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BS: US Government shutdown

Dan Schatz 30 Sep 13 - 10:05 PM
Bill D 30 Sep 13 - 10:29 PM
Greg F. 30 Sep 13 - 10:31 PM
Donuel 01 Oct 13 - 12:05 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM
Mr Happy 01 Oct 13 - 04:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 01 Oct 13 - 05:16 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Grishka 01 Oct 13 - 08:06 AM
GUEST 01 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 08:44 AM
Lighter 01 Oct 13 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Grishka 01 Oct 13 - 09:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Oct 13 - 09:19 AM
VirginiaTam 01 Oct 13 - 09:22 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,dick greenhaus 01 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Oct 13 - 10:23 AM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM
GUEST 01 Oct 13 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Grishka 01 Oct 13 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 01 Oct 13 - 12:58 PM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 05:09 PM
akenaton 01 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Oct 13 - 06:00 PM
Richard Bridge 01 Oct 13 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Grishka 01 Oct 13 - 06:10 PM
GUEST,Squeezer 01 Oct 13 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,Grishka 01 Oct 13 - 06:18 PM
Greg F. 01 Oct 13 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Grishka 01 Oct 13 - 06:58 PM
Bobert 01 Oct 13 - 08:51 PM
Ebbie 01 Oct 13 - 10:25 PM
number 6 01 Oct 13 - 10:31 PM
Jeri 01 Oct 13 - 10:55 PM
dick greenhaus 01 Oct 13 - 11:33 PM
Joe Offer 02 Oct 13 - 01:27 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Oct 13 - 05:39 AM
Bobert 02 Oct 13 - 07:53 AM
Greg F. 02 Oct 13 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,Squeezer 02 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 02 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM
Lighter 02 Oct 13 - 12:21 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 02 Oct 13 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Grishka 02 Oct 13 - 02:20 PM
KB in Iowa 02 Oct 13 - 04:37 PM
Greg F. 02 Oct 13 - 05:14 PM
Bobert 02 Oct 13 - 05:42 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 02 Oct 13 - 05:55 PM
Bill D 02 Oct 13 - 06:17 PM
akenaton 02 Oct 13 - 06:28 PM
Lighter 02 Oct 13 - 06:41 PM
Bobert 02 Oct 13 - 07:21 PM
Bill D 02 Oct 13 - 07:42 PM
Greg F. 02 Oct 13 - 08:05 PM
Bobert 02 Oct 13 - 08:17 PM
Don Firth 02 Oct 13 - 10:35 PM
Richard Bridge 03 Oct 13 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,Grishka 03 Oct 13 - 08:10 AM
Lighter 03 Oct 13 - 08:12 AM
Bill D 03 Oct 13 - 08:56 AM
akenaton 03 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM
KB in Iowa 03 Oct 13 - 09:47 AM
akenaton 03 Oct 13 - 09:59 AM
Lighter 03 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM
KB in Iowa 03 Oct 13 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 03 Oct 13 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 03 Oct 13 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Grishka 03 Oct 13 - 12:37 PM
akenaton 03 Oct 13 - 01:23 PM
Peter Kasin 03 Oct 13 - 06:03 PM
Andrez 04 Oct 13 - 04:47 AM
Les from Hull 04 Oct 13 - 10:58 AM
dick greenhaus 04 Oct 13 - 11:11 AM
Lighter 04 Oct 13 - 11:21 AM
Stu 04 Oct 13 - 11:24 AM
Bettynh 04 Oct 13 - 11:43 AM
Les from Hull 04 Oct 13 - 12:02 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 04 Oct 13 - 09:18 PM
Bobert 04 Oct 13 - 09:26 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 04 Oct 13 - 10:47 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Oct 13 - 06:38 AM
Lighter 05 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM
Suzy Sock Puppet 05 Oct 13 - 09:55 AM
Lighter 05 Oct 13 - 10:01 AM
Bobert 05 Oct 13 - 10:38 AM
akenaton 05 Oct 13 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Oct 13 - 11:14 AM
Lighter 05 Oct 13 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Grishka 05 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM
Lighter 05 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM
Bobert 05 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 05 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM
Jim Martin 05 Oct 13 - 10:58 PM
Stringsinger 06 Oct 13 - 10:13 AM
Greg F. 06 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM
akenaton 06 Oct 13 - 04:40 PM
Lighter 06 Oct 13 - 04:46 PM
akenaton 06 Oct 13 - 04:48 PM
Don Firth 06 Oct 13 - 08:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 13 - 09:36 PM
Suzy Sock Puppet 07 Oct 13 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Grishka 07 Oct 13 - 07:54 AM
Bobert 07 Oct 13 - 09:01 AM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM
Lighter 07 Oct 13 - 10:37 AM
Lighter 07 Oct 13 - 10:42 AM
sciencegeek 07 Oct 13 - 11:56 AM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 12:23 PM
Don Firth 07 Oct 13 - 01:20 PM
akenaton 07 Oct 13 - 01:35 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM
Lighter 07 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 06:44 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 13 - 07:09 PM
Greg F. 07 Oct 13 - 09:02 PM
Bobert 07 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Oct 13 - 10:40 PM
Donuel 07 Oct 13 - 10:46 PM
akenaton 08 Oct 13 - 03:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM
Lighter 08 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM
Donuel 08 Oct 13 - 01:22 PM
Bobert 08 Oct 13 - 02:57 PM
Donuel 08 Oct 13 - 05:34 PM
Donuel 08 Oct 13 - 09:46 PM
Donuel 09 Oct 13 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 13 - 02:44 AM
Richard Bridge 09 Oct 13 - 05:01 AM
Charmion 09 Oct 13 - 07:30 AM
Lighter 09 Oct 13 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM
Bobert 09 Oct 13 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 13 - 01:59 AM
Richard Bridge 10 Oct 13 - 03:30 AM
GUEST 10 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 13 - 12:24 PM
Bobert 10 Oct 13 - 07:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Oct 13 - 08:17 AM
Bobert 11 Oct 13 - 10:13 AM
sciencegeek 11 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Oct 13 - 01:03 PM
Lighter 11 Oct 13 - 01:26 PM
Bobert 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM
Greg F. 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM
Ron Davies 12 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM
Ron Davies 12 Oct 13 - 04:20 PM
Joe Offer 16 Oct 13 - 04:00 PM
Greg F. 16 Oct 13 - 04:32 PM
Greg F. 16 Oct 13 - 05:26 PM
Lighter 16 Oct 13 - 06:01 PM
Bobert 16 Oct 13 - 07:02 PM
Van 16 Oct 13 - 07:33 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 13 - 08:09 PM
Lighter 16 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM
Van 16 Oct 13 - 09:01 PM
Bill D 16 Oct 13 - 09:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 16 Oct 13 - 10:50 PM
Greg F. 17 Oct 13 - 08:39 AM
KB in Iowa 17 Oct 13 - 09:45 AM
Lighter 17 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM
Greg F. 17 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM
Bettynh 17 Oct 13 - 12:35 PM
Peter Kasin 17 Oct 13 - 01:50 PM
Richard Bridge 17 Oct 13 - 04:12 PM
Stringsinger 17 Oct 13 - 04:39 PM
artbrooks 18 Oct 13 - 01:07 AM
Greg F. 18 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 18 Oct 13 - 10:21 AM
Bill D 18 Oct 13 - 10:56 AM
Greg F. 18 Oct 13 - 05:24 PM
Bill D 18 Oct 13 - 07:36 PM
Bobert 18 Oct 13 - 08:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 12:01 AM

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Subject: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:05 PM

OK, usually I pretty much avoid the BS threads, but this one is important. A number of Mudcatters work for the US federal government. If Congress doesn't pass a clean continuing budget resolution, they will be living without a paycheck as long as the shutdown lasts, with no guarantee they will ever be paid for that lost time. This includes are many friends at the American Folklife Center and the National Endowment for the Arts - as well as about 2 million other people.

I've written a blog post about it, if anyone's interested, but the basic point is this: If you don't want this to continue, contact your Senators and members of Congress right away right away. As was recently pointed out to me, our friends living in Washington, DC don't have any representation in Congress - so we need to raise our voices all the louder.

Dan


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:29 PM

My Senators and representatives are all leading Democrats... but I'll refresh the thread and yell down the hill. (Congress is about 15 miles from me as the crow flies)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:31 PM

Not quite- one needs to contact the Braindead Republican Assholes in the House right away and 1. tell them to grow up and stop behaving like 12 year olds; 2. Explain to them that at 40 votes and counting, at a cost of $1.5 million taxpayer dollarsper nonsensical vote, they are not going to repeal the Affordable Care act and 3. Remind them that "most Americans don't want 'Obamacare'[sic] is lie that they created themselves, same as all the other lies they promulgated about this duly and properly enacted legislation.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:05 AM

It has happened, not just the shut down but the credit default swap on the US treasury note that I POSTED under 'over active imagination thread.
TODAY the rate to insure the treasury note against collapse and default went from 160 to well over 1,200. Billionaires will be made from the accelerating bets that the note will fail. Nothing successfully fails as well as wall st. betting on failure. It picks up momentum as the fear of failure pushes failure farther and faster.


Yep our family is now without a paycheck. Despite what is being reported by FOX News that gov. employees will get a paid vacation the truth is that it is up to Congress to decide if we get paid or not.

As chief economist for a major gov. agency my wife's job included taking actions to insure a procedural shut down and answer questions of contractors, employees and directors.

My dad was a gov. employee as well. I remember him saying on pay day "THE EAGLE POOPED TODAY". The EAGLE is now officially constipated and may not poop for weeks since the debt ceiling extortion scheme by tea party reps, put in office with Koch Bros money, is only 2.2 weeks away.

the debt ceiling postponement plan is the truly serious and hideous crime that has been planned for 2 years.


Last time the US lost their AAA credit rating on the mere11th hour resolution of the threat to do nothing. To actually go past the 11th hour would increase the nation debt by more than the sequester fiasco saved because of higher interest rates for dead beats like the US. The numbers are not solid since no one knows how a runaway inflation would effect of cheap dollars would balance out the debt.

The debt by the way has now been lower than it has been for the last 30 years. FOX is forbidden from reporting that fact.


Anyway its been crazy but my prediction about credit default swaps cloaked in the secrecy of opaque hedge fund transactions is beyond crazy and runs the risk of revisiting the days of 2008 and too big to fail extortion of the US Treasury.

Obama could do what Lincoln did in the last civil war and dismiss Congress. What are they going to do. complain that it is unconstitutional? Too bad the Supreme Court is also shut down.

James Madison once wrote about the Tyranny of the minority. Now we know what 3o congressmen can do and actually inflict more damage on Congress and the country than the airliner that supposed to hit the Capitol on 9-11. That reminds me that the Rep Congressmen were heard tonight shouting "Lets ROLL like on 9-11" right before they began their vote to reject the Senate's clean CR bill.




On a less serious note, THIS JUST IN ;-)

Boehner says he is willing to table his defund Obama care amendment if Obama gives himself a vasectomy, by his own hand, on live TV!

not likely I know.

I see Ted Cruz waving his baton and conducting the singing tea party republicans in Congress in a rousing rendition of DIXIE and 'burnin down the house'.

The 30 tea party rebels who threaten to primary all squishy moderates and vowed to destroy and shut down the gov. by doing nothing still risk great injury by cutting off their noses to spite their face and shooting themselves in the foot and setting recreational fires in their bedrooms and jamming a sharp stick in their eye and tripping on their own bloody feet and falling face first, sans noses, in the mud.

Here's mud in your eye Republicans.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:19 AM

Can we have that in comprehensible form please?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Mr Happy
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 04:49 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24342521


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:16 AM

For those who still maintain that there is no difference between the parties, there is your answer.

Obama and the Democrats legaly and correctly try to give the benefit of affordable health care to at least some of the 47 million who previously had none.

The Republicans throw their toys out of the pram and hold America to ransom, threatening to destroy the country if the Health Care isn't postponed.

They are so determined that Obama will not succeed that they want, in addition to stopping any new initiatives, to destroy anything already achieved by him.

The lengths some people will go to, rather than allow an uppity N****r to run the country, even to the point of bankrupting the country in the process.

With the USA still struggling to recover from the worst recession since 1929 (which happened on the Republicans' watch), these clowns are prepared to shove it right back into recession.

Does anybody still think these mental defectives are fit to govern a waste disposal site, let alone a country?

I would suggest psychiatric evaluation for anyone who does.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:39 AM

Not only that, Don, but the Prez could not have caved in to blackmail and abandoned a duly enacted law of the land without bringing on a constitutional crisis. He would have abdicated his responsibility to support the Constitution.

Instead, we have been handed a financial crisis - which will only get worse when these same juvenile idiots refise to raise the debt ceiling in a couple of weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:06 AM

The problem is not the existence of "clowns", but a system that favours them being elected into power - often in spite of most voters' true conviction. Any complainer should also mention which other system she or he finds preferable, and found or support a political movement for it. "Those in power will suppress any change!" - only an excuse if you have really tried.

This applies to most countries, but I know only one country that allows a "government shutdown". The very idea sounds like a satire.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM

Federal employees will go without paychecks.
Does that include the politicians ?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:44 AM

While I agree with you in general, Grishka, in this particular instance it is indeed the result of ignorant clowns as well as the gutless wonders in the Republican Party who refuse to tell the minority clown faction to sit down and shut up. Peter King is the only one willing to do so at present.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:57 AM

GUEST: No.

The 27th Amendment, ratified by the states in 1992, guarantees Congressional paychecks till after the next elections for the House. Of course, the primary intent of the amendment seems to have been to keep them from voting raises for themselves.

So the Idiots Responsible lose nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:09 AM

Greg, I do not see any contradiction between our statements. According to BBC, the "gutless" fear for their personal career. This is morally wrong, but from general public's point of view, a political system should not rely solely on the moral quality of politicians. That is the original idea of "checks and balances" - now (and for a long time before) the system turns out to have the exactly opposite effect. I do not know enough about American matters to give good advice, but I encourage everyone who shouts "bad/gutless politicians!" to point out the flaws in the system as well, preferably proposing a way to improve it.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:19 AM

The 27th Amendment, ratified by the states in 1992, guarantees Congressional paychecks till after the next elections for the House. Of course, the primary intent of the amendment seems to have been to keep them from voting raises for themselves.

So the Idiots Responsible lose nothing.

Always assuming there's someone in the Civil Service working who can make the payments!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:22 AM

What will the shutdown effect?

Department of Interior
"Furloughs for US Forest Service employees at the peak of forest fire season."
Department of Energy and Envronmental Protection
Skeleton staff at nuclear energy plants and for the EPA. The former a risk because overworked stressed employees make mistakes. The latter means that "all clean up at Superfund sites in 47 states will cease."

Health & Human Services
Bad news for the elederly, infants and people with compromised immune systems. At the beginning of flu season -
"What won't continue is the CDC's seasonal flu vaccine program. And any outbreak of a new strain of flu could prove to be disastrous, as the agency's ability to respond to a crisis or distribute up-to-date treatment information will be significantly delayed."


So I would call this stunt an act of terrorism more than a mere temper tantrum. There should be a hew and cry from the public for them to cease and desist immediately. And charges of perpetrating danger to the safety of nation's citizens brought against them.

Failing that a class action suit, to suck each rich assed corporate puppet dry of every penny he/she possesses.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 09:43 AM

C'mon now, Tam - the Republicans claim they're doing this because the American People want them to. And because they're "right" and they have the best interests of the American people at heart.

You tellin' us they're lying?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM

Seems to me that a Congress that's unable to perform the basic functions of running a government should be impeached for either misfeasance, malfeasance, nonfeasance or all three.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:23 AM

I hate to agree with Don, but I do on this occasion. And VT I agree with too. The root of this problem is that the pathway to the Affordable Care Act threw out the only proper scheme - Kucinich's single payer scheme, although even that did not go far enough.

The USA needs an NHS of its own (rather than US asset strippers buying the privatised bits of ours). Articles about this problem do refer to the fact that the US is the only first world country without proper national healthcare. That should be a badge of shame for America.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:44 AM

The problem is not the existence of "clowns", but a system that favours them being elected into power

If you mean that a portion of "the system' in the U.S. is comprised of larger cadre of even more ignorant, uneducated, idiot clowns - called voters of a certain persuasion - that place these ignorant clowns in the Federal and State legislatures, I fear you're right, Grishka.

However, they are proven to be uneducable and they refuse to accept proven fact, preferring instead the concoctoion of myth, fantasy and bald-faced lies cooked up by the RepubliClowns running for, and elected to, office.

Sort of euthanasia, I don't know what can be done about them.

Suggestions welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 11:24 AM

Try cryogenics instead of euthanasia.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:54 PM

Greg, other democratic nations have uneducated voters as well, whose primitive instincts are being exploited by "populist" politicians. This is particularly easy when there are strong causes for frustration, therefore it is a good idea to reduce these causes: not only manifest poverty, but also a feeling of injustice, or fear of losing out in the future. In such a state of mind, people can easily act much more stupid than they are.

The second remedy is of course to improve general education.

But my suggestion is much more elementary than those ambitious goals. It is to change the constitution so that responsibility can be more clearly located. In particular, abolish all those preposterous and abusive features such as government shutdown, filibustering, etc. etc. Now is the best time for all US Americans to see that the system does not work, so that a reform has better chances than before. While you are at it, you may restructure the competences of Federal and State governments for more clarity.

A single Federal government that is exclusively in charge, as in Canada and most other countries, can be held responsible if things go wrong; there are fewer valid excuses. Voters will hopefully be less likely to reelect it, particularly if another party is at hand that sounds more convincing. With a truly responsible government, the difficult problems of education and avoiding frustration can be tackled with better chance of success.

It does not always work, but sometimes in some countries, not necessarily of higher levels of education and/or wealth etc. than the USA. If you wait until most voters are miraculously enlightened, you may wait forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:58 PM

Pretty slick of Congress and the President....They still get paid for lying to us!...BUT, the banksters, that they represent, will make a bundle off this..they always do, when it all gets ironed out, and they are paid back, WITH INTEREST!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:09 PM

The second remedy is of course to improve general education.

No chance, Grishka - the across the board draconian RepubliClown cuts to education funding since Ronnie RayGun are now bearing exactly the fruit they were intended to.

See also: Charles P. Pierce: Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM

The UK has a health service, free at the point of delivery a wonderful concept dating back to 1945.

Today it is widely abused by doctors, consultants, drug companies and the general public who feel entitled to everything and responsible for nothing.....It is used as a political weapon by all the Party's....It costs a fortune to run.

Concepts like the UK NHS are only as good as those who use and abuse them.
We have learned the art of corruption.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:00 PM

Usual bollocks from ake. An entitlement is an entitlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:00 PM

Usual bollocks from ake. An entitlement is an entitlement.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:10 PM

Greg, as I wrote, education can only be improved in the longer run. Until then, those many US Americans who do have a good education, intelligence, and goodwill should do their best to bring about the change, and publicize their efforts widely. I have not heard or read about such a powerful outcry yet. Instead, I keep reading complains that politicians are clowns etc.

You may be underestimating "stupidity" in other countries. Many people who are not able to sophisticated political thinking still have the cleverness to watch the elites of their countries closely. Only if the intellectuals fail miserably, populists get their chance.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Squeezer
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:13 PM

At the risk of some thread drift, I have to ask akenaton just how the NHS is being abused by doctors and consultants. All the hospital doctors I knew during my 28-odd years in hospital work were highly dedicated and worked very long and often stressful hours.

The NHS provides free and (almost) all-inclusive health care at the point of delivery for comparatively cheap instalment payments (which don't even have to be continuous). And it is expected to do much more nowadays than it did in the past. So yes, it does cost the government a lot to run. But despite what Murdoch and Cameron would have us believe, I think front-line care is highly cost-effective.

If (or perhaps I should say when) we change to a US-style health so-called system you will find that the cost of insurance policies, which in most cases will provide only partial cover, will be absolutely crippling for all but the top 5% of earners. A service which relies heavily on high levels of government expenditure is not necessarily inefficient. Conversely (and again with reference to the US) a commercial service which is funded by high levels of private expenditure is not necessarily efficient.

I hope that your post is not trying to suggest that the US might be better off not to have a national health care system.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:18 PM

As for health care, all existing systems have their drawbacks. Still, a nation must be able to make a decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:45 PM

You may be underestimating "stupidity" in other countries.

Not at all- I have a great respect for the awesome power of stupidity world-wide.

Nor am I talking about "sophisticated political thinking" - most of the RepubliClown supporters are incapable of rational thought, period.

US Americans who do have a good education, intelligence, and goodwill should do their best to bring about the change

Agreed - but when dealing with the uneducable brain dead, how do you suggest one should proceed?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:58 PM

Give a good example. Unite for a feasible new constitution, found a new political movement for it, organize demonstrations etc. If it is unsuccessful in the first try, at least you can say you tried.

What is really needed is media power, traditionally TV companies that reach the "brain dead". This may be a problem if all such companies are bought by the establishment. The Internet "blogosphere" is an excellent second choice, assuming that the NSA would not want to be caught censoring blatantly.

First of all, those whose brain is alive must use it and get together.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 08:51 PM

Looks as if the TeaPubs have shot their wad early... They were too anxious to fuck with Obama and took the cheap bait... Now that they have fucked with Obama then the more important issue will be the debt ceiling, which BTW, would be more harmful to the US economy than what the TeaPubs have gone for...

So, right on the heels of this shutdown the TeaPubs have used their "Shut Down" card early and have lost this one so bad that it is laughable...

Bye to the TeaPubs... They have all but signed their own death certificates... They have insured that the Dems will hold the Senate in '14, will win back more seats in the House and the White House is now completely out of reach for the Republicans in '16...

Stupid people do stupid things...

Thank you, TeaPubs, for being stupid people...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:25 PM

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Today I spent several hours watching live House speeches, the ultimate votes, the commentary and viewer comments.

I wouldn't count Cruz out just yet- although I hope he took a heavy blow today with the failure of the vote for the temporary stopgap for veterans, national parks and Washington, DC. They said that the rift within the GOP boiled down to separate plans favored by Mitch McConnell and Ted Cruz, and Cruz's plan won. And of course, lost.

I don't care for McConnell but I like Cruz even less.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: number 6
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:31 PM

I'd say this is a result of the American political system breaking down ... it just doesn't work anymore.

biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:55 PM

The last time they did this, it came back to bite them on the butt. I hope it bites harder this time, but it will be a while before then next Congress happens.

After visiting a few other websites and hearing news programs, it seems the Republicans are trying to blame this on Democrats (for not caving). We need a huge backlash against 'stupid'.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 11:33 PM

One might legitimately attach some of the blame to Harry Reid---who could have put an end to this filibuster nonsense on the day this Congress convened.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 01:27 AM

I tried to access the National Park Service Website this evening, but it has been shut down. I gotta say, maybe that's carrying this shutdown a bit too far.

Also, I heard of people who were barred from entering the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. That's usually an open area anyone can enter. Seems strange to go to the effort to block it off.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 05:39 AM

""I'd say this is a result of the American political system breaking down ... it just doesn't work anymore.""

Not too surprising in a country whose leaders believe that a democratic majority is 60% Bill.

Did any of them progress beyond primary school year two?
_________________________________________________________

""Also, I heard of people who were barred from entering the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. That's usually an open area anyone can enter. Seems strange to go to the effort to block it off.""

Indeed it does Joe, and how strange for workmen to agree to establish the blockage, before being laid off without pay.

I don't know about you, but I strongly believe that any British workman in those circumstances would have told 'em where to shove it..........sideways!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:53 AM

Harry Reid is a Senator, not a Representative, Dick...

There are no filibusters in the House... What there are are folks who are there because computers can draw district lines with the precision of a surgeon to insure the results before the first vote is cast...

But on the larger question of filibusters, I agree... Stupid rule...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:26 AM

Here's your genius voters, Grishka, and your racist idiots, Bobert.

"In most polls, a majority of Americans say they oppose "Obamacare." But a number of recent polls suggest that many of those same people are more supportive of the Affordable Care Act . There's just one problem: They're the same thing.

A recent CNBC poll found 46 percent of respondents said they are opposed to Obamacare. But only 37 percent of the same people taking part in the poll say they oppose the Affordable Care Act.

So, late-night host Jimmy Kimmel decided to take the seeming contradiction to the next level by filming a video in which he asked people to share their thoughts on Obamacare vs. Affordable Care.

"I just think there's a lot of holes in it and that it needs to be revamped. I just think it hasn't been thought out," one person says when asked why she doesn't like Obamacare. When asked about the Affordable Care Act, she responds, "It's better but I'm not happy with that, either."

"Just the name says it all," adds another man, who said he'd sign up for the Affordable Care Act but not Obamacare.

Another point made with one of the interviewees reflects the findings of a recent NPR report, which shows that many individuals who say they are opposed to Obamacare actually support many of the law's provisions when they are explained individually and without the baggage of being attached to President Obama."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/all-in-a-name--jimmy-kimmel-quizzes-americans-on-%E2%80%98obamacare%E2%80%99-vs--%E2%80%9Caffordable-care-act%E2%80%99-214544505.html


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Squeezer
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 11:54 AM

Where is that Guest From Sanity when he's needed? Gone fishing obviously, as usually he/she is straight in with an illuminating opinion on a thread like this. He is the only one who can clearly and logically explain how the Tea Baggers are saving the Free World. If anyone has his phone number, can they please ring him up and ask him to share his thoughts with us.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:14 PM

Did you hear that the stock market went up? They are manipulating it. Those rich white guys are trying to create the impression that shutting down government is good for the economy. Good for whom? It's scary what they are doing. They are evil.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:21 PM

Get ready to puke.

A tour group of WWII veterans showed up at the National World War II Memorial yesterday for a planned visit and found the large open space closed by the shutdown.

Somebody shouted "We're goin' in!" and the wheelchairs rolled.

Soon Tea Party Goddess Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann appeared with her crew. She threw her arms around one guy from World War II and said, "We want Americans to know that we're here to protect the lives and health care of these wonderful gentlemen!"

Then she gave him a big kiss.

(Another WWII group crashed the gates today. The GIs met with no National Park Services resistance on either occasion.)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:40 PM

Happy Birthday Yosemite National Park!

I wonder if the above means we camp out at Yosemite, start a campfire and sings songs about social justice without catching some teargas or a bullet. My guess is no.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 02:20 PM

Greg, such "polls" have been held in European countries as well, often by TV journalists, and the "funniest" results can be watched on YouTube.

Note that my main point was: if a large proportion of the elite agrees on a reform of the system, it may still fail; otherwise it is bound to fail.

"My ingenious voters" - perhaps you mean my statement that uninformed voters may still vote reasonably if they have the feeling that their leaders and intellectuals act consistently. This is actually more or less the case in many countries, so I need not hypothesize.

I am not surprised that the label "Obamacare" is unpopular: Obama's often admired rhetorics are still typical of a lawyer, not inspiring too much long-term confidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:37 PM

All along I have been thinking that the tea party repubs are the ones to blame for this. I don't think so any more. For the most part they seem to actually believe their rhetoric and are voting accordingly. I have come to the conclusion that the real culprits are the non-tea party repubs who are afraid (with good reason) of losing their next primary. They are willing to put the country at risk in order to save their jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 05:14 PM

Not INgenious, Grishka- plain "genius"- sarcasm alert. Point is that the folks opposed to whatever it is don't know what it is. Oh, ye generation of morons.

For the most part they seem to actually believe their rhetoric and are voting accordingly.

I fail to see that believing in absolute fairytale made-up nonsensical no-facts-need-apply ignorant anti-intellectual bullshit is something to be admiredc - or for that matter condoned.

Get 'em committed to a lunatic asylum where they belong.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 05:42 PM

Non-essential government employees:

EPA regulators who spend an inordinate amount of time chasing folks like the Koch brothers for poisoning our water and polluting our air...

Justice attorneys who spend an inordinate amount of time chasing the right wing KKKers from imposing voter suppression laws to prevent minorities from voting...

National Guard which has been called upon to assist in fighting fires and rescuing flood victims...

Etc. etc, etc...

The TeaPubs would have you believe that these people are non-essentail and in their eyes these people are...

BTW, the average net worth of a TeaPub congressman is $1.4M... In other words??? 1%ers...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 05:55 PM

I don' care how consistent or sincere the Tea Partiers are, they're heartless morons who believe their own bullshit and hide behind a religion that they don't interpret faithfully in the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 06:17 PM

"...heartless morons who believe their own bullshit..."

Well, the first part is accurate, but I often wonder if they actually 'believe' much of it. They have a certain agenda, and much of it requires either lying OR belief in weird ideas. I'm not sure some of them actually bother to sort out in their own heads what the difference is.

It is a matter of: "Here's what we want, and here's the standard talking points we sorta think we are supposed to deliver for the 'cause'."

You ever been to a store where you can't get the goods or service you want, and the answer is: "There's no reason for it...it's just our policy."?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 06:28 PM

GUEST squeezer....I certainly think that a nationalised health service, free at the point of delivery is an excellent concept.
The point I am making is, we as a society do not deserve such a concept, and are unfit to safeguard it.

Look at this thread, how left and right dislike one another, how they are divided over irrelevancies instead of fighting the real enemy which is the whole political and economic system.
We are ruled by money, our value is weighed in money, without money we are worthless....and yet "intelligent" people still talk as if we have "equality" or anything resembling "equality"

Grinshka is correct, we should be uniting to form a new less money orientated society, the alternative being decades of stagnation and a couple of generations of kids with no purpose in life.
Until our living standards fall so low that the system judges that we are worth exploiting again!
At least the Tea Party folks seem to be in the mood to contemplate change, probably change that we on the left will not like....to begin with... but change we must, for the money and jobs have gone for good.

Global Capitalism is cyclical, we have been near the top of the cycle for a hundred years, but Global Capital moves on to new exploitations, we have become redundant, along with our kids and grand kids......and do you think any of the political party's really care? As long as they can divide and rule they are happy.....and our masters are happy, for the more deeply we are divided, the more easily they can squeeze the blood from our bodies, cut our living standards and render us an ineffective lumpen mass.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 06:41 PM

Illinois voter comments on TV:

"The shutdown is a good thing. The less the government does, generally the better."

"Obama should give up on Obamacare and do something to help people who are struggling."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:21 PM

Funny segment last night on MSNBC where people on the street are asked two questions:

1. How do you like Obamacare???

2. How do you like the Affordable Care Act???

It was amazing how many people hated Obamacare but loved the Affordable Care Act???

Garbage in = garbage out...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 07:42 PM

"The shutdown is a good thing. The less the government does, generally the better."

That has become just a mantra for folks who have not studied history or politics in any depth. They, in general, "don't like being regulated or told what to do" so they parrot that vague generalization about "less government"... until they want something they need government regulation or taxes for. You do NOT run a huge country with world-wide concerns without a system... and you do NOT make decisions based on what Libertarians shout from street corners!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:05 PM

but I often wonder if they actually 'believe' much of it

Yes, they do, Bill - in their colossal ignorance, they believe all of it.

Would be easier to deal with if they were just putting on a show for political advantage.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 08:17 PM

Want the following:

Poison air???

Polluted water???

Poverty???

Privatization of everything down to gravity itself???

No public education???

Vote for the Tea Party... This is their ideal America...

Want to see their ideal country??? Rent "Mad Max After the Thunder Dome" That's exactly what they want... Or plan a vacation in Somalia...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 10:35 PM

Bobert, your post just above at 02 Oct 13 - 07:21 PM (it depends on what you call it, "Obamacare" or "the Affordable Care Act") is another example of why a large percentage of the populace is in dire need of a good dope-slap!

========

Highly recommended:

The March of Folly, by historian and writer Barbara W. Tuchman, Random House Trade Paperbacks (February 12, 1985). Barbara Tuchman is the acclaimed author of The Guns of August, about World War I, and a number of other books.

In The March of Folly she shows how, throughout history, rulers, governments, and those in positions of power have become victims of their own willful folly, which Tuchman defines as "pursuing a policy contrary to their own self-interest." Time and time again, rulers and governments have acted shortsightedly and contrary to common sense. In each example, an alternative course of action was available. The government actions were endorsed by a group, not just an individual leader. But these actions were perceived by many others as counterproductive or downright disastrous in their own time. Yet, those in power blundered ahead.

Many individuals are guilty of folly (Tuchman also calls this wooden headedness), but when governments persist in folly, their actions can adversely affect thousands, even millions of lives.

Folly is a child of power. "The possession of power frequently causes failure to think."

Barbara Tuchman is always a good read.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:29 AM

With all due respect, the pursuit only of self interest is one of the viler things about those governments that are vile. Government should know right from wrong and heed the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:10 AM

Greg, I understood you alright. My point was that all of us, even real "geniuses", lack expert knowledge in most areas of politics; this being so, we must rely on our best knowledge of human nature, more often than we consciously realize. If a leader, however right, talks like an arrogant and agenda-driven lawyer, and some intellectuals who do not appear agenda-driven criticize him strongly, people are bound to be suspicious. Other countries have developed techniques to reduce the perceived percentage of ideology in such fundamental decisions - it can work, to a certain extent.

There is no need to be ashamed of learning from other countries - these have learned a lot from the USA and from each other.

Ake, indeed I think that western society overestimates the significance of money (and other concepts such as personal power, beauty, "intelligence", fitness, etc.), but changing that is a distant goal. Shouting for a technical change of the government system, and working out one that is at least as good as that of other countries, should be done right now.

A system that favours vile or stupid politicians to come to power is vile or stupid in itself. If you want to wait for good people to come to power accidentally, you may wait forever, and you would not deserve them anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:12 AM

Well, everybody has interests.

Tuchman's point is that organizations can be so collectively stupid that they forget their overriding interests in pursuit of glittering, usually short-term, advantages.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:56 AM

Grishkas's comment deserves repeating with emphasis:


"A system that favours vile or stupid politicians to come to power is vile or stupid in itself. If you want to wait for good people to come to power accidentally, you may wait forever, and you would not deserve them anyway."

We are in this stupid, awkward situation because those 'extra' people who voted for Obama in 2008 didn't bother to vote for Democrats in 2010 - so we got our 10 year census and subsequent re-districting done by Republicans... who proceeded to do a super-Gerrymander and ensure that more Republicans are elected to the House, even if there were more votes for Democrats.
Now those Republicans are further restricting voting rights in an attempt to 'game the system' so that it is much MORE difficult to recapture the House and redress the injury.
If we get a Republican Senate and/or president before the situation is corrected, we can look forward to a totally stacked court system which will rubber stamp most of the egregious monotheism the Republicans are planning.

Scary enough for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:46 AM

"game the system"

The system is a "game".

While the people bicker the corporate capitalists rub their hands


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:47 AM

I fail to see that believing in absolute fairytale made-up nonsensical no-facts-need-apply ignorant anti-intellectual bullshit is something to be admiredc - or for that matter condoned.

I did not say that I either admired or condoned the tea party repubs.

I said that I have come to see the non-tea party repubs as the ones who could have prevented this but lacked the backbone to do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:59 AM

What's so good about the Democrats?
They would have taken you into another unwinnable war, (just as Blair's Labour Party did in the UK).....if they had not been seriously outflanked by the "undemocratic" Russians.

Can you believe it! these bastards actually wanted a political solution!!
They must be mad!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM

Update on pay:

According to CNN, all members of the House have promised either to forgo their pay during the shutdown or else give it to charity.

If furloughed government employees don't eventually get paid.

A big if. However, four representatives- two Democrats and two Republicans - so far have no plans to inconvenience themselves even in theory.

However, 431 out of 435 isn't bad.

BTW, the cartoon capitalists supposedly "rubbing their hands" will be in for a surprise when the stock market tanks and the recession roars back, as it undoubtedly will if the same Fools on the Hill refuse in two weeks to raise the so-called "debt ceiling" (in reality the "authorization to pay our last-year's bills at home and abroad")


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 10:28 AM

What's so good about the Democrats?

Was this comment directed at me? I did not mention the Democrats at all, for good or ill.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 11:26 AM

I `ad that Fisher T.Fish from Connecticut in my cab the other day. `e `ad a bad case of shingles and asked me to take `im to the nearest `ospital which `appened to be "St Thom`s", NHS.
I said, just to take `is mind off the pain, "Them "Good Old Boys" from down south `ave really got your lot discombobulated, aint they."
`e said, "Right on Jim. Obamacare, my ass, but I just don`t know how the nations gonna cope."
I said, "Not to worry, Fish. Belgium didn`t `ave a government for eighteen months and it didn`t make a blind bit of difference. Maybe there`s something we can all learn from that!!"


Whaddam I Like??


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 11:45 AM

I respect to AK`s comment on service abuse I do feel there are some questionable practises.
Some years I attended Pembury Hospital for serious spinal treatment. It was decided I needed a MRS scan. Bearing in mind the discomfort and pain was often chronic my consultant said I could go on a list that may take weeks but If I paid £500, which I did, I could be done in three days, outside normal hospital daily times, NHS equipment and NHS staff!!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 12:37 PM

"Gaming the system" seems to be the name of the game, exploiting loopholes in the rules. But the rules can be changed, even "sacred" constitutions. If Egyptians can do it, why not US Americans?

Lighter's "BTW" (03 Oct 13 - 10:25 AM) conforms to what BBC tells us. Don't be too sure in advance who profits from which scenario. Many clever "brinkmen" went over the edge collectively, like the most stupid lemmings.

Belgium: not exactly a role model, but never had a real shutdown. Even Italy's ex-Cavaliere, with quite a record of ruining his country, could not afford to torpedo the present government.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 01:23 PM

Jim Knowledge........humourist and philosopher! ;0)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 06:03 PM

National Park Service ranger here, hoping to get back to work soon!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Andrez
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 04:47 AM

Hmmmmm so since we find Mudcat remaining open for business can I assume that it has been declared to be an essential service and hence precluded from being shut down?

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 10:58 AM

We've booked a holiday in a couple of weeks' time. The theme of the holiday - visiting US National Parks. So we are hoping that the non-Tea Party Repubs can soon bring the idiot wing of their party to understand what this action is likely to do to their hopes of ever having a Republican President in the foreseeable future. Just a view from over the pond.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 11:11 AM

There's a sort of twisted appeal to the idea of only funding things youi happen to agree with.Do you think the House would mind if I did that with my income tax? (I don't approve of subsidies to oil companies, and I don't care for much of our military spending. Not paying for these would really help reduce my tax bill)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 11:21 AM

A Tea Party leader/theorist not in government explained to CNN yesterday that the shutdown is perfectly justified because

1. no Republican, and certainly no Tea Party member, voted for the Affordable Care Act when it was passed by the House and Senate.

2. the President refuses to negotiate further with Tea Party Congressmen after agreeing to cut his proposed funding for the Act by $40 billion.

3. and though the President was re-elected by a majority of voters on an Obamacare platform despite years of Republican campagining to gut or repeal it, "he would never have been re-elected if Americans knew then what they know now about Obamacare."

No, I am not making this up.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Stu
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 11:24 AM

So . . . some Americans are armed to the teeth with guns and stuff because they hate the idea of government intruding on their freedom and want to defend themselves against their elected representatives, but all I am hearing on the telly is everyone moaning as the government is having LESS to do with their lives. Has the fabled answer-to-everything free market stopped working over there or what?

Shurely shome mishtake?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bettynh
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 11:43 AM

Don't cancel your tickets, Les, even if this nonsense should go on. It may be a bit of work, but look at our state parks systems. Every state has wonderful scenic splendors and historic sites set aside with no federal funding. Many times they're close to the big national parks.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 12:02 PM

Thank you for your advice, Betty. It's an organised itinary, but I can suggest it to the holiday organisers if it gets to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 09:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton - PM
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 06:28 PM

GUEST squeezer....I certainly think that a nationalised health service, free at the point of delivery is an excellent concept.
The point I am making is, we as a society do not deserve such a concept, and are unfit to safeguard it.

Look at this thread, how left and right dislike one another, how they are divided over irrelevancies instead of fighting the real enemy which is the whole political and economic system.
We are ruled by money, our value is weighed in money, without money we are worthless....and yet "intelligent" people still talk as if we have "equality" or anything resembling "equality"

Grinshka is correct, we should be uniting to form a new less money orientated society, the alternative being decades of stagnation and a couple of generations of kids with no purpose in life.
Until our living standards fall so low that the system judges that we are worth exploiting again!
At least the Tea Party folks seem to be in the mood to contemplate change, probably change that we on the left will not like....to begin with... but change we must, for the money and jobs have gone for good.

Global Capitalism is cyclical, we have been near the top of the cycle for a hundred years, but Global Capital moves on to new exploitations, we have become redundant, along with our kids and grand kids......and do you think any of the political party's really care? As long as they can divide and rule they are happy.....and our masters are happy, for the more deeply we are divided, the more easily they can squeeze the blood from our bodies, cut our living standards and render us an ineffective lumpen mass.

***************************************************************************************************

YUP!

But at this point, I would also like to say that I have renewed confidence in the president that he won't give in this time. He cannot, should not give in to these cold hearted bastards who don't care if people drop dead on the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 09:26 PM

TeaPubs have shot their wad...

Maybe Obama throws them a chip off a bone to give them some face-saving??? Who cares???

This one is in the books and everyone knows it... 40 wackos can't rule the country... It's really rather simple...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 10:47 PM

Oh yeah Bobie, have faith. The apocalypse is not now. That's all bullshit. The world can be better. People have to decide. The choice is there. Everything is a choice, from big to small.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 06:38 AM

""We are ruled by money, our value is weighed in money, without money we are worthless....and yet "intelligent" people still talk as if we have "equality" or anything resembling "equality"""

Equality is an aspiration Ake, and a good one which I would have expected left wingers to like.

I'd hate to believe in your miserable and defeatist attitude to life, especially the idea of destroying the whole structure of current economics to go back to some imagined "good old days" which never existed.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 08:23 AM

A TP Congressman explained yesterday that the deadline to "raise the debt ceiling" (that is, to authorize the payment of what we already owe) is a fraud because "There's plenty of money in the Treasury."

Others disagree. But Congress still has to approve the payment.

The guy's theory seemed to be that when push comes to shove, Obama can use some Presidential-decree legerdemain to find money to avert disaster.

Of course, as soon as he did, he'd be "King Obama" to the TP people, seizing power from Congress, thwarting the Will of the People, undermining the Constitution, blah blah blah. Funny how that would work out.

Then they can monopolize Congress's time pushing for a new TP Constitution.

As explained yesterday, TP leaders don't believe in compromise *or* majority rule. As I heard one say a few months back, "Negotiation means getting the other side to see things your way and do what you want. You never compromise on principles."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 09:55 AM

I'm not saying that the whole damn thing is not corrupt from top to bottom. Just saying there's a little bit of wiggle room. We need to support this president. The more we support him, the better he'll do. He needs us. He can't do this alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 10:01 AM

At the moment, it's entirely in John Boehner's hands. If he calls a vote on a simple resolution to fund the government without any mention of Obamacare, it would pass in a heartbeat.

The the Fools could try again to repeal it by legislation. And almost certainly they would try because that's the kind if Fools they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 10:38 AM

What Suzie said...

Yeah, we are in a major pickle that has nothing to do with Obamacare or debt limits and everything to do with an experiment being carried out by the radical right wing to see if a minority can impose its radical agenda on the majority...

Obama is correct in seeing it exactly that way... This attempted power grab by 40 or so rabid Tea Partiers can not be allowed or we will have set a very dangerous precedence for our nation and how we govern...

But this goes well beyond this ambush as we know are seeing just how important it is to fix the systemic problems with our elections in gerrymandering and unlimited secret $$$...

What I see on the horizon is a 3rd party... Call it the "Purple Party... Call it "Do Something Right Party"... Call it what you want... But this 3rd party will have just one plank in it's platform: Fix our democracy"...

BTW, there are right wingers who love to say "We don't have a democracy... We have a republic"...

Oh??? Well, what the heck is a "republic"??? Really... And how do corrupt elections work with having a "republic"???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:12 AM

Just so long as you don't call it the "liberal" Party Bob...we've got too many of them already :00


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:14 AM

Bobert, as you know better than I, many "third parties" existed and failed miserably. If I were a citizen of the USA, I would call for a political movement, open to members of all parties but led by political scientists who work out a new constitution. If this is done well, and aided by strong pressure from the street, the old parties may find it wiser to join in, or preferably to dissolve in favour of new parties with clearer agendas.

Egyptians have not been entirely successful yet, but they are not likely to give up.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 12:42 PM

> a new constitution

Fortunately, all that's needed are Congressional rules to plug the procedural loopholes that are allowing this behavior.

If the nation's dingbats get working on a "new constitution," I guarantee you won't like what they come up with, regardless of your politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:18 PM

Lighter, since I am not a US citizen, it does not matter whether I like your (future) constitution. General experience tells me that patching one "loophole" after the other is not likely to succeed, since each and every such hole has its stakeholders who defend it with claws and teeth. A complete restart may be easier - it will produce losers as well, but only in one go.

Political scientists are needed for technical advice. The rest must be done in public discussions.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM

> Political scientists

Very political, not at all scientists.

Every side would marshal its own "experts."

Anyway, there will not be a second Constitutional convention in our lifetimes. There is neither the will nor the necessity (real or perceived).

The last time anyone tried it, they came up with the Confederate Constitution. Bad idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM

""Just so long as you don't call it the "liberal" Party Bob...we've got too many of them already :00""

Until you take the trouble to learn what a "liberal" is, that post is meaningless.

Come to think of it, when you have taken the trouble, it will be just as meaningless.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM

"Liberal" and "Conservative" are meaningless, yet highly demonized terms, that mean absolutely nothing...

Call it a movement or 3rd party is also meaningless...

What has to occur here is that enough people see that the House of Representatives is badly broken... The Senate is not much better...

When enough people agree that we need to fix that then, be it a movement or 3rd party, it will happen...

What we need to do now is just what I do... Put it out there... Frame it... Get people thinking... I do a lot of posting at the Washington Post and have been pushing this and have quite a few followers who are on board... That's the way this works... It is rare for any post to get 10 "likes"... I've had posts that accumulate 60 or 70 "likes"... That is a lot of folks on board spreading the word...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM

> I do a lot of posting at the Washington Post and have been pushing this and have quite a few followers who are on board...

Can you give us a link, Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Jim Martin
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 10:58 PM

IMF's Christine Lagarde's understandably getting very twitchy - could we not be heading to a global meltdown if the Republicans continue their childish tantrums?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24384759


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 10:13 AM

Two documentary movies illustrate the problem with the US congress and government: "The Dirty Wars" by Jeremy Scahill and "Inequality For All" by Robert Reich. These are must sees!

We'll see if the ignorance of the American public prevails or if they wake up
and see that they've been wounded by both parties. (More by Banana Republicans, though).


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM

A GOP bent on killing us to save us
Maureen Dowd
Published 3:21 pm, Saturday, October 5, 2013

A place once called Washington

An ape sits where Abe sat.

The year is 2084, in the capital of the land formerly called North America.

The peeling columns of the Lincoln Memorial, and Abe's majestic head, elegant hands and big feet are partially submerged in sludge.

The white marble monuments are now covered in ash and overrun with weeds. Tea party zombies, thrilled with the dark destruction they have wreaked on the planet, continue to maraud around the Hill, eager to chomp on humanity some more.

Thomas Jefferson's utopia has devolved into Ted Cruz's dystopia.

In 2084, there's little sign of life in the godless and barren lost world. The insurance exchanges are open and the kinks are almost ironed out. But there is no one to sign up. Koch brother drones patrol the skies. A gaunt man and sickly boy, wrapped in blue tarps, trudge toward the blighted spot that was once the World War II monument, scene of the first shutdown skirmishes. They know they may not survive the winter.

"How did this happen, Papa?" the boy asks.

"It started very small with a petty fight over a six-week spending bill but quickly mushroomed out of control," the man says.

"Whose fault was it, Papa?" the boy presses.

The man tries to explain: "The Grand Old Party, the proud haven of patriots who believed in a strong national security and fiscal responsibility, was infected with a mutant form of ideology. It was named the Sarahcuda Strain after the earliest carrier. In the infected tea party politicians, brain function decreased and social de-evolution occurred. They began ignoring their basic survival instincts.

"It's hard to believe now, but they were fixated on stopping an effort to get health care to those who couldn't afford it. It eventually led them to destroy all the things they said they held most dear."

The boy is confused. "They killed America because they didn't care about keeping Americans alive?" he asks.

The man sits down. His voice grows faint. "Well, they didn't seem to understand themselves or what they were doing," he continues. "In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, many of the feverish pols believed they were waging the right and moral fight even as GOP party elders like Jeb Bush, John McCain, Karl Rove and James Baker warned them that they were dragging the country toward catastrophe. The tea party leaders liked to refer to themselves as the Children of Reagan. But as Baker told Peggy Noonan, Reagan always said, 'I'd rather get 80 percent of what I want than go over the cliff with my flag flying.'"

The boy frowns. "But Papa, didn't the healthy Republicans realize the infected ones had lower brain functions?"

''Well, son, they knew there was something creepy about the ringleader, Ted Cruz," the man replies. "His face looked pinched, like a puzzle that had not been put together quite right. He was always launching into orations with a weird cadence and self-consciously throwing folksy phrases into his speeches, like 'Let me tell ya,' to make himself seem Texan, when he was really a Canadian."

The boy looks alarmed. "A Canadian destroyed the world, Papa?"

"Once the government shut down, a plague came, because they had closed the Centers for Disease Control," the man says. "Storms, floods and wildfires raged after FEMA was closed down and the National Guard got decimated.

"Once we went into default, the globe got sucked into the economic vortex. With a lot of the Defense Department, FBI, and intelligence community on forced leave, the country became vulnerable to terrorist attacks. Without the CIA to train the moderate Syrian rebels, Syria fell to al-Qaida.

"After the final American president, Barack Obama, canceled his trip to Asia, that part of the world decided we were weak. China moved quickly to fill the vacuum. Obama grew so disgusted, he spent his final years in office isolated in the White House residence. When he stopped returning the calls of Hasan Rouhani and Bibi Netanyahu, it was only a matter of time before the Middle East went up in flames.

"What is left of the world is being run by Julian Assange from what is left of the Ecuadorean Embassy in London and by some right-wing nut in a cabin in Idaho."

The boy begins to cry. "Papa, stop. You're making me sad. Are all the good guys gone?"

Looking through the gray skies toward the ashen Lincoln Memorial, where an ape sits in Abe's chair, the man replies sadly, "Yes, son."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:40 PM

I cant believe you actually posted that Greg.
The collapse of Corporate Capitalism wont be the end of the world, it will be a new beginning for humanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:46 PM

> The collapse of Corporate Capitalism wont be the end of the world, it will be a new beginning for humanity.

Evidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 04:48 PM

.....Don't you realise what these monoliths stand for....and I include Nelsons Column an the Palace of Westminster
They don't stand for freedom, they stand for exploitation both at home and abroad, they stand for slavery, imperialism, and bloody war!

Most of all they stand for the political status quo.
Let them crumble.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 08:59 PM

Regulated Capitalism (post-FDR, pre-Reagan) worked pretty well. It needed a lot of fine tuning, but had Reagan not got away with rescinding all of FDR's regulations, we'd be in pretty good shape.

I know communists and hard-charging socialists don't agree with this, nevertheless, it did work well.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 13 - 09:36 PM

Could someone explain in simple and non polemic terms what it is about "Obamacare" that explains the degree of hostility? It sounds a remarkably modest innovation.

I don't mean why there might be people thinking it is far from adequate, and that something more like the British NHS might be better, rather than relying on private insurance, but why anyone other than a small fringe thinks it goes too far in that direction?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:14 AM

Obamacare is a remarkably modest innovation, however, insurance and pharmaceutical companies profit from the status quo. Follow the money. These religious fanatics and small government ideologues are just lackeys.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:54 AM

Pharmaceutical companies make big business in European countries of social health care. Of course, somebody has to pay for it, normally those who are somewhat better off but not "too big to fail", and who are thus likely to be opposed to it. This applies to most acts of government, so the "small government ideologues" are likely to be the actual key figures. They exist in all countries, but their notions of "small" usually translate to "smaller than it is here currently" - markedly different even within European social welfare societies. In fact social welfare is a major boost to economy, very welcome to big businesses who typically manage to dodge taxes.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:01 AM

McG,

This entire mess has nothing to do with Obama"care" and has everything to do with Obama... Ya' see, he is the wrong color...

The Republicans have staked their future on a voting base that is a mix of racists, sexists, tin-foilers and government haters...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:23 AM

Could someone explain in simple and non polemic terms what it is about "Obamacare" that explains the degree of hostility?

1. There's no such thing as "Obamacare", which is a Tea Party invention; What we have is the is the Affordable Care Act.

2. The fictitious Tea-Party created "Obamacare"[sic], with its "death squads", "socialized medicine", Government-assigned doctors & all the rest of the mountain of bullshit is what has scared and angered people, not the reality.

Also see this thread 02 Oct 13 - 10:26 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:37 AM

Since everyone now has to have some insurance, including healthy young people who would otherwise ignore it till they wound up in the emergency room at taxpayers' expense, the insurance companies are indeed making money on Obamacare. That, plus hatred of higher taxes, is precisely why the "single-payer option" (i.e., complete federal funding through annual taxes) went nowhere.

What the TP really hates about O-care is that the feds are behind it (they hate and fear Washington), and they claim that it's "socialism" which is about the dirtiest word in American politics other than "liberalism," which the GOP has carefully crafted into a precise synonym (except that "liberalism" more overtly includes the hated and feared gay rights). "Socialism" in this case means that the richer you are, the more you'll be hit with "confiscatory taxes." The TP is revolted by this idea because some of them are rich, those that aren't think they will be or should be, and they think that poor people are poor because they're shiftless and immoral and don't deserve "taxpayer dollars" that just encourage them to have more "welfare kids."

Did anyone notice that the TP managed to cut back the Food Stamp program some weeks ago in the name of "economy"? Meanwhile inefficient waste and the notoriously bloated defense spending roar right ahead.

Many TP people believe that one day the UN will invade America on some trumped-up pretext (I am serious), and since we'll have to fight the Russians and Chinese and Cubans and Mexicans and probably everyone else at that point, we can never have enough weapons.

In the '60s they were a handful of kooks calling themselves the John Birch Society. Now there are millions of them, and they don't give damn about anyone else.

Former (conservative) GOP Congressman Vin Weber was on CNN this morning to say that the TP doesn't want to fund the Federal government *ever,* "because they actually hate government." They don't want a Federal government for anything but defense, law enforcement, and regulation of interstate commerce. Then they'll be "free" to be "decent and God-fearing."

The TP rank and file are ignorant, provincial, willful, fundamentalist, bigoted, arrogant, clannish idiots who are proud to be these things because it's "just common sense." They don't believe in majority rule, because "you do not compromise your principles."

They're an angry, uneducated minority, pandered to and egged on by slightly smarter opportunists in and out of office.

To keep sane, you can tell yourself, "Obama got more votes. Obama got more votes. Obama got more votes."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:42 AM

Greg meant "death panels," not "squads."

Not that it makes much difference.

I saw this TP protest sign: "Obama Lies, Granny Dies!"


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: sciencegeek
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:56 AM

I bumped into some neighbors from down the valley this weekend & mentioned that I was looking forward to retiring next year. An immediate response from them was to imply that somehow Obama would make that difficult if not impossible. WTF???

My immediate rejoinder was to state that it was the Tea Party and Republicans who were the ones I worried about... especially since each time the Republicans replaced a Democratic administration - both local & national- was when my savings & investments were tanked.

When they realized that I wasn't swallowing their "party line", they then resorted to, "WEll, both parties are no good."

SO - if that's the case, why the immediate attack on Obama? And not, against the current gridlock, etc.

While nice enough folks, neither has even struck me as deep thinkers.. and this is just the target population for the current right wing agenda. Lead the sheep to slaughter, and by the time any of them figure it out it's too d*mn late.

Maybe the way to counter these selfish folks is to keep singing Divers & Lazarus, changing Dives to whatever idiot politician is making the most noise.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:23 PM

Panels, schmanels. ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:20 PM

Observations:

A statistic I saw recently says that the richest 400 people in the United States possess one-half of the country's total wealth.

Media tycoon Ted Turner had some 3 billion dollars. He built a sports stadium in Atlanta on his own dime, rather than badgering the tax payers to fund it (as is the case here in Seattle). And he was severely criticized for that. He was also severely criticized because he gave one billion of his three billion dollars to various charities. When he was told that he was "setting a bad example," he responded by saying, "Who in the hell needs that much money!??" And he was severely criticized for saying that!

In a recent survey, people were asked if they approved of "Obamacare." The majority said they were opposed to it. The same people were then asked if they approved of "The Affordable Care Act." The same people who opposed "Obamacare" said they were in favor of the "Affordable Care Act."

They are the same law. "Obamacare" is the name that a lot of people use when talking about the Affordable Care Act.

These are a couple of reasons why I believe that a large percentage of this country's population are severely in need of a good dope slap!

========

I use a power wheelchair to get around the neighborhood. Recently it needed new batteries.

Some years ago I had to have batteries replaced and was appalled at what my local durable medical goods store charged. So I contacted my nephew who worked in a battery store. He came over, looked at the batteries and checked the specs, then said that they were standard marine batteries, the kind you would use in your 36 foot Chris-Craft down at the marina. He told me that they were about $75 dollars apiece, not the $150 dollars apiece that the medical goods store wanted. They only real difference, he said, was the label. All specs were the same. So he got me a pair and installed them for me. Thank you, Tim!

Tim is now living in another city, so I figured that this time I would bite the bullet and pay what the durable medical goods store asked. They came over and installed the new batteries.

A couple of months later, I received a bill from them. My insurance company had paid some $300 dollars for the batteries, which was all they allowed. The durable medical goods company was billing me for an additional $370 dollars!! $520 dollars more than Tim told me they should cost!

That's typical of health care and medical charges in the United States and tends to explain why the health care industry lobbies to keep things just the way they are.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:35 PM

lighter.....I remember the John Birch Society, I think Pete Seeger wrote a song about them....."The Jack Ash Society"?

I remember them to be overtly racist, during the time when I was protesting in favour of civil rights for black people.

I don't think you can equate them with the Tea Party, who seem to be anti politics.....I'm sure I saw quite a number of black faces at their meetings.

Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 01:59 PM

the Tea Party, who seem to be anti politics

Righto- that's why there are so many TeaParty assholes in the Federal House and Senate, the State legislatures, and the State governorships.

Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right.

Righto - like Osama, Pol Pot, Hermann Goering ........


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 03:39 PM

> Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right

I was about to ask "Like Hitler? Pol Pot?" But that would have been unfair! So instead I'll ask, "Like Jeff Davis? Joe McCarthy? Don DeFreeze?"

Anyway, I don't think most of the TPs hate Obama for being black. (They liked Herman Cain.) In their eyes, being a Liberal is far, far worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 06:44 PM

Yeah, Lighter, but being a liberal uppity nigra is about as bad as it gets, no?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:09 PM

Great post, Lighter (10;37AM)... The only slight addition I would like to make to it is this... The incoming Tea Party House freshmen are the wealthiest in history with an average net worth of $1.4M...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:02 PM

And also they're the most ignorant & uneducted, Bobert. What we have in operation is the "Revenge Of The C Track".


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM

Yes, that is a given... These are all silver-spooners... No matter which one you investigate you find that 90% of the Tea Party House Republicans were born rich... Actually, some of them are examples of...

..."the easiest way to make a small fortune is start out with a larger one"...

Not too sure who said that but lotta of these creeps are people who inherited lots and are now down to there last couple mil and want someone, other than them, for their failures so they try to put the blame on poor and low income people???

Mental cases...

Explains a lot...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:40 PM

Anyone who questions the system should be supported, whether from left or right.

Now that, aken , is somewhat daft, and I am sure that on reflection you will recognise that. It all depends on the system and on the questions. The Contras in Nicaragua a few years back were "questioning the system". So was Pinochet. So was Mosley.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 13 - 10:46 PM

The shut down was planned right down to the talking points and secret huge meeting of congressmen by the Koch Bros. back in December 2011.
Koch Ind. has given over 900 million to the cause of defeating, defunding and delaying ACA in the form of Congressional elections, commercials, Lobbying, think tanks, and funding various prosperity & freedom artificial turf groups.
NYT goes into great detail of the plan to shut down the government.
The tea party owned congressmen and Boehner are beholden to this corporate donor more than the people or the USA.

They planned in detail but stupidly forgot Obama was not running again, that the debt ceiling actually ran out in May and Oct. 17 is the catastrophic date in which creditors will actually be stiffed without any remedy except for Congress to vote to continue the US economy. The actual intent was to shut down Obama, the government was not the primary target save for Grover Norquist who says "I want to shrink gov down until we can drown it in the bathtub.


The Koch Bros. have succeeded in what Al Qaida did not succeed on 9-11 and that was to shut down the government and completely and accurately decimate the military. they say "bad Obama, look what you have done. They already have fooled some of the people.




*My last 3 hours on the NIH campus.*

With 32,000 employees at the Bethesda NIH location they call it a campus along with research labs hospital and a class 4 lab.

Not far from bld. 1 I watched employees, supervisors and workers prepare to leave work for an unknown time. Some carried their house plants some carried the emotional burden of having to look into the eyes of kids and parents who were scheduled for treatment or intake on Tue.

One woman in a taut business suit was clearly livid as she walked stiffly so fast that a tall man trying to assuage her could hardly keep up although his legs were a foot longer.

The South American cafeteria ladies in their purple smocks were being picked up by husbands who shared the worried look on their faces.

Fisher House was not going to have any new guests, Some of the five year research studies were going to be compromised and short of being scrapped were going to bear an asterisk in the study to explain the interruption.

Scientists who considered projects at the NIH have dropped by 22% and the best people have balked due to unreliability factors under the drone attacks by the anti science Britebarts and super Christians. Despite choosing a religious director the attacks continue on a weekly basis.

The budget cuts if 1.55 billion added to the new 22% cuts are taking their toll. The pan flu vaccine is incomplete and stopped.

This agency has reduced childhood malaria by 90%
This agency distributed the polio vaccine. This agency found the treatment for muscular dystrophy, not the march of dimes.
This agency is joined at the hip of CDC.

The attacks upon the NIH under Bush's OMB is being taken over by tea party know nothing congressmen. Even the NRA has shut down research into to bullet wounds if only by intimidation. The military has had to shield real research being done because of a NRA bill that prohibits facts garnered by research being used by gun control groups.


Nothing prohibits doctors and scientists from quitting and many will after this shut down. if YOU ARE EMPLOYEED BY THE nih YOU ARE FORBIDDEN TO MOON LIGHT OR TAKE A SECOND JOB. Some people will have to quit for financial reason if they get behind bills by over a month.

By noon on last tue. the last of the last workers were ordered to leave campus. those left to work may be security or folks who feed the animals and doctors tending to the previously scheduled patients.

Some sick people admittedly will be harmed beyond all hope
because NIH is CLOSED - in an emergency please call John Boehner !

but he is just following orders and can not order a vote until his billionaire owner says he can.





THE TEA party finally Knows what they want:

1 RESPECT
2 GRATITUDE
3 HONOR
4 MORE CORPORATE WELFARE.


WHEN ITS ALL OVER THE BITCHING ABOUT NIH WORKERS BEING PAID FOR NOTHING WILL NOT MENTION THE HARM WASTE AND DAMAGE THAT HAS BEEN DONE.


DELAY = DAMAGE + DESTRUCTION : THE TEA PARTY EQUATION OF CONTROL


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 03:38 AM

Yes I see that Mr McGrath, but obviously I am referring to the system which has brought us to the position we are in today.

There is a school of thought which says that during the process of demolition, you use all the tools at your disposal.

This system is incapable of evolution....its effects can only make things progressively worse
for the majority.

In the "good" times, a few crumbs fall from the table.....in "bad" times we suffer in silence or eat dust!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:13 AM

Oh MY!!......Oh my, my, my!!

You're arguing over details, that you were given to argue about, and can't see the why's and what-fore's, of the 'bargaining chips'..that, in reality, are only 'stage props' in the theater!!!

T-H-I-N-N-K L-O-N-G-E-R!!!!

(that's the 'illusion' of partisan politics, that blinds your eyes!)

Come on, give it a shot!
What's this 'con game' REALLY about??

(Hint: I've already told you.)

Until You Guess Again,

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM

Elected by the voters:

http://news.yahoo.com/arizona-de-fuhrer-barton-obama-134942788.html


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 01:22 PM

Too cute by half Mr. Guess Again.

This I believe and know:
The richest 1% fund political campaigns at rates 1000 times higher than any grass or artificial turf roots organization . For example Mr. Gingrich had one single donor. Our richest Casino owner donated more to Romney than any single super PAC.

The gilded age of megalomaniac multi billionaire fiends that James Bond tried to contend with, is upon us all.


Perhaps some of you woke up in the eye of the storm and are about to face a terrifying wind. No matter who you are, you will have to cling tightly to the nearest object no matter how precarious just to hold on a little longer.
The purist who only talks but never does anything and the tea party extremist might both grab ahold of the same branch in hopes they won't be swept away.
You the kind hearted liberal have much in common with the tea partier who is paid by Koch in the sense you both had a lot more opinions before you learned the facts.

The fact is, the essence of Democracy is the craven enemy of the dying Republican Party. In the death throes of a huge organization with crazy fringes and confederate roots the Republicans are more dangerous as they grow more desperate. To win anything they have to trick, distort and deny voting access to the majority. THe heart of the Republic the super wealthy do not want Democracy to interfere with their plans.

Democracy is a good plan and has its Achilles heel just as Capitalism has its faults.

You who supports Democracy are recognized as good. If you are, or have become an unwitting enemy of Democracy you need to a take a good hard look at yourself.

You who thinks you are a genius for seeing people who have tried to cling to Koch money and are abject fools for doing that, are heartless A holes. All that separates "you" from "them" are circumstances. Philosophy be damned when you are fighting to keep a roof above your head and food in your stomach.

After all is yelled and done, you were once like a tea party Ayn Rand fanatic and had hundreds of opinions...until you learned the facts.

In this preamble to Civil War II don't you think it is about time you not revile and not scavenge off your fellow American, no matter how many facts they have yet to understand? Knowing better is not smarter, its just knowing by opportunity and chance.

The "mistaken" will not be taught by arrogance. If that's all you leave them they will have to crash and burn their family to death because they will not trust the Dead End sign you waved in their faces with anger in your face.

I trust we will make it through these times of unmoving incivility wars.
Begin with your own civility, be you a tea party joiner or progressive occupier.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 02:57 PM

What exactly does Johnny Bonehead want to negotiate??? Killing off the Affordable Care Act???

That ain't going to happen and Johnny knows it so...

...what else is on his mind???

I mean, he gets up in front of dozens of microphones every day so if there is something else why doesn't he just spit it out...

No, Donuel's post is 100% on the money... The Koch brothers ordered their minions to a meeting in 2011 and told them that he wanted the government to be shut down...

Period...

End of story...

Someone needs to take the Koch brothers to the woodshed and give them each a good whuppin'...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 05:34 PM

Thank you Bobert and thank you Don Firth.

I have a tendency to state the truth and then go too far like about the mistake invading Iraq or giving away all our money to the banks who lost their shirts/tarps or that Obama would prove to be more of a right centrist than a liberal, you know, going out on a limb until people don't believe a word.

If you don't get what I'm talking about just think of a rich guy fixing a horse race and betting on the sure thing like the horse he poisoned loses.

Trying not to sound paranoid I stated earlier that I have an overactive imagination and was willing to hedge my bets that this whole shutdown has the undercurrent of being a financial coup by billionaires who will risk the people of the US against enormous insurance bet profits off of CDS treasury bonds (bets that the gov will default on its credit.

I am now "nearly" certain this is a real possibility.



1 The Credit default swaps on US Treasury notes are actually tripling from day to day.

2 The gov shut down is no longer about the ACA. The shut down is no longer about the debt (Dems gave the GOP Paul Ryan level budget) The shut down and default are now spoken of in the same breath.

3 The Gov shut down is no longer about any policy in particular except that they say they want something like respect. Why are Dems confused that the repubs don't know what they want? I bet they want big $ even if it sells out the USA.

4 What better time to have a financial coup than when the Justice Dept and the SEC is closed.

HerE it is: I believe the Koch Bros and their friends are willing to bet 20 billion dollars OR MORE that the politicians they have paid for in the house (especially a career bribe taker like Boehner) to shut down the government and let the debt ceiling "technically" fail.

Those who purchased credit default swaps on the US treasury bonds that will have then defaulted, will get 5 to 10 times their investment back.

Bet 10 billion and get 100 billion. Yes Americans will get hurt but remember you are on the world investment stage and you will look like an Oracle for foreseeing the default so far in advance.

Have the big boys like the Koch bros. invested in these CDS on the treasury of the US early and big? I don't know
It is a financial secret like Hedge funds but what is known is that SOMEBODY HAS ! Who exactly I can not know but look for yourself and see what you want to see.
Will you see deliberate investments via CDS or a nervous market selling bonds or nervous nellies buying bonds at larger interest rates from the 1 year to the 30 year note. Watch how when anyone talks about the credit swaps on T bills they are interrupted or shut up quickly. Do moderators wish to avoid a panic? OR is this inside game just sitting there in plain sight, not to be talked about?


Even if the full default of the US does not happen the mega big investors will keep their CDS until it finally does and make billions and trillions collectively.

I first mentioned that this theory is like a Tom Clancy novel - I'm not a fan anyway but he died the day after the post. I will refrain from advising any antidote to the default and profit scheme. Who in their right mind would sell dollars for pesos? Characters like drug lords might, at least in the James Bond action movie version.

Technically I could still be wrong about the corrupt tea partier Congressmen that Koch has paid from the git go, but billionaires will still make huge windfalls on a default, if it happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:46 PM

This shut down was engineered in detail 2 years ago by the Koch Bros. according to the NYT.

The media has said that the overarching question is who is to blame, A or B.
Neither is it the important question or is it really A or B.

The important question is why the Koch Bros decided to take this direction.

I would ask you to educate yourself with 'the Koch Bros exposed' or other independent historically accurate source.

I will give a rough outline about who they are and where they came from. A very unique place indeed.

Their father made his fortune in the 1930's Soviet Union under a direct contract with Joseph Stalin to develop vast oil fields and refineries for Stalin's war efforts.

Upon returning to the US Koch created his own oil refinery corporation and soon had over 200 million dollars (a lot for 1949) seed money for serious capitalization. Father Koch became the largest donor to the John Birch Society. He was a kingpin in the red baiting and the communist scare campaign partly to throw the scent off his early days and part to accuse American blacks as the core of the Communist party with the help of Jews to take over America. As a rich anti communist he associated with J Edgar Hoover and gave Hoover a lot of money and a lot of fear of Martin Luther Kings and other civil rights "communists".

His son's Charles and David grew up in a unique household where segregation was the American way and wealth was entitled to real Americans like their Dad. Dad would say the only thing that makes someone more important than you is what they know that you don't, if you buy what they know you are more powerful than them. The Koch Bros. have taken that lesson to heart and have always relied upon at least 4 and sometimes 5 Think Tanks to retain their fortune and find new ways of increasing it into the future by molding the America that they want as the goose that will give them golden eggs forever.

each of them personally make over20 million dollars a day. Their corporations total well over 100 Billion dollars a year. After saving and investing this money over 45 years their fortune can rent to buy America as a whole and are on the verge with their friends on the Supreme Court like Scalia to stop renting and own America outright with the NEW citizens United which is like the first one but on steroids.

David Koch has been known to have a conscience but Charles is a social psychopath and more dedicated than David. Charles character is best measured by his behavior on a crashed airliner. He was in first class and was about to depart the front exit amid smoke when he pulled the curtain and say people on fire and others struggling to free the wing and rear exits that were jammed. He then replaced the curtain and exited in silence without telling anyone else that an exit was clear up front. He later said he was afraid that other people could have stampeded him if he had told anyone else.


If you have ever watched an hour of FOX cable news 40 minutes out of 60 is dedicated to agenda's generated by the Koch think tanks and given the go ahead to be repeated in the fox echo chamber.
Here are some of the issue the Koch think tanks have spent months on FOX being drilled into the national audience;
social security is bankrupt!!
increase the age to 70 for SS benefits
Opt out of Obama care
resegregate North Carolina Schools (stop forced bussing)
Give social Security to Wall Street to Invest.
Obama is not an American
Have governors ban state public unions
Think tank climate change deniers
Suppression of the vote for blacks and the poor.
Nearly 9 out of 10 political conservative fights waged in this country originate in the Koch Bros think tanks.
I can tell you the names of each tank and the one they were thinking of owning outright but if you are curious you will find them.

Their wish list is to have no taxes, no regulations and social engineering along the lines of 1950 America.

Who the Kochs own lock stock and barrel is becoming more important than what they own.
They currently own 14 Republican Governors, Liz Cheney candidate, Eric Cantor, Paul Ryan, Rand Paul, Boehner, 40 freshman tea party congress people and Senator Cruz to name but a few. The amount of money they got from the Kochs is always less than 100 grand but what they really get in the form of trust funds that are under Koch control is far greater. They own Clarence Thomas and Scalia while Roberts is a close friend but a wild card conservative strategist of his own. He is about to decide if Citizens United should go farther so that owning congressmen and senators will be free of how much $ may be given to them.

They created the tea party with Prosperity for growth
Freedom works under Army and half a dozen other dispensaries of money to hedge their bets for a base that was leaving the GOP.
Spending over 10 billion dollars out of their 3 trillion dollar fortune is like chump change. So far the returns have been working better than ever.

That the Kochs haven't told the GOP or tea party exactly what they want in exchange to reopen the government and pay the debt ceiling (it changes day by day) is very curious indeed but that would be speculation that I put in another post.

Their unique history and father along with 4 trillion that can buy anything their think tanks think up like funding universities and colleges only by signing a contract that professors who are not in accord with Koch philosophies and policies will jeopardize the funds promised to the university. By controlling faculty they own over 100 universities.



I hope you are beginning to see that the shutdown is really a show down between President Obama and the Koch Bros. Obama offends every sense the Koch Bros. feel. They really hate the idea that a black is in the white house. Obama cost them the presidency of Mitt Romney. The Kochs gave enormous amounts of money to Mitt second only to Adelman the casino owner.

Obama is in a sense going up against the John Birch Society KKK in a literal way. If you listened close to Obama today you heard him refer to "extreme elements of the Republican party" and to have them reconsider their dire actions. He was referring to the Kochs since he had already addressed the House republican congressmen in the previous paragraph.

Could someone link the NYT article on the Koch Bros. and the shut down?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:43 AM

I ran the numbers and the plot to make money on US bonds after a default is bogus. Inflation alone would wipe out existing fortunes by a third to three quarters. Not even a multi billionaire could keep holdings in an inflation proof environment.
The mystery continues. Why would a default be sought by anyone other than an enemy of the USA? Confiscation like in Cyprus and Greece couldn't happen here.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:44 AM

Donuel: "That the Kochs haven't told the GOP or tea party exactly what they want in exchange to reopen the government and pay the debt ceiling (it changes day by day) is very curious indeed but that would be speculation that I put in another post."

Here, I'll spare you the trouble......What they want, and the goal for utilizing the 'bargaining chips', long ago anticipated and planned for, that Obama will go for, as soon as he can pull it off with forced 'support' from the wannabe so-called liberals, is none other than the Keystone Pipeline...and without much 'brain straining', you can see that the present climate in the mid east, Saudi Arabia being put in a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' situation with its neighbors, our 'debt', and the 'outcry' for us to 'do something', the time may be at hand...with only minimal opposition....and even 'so-called' limp-wristed, 'liberals' will be rationalizing it away, as Obama's 'second greatest achievement'.... (rolls eyes)....to 'save the economy'!!!??

...and the Bushes and Rockefellers, among a FEW others, will be happy as well!.....and 'so-called liberals' will be proud!!

Now that wasn't too hard, was it?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 05:01 AM

I note with some amusement that Barton can't even spell "Der Fuhrer" (and I omit the umlaut through laziness not ignorance)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:30 AM

You know what blows my mind?

The sheer contempt so many Americans evidently feel for their own government.

That is *so* weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 09:14 AM

> The sheer contempt so many Americans evidently feel for their own government.

Always a factor (remember the Civil War?), but the Modern Age of polarization and all-round anti-federalism can almost be pinpointed to 1968-1975.

At least that's how I remember it.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:15 PM

Charmion: "The sheer contempt so many Americans evidently feel for their own government."

Yes, besides it being a device, for gaining control, and hiding the source of it, things have been done by 'Our Government' that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the 'will of the people'....instead, we are being told as what we HAVE to accept, by BOTH parties, to accommodate the will of the financial moguls who are actually in control....and BTW, the U.K. is not only exempt from it, they are active participants!! The guys 'behind the scenes'(or curtain, if you like), have everybody mistakenly blaming the 'other party', when in fact, the exert control over BOTH of them!..It's only the daft, slow learners, who draw their attention from those party's participation, who are perpetuating the 'divisions' for their own personal aggrandizement!!
There's a few of them on here....but in reality, they are antiques!

...........

In regards to my last post, about the Saudis and the pipeline, if Iran wasn't so pre-occupied with destroying Israel, they'd be breathing down the Saudi's back..who just so happen to 'own' a massive amount of our debt....till we blow them off.....diplomatically, of course, and let them twist in the wind...to fend for themselves...So they are damned if they do help us, with oil, and buying our notes, and damned if they don't capitulate to the Muslim uprisings....the rest of the 'debt' thing, is ONLY because of the Banksters, and paying them off the 'interest'... in regards to the 'debt' ceiling.
All this, by the way, is contrived bullshit....but it IS serving its purpose...but not for what a lot of you may think.....Ah, alas, bullshit political partisan talking points...no wonder no one is paying much attention to the music, anymore...you ain't saying anything!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:14 PM

Lets' do a little review here...

In 2011 when the TeaPubs threatened to allow the US to default they got $1.2T in cuts to social programs outta Obama and gave up...

...not one dime in revenues...

Then when the Teapubs a year later threatened to not fund the government budget they forced Obama into the sequestration and agreed that they would negotiate in the "Super Committee" and then refused to negotiate forcing another $2T more in cuts and...

...not one dime in revenues...

There's an old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me..."

We're on round three and there is nothing left for Obama to give up in cuts... The rate of increase in federal spending is lower now than anytime since WW II...

Fce it, the TeaPubs don't negotiate... They demand...

Fuck 'um... They are the ***takers***... No more...

BTW, the average net worth of a House TeaPub is $1.4M... These are rich people... So much for this salt-of-the-earth grassroots persona that the TeaPubs are pushing...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 01:59 AM

Bobert, You're beating a dead horse. You keep trying to draw people into the division game, and therefore taking their eyes off the 'why's' and 'what for'.....we can all name some group of corrupt 'financiers' for ALL the political agendas, on all sides...left, right and middle..and they all do it for pretty much the same reason. Your obsession with the 'Tea Pubs' and KKK'ers and anything even remotely to the center, of your radical left position, does NOT make them any less corrupt than those funding YOUR position!...Get over it, and do something constructive, besides playing the blame game 'ad nauseum'!..must we subscribe to a new group of people to hate???..or can't we spread anything better to believe in????..or for that fact, have qualities that rise above the hate mongering, that would set us apart, and maybe a little higher???? ...or must we be delegated to the same 'hate energy' of 'the other side'...making us just the same assholes, as you perceive them to be???????????
It's like arguing over whose vomit is better!!!!
Wise up!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 03:30 AM

Don't be silly Fugitive From Sanity. Bobert, as usual, is bang on the money.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 12:18 PM

There is one certainty, and GfS understands it, if we want to see social and economic change in the UK and the US, it can never be achieved by one section over another.
We must have unity against the corporates, and as there are few socialists left anywhere, we on the "left are going to have to compromise more than most.
We have to understand that nowadays we are a weak political minority, due to the unbelievably stupid social changes that we have legislated for, the illegal, immoral wars we have supported and our acceptance of the biggest robbery of all time, the financial crash.
We have been outflanked by the string pullers aided by the media, and have little credibility left.
There is no way that any of us are about to see a decent realistic society, but we should have the intelligence to make a start on bringing one about.

Divisiveness is the worst action. We must start to see that the ordinary folk are just that..."ordinary folk" who have absorbed a different sort of propaganda.

We all want to see a BETTER world.

The real enemy is FINANCE and its front line troops in the Media.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 12:24 PM

Coming from you, that's not much of an endorsement!

..and Bobert is NOT 'on the money'..he is just spewing more party politics.
The convergence of the debt ceiling, and the government shut down was known, and strategies planned for LONG ago...with objectives that gives the appearance that the 'solution' will be one that benefits will be the 'only logical answer'..but in reality, it's just a bunch of contrived nonsense, leveraging the banksters, and made palatable, by their owned, politicians, and the parties, they pretend to represent!
Wake up, and get a life!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:16 PM

That's funny, GfinS... I wrote the same thing at the WaPo and got 77 likes... 10 likes is a lot... 20 is like crazy a lot... 77??? Off the charts... Apparently, people who do keep up with news, understand exactly what I am saying...

Your proclamations are nothing but flagellation and noise...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM

Well, it all goes to show, that there are a lot of ill informed idiots out there! That's what they get for believing the bankster/corporate owned "News Media"!!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 08:17 AM

My God! I agree with Richard on a political point, the end of life as we know it!

Nonetheless, he is absolutly correct.

Bobert has it spot on, and you should stick to the music.

No, seriously, don't give up the day job. Politically you are a non starter!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 10:13 AM

Well, well, well...

Looks as if yesterdays poll numbers have scared Johnny Bonehead and his boys to make a deal... Expect one by the end of the day...

The next 6 weeks will be interesting as the TeaPubs try to extort something - anything - so as to save face for their boneheaded move...

I hope that we revisit the reality that Obama and the Dems have given over $3T in cuts (over 10 years) already and that the stingy TeaPubs have given only $600B (over 10 years) in revenue... I hope that BIG MEDIA doesn't allow itself to be bullied yet again by FOX unNews and allows some daylight on the what really is happening here...

"We want our country back" is a slogan... Not a policy position...

When it comes down to it, the Dems have nothing else to give in terms of spending cuts... Every federal agency is all ready running on fumes... This idea that we could just shut down the EPA is the dumbest thing in the world... We will end up poisoning our country with toxic waste being dumped into storm sewers if we allow the polluters to do what they want... These people have no consciences and would do that in a heartbeat...

Seems that Tea (Tin Foil) Nation is all about this Ayn Rand model... We can't go there... It would be like the United States of Somalia... That is no exaggeration... Not fear peddling or anything like that... It is reality... A lawless nation ain't the answer...

BTW, remember back three or four years ago and the Repubs and the Chamber of Commerce were weeping about all these mean, spiteful regulations that Obama was imposing on them??? So John Daley, then Obama's Chief-of-Staff, invited the Chamber to a meeting and told them to bring with them the regs they didn't like... Remember the outcome??? The Chamber didn't show and after that you didn't hear a peep out of them about mean and spiteful regs...

Face it, the Kochs, the Chamber and the TeaPubs have been running on pure mythology and propaganda... Once it is striped away there is nothing... No ideas... No proposals... No nothing... All brought to you by the party of "No"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: sciencegeek
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM

LOL...

I recently found a copy of I Hate Republicans at the local thrift store... same points being made... but under the George W. administration.

shouldn't laugh, though... it's scary how far those folks will go to destroy our democracy...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 01:03 PM

A consensus does not make a fact!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 01:26 PM

Catch the video of Ted Cruz at the Value Voters Summit this morning.

He got huge applause when he said that Obama is targeting for destruction "every single one of our Bill of Rights."

When several hecklers called for immigration reform, he sneered condescendingly that "It look's like Obama's paid political operatives are out in force" - a good thing, because if "Obama's whole staff" is in the house trying to stop Ted Cruz, they "can't be in Washington working their mischief on the American people." Huge applause.

An "all-powerful and benevolent God" is giving the TP the "strength to stand *strong* in the House or Representatives" to keep Obamacare from killing jobs, forcing people into poverty, and stripping them of health insurance.

You think I'm making this up? I wish.

Just the tip of the iceberg. The crowd, mainly fundamentalists, went crazy.

I never thought Id see the day when Paul Ryan was coming across as a voice of reason.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM

Ted Cruz is a mental case... He thinks the entire thing is about him... Never met a mirror he didn't fall instantly in love with... Face it, he is a creep person...

Actually, on Obamacare, it's imperfect... The only thing I like about it is that it is better than nothing and will lead to single payer in about 10 years... Maybe less... Americans can't stay stupid forever... When they find that they can't get a decent job because our competitors are whupping our butts because they are spending 7-8% of their GNP's on health care and getting better care then we'll move off Base Stupid...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 05:54 PM

I never thought Id see the day when Paul Ryan was coming across as a voice of reason.

And you haven't yet. He's as big a lunatic asshole as Cruz, anmd somewhat more dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 04:18 PM

Observations:

Sensible Republican commentators (and sorry, they do exist) realize this is precisely the wrong way to get rid of "Obamacare".    They note the obvious:    that the GOP must win the next election, and probably the Senate too, to do it .

The GOP, in theory dominated by the Tea Party and therefore against the alleged terrible current abuse of government to oppress the helpless citizenry, is more than willing to fund quite a few areas of government, starting with the military and national parks but there's a long list more.    So it's not government they are against but only the parts they don't like--and they will more than glad to tell us which parts.    So to give in to this is to have not majority rule but rule by a mindless minority.

This one is my favorite:   They claim that one of the main goals is to save taxpayers' money.    Yet the recent House vote on reimbursing federal employees now not being paid was--guess what--unanimous.

So where are those brave frugal souls who want to save the taxpayers' money?    Not one actually had the guts to put his or her name on the line opposing reimbursement.   The most courage they could muster is to abstain.



Face it, the votes of federal employees--and those who realize that government is not, per se, evil--outweigh by a huge margin the views of any allegedly principled voter who is passionate to see government shrunk dramatically, even at the expense of benefits that voter receives from government.

And GOP politicians know where the votes in the general election are--and after having postured for the benefit of the Know-Nothing wing of the party, with its true believers who exert outsized influence in primary season--are more than willing to show us they know where the votes really are. The only question is how long they think they have to posture to cut off a primary challenge from the Right.

But, as Bobert and some others have already noted, shutting down the government, for any reason, is just not a winning election issue. They have learned nothing from 1995.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 04:20 PM

"win the next presidential election"


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:00 PM

Looks like the Senate has forged a compromise that didn't cost anyone very much.

    Deal reached to avoid default and open government
    By ALAN FRAM and DONNA CASSATA
    The Associated Press
    Published: Tuesday, Oct. 15, 2013 - 11:44 pm
    Last Modified: Wednesday, Oct. 16, 2013 - 12:16 pm
    WASHINGTON -- Senate leaders announced last-minute agreement Wednesday to avert a threatened Treasury default and reopen the government after a partial, 16-day shutdown. Congress raced to pass the measure by day's end.

    The Dow Jones industrial average soared on the news that the threat of default was fading, flirting with a 200-point gain in morning trading.

    "This is a time for reconciliation," said Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of the agreement he had forged with the GOP leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

    It was a jubilant moment in the chamber, which on Tuesday was forced to sit back and watch as the effort by House GOP leaders for a bill collapsed in disarray.

    McConnell said that with the Senate accord, Republicans had sealed a deal to have spending in one area of the budget decline for two years in a row, adding, "we're not going back."

    One prominent tea party lawmaker, Sen. Ted Cruz of Texas, said he would oppose the plan, but not seek to delay its passage.

    That was a key concession that signaled a strong possibility that both houses could act by day's end. That, in turn, would allow President Barack Obama to sign the bill into law ahead of the Thursday deadline that Treasury Secretary Jacob Lew had set for action to raise the $16.7 trillion debt limit.

    While the deal could meet resistance from conservatives in the Republican-controlled House, the Democratic Leader, Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California, supports the plan and says her rank and file is expected to vote for it in overwhelming numbers. That raised the possibility that more Democrats than Republicans would back it, potentially causing additional problems for House Speaker John Boehner as he struggles to manage his tea party-heavy majority.

    After abandoning their own plan on Tuesday, House members quietly awaited Senate action, resigned to the likelihood that they would have to back the deal or plunge the nation into default. The only silver lining was the promise that it would be their last vote for the week after three straight weekends in Washington.

    Officials said the proposal called for the Treasury to have authority to continue borrowing through Feb. 7, and the government would reopen through Jan. 15.

    The White House welcomed the compromise and spokesman Jay Carney said the president looked forward to signing it into law.

    Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2013/10/15/5825237/senators-seek-budget-deal-house.html#storylink=cpy


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 04:32 PM

Big deal, Joe. Now we can watch the RepubliClowns go thru this whole idiotic charade again in January.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 05:26 PM

Q.E.D:

NY TIMES 16 October 2013
WASHINGTON — Coming out of a closed-door meeting Wednesday afternoon, in which Speaker John A. Boehner explained to his conference that he would be taking up the Senate deal and likely passing it with the help of Democratic votes, Republican lawmakers were already regrouping for the next fight.

"I'll vote against it," Representative John Fleming of Louisiana said. "But that will get us into Round 2. See, we're going to start this all over again."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 06:01 PM

And what, exactly, did the TP geniuses get out of it?

Essentially nothing but extended media exposure.

Worth its weight in contributor gold!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:02 PM

What Greg said about the next round of insanity...

I have been thinking about this and think it's time for Democrats to start voting in Republican primaries as a means of stopping the extreme right from getting in a position to do so much damage on the country...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Van
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 07:33 PM

Can't we shut it down permanently and save the rest of the world from the shit it throws around? I'll leave it to others to make the list it's too long for just one man.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:09 PM

"Can't we shut it down permanently...?"

I hope you're being cynical... the idea is silly.

I wonder how long the Tea Party and sympathizers can keep up this travesty without admitting what the REAL issues are that they seldom mention.

They want to 'win' in order to put forward policies about taxes, abortion, entitlements, immigration ....etc., and ....somehow ... make the idea of having a black president look awkward. They can't... usually... say these things directly, so they invent improbable schemes to harden their own narrow base and keep their 'jobs' AS muddle-heads.

Sometimes I long for the concept of an Enlightened Despot... this Democracy thing allows a weird bunch to vote... (and I think 'they' kinda agree with me .. for very different reasons.)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:29 PM

> They want to 'win' in order to put forward policies about taxes, abortion, entitlements, immigration ....etc.

Which shows how stupid and crazy they are. The proper way to go about it is formulate bills in committee and put them to a vote on the floor. But the TP positions are generally so radical and moronic that they know they can never win that way.

So they do what they can, because they have nothing (they think) to lose.

A reporter asked one of these self-righteous pinheads a day or two ago what he thought of the fact that the shutdown was making government employees "suffer" over the legally settled issue of Obamacare. The response?














"Well, that's just the price of freedom."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Van
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:01 PM

Bill. Hit the nail on the head. ;) people must think.
I


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:02 PM

""Well, that's just the price of freedom."

LOLOL! Right... as in "The government in its wisdom allows the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 10:50 PM

The employees didn't suffer they got time off now they will be paid. This was done by self proclaimed deficit hawks "fighting waste."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:39 AM

Well, as Senator John McCain said in an interview yesterday, "when you're dealing with people of no intelligence....."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 09:45 AM

Well, as Senator John McCain said in an interview yesterday, "when you're dealing with people of no intelligence....."

I caught that. That seemed rather a bold thing for him to say but I was impressed that he did. He is p*ssed off about this whole thing, kept calling it a fools errand.

Did you catch Senator Cruz claiming victory? What a pinhead.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

> Did you catch Senator Cruz claiming victory? What a pinhead.

You mean a genius. You should watch him work a crowd. He's looking ahead to bigger things - for himself.

And, in fact, people did suffer. The furloughed employees didn't know when (or if) they'd be paid, they haven't been paid yet, mortgages and rents have fallen due, and thousands of small businesses connected with the National Parks lost income.

Huge suffering? Probably for no more than a few. Was the attempt to sandbag a law of the land, while studiously avoiding a thousand real problems like immigration reform and costing the GNP a couple of billion bucks worth it? You be the judge.

"The price of freedom" means what it will take to get these idiots out of office.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM

Indeed, KB. I don't always agree with McCain - hell, I RARELY agree with McCain, but he's intelligent, educated, rational, capable of critical thought and grounded in reality(most of the time).

I suppose I demonstrate my age by considering him and those like him, the "loyal opposition".

It is way past time that those Republicans of intelligence - and there are still such, tho they're currently mostly in hiding, purged the idiots from the party, or at least recognized them for the absolute idiots they are, and said so.

If the crazies thenwanted to then form the American Idiot Party, good luck to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bettynh
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:35 PM

Some random fallout:


NH campgrounds , privately owned but on land within the National Forest, were closed on one of the busiest weeks of the year.

Beer breweries were prevented from distributing new recipes (microbreweries are popular in this part of the country.)

Kng crab fishermen couldn't open their season.

Variious long-term science projects have been damaged. Scientists are re-assessing their positions.

Perhaps most damaging of all, Kelly Ayotte came out smelling of roses. She's articulate, intelligent, and attractive. She's been seriosly discussed as a vice-presidential candidate since she arrived in Washington last January. She's looking mighty fine as a direct contestant against Hillary.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 01:50 PM

So glad to be back at work this morning serving the public!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 04:12 PM

Reportage here (UK) indicates a humiliating climb-down for the Republicans, a substantial opinion swing pro-democrat, and best of all possibly a split between the Republicans and the Tea-potty, so splitting the right-wing vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 04:39 PM

The bottom line: racism.

The shutdown is at the feet of Boehner and Cruz. Let's face the fact that America is still
a racist nation and many white Confederates do not like a black president.

Dick, nothing much Harry Reid could do about that.

Trouble will come up again in January and February.

The Republican robbers want to take away health care, Medicare and Social Security.

Robberpublicans.

Impeach members of the Supreme Court who voted for Citizen's United.

Take the gavel away from Boehner who abused his authority.

Non-cooperation and non-violent resistance is the solution.

Voting is important and hopefully the election won't be stolen again.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 01:07 AM

An unfortunate bit of fallout: Federal employees will get paid for their forced time off, but people who couldn't work because their workplace was within a closed government facility, such as cafeteria workers in Federal buildings, maintenance workers on military installations and people who work in the National Park lodges will not. All part of that $24 billion.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

About right, Art - Since when have Republicans given a fart in a high wind about cafeteria workers, janitors & maids?

Of course, CEO's, Banksters & day traders would be another story.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 10:21 AM

"Since when have Republicans given a fart in a high wind about cafeteria workers, janitors & maids?"

to the affluent, these people are invisible, disposable units that are regarded with annoyance if they presume to assert themselves.

Unless, of course, they belong to the household staff & then they are regarded as possessions that may need to be coddled a bit to keep them in check.

So when we put these people in office, is it any wonder that they feel the public should work for them and not the other way around?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 10:56 AM

"Take the gavel away from Boehner who abused his authority."

ummm... heard that possibility being discussed yesterday. The pundits just looked at each other when asked just who might succeed him. Eric Cantor? I hope not....

I have a vague suspicion that he is holding on because HE knows that there are very few other Republicans right now who could do the job, and the possibility of one of the worst loonies landing the position is truly scary.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 05:24 PM

very few other Republicans right now who could do the job

What job is that? Boner has been an absolute failure as Speaker.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 07:36 PM

He's been a failure 25% because of his own lack of leadership...but 75% because .... you can't herd cats.

And NEW cats who won't even piss in the sandbox would make the best Speaker tear his hair! I really think that he would have been thrown out if he had allowed an early vote to end the shutdown... and NO ONE wanted to see a change of Speakers right now.

You can't just say "Boner failed" anymore than the Republicans can just block everything, then say "Obama failed."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:36 PM

Johnny Bonehead is a coward... So is the rest of the non-Tea GOP caucus...

On another front, David Koch is trying to walk away from his efforts involved in this shutdown and needs to be pressured more by progressives until he quits buying congressmen in states where he doesn't live or do business...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: US Government shutdown
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 12:01 AM

We'll just have to see what comes out of the already pre-arranged 'compromise'(??). This is all a bunch of hooey theatrics, both sides, who are as crooked as a cork screw!
Keystone, here we come!...the 'biggest problem' with that is, it will NOT benefit the American people as 'promised'....just like the Saudi people 'all' benefit' from their oil, huh?

A lot of you guys just ain't seeing it...and keep bickering about the minutia 'argue points' put out by the corporate media.
What a bunch of fucking saps!

GfS


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