should be very critical of their leaders.

Fundamentalism lends itself to totalitarianism, since the claim of absolute truth facilitates absolute political power. Think of the Ayatollahs in Iran.

There are other techniques of totalitarianism though, including total spying under the pretext of preventing terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 05:04 PM

I don't feel controlled either. but I reckon it undeniable that the "church" has wielded power ,at least in history.
but for all the churches excesses of power it is IMO paltry compared to the atheist regimes of the more recent past. their power over people has been near total.


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Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM

Well, that's the problem with a LOT of people, who can't seem to get it straight....
'Religion' is man's way of reaching God....
So frantic is that attempt, that those same people seem to disregard God's way of reaching man!!..so they become blinded by man's 'attempts', and resent God, thinking that God has something to do with 'religion'!!!

Now, if God was trying to reach man...what would He want to 'fix'??
What would He want to convey??

How about overcoming death, with the message that, Love is the power that does that?
Anyone come to mind?

Oh no, not Him again....He's the one to whom 'religions' have done almost everything possible, to steer people AWAY from, just so THEY could be the answer!...and politically agenda driven morons, push for more government to keep us 'in line', because they fear that if Love could do that, they'd become irrelevant...and we certainly don't want the manipulators of people's lives to FEEL minimized, now do we???
So their control factor incorporates the fear of 'discomfort' or death,......but, shhh, don't tell them, but that has been overcome as well!!

No wonder they hate Him.....He's made them powerless....unless you 'believe' them!!!

So, which is 'the best one'??

Oh, and did I tell you.....HE has NOTHING to do with 'religion'!!!

GfS


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