BS: Religion, which is the best one?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:41 PM

Well, Musket -

The Romans see baptism as the sacrament of initiation into membership in the church. If the parents have no intention to raise the child Catholic, most parishes will refuse to baptize the child. They view receiving a sacrament with no religious intent, as hypocrisy. I agree.

Musket sez: But only clever Christians like Joe and Keith are good enough to pick and choose it seems. Rational people who enjoy the traditional public service churches supply have to tell lies in order to do so.

Nobody's forcing you to tell lies - you should just forgo the ritual if you don't believe in it, and don't expect the church to perform a ritual for you if it means nothing to you.

As for picking and choosing beliefs, uniformity of belief is not as important to Catholics, as it may be to some others. The basic Catholic belief is the Nicene Creed, and almost all Catholics accept the Creed without question (but with various interpretations) - almost everything else is open to discussion and to a variety of perspectives, just like in real life. Right-wing Catholics have their religious litmus tests and rant on about how so-and-so isn't really Catholic, but the official position is far more open to a much broader variety of opinions. On the other hand, churches take their religious rituals seriously, as expressions of faith. People who want to receive such rituals, can rightly be expected to express some modicum of faith.

Pete, there is no required Catholic belief about the origin of the world. Catholics are free to take a literalist view of the biblical story of creation. Some do, but most American and European Catholics think creation took place by evolution - and evolution is what is usually taught in Catholic schools.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 06:05 PM

I remember reading a prayer letter from CMI which mentioned a vicar hosting a creation event ,and conceding that this was brave of him given the general unbelief of the biblical account among Anglican clerics.
it is not true that all catholics accept evolutionism. there is in fact a catholic creationist movement [Kolbe institute, I think].
the pope may compromise the bible personally but I understand that compromised position is not mandatory teaching. I,m sure joe will tell us if i'm wrong.
musket, as does dawkins, can see the inconsistency of compromising the scriptures.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:34 AM

In which case, Guildford Cathedral isn't a CofE church as they refused to let us marry despite my mother in law being one of their congregation and my wife being of that parish.

Worksop Priory Church will not baptise my granddaughter unless my son and his wife lie about their lack of belief. The same church heard me say whatever was needed to get my son christened almost 30 years ago.

Some will some won't. Simple.

This is what you get with boutique religion. Some vicars actually believe it all. Fine. But they put their interpretation above their managers and policies.

That's what is wrong.

Again. Picking and choosing what bits of your Bible you feel least embarrassed about? Fine but don't expect respect for it. Don't expect normal people to say, you know what? We should let their leaders influence law still. We should allow objections to Sunday events on religious grounds. We should agree to restrict commerce so as not to upset the buggers.

By the way. I forwarded a paper copy of the above to Southwell Diocese with my complaint and they pointed to the overall clause "at the discretion of the vicar. "

Hypocritical twats. Yet they bend over to accommodate bigots who won't be managed by a woman or those who see gay marriage as obscene.

Keep chiselling for relevance. It's too late. Education has evolved. Normal people see no reason to keep pretending. Younger people never did. Still, if you catch them young enough, impressionable enough or vulnerable enough, you still might have enough to pay for the electric. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:09 AM

I was married in church a few weeks ago.
We are both divorcees.

CofE says this.

Baptism


Everyone is welcome to have a baptism at a christening service in their parish church. There are around 10, 000 babies and children baptized in the Church of England every month. Every service is a time of joyful celebration and thanksgiving.

During the christening service your baby will be baptized. Your child is precious to you and precious to God. At baptism you make a decision to start your child on a journey of faith. The church and the Godparents support the family and the child in this decision.
Read more about Baptism

Weddings

Bride and Groom marriage blessing

Today more than a quarter of all marriages in England take place before God in the traditional setting of a Church of England church. You're welcome to marry in church whatever your beliefs, whether or not you are baptised and whether or not you go to church.
Read more about Weddings
http://www.churchofengland.org/weddings-baptisms-funerals.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:55 AM

Well, I see a lot of argument about the follies of Xtianity - without even getting into the sexism it seems of so many of its cult members, but pretty well bugger all other discussion of other religions.

I tend to disapprove of most organised religions, but might like to learn more about Buddhism, Shinto, or Confucianism, not to mention western paganism (excluding simple Buffyism).

I think I am right that the oldest religion (of those widely followed) in the world is IFA, a Yoruba religion, but what I have found while looking about it is some concentration on its structure, but little of its commandments. It seems difficult to give it much credibility given its apparent ageism and sexism with regard to allegedly evil witches, and its apparent belief in the existence of (but hostility to) allegedly evil sorcerers. One IFA adherent I know asserts that the Xtian trilogy belief is based on a misunderstanding or distortion of IFA.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:33 AM

No. I don't misunderstand at all.

The chair of my viva panel was a lay preacher yet he dug deep into my basis for certain laws of physics. I see no problem with traditional faith and reality. I love how you think I do.

I'll tell you what I don't understand. I don't understand church wanting any influence over society. If you can pick and choose then so can others. I wanted to choose a church wedding and as the common link of everybody on Mudcat.org is tradition, you can understand why. I refused to ask forgiveness for my sins and I had been married before. So what? I said. Something to do with the Bible apparently. My granddaughter is about ready for that family get together known as a christening. All the older family expect it. My lad and his wife don't attend the local church so they had to attend a set of classes where they can learn to be good parents in the eyes of the church. He didn't want to do that as he was brought up not to be a hypocrit. Looks like no christening then.

Haven't told him his mother and I had to attend them so we did. Decided it was all bollocks but didn't want to upset my Gran.

My point therefore is; Don't talk about picking and choosing then decry people for trying the same.   The vast majority of church weddings and christenings? Not a bloody believer amongst them. However, we have tradition. Many people want a church setting, a bit of Charles Wesley and a few bob for the bell ringers.

But only clever Christians like Joe and Keith are good enough to pick and choose it seems. Rational people who enjoy the traditional public service churches supply have to tell lies in order to do so.

Joe. You asked me to talk to the fundamentalists? Fine. Their honesty will be a breath of fresh air.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM

To deal with another of your misconceptions, what you described as the "closure by inspectors of another faith school" was in fact the unprecedented closure by inspectors of the al Madinah school.
It is also unprecedented that the school has been told its funding will be withdrawn unless it sacks the head, complies with equality laws and improves its education.

What you put up as a precedent was a school that was not closed at all.
It was just late opening because building work over ran.

If you entered into discussion instead of attack mode, you could become informed without making an idiot of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:13 AM

The Archbishop will tell you that he believes in evolution and the big bang, and so will any vicar.
You misjudge us Musket.
You speak from profound ignorance.
You make yourself an idiot without help from me.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:50 PM

Yes, Musket, all Bibles name God as creator.

Next question?

Almost all Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe in God as creator. How God created, is another question. Moderate to progressive religious people generally think that God created through the wonderful, natural, miraculous process we call evolution - that God was somehow part of that process. I believe that God is in the essence of everything I encounter, the unseen spiritual side of everything that is. And being a Christian, I believe that somehow, that unseen God is fully embodied in Jesus Christ - and partly embodied in all we encounter. Many Christians call that the mystery of the incarnation.

Progressive Christians won't fight about that, and generally won't proselytize - and they don't want this taught in tax-paid schools (I suppose that's different in the UK, since at least some religious schools are supported by taxes). Nonetheless, it is meaningful and sacred to them.

If you want to fight about it, then you'll have to go to the fundamentalists. They'll give you a run for your money.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM

Ok. Idiot to idiot.

When you say "we" how many CofE Christians do you mean? All of them? All of them with your huge intellect? The boutique ones?

You wriggle out of corners with slippery ease but saying CofE congregation don't believe in God as the creator is wonderful. I do get to the occasional wedding, funeral and christening and I don't think the faithful reckon the vicar is coming out with tripe.

I don't think the vicar does either.

It's rather silly praying if you just use an old book to guide your thoughts. Who are you praying to? And why?

Perhaps you might ask The Archbishop of Canterbury for advice here, as your waffle falls at the first hurdle. Doesn't even get past the first sentence of the book you base your cult on.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM

I can really only offer a few thoughts, ed ,from anecdotal evidence and would not claim that they would be validated statistically.
some people leave a church after an upset, or other personal reason but still retain their faith otherwise. it would be my expectation that their faith would continue to inform their morality.
those that leave their faith altogether sometimes do so in tamden with disobedience to biblical morality.
for any that lose their faith for intellectual reasons [I understand that Piltdown man fraud did some damage, for eg] I suspect morality may slide over time, but again that is not an assertion.
I don't think I could speak for other faiths, except to observe that many of them are tied to their culture and so perhaps MAY not be so deeply committed. of course the same can apply to Christian affiliation , and mafia may be a case in point.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:49 PM

As Joe has told you, thinking Christians do not regard the bible as a Science textbook.

It really is not part of CofE or RC creed or ethos.
We accept cosmology and evolution.

Sorry to make an idiot of you again, but you ask for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:41 AM

And for those who have the sneaking suspicion Keith could have given Pravda a run for it's pre 1990 money for the selective quotes there, perhaps anyone interested in seeing if he is a liar or not may wish to Google the school together with creationism and read the results. The BBC is a good one as it normally has no axe to grind.

If you can be arsed enough to and you agree with him then I apologise for being a thick twat with no idea and I might as well buy a tambourine.

Keith. If you could email me a copy of the current CofE Bible I'd be grateful. The only one I could lay my hands on starts with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. " perhaps the non creationist one may even replace my present bedtime reading?

Bill Brysons latest one about 1927 and planes.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:30 AM

In response to my statement that the Catholic Church is supposed to inform believers, who then must make the final decision regarding their own lives, Don(Wyziwyg)T says:

That would seem, Joe, to be a very convenient and effective get out clause, worthy of the most unscrupulous corporate interests, absolving the Catholic Church from any responsibility for the behaviour of its followers, from users of birth control right up to child abusing priests.

C'mon, Don, what are you trying to say? To my mind, you're just not making sense. What I said, is how things actually work in real life. People DO make the final decisions regarding their own lives. Even if they happen to profess a religious belief, they are not puppets controlled by outside forces. Each individual has final responsibility and culpability for his own actions.

And yes, it has always been Catholic teaching that each individual has final responsibility and culpability for his own actions.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM

A Muslim free school in Derby has been warned to stop favouring men and boys over women and girls or face closure.

The condition is one of several set out by Minister for Education Lord Nash in a letter to the chair of the Al-Madinah Education Trust.

The letter states changes must be made by the 15 October, including "compliance with equality legislation" or the school's funding will be pulled.

The school closed for a week citing "health and safety issues".

It closed on the first day of an Ofsted inspection but the headmaster insisted it was due to "a health and safety issue".

In a statement issued by Ofsted, to "clarify media reports" about why the school had closed, HM Inspector Sir Michael Wilshaw said: "Inspectors discovered that staff records showing whether they were cleared to supervise children were either missing or incomplete.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:14 AM

by David Allison
Published on the
10 September
2013


HUNDREDS of pupils at Sunderland's first free school will start this year's term late after a £3million extension wasn't finished in time.

Bosses say that contractors have not delivered "a safe building or site" in time for the start of the new term at Grindon Hall Christian School, in Pennywell.

A 14-classroom primary school building is not yet completed, with a drive and one-way system leading up to the Nookside site yet to be done.

Senior children were to start back at Grindon Hall on Thursday, with primary school children originally due back next Monday.

Parents of more than 500 children who attend the school were told about the decision in a letter.

Pupils will now return on Monday, September 23.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:53 AM

Another faith based school was shut down by inspectors in The UK yesterday I notice.

Such a closure by inspectors was unprecedented, and we still do not know what was wrong. It has reopened.

Creationism is no part of the creed or ethos of the RC or C of E Churches.
That is why they do not teach it.

I really am not trying to make you look an idiot.
I am sure you would correct me too.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:34 AM

The one before the one you say was unprecedented was called Grindon Hall. Prior to Gove's new legislation freeing them from local authority control, the LEA closed it after inspecting it.

You twisted my words to assume only OFSTED inspections. Even you could have googled to find it. It isn't difficult.

I never said schools either when I pointed out your assertion that CofE aren't into creationism. Our discussion wasn't about schools, it was about the Creed and ethos of Christian cults.

You know, the more you try to ridicule others to look clever, the bigger arse you appear. Is it that important to make anybody who questions your cult look an idiot? It's not as if you manage it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:55 AM

""The Catholic Church is supposed to inform believers, who then must make the final decision regarding their own lives.""

That would seem, Joe, to be a very convenient and effective get out clause, worthy of the most unscrupulous corporate interests, absolving the Catholic Church from any responsibility for the behaviour of its followers, from users of birth control right up to child abusing priests.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:41 AM

Another faith based school was shut down by inspectors in The UK yesterday I notice.

Such a closure by inspectors was unprecedented and we still do not have the reason for it.

I never said schools either when I pointed out your assertion that CofE aren't into creationism. Our discussion wasn't about schools, it was about the Creed and ethos of Christian cults.

Creationism is not in the creed or ethos of RC or CofE churches.
That is why they do not teach it.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:40 AM

I am often puzzled as to how different members of the same family, who seem to have similar upbringing, turn out so different, when it comes to adhering to moral norms.

It has also find it interesting how certain criminals, such as the maffia, can so proudly adhere to church attendance, when their lives seem to be in direct conflict with the church teachings. Possibly, they honestly seek forgiveness, but, maybe it is something else?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:14 AM

The one before the one you say was unprecedented was called Grindon Hall. Prior to Gove's new legislation freeing them from local authority control, the LEA closed it after inspecting it.

You twisted my words to assume only OFSTED inspections. Even you could have googled to find it. It isn't difficult.

I never said schools either when I pointed out your assertion that CofE aren't into creationism. Our discussion wasn't about schools, it was about the Creed and ethos of Christian cults.

You know, the more you try to ridicule others to look clever, the bigger arse you appear. Is it that important to make anybody who questions your cult look an idiot? It's not as if you manage it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:57 AM

Keith saying CofE don't believe in the creation.
Happy to have educated you Musket.
Catholic and CofE schools teach evolution and cosmology, not creation in Science lessons.

That is not the case in some other faith schools.

(BTW what you described as "another faith school closed by inspectors" was unprecedented)

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:47 AM

You know, there are many people who had neither religion nor loving parents to guide them but might still be the sort to help little old ladies across the road.

To someone like me, who has to accommodate people's beliefs in planning aspects of public services, state provided healthcare in my part, I genuinely struggle when leaders, both appointed and sometimes self appointed say "all (insert religion) Need this because we believe that."   Yet we have Joe being offended when church elders get angry with picking and choosing, pete saying he can't tell the difference between The Archbishop of Canterbury and Dawkins and Keith saying CofE don't believe in the creation.

Makes me think it might be easier to accommodate nothing and see how many put their beliefs before their health. We take out less court orders than you think to give blood transfusions to children of Jehovas Witnesses. Amusingly, many adult patients sing a different song when we tell them it's their choice if they don't want one...

In the meantime, our lead chaplain and I are sorting out how to give pastoral care in the widest sense to the vast majority of our patients who want to talk to someone but would be distressed or angry at the idea of having god thrown at them. Ditto those of a different religion. A Muslim patient in the last survey told of the comfort he found from the chaplain he spoke with, who was Buddhist by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:51 PM

Ed sez: It also seems illogical (to me) that mere membership in any church, or even a belief in a religion, or Deity puts those members in a position of higher morality

Agreed

---

However, the points of my questions were mostly around Pete's statement ""it is hardly any surprise if an atheist lies ...they have no ultimate authority ,after all, do they.if Christians are liars they are inconsistent with their faith."" Since they were stated, I was seeking any evidence (from Pete, or anyone) that this statement is reasonable, or not. My initial feeling is it is not reasonable-but I am open to being swayed by a convincing case.

Before they reach a modicum of maturity, people do need some sort of moral guide to help them make moral decisions, including deciding whether or not to lie. Some people never reach that level of maturity, so they continue to require authority-based morality. I suppose a religious institution could function as a moral guide for the immature, but I think that loving parents are far more effective, no matter what their religious beliefs.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:59 PM

If you were an ancient Mayan or Aztec I could certainly see how the great Amazonian mushroom god would be the Best One.

The problem was that once religious leaders got involved it wasn't about the message of mushroom anymore but instead about the interpretation by the priests to wield deadly power.

PS The art and written language of the Aztec resembles the spontaneous visions induced by mushrooms to a remarkable degree to this day. Absent are the violent war practices and depictions of the AZTEC. That must be the priestly power trip part of their culture, just as the Christian Inquisition and holy wars are part of the European priestly power trip.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:54 PM

""But how often is it that one must vow absolute obedience to the positions of any organization as a condition of membership? It really doesn't happen very often, so why should it be a requirement for membership in a church?...believers,...must make the final decision regarding their own lives...official statements by the Catholic Church on moral issues, are rarely, if ever, stated in the form of commands.""

I actually have no issue with what you say, Joe Offer, as it all seems most reasonable and is likely the "way it is" for many RC folks (and also likely in other churches).

It also seems illogical (to me) that mere membership in any church, or even a belief in a religion, or Deity puts those members in a position of higher morality (though there are various definitions of that word). I doubt that, as a group, they lie any less or more than most any other group (depending on culture). It seems reasonable that most lies (recognizing that some may be more serious in nature) are seen as low on the "sin list scale" in most religions today. I recall that even Christian scriptures indicated situations where lies by the faithful are ok.

However, the points of my questions were mostly around Pete's statement ""it is hardly any surprise if an atheist lies ...they have no ultimate authority ,after all, do they.if Christians are liars they are inconsistent with their faith."" Since they were stated, I was seeking any evidence (from Pete, or anyone) that this statement is reasonable, or not. My initial feeling is it is not reasonable-but I am open to being swayed by a convincing case.


In my questions to pete, I only used the RC church example, as you had earlier made some statements to build on - not that I am singling out any one religion to "pick on".


Anyway, possibly this topic has been exhausted anyway, as I have not seen any good evidence to validate pete's (above) statement. However, I will check out the links Grishka provided, as it seems potentially interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:52 PM

""But how often is it that one must vow absolute obedience to the positions of any organization as a condition of membership? It really doesn't happen very often, so why should it be a requirement for membership in a church?...believers,...must make the final decision regarding their own lives...official statements by the Catholic Church on moral issues, are rarely, if ever, stated in the form of commands.""

I actually have no issue with what you say, Joe Offer, as it all seems most reasonable and is likely the "way it is" for many RC folks (and also likely in other churches).

It also seems illogical (to me) that mere membership in any church, or even a belief in a religion, or Deity puts those members in a position of higher morality (though there are various definitions of that word). I doubt that, as a group, they lie any less or more than most any other group (depending on culture). It seems reasonable that most lies (recognizing that some may be more serious in nature) are seen as low on the "sin list scale" in most religions today. I recall that even Christian scriptures indicated situations where lies by the faithful are ok.

However, the points of my questions were mostly around Pete's statement ""it is hardly any surprise if an atheist lies ...they have no ultimate authority ,after all, do they.if Christians are liars they are inconsistent with their faith."" Since they were stated, I was seeking any evidence (from Pete, or anyone) that this statement is reasonable, or not. My initial feeling is it is not reasonable-but I am open to being swayed by a convincing case.


In my questions to pete, I only used the RC church example, as you had earlier made some statements to build on - not that I am singling out any one religion to "pick on".


Anyway, possibly this topic has been exhausted anyway, as I have not seen any good evidence to validate pete's (above) statement. However, I will check out the links Grishka provided, as it seems potentially interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:08 PM

Ed T posted some interesting questions on 06 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM:

Joe Offer has stated in a number of threads that many RC's ignore many aspects of the RC church, those which they have disagreement.
So, if one belongs to a church, is it not a morality-related issue when one "picks and chooses" and ignores important aspects you agree/disagree with?

I think that the idea of "obedience to authority" in the Catholic Church has often been overstated, and sometimes understood as "obedience to the Pope." It has long been Catholic teaching that obedience to one's conscience takes precedence over any other authority. The Catholic Church is supposed to inform believers, who then must make the final decision regarding their own lives. At least in current times, official statements by the Catholic Church on moral issues, are rarely, if ever, stated in the form of commands - although the press and the right-wingers often reinterpret such statements in the form of absolute commands.

But how often is it that one must vow absolute obedience to the positions of any organization as a condition of membership? It really doesn't happen very often, so why should it be a requirement for membership in a church?

Right-wing Catholics use the term "cafeteria Catholic" to describe anyone who is not in absolute lockstep with their rigid view of Catholicism. And that term makes me go ballistic - especially since the name-callers often have a very limited understanding of the church policies they're accusing others of rejecting.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 04:03 PM

Thanks, Pete, the last post seems clear enough to me. I have a few curious supplementary (and related) questions, as the area interests me personally.

So, lets say a person leaves a church organization, would they retain the residual level of honesty (or some portion of it) from the association? Or, would it kinda evaporate with the lapse in the association?

What if they still retained a religious belief (we can use Christian for this example), but decided they did not wish to be associated with an organized religion. Would they retain the level of honesty obtained by their association with the organization?

Additionally, does it matter what the organized religion is (or, what Deity-God is involved), as it relates to honesty (such as Christian, Islam, Buddhism (maybe technically not a religion), Hinduism, Latter Day Saints, Judaism, Confucianism, Jehovah's Witness,Shintoism, Bahá'í, Sikhism ). Or, is this honesty more closely associated with one or more religions?

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:12 PM

ah, ed I think your last post clarifies better what you were asking.
I should have thought that , providing we are talking about the spiritual and moral guidance of the church , and not just the peripheral and ceremonial, that the church member would be more likely to be honest in life outside of church as well.
that would be my expectation, rather than an assertion.
it would also be my expectation that if a believer does not agree with all the teaching at the church he attends/affiliated with, that he would non-the -less be generally more honest.
but I acknowledge that in practise a non believer may be more honest than many believers despite not having a moral code that he could point to as absolute.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:34 AM

Weell, Musket, that's not exactly true. John Wycliffe translated the Bible into English in the late 14th Century. There had been earlier attempts. These WERE put down by Rome, and Wycliffe's body was eventually disinterred and burned for being a bad little boy. Never the less, his work had already been disseminated.

Remember that the originals were written in the vernacular -- Latin was spoken by many, as was Greek and Aramaic. There were also all of those scriptures in the Eastern and Coptic Churches; only now are scholars discovering what the Copts actually have preserved...and we'd be on even ground with the "Orthodox" churches if not for the "filioque" dispute way, way back when.

And you came flat up against the non-canonical books of the Bible, like the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of the Magdalene and all of that stuff in the Nag Hamadi library and the Dead Sea Scrolls and who know what else might be out there?

Illiteracy was not as common in the Dark and Middle Ages as has been presumed. Yes, the peasants and serfs usually were illiterate, but the merchant class HAD to know how to read invoices, letters, and accounts -- to say the least.

Personally, I don't much like the structure imposed on the Western Church because it's based upon the model of the Roman Empire. I much, much prefer that of the Celtic Church, but that was chopped off (as much as it could be) by the Synod of Whitby and St. Augustine (of England, not the other one).

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:54 PM

So. ... let's get this straight. Everybody to interpret the Bible to their own view and use that as their moral compass.

Ok pete. I genuinely support that notion. Or at least I support the right of Christians to pick and choose, especially the bit about putting the directives of a person below the directives of the Jesus hypothesis.

But a couple of things spring to mind. Can you therefore be a Christian if you cannot read?   Can a child be considered a Christian before being able to make informed decisions after all? (My beef in general. )

When you consider that the only reason Christianity survived through the middle ages was that the Bible was written in a language only the clergy could read and successive kings used religion to prop up their claim to be the rightful ruler, it seems to me that pete is actually ahead of the game.

Evolving even?

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:26 PM

Pete, I won't let you off so easily. I wasn't really talking about anyone comitting a sin, or not. It more so related to whether folks who believe in a god are more honest as those without a belief in a god. To test your statement that they were, I used an example of the RC church ()ou did not qualify any specific religion). So, if you are not honest to the dictates of your religion (and god), is it more likely that you are more honest in life than those with no religious comittment? Just a test of your theory (which makes little sense to me).It does not take intimate knowledge of the RC church to see your theory may not hold water (based on your earlier reasoning).

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:05 PM

I've been ignoring this thread because MY religion is the best and only true one. So there, that settles it.

Now...I have a minor in both theology and philosophy due to an education in Roman Catholic schools that covers kindergarten through my undergraduate degree. I worked 40+ years as a librarian, and I do have some knowledge of social science as well as statistics and some other bits of math (game theory, modeling, etc.).

I have noticed, and various studies agree, that in general Catholics do not march in lockstep with each other much less those in the Vatican. Vatican II -- the Second Vatican Council -- stated that the Church cannot prevent anyone from "sinning" (well, duh!), it can only provide moral guidance.

Pope Francis recently said much the same thing: stop being so scrupulous about things (being scrupulous is not a good thing for Catholics) like gay marriage and abortion and get out and actually WORK with the poor and disenfranchised of the world. The Church has made its position clear on these over and over, so if you are unaware of it it's your own fault.

I also like the work he's been doing cleaning out the cobwebs in the Vatican -- last year the late Archbishop of Milan stated flatly that the Catholic church is "at least 200 years behind the times."

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 05:53 PM

ed - I don't know that I should venture too much re RC church, as I am not RC ,though I would hope that all Christians are following Jesus more than any pope or other earthly leader.
I don't see an issue with birth control biblically but if someone does see it as being sinful from their biblical understanding then that would be a problem to them, perhaps.
I don't see ignoring church directives as sinful if not directly biblical but I am probably not qualified to be definite on RC teaching.
therefore I would not feel sure about that in comparison to , what seems to me, to be more obviously sinful.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:01 PM

Grishka, I do find social science interesting, which is one reason I ask many related questions.

And, I do recognize the value of the social sciences (versus marketing, disgiused as social science) as I have an educational background that includes this field of science (while it was awhile ago, I expect research methods remain the same), So, I look forward to reviewing related material.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 03:32 PM

No problem, Ed. You will doubtless find a lot of interesting reading, even if not the exact project I mentioned. Social sciences have a lot more to offer than what most people think they know and understand. Of course you can criticize methods and suspect manipulation.

Whenever I find some result really important, I check for critical reviews.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 03:17 PM

Griska:

OK I will try to find the referenced research on the internet, through your link.


As to your last posted question to me - all I am saying is:
No offense to you, or anyone else, but, I prefer to assess. The quality and findings of research "through my own lenses" rather than what someone else tells me it says or the quality of the research.It is much like the legal "rule of evidence" regarding the value of heresay evidence versus what you see for yourself.Please do not "read anything" more into it than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:20 PM

Ed, if I now understand you correctly, you actually doubt the validity of the study I mentioned. My hope to find it on the Internet is not very high, but I just read many research articles that are obviously not sponsored by religious organizations. Try googling

"experimental social psychology" honesty religion

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 01:26 PM

Yes Griska, please post the research. Since my questions (that seems logical and related, to me) seems to confuse you, maybe a discussion about an actual research project would improve the discussion, versus a vague refrence to research findings.

I did a Google search on related research and mostly found church-sponsored (marketing-type) research of questionable quality. While I do not rule out the potential of such research, I treat it with suspect, as I would most industry sponsored marketing research (like with the tobacco industry, for example, who often contracts universities to conduct research of questionable quality).It seems reasonable to subject such research to a more more rigourous review than unbiased (if such a creature exists) peer reviewed scientific research.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 12:44 PM

Ed (06 Oct 13 - 10:56 AM), as far as I am concerned, you are absolutely entitled to discuss my statements. Unfortunately I do not understand what exactly you are criticizing, such as "I doubt that research result" or "that result is about church membership, I doubt that it can be inferred to religious belief" or "It suggests a causality I do not subscribe to". I will not fail to answer, though I cannot add much to what I already wrote.

If I find a report by googling, I will post a link. My first try was not successful, but I found many other experimental studies about moral behaviour and religion. The science is called "experimental social psychology", and its established university community is particularly wary of any kind of ideological predisposition. This means that a researcher who catches a colleague with such predispositions will be hailed by the community.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM

pete,7*s

An interesting thought related to lies, religion and the lack of religious beliefs.(Note that I raise this thought as, IMO, it relates to your earlier premise about values (lies), followers of religion and Atheists).

Joe Offer has stated in a number of threads that many RC's ignore many aspects of the RC church, those which they have disagreement.

So, if one belongs to a church, is it not a morality-related issue when one "picks and chooses" and ignores important aspects you agree/disagree with?

I am not saying these folks are "telling lies" - "but". I suspect making a mistake one time is one thing which RC "confession" could fix. But, making it on a regular basis as part of your life (by rejecting it totally) seems to be "sketchy morality" (IMO).

For example, rejection of "the pope's clear direction" to not use birth control seems (to me)like rejecting a core aspect of the RC church. However, "if many" RC's choose to ignore it, and use birth control (against a directive) - does this place these believers on a higher moral order than those who have no religious beliefs? Ignoring directions of the head of this church "the Pope" (which this religion seems to closely links to God) seems like a perplexing moral issue to me.

Don't get me wrong, I am not disrespecting the choice of RC's to ignore (or reason away) anything they wish about the RC church. However, this seems to go against your earlier statement about religious folks, lies (related to morality) and those who say they have no religious beliefs. Just putting this forward for your consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:56 AM

, ""I reserve the right to mix whatever I choose, if I do not sell the result falsely labeled"

Grishka
Of course you do, as does everyone else. I in no way am impeding your "free choice- I understood it was a discussion (maybe I was wrong)?

However, if you post material about research in a discussion - it is reasonable for anyone to weigh the validity of the research and what it may or may not mean to the discussion. If you no not welcome such scrutiny-discussion just state it and I suspect many (including me) will avoid comment. I did not say you "falsely labeled" anything - I merely feel (my perspective) that there are far too many variables and unknowns (aka confounding factors) to take base much on the research. IMO, there is plenty of "research" conducted - some for a specific purpose, some poorly structured and conducted, some of low resolution, and even some that is biased - to accept results broadly or blindly on a broad issue. But, that does not preclude discussion.


""The rest of your message is once again incomprehensible to me"

That is clearly obvious. Regardless, you are free to ignore what you do not comprehend, or you can (if you wish) ask me a focused and specific question - again it's your your choice to do so, or not). BTW, (if you care) my reference to other issues was related to some of the "confounding" factors associated with to using "church membership" (you brought that up, not me) to select from in social morality and religion related research.


Anyway, it seems like our communication (note, it is not not argument in my assessment, but a discussion) has "gone south". Maybe there is no point in further discussion on it - if it is frustrating (or incomprehensible to you, as you seem to be stating - again, your choice to continue it, or drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

Ed, I reserve the right to mix whatever I choose, if I do not sell the result falsely labeled. Also, "we can reasonably assume" is something different from "I have the gut feeling" - the former leaves it to the reader to judge about the reasonableness of the assumption.

The rest of your message is once again incomprehensible to me. Note that I never mentioned church attendance. Note also that in Austria, church membership implies the payment of a fixed proportion of one's income, supervised by the state's financial authorities.

I do not place any weight on that research, I just mentioned it - no particular "agenda" implied beyond what I wrote.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:33 AM

The Friday night trad session at The Press Room...and it has BEER.

I don't have a God problem, but I DO have a serious problem with organized religion...ALL organized religions no matter what flavor. (I probably have the least problem with Quakers, Society of Friends.)

I'm well schooled not only in the Lutheran Christian tradition of my youth, but I've studied comparative religions. My beliefs are probably very different than anyone else's, but, as I've said, I don't have a God problem and my beliefs are a matter only between Him/Her/It and myself.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:11 AM

Griska


You may have your opinion, personal observation or "gut feeling"
, Mixng those with a research reporte of questionalble quality to put forward a conclusing is problematic IMO.

Like I said a few times, there are so many confounding issues related to that research, that church membership has any direct relationship to morality (telling lies) that it seems unreasonable to me that any weight should be placed on the result- especially when the recorded difference is marginal (as you seemed to indicate).

A list of of "church members" could vary greatly from the spectrum of types of people attending, as it is not clear about the specifics of such lists. Fewer people are attending christian churches on a regular basis (I am not sure if this is the case with all religions). So, the corelation between church membership, and those who believe in religion (it cannot be assumed beople do not believe any longer) is certainly changing. It is logical to speculate that the impact of the church and religion influenced morality (if it is accepted, for this purpose to be a factor) could be possibly changing with less attendance - even though these folks could still be listed as members

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 06:31 AM

Ed (05 Oct 13 - 07:04 PM), I was replying to the parts of your messages where you addressed me, about the experiment. Scientific experiments have no "face value", just their metal content. My own conclusion was that there is probably some correlation between religious faith and honesty, but it is very probably far weaker than Pete claimed before his post of 05 Oct 13 - 12:23 PM.

Certainly religious belief and (self-declared) church membership are distinct notions, and have always been so. Still, we can reasonably assume that they correlate strongly. It is of course possible that the honesty correlation stems from other aspects of church membership, but I do not see any plausible ones.

Note that a correlation, particularly a weak one, does not imply a causality. Honest believers are not necessarily honest because they are believers. In my opinion, as I wrote on another thread, someone who does good for the sole reason of being rewarded in Heaven, will go to Hell for selfishness.

It looks as if Pete has changed his opinion dramatically, possibly without being aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:57 AM

And, of course, we'll all find out The Truth, whatever it might be, in the end. By which time it'll be too late! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Religion, which is the best one?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 02:51 AM

Don, I agree.

But, ignoring the threads you mention which are comparatively recent and, as you say, appear to have been started as a deliberate wind-up (which I deplore - never let it be said that I'm not even-handed!), over the years there have been many 'religious' threads and my impression has long been that the anti-religionists (for want of a better term) are always straight in there with the sneering and insults, the childish "Invisible Friend" kind of stuff. That's the impression, maybe I'm wrong but that's long been the way it's seemed to me, and I just find it all so unnecessary. One guy believes in his God, another doesn't. Wuppy-fuckin'-Doo! Life's too short. Let's everyone cut out the insults and sneering, which are in fact counter-productive in that they stifle real, meaningful debate, and treat each other with respect. That's all I'm asking.

Personally, I choose not to discuss my own beliefs, nor to try to foist them on others. I believe what I believe for very good, and very real, personal reasons based on my own experiences. But I accept that others have different beliefs (and yes, I see non-belief in God as 'beliefs' too), and I'm happy to hear their views - whatever gives each of us comfort is good AFAIC. But I don't need to sneer and insult others for what they believe, and I'd prefer them not to sneer and insult me for my own beliefs.

What's wrong with that?