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BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?

Songwronger 08 Oct 13 - 06:33 PM
Greg F. 08 Oct 13 - 06:38 PM
sciencegeek 08 Oct 13 - 06:53 PM
Andrez 08 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM
Elmore 08 Oct 13 - 07:43 PM
GUEST 08 Oct 13 - 07:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Oct 13 - 07:53 PM
Bill D 08 Oct 13 - 07:56 PM
sciencegeek 08 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 13 - 08:11 PM
Songwronger 08 Oct 13 - 08:27 PM
pdq 08 Oct 13 - 08:32 PM
Don Firth 08 Oct 13 - 08:49 PM
Bobert 08 Oct 13 - 09:27 PM
Songwronger 08 Oct 13 - 11:37 PM
Rapparee 08 Oct 13 - 11:59 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 13 - 12:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 09 Oct 13 - 12:40 AM
Don Firth 09 Oct 13 - 01:04 AM
sciencegeek 09 Oct 13 - 06:28 AM
Greg F. 09 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM
Ron Davies 09 Oct 13 - 08:40 AM
sciencegeek 09 Oct 13 - 08:52 AM
Bill D 09 Oct 13 - 10:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Oct 13 - 11:32 AM
Jeri 09 Oct 13 - 11:49 AM
sciencegeek 09 Oct 13 - 11:51 AM
sciencegeek 09 Oct 13 - 11:59 AM
Ron Davies 09 Oct 13 - 01:50 PM
catspaw49 09 Oct 13 - 02:02 PM
Greg F. 09 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM
sciencegeek 09 Oct 13 - 03:58 PM
catspaw49 09 Oct 13 - 04:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Oct 13 - 07:07 PM
Songwronger 09 Oct 13 - 07:45 PM
Greg F. 09 Oct 13 - 07:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 09 Oct 13 - 07:55 PM
Songwronger 09 Oct 13 - 10:09 PM
sciencegeek 09 Oct 13 - 11:34 PM
Don Firth 09 Oct 13 - 11:38 PM
catspaw49 10 Oct 13 - 10:30 AM
Don Firth 10 Oct 13 - 02:19 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 13 - 07:19 PM
Songwronger 10 Oct 13 - 09:48 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 13 - 10:03 PM
catspaw49 10 Oct 13 - 10:08 PM
Don Firth 10 Oct 13 - 11:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Oct 13 - 11:27 AM
Songwronger 11 Oct 13 - 06:27 PM
Don Firth 11 Oct 13 - 07:54 PM
Janie 11 Oct 13 - 11:42 PM
Mrrzy 12 Oct 13 - 05:58 PM
Greg F. 13 Oct 13 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,achmelvich 13 Oct 13 - 10:54 AM
Bobert 13 Oct 13 - 12:16 PM
Songwronger 13 Oct 13 - 06:55 PM
Don Firth 13 Oct 13 - 07:38 PM
Bobert 13 Oct 13 - 08:17 PM
Songwronger 14 Oct 13 - 11:37 PM
Don Firth 15 Oct 13 - 12:18 AM
Ebbie 15 Oct 13 - 12:33 AM
GUEST,David E. 15 Oct 13 - 01:03 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Oct 13 - 02:35 AM
Songwronger 15 Oct 13 - 09:46 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Oct 13 - 11:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM
Songwronger 16 Oct 13 - 09:00 PM
Ebbie 16 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Oct 13 - 12:26 AM
Ebbie 17 Oct 13 - 02:06 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 17 Oct 13 - 01:19 PM
Songwronger 17 Oct 13 - 06:28 PM
sciencegeek 17 Oct 13 - 07:00 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Oct 13 - 07:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Oct 13 - 07:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM
Songwronger 17 Oct 13 - 08:26 PM
Songwronger 17 Oct 13 - 08:35 PM
Ebbie 17 Oct 13 - 09:35 PM
Don Firth 17 Oct 13 - 09:47 PM
Songwronger 17 Oct 13 - 10:42 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 13 - 12:02 AM
Ebbie 18 Oct 13 - 02:48 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 18 Oct 13 - 11:28 AM
Don Firth 18 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM
Songwronger 18 Oct 13 - 08:12 PM
Songwronger 18 Oct 13 - 08:16 PM
Bobert 18 Oct 13 - 08:33 PM
Don Firth 18 Oct 13 - 10:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Oct 13 - 11:27 PM
DMcG 19 Oct 13 - 04:26 AM
Don Firth 19 Oct 13 - 01:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 02:37 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 13 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 07:24 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 13 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 09:42 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 13 - 09:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Oct 13 - 10:03 PM
artbrooks 19 Oct 13 - 11:02 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 13 - 11:21 PM
Don Firth 19 Oct 13 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Oct 13 - 12:18 AM
Don Firth 20 Oct 13 - 12:45 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Oct 13 - 01:00 AM
Don Firth 20 Oct 13 - 01:07 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Oct 13 - 01:18 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 20 Oct 13 - 06:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 13 - 07:46 PM
Songwronger 20 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 13 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Oct 13 - 09:50 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM
Don Firth 21 Oct 13 - 07:07 PM
Songwronger 21 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 13 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 22 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 22 Oct 13 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 22 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM
Don Firth 22 Oct 13 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 22 Oct 13 - 03:11 PM
Bill D 22 Oct 13 - 03:43 PM
Don Firth 22 Oct 13 - 04:08 PM
Songwronger 22 Oct 13 - 07:32 PM
Don Firth 22 Oct 13 - 08:38 PM
Songwronger 22 Oct 13 - 09:41 PM
Don Firth 22 Oct 13 - 10:56 PM
Songwronger 23 Oct 13 - 12:19 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Oct 13 - 02:48 AM
Brian Peters 23 Oct 13 - 06:49 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Oct 13 - 04:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 23 Oct 13 - 04:51 PM
Don Firth 23 Oct 13 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 23 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM
Don Firth 23 Oct 13 - 11:24 PM
Songwronger 24 Oct 13 - 06:24 PM
Elmore 24 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM
Don Firth 24 Oct 13 - 07:40 PM
Songwronger 24 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM
Don Firth 24 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Oct 13 - 12:55 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Oct 13 - 01:02 AM
Don Firth 25 Oct 13 - 01:28 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Oct 13 - 01:33 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Oct 13 - 01:38 AM
Don Firth 25 Oct 13 - 01:58 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Oct 13 - 02:39 AM
Don Firth 25 Oct 13 - 02:27 PM
Greg F. 25 Oct 13 - 04:19 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 13 - 04:56 PM
akenaton 25 Oct 13 - 05:45 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 13 - 06:09 PM
akenaton 25 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 13 - 06:56 PM
Songwronger 25 Oct 13 - 07:22 PM
Don Firth 25 Oct 13 - 08:34 PM
Elmore 25 Oct 13 - 08:47 PM
Elmore 25 Oct 13 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Oct 13 - 12:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 26 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM
akenaton 26 Oct 13 - 10:26 AM
Don Firth 26 Oct 13 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Oct 13 - 01:55 PM
Don Firth 26 Oct 13 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 13 - 12:59 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 13 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Oct 13 - 03:41 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 13 - 05:17 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM
Don Firth 27 Oct 13 - 09:27 PM
Ebbie 27 Oct 13 - 10:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 28 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM
Songwronger 29 Oct 13 - 09:35 PM
Songwronger 30 Oct 13 - 08:30 PM
Don Firth 30 Oct 13 - 10:02 PM
Songwronger 30 Oct 13 - 11:17 PM
GUEST 31 Oct 13 - 04:51 AM
Don Firth 31 Oct 13 - 12:58 PM
Don Firth 31 Oct 13 - 01:39 PM
Rapparee 31 Oct 13 - 10:25 PM
GUEST,. 01 Nov 13 - 12:08 AM
sciencegeek 01 Nov 13 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,Nobody in particular 01 Nov 13 - 01:37 PM
Don Firth 01 Nov 13 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Nobody in particular 01 Nov 13 - 03:56 PM
Don Firth 01 Nov 13 - 04:45 PM
Songwronger 01 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Nobody in particular 01 Nov 13 - 06:48 PM
Don Firth 01 Nov 13 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 02 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM
Don Firth 02 Nov 13 - 02:56 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 02 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM
Don Firth 02 Nov 13 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 02 Nov 13 - 09:12 PM
Ebbie 02 Nov 13 - 09:27 PM
Don Firth 02 Nov 13 - 10:03 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Nov 13 - 10:03 PM
Sawzaw 03 Nov 13 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 03 Nov 13 - 12:41 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Nov 13 - 01:31 PM
Greg F. 03 Nov 13 - 02:05 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 03 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 03 Nov 13 - 02:34 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 03 Nov 13 - 03:06 PM
Ebbie 03 Nov 13 - 03:33 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 13 - 03:44 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Nov 13 - 03:59 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Nov 13 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 03 Nov 13 - 05:07 PM
Songwronger 03 Nov 13 - 06:09 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 13 - 08:03 PM
Songwronger 03 Nov 13 - 08:26 PM
Don Firth 03 Nov 13 - 10:20 PM
Songwronger 03 Nov 13 - 11:28 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 13 - 12:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 04 Nov 13 - 06:19 AM
Sawzaw 04 Nov 13 - 07:58 AM
GUEST 04 Nov 13 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 04 Nov 13 - 11:09 AM
Don Firth 04 Nov 13 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 04 Nov 13 - 02:24 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 13 - 03:18 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 13 - 03:39 PM
Greg F. 04 Nov 13 - 05:28 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 04 Nov 13 - 07:52 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 13 - 08:16 PM
Ebbie 04 Nov 13 - 08:28 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 13 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 04 Nov 13 - 09:44 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 04 Nov 13 - 10:15 PM
Don Firth 04 Nov 13 - 11:56 PM
Greg F. 05 Nov 13 - 09:43 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 12:10 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 05 Nov 13 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 01:40 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 13 - 01:46 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 02:54 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Nov 13 - 03:08 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 13 - 03:19 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 05 Nov 13 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Nobdy in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 03:39 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 13 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 04:12 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 13 - 05:01 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 05:30 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 13 - 06:13 PM
Don Firth 05 Nov 13 - 06:14 PM
Ebbie 05 Nov 13 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 05 Nov 13 - 11:42 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 06 Nov 13 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 06 Nov 13 - 12:29 PM
Don Firth 06 Nov 13 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 06 Nov 13 - 12:49 PM
Don Firth 06 Nov 13 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 06 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM
Don Firth 06 Nov 13 - 07:00 PM
Songwronger 06 Nov 13 - 10:07 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Nov 13 - 08:24 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 07 Nov 13 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 07 Nov 13 - 11:00 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 07 Nov 13 - 02:03 PM
Don Firth 07 Nov 13 - 05:17 PM
Don Firth 07 Nov 13 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 08 Nov 13 - 10:07 AM
GUEST 08 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 08 Nov 13 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 08 Nov 13 - 02:06 PM
Don Firth 08 Nov 13 - 02:12 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 08 Nov 13 - 07:45 PM
Songwronger 08 Nov 13 - 08:36 PM
Don Firth 08 Nov 13 - 10:06 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 08 Nov 13 - 10:39 PM
Songwronger 08 Nov 13 - 10:56 PM
Don Firth 08 Nov 13 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 08 Nov 13 - 11:16 PM
Songwronger 08 Nov 13 - 11:44 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 13 - 12:40 AM
sciencegeek 09 Nov 13 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,it doesn't really matter who I am 09 Nov 13 - 10:07 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 09 Nov 13 - 11:03 AM
Don Firth 09 Nov 13 - 01:05 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 13 - 01:09 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 13 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 09 Nov 13 - 09:01 PM
Don Firth 09 Nov 13 - 09:50 PM
Greg F. 10 Nov 13 - 10:41 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Nov 13 - 10:45 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 10 Nov 13 - 10:49 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 10 Nov 13 - 11:32 AM
Don Firth 10 Nov 13 - 12:47 PM
Greg F. 10 Nov 13 - 04:05 PM
Songwronger 10 Nov 13 - 06:41 PM
Don Firth 10 Nov 13 - 08:51 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 10 Nov 13 - 09:11 PM
Songwronger 10 Nov 13 - 09:19 PM
Don Firth 10 Nov 13 - 09:38 PM
Songwronger 10 Nov 13 - 11:45 PM
Songwronger 10 Nov 13 - 11:53 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Nov 13 - 08:52 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 11 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 11 Nov 13 - 12:45 PM
Don Firth 11 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM
Songwronger 11 Nov 13 - 09:13 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 11 Nov 13 - 09:52 PM
Don Firth 11 Nov 13 - 11:07 PM
Songwronger 12 Nov 13 - 12:50 AM
Ebbie 12 Nov 13 - 02:37 AM
Greg F. 12 Nov 13 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 12 Nov 13 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River 12 Nov 13 - 12:18 PM
Don Firth 12 Nov 13 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Noboody in Particular 12 Nov 13 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 12 Nov 13 - 10:54 PM
Songwronger 12 Nov 13 - 11:45 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 13 - 12:00 AM
Songwronger 13 Nov 13 - 01:05 AM
Don Firth 13 Nov 13 - 01:45 AM
Ebbie 13 Nov 13 - 02:30 AM
Ebbie 13 Nov 13 - 02:46 AM
GUEST 13 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 13 Nov 13 - 08:45 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 13 Nov 13 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 13 Nov 13 - 02:04 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 13 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 13 Nov 13 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 13 Nov 13 - 03:22 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 13 Nov 13 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,GUEST Qute particular! 13 Nov 13 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 13 Nov 13 - 04:45 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 13 - 05:00 PM
Songwronger 13 Nov 13 - 10:53 PM
Don Firth 13 Nov 13 - 11:07 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 13 Nov 13 - 11:19 PM
GUEST 13 Nov 13 - 11:55 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 13 - 12:02 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 14 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM
GUEST 14 Nov 13 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 14 Nov 13 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 14 Nov 13 - 12:27 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 14 Nov 13 - 01:12 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 13 - 01:18 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 14 Nov 13 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 14 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 13 - 03:25 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 13 - 03:42 PM
Greg F. 14 Nov 13 - 04:10 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 13 - 05:46 PM
Songwronger 14 Nov 13 - 06:16 PM
Greg F. 14 Nov 13 - 07:01 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 14 Nov 13 - 07:44 PM
Don Firth 14 Nov 13 - 07:58 PM
GUEST 15 Nov 13 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 15 Nov 13 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 15 Nov 13 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,Nobody in Particular 15 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM
Don Firth 15 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 15 Nov 13 - 03:23 PM
Songwronger 15 Nov 13 - 06:21 PM
Songwronger 15 Nov 13 - 06:24 PM
Don Firth 15 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 15 Nov 13 - 06:51 PM
Greg F. 15 Nov 13 - 08:09 PM
Songwronger 15 Nov 13 - 08:10 PM
Don Firth 15 Nov 13 - 10:19 PM
sciencegeek 16 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 16 Nov 13 - 10:42 AM
Songwronger 20 Nov 13 - 09:52 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 21 Nov 13 - 11:10 AM
GUEST 21 Nov 13 - 07:30 PM
Songwronger 13 Dec 13 - 10:32 PM
Sawzaw 14 Dec 13 - 01:03 AM
Don Firth 14 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Dec 13 - 01:58 AM
Don Firth 14 Dec 13 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Dec 13 - 04:26 PM
Don Firth 14 Dec 13 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 14 Dec 13 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Dec 13 - 11:15 AM
Don Firth 15 Dec 13 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Dec 13 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 15 Dec 13 - 04:52 PM
Don Firth 15 Dec 13 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 13 - 11:23 AM
Don Firth 16 Dec 13 - 01:00 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 13 - 01:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 13 - 07:39 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 13 - 07:41 PM
Don Firth 16 Dec 13 - 09:38 PM
Songwronger 16 Dec 13 - 11:40 PM
Songwronger 16 Dec 13 - 11:41 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 16 Dec 13 - 11:45 PM
Greg F. 17 Dec 13 - 09:45 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 17 Dec 13 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 17 Dec 13 - 10:25 PM
Ebbie 18 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Dec 13 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 18 Dec 13 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Dec 13 - 05:03 PM
Don Firth 18 Dec 13 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 18 Dec 13 - 10:15 PM
Don Firth 19 Dec 13 - 12:04 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 19 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 19 Dec 13 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 19 Dec 13 - 10:13 PM
Songwronger 19 Dec 13 - 11:03 PM
Don Firth 19 Dec 13 - 11:40 PM
GUEST 20 Dec 13 - 01:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 13 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 13 - 11:36 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 20 Dec 13 - 01:19 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 13 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 13 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 20 Dec 13 - 02:32 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 13 - 03:37 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 13 - 07:08 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 13 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 13 - 10:46 PM
Don Firth 20 Dec 13 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Dec 13 - 11:12 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 13 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM
sciencegeek 21 Dec 13 - 08:31 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Dec 13 - 12:48 PM
sciencegeek 21 Dec 13 - 02:05 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 13 - 02:06 PM
Don Firth 21 Dec 13 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Dec 13 - 06:56 PM
Don Firth 22 Dec 13 - 07:43 PM
Elmore 22 Dec 13 - 09:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 13 - 03:46 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 23 Dec 13 - 10:22 AM
Don Firth 23 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 23 Dec 13 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 13 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 23 Dec 13 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 13 - 02:35 PM
akenaton 23 Dec 13 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,sciencegee 23 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 13 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 23 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,gillymor 23 Dec 13 - 04:53 PM
Don Firth 23 Dec 13 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 23 Dec 13 - 11:47 PM
sciencegeek 23 Dec 13 - 11:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Dec 13 - 12:28 AM
Don Firth 24 Dec 13 - 12:32 AM
sciencegeek 24 Dec 13 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Dec 13 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 24 Dec 13 - 10:32 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Dec 13 - 10:55 AM
Don Firth 24 Dec 13 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 24 Dec 13 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Dec 13 - 04:00 PM
sciencegeek 24 Dec 13 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 24 Dec 13 - 07:23 PM
Don Firth 24 Dec 13 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Dec 13 - 03:29 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM
sciencegeek 25 Dec 13 - 08:12 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Dec 13 - 12:16 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 13 - 01:04 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 13 - 01:16 PM
sciencegeek 25 Dec 13 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Dec 13 - 02:24 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 13 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 25 Dec 13 - 07:49 PM
Don Firth 25 Dec 13 - 09:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Dec 13 - 01:48 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Dec 13 - 03:46 AM
Don Firth 26 Dec 13 - 01:10 PM
Don Firth 26 Dec 13 - 02:27 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Dec 13 - 03:46 PM
Don Firth 26 Dec 13 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 26 Dec 13 - 06:27 PM
Don Firth 26 Dec 13 - 07:05 PM
Elmore 26 Dec 13 - 07:10 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 13 - 03:18 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 13 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 13 - 04:37 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 13 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 13 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 13 - 06:20 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 13 - 08:17 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 27 Dec 13 - 11:10 PM
Don Firth 28 Dec 13 - 01:03 AM
Don Firth 28 Dec 13 - 01:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Dec 13 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Dec 13 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 28 Dec 13 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Dec 13 - 04:16 PM
GUEST 29 Dec 13 - 07:35 PM
Sawzaw 29 Dec 13 - 08:48 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 29 Dec 13 - 11:00 PM
Don Firth 30 Dec 13 - 10:04 PM
Songwronger 02 Jan 14 - 10:42 PM
GUEST,gillymor 03 Jan 14 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 02:07 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 02:26 PM
Don Firth 03 Jan 14 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 04:54 PM
Songwronger 03 Jan 14 - 05:45 PM
Songwronger 03 Jan 14 - 06:56 PM
Don Firth 03 Jan 14 - 06:59 PM
sciencegeek 03 Jan 14 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 10:31 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 03 Jan 14 - 10:56 PM
Don Firth 03 Jan 14 - 11:05 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 12:44 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 11:11 AM
Don Firth 04 Jan 14 - 02:09 PM
sciencegeek 04 Jan 14 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 04:00 PM
Don Firth 04 Jan 14 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 04 Jan 14 - 09:11 PM
sciencegeek 05 Jan 14 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Jan 14 - 01:06 PM
Don Firth 05 Jan 14 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 05 Jan 14 - 06:38 PM
Don Firth 05 Jan 14 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 14 - 01:36 AM
Don Firth 06 Jan 14 - 02:16 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 14 - 02:22 PM
Don Firth 06 Jan 14 - 02:49 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 14 - 05:25 PM
Don Firth 06 Jan 14 - 06:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 14 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Jan 14 - 11:02 PM
Don Firth 06 Jan 14 - 11:21 PM
GUEST,gillymor 06 Jan 14 - 11:33 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Jan 14 - 03:09 AM
Don Firth 07 Jan 14 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 01:35 AM
Don Firth 08 Jan 14 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 03:12 PM
Don Firth 08 Jan 14 - 03:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 05:06 PM
Don Firth 08 Jan 14 - 06:10 PM
Don Firth 08 Jan 14 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 10:55 PM
Don Firth 08 Jan 14 - 11:13 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 08 Jan 14 - 11:26 PM
Don Firth 09 Jan 14 - 12:12 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Jan 14 - 12:37 AM
Don Firth 09 Jan 14 - 01:30 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Jan 14 - 04:18 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Jan 14 - 04:27 AM
Don Firth 09 Jan 14 - 02:58 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 09 Jan 14 - 10:14 PM
Don Firth 10 Jan 14 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Jan 14 - 07:13 PM
Don Firth 10 Jan 14 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 10 Jan 14 - 07:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 11 Jan 14 - 12:19 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 14 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 11 Jan 14 - 07:29 PM
GUEST 12 Jan 14 - 02:36 PM
Songwronger 14 Jan 14 - 07:20 PM
Sawzaw 21 Feb 14 - 12:20 AM
Songwronger 01 Apr 14 - 07:18 PM
GUEST,mg 01 Apr 14 - 11:28 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Apr 14 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 02 Apr 14 - 02:46 AM
Greg F. 02 Apr 14 - 09:00 AM
Songwronger 02 Apr 14 - 10:47 PM
Greg F. 03 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM
GUEST 06 Apr 14 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 06 Apr 14 - 11:26 PM
Stilly River Sage 06 Apr 14 - 11:47 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Apr 14 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM
DMcG 08 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Sawzaw 03 Jun 14 - 06:47 PM
Don Firth 03 Jun 14 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,Sawzaw 04 Jun 14 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,anectodes aren't evidence 04 Jun 14 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,sciencegeek 05 Jun 14 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,sciencegeek 06 Jun 14 - 09:03 AM
GUEST,Guesr from Sanity 06 Jun 14 - 05:56 PM
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sciencegeek 07 Jun 14 - 03:47 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 07 Jun 14 - 10:36 AM
Songwronger 22 Jul 14 - 10:44 PM
Songwronger 22 Jul 14 - 10:59 PM
Don Firth 22 Jul 14 - 11:05 PM
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Don Firth 23 Jul 14 - 12:25 AM

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Subject: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:33 PM

It went into effect a week ago. Has anyone signed up?

Is your monthly premium higher or lower than it used to be?

Is your deductible higher or lower than it used to be?

Is your level of coverage greater or less than it used to be?

Do you get to keep your old doctor(s)?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:38 PM

Fuck off, asshole.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 06:53 PM

I'm one of the fortunate folks with health insurance through my employer, though this was not the case for the first ten years when working elsewhere.   How about you?

And for those who are not American and/or are unfamiliar with the provisions of the law:

The Affordable Care Act includes numerous provisions that take effect between 2010 and 2020. Policies issued before 2010 are exempted by a grandfather clause from many of the changes to insurance standards, but they are affected by other provisions.[17][18] Significant reforms are listed below, most of which take effect by January 1, 2014:

    Guaranteed issue prohibits insurers from denying coverage to individuals due to pre-existing conditions, and a partial community rating requires insurers to offer the same premium price to all applicants of the same age and geographical location without regard to gender or most pre-existing conditions (excluding tobacco use).[19][20][21]
    Minimum standards for health insurance policies are established.[22][23][24][25][26]
    An individual mandate[27][28] requires all individuals not covered by an employer sponsored health plan, Medicaid, Medicare or other public insurance programs (such as Tricare) to secure an approved private-insurance policy or pay a penalty, unless the applicable individual has a financial hardship or is a member of a recognized religious sect exempted by the Internal Revenue Service.[29] The law includes subsidies to help people with low incomes comply with the mandate.[30]
    Health insurance exchanges will commence operation in every state. Each exchange will serve as an online marketplace where individuals and small businesses can compare policies and buy insurance (with a government subsidy if eligible).[31] In the first year of operation, open enrollment on the exchanges runs from October 1, 2013 to March 31, 2014, and insurance plans purchased by December 15, 2013 will begin coverage on January 1, 2014.[32][33][34][35] In subsequent years, open enrollment will start on October 15 and end on December 7.[36][37][38]
    Low-income individuals and families whose incomes are between 100% and 400% of the federal poverty level will receive federal subsidies on a sliding scale if they purchase insurance via an exchange.[39] Those from 133% to 150% of the poverty level will be subsidized such that their premium costs will be 3% to 4% of income.[40] In 2013, the subsidy would apply for incomes up to $45,960 for an individual or $94,200 for a family of four; consumers can choose to receive their tax credits in advance, and the exchange will send the money directly to the insurer every month.[41] Small businesses will also be eligible for subsidies.[42]
    Medicaid eligibility is expanded to include individuals and families with incomes up to 133% of the federal poverty level, including adults without disabilities and without dependent children.[43] The law also provides for a 5% "income disregard", making the effective income eligibility limit for Medicaid 138% of the poverty level.[44] Furthermore, the State Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) enrollment process is simplified.[43] However, in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, the Supreme Court ruled that states may opt out of the Medicaid expansion, and several have done so.
    Reforms to the Medicare payment system are meant to promote greater efficiency in the healthcare delivery system by restructuring Medicare reimbursements from fee-for-service to bundled payments.[45][46] Under the new payment system, a single payment is paid to a hospital and a physician group for a defined episode of care (such as a hip replacement) rather than individual payments to individual service providers. In addition, the Medicare Part D coverage gap (commonly called the "donut hole") will shrink and be completely closed by January 1, 2020.[47]
    Businesses who employ 50 or more people but do not offer health insurance to their full-time employees will pay a tax penalty if the government has subsidized a full-time employee's healthcare through tax deductions or other means. This is commonly known as the employer mandate.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Andrez
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM

Oh not this guy posting again. What did that famous Dalek say? Exterminate! Exterminate! and dont engage with this crap discussion either.

Cheers,

Andrez


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Elmore
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:43 PM

The damned government better keep its hands off my Medicare.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:45 PM

Stop calling it Obama care. It is THE AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE ACT. The republicans made up that nasty title hoping to put some stink on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:53 PM

I would assume that if it works well, the term "Obamacare" wil express gratitude towards Obama, as the founder of a system that ordinary Americans will value.

If I were Obama I imagine I'd feel rather pleased to hear it called that.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 07:56 PM

"Is your monthly premium higher or lower than it used to be?

Is your deductible higher or lower than it used to be?

Is your level of coverage greater or less than it used to be?

Do you get to keep your old doctor(s)? "

All people are doing right now is **SIGNING UP**! It will take awhile for everyone in line to GET a plan....like a 1st run movie.
No one actually has coverage until Jan1... why not wait awhile before starting a 'survey'?

and....like Greg F said...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM

What do you expect from the guy who thinks the AFC = genocide... he must be under the impression that health insurance is a life threatening situation.


if he took that worldwide test in the AP report, he'd drag the average score for US adults into negative numbers...lol


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:11 PM

Much of the American population are in dire need of a good dope slap!!

Starting with Songwronger!
Hating Obamacare, loving the Affordable Care Act
By David Horsey
6:00 a.m. EDT, October 8, 2013

Americans hate Obamacare but love the Affordable Care Act. That is the big story from one of America's more reliable sources of information, Jimmy Kimmel.

Mr. Kimmel, the comedian who hosts ABC's late night talk show, "Jimmy Kimmel Live!" posted a camera crew on a street in Hollywood and had them interview a random sample of Americans. The question put to these people was "Which do you support, Obamacare or the Affordable Care Act?"

Of those who ended up featured in an appallingly hilarious clip on Mr. Kimmel's show, not a single one knew that Obamacare and the Affordable Care Act are one and the same thing. All but one of the interviewees expressed dislike for Obamacare and gave a variety of reasons for hating it: It is socialist, it has holes in it, it forces everyone to buy into it, it is anti-American and -- I'm not making this up -- it will lead to gun prohibition. They like the Affordable Care Act, however, because it is, well, affordable.

Mr. Kimmel's stunt illustrates a problem at the core of the argument over health care and most other contentious issues in this country: Huge numbers of voters are simply ignorant. Either they simply do not pay attention to public affairs or they uncritically accept all the spin thrown at them by partisan politicians and pundits. This is what has given us the weird phenomenon of big majorities of Americans expressing support for the individual aspects of the Affordable Care Act, even as many of them insist they hate Obamacare.

Republicans, Fox News and radio talkmeisters like Rush Limbaugh have done an expert job demonizing the health care plan from the day it was brought before Congress in 2009. The Democrats got it passed into law, but they ran away from it in the 2010 election. In the process, they not only lost control of the House of Representatives, they lost control of the conversation.

So, here we are now with the government shut down because tea party Republicans are still trying to kill Obamacare, even as thousands of Americans are inundating government websites with queries about how to sign up for one of the health insurance exchanges that kicked into gear last week. The Affordable Care Act is fast becoming a popular and permanent reality in American life, but fantasies about the evils of Obamacare continue to cloud the minds of inattentive citizens from Hollywood to Hampton Roads.

One woman who vehemently condemned Obamacare while singing the praises of the Affordable Care Act was asked by Mr. Kimmel's merry pranksters if she thought an informed electorate is vital to a healthy democracy. The woman answered with a firm, "yes" -- making herself look like an idiot, not only to the television audience, but to the bigger audience who have seen the clip online.

However, that was the one answer she got right. An informed electorate is essential to our democracy. If there is any hope for spreading enlightenment, though, it rests with our comedians -- guys like Mr. Kimmel, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. They are almost the only truth tellers who may be able to grab the attention of the gullible, oblivious crowd.

For our republic, laughter is not only the best medicine; it seems to be the only antidote to spin.
---------
Two-time Pulitzer Prize winner David Horsey is a political commentator for the Los Angeles Times. Go to latimes.com/news/politics/topoftheticket/ to see more of his work.

Read more: CLICKY
Respectfully submitted,

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:27 PM

No wonder Firth's information is always laughable; he gets it from an actual comedian. Now if we could just outlaw hydrogen dioxide. It kills thousands every year.

So no one has gone to the Obamacare calculator page and done the math? No one has been notified of changes? Here's one who has:

ObamaCare Our premium goes from $110.00 to $812.69 per month

He mutters something about "no dental either," so this is an inferior plan to the one they have now.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: pdq
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:32 PM

The correct name of this act is The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA) so calling it ObamaCare saves people about 30 characters in writing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 08:49 PM

Songwronger, that "comedian" you are so contemptuous of conducted interviews. And what he found turned out to be very much in the nature of gallows humor.

It was serious enough that it was written up by two-time Pulitzer Prize winner David Horsey, a political commentator for the Los Angeles Times.

Considerably more reliable and authoritative that the excrement you keep extruding onto this web site.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 09:27 PM

Listen, ya'll... I hate the Affordable care Act... But the only thing that I hate more is not trying something... That was and is the TeaPublican plan... Do nothing!!!

Obama went to the Republican caucus early and asked them for their help and ideas... They sat on their hands...

So the Dems, afraid that the Repubs would jump on them real hard if they proposed a sane program of single payer found themselves negotiating with themselves trying to get that last Senate vote and thus we ended up with...

...a Republican plan that privatizes payment thus adding 15% to health care right off the top...

This sucks... I hate it because it ain't going fix much and the wrtongman hates it because he hates black people, especially those who might end up in his Whites Only House...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:37 PM

Bobert says the Democrats gave us Obamacare so the Republicans wouldn't "jump on them real hard." And his needle's stuck on the black thing again. Obamadope is strong stuff.

But back to real life:

North Carolinians Shocked By The Size Of Insurance Premium Increases Caused By Obamacare

Oct. 7, 2013

Across North Carolina, thousands of people have been shocked in recent weeks to find out their health insurance plans will be canceled at the end of the year – and premiums for comparable coverage could increase sharply.

One of them is George Schwab of Charlotte, who pays $228 a month for his family's $10,000 deductible plan from Blue Cross and Blue Shield of North Carolina.

In a Sept. 23 letter, Blue Cross notified him that his current plan doesn't meet benefit requirements outlined in the Affordable Care Act and suggested a comparable plan for $1,208 a month – $980 more than he now pays.

"I'm 62 and retired," Schwab said. "This creates a tremendous financial burden for our family.

"The President told the American people numerous times that… 'If you like your coverage, you can keep it,'" Schwab said. "How can we keep it if it has been eliminated? How can we keep it if the premium has been increased 430 percent in one year?"

...Michael Hood, 46, who lives near Winston-Salem, is another of the Blue Cross customers who is suffering sticker shock after receiving a recent renewal letter.

He and his wife, who is expecting their third child, now pay $324 per month for a plan with a $10,000 family deductible. The comparable plan suggested by Blue Cross for next year would cost $895.27 per month with an $11,000 family deductible. Their annual payment would rise from $14,000 to $24,000....

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/10/north-carolinians-shocked-by-the-size-of-insurance-premium-increases-caused-by-obamacare

A unipolar fascist government now controls Washington DC. Obama and the "opposition" have joined forces to give us the ruinous program mockingly named The Affordable Care Act. I've seen dozens of stories like the ones above, and I was just wondering if anyone here has had first-hand experience with Obamacare yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Oct 13 - 11:59 PM

I pity the GOP, and especially the TPers, in next year's election.

Even here in Deep Scarlet Country I hear that it's time to toss ALL of 'em out of Congress and to start over with people who would actually work for the people of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 12:27 AM

Is that the Affordable Care Act? Or is that Blue Cross / Blue Shield?

For many years I had Blue Cross / Blue Shield at a fairly nominal premium, but it wasn't until I needed it that I got thoroughly screwed over. I had to raise sufficient hell with them and threaten legal action before they did right by me. I cancelled my policy with them and went with another insurance company.

Blue Cross / Blue Shield is ranked 243rd in the nation, according to the National Committee on Quality Assurance.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 12:40 AM

Another mindless and utterly predictable thread by the troll Songwronger.

I'm sure he can find horror stories - all from those red states where the governors won't extend Medicaid - they're the ones dropping these low-income folks into the hurt of expensive health care.

No context. As usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:04 AM

For Your Information:
From the
WASHINGTON STATE OFFICE OF THE INSURANCE COMMISSIONER
The Affordable Care Act –What it means for you

Individuals and families
• Children can't be denied health coverage if they're sick
• No out-of-pocket costs for preventive services
• No cap on lifetime benefits
• Young adults can stay on their parents' plan up to age 26
• Seniors' prescription drug "donut hole" closing
• No out-of-pocket costs for seniors' preventive Medicare services
• Expanded coverage for early retirees

Coming in 2014:
• Most people must have health insurance by 2014 or pay an annual fine of $95 or up to 1% of your income, whichever is greater
• No one can be denied health coverage if they're sick
• You can buy a health plan through Washington's Healthplanfinder
• All individual and small employer health plans will cover essential health benefits
• There's help if you can't afford coverage:
 Subsidies for individuals earning up to $45,960 and up to $94,200 for a family of four
 Medicaid expansion for childless adults who earn less than $15,856

Small employers (1-50 employees)
• Small businesses are not required to offer health insurance, but if they do, they could get a tax rebate:
 Up to 35% today
 Up to 50% in 2014

Large employers (more than 50 employees)
• Large employers will pay a penalty, starting in 2015, if they don't offer meaningful and affordable health insurance to their employees
• A plan is considered unaffordable if it costs more than 9.5% of the employee's household income or if it pays for less than 60% of covered health care expenses.
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 06:28 AM

Hey, Wronger... all you did was show that Blue Cross sucks...

under the AFC, those families can shop around for a better deal and qualify for subsidies to help cover the cost if needed.

They now pay $3888 a year for what sounds like a hospital plan and one that doesn't meet the minimum standards for coverage at that. One of those "you play ball with us and we'll shove the bat up your arse" plans.

Could the AFC be better... of course! And you can thank the Republican Party for not doing their part to come up with a single payer system that treats everyone equally. Insurance companies are constantly playing one group against another and making sure that come out on top.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM

I pity the GOP, and especially the TPers, in next year's election.

No need. They'll come out of this fine; the idiot electorate will still love them and forget all about this within 4 months.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:40 AM

"unipolar fascist government...."

Well, just think, it could be worse--could be a bipolar fascist government.

Wonder just what the difference would be.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 08:52 AM

"unipolar fascist government...."
Well, just think, it could be worse--could be a bipolar fascist government.
Wonder just what the difference would be.

I guess it would like comparing Mussolini to Hitler... greedy SOB vs. nut job ... bad news either way.

The Tea Party & conservative right have taken way too much from the fascist playbook... the big lie, malicious propaganda, creating "enemies" to use as scapegoats... while they conduct criminal behavior and seek to destroy a free society.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 10:14 AM

My family opted out of Blue Cross years ago when their premiums increased as their coverage decreased. If N. Carolina has no options to change to a sane plan, that is not the fault of the Affordable Care Act. A few states (meaning: their right-wing officials) are dragging their feet about cooperating.... they will learn what the people think by Nov. of 2014.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:32 AM

Mussolini versus Hitler? Not a pleasant choice - but not a difficult one either. A bit like would you sooner lose an eye, or two eyes...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:49 AM

It's both fascinating and disgusting to see one question manipulated into another political fight, but that's the sort of people we have here now.

As for the subject (please forgive me), there are different types of religious (private) schools. I know about Catholic and Muslim ones. Presumably, there are others.

Because there is no official state religion, and none may become official, there couldn't be any one religion taught. There are religions that are popular in certain areas, and I know the prayer-in-school issue has come up a lot and some places/schools defy the Constitution, but they're not kosher. Many people immigrated to the USA to get away from persecution from various religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:51 AM

Mussolini versus Hitler? Not a pleasant choice - but not a difficult one either. A bit like would you sooner lose an eye, or two eyes...


Actually, I would go with "None of the above" for my write in choice.
We already fought one world war and got rid of 2 out of 3... Stalin was no better and did more harm to millions of innocent victims than even Hitler's death camps. Truely sick SOBs.

The conservative right would have us turn into a dog eat dog nation - since they think their wealth will shield them. But they are in a fool's dream, because they are stuck on the same planet as the rest of us and it is getting smaller every day. The richest may be able to get by, but the rest of the fools are going to be holding one stinky bag at then end.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:59 AM

Jeri... are you sure you posted to the correct thread?

What has affordable health care have to do with religion taught or not taught in schools?

The only possile correlation between the two that I am aware of is how some religious organizations feel wronged by the requirement to provide comprehensive health care options to employees.

Which is another reason to push for single payer insurance... it's then nobody else's business what health option you chose.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 01:50 PM

The way I figure it, the bipolar fascist government would tell you one day that there were no laws;    the next day the Gestapo would arrest you for breaking laws you had been told didn't exist.

Then it seems SW would finally have something to whine about.

As it is, since as we know there is a $5 fine for whining, he should be just about bankrupt by now.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:02 PM

Songdickhead.......Our insurance is going up, but it goes up every year. My wife works for a Catholic hospital chain and they DID change the plan structure which will actually work out better for the young and healthy and the part-timer folks. And guess what? Over a certain salary you pay more! Plus there are no stipulations about birth control and abortions, just the same ones the law has in it.

Because of my health problems we have always opted for the higher tier and hence more expensive plan where we pay more in premiums and less out of pocket. The other new plans have different levels.   Next year, including dental and vision add-ons our plan will cost $540./month. This is less than 1% of Karen's gross pay.

Early in the year I was newly diagnosed with Myeloplastic Dysplasia Syndrome, basically a form of Leukemia which will always end badly at some point down the road. But there are chemo treatments which I started and they help me live better and longer (although they really suck during "chemo week"). Every four weeks the cost of Docs and treatments and blood tests is $13,385. For that month we pay $160.

You do the math. Now take you broke-dick jadrool self back under the rock and have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 02:07 PM

Amen, Spaw! What you said.

(Can you forward your message to the broke-dick jadrool TeaPublican assholes in Congress?)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 03:58 PM

gee, Spaw... sorry to hear about your health issues... but good that your spirits are up.

the health system needs plenty of fine tuning, but as long as the conservatives hang on to their all or nothing - preferably nothing- attitude, it will be slow going.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 04:06 PM

BTW, that should be less than 10% not 1%......typo and failure to pruufreed.

I wish it were 1%!!!


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:07 PM

Yeah a monthly salary of $54000 did sound a bit too impressive. Though of course there are some fat cats who'd see it as poverty...

Strewth, but I'm glad we've got "socialized medicine" here... I wonder what my premiums would be with my health history over the last few years?

Still the main thing is the treatment quality, so long as you can get it. And I see spaw's as good with the well timed invective as ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:45 PM

Blue Cross does come off rather badly in the stories right now. It looks as if they were the first major company to contact customers about rate increases related to Obamacare. To Blue Cross's credit though they were providing the man in the video with a good rate, until the "Affordable Care Act" made them increase (their words, if you listen to the man reading from the letter).

In the future people like catspaw just won't be allowed to live. Death panels and all that. There will always be doctors for the wealthy, but no insurance plan will cover endless outlays.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:54 PM

Yo, ShitWringer - shove your fairytale "death panels " up your ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 07:55 PM

Always remember, "only in America".   

The rest of the developed world looks on and pities you...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 10:09 PM

Howard Dean admitted that death panels exist. He was head of the Democratic National Committee.

Obamacare sucks. Conservatives have said all along that it does, but liberals have defended it, for various reasons. I think my favorite is that if the American people are made to suffer under Obamacare, then eventually we'll accept an insurance system that's wholly run by the government. This from the "loving" liberals who criticize conservatives for being heartless. Millions will die under Obamacare, be imprisoned for non-payment, lose their homes, but it's all for the greater good, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:34 PM

Hey Wronger... millions are dying NOW! Some to age related illnesses, some to accidents and the rest to various diseases and health issues.

Did you have the impression that the AFC meant miracles and immortality? And that family you keep referring to is paying out close to 12 thousand dollars every 3 years and will still have a 10 thousand deductible if they ever need to make a claim. Plus continue with their premiums.

It's the system we've had so far that is killing people and driving families into bankruptcy... the 20 millions currently uninsured Americans... the working poor who have no employer health insurance, sick leave benefits or a pay check that covers all the bills. While insurance companies make handsome profits with little accountability.

as for death panels... that's what the insurance companies have been doing for decades... every time they refuse coverage to someone with a pre-existing condition or refuse to pay for treatments or preventive medicine.

It's the conservatives who are fighting to keep this rotten system going, instead of working to fix the problems. And fools like you that keep preaching their lies as if it were the gospel. You are the sucker, Wronger.   You've swallowed the con... hook, line & sinker.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Oct 13 - 11:38 PM

From PolitiFact.com:
The health care law rations care and denies treatments.

This has been a favorite attack line by critics who suggest that a panel of bureaucrats are making life and death decisions. But the health care law rations care no more nor less than the current health care system does. For evidence, critics have pointed to the Independent Payment Advisory Board, something the law introduced as a means of controlling costs for the Medicare system. But the board's parameters are very narrow. It only applies to Medicare. It kicks in only when spending outpaces certain benchmarks. And it can only make system-wide recommendations to rein in future spending. Congress can overrule the board, and the law specifically states that the board may not "ration care" or increase costs for Medicare beneficiaries.

Death panels.

This falsehood, our 2009 Lie of the Year, started after an early draft of the bill sought to allow Medicare to pay for doctors' visits in which patients discussed end-of-life care, such as living wills. The critics labeled it suicide counseling. Conservative superstar Sarah Palin amped up the debate in August 2009 by declaring on her Facebook page, "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care." But there was never any panel like that in the bill. Recently, Palin has defended her comments, pointing to the Independent Payment Advisory Board as a death panel. Either way, the claim is ridiculously false and earned a Pants on Fire.
So for some unfathomable reason, Howard Dean joins Sarah Palin and Songwronger in running toward the horizon with their asses on fire!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:30 AM

Hopefully in the future people like Songdickwad will not be allowed to live. Ignorance and stupidity along with bigotry and vilent behavior will be reasons to cull off those poor souls (like Songdickwad) who cannot and will not see truth but only lies which they actively embrace.

Enjoy the Coke and the smile Dickwad......You never know when your time is at hand.


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 02:19 PM

It occurs to me that if Obama and the "Fascist American government" is really as bad as he claims it is, and considering the fact that every time he comes to Mudcat, the IP address of his computer is logged in, it would not be at all difficult to track him down. His time may be shorter than he thinks it is.

So it things are really that bad, I'd say his ass is grass!!

Don Firth

["IP of his computer" yes-Texas
]


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 07:19 PM

So we may see if the NSA (Obama's answer to the Gestapo) is on the job. . . .

Don Firth

[Why does that not surprise me?]


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 09:48 PM

want Medicare extended to all.

Obama doesn't. The Republicans don't.

Obama got out and actively stumped for this ball of crap. It's just revised Romneycare and Hillarycare--giveaways to the insurance companies.

The most odious part of Obamacare is that it gives the I.R.S. oversight of your healthcare. The Internal Revenue Service. The thug collection arm of the federal government. Yes, people have lost everything due to medical crises in the past, but now, if you don't pay your premiums, the I.R.S. will send a SWAT team to deal with you.

Under Obamacare there will be higher premiums, feds kicking down your door if you don't pay, and death panels.

And Obama sold this to you. After he said he would expand Medicare. That's why I voted for him the first time, because of his Medicare promises. Now he is "signalling" Republicans that he's open to cutting Social Security and Medicare.

Not only does Obamacare need to be scrapped, Obama needs to be impeached.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:03 PM

The usual wagonload of dingo's kidneys.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 10:08 PM

All just complete crap lacking in any semblance of truth. What a total limpdick............


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Oct 13 - 11:20 PM

Chicken Little Songwronger seems to be standing in a shower of acorns. He keeps running around in circles and shrieking, "I must post this on Mudcat!! I must post this on Mudcat!!"

And, of course, he blames everything on President Obama.

Warning:   racial hatred rots your brain, Schlongwronger.

The Straight Scoop.

There seems to be plenty of time to work things out amicably.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:27 AM

From what I've. Read it seems evident is that extending Medicare, and setting up a system where private insurance didn't have a stranglehold on medical provision would have been very much Obama's preferred solution, But American politics made it impossible, and you've got is the best he could push through in face of entrenched opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 06:27 PM

Obama didn't encounter opposition. He lied. He said he would give us a benevolent government healthcare system, then he adopted the worst of the Republican proposals. He lies on every single topic.

And now the culling of the elderly will begin:

Thousands of Medicare doctors fired

Neurosurgeon says Obamacare worst thing since slavery

Plus, the "liberal" media is gearing up to launch a campaign to sell Obama's DeathCare to America:

Will Obamacare become plot fodder for CBS' Hostages and Under The Dome? A $500,000 grant awarded this week to USC Annenberg Norman Lear Center's Hollywood Health & Society program certainly suggests it's a possibility. In the latest push to get Tinseltown to promote President Obama's Affordable Care Act, the decade-old program has received the money from the private California Endowment to give Hollywood producers, writers and execs details about the newly launched health insurance initiative. "Our experience has shown that the public gets just as much, if not more, information about current events and important issues from their favorite television shows and characters as they do from the news media and online resources," said Hollywood Health & Society's Martin Kaplan in a statement today. "This grant will allow us to ensure that industry practitioners have up-to-date, relevant facts on health care reform to integrate into their storylines and projects."

Obamacare Angles For Starring Role On Primetime TV

They're telling you that your entertainment will now be loaded with pro-Obamacare propaganda.

Sad state of affairs.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 07:54 PM

Songwronger reminds me of the comment about "Nobody can clear an area faster than a trapeze artist with diarrhea!"

He cranks it out faster than it can be hosed off!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Oct 13 - 11:42 PM

Yeh Bill. The absolutely insane NC Assembly opted to not expand Medicaid and also opted out of a State run health exchange. The result is not pretty.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Oct 13 - 05:58 PM

Not signing up - the "tax" is cheaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 10:04 AM

So die - not our problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 10:54 AM

neither mussolini or hitler as bad as fr. fintan stack!

and as someone above said - if you americans* could only realise how ridiculous you are with your stupid gun laws, crazy medical system and world wide domination fixation.....and why are you all so afraid of a real alternative to a broken system that only benefits the 1%?

*obviously not all of you - but enough of you do keep falling for the electoral appeal of dangerous neoliberal wreckers. however, i must confess i did believe obama when he said he would close guantanamo.

the rest of the world expects far better from you (and england)than this.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:16 PM

Interesting article in the Charlotte Observer today on the point that Janie made... 25 states with Republican governors are punishing their poor because they hate having a black man in the "Whites Only" House...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 06:55 PM

As usual Bobert can't get his mind off of skin color. Must suck.

The $95 "tax" is for the first year only. After that it will be calculated in percentages and will be very harsh. The two-digit opt out (not $100, but $95) was designed to sneak this pile of shit past the young. They'll skip the health insurance mandate and pay the fine at the end of the first year, then they'll get crushed at the end of the second, just as Obama leaves office.

The states not participating in the expansion of Medicaid stinks, but if we really have a free-market economy, then shouldn't those states be able to offer LOWER rates once they have dozens of insurance companies competing against one another to get enrollees? No government interference, undercutting, lowering prices. It will be interesting to see how this turns out.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 07:38 PM

". . . shouldn't those states be able to offer LOWER rates once they have dozens of insurance companies competing against one another to get enrollees?"

One would think, but it never works that way. We have free and open competition between insurance companies now, and no matter how you slice it, people get royally screwed on premiums--or benefits--or both NOW.

I've had plenty of experience with the way health insurance companies work

A little government oversight and regulation could rectify all of that.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 08:17 PM

Ain't me that can't get my mind off skin color, wrongman... It's 25 Republican governors, including Pat McCrory here in NC... Half a million poor will go uncovered because McCrory and his white Republicans in the statehouse don't much like black folk, especially if its a black president... You can go thru as many self righteously indignation hissy fits as you like but they won't change the facts here...

The New South has turned back to the Old South...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 11:37 PM

In 2014, The Obama Dictatorship Will Be Complete

...Within the 2500 pages of the comically-named Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act is cached the 2014 establishment of the Independent Payment Advisory Board. Nominated exclusively by the president...

...In short, "the Board's edicts ...become law without congressional action, congressional approval, meaningful congressional oversight, or being subject to a presidential veto." Moreover, citizens will have NO authority to challenge the Board's pronouncements in court, for ObamaCare "...specifically states that the Secretary [of Health and Human Service's] implementation of IPAB's proposals is not judicially reviewable." Therefore a group of presidential, POLITICAL appointees will have the practical power of shaping and imposing upon the American public, the laws of the land! For in addition to creating edicts loosely attached to Medicare and its myriad applications, in 2015 the IPAB will be permitted to impose price controls, taxes and "...ration care for all Americans whether the government pays their medical bills or not!" Thus even the Medicare stipulation will no longer be a practical deterrent to the Board's authority.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/in-2014-the-obama-dictatorship-will-be-complete/

So, the 15-member Advisory Board will be pulling laws out of its collective ass. Claiming to be concerned about our "health" was just an act. Obamacare is a smokescreen to implement tyrannical rule. And you can kiss your Medicare goodbye.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:18 AM

This is the straight scoop on what appears to be one of Songwronger's major sources of "information:"

Clicky.

The "Western Center for Journalism" also publishes "World Net Daily."

The main crusade of these web sites is to promulgate "trash Obama" propaganda. No lie is too outrageous, and how low they are willing to stoop has yet to be plumbed!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 12:33 AM

"...the 15 member board will be tasked with preventing per-enrollee spending in Medicare from growing faster than the specified target rate."

Wikipedia: "The Independent Payment Advisory Board, or IPAB, is a fifteen-member United States Government agency created in 2010 by sections 3403 and 10320 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act which has the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality.[1] Under previous and current law, changes to Medicare payment rates and program rules are recommended by MedPAC but require an act of Congress to take effect. The new system grants IPAB the authority to make changes to the Medicare program with the Congress being given the power to overrule the agency's decisions through supermajority vote."

Oh, yes. Very scary.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 01:03 AM

I usually stay away from "under the blue line" because people are just too rude down here, but, there are times when I weaken and every time I do I somehow end up reading through something like this thread and I wonder... do people like Songwronger and Bobert actually exist, or are they stereotyped caricatures of extreme opposing views typed in by some ghost writer just to keep people arguing? I know, I know, just "f*ck off" because I'm a troll, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 02:35 AM

You know it's rather ironic...but the Supreme Court rules that Obamacare is a really a tax...and the irony of it is, taxes and financing is supposed to come up through, from the House.....as in "Let's pass this, so we can find out what's in it"....
...and Bobert??? You're NOW saying you don't like Obamacare?????????

Does that mean you finally read it, as I did??....OR, you were wrong before???..or are you wrong now??....or you weren't one of the 'elite' who was exempted from it, because it was sooo good???

It's amazing, but to pass it, Obama had to make exemptions for some of those who voted for it!!!..Meanwhile, big pharma, and insurance companies, lobbied HEAVY for it.....and then the 'so-calleds', pretend that they either hate Fascism, or that this isn't it!

..and guess what???.....I'm not so sure that the Republican's controllers are really THAT much against it, either!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 09:46 PM

Strange that we should both notice that caricature aspect of Bobert.

As far as the IPAB, wikipedia says it "has the explicit task of achieving specified savings in Medicare without affecting coverage or quality."

Fine. Obama had the explicit task of closing Guantanamo's torture chambers. And he swore he would never sign the NDAA, but he did.

Point is, the chances of the IPAB carrying out some task that actually benefits Medicare recipients are next to nil in today's lawless climate. As things are now, it takes an act of congress to change Medicare. Under Obamacare it will take the whim of a 15-member board. And there can be no judicial review of the board's actions. The only way to reverse one of its decisions will be to get a supermajority vote of congress. Does anyone honestly think congress would vote against the insurance industry, simple majority or otherwise?

So what we have here is Medicare going from inviolate (takes an act of congress to change it), to an unelected 15-member board doing what it damn well pleases with the program. And Obama ran on an "austerity" platform, and the Republicans want to kill Medicare, so what the hell do we think is going to happen to the program?

That's rhetorical. We all know what's coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Oct 13 - 11:03 PM

...and before it's all over, he will sign the Keystone pipeline, as well...this stuff has been brewing for several administrations now...nothing has changed,,,EXCEPT people's PERCEPTION...and the willingness to look the other way, while losing your freedoms, and our country's principles to trade them in for totalitarian corruption.
Thank you, partisan idiots! Your 'adamant' perpetuation of distraction, has aided in fucking us all over!.......(and all this time you thought you were 'winning something'!!!....for free, nonetheless!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM

OOOHHH Bobert!!????

I re-iterate...

...and Bobert??? You're NOW saying you don't like Obamacare?????????

Does that mean you finally read it, as I did??....OR, you were wrong before???..or are you wrong now??....or you weren't one of the 'elite' who was exempted from it, because it was sooo good???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:00 PM

Obamacare and the assault on workers' health benefits

Developments in two major US cities underscore the anti-working class agenda underlying the Obama administration's Affordable Care Act (ACA), popularly known as Obamacare.

On Monday, Detroit Emergency Manager Kevyn Orr announced that health insurance is being eliminated for retired city workers under age 65 and replaced with a $125 monthly stipend to use toward purchasing coverage on the insurance exchanges set up under the ACA. Retirees over 65 will be moved to Medicare....

The essential aim of the ACA is rapidly emerging. Behind the talk of providing coverage for the uninsured, Obamacare was devised from the outset as a means of dismantling the employer-based system of health insurance that for decades guaranteed a basic level of health care for tens of millions of workers in the US. While Obama's counter-reform will still leave some 31 million people uninsured, it will dramatically reduce health care costs for private and public employers by hiking workers' out-of-pocket costs and slashing their benefits....

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/10/16/pers-o16.html

So, retired city workers in Detroit will lose their health insurance and be given 125 bucks per month to find their own policies. Good luck with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Oct 13 - 09:21 PM

I might suspect that SW and GfS are each other's alter egos- but nah. Believe it or not, SW writes better. :)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 12:26 AM

Easier than addressing the issues, huh, Ebbie?....and Bobert just got called on his 'changing attitudes'....(maybe next he'll be thinking of being a KKK Tea Partier'!...ya' never know with 'them far left 'so-called' liberal southerners!!)...All they need is a black Grand Poo-bah, head of the KKK, and he'll come running!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 02:06 AM

The current version of Obamacare is flawed, no doubt about it. We would have been much better off going with a single payer, patterned after Medicare.

However. This was all that could be gotten at this time- the GOP can take a bow for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 01:19 PM

taken from Oct. 8 from Bobert:

Listen, ya'll... I hate the Affordable care Act... But the only thing that I hate more is not trying something... That was and is the TeaPublican plan... Do nothing!!!

Obama went to the Republican caucus early and asked them for their help and ideas... They sat on their hands...

So the Dems, afraid that the Repubs would jump on them real hard if they proposed a sane program of single payer found themselves negotiating with themselves trying to get that last Senate vote and thus we ended up with...

...a Republican plan that privatizes payment thus adding 15% to health care right off the top...

This sucks... I hate it because it ain't going fix much and the wrtongman hates it because he hates black people, especially those who might end up in his Whites Only House...

B~

So... I have to ask... what the heck are the 'wronger & GfS going on about? Or is this just more of their distortion of the facts to start an argument?

The best that has been said about the Affordable Care Act is that it is a start... plenty of work still needed to make it better. And a d*mn sight better than what has been there up to now - the insurance industry getting fat while milking the American consumer for all they could. That's what for profits do - make profits first, take care of their customers a distant second.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 06:28 PM

No. Obamacare is worse than what we had. Under Obamacare a person's premiums and/or deductible will go up (more money for the insurance companies), and quality of treatment will go down. We would have been better off sticking with what we had and passing legislation to cap premiums/deductibles, cap hospital overcharges, etc. The man who posted at the link below sums up how I feel about Obamacare:

Obamacare is the new Federal Reserve, doing the opposite of what it claims

We can't see what happened to us one hundred years ago, and we can't see what is happening to us now. A century ago, a string of calculated bank failures convinced us to give away the power to control our money, which immediately led to World War I, and the sequence of perpetual wars and economic crashes that have followed ever since.

Today, the passage of Obamacare has created a situation much worse, in which it has become absolutely illegal to think for yourself. Like one of those toxic psychiatric drugs, it is about to disfigure the American psyche permanently.

You no longer can do the things you know are good for your health, but instead you must obey what they say is good for your health, even though you know it is not. To disregard or ignore these disastrous orders is now a criminal offense.

Today, the world is scrambled in a jumble of deliberately false policies and bad outcomes with no avenue of appeal or correction. While we're focusing on one disaster, another creeps up on us undetected, and then another, and another, and another. False flag fatigue has turned our will to mush, unfathomable and irremediable frustration saps our strength, and the people supposed to give us our answers only exacerbate our distress with their pathetically criminal misrepresentations.

As with the creation of the Federal Reserve and the income tax in 1913, the creation of unconstitutional, law-ordered health care expenses that are inexplicably coupled with a higher deductible on government-mandated insurance policies assure that most people will pay more money for less care, and guarantee that an already impoverished populace will quickly become both sick and broke.

The Federal Reserve concept promised to bring financial stability to America but brought only runaway inflation and boom-and-bust cycles which robbed the people of their wealth. Today's dollar is worth less the five cents of what it was worth in 1913. Obamacare promises to improve health care for all, yet it will cost much more money, deliver much less care, and result in many more needless deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:00 PM

oh my god! a tax to provide basic health care... horrors. We should just tax people to fight wars based on imaginary weapons of mass destruction or to safeguard our vested overseas interests.
Get real!

Every time an uninsured person goes to the hospital ER, they can't be turned away and someone has to pick up the tab. And that's all of us who are insured... we've been the ones ultimately paying for keeping the current system afloat.

As for increases in premiums... there are choices out there and assistance available. And piss poor insurance policies will whither away when the public figures out where the good deals are.

And we need to make the whole system better... not whine like little spoiled children.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:44 PM

""and Bobert??? You're NOW saying you don't like Obamacare?????????""

""Strange that we should both notice that caricature aspect of Bobert.""

Utter bollocks!

Bobert hasn't changed his view of health care one iota. He is merely saying what the rest of the Western world is saying, that Obama got the best deal he could, against overwhelming Republican opposition to the idea of giving a shit about their fellow countrymen, not the deal he should have got, if any of those Republicans had a) two working brain cells and/or b) One ounce of humanity.

I repeat GfS, stick to the music!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 07:52 PM

""So what we have here is Medicare going from inviolate (takes an act of congress to change it), to an unelected 15-member board doing what it damn well pleases with the program.""

What that committee can do is very clearly delineated you prat, and if they overstep the bounds of that mission statement, of course they can be held to account.

You really need to stop believing in agenda driven crap less believable than Marvel Comics.

Of course, you probably do believe in Marvel Comics. They are aimed at your intellectual level, as is Tea Party propaganda.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM

""No. Obamacare is worse than what we had.""

Bollocks again!

What you had was 47 million Americans with no health care, and those who did have health care paying ten times as much for it as we get in the UK for a tiny percentage of our income while working, and being refused care if they have a pre-existing condition, for which we are covered without limit.

You are a fool Songwronger, among a nation of many similar fools.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:26 PM

Obamacare will be a great success at killing off the poor and funneling more money into the coffers of the insurance companies. I expect we'll soon be up to British standards.

NHS death rate is one of worst in the West: Patients 50% more likely to die of neglect than in US


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 08:35 PM

And the number of uninsured in America is expected to shrink to 31 million, but the GOOD NEWS is that they will now be committing a crime by not having health insurance. The federal government will be able to penalize them (sorry, I mean "tax" them) by deducting the "tax" from their meager paychecks. Try to top that with your NHS, nancy boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 09:35 PM

Here is what is posted to James on James's web site. THIS is the website of a man you admire?? (NOTE: October 11, 12, 13 is past.)(NOTE: I missed finding out about the HUGE FEMA Setup in Washington DC. Wronger, no doubt, did.)

At 7:05pm on September 28, 2013, 14300 said…

    James - The Truckers going to DC on Oct. 11,12,13 are walking into a boobytrap.   There is a HUGE FEMA Setup for DC all the month of Oct. 2013 with 286K foreign troops+ tanks and a whole lot more. They have been prepping for the month of Oct. since July. WHO picked these dates for the Truckers to strike in Oct?? The Truckers are being set up as a false flag terrorism attack on DC Whitehouse. I was a trucker myself. I am with them but don't want to see the truckers get the blame for this. I believe a couple of trucks will be set-up with some kind of radioactive explosives - compliments of the evil Gov. to go off as close to the White House as possible. I'm not kidding. The Truckers really need to move this to a date in November. I am not a Gov. spook - but a truly concerned ex-trucker and patriot. Trucks that have HAZMAT licencing would be most suspect as the ones carrying the explosives since they don't have to check in at weigh stations. The Illuminati have got this already set up to use against Americans and truckers will get blamed for this. They really need to move the date to Nov. The Illuminati love to have number symbology - look at the numbers: 10,11,12,13 and the Gov. is frothing at the mouth already saying that "There WILL be a terrorist act . . ." The only reason they "know that" is because "they are the ones orchestrating it." James is there any way to get this info to the truckers ASAP?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 09:47 PM

"The New World Order" is a well-known and totally debunked conspiracy theory, Songwronger.

You are really scraping the bottom of the septic tank now!!

==========

Gradually--VERY gradually--the American colossus lumbers toward becoming a civilized nation.

Many European countries and a fair number of South East Asian countries have been there for some time now. E.g., a fair number of Americans fly to Thailand or other countries you might never suspect because they can get procedures like hip replacements for far less that it would cost in the U. S., done in modern hospitals by European-trained doctors, along with follow-up physical therapy, while staying in a place very much like a resort.

In fact, even when you add air fare to and from Thailand, the total bill is a good bit less than what they would have to pay in the U. S.

In France, there is a special corps of doctors who make house calls!! In many other countries, also, doctors will make house calls. Extremely rare in the U.S.

These systems are either single payer or paid for through taxes.

When a European was shaking his head over the cost of health care in the U. S., an American challenged him by saying, "But you folks pay much higher taxes than we do."

"Yes," agreed the European, "But look at what we GET for it!"

President Obama goes through Hell and High Water trying to bring a modicum of civilization to the United States—for the good of ALL its citizens—and look at how the Republicans, the Tea Party ding-bats, and characters like Songwronger and Goofus react!

Slither back into the cave, you Neanderthals!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 17 Oct 13 - 10:42 PM

The posting from earlier equates the Federal Reserve with Obamacare. Both do the opposite of what they claim. Whatever else the man believes, he's right on that.

I don't know what the problem is with you "liberals." You say the planet's overpopulated. You say that humans are creating some kind of "global warming" even though the planet's cooling off. You say people are using up resources, breeding indiscriminately, need to die off and so on.

Well, Obama's GIVEN you the tool to cull the population. Obamacare. So grow some balls and use the goddam tool. You're all so giddy now, saying, "A few years of this and they'll HAVE to accept government healthcare," but Obamacare IS government healthcare. And the purpose of the program isn't to HEAL people, it's to RATION (deny) CARE. Like they do in Britain. Those people over there live under a Nazi-sympathetic monarchy and think the royals actually CARE ABOUT THEIR WELL-BEING! lolololol

Anyway, Obama's got his meatgrinder up and running, now all you have to do is feed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 12:02 AM

Songwronger, if you really believe all the nonsense you've been posting, you have a serious psychological problem.

My "liberal" viewpoint comes from looking at the world and at events, seeing what's there, and then making up my own mind.

I don't need conspiracy theory blogs to tell me what to think.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:48 AM

"...they'll HAVE to accept government healthcare," but Obamacare IS government healthcare." Wronger

What the HELL do you think Medicare is? For more than 70 years the most successful governmental program we have.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 02:53 AM

And, Songwronger, you need to be rather more careful in your links like the one to the Daily Mail about NHS rates being 50% higher than in the UK than the US. Firstly, in typical Daily Mail fashion, they have changed 45% into 50% because it sounds worse, then the study is not comparing like with like - the UK system takes everyone into account, whereas the US excludes everyone who hasn't the health insurance to get into hospital in the first place, then they have gone for the shock version of the figure: x cases per thousand is the same information, but is rarely as dramatic. I don't the figures in this case, but if the casualties for some risk went from 1 in a million to 2 in a million, you can be dramatic and say it has doubled, or you can say that it remains almost negligible: everything depends on the story you want to tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 11:28 AM

""NHS death rate is one of worst in the West: Patients 50% more likely to die of neglect than in US""

Yeah! Because they are far more likely to get into a hospital than they would be in the US, where most of them would cash in on the streets or in the hovels the poor are confined to.

Even idiot conspiracy theorists in the UK don't consider the Mail a reliable source.

So it must be like a bible for the US tinfoil hatters, aand your use of pejorative terms such as ""nancy boy"" speaks volumes about you, you sick bastard.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 01:07 PM

For Songwronger's education (obviously a fruitless project), the Federal Reserve Bank is not some recent conspiracy. It was started by Alexander Hamilton in 1791, and its charter was signed by George Washington. It was re-upped in 1913 in an effort to stabilize the economy and be a "lender of last resort" in precarious economic times.

It is NOT some sort of evil conspiracy theory that manipulates the economy to favor members of the "Bilderberg Group" or foster the policies of "The Illuminati."

Leave the conspiracy theory and Right Wing blogs alone for a while and read some history.

Don Firth

P. S. "Nancy boy," eh? That tends to explain why Goofus seems to think Songwronger is the bee's knees.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:12 PM

Earth to Firth. The Federal Reserve was founded in 1913. There have been several national banks, but they were always desolved after the need passed. Not the Federal Reserve. Americans are less educated now, and most don't see the danger of centralized banking.

And the identical story about the NHS appeared in the Telegraph. I don't know which rags you Brits believe in, but just type in the headline and you'll see the story everywhere.

And Medicare is being dissolved. The US has health insurance for the elderly, but it will be dismantled now that we have Obamacare. From the World Socialist Website:

The US budget deal: A new stage in the attack on the working class

...In his press conference Thursday morning, President Barack Obama made clear that the focus of the Democrats and Republicans will now turn to these programs [Medicare and Social Security]. "In the coming days and weeks," he said, "we should sit down and pursue a balanced approach to a responsible budget, a budget that grows our economy faster and shrinks our long-term deficits further."

Obama added, "The challenges we have right now are not short-term deficits; it's the long-term obligations that we have around things like Medicare and Social Security." As a result of the massive cuts already implemented, he said, short-term deficits have already fallen significantly.

Thus the government shutdown and threatened debt default have been used to establish the political conditions for the imposition of massively unpopular cuts to Social Security and Medicare, while making these cuts somehow appear "rational" and "moderate."


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:16 PM

The WSWS article:

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/10/18/pers-o18.html


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 08:33 PM

My daddy used to say "the biggest fool in the room isn't known until he opens his mouth"...

The wrongman has opened his mouth...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 10:23 PM

As I said, Songwronger, "It (the Federal Reserve Bank) was started by Alexander Hamilton in 1791, and its charter was signed by George Washington. It was re-upped in 1913 in an effort to stabilize the economy and be a 'lender of last resort' in precarious economic times."

And like I also said, trying to educate a conspiracy theory aficionado like you is a hopeless endeavor.

For heaven's sake, before you reveal the full extent of your abysmal ignorance, LOOK IT UP AND LEARN WHAT'S REAL before you shoot your mouth off!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Oct 13 - 11:27 PM

Oh boy...another bunch of hooey coming from Firtho the Frotho.
The 'Federal Reserve Bank, in it's present incarnation, is not even 'Federal' as in the government. The 'Federal Reserve' as we know it today, is a consortium of PRIVATE BANKERS/BANKS. It is about as 'federal' as 'Federal Express'! They lend us the money they print for a price(interest)..as of the present, 46 cents of every dollar, is 'owed' to them for 'interest'. The practice of them printing money, and then buying their own notes, to pay it off, is just another form of printing fiat money. Inflation, follows, that practice with a vengeance!
These guys OWN the politicians, both sides, of whom you think are so wonderfully 'liberal' OR 'conservative'. When you 'claim to subscribe' to either of these, you are being played for a fool!...but then, some of you wouldn't know the difference!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 04:26 AM


And the identical story about the NHS appeared in the Telegraph. I don't know which rags you Brits believe in, but just type in the headline and you'll see the story everywhere.


And so? I'd would expect the Telegraph not to change 45% to 50%, but otherwise I see no reason why it shouldn't be the same story, since it is essentially a report of a TV program which is a report of some research, so there is layer upon layer of spin here. The issue is not whether what is said is factually true, but whether it actually means what it appears. And every newspaper, TV program, media outlet, government spokesperson, medical researcher and all the rest would like you to interpret the facts their specific way. So we need to be on our guard against such spin. And, as a rule of thumb, anything reported as x% more or less than something else needs to be treated with grave suspicion. If the figures are reported as it 'was X per million and is now Y per million' you know both the rate of change and how frequent it is, but if only the rate of change is reported you cannot work out the frequency, so key information is missing.

What rags do us Brits believe? In my case, and I am sure in the view of many others, all and none, though some, like the Daily Mail, are only rarely front runners on issues of substance.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 01:49 PM

Goofballupagus, the only froth around here is around your mouth. You might try reading up on the subject before you proceed to display your ignorance.

AHA!!

And scroll down to "History." Read it! And you'll find that I am right. Alexander Hamilton DID suggest the idea of a Federal Reserve System and in 1791, George Washington signed it into law.

It was in and out and back in again over the next hundred years or so, then signed into permanent law by Congress in 1913. So it was deemed essential for national financial stability early on.

You obviously flunked Civics class in high school. You DID go to high school, didn't you?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 02:37 PM

You moron!
At that time, money was backed by gold, then later silver.. AND MINTED BY THE GOVERNMENT...not contracted to private banks, using vague 'promises' about a portion of interest charged, paying off promissory notes, for the printing of money.. The revenues, that then, funded to government was collected by tariffs, not by 'income taxes' designed to pay for the printing of money, and the interest charged for it!!...with the IRS ensuring that the bankers got paid their interest, even before a dime went for funding the government!!! That's why we have to keep on 'borrowing'..because the 'debt' will NEVER be paid off, as long as they keep printing worthless money, and charging us interest to print it!!
Once again, you re-write history to suit yourself and your nonsensical political notions.

Oh, and by the way, the major holders of all those notes, usually get screwed over, in the long run, if they exert too much pressure, or fear, that they've become, or are becoming too powerful!!

I thought that how the Japanese, got screwed, when they were buying up a lot of our cities, back in the eighties and early nineties, was sheer evil genius. The Saudis are in line, though the Chinese might be more of a problem...Oh, and another 'BTW', the American people are huge holders of T notes....and the screw is bearing down on them as well. They use 'inflation'..just as they did with the Japanese.
It's all a bunch of financial manipulations, designed to line the pockets of the international bankers, as a step to gaining control and power.

Oh, and the IRS is the enforcement arm of the bankers, and THAT'S who you want running Obamacare?????
Get a clue, it's NOT about 'health care'!!

If you don't know this, then do some simple(or not so simple) homework....and you really should keep your illiterate opinions to yourself.....that way people won't find out how really dumb you are!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 03:28 PM

You have the over-simplistic conspiracy theory version of the story.

Fer Chrissake, idiot, READ A BOOK NOW AND THEN!!

I'm not going to waste my valuable time trying to educate someone who has less intelligence than a case of toenail fungus.

It's all out there. Encyclopedias. Economics textbooks. All you need to do is read authoritative material and stop getting everything you "know" from Right Wing blogs or just saying "Me too! Me too!" whenever Wrongsonger posts something.

(Egregious waste of protoplasm. . . .)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 07:24 PM

What a cheesy cop out! Why don't you just admit that you had it wrong??
It won't be the first time, and probably not the last!
You like to hide behind your pseudo-erudite rhetoric, but the FACT is, it's just the way you deceive people, and delude yourself, along with it. Your rap once again, just doesn't hold up. It's false...got it? FALSE!
You might just consider being honest, for once in your life!

Stick to the composers.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:09 PM

Because I DIDN'T get it wrong, you moron!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:42 PM

Oh you didn't???????????? LMAO!!

Back then 'Reserves' meant Gold reserves....
oh..and you did get it wrong....the 'Fed' as we know it today, would have not even been considered back then.....Look up some quotes by Jefferson about Central Banks...and what was really considered a threat, worse than a standing army....and he was right, you know....

Sorry about your sense of being 'right'!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 09:58 PM

Goofball, break with your normal practice and
READ A BOOK FOR A CHANGE!!!
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 10:03 PM

Ya' got any left over old comic books from your studies???
Don, your rap about the Federal Reserve being around when Washington was President is just ridiculous...give it a rest, and save yourself from further embarrassment.
OK?

Gfs


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 11:02 PM

Money is printed by the US Department of the Treasury, not by the Federal Reserve.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 11:21 PM

President George Washington signed the act into law.

Look it up!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Oct 13 - 11:40 PM

I'm talking about the entire concept of a Federal Reserve System, not merely modifications within relatively recent history. The Federal Reserve System is a pretty old idea, going back to the beginning of the country.

Too subtle for the village idiot. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 12:18 AM

Ok..... I looked it up...

"The Federal Reserve System (also known as the Federal Reserve, and informally as the Fed) is the central banking system of the United States. It was created on December 23, 1913, with the enactment of the Federal Reserve Act, largely in response to a series of financial panics, particularly a severe panic in 1907.[2][3][4][5][6][7] Over time, the roles and responsibilities of the Federal Reserve System have expanded and its structure has evolved.[3][8] Events such as the Great Depression were major factors leading to changes in the system.[9]

The U.S. Congress established three key objectives for monetary policy in the Federal Reserve Act: Maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates.[10] The first two objectives are sometimes referred to as the Federal Reserve's dual mandate.[11] Its duties have expanded over the years, and today, according to official Federal Reserve documentation, include conducting the nation's monetary policy, supervising and regulating banking institutions, maintaining the stability of the financial system and providing financial services to depository institutions, the U.S. government, and foreign official institutions.[12] The Fed also conducts research into the economy and releases numerous publications, such as the Beige Book.

The Federal Reserve System's structure is composed of the presidentially appointed Board of Governors (or Federal Reserve Board), the Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC), twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation, numerous privately owned U.S. member banks and various advisory councils.[13][14][15] The FOMC is the committee responsible for setting monetary policy and consists of all seven members of the Board of Governors and the twelve regional bank presidents, though only five bank presidents vote at any given time (the president of the New York Fed and four others who rotate through one-year terms). The Federal Reserve System has both private and public components, and was designed to serve the interests of both the general public and private bankers. The result is a structure that is considered unique among central banks. It is also unusual in that an entity outside of the central bank, namely the United States Department of the Treasury, creates the currency used.[16] According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve System "is considered an independent central bank because its monetary policy decisions do not have to be approved by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branches of government, it does not receive funding appropriated by the Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms."[17]

The authority of the Federal Reserve System is derived from statutes enacted by the U.S. Congress and the System is subject to congressional oversight. The members of the Board of Governors, including its chairman and vice-chairman, are chosen by the President and confirmed by the Senate. The government also exercises some control over the Federal Reserve by appointing and setting the salaries of the system's highest-level employees. Nationally chartered commercial banks are required to hold stock in the Federal Reserve Bank of their region; this entitles them to elect some of the members of the board of the regional Federal Reserve Bank. Thus the Federal Reserve system has both public and private aspects.[18][19][20][21] The U.S. Government receives all of the system's annual profits, after a statutory dividend of 6% on member banks' capital investment is paid, and an account surplus is maintained. In 2010, the Federal Reserve made a profit of $82 billion and transferred $79 billion to the U.S. Treasury.[22] This was followed at the end of 2011 with a transfer of $77 billion in profits to the U.S. Treasury Department.[23]"

Now you can put your tri-cornered tinfoil back on!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 12:45 AM

The WHOLE story:

The History of the Federal Reserve System

Many people are surprised to learn that the Federal Reserve System is not the first U.S. central bank. Congress made two unsuccessful attempts at central banking before the Federal Reserve was established.

The System's earliest precursor, the First Bank of the United States, was established by Congress in 1791 on a 20-year charter, with the mandate to "manage the government's money and to regulate the nation's credit." The Bank acted as the government's fiscal agent, marketing its securities, holding its revenues, and paying its debts.


The federal government maintained partial control of the Bank, but it was led primarily by private investors. The Bank's main office was located in Philadelphia and its branches were concentrated in large northeastern cities.

The Bank successfully carried out its mandate, but met with considerable opposition. Some Americans feared the Bank because of its size. Some believed it was dominated by narrowly defined private interests. And some criticized its geographic concentration. Congress narrowly defeated the re-chartering of the Bank in 1811.

A number of problems quickly surfaced when the U.S. economy operated without a central bank:
1.◾There was no agency to regulate banking and credit.
2.◾Many private banks began issuing their own currency, but the value of these notes was not strictly controlled, nor was this money uniformly accepted.
3.◾The availability of currency varied widely by region.
4.◾The government lacked a reliable mechanism for marketing its securities and a reliable institution to provide it with banking services.

Four years of bank runs and other economic disruptions convinced Congress that the country needed a central bank, and the Second Bank of the United States was chartered in 1816. Much like its predecessor, the Second Bank was predominantly private ownership and its governance was geographically centralized. Many Americans also viewed this Bank, in the words of then-President Andrew Jackson, as "a concentration of power in the hands of a few men irresponsible to the people." When its charter expired in 1836, the Second Bank of the United States ceased its role as America's central bank.

Again, the country was plagued with a hodgepodge of private currencies issued by commercial banks. Although Congress passed a number of acts aimed at restoring balance to the nation's financial system, the U.S. economy suffered the shocks of bank panics and failures. Following a severe bank panic in 1907, Congress created the National Monetary Commission to study the nation's money and banking system and to recommend changes.

After much debate, Congress passed the Federal Reserve Act, which President Woodrow Wilson signed into law in December 1913. The act established the Federal Reserve Banks, whose purpose would be to furnish an elastic currency for the country and to establish more effective banking supervision. The System was specifically designed to be insulated from short-term political pressures, to be a partnership of public and private control, and to represent regional economies and various sectors of the economy.
End of discussion.
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:00 AM

End of discussion????

No..the Federal Reserve System is NOT the same as the original bank..as your post clearly shows.. It was a concoction made up by and for the bankers under the guise of 'stabilizing' the monetary system, for a 'slight fee' I may add. They also refuse to be audited, as I posted the actual videos of the hearings, to Bobert, about two years ago...and guess what?..at the time the Democrats were leading the charge, along with Ron Paul.

Yes, we USED to have a central bank..but it was NOT the 'Federal Reserve' nor the 'Federal Reserve System'.

You should think of retiring from the 'political activist' career, and go into bond trading and stocks....you could make a fortune from getting Stetson and Alcoa to merge, so you could sell stocks to all the other 'clients' who believe your spin doctoring!

GfS

P.S. Do you think spin doctoring could be covered by Obamacare????


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:07 AM

I'm going to stop wasting my time trying to educate YOU and spend more time on political activism.

You'ld better stay out of the political activism part of it. With your lack of knowledge and no sense of history, you'ld just screw things up.

Nighty night.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 01:18 AM

Firth: "With your lack of knowledge and no sense of history, you'ld just screw things up."

Yeah, TRUTH tends to do that to you!!

GfS

P.S. You've seemed to have a history problematic with the origins of things...and if you don't like them, you just adopt a notion that either appeals to you, or you just make up!
Anything else come to mind????


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:48 AM

""Americans are less educated now, and most don't see the danger of centralized banking.""

Us Brits have had a central bank for nearly 320 years, and it took your decentralised pirates, playing fast and loose with your economy, for their personal gain, to plunge the US, UK and most of the world into the worst recession for 84 years.

Now, you were saying?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 06:14 PM

Well Don, I think you are wonderfully correct!...Don't leave out the fact that the Bank of London was/is complicit as well.

As you may have surmised by past posts of mine, my contention is those same bankers have control of our media and most our politicians, both parties, as well....

It's their 'job' to keep the populace ignorant to what they've been up to, and doing.

They do that through the media, and both political parties....
....and some of their, 'causes to be concerned about' are PURE nonsense!

...(but the goal is to keep the people emotionally charged over things that they control)

You see it all over here as well......

Have you ever been so 'emotionally charged' that you couldn't think straight?

I bet you know 'others' that have....

(It's 'always' THOSE 'other guys')......

GfS

P.S. Don't gulp so loud..I could hear you from here!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 07:46 PM

Less Ludwig von Mises.

More John Maynard Kenyes.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM

Revealed: How GPs are paid £50 bonus to put elderly on 'death lists'

GPs paid to draw up 'end-of-life advanced care plans'

Documents seen by Mail on Sunday say 'key objective' is 'reducing healthcare costs'

Every death outside of hospital saves the NHS almost £1,000

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2468112/Revealed-How-GPs-paid-50-bonus-elderly-death-lists.html

This shit system is the template for Obamacare.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 09:48 PM

Perhaps someone from the U.K. can verify this, but I take it, from the above example, that the Mail is the British equivalent of out "National Enquirer," a tabloid for sale at supermarket checkout stands, with such headlines as "Oprah Winfrey has alien baby!!" and "bin Laden alive and living at the White House!"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Oct 13 - 09:50 PM

Less wishful thinking (delusional), turned political...

More straightforward fact in spite of political.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 13 - 06:52 PM

Straight scoop:   CLICKY.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 13 - 07:07 PM

MORE STRAIGHT SCOOP.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 21 Oct 13 - 08:02 PM

Obama had a pep rally for Obamacare in the rose garden today. Bunch of people behind him, and one nearly passed out. There's the future of health care in America. Obama will keep his golf courses open during the faked "shutdowns" and tell us we're fine while we drop like flies.

And then there's this:

Top Senate Democrat backs Medicare, Social Security cuts

The number two Democrat in the US Senate called Sunday for urgent action to reduce future federal spending on Social Security and Medicare. "If we don't focus on health care and dealing with the entitlements," Senator Dick Durbin warned, "the baby boom generation is going to blow away our future."

Durbin appeared on Fox News Sunday to deliver his right-wing message, blaming the mounting federal deficit on the older generation of working people, not on the impact of the Wall Street financial crash, tax cuts for the wealthy, or the vast cost of American imperialism's wars.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/10/21/budg-o21.html

So, is that the position of the Democratic party now, that our economic problems are on account of the babyboomers? Fuckers have barely started retiring. Obama will DOUBLE the debt that we had when he came into office (that's double the debt the entire country accumulated in our entire history), and there's plenty of money to funnel to the banks, but there's none to fund Medicare and Social Security? Since when did the Koch brothers start calling the shots for the Democratic party?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:26 AM

> Perhaps someone from the U.K. can verify this, but I take it, from the above example, that the Mail is the British equivalent of out
> "National Enquirer," a tabloid for sale at supermarket checkout stands, with such headlines as "Oprah Winfrey has alien baby!!" and
> "bin Laden alive and living at the White House!"

Pretty much - Yes. Editoral staff known to be on extremity of right wing of just about main stream politics and um .. to have no real concern or consideration for the realities or practicalities of what they propose (hey - it sells copy!)

Known as 'Daily Fail' for getting stuff spectacularly wrong and for both the highly inventive use of and complete disregard of real statistics. comments pages on their articles are frequently used as a viewing pen for total loons. Tea Party would very much see it as their spiritual home

Seeing articles used as references makes us giggle .. and despair.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

as a state worker I can join the union and my health care is similiar to that of the federal employees...

so instead of reading bs from fear mongers, why not check out comments made to the ARRP site such as this one:

I'm a retired Postal Worker and I am under the Federal Employee Health Benefit program also. This is almost exactly what President Obama was trying to get for all Americans but was prevented from doing so by the Republicans. The government negotiates with many insurance companies on coverage and rates. Then the people have the choice to pick a coverage plan or rate that best suits them. The government pays a portion and the individual pays a portion. I go to my regular doctor, my regular hospital, specialists referred by my doctor, have prescription benefits, etc. All by choosing from many insurance companies. Also I am not punished for "pre-existing" conditions. And every year, I can change plans if I choose without any penalty. This is what every American should have. This is what President Obama wants for the American people.

The President wants the same coverage as the members of Congress enjoy... I don't see any of the Tea Party rejecting their health coverage... that is supposedly so bad for the nation. Hypocrites to the bitter end.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 10:15 AM

here is a website that does a comparison between what is "good enough" for the average Amercian, as opposed to Congress who is supposed to work for all Americans... the guys that pay their saleries and perks - other than what seems to come from special interests who need to remain anomymous.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 10:32 AM

and now... the link...

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/retirement/retirement-benefits-congress-vs-you.aspx

new computer is taking some getting used to... lol techno-klutz


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 02:19 PM

Thanks, GUEST, for verifying my impression of the Daily Mail.

Almost all of Songwronger's "sources" are of about the same general quality and veracity.

Pehaps he should seriously contemplate a remark made by Abraham Lincoln:
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt!"
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:11 PM

Don, it's no use... trying to open a closed mind is often a waste of effort.

Yesterday I was at my chiropractor & the receptionist there is in 100% agreement with the 'wronger. She even went so far as to disparage democracy... it obviously let her down by "allowing" the election of our President.

It would problably take a burning bush or other "miracle" to penetrate that kind of entrenched attitude - can't call it thinking, because they do not want to be distracted from their opinions by anything like even handed examination. They seek only affirmation of their dogmatic stance.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 03:43 PM

"Obama had a pep rally for Obamacare in the rose garden today. Bunch of people behind him, and one nearly passed out. "

Right... and she admits she was pregnant .....and dehydrated **due to her own worry about not needed to pee during the ceremony!**

Did YOU see the video of Obama helping her.

She is fine... and it had **NOTHING** to due with ObamaCare.


Don't you have anything to do beyond writing talking points for Louie Gohmert?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 04:08 PM

Agreed, sciencegeek.

The only reason I answer someone like Songwronger is not necessarily to answer him. But he seems to operate on the Hitlerian idea that "If you repeat a lie big enough and often enough, people will begin to believe it." By rebutting him by exposing the spurious nature of his sources, I hope to show what Songwronger and his cohorts (like Goofball) are up to, and not to be naïve enough to fall for it.

I have a relative who listens to Rush Limbaugh and Fox News and swallows their garbage whole. With him, I just avoid any kind of political discussion. He's hopeless!!

And a friend of ours who lives down the street who is absolutely convinced that President Obama is spying on her. She's see "drones" hovering outside her window (I've noticed that she goes absolutely cock-eyed about this in seasons when hummingbirds abound, and she does have a garden outside her window). It occurs to me that it would be a total waste of time, money, and resources to keep her under surveillance because, other than being totally crackers, she's essentially harmless. I don't argue with her either, because it would be fruitless and she'd just start to suspect me of being in on Obama's plot to spy on her.

No, Songwronger, Goofball, and a couple of others are too far down the road to conspiracy theories based on their own paranoia and bigotry to save, so no point in even trying.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 07:32 PM

So the Daily Mail is not to be trusted? What about the story below, from the Daily Mail? Lots of names, places and dates that can be verified from other sources. Is the story bullshit?:

Bombshell: Federal judge suddenly green-lights lawsuit that could stop Obamacare in its tracks

•Small-business plaintiffs say the government is treating all 50 states the same even though Congress allowed them to opt out – and 36 did

•The IRS is granting insurance subsidies to taxpayers in the 'refusenik' states, even though the text of the Obamacare law doesn't allow it

•A federal judge denied the government's motion to dismiss the case on Tuesday

•He also refused, however, to issue an injunction barring the Obama administration from implementing the law while the case moves forward

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2471978/Bombshell-Federal-judge-suddenly-green-lights-lawsuit-stop-Obamacare-tracks.html


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 08:38 PM

The Daily Mail is about as trustworthy as the National Enquirer. And Songwronger, if you believe anything written by David Martosko, then I have this bridge I'd like to sell you. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 09:41 PM

So the federal judge DIDN'T do this? The story is made up? Please explain how it's not true.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 13 - 10:56 PM

"He (the judge) also refused, however, to issue an injunction barring the Obama administration from implementing the law while the case moves forward."

The game isn't over 'til it's over. Ho hum. Much Ado about Nothing.

By the way, that's a federal judge, NOT a Supreme Court judge.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 12:19 AM

Yes. That's what the headline says, a federal judge. Your powers of observation amaze me, Holmes. When you eliminate the dog that didn't bark, no matter how unlikely, the obvious must be the answer.

And we all know how the supreme court will rule on any Obamacrap case. Chief Justice Roberts already squeezed the thing out on the country with his insane and illegal "It's not a penalty, it's a tax" decision. He's going to hang beside Obama and the rest when we have our Nuremburg trials. Roberts literally fled to Malta after issuing the Obamacare decision. He expected the noose back then.

Obamacare is a banking scam, and all 3 branches of our federal government have sold out to the banks.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:48 AM

Firth: "The Daily Mail is about as trustworthy as the National Enquirer. And Songwronger, if you believe anything written by David Martosko, then I have this bridge I'd like to sell you. . . ."

Are you STILL trying to sell that bridge????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:49 AM

The Daily Mail?! (retires to wipe away tears of mirth)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:33 PM

""Well Don, I think you are wonderfully correct!...Don't leave out the fact that the Bank of London was/is complicit as well.""

It's the Bank of England Goofus, and if you knew anything about it, you would know that it was the investment side of the commercial banks which were involved.

Whatever, it was the piratical stupidity of the largest US banks which started the dominoes falling.

Pehaps, if the US had a central bank, that might not have happened.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:51 PM

""Perhaps someone from the U.K. can verify this, but I take it, from the above example, that the Mail is the British equivalent of out "National Enquirer," a tabloid for sale at supermarket checkout stands, with such headlines as "Oprah Winfrey has alien baby!!" and "bin Laden alive and living at the White House!""

To say that the Daily Mail is a scurrilous rag, which is ignored by almost everyone with an IQ exceeding his/her collar size, would amount to flattery.

The only thing which would justify its purchase would be perforations and the printed legend on the edges "Now wash you hands"

The item referred to, is in truth a highly desirable accedence to the wishes of the terminally ill and their families, not to be forced to remain in hospital and undergo heroic intervention to prolongue life without quality of life.

They are not chosen by doctors for "death lists, but supported in their desire to die in their own homes with dignity.

Shitstirrer has got it arse about face as usual.

And Obamacare is nothing like the NHS. It is however the best that the likes of Shitstirrer and his Tea Party heroes would allow.

If it were like the NHS, Americans would be paying one tenth of their current medical costs.

Don T


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:11 PM

And in terms of health care, the U.S. would be joining the rest of the civilized world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:01 PM

'Scurrilous rag' isn't far off IMO, but be aware that the Mail is one of our most successesful papers, and is considered in some quarters a respectable publication. Also be aware, however, that it's standard daily fare is scaremongering about immigrants and foreigners in general, climate change denial, etc., and that it's own readers overwhelmingly considered a recent smear campaign against the dead father of the leader of the parliamentray opposition to have been in poor taste. Not that ,the Mail apologized.   It makes no secret of its rightwing bias, regularly peddles bogus data, and is certainly not a quotable source of reliable information.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 11:24 PM

Got that, Songwronger?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:24 PM

https://data.healthcare.gov/dataset/QHP-Individual-Medical-Landscape/ba45-xusy

That's the only state by state breakdown I've seen. It shows the premiums but not the co-pays and deductibles.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Elmore
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:15 PM

What's all the fuss about? President Clinton will fix this when she takes office, preferably with a single payer clause to remove the profit motive from health care which is every person's right.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:40 PM

That chart, which is about as useful as tits on a boar, doesn't even show Washington State.

My wife and I are already covered. Medicare Advantage, which we've had for some time. Very nominal premium. I'll keep checking, but I'm told that we don't have to do anything.

Yeah. Hilary will get this thing sorted out. Bill had her put together a health care plan while he was in office, and she put forth a darned good one.

But, of course, the Republicans shat all over it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM

People like you keep shit sandwiches on Obama's bill of fare, Firth:

"[T]he cancellation notices, which began arriving in August, have shocked many consumers in light of President Barack Obama's promise that people could keep their plans if they liked them," according to Kaiser Health News reporters Anna Gorman and Julie Appleby.

"Florida Blue, for example, is terminating about 300,000 policies, about 80 percent of its individual policies in the state. Kaiser Permanente in California has sent notices to 160,000 people – about half of its individual business in the state. Insurer Highmark in Pittsburgh is dropping about 20 percent of its individual market customers, while Independence Blue Cross, the major insurer in Philadelphia, is dropping about 45 percent," Kaiser reports. "Blue Shield of California sent roughly 119,000 cancellation notices out in mid-September, about 60 percent of its individual business. About two-thirds of those policyholders will see rate increases in their new policies, said spokesman Steve Shivinsky."

President Obama and top Democrats promised that costs would go down for everyone.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/millions-americans-are-losing-their-health-plans-because-obamacare_764602.html

I bet you take a side order of jism with your sandwiches, Firth. I also bet that your health insurance coverage will have tripled in cost by this time next year.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 10:26 PM

Another of Songwronger's conservative (Right Wing) sources of "information":    CLICKY.

Well, Songwronger, I notice that you have a whole string of degrees. B.S., M.S., and PhD.

Now, we all know what B.S. stands for. M.S. stands for More of Same and PhD stands for Piled higher and Deeper.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 12:55 AM

He's still looking for more buyers for that bridge....so blame the source...maybe he'll get enough that he could auction it to them!
Hey Firth, the story is beginning to be carried by a LOT of YOU favorite brain-dead sources to.....it's getting too big to hide...
Sorry it's not working out...
OK..now you can start calling us names...cuz' that's all you got!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:02 AM

From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 12:55 AM

Clarification:

He's still looking for more buyers for that bridge....so blame the source...maybe he'll get enough buyers that he could auction it to them!
Hey Firth, the story is beginning to be carried by a LOT of YOUR favorite brain-dead sources too.....it's getting too big to hide...
Sorry it's not working out...
OK..now you can start calling us names...cuz' that's all you got!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:28 AM

(I think I hear my neighbor's stupid little Yorkshire terrier yapping his head off again.)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:33 AM

Good!..Maybe she'll give you the latest news!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:38 AM

Sounds like 'political activists' spouting 'equal rights' based on bad science....well at least that describes 'yapping'...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:58 AM

Go to bed and rest up, Goofball. You're dizzy from sniffing Songwronger's butt.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 02:39 AM

Where did you get THAT one??..from your friends????
Seems that they are pretty delirious for doing it...and you call it love!!!???!!!

But that's ol' Donald!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 02:27 PM

No, I figure that those genes you're so afraid of will cause you to lapse from time to time. You're obviously madly in love with Songwronger.

Don't you feel sort of constrained in that closet?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:19 PM

Those are jeans, Don, in GeistInsanity's case.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:56 PM

You're probably right, Greg. I'm not sure fungus has genes.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:45 PM

I'm afraid you are quite wrong about the "Daily Mail", the "liberal" media like to brand it as a "comic cuts" publication, but it is remarkably accurate in most of its articles.
It comes from a right of centre perspective, but not extreme.

It is popular and more truthful than "The Times", carries more political information than most of the "redtops" and does not pretend to be anything other than the voice of the centre right.

All the big newspapers in the UK are centre or centre right, and all support the present system.

There are others like the Guardian, Independent etc, who pretend to speak for the left.....until the chips are down......then they revert to type.

We get the press we deserve


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:09 PM

Ake, there's more to it than merely identifying the source of a politically slanted article. To dismiss the article solely on the basis of the biases of the source is to fall into the fallacy of argumentum ad homonym. Even the most biased of sources can speak the truth now and then.

One goes on to check the facts upon which the slant of the article is based.

Which, having worked as a broadcast news director and news editor, I am accustomed to doing.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:32 PM

Yes Don, but to describe The Mail as any more of a "scurrilous rag" than any of the other UK papers, or to equate it with the "National Enquirer", is disingenuous.

It is an honestly right of centre paper.
We do not have an honestly left of centre newspaper in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:56 PM

Ake, I went further and read several other articles in The Mail, and the material is definitely comparable in quality to what is published in the "National Enquirer."

Sensationalism and political bias of the worst sort.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:22 PM

Healthcare.gov exposed as data-gathering honey pot to shamelessly harvest private consumer data and turn it over to the NSA

The pieces of the puzzle on Obamacare are finally coming together. Yesterday it was revealed during congressional testimony that the Healthcare.gov website contains a hidden disclaimer which reads, "You have no reasonable expectation of privacy regarding any communication or data transmitting or stored on this information system."

This is an open admission that the site intends to share your data with other government entities. It also means the entire website violates federal law because it does not comply with HIPAA regulations for medical privacy. Click here to watch the astonishing video testimony.

But this isn't the only evidence now emerging.

It also turns out that an NSA-funded entity actually helped build Healthcare.gov! Kit Daniels has just published a groundbreaking story that links the CIA venture capital firm "In-Q-Tel" to the Healthcare.gov data collection technology provider known as Socrata.

"Socrata will work with the CIA and other intelligence agencies to transform raw data into a format easily utilized and accessible to the intelligence community," writes Daniels. "Healthcare.gov captures the personal data provided during the Obamacare enrollment process for this spy grid database."

...Healthcare.gov is specifically designed to gather your most intimate details such as social security number, annual salary, place of employment, immigration status, military background, criminal history, physical place of residence, bank account numbers and much more. This information is simply shuttled directly to the NSA where it is then used to cross-tabulate all your phone calls, texts, social media posts, website surfing habits, credit card purchase habits and much more.

http://www.naturalnews.com/042664_Healthcaregov_NSA_data_mining_fake_front-end.html


How Badly Will Obamacare Screw You?

First, if you're "27", the average premium is $266.20/month or $3,194.40 per year. How many 27 year olds have an extra $3,200 to spend on this? Remember, this is the price that virtually every uninsured 27 year old must be willing -- and able -- to cough up in order to prevent the model this system is predicated on from collapsing.

If those 27 year olds don't show up, and they won't, then the system collapses instantly. If they do show up because the government threatens them with fines the economy collapses as $3,200 a year exceeds the average 27 year old's disposable personal income after mandatory expenses (e.g. food, shelter, etc.)...

...Now let's look at the government's own claims. First, the CPI index claims that health insurance is 0.656% of the family budget. What percentage of couples make $1.185 million a year? Why do I ask? Because that's the alleged median income for a couple if you believe the government's CPI numbers....

...Oh, yeah, about that -- most of these plans absolutely exclude payment of anything to out-of-network physicians and facilities. "You can keep your doctor" eh? Uh, no.

This "program" is nothing more than the imposition of force to support a medical "system" that has systematically and intentionally destroyed the health of millions with government assistance and prodding.

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=225369

This second article makes a good point about the economy. In order for Obamacare to work, all 27 year olds must enroll (but the penalty, sorry, the "tax" will be only $95 the first year if they don't. So they won't enroll). The system will fail. But even if they DID all sign up, that $3000 or so going to insurance rather than other sectors of the economy will starve those other sectors of the economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:34 PM

". . . designed to gather your most intimate details such as social security number, annual salary, place of employment, immigration status, military background, criminal history, physical place of residence, bank account numbers and much more."

Songwronger's sources for these Revelations? B.S., M.S., PhD, as indicated above.

Here's a news flash, Songwronger:   if you've ever filed an income tax return, the Dreaded Government already has most of this information. Military background and criminal history are also a matter of public record.

If you feel like running around in circles, screaming in terror, and pulling your hair out—well, I suppose that's good exercise. But try not to wake the neighbors. They could get a bit cranky with your gyrations.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Elmore
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:47 PM

I'd like to sign up, but I believe Th President's Affordable Care Act is illegal in Georgia.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Elmore
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:50 PM

Not Th President, The President.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 12:45 AM

Ake: "Yes Don, but to describe The Mail as any more of a "scurrilous rag" than any of the other UK papers, or to equate it with the "National Enquirer", is disingenuous."

Just give him another source, besides the 'Daily Mail'. There has to be more.....whenever he can't refute something, he attacks the source...give him enough sources, and then he'll just call you some names out of the liberal handbook. He's meaningless, and can't back up anything he says with ACCURATE facts.
(Actually, he'd have to look that up, to see what it means).

He's not half as bright as he pretends to be.

BTW, Akenaton, HELLO!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 06:04 AM

""Just give him another source, besides the 'Daily Mail'. There has to be more.....whenever he can't refute something, he attacks the source.""

As usual Goofus, you've got the thing arse about face.

Don Firth did not attack the source! Entirely reasonable, he asked for comment about that source from somebody who actually knows something about it.

You should try it sometime, instead of quoting every tinfoil hatted conspiracy nut in the world.

I answered his request, and the comment was mine, based on experience of the debased and unregulated foulness of most of the UK Press.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 10:26 AM

Don the "Mail" would never print "Oprah has alien baby" whether it was true or untrue!
Of course it has a centre right bias, but not an extreme right bias.

As someone on the centre left, I am sure you prefer to read left biased articles on the net or in the papers?.....but most here would think you have a perfect right to do so and subscribe to such publications.

You should understand tolerance in political matters, it is the only way real change can be achieved.....the differences between centre right and centre left are miniscule in real terms, most of the steam is stoked up by the Parties in an attempt to divert attention from the real villians ....the corporate Capitalists ....global Capitalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 01:38 PM

Akenaton, have you ever actually studied political science, or are you just putting it all together in line with your particular biases?

There are whole different philosophical and ethical bases that keep Liberal and Conservative mutually exclusive political positions. Not miniscule at all!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 01:55 PM

Akenaton: "....the differences between centre right and centre left are miniscule in real terms, most of the steam is stoked up by the Parties in an attempt to divert attention from the real villians ....the corporate Capitalists ....global Capitalism."

I don't mind capitalism, in the way, that if one provides a service or goods, that they should be compensated for it...what gives me the ass, is when GREED and CORRUPTION, become infused and so inbred with corporate globalism, that they buy out the political parties, and systems for more corruption, as a way for more power and control, and the idiot-logues actually believe that they aren't promoting, 'The New World Order' spoken about by Hitler, reintroduced by Bush, and carried further by Obama(along with the rest of the corrupt jerks), who dare to call themselves 'representatives'! ..and THEN, we get the idiot activists who are so enamored by the thought of their own importance, that they purposely, carry on trying to deceive people for their own self aggrandizement!

Right, Don?..and Don??

(I left out Bobert, because he's just a casualty of collateral damage)!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 04:56 PM

The advantage of Capitalism is that it leads to competition for the consumers' dollar. And this leads to better products and services. But by its very nature, Capitalism is fired by greed or something very much like it. This can get out of hand with such things as monopolies and cartels, so it has to be firmly regulated.

In the 1930s, Franklin D. Roosevelt and his progressive/ Democratic administration ended the Great Depression (precipitated by Capitalist greed manipulating Wall Street and the banking system) and ushered in a solid period of general prosperity following World War II.

And no, it was NOT World War II that got the U. S. out of the Depression, it was a combination of FDR's measures, such as the WPA and CCC, which put the 25% unemployed back to work on much needed infrastructure such as roads, highways, bridges, and National Parks, which we are still using and enjoying today. This jump-started the end of the Depression partly by putting money back in the hands of people who had to spend it right away on things like food and rent, returning the money immediately into circulation, and this, in essence, jump-started the economy. The regulatory agencies that FDR put into place, such as the Securities and Exchange Commission put the brakes on wild speculation on Wall Street and irresponsibility in the banking system.

This is an oversimplification of the extent and effect of FDR's policies, but it give the essence of it.

The Fifties was a period of general prosperity, despite a Republican administration, but Dwight D. Eisenhower was a moderate Republican and an intelligent man. He, after all, is the one who warned the country about the dangers of the Military-Industrial complex.

Kennedy and Johnson from the early to the late 1960s. Then Nixon and Ford in the 1970s, then one term of Jimmie Carter, followed by—

Ronald Reagan. Reagan set about disassembling the regulatory agencies the FDR put in place by, for example, replacing members of the Securities and Exchange Commission with banking executives and Wall Street brokers.

A prime example of putting the fox in charge of the chicken coop!

This, plus replacing a couple of Supreme Court justices with Conservatives, along with big tax breaks for corporations ("supply-side economics"). George H. W. Bush just continued Reagan's policies. He was followed by Bill Clinton who manage to get himself impeached (fooling around with a White House aide) without really accomplishing much for the country.

Then—George W. Bush, the walking disaster! 'Nuff said!!

Barack Obama is no FDR, but his heart is in the right place and he's doing his damnedest to put things right again, but he is being stonewalled by an ultra-conservative Republican Congress who don't give a damn about the good of the country as a whole, they just want to see Obama fail.

Two major reasons for this: he is a Progressive Democrat, which to the Right Wing is the equivalent of the Anti-Christ, and as far as the southern states (and parts of the rest of the country) he is the wrong color to be in the White House.

Can't have that, now can we!??

Interesting to note that many of the details of Obama's health care plan were first proposed by Republican Mitt Romney in Massachusetts and it was just peachy-keen then—but when Obama proposes essentially the same plan, the Republicans act like the Apocalypse is coming!!

Contrary to the lazy thinkers who avoid the effort of thinking by asserting that "they're both the same," there is a world of difference between the philosophical and ethical positions of Liberals and Conservatives.

And this goes back to long before King John was forced, kicking and screaming, to sign the Magna Carta at Runnymede in 1215. This was one of the first steps toward limiting the powers of the aristocracy and guaranteeing the common people some rights—a first step toward Constitutional government.

It becomes obvious that a distressing and depressing number of people apparently don't know the long-term histories of the issues the speak so authoritatively about. A goodly percentage of the voters in this (and apparently some other countries) are badly in need of a good Dope Slap!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 12:59 PM

Thank you for your semi-literate description of your deception!
Next you'll be saying Hillary is your next 'progressive' choice, because she is a woman, and 'nothing like Bush', or Rockefeller!...as if Obama being half white/black has ANYTHING to do with ANY of it!!

"It", meaning, lying and an administration of incompetence!
Protect our borders....and stop selling guns across them to the drug cartels.
Gitmo??...Oh, I know, that got swept under the wispy willows of 'because'...and hope to be forgotten.
NDAA??????? WTF???
Benghazi??...Oh, just send Hillary out there to lie her fat ass off, and then blurt out, "What does it matter how they were killed??"..That way he can stop lying to the U.N.!!..oh and lying to the American public about it..(besides, they don't matter anyway)...
And if Solyndra wasn't an exercise in crony corruption, what till they get a load of the Obamacare's website....and the cost 640 million of that 'no bid' contract....and now they want another 5o million to fix their own fuck up..with no guarantees that, that should do it! Solyndra was just a 'warm up pitch'....to help implement a pseudo healthcare program that was so fucking good, that it took promises of exemption from it, in exchange for the votes to pass it without reading it!!!!!!!!!!!

..and the list goes on and on.....

But one thing you got right, Obama ain't no FDR....or Eisenhower, or Kennedy......They're all dead.

You're only brain dead.....


..but it's a start!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 03:23 PM

So speaks the voice of ignorance and stupidity.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 03:41 PM

Give me a list of accomplishments from this administration, that went well!

Try to limit your answer to things that are truthful...for a CHANGE!

I'll be back in about a week.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 05:17 PM

Okay, Smartass, you asked for it, so here it is. And each item is accompanied by a URL so you can check it for yourself.
Returned the Executive Branch To Fiscal Responsibility.

1. Within his first week, he signed an Executive Order ordering an audit of government contracts, and combating waste and abuse.   http://1.usa.gov/dUvbu5

2. Created the post of Chief Performance Officer, whose job it is to make operations more efficient to save the federal government money.   http://n.pr/hcgBn1

3. On his first full day, he froze White House salaries. http://on.msnbc.com/ewJUIx

4. He appointed the first Federal Chief Information Officer to oversee federal IT spending. http://www.cio.gov

5. He committed to phasing out unnecessary and outdated weapons systems. To that end, he also signed the Democratic-sponsored Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act, which attempted to put a stop to waste, fraud and abuse in the defense procurement and contracting system. http://bit.ly/hOw1t1    http://bit.ly/fz8GAd

6. Through an executive order, he created the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform. http://bit.ly/hwKhKa

Prevented a Bush Depression and Improved the Economy.

7. Pushed through and signed the Democratic-sponsored American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, otherwise known as "the stimulus package." The bill passed, even though only three Republicans voted for it. In a major departure from the previous administration, he launched recovery.gov, a website that allows taxpayers to track spending from the Act.   http://1.usa.gov/ibiFSs   http://1.usa.gov/e3BJMk

8. The Bush-led Great Recession was costing the economy nearly 800,000 jobs per month by the time President Obama took office. But by the end of his first year, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act created and sustained 2.1 million jobs and stimulated the economyby 3.5%. http://reut.rs/i46CEE

9. Not only did he completed the massive TARP financial and banking rescue plan, he also leaned on the banks and others, and recovered virtually all of the bail-out money. http://1.usa.gov/eA5jVS   http://bit.ly/eCNrD6

10. He created the Making Home Affordable home refinancing plan. http://1.usa.gov/goy6zl

11. Oversaw the creation of more jobs in 2010 alone than Bush did in eight years. http://bit.ly/hrrnjY

12. Along with Democrats, and almost no Republicans, implemented an auto industry rescue plan, and saved as many as 1 million jobs. http://bit.ly/ibhpxr   Many are of the opinion that he saved the entire auto industry, and even the economy of the entire Midwest. http://bit.ly/gj7mt5 This resulted in GM returning to its place as the top car company in the world. http://lat.ms/zIJuQx Willard Romney, on the other hand, advocated for the entire industry to go belly-up. http://nyti.ms/k0zp

13. Doubled funding for the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, which is designed to improve manufacturing efficiency. http://bit.ly/eYD4nf

14. Signed the Democratic-sponsored Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act giving the federal government more tools to investigate and prosecute fraud in every corner of the financial system, and create a bipartisan Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission to investigate the financial fraud that led to the economic meltdown. http://abcn.ws/g18Fe7

15. Signed the Democratic-sponsored Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility and Disclosure (CARD) Act, which was designed to to protect consumers from unfair and deceptive credit card practices. http://1.usa.gov/gIaNcS

16. Increased infrastructure spending after years of neglect. http://bit.ly/f77aOw

17. Signed the Democratic-sponsored and passed Helping Families Save Their Homes Act, expanding on the Making Home Affordable Program to help millions of Americans avoid preventable foreclosures. The bill also provided $2.2 billion to help combat homelessness, and to stabilize the housing market. http://bit.ly/eEpLFn

18. Through the Worker, Homeownership, and Business Assistance Act of 2009, he and Congressional Democrats provided tax credits to first-time home buyers, which helped the U.S. housing market recovery.   http://bit.ly/dZgXXw   http://bit.ly/gORYfL

19. Initiated a $15 billion plan designed to encourage increased lending to small businesses.
http://1.usa.gov/eu0u0b

20. Created business.gov, which allows for online collaboration between small businesses and experts re managing a business. (The program has since merged with SBA.gov.)   http://www.business.gov

21. Played a lead role in getting the G-20 Summit to commit to a $1.1 trillion deal to combat the global financial crisis.   http://nyti.ms/gHlgp5

22. Took steps to improve minority access to capital. http://bit.ly/f9xVE7

23. Signed an Executive Order instructing federal agencies to review all federal regulations and remove any unnecessary and/or burdensome regulations from the books. http://1.usa.gov/Lpo5bd

24. Through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, saved at least 300,000 education jobs, such as teachers, principals, librarians, and counselors that would have otherwise been lost.   http://1.usa.gov/ez30Dc

25. Dismantled the Minerals Management Service, thereby cutting ties between energy companies and the government. http://nyti.ms/bw1MLu

26. Along with Congressional Democrats, provided funding to states and the Department of Homeland Security to save thousands of police and firefighter jobs from being cut during the recession. http://bit.ly/g0IKWR

27. Used recovered TARP money to fund programs at local housing finance agencies in California, Florida, Nevada, Arizona and Michigan.   http://on.msnbc.com/i1i8eV

28. Crafted an Executive order establishing the President's Advisory Council on Financial Capability to assist in financial education for all Americans. http://bit.ly/eyqsNE

Brought Much-Improved Greater Transparency and Better Government.

29. Signed an order banning gifts from lobbyists to anyone in the Executive Branch. http://bit.ly/fsBACN

30. Signed an order banning anyone from working in an agency they had lobbied in previous years, and put strict limits on lobbyists' access to the White House.   http://nyti.ms/gOrznV

31. Held the first-ever first online town hall from the White House, and took questions from the public. http://bit.ly/gVNSgX

32. Became the first to stream every White House event, live. http://1.usa.gov/kAgOP5

33. Established a central portal for Americans to find service opportunities.   http://www.serve.gov

34. Provided the first voluntary disclosure of the White House Visitors Log in history. http://1.usa.gov/hQ7ttV

35. Issued an Executive Order on Presidential Records, which restored the 30-day time frame for former presidents to review records, and eliminated the right for the vice president or family members of former presidents to do the reviews. Provides the public with greater access to historic White House documents, and severely curtails the ability to use executive privilege to shield them. http://1.usa.gov/gUetLb

36. Improved aspects of the Freedom of Information Act, and issued new guidelines to make FOIA more open and transparent when processing FOIA requests. http://1.usa.gov/gjrnp2

Wall Street Reforms and Consumer Protection

37. Ordered 65 executives who took bailout money to cut their own pay until they paid back all bailout money. http://huff.to/eAi9Qq

38. Along with Congressional Democrats, pushed through and got passed Dodd-Frank, one of the largest and most comprehensive Wall Street reforms since the Great Depression. http://bit.ly/hWCPg0   http://bit.ly/geHpcD

39. Through Dodd-Frank legislation, created the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau http://1.usa.gov/j5onG

40. Through Dodd-Frank, the Executive Branch fashioned rules that reduce the influence of speculators in the oil market. http://bit.ly/MDnA1t

41. Fashioned rules so that banks can no longer use YOUR money to invest in high-risk financial instruments that work against their own customers' interests. http://bit.ly/fnTayj

42. Supported the concept of allowing stockholders to vote on executive compensation. http://bit.ly/fnTayj

43. Endorsed and supported the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act of 2009 that would close offshore tax avoidance loopholes.   http://bit.ly/esOdfB    http://bit.ly/eG4DPM

44. Negotiated a deal with Swiss banks that now permits the US government to gain access to the records of criminals and tax evaders. http://bit.ly/htfDgw

45. Signed the American Jobs and Closing Tax Loopholes Act, which closed many of the loopholes that allowed companies to send jobs overseas, and avoid paying US taxes by moving money offshore. http://1.usa.gov/bd1RTq

46. Established a Consumer Protection Financial Bureau designed to protect consumers from financial sector excesses. http://bit.ly/fnTayj

47. Oversaw and then signed a Democratic bill constituting the most sweeping food safety legislation since the Great Depression. http://thedc.com/gxkCtP

48. Through the Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act, extended the False Claims Act to combat fraud by companies and individuals usingmoney from the TARP and Stimulus programs. http://bit.ly/SLTcSa

Enhanced Civil Rights and Anti-Discrimination.

49. Along with Congressional Democrats, advocated for and signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which made it a federal crime to assault anyone based on his or her sexual orientation or gender identity. http://bit.ly/gsMSJ7

50. Pushed through, signed and demanded the Pentagon enact a repeal of the discriminatory "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy that forced soldiers to lie in order to be eligible to fight for their country, and put our troops at risk by disqualifying many qualified soldiers from helping. http://bit.ly/fdahuH http://bit.ly/mZV4Pz

51. Extended benefits to same-sex partners of federal employees. http://1.usa.gov/g2RLCj

52. Appointed more openly gay officials than anyone in history. http://bit.ly/g1lA7D

53. Appointed first openly transgender Cabinet Official in History. http://bit.ly/58zUp7

54. Changed HUD rules to prohibit gender and sexual orientation-based discrimination in housing   bit.ly/9RxEnP

55. Changed his mind and publicly expressed support for the right to enter into a same-sex marriage. http://bit.ly/JsiFKp

56. Issued a Presidential Memorandum reaffirming the rights of gay couples to make medical decisions for each other. http://1.usa.gov/aUueGT

57. Wrote and signed an Executive Order establishing a White House Council on Women and Girls to ensure that all Cabinet and Cabinet-level agencies evaluate the effect of their policies and programs on women and families.    http://bit.ly/e1puTk   http://1.usa.gov/rFfqMM

58. Signed the Democratic-sponsored Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, which restored basic protections against pay discrimination for women and other workers. This was after the GOP blocked the bill in 2007. Only 5 Republican Senators voted for the bill.   http://bit.ly/fT3Cxg

59. Expanded funding for the Violence Against Women Act. http://1.usa.gov/dSbI0x

60. Under his guidance, National Labor Relations Board issued final rules that require all employers to prominently post employees' rights where all employees or prospective employees can see it, including websites and intranets, beginning November 2011. http://1.usa.gov/qu2EhQ

61. Advocated that United Nations adopt a policy supporting gay rights worldwide. http://lat.ms/pQe1RS

62. Issued an order requiring hospitals to allow visitation by same-sex couples.   reut.rs/llNJek

63. Appointed Kareem Dale as the first ever Special Assistant to the President for Disability Policy. http://1.usa.gov/fi5IY0

64. Helped Democrats in Congress pass and signed the Civil Rights History Act. http://bit.ly/th0JC8

Major Improvements in Foreign Relations, American Status around the World.

65. Visited more countries and met with more world leaders than any previous president during his first six months in office.   http://bit.ly/hZycda

66. As he promised, he gave a speech at a major Islamic forum in Cairo early in his administration. http://nyti.ms/dKvY4g

67. Helped to restore America's reputation around the world as a global leader that does the "right thing" in world affairs, at least according to the rest of the world.   http://bit.ly/h743y7 http://bit.ly/ho4TCr

68. Re-established and reinforced our partnership with NATO and other allies on strategic international issues. http://1.usa.gov/e7QuDj

69. Closed a number of secret detention facilities. http://nyti.ms/rpUc9l

70. Improved relations with Middle East countries by appointing special envoys. http://1.usa.gov/tiGAGe

71. Pushed for military to emphasize devlopment of foreign language skills. http://bit.ly/AxUCLV

72. Offered $400 million to the people living in Gaza, called on both Israel and the Palestinians to stop inciting violence. http://bit.ly/9axfWh

73. Refused to give Israel the green light to attack Iran over their possible nuclear program, and thus avoid another war that Republicans wanted. http://bit.ly/xVmSZK

74. Worked with Democratic Congress to make donations to Haiti tax deductible in 2009. http://huff.to/6YkAVY

75. Established a new U.S.-China Strategic and Economic Dialogue.   http://1.usa.gov/eX28DP

76. Issued Executive Order blocking interference and helping to stabilize Somalia. http://1.usa.gov/hxdf8U

77. Established new, more reasonable policies in our relations with Cuba, such as allowing Cuban-Americans to visit their families and send money to support them. http://n.pr/hY3Kwa   http://nyti.ms/emQBde

78. Ordered the closure of the prison at Guantanamo Bay. It was Republicans (and, unfortunately, progressive Democrats) who prevented follow through. http://bit.ly/eW6CVF

79. Ordered a review of our detention and interrogation policy, and prohibited the use of torture, or what Bush called "enhanced interrogation." He ordered interrogators to limit their actions to the Army Field manual. http://bit.ly/g6MTuC

80. Ordered all secret detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere to be closed. http://bbc.in/h6N9ax

81. Released the Bush torture memos. http://bit.ly/hWJ5z0

82. On his second day in office, he signed a detailed Executive Order that banned torture, reversed all Bush torture policies, and put the United States in compliance with the Geneva Convention. http://1.usa.gov/dL6Zve    http://nyti.ms/hzWWys

83. In response to the emerging "Arab Spring," he created a Rapid Response fund, to assist emerging democracies with foreign aid, debt relief, technical assistance, and investment packages in order to show that the United States stands with them. http://bit.ly/zfmGv9

84. Ended the F-22 program, saving $4 billion. Though the single-seat, twin-engine, fighter aircraft cost $358 million each, and the military had 187 built, the F-22 never flew a combat mission. http://slate.me/PYzmzT (The "fiscally conservative" GOP fought to keep it.)

85. Passed the Iran Sanctions Act, to prevent war, and to encourage Iran to give up their nuclear program. http://1.usa.gov/wLtNjb

86. Ended the Iraq War. http://tgr.ph/ru0tyS

87. Authorized and oversaw a secret mission by SEAL Team Six to rescue two hostages held by Somali pirates. http://bit.ly/y8c9Fz

88. Through United Nations Ambassador Susan Rice, helped negotiate a peaceful split of Sudan into two countries, this allowing for the creation of an independent South Sudan.   http://reut.rs/qzE0Tj   

A More Realistic Approach to "Defense" and National Security.

89. Created a comprehensive new strategy for dealing with the international nuclear threat. http://1.usa.gov/gDX1nE

90. Authorized a $1.4 billion reduction in Star Wars program in 2010. http://1.usa.gov/gLFZl2

91. Restarted nuclear nonproliferation talks and built up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols to where they had been before Bush.   http://lat.ms/gkcl3i

92. Signed and pushed through ratification a new SALT Treaty. http://bit.ly/f3JVtw

93. Negotiated and signed a new START Treaty that will lst until at least 2021. http://1.usa.gov/cI1bC4

94. Through the Defense Authorization Act, reversed the Bush Administration and committed to no permanent military bases in Iraq.   http://bit.ly/hk73OJ

95. Developed first comprehensive strategy with regard to Afghanistan and Pakistan designed to facilitate the defeat of al Qaeda and the withdrawal of most troops, as well as the rebuilding of Afghanistan. http://wapo.st/ee4Xcs

96. Returned our focus to Afghanistan, stabilized the country, and began the process of withdrawing our troops from the country. http://bit.ly/lNXUna

97. Negotiated a deal with Afghan govenment, to withdraw troops and military support, while assisting in rebuilding and modernizing of the country. http://bit.ly/K362an

98. Took steps to severely weaken al Qaeda and limited their ability to terrorize the world. http://yhoo.it/n5lXs6

99. Negotiated and signed a nuclear nonproliferation treaty with India. http://1.usa.gov/aHp0Cn

100. Took decisive action to use NATO to limit the slaughter of innocents in Libya, so that the Libyan people could topple the despotic Khadaffy government and determine their own fate. http://aje.me/qAh4Sj

101. Got Egyptian President/dictator Mubarak to leave the Egyptian government to the people, to determine their own fate.    http://f24.my/efvgNZ

102. In 2011, reoriented American focus from the Middle East to the Asian-Pacific region by simultaneouly engaging China and crafting new alliances with Asian countries uncomfortable with Chinese behavior.    http://bit.ly/RGlMDi

103. Restored federal agencies such as FEMA to the point that they have been able to manage a huge number of natural disasters successfully.   http://bit.ly/h8Xj7z

104. Authorized Navy SEALS to successfully secure the release of a US captain held by Somali pirates and increased patrols off the Somali coast. http://nyti.ms/efBO7B

105. Has repeatedly beefed up border security http://bit.ly/mMYB4i

106. Ordered and oversaw the Navy SEALS operation that killed Osama bin Laden. http://bit.ly/jChpgw

107. Throughan executive order, established the Homeland Security Partnership Council, which will attempt to enhance the nation's ability to "address homeland security priorities, from responding to natural disasters to preventing terrorism, by utilizing diverse perspectives, skills, tools, and resources." http://1.usa.gov/VJjLXO

Treated Soldiers and Veterans with Respect.

108. Along with Congressional Democrats, not only reauthorized families of fallen soldiers to be able to visit when the body arrives at Dover AFB, but also provided funding for it. Ended the media blackout on coverage of the return of fallen soldiers. http://nyti.ms/glqN66   http://bbc.in/gWSSkA

109. Funded Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) with an extra $1.4 billion to improve veterans' services. http://1.usa.gov/huhqfo

110. Provided active combat troops with better body armor. http://bit.ly/hzSv2h

111. Created Joint Virtual Lifetime Electronic Record program for military personnel, in order to improve the quality of their medical care. http://1.usa.gov/f4yaxW

112. Put an end to the Bush-era stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan beyond their enlistment date. (personal note: my son will be in harm's way for six fewer months with Obama as president, so you know I love this one.) http://nyti.ms/e2YQ7Q

113. Along with Congressional Democrats, supported and signed Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act, which made more money available to enable better medical care for veterans. http://1.usa.gov/fN4ur1

114. Along with Congressional Democrats, ushered through largest spending increase in 30 years for Department of Veterans Affairs, with money to go to improved medical facilities, and to assist states in acquiring or constructing state nursing homes and extended care facilities.    http://1.usa.gov/gY8O3x

115. Created the Green Vet Initiative, which provided special funding to the Labor Department to provide veterans with training in green jobs. http://bit.ly/epwUQY

116. Initiated and signed a recruitment and employment plan to get more veterans into government jobs. http://bit.ly/b48coi

117. Oversaw a $4.6 billion expansion of the Veterans Administration budget to pay for more mental health professionals. http://bit.ly/gjzTxX

118. Signed the Military Spouses Residency Relief Act, which ensures that spouses of military personnel who are forced to move because their spouse is posted for military duty will be able to avoid state taxes in their temporary residence.   http://bit.ly/1Gh0NX

119. Issued an Executive Order to improve access to mental health care for veterans, military personnel and their families. http://1.usa.gov/TP7PVZ

Refocused the Federal Government on Education.

120. Repeatedly increased funding for student financial aid, and at the same time cut the banks completely out of the process.   http://bit.ly/gYWd30   http://bit.ly/e9c7Dr   http://bit.ly/eEzTNq

121. Reformed student loan program, to make it possible for students to refinance at a lower rate.   http://nyti.ms/dMvHOt

122. Through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, invested heavily in elementary, secondary and post-secondary education.   http://1.usa.gov/gGRIAr

123. Created the Race to the Top program, which encouraged states to come up with effective school reforms and rewards the best of them.   http://bit.ly/NHtZ7L

124. Oversaw major expansion of broadband availability in K-12 schools nationwide   http://bit.ly/fNDcj3 ,

125. Oversaw major expansion in school construction. http://bit.ly/fYwNrV

126. Also through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, he put $5 billion into early education, including Head Start. http://1.usa.gov/tzT2Rr

127. Signed the Democratic-sponsored Post-9/11 GI Bill, also known as GI Bill 2.0 http://bit.ly/hPhG7J

128. Oversaw expansion of the Pell Grants program, to expand opportunity for low income students to go to college. http://bit.ly/hI6tXz

129. Along with Democratic Congress, passed and signed Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which provided an extra $12.2 billion in funds. http://1.usa.gov/dQvtUe

130. Took major new steps to protec students from ineffective for-profit colleges through "gainful employment" measures, whereby schools have to demonstrate that its students actually find work to get federal aid. http://1.usa.gov/jkzQe2

131. With First Lady Michelle Obama, passed the Healthy Hunger-Free Kids Act, which will improve nutrition in schools and make children healthier.   http://1.usa.gov/GAXkSk

Took an Adult View on Science, Technology and Health Care.

132. Created a Presidential Memorandum to restore scientific integrity in government decision-making. http://1.usa.gov/g2SDuw   

133. Opened up process for fast-tracking patent approval for green energy projects. http://bit.ly/j0KV2U

134. Eliminated Bush-era restrictions on embryonic stem cell research, and provided increased federal support for biomedical and stem cell research.   http://bit.ly/h36SSO    http://ti.me/edezge

135. Through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, committed more federal funding, about $18 billion, to support non-defense science and research labs. http://nyti.ms/fTs9t7

136. Signed Democratic-sponsored Christopher and Dana Reeve Paralysis Act, the first comprehensive attempt to improve the lives of Americans living with paralysis. http://bit.ly/fOi2rb

137. Expanded the Nurse-Family Partnership program, which provides home visits by trained registered nurses to low-income expectant mothers and their families, to cover more first-time mothers. http://bit.ly/jRRRJc

138. Obama EPA reveresed research ethics standards which allowed humands to be used as "guinea pigs" in tests of the effects of chemicals, to comply with numerous codes of medical ethics. http://bit.ly/bKgqdS

139. Conducted a cyberspace policy review.   http://1.usa.gov/gmbdvC

140. Provided financial support for private sector space programs. http://bit.ly/fn8ucr

141. Oversaw enhanced earth mapping, to provide valuable data for agricultural, educational, scientific, and government use.   http://bit.ly/dNTRyP

142. Along with Democrats in Congress, ushered through and signed a bill authorizing FDA to regulate tobacco. http://on.msnbc.com/fiKViB As a result, the FDA has Ordered Tobacco Companies to Disclose Cigarette Ingredients and banned sale of cigarettes falsely labeled as "light."

143. Through American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, provided $500 million for Health Professions Training Programs. http://bit.ly/ecQSgA

144. Increased funding for community-based prevention programs. http://bit.ly/frMPG3

145. Oversaw a 50% decrease in cost of prescription drugs for seniors. http://bit.ly/e5b1iq    http://1.usa.gov/fVNkt9

146. Eliminated the Bush-era practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug companies on price. http://bit.ly/fOkG5b

147. Two weeks after taking office, signed Democratic-sponsored Children's Health Insurance Reauthorization Act, which increased the number of children covered by health insurance by 4 million.   http://bit.ly/fDEzGv

148. Urged Congress to investigate Anthem Blue Cross for raising premiums 39% without explanation. Democratic Rep. Waxman responded by launching a probe, and Anthem Blue Cross put increase on hold for two months.    http://yhoo.it/e8Tj9C

149. Ushered through and signed Affordable Care Act, which expanded health insurance coverage to at least 30 million more people, ended many common insurance company practices that are often detrimental to those with coverage. He also established healthcare.gov, so that taxpayers could keep up with developments. http://www.healthcare.gov/

150. Through ACA, allowed children to be covered under their parents' policy until they turned 26.   http://nyti.ms/fNB26V

151. Through the ACA, provided tax breaks to allow 3.5 million small business to provide health insurance to their employees, and 29 million people will receive tax breaks to help them afford health insurance. http://nyti.ms/fNB26V

152. Through the ACA, expanded Medicaid to those making up to 133% of the federal poverty level. http://nyti.ms/ekMWpo

153. Through the ACA, health insurance companies now have to disclose how much of your premium actually goes to pay for patient care. http://nyti.ms/fNB26V

154. Provisions in theACA have already resulted in Medicare costs actually declining slightly this fiscal year, for the first time in many years, according to the Congressional Budget Office. The increase in 2011 was 4%, which is very low compared to the average 12% annual inflation rate during previous 40 years. http://1.usa.gov/oMxpTh

155. Through the ACA, expanded space exploration and discovery options to more players   http://bit.ly/PNTS7e

156. Through the Connect America Fund, pushed through and received FCC approval for a move of $8 billion in subsidies away from telephone landlines to assist lower-income rural families in accessing broadband.   http://lat.ms/vhRUEs

Strengthened the Middle Class and Families, and Fought Poverty.

157. Worked to provide affordable, high-quality child care to working families. http://bit.ly/fNfidS

158. Cracked down on companies that were previously denying sick pay, vacation and health insurance, and Social Security and Medicare tax payments through abuse of the employee classification of independent contractor.   http://nyti.ms/fOGLcj

159. Through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act , cut taxes for 95% of America's working families.   http://bit.ly/eSEI4F

160. Tax rates for average working families are the lowest since 1950. http://bit.ly/f74pD8

161. Extended and fully funded the patch for the Alternative Minimum Tax for 10 years. http://bit.ly/eFeSdP

162. Extended discounted COBRA health coverage for the unemployed from 9 months to 15 months, and he's extended unemployment benefits several times. http://aol.it/evtVxD   http://nyti.ms/emrqKJ    http://bit.ly/hOtIpg    http://bit.ly/fTT7kz

163. Provided a $20 billion increase for the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (Food Stamps). http://nyti.ms/gfLqyM

164. Signed an Executive Order that established the White House Office of Urban Affairs. http://wapo.st/eWECA8

Concrete Steps to Improve The Environment and Address Our Energy Needs.

165. Fast-tracked regulations to allow states to enact fuel efficiency standards that exceeded federal standards.    http://nyti.ms/e8e94x

166. Fast-tracked increased fuel economy standards for vehicles beginning with the 2011 model year. It was the first time such standards had been increased in a decade.   http://politi.co/hiaPKM

167. Oversaw establishment of an Energy Partnership for the Americas, to create more markets for American-made biofuels and green energy technologies. http://bit.ly/lZp73y

168. Obama EPA reversed a Bush-era decision to allow the largest mountaintop removal project in US history. http://bit.ly/lP3yEL

169. Ordered the Department of Energy to implement more aggressive efficiency standards for common household appliances.    http://1.usa.gov/g3MTbu

170. Ordered energy plants to prepare to produce at least 15% of all energy through renewable resources like wind and solar, by 2021. http://reut.rs/fV155p (As you can see, Republicans are trying hard to kill it.)

171. Oversaw the creation of an initiative that converts old factories and manufacturing centers into new clean technology centers. http://bit.ly/mjnq2R

172. Bypassed Republican opposition in Congress and ordered EPA to begin regulating and measuring carbon emissions.   http://bit.ly/froaP5

173. Obama EPA ruled that CO2 is a pollutant. http://bit.ly/iQTSNN

174. Oversaw doubling federal spending on clean energy research. http://bit.ly/iN0sCE

175. Pushed through a tax credit to help people buy plug-in hybrid cars.   http://bit.ly/j8UP5Y

176. Created a program to develop renewable energy projects on the waters of our Outer Continental Shelf that will produce electricity from wind, wave, and ocean currents.   http://1.usa.gov/fgfRWq

177. Reengaged in the climate change and greenhouse gas emissions agreements talks, and proposed one himself. He also addressed the U.N. Climate Change Conference, officially reversing the Bush era stance that climate change was a "hoax." http://bit.ly/dX6Vj3 http://bit.ly/fE2PxK http://nyti.ms/hfeqvv

178. Fully supported the initial phase of the creation of a legally-binding treaty to reduce mercury emissions worldwide. http://bit.ly/eJ6QOO

179. Required states to provide incentives to utilities to reduce their energy consumption. http://bit.ly/lBhk7P

180. Following the neglect of Bush's eight year reign, he reengaged in a number of treaties and agreements designed to protect the Antarctic. http://bit.ly/fzQUFO

181. Created tax write-offs for purchases of hybrid automobiles, and later he and Democrats morphed that program into one that includes electric cars.   http://bit.ly/glCukV

182. Mandated that federal government fleet purchases be for fuel-efficient American vehicles, and encouraged that federal agencies support experimental, fuel-efficient vehicles.   http://bit.ly/h5KZqy   http://1.usa.gov/fLWq5c    http://1.usa.gov/hmUSbk

183. Got BP to cough up $20 billion to establish Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund, to reduce the need for taxpayer funds to be used for compensation and clean up.   http://wapo.st/ds2BxT (Note: it took 20 years to get $1.3 billion for the Exxon Valdez spill. )

184. Oversaw and pushed through amendment to the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 authorizing advances from Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund for the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. http://1.usa.gov/yTRYVo

185. Actively tried to amend the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 to eliminate the liability limits for those companies responsible for large oil spills. http://nyti.ms/bxjDi3

186. Initiated Criminal and Civil inquiries into the Deepwater Horizon oil spill. http://nyti.ms/bVuB7a

187. Through his EPA, he asserted federal legal supremacy, and barred Texas from authorizing new refinery permits on its own. http://bit.ly/ww8eMd

188. Strengthened the Endangered Species Act. http://bit.ly/hscjsH

189. Obama EPA improved boiler safety standards to improve air quality, and save 6500 lives per year. http://bit.ly/jYH7nt

190. Through the EPA, attemped to take steps to severely limit the use of antibiotics in livestock feed, to increase their efficacy in humans. http://bit.ly/fBuWd2

191. Through new EPA regulations, he created a pretext for closing the dirtiest power plants in the country, by limiting emissions of mercury and other toxic gasses. http://bit.ly/rQCIgA

192. Increased funding for National Parks and Forests by 10% http://bit.ly/fbJPjY

193. Announced greatly improved commercial fuel efficiency standards. http://1.usa.gov/oQiC1K

194. Announced a huge increase in average fuel economy standards from 27.5mpg in 2010 to 35.5mpg starting in 2016 and 54.5 starting in 2025   http://1.usa.gov/qtghsW

195. Issued an Executive Order to facilitate investments in industrial energy efficiency that will help create jobs, while strengthening US manufacturing. Increased efficiency could save businesses $100 billion over the next decade. http://1.usa.gov/WsIgbx

196. Through an executive order, set up the Gulf Coast Ecosystem Restoration Council, which will to oversee Gulf Coast restoration efforts in the wake of the 2010 BP oil splll. The money to fund the restoration efforts comes from fines against BP. http://1.usa.gov/Rxjb29

But—That's Not All. . . .

197. Expanded trade agreements to include stricter labor and environmental agreements such as NAFTA. http://bit.ly/etznpY

198. Oversaw funding of the design of a new Smithsonian National Museum of African American History, which is scheduled to open on the National Mall in 2015. He protected the funding during the recent budget negotiations.   http://on.fb.me/fD0EVO    http://bit.ly/ff5Luv

199. Oversaw and passed increased funding for the National Endowment for the Arts. http://bit.ly/dFb8qF

200. Nominated Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan to the Supreme Court. Sotomayor is the first Hispanic Justice in the court's history, and the women represent only the third and fourth women to serve on the court, out of a total of 112 justices.   http://huff.to/eOChg6 http://bit.ly/i02wgP

201. Appointed the most diverse Cabinet in history, including more women than any other incoming president.   http://bit.ly/dX6vNB

202. Eliminated federal funding for abstinence-only education, and rescinded the global gag rule. http://bit.ly/eCFAI1 http://bit.ly/f92drF

203. Loosened the rules and allowed the 14 states that legalized medical marijuana to regulate themselves without federal interference.   http://huff.to/eQfa7j

204. Signed national service legislation, increasing funding for national service groups, including triple the size of the Americorps program.   http://bit.ly/idgQH5

205. Signed an Executive Order that will speed up deployment of a more comprehensive broadband infrastructure. http://1.usa.gov/M7rVpe

206. Signed an Executive Order creating jobs immediately by instructing them to reduce the time needed for review and permitting of infrastructure projects. http://1.usa.gov/GHxaYt

207. Signed a bill that provided $4.3 billion in additional assistance to 9/11 first reponders.   http://bit.ly/o7cWYS

208. Signed an Executive Order pledging support for efforts to end the global problem of violence against women and girls. http://1.usa.gov/MHTRVU

209. Signed the Claims Resolution Act, which provided $4.6 billion in funding for a legal settlement with black and Native American farmers who had been cheated out of government loans and natural resource royalties in the past. http://1.usa.gov/dGppUa

210. To help those communities devastated by Hurricane Sandy, issued an executive order setting up the Hurricane Sandy Rebuilding Task Force, and asked Congress to approve $60 billion in supplemental assistance to aid in storm recovery. http://1.usa.gov/134L7hl

211. Produced 23 Executive actions designed to make it easier for law enforcement to identify those who shouldn't have guns, thus helping them enforce the law.   http://on.wsj.com/SX9xaZ

And Did You Know?

212. Despite the characterizations of some, Obama's success rate in winning congressional votes on issues was an unprecedented 96.7% for his first year in office. Though he is often cited as superior to Obama, President Lyndon Johnson's success rate in 1965 was only 93%.   http://n.pr/i3d7cY
Okay, wise guy, any other silly questions?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 09:23 PM

Hey, Goofball--

How to Keep an Idiot Busy:

See Next Post

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 09:27 PM

How to Keep an Idiot Busy:

See Previous Post

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Oct 13 - 10:21 PM

"Benghazi??...Oh, just send Hillary out there to lie her fat ass off, and then blurt out, "What does it matter how they were killed??"

Frankly, GfS, I expected better than this from you. If you DON'T know that is not what Secretary Clinton said, you are not paying attention- and should not even think of passing on something so false. If you DO know that is not what Secretary Clinton said, and passed it on anyway, you lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Oct 13 - 07:41 AM

""THEN, we get the idiot activists who are so enamored by the thought of their own importance, that they purposely, carry on trying to deceive people for their own self aggrandizement!

Right, Don?..and Don??
""

Wrong, as usual.

Not being anything like you (a misanthropic pessimist with delusions of knowledge), I pay more attention to reality, than to the rantings of the they're all as bad as one another brigade.

I tend to agree with your hatred of corporatism, as opposed to honest capitalism, but that is the point after which we diverge.

If Obama had been in a position to gain a majority in both houses, I believe that his promised change would have happened. How else would you explain the frantic and counter productive efforts of the Tea Party Republicans to prevent him from doing anything.

We have never, in my lifetime, seen such a vicious and malicious series of attacks on an incumbent president.

Don T.

P.S. You owe Bobert an apology, IMO!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 09:35 PM

Today, White House spokesman Jay Carney was asked about the president's promise that consumers would be able to keep their health care. "What the president said and what everybody said all along is that there are going to be changes brought about by the Affordable Care Act to create minimum standards of coverage, minimum services that every insurance plan has to provide," Carney said. "So it's true that there are existing healthcare plans on the individual market that don't meet those minimum standards and therefore do not qualify for the Affordable Care Act."

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/28/21213547-obama-admin-knew-millions-could-not-keep-their-health-insurance?lite

That's from NBC, Obama's lapdog news network. The Obama administration knew all along that people wouldn't be able to keep their health plans.

NBC goes on to downplay the situation. They say 50-75% of 15 million will be affected, but 19 million Americans carry personal insurance, and 85% won't be able to continue with their plans. They will be forced to either skip insurance altogether or pay the increased rates on the policies offered by the Obamacare exchanges. If they skip the insurance, then the Gestapo (I mean the I.R.S.) will come collecting.

The middle class in America has shrunk to about 10%. Obamacare is designed to devastate that group of people. The middle class will now have to pay higher premiums for less coverage, or become criminals. And if you're not onboard with that, then you're a Tea Party terrorist.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 08:30 PM

A pretty amazing piece of video below:

http://www.1800politics.com/one-lie-another-obama-promising-can-keep-existing-healthcare-plan/

According to what Jay Carney revealed yesterday, the Obama white house has known for years that people would lose their existing healthcare plans under Obamacare. Yet here's Obama saying "If you like it, you can keep it" over the past 3-4 years. No telling how many hundreds of times he told the lie, but someone patched these 2 dozen instances into this clip.

I can't tell if Obama's a pathological liar or if he's just agenda-driven. Whatever the case, millions of people will lose their insurance (and no telling how many will die as a result), so keep that in mind as you watch this. And these are just the couple of dozen lies the filmmaker found on this one topic. Obama lies about everything, 24/7. Amazing.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 10:02 PM

Songwronger is putting his own frosting on the cake here. First of all, NBC is NOT "Obama'a lapdog news agency." Where he pulls that idea out of--well, you don't want to know.

Let's get serious here:

White House spokesman Jay Carney said today (October 30th) that it is true that many people will be able to keep the health care plan they currently have.

However, "There are existing health care plans on the individual market that do not meet those minimum standards required and therefore do not qualify for the Affordable Care Act."

In short, many people have health insurance that provides inadequate coverage in case of any serious health problem. These people will have to upgrade.

Analogy: in most states (all, perhaps) you are required by law to have accident insurance on your automobile. If, say, you have collision insurance, but not liability, the state will require that you upgrade your insurance to include liability.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 11:17 PM

Obama said categorically that if you like it, you can keep it. Said it in a dozen different ways in that video compilation. He lied. He knew that existing plans would not meet the specs of Obamacare. He lied. Look at that fucker lie smooth as goose shit over and over and over.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:51 AM

Mr. Forth .... it is ALWAYS important to attribute your sources .... anything less is ....

www.theprogressivesinfluence.com/2013/05/barack-h-obama-44th-president-commander.html

Sincerely,
Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:58 PM

Gargoyle, that was not my source. I got the list from the Daily Kos.

Actually, that same list is all over the internet. Just Google "Obama's accomplishments" and you're get dozens of web sites with that same list.

You will note, incidentally, that each item on the list is accompanied by a URL, so if you have any doubts about the item, you can look it up for yourself.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 01:39 PM

So, gargoyle, I might add, each item is accompanied by an attribution.

I wouldn't have thought more would be deemed necessary.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 10:25 PM

Getting back to the original premise of this thread:

      What the hell business is it of yours?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,.
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 12:08 AM

TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY EIGHT



From a truly impartial source .

timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/Only-248-signed-up-for-Obamacare-in-first-two-days/articleshow/25036168.cms

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Dude... REST EZ ...I am going to back down and back out of this thread... I get no pleasure pulling legs off a stoned cockroach.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:20 AM

from today's AP... a report on two people who have signed up for Affordable Insurance. And the second one now has a better plan for the same money. Which is the main reason behind the law... protect Americans from getting screwed by corporate greed... minimum standards at reasonable rates that actually meet our needs.

"New faces of health overhaul: Still all smiles
In a photo taken Monday Oct. 28, 2013, in Portsmouth, N.H., Deborah Lielasus poses behind her computer with the national health insurance enrollment website. Not long after she enrolled, the Department of Health and Human Services asked her to appear both in a video describing her experience and in photographs that could replace the stock photo on the insurance enrollment site. (AP Photo - Jim Cole)
By HOLLY RAMER
From Associated Press
November 01, 2013 5:30 AM EST

PORTSMOUTH, N.H. (AP) — It didn't take long for the friendly-looking young woman whose face was splashed across HealthCare.gov to spiral from smiling stock photo to laughingstock. As it scrambles to correct problems with the website, the Obama administration is now asking people who have successfully purchased health insurance to let their pictures be used instead.

Two of them told The Associated Press they found the site easy to navigate, were happy with the plans they purchased and were eager to share their stories in any format, including becoming the new face of the health care overhaul.

Not long after she enrolled on Oct. 3, Deborah Lielasus of Portsmouth was contacted by the Department of Health and Human Services and asked to appear both in a video describing her experience and in photographs that could replace the stock photo. She agreed, in part, to set an example for her children.

"I think it's important to show them that you shouldn't hide from being honest and being sincere and talking about something that you believe in," she said. "Although family members have said to me, 'You don't need this, don't do this, because you're just going to get hurt,' I have felt like it is important."

Opponents aren't impressed. "The White House should focus more on fixing their flawed law and less time trying to prove their law isn't broken," said Kirsten Kukowski, spokeswoman for the Republican National Committee.

Since the problem-plagued site launched Oct. 1, the stock photo has become the butt of jokes. The satirical newspaper The Onion posted an altered photo of the cover girl "visibly panicking," and others have dubbed her "Glitch Girl."

The department declined to comment specifically on whether Lielasus' picture will have a place on the HealthCare.gov home page, on which the stock photo has been replaced by icons representing various enrollment methods. It also declined to comment on the broader marketing campaign, which so far includes posting video of Lielasus and another person on social networks, along with a dozen or so images and quotes praising the health care law.

Since her video was posted, Lielasus has been criticized in news reports, online comments and personal emails for describing HealthCare.gov as easy to use even though she didn't enroll until three days after the site launched. But she wasn't sitting at her desk for 36 hours straight — she spent about an hour total over those three days — and once on the site, it was easy to navigate, she said.

"I'm not a fool," she said. "I saw that there were issues logging on and staying logged on, but I also saw that the site itself, once they're able to overcome those problems, is going to be a really user-friendly, attractive site that people of all ages and technical abilities are going to be able to manage."

In Orlando, Fla., 22-year-old Daniel McNaughton said his experience was similar. Like Lielasus, McNaughton said it was a Facebook post about his experience with HealthCare.gov that caught the administration's attention and led to his participation in the online video.

McNaughton, a student at Valencia College, said he will be paying $70 per month for a plan that covers "anything I could possibly need." That's about what he's paying now for a catastrophic plan that covers only three doctor visits per year. McNaughton said he looks forward to not having to guess whether he needs antibiotics for the sinus infections he gets every winter.

"I won't have to ration my doctor's visits," he said. "It gives me good peace of mind."

He told administration officials it was "more than OK" with him if they wanted to use his picture on HealthCare.gov.

"I think it would be a good thing to put my picture or others who've enrolled," he said. "It might make it easier for people to relate to what's going on with the exchange."


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in particular
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 01:37 PM

First, I have to say that I am not a citizen of the U.S.A, but if I were, I think I'd have to look at this debacle, without trying to colour it one way or another, and just look at the facts

I think it is plainly apparent, that there is plenty of false information, being circulated, in regards to gathering support for your present administration's programmes.

To what end, I will not speculate, nor should I, however there are some of you that should sincerely look into sobering up, and not replace rational thinking with believing the promotion campaigns, that are based on lies, false information, and foreknown repercussions to your people, that were purposely withheld.

It is my opinion, that those who participated in such behaviour, should be lawfully removed from office, being as this is huge!

I'm not going to name names, because it covers a wide spectrum, and there are just too many of them and they have cause massive damage to your government's credibility, and split the nature of your country.
That, in turn, hurts the well-being of the rest of the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 01:56 PM

I just checked.

My wife and I are covered on Medicare, and we have a good Medicare supplement insurance through AARP. The whole thing costs less per month than we pay for television / internet cable service.

No sweat.

I don't recall having to pay a medical bill in several of years. And just this year I had a couple of heart scans and a brain scan (yes, they found one) during a brief hospital visit (overnight) when I thought I might be having a stroke. Turned out to be a TIA. My doctor now has me on a couple of blood pressure drugs and I take an aspirin a day as a blood thinner.

The supplement insurance even takes care of the co-pays.

We don't have to do a thing. We're set.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in particular
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 03:56 PM

So in other words, you don't care about your fellow man, or fellow citizens, nor the impact of the fraud that has affected so many.
You, sir, are a despot.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:45 PM

Nobody, if you are talking to me, then understand that what I am saying is that, with very few exceptions, the Affordable Care Act will work just as it is supposed to, and the caterwauling of Songwronger and a few others is just noise, expressing hatred for the President because of their particular political bias and the fact that they consider him to be the wrong color to occupy the White House.

That, plus their chronic opposition to any attempt to change the nation's policies—such as providing decent, affordable health care to its citizens, and thus joining the rest of the civilized world—merely because they are afraid that it will require the obscenely wealthy in this country pay a bit more of their fair share in taxes.

Every time the matter of providing a better health care system has come up, the usual suspects start screaming, lying their heads off, and in general, acting like spoiled brats!

And the fact that you seem to consider it a fraud indicates that you might just be one of those spoiled brats.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM

Firth is your typical American "liberal." He only cares for others once he has his.

Here's an interesting new bit of information. Seems that not only did Obama and his people know that the 16+ million self-ensured Americans would get fucked out of their insurance (grandfather clauses not up to snuff), but also, a large segment of the 156 million who get employer-provided coverage will not be able to continue with their current plans:

Forbes: White House Predicted in 2010 That 93 Million Would Lose Their Health Plans under ObamaCare

....Section 1251 of the Affordable Care Act contains what's called a "grandfather" provision that, in theory, allows people to keep their existing plans if they like them. But subsequent regulations from the Obama administration interpreted that provision so narrowly as to prevent most plans from gaining this protection.

"The Departments' mid-range estimate is that 66 percent of small employer plans and 45 percent of large employer plans will relinquish their grandfather status by the end of 2013," wrote the administration on page 34552. All in all, more than half of employer-sponsored plans will lose their "grandfather status" and get canceled. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 156 million Americans—more than half the population—was covered by employer-sponsored insurance in 2013.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/10/31/forbes-obama-officials-predicted-2010-93-million-would-lose-health-pl#ixzz

So let's go back to the video of Obama telling you over the past 3 years that "If you like your health plan, you can keep it." Just 24 examples of him saying that in the 1 1/2 minute clip. And each time he said that, he knew he was lying.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in particular
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:48 PM

This may just be the end of anything liberal or progressive, and possibly a new surge of conservatives sweeping the next elections. Obama may be the best thing that ever happened to the conservatives, and yet at the same time, the most crippling thing to happen to your country, and all those other nations, who looked up to the U.S.A.
He has lied to the world, he has lied to you, and those who don't hold him accountable, more than likely, are also liars and confidence men. I would think that true liberals would strive to get to the truth, and correct it, not make more lies and excuses.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 10:44 PM

"Firth is your typical American 'liberal.' He only cares for others once he has his."

I am not wealthy by any means, Songwronger. I have mine? In comparison to WHOM??

Fat lot you know. About much of anything.

And your source of information for President Obama's "lies" is "NewsBusters?" Yet ANOTHER arch-Conservative web site.

Just more ladling from one of your favorite septic tanks.

(And that goes for your little dog [Nobody in particular], too!)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM

Mr. Firth, You seem either a bit confused, or hard of understanding. Mr. Obama, and his people have clearly been lying, or at least, intentionally been misleading people. To be insulting Songwonger, in this matter, may be your way of diverting people's attention, away from that fact.
'You can keep your healthcare plan', because you already have a public plan. That does not mean those who chose their private plans, are able to 'keep their plan', even if they liked it.

Where I live, we have socialised medicine, and it had its problems getting started, and still does, but in your country, to implement socialised medicine, your government has resorted to outright lies, to deceive, those in your own party.

When we want care better than what our form of healthcare, provides, guess what, we come here! or should I say came here. Yes, some of us would have to save up to get it, but that's how much it was worth to us, and to those whom we love.

The way your country has handled this, is indicative of the mobster mentality that seems to have overtaken your political system, leaving 'true believers' such as yourself, looking as if you have no conscience, nor connection to the truth, in any way.

Those who have voiced concern have every right to. After all, having used deception to achieve this transition, do you think that suddenly,the new system will be administered equitably??
That which comes in dishonestly, will, in fact, remain dishonest in its implementation, and administration. If you think differently, you are just foolishly deceiving yourself, into an intoxicated illusion.

Why not support something formed and implemented honestly??

When does one stop this practise, of deceiving themselves into a delusion, just to further a cause?

Before long, you will cause yourself mental damage, that your 'new form' of healthcare will not treat.

Ever think about that?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 02:56 PM

Nobody, I don't know what country you live in, but you display a considerable lack of understanding of the history of attempts to get a decent, single payer health care system in the United States. This has been going on since the time of Franklin D. Roosevelt, and every Democratic President since FDR has made attempts in that direction. The Republican fear mongers invariable start screaming "Socialized Medicine," as if it were the end of the world, despite the fact that it works quite well in a number of countries, the Scandinavian countries in particular (AND in some small far Eastern countries). During the cold war, they tried to imply that Socialized, or any move toward single payer health care, was "a Communist plot."

I'm not making this up, nor am I getting it from some biased web site. I've been on this planet long enough to have orbited the sun quite a number of times, and I remember! AND I've had a fair amount of experience with health care providers and health insurance companies to know how badly the current system needs to be thoroughly reorganized—and regulated.

By the way, the fact that you won't register and post under a consistent name undercuts your credibility. How do I know you're not just Songwronger using another name? That sort of scam has been done before.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 04:13 PM

The ACA, also known as Obama Care, was never represented to be a single payer plan, as you have alluded to, so to represent it as such, is also deception, is it not?

So allow me to ask you two questions.

In your honest assessment, why are you surprised, that so many people in your country, are now shifting their support, for both it, and your President, as the repercussions of the deceptive practises to being it about, are finally being felt?

The second question, I'll ask you, after you respond to my first.

Also, I am not Songwronger, but I have posted on this site before, under this same name.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:33 PM

First of all, as presented, it leaves a great deal to be desired. But it's about the best thing that President Obama could hope to get through with the present Congress, and even that isn't working. But if he had gone straight for a single-payer system, he would have slammed into the old curse phrase, "Socialized Medicine." He's trying for a compromise, and even the compromise isn't working.

Many of the so-called "deceptions" attributed to President Obama are severe twistings of what he's really attempting (groping for a niche in the brick wall the Republicans have set up), these twistings authored by such people as Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly of Fox News, a multitude of Right Wing web sites, and people like Songwronger who merely parrot what these people say.

Such twistings would not be necessary were it not that Congress is hell-bent on seeing to it that any attempt to change a badly flawed but highly lucrative (for health care providers and pharmaceutical companies) business remains as it is now.

I've had occasion to make use of the current health care system in this country and I can tell you some real teeth-grinders about the practices of the system. The basic operating principle seems to be that since often the patient's life and well-being is at stake, screw it to him while you have the chance. Many individual doctors, genuinely concerned about the welfare of their patients, hate the system, but there is little they can do if they need access to clinics and hospitals for their patients.

I am not enthralled with Barack Obama, but let's face it, he's no FDR. But then, not many presidents have the force of personality that FDR had to bring his programs about. President Obama is trying the best he can, but he's working against opposition who WANT to see him fail.

Even if it messes up the rest of the country as well!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:12 PM

As I understand it, in your form of government, you have a balance of powers, Congress being one part, and the executive branch being another. I find it rather disingenuous of you to say Congress is holding him up, when, in fact, he had Congress on his side when he began his first term, and many of them were voted out, as a result of his policies. Is that not true? Plus, he and his administration seems to be plagued with very serious scandals, most of which have to deal with various forms of dishonesty, and possible criminal activities, which appear to be abuses of their positions. I'm not going to list them, but even we, across the pond, have not been kept in the dark about them. As it it now, this may just be another, in the growing list.

I don't think that a Democracy is going to continue to run effectively, if the 'will of the people' amounts to deceiving the people, as to what they're being told, to believe, when it is false.

I backed up this thread, and consistent with news accounts, Mr. Obama repeatedly has made false and inaccurate statements, as to the nature of his socialised medicine bill. Is that not true?

Isn't it true, that his misleading your people has hurt Democrats as well as Republicans?

I don't want to divert, but his statements regarding Syria, hurt America's credibility, in the world, tremendously!

Is this the America that you want? Better yet, is this the America that you want to stand for, in the eyes of the rest of the world?

You alluded to that you didn't know what country I was from; What does the origin of nationality have to do with honesty and integrity?
I can tell you right now, that American policies abroad, are met with massive scepticism , as to what the truth is, regarding virtually everything that comes out of Washington.

That being the situation, most people that I've spoken to, outside your borders, do not seem to have a problem with the American people, other than the concept that they are perceived as being a bit arrogant, but good hearted, mixed with being scared.
I, myself, have noted an uneasiness on this current trip over. As it is now, we are enjoying a break from our project, and have mingled with some of your citizenry, and found them quite nervous about, not only your economy, but your nation's survival as a free land.

Now, as to my second question to you, as I mentioned before.
I asked you, "In your honest assessment, why are you surprised, that so many people in your country, are now shifting their support, for both it, and your President, as the repercussions of the deceptive practises it about, are finally being felt?" and you gave me a long, thoughtfully worded answer, based on your feelings, but failed to adequately answer my original question.

So, let's try it again, so that I may continue with my second question to you.

I do recognise that this discussion has been civil, yet on the borders of 'twisting' and factual.

I don't think that Bill O'Reilly of Fox News, in concert with Rush Limbaugh, constitute the depth of the problem, nor should you perceive me to be that naive, to accept such a simplistic reply, as to culpability to your national problems.

Try a more responsible answer. It doesn't have to be long, nor solicitous, but rather straight forward, and to the point.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:27 PM

my goo'ness. those commas look most awfully familiar.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 10:03 PM

You make a lot of allegations about Obama's lies and deceptions, nobody, which is essentially what Songwronger does--without specifics. It's bit difficult to try to respond to that sort of thing.

It's very much like asking, "Do you still beat your wife? Answer yes or no!" when, in fact, you have never beaten your wife.

Fog, no substance.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 10:03 PM

""Firth is your typical American "liberal." He only cares for others once he has his.""

The only people I have seen and heard saying "Not a penny of my money to support losers" have been Republicans.

Don Firth is a supporter of a care system which has already halved the number of poor Americans who the Republicans consider unworthy of health care.

People like Shitwrangler, who have theirs and don't give a flying fuck about anybody else.

The Republican American Dream! Trample to death anybody who impedes your climb to the top, then shut the door and let nobody else in.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:09 AM

Part of an Obamacare registration drive last week in San Francisco wasdubbed the "Healthy Ho's Party."

NEW YORK CNNMoney)

A burlesque dancer dressed as a nurse taunts her co-performer with a toy syringe, dangling the medicine seductively in an act that's meant to reflect the cat-and-mouse game of U.S. healthcare. They shimmy and eventually end up topless.

The risqué performance was part of an Obamacare registration drive last week in San Francisco, dubbed the "Healthy Ho's Party."

Organized by "Siouxsie Q," a Bay Area sex worker, the event was meant to encourage other sex workers to enroll in the new insurance exchanges. It was a rousing success: Nearly 40 men and women attended and almost all of them filed enrollment paperwork.

In the all-cash, off-the-books sex industry, workers can be particularly high risk and insurance is often out of reach. Many sex workers -- a broad term that can refer to a number of services, including sexual massage, prostitution, and escort and dominatrix work -- consider themselves self-employed entrepreneurs who can't afford to purchase healthcare. But that could all change with the Affordable Care Act.

Siouxsie, 28, has shopped for plans countless times since 2008, coming up empty each time. She and her partner recently reviewed their healthcare options and found that a joint plan would have cost between $400 and $500 a month -- an unaffordably large chunk of their incomes.

"We just couldn't swing [insurance] in the Bay Area -- we're lower middle class, recent college graduates, in Startup Land trying to make our way," she said.

But come January 1, when the new law goes into effect, she and her partner will be looking at a monthly bill of between $175 and $200. They're deciding between two plans on the California exchange and will receive a tax credit of about $275 a month (without the credit it would have cost nearly $500).

California's exchange site was down the first few times Siouxsie tried to navigate it, but she was able to successfully browse policies several times. (She nevertheless arrived at the party with stacks of paper applications so the night could continue even if the website was disrupted.)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:41 PM

Mr. Firth, I fail to see what point you are trying to make regarding Songwronger. He posted a link of Mr. Obama assuring the public, that they could keep their existing programmes, which has proven to be untrue. Mr. Obama's remarks were not, reported through the commentary of a reporter or entertainer, but the video clip was taken of him saying those words directly in front of the camera. Now you blast Songwronger for alleging something he said that is untrue.

The only person who has said or defended something untrue is you. The only person to comment anything with disregard for your fellow citizen is you.

Is this from a political standpoint, or is it just you?

I asked you for an 'honest assessment', and you have failed to do so, other than skirt the issue.

It would seem to me and others that if you had a problem with dishonesty that you would take exception to Mr.Obama's misleading comments and not Songwronger for merely posting them.

Do you wish to correct that? If so, please do, because it is impossible to find any truthful credibility in your comments. I find you are fairly articulate but have said nothing to build a premise upon.

Please, if you will, present your rebuttal using facts without resorting to further slanderous remarks of those you disagree with and pretending that your presumptions of a person's character constitutes some sort of proof that your assertions are accurate.

I've reported to you accurately the mood that I have found in a number of your citizenry of whom I have spoken to since my stay in your country and with few exceptions, I find that most of them parallel what has been presented to you, by Songwronger.

Keep in mind that I do not have a political preference one way or another, but rather am looking for the rationale as to the political debate consuming your country. Keep in mind that Washington's policies and statements do affect both your allies and the rest of the Western world and I am curious to discover why those who defend known false statements do so, so willingly.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 01:31 PM

""I asked you for an 'honest assessment', and you have failed to do so, other than skirt the issue.""

I don't know what Don Firth's answer will be, but I have a point to make on this subject.

Songwronger has a history of re-hashing every slanderous reference to Obama by every n**ger hating redneck bigot in the USA. Normally his offerings can easily be proved to be egregious garbage by ten seconds research.

This time, however, he is right, at least insofar as Obama did mistakenly say that anybody could, if he preferred, keep his present scheme, and as far as the individual is concerned, that is true.

However, if the insurance company concerned refuses to bring its terms of business up to the minimum standard required, it is the insurance company which is preventing continuity, not Obama.

This is the important distinction which apparently completely escapes the notice of the very bigotted Songwronger.

If Obama allowed sub standard healthcare to be sold to citizens, Songwronger would be in the front line of protest at his lack of concern for their wellbeing, because his target isn't policies, it's Obama, the black man in the White House.

Would you expect a civilised government to allow the sale of sub standard Food?........Drugs?.......Clothing? Cars? Housing?.......NO?

Then why sub standard healthcare, or no healthcare? Both perfectly O.K. with the Republican Party!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:05 PM

if the insurance company concerned refuses to bring its terms of business up to the minimum standard required, it is the insurance company which is preventing continuity, not Obama.

Amen.

UIn addition, Of course, one also needs to remember that it was the RepubliClowns that insisted that the insurance industry be accommodated ( READ: pandered to) in any health-care legislation.

So one should take this matter up with the insurance companies and the RepubliClowns, not the Prez.

Apparently, the Prez expected the Insurance Industry to "do the right thing" instead of pursue the almighty buck - and he should have known better.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM

Ah, fortunately I've decided to have lunch where they have WI-FI, so For a moment longer I can respond.

Don T does make a valid point and at the same time doesn't pretend that Obama's statements didn't happen.

First of all, I am not aware of Songwronger's history one way or another. When I came to this forum upon this visit, I just perused the topic headings to see what people were re-acting to in the latest current news. I don't feel that I'm in a proper position to comment on your allegation that Songwronger is a bigoted such and such. However, from what I've seen as merely a visitor, there does seem to be a penchant to accuse a person with a different view with reckless abandon of common decency.

I, myself, referred to Mr.Firth a 'despot', but not for his political views one way or another, but for the content of his comment, that his Medicare plan worked for him, and he didn't seem too concerned about other people who had no medical coverage. In that regard, my comment would be accurate without characterising him with a blanket accusation of his overall outlook. Mr. Firth has not given a reasonable reply, as to cause me to change my first observation, though I have given him repeated opportunities to do such.

I tend to agree with your assessment of the monopolistic nature of insurance companies and am personally persuaded that a realistic reform bill in regards to that would have been a better solution in dealing with that issue.

I do not and cannot support a leader of a country with out and out lying to its populace, just in order to foster his pet project or programmes. Just tell the people the truth and let them decide. Isn't that what a Democracy is all about anyway?

On most every other point you make I don't seem to have issue with other than one. In your closing statement you say, "Then why sub standard healthcare, or no healthcare? Both perfectly O.K. with the Republican Party!"
My question to you would be, Do you think that there are no poor Republicans? And furthermore, Don't you think there are wealthy Democrats? It seems to me that people from both the major parties would be equally affected, as most people would seem to be outside the ruling class, even if Mr. Obama does belong to the Democrat Party.

Something about this whole matter seems very suspicious and destructive to me. Otherwise it could have been presented truthfully.
If the people like it, let them vote on it honestly and let them know exactly what is in it, what is not in it, what it covers, what it doesn't cover and do so accurately.

If the insurance companies offer something different, let them do so honestly even if it takes a reform bill to accomplish it.

Comments?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM

Don T.:   ". . . if the insurance company concerned refuses to bring its terms of business up to the minimum standard required, it is the insurance company which is preventing continuity, not Obama.

This is the important distinction which apparently completely escapes the notice of the very bigotted Songwronger."

Nobody, Don T. and Greg F. in the two above posts have made my point abundantly clear, and I suggest you read both of their posts very closely.

Further above, I said this. And I added that if, for example, the law requires that you have full insurance on your automobile, and all YOU have is collision, the law would be remiss if it did not require that you get liability insurance or change to a company that will provide it.

Same principle. And it should be self-evident!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:34 PM

Mr. Firth, Once again I must say that your analogy is quite disingenuous. Those who choose to have an auto mobile is different than those who are already born to chose to be living! If you chose to have an auto mobile than you should be able to cover any damage you may cause to others should you be in an accident and cause another to suffer damage resulting from an accident. This is called 'liability'. Are you trying to allude that merely being born is a liability to others??


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:06 PM

My lunch is over so I'm off and about. I'll check back later to see if Mr. Firth will ever decide to be honest and forthright.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not protesting the need for some socialised medicine. What I am questioning is why the need to present it one way, which turns out to be untruthful and why some people seem to be so content with your own citizenry being lied to and thinking that this is either an excusable or a justifiable practise.

In a Democracy why is a lie more preferable to the truth, then let the people decide based on accurate information and then pretend that it didn't happen? That is definitely a curiosity.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:33 PM

Pomposity is SO pretty. Just love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:34 PM

Nobody, your objection to my analogy is disingenuous and downright nit-picky. The illustration is clear

"Are you trying to allude that merely being born is a liability to others??"

It should not be. But it CAN be. Think about it! Your parents are liable for you care until you reach maturity. Then YOU are liable. However, in those cases (say, a debilitating physical or mental handicap), a CIVILIZED society will endeavor to see to that person's care. If, however, you are mentally and physically capable, it is YOUR social responsibility to take whatever precautions are necessary to keep from being a burden on society.

INCLUDING (barring a tax-supported health care system) seeing that you have adequate health care insurance (but even there, you would be paying taxes, part of which go for the health care system).

And many health insurance companies do not offer adequate coverage. It is your responsibility to see that you go with an insurance company that does. You are free to choose your health insurance, as the ACA says. UNLESS that company's insurance offers inadequate coverage.

Crystal clear to me. And to any intelligent, thinking person.

Don Firth

P. S. Now we'll see what objection Nobody comes up with next!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:44 PM

I, too, will be gone, probably for the rest of the day (spending some time with REAL people).

I AM being honest and forthright. It's Nobody who refuses to see the obvious.

Yeah, Ebbie. Ain't it a real snort!?? It's become abundantly clear that Nobody is heavily into the Obama hate-fest.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:59 PM

""I, myself, referred to Mr.Firth a 'despot', but not for his political views one way or another, but for the content of his comment, that his Medicare plan worked for him, and he didn't seem too concerned about other people who had no medical coverage.""

Point by point then. Don Firth's comment didn't indicate a lack of concern about others. We have a saying on Mudcat that we use when giving an opinion on something by which we are not directly affected. "I don't have a dog in this fight!". That is what Don Firth meant, that he isn't directly affected, but has strong opinions on the subject.

""I tend to agree with your assessment of the monopolistic nature of insurance companies and am personally persuaded that a realistic reform bill in regards to that would have been a better solution in dealing with that issue.""

""In your closing statement you say, "Then why sub standard healthcare, or no healthcare? Both perfectly O.K. with the Republican Party!"""

These are best answered together!

Thanks to the ridiculous idea in US politics that a majority is sixty, rather than fifty percent, the Republican Senators and Congressmen in Washington have, by using stonewall tactics to block any and all initiatives by Obama, succeeded in producing the healthcare system piloted originally by Republican Mitt Romney when he was a state governor, almost unaltered, and it bears little resemblance to his original single payer plan.

Calling it Obamacare is a misnomer!

It was passed with great reluctance on the Republican side, and since it has almost halved the 47 million US citizens who were abandoned without healthcare by the Republicans under G.W.Bush, I stand by the above statement. When I speak of the Republican Party I am not referring to their voters, but to the Repulican Senators and Congressmen, who really don't give a toss about the health of poor people (or "losers", which is how they refer to them).

""I do not and cannot support a leader of a country with out and out lying to its populace, just in order to foster his pet project or programmes. Just tell the people the truth and let them decide.""

Could you support one who believed that the insurance companies would exhibit sufficient self interest to comply, and was mistaken?

That is the true situation here.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 04:34 PM

Incidentally Nobody, the American people have no opportunity to decide anything directly, other than electing representatives. From that point on, those representatives do whatever they think will produce the desired effect.

The Washington Republicans being a fine example of the tail wagging the dog, are in thrall to the TEA (Taxed Enough Already) Party, which is actually a pressure group, not a party, but has immense political clout.

Whatever was Obama's desired effect is largely immaterial, as the system is used to block his every move.

And don't get the idea that the Republicans care about poor republican voters, any more than poor democratic ones.

They just DON'T!

In a land where the worth of a man is defined by the number of zero's on his salary cheques, the poor are left to sink or swim. The constant refrain is "I won't pay one penny tax to support losers".

We will never know what improvement Obama's presidency might have produced, had the TEA Party and Washington Republicans cared one jot about the American people, outside of a polling booth, and that is IMHO a national, and in all probability an international tragedy.

Don T.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:07 PM

I admit that after my last comments that I just had to see if and how they got twisted and I was correct.

First, I am not on a 'hate-fest' with your President. My initial objection was to his lying to the nation, Period!

As to the insurance companies, I favour laws universally to restrict their abuses of people for mere profit.

As to Mr. Firth, in my original question to him I asked for 'his honest assessment' and now after a series of twisting, he has not been able to adequately give me one, but has shifted every which way but giving a straight answer.

I have said that I am not opposed to socialised medicine but I do disagree with the government lying to its people and have asked you as to how you approve or justify it. Your responses show that some of you think it's just fine.

I have pointed out to you that in a Democracy people should be told the truth and then let them decide or have a say in it. You disagree or should I ask 'Do you disagree?'

The only logical assumption is that your opinions are predicated on a lie, and to ask for an 'honest assessment' is in itself an impossibility. To some here, honesty seems to be an 'inconvenience'.

That is the same mentality that gave credence to Hitler's blaming the Jews for burning the Rheichstag in Berlin. But this time it's anyone who disagrees with going along with a lie.

What next?
Who's next?
Which fellow citizens should be allowed to be rounded up for their 'final solution' just to accommodate this and other lies being allowed and being supported to be believed?

If this is the case, then America has deteriorated to hitler's Germany or Stalin's Russia.
You may protest vehemently but the evidence is right in front of you. You may disagree what you've become but how can you deny it?
What next, sympathising with those poor Nazis??


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:09 PM

Interesting exchange.

Nobody in Particular - In defense of Firth, he's not thinking clearly. The propaganda organs in America have become expert at forcing opinions on people, and then making people believe those opinions are their own. We've been polarized into thinking we're supporting the "conservatives" or the "liberals," but at the end of the day a fascist agenda has been advanced. Witness the people here saying Obama "had no choice" but to sign the health care bill which he stumped for so enthusiastically. It's a fascist giveaway to the insurance companies, yet Obama's supporters continue to distance him from the thing and call him a liberal.

But one does what one can. The U.S. has 100 senators (2 from each state). They serve 6-year terms, and 1/3 stand for re-election every 2 years. This time around (in the 2014 election) several of the senators are Democrats from red states. They belong to Obama's party, but they were elected as a protest in states that are traditionally Republican. Those Democratic senators now need to justify to the Republican majorities in their states exactly WHY they should continue in office. After the fiasco of Obamacare, they will have to distance themselves from Obama. I plan to send the following letter to those senators, plus many, many other elected representatives:

Dear Senator X:

As I'm sure you know by now, the Obama administration's continued narrowing of the "grandfather clause" in the Affordable Care Act will make it impossible for upwards of 100 million Americans to keep their health insurance plans. Yet over the past three years President Obama promised that "If you like your health insurance, you can keep your health insurance." He lied. Hundreds of times. These lies will lead to loss of insurance coverage and loss of life.

Please initiative and/or support a move to impeach President Obama on the lying issue. If you do not support impeachment, please support the appointment of a Special Prosecutor to look into the matter. After all, this is murder he's committing.

Thank you.

xxxx

Impeachment is initiated in the House of Representatives, then passed to the Senate. The Senate is currently under Democratic control, but with Obama lying about the insurance thing and the senators needing to make a statement...who knows how a vote would go? But impeachment would just be cutting one head off of a hydra. It would be more desirable to see a special prosecutor appointed. Once the prosecutor begins to investigate, nothing is out of his purview. He (or she) could investigate Obama's criminal (and terroristic) use of hysteria recently regarding Syria, his gun-running to supply the drug cartels of Mexico, his birth status, his use of the I.R.S. to target political opponents, his drone murders, his targeting of U.S. citizens for death without trial, and so on. The investigation would reveal the extent of Democratic AND Republican involvement in the things mentioned above.

Here's the most interesting reading I've come across lately on Obamacare. The article breaks down how a scam is run and walks you through how Obamacare was sold to the American people:

Obamacare: The Biggest Insurance Scam in History


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:03 PM

Songwronger, my thinking is very clear. It's YOU that is befuddled by reading too many Right Wing Blogs and newsletters.

==========

Nobody, first of all, I DID answer your question. My answer—COMPLETE—is in the post that immediately follows the posting of your question. That is the situation, and if my answer didn't satisfy you, then that's your problem, not mine. Claiming repeatedly that I didn't answer your question when I clearly did is readily discernible by anyone with a modicum of sense who cares to review the issue, and for you to repeatedly make the claim demonstrates that you are just out to harass me.

Now why might that be!??

Now—educate yourself:
Romneycare vs. Obamacare: Lessons for today's 'shutdown' debacle

You won't hear many Republicans say it, but Mitt Romney's health-care insurance program in Massachusetts, seen as a model for the Affordable Care Act, has been largely successful and popular.


By Brad Knickerbocker, Staff writer / September 29, 2013

Back during the 2012 presidential campaign, President Obama had fun tweaking his Republican opponent about "Romneycare," the health-care insurance program Mitt Romney had cited as one of the key successes of his time as governor of Massachusetts.

Romneycare, Mr. Obama said over and over, had been the model for the Affordable Care Act – "Obamacare" – now at the center of a highly toxic congressional debate that could see a government shutdown when the new fiscal year begins at midnight Monday.

[Latest update: The Republican-led House has tied a spending bill that would avert a shutdown to delaying Obamacare for one year. That kicks it back to the Senate, where Democratic leaders say that's a no-go. The Senate isn't scheduled to meet again until Monday, just hours before many federal programs could halt or be slowed down as hundreds of thousands of civilian employees are furloughed.]

Mr. Romney signed the Massachusetts program into law in 2006. So seven years later, how has it done? More to the political point, what do people in the Bay State think of their health-care insurance system – which, like Obamacare, includes an individual mandate requiring everyone to obtain coverage or face a fine and a marketplace where the uninsured can purchase coverage?

At first, there was a lot of skepticism in Massachusetts – from those on the right against "socialized medicine," and from those on the left pushing for a single-payer system.

The Providence Journal next door in Rhode Island had this to say about Romneycare on its editorial page Sunday:

"The big difference between the programs is that the federal version puts more emphasis on controlling costs. That makes Obamacare arguably more conservative than the original Romneycare.

"For example, Obamacare proposes bundling payments for a medical condition. That means payment will be a set amount covering the soup-to-nuts treatment for an ailment, such as foot surgery. That removes incentives for ordering more tests or treatments than needed – while rewarding medical providers for doing a good job the first time around.

"It bears noting that Massachusetts is less generous in determining who gets subsidies. It helps pay for the coverage of those earning up to 300 percent of the federal poverty level. The federal government sets the limit for subsidies at up to 400 percent of the poverty level."

So Obamacare is "more conservative" than Romneycare (at least in its original form), according to this analysis.

Romneycare got tweaked over the years, including in ways that control costs. As a result, the Providence newspaper points out, the fiscally conservative Massachusetts Taxpayers Foundation has called Romneycare "a well thought-out piece of legislation."

"There's a lot of wild accusations that the law is breaking the bank in Massachusetts, and that is simply not the case," foundation president Michael Widmer told Forbes during the 2012 presidential campaign. "I think the state's healthcare reform has been a huge success and is probably the best policy achievement in the last 25 years."

A recent poll by the Massachusetts Medical Society, a statewide physician group, finds that most people in Massachusetts today are generally satisfied with the health-care system there.

"Eighty-four percent of residents expressed satisfaction with the care they received over the last year, including 56 percent who indicated they are 'very satisfied' and 28 percent who are 'somewhat satisfied,'" the survey report states. Seventy-three percent of residents reported that gaining access to health care they need is "not difficult," and for serious medical problems, 86 percent said the amount of time they needed to wait was not a problem.

While no health-care insurance system – private or public – is perfect, the bottom line in Massachusetts, as the Hill newspaper in Washington reported last month, is that "The vast majority of Massachusetts residents are satisfied with their healthcare under the state's 2006 reform law."

That may have been what Sen. Ted Cruz (R) of Texas – chief opponent of Obamacare – was worrying about recently.

Speaking to fellow conservative Sean Hannity on Fox News, he warned that Americans would become so happy with Obamacare – "addicted" is the word he used – that opponents like himself would never be able to kill it.

From the Christian Science Monitor
=========

From the Washington Post:

This is why Obamacare is canceling some people's insurance plans

By Sarah Kliff, Published: October 29 at 12:24 pm

Some -- or maybe even most -- of the plans offered on the individual insurance market right now don't meet certain requirements in the health-care law. They may not offer preventive care without co-payment, for example, or leave out coverage of maternity care, one of the health-care law's 10 essential benefits.

[read the rest of the article HERE.]

==========

Interesting fact worth taking note of:

According to a recent survey, a large percentage of the American population are very much in favor of the Affordable Care Act.

And a large percentage of those very same people do NOT favor "Obamacare."

And they are the same thing!!

"Wotthehell, archy, wotthehell!!"

Once again, I think that there are a lot of people running around loose out there who are in dire need of a good, brisk dope-slap.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:26 PM

Yes, it's pretty crazy for men not to want maternity care on their policies, isn't it?

You're in step #6 of the Obamacare con, Mr. Firth. The final step, which is to get you to walk away without knowing you've been conned. Amarillo Slim said you can shear a sheep many a time but skin him only once. They'll want to shear you again when they start up "debates" on defunding Social Security and Medicare.

Step # 6. The In-And-In

The purpose of the final phase of the con is to make sure the victims do not realize they've been conned.

Obama signed the ACA on March 23, 2010. Immediately the marketing began. The three words we heard the most to describe it were universal, affordable and guaranteed. Of course, the ACA is none of those. But members told us personally that if they told the truth, they wouldn't be re-elected.

Progressive groups started the work of explaining the advantages of the new health law to the public. The few positive aspects of the law were promoted without explaining the big picture. Overall, the ACA is similar to other neoliberal economic policies; it defunds and destroys our public health insurances and further privatizes health care.

The end goal of the ACA con, to make sure people do not realize they have been conned, is ongoing. As we will see below, salespeople, often the same nonprofits who pushed the ACA, are getting big money to sell insurance with Madison Avenue marketing manipulation tactics.

At the same time, leading single-payer advocacy groups fear further marginalization in their communities and so are afraid to tell the truth about Obamacare. The public has been so hoodwinked by the partisan debate between Republicans and Democrats, based on misinformation from both sides, that single-payer advocates are afraid if they tell the truth, their allies, many of whom are Democrats, will push them away. So the truth has few emissaries, while the well-funded deceivers continue the ACA con.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 10:20 PM

I'm not that easily conned, Songwronger. I already have a good, nominally priced health insurance policy which the ACA deems okay. I have had occasion to use it from time to time, and it has proven quite adequate, thank you.

Lots of people are already set up. Your scaremongering is nothing more than meaningless noise and a waste of bandwidth.

Have you ever thought of taking up a hobby to occupy your surplus time?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 11:28 PM

Like I said, you got yours, so screw the rest, right? Hope you have maternity coverage with that plan, or it's unacceptable.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:00 AM

No, Songwronger, you are trying to judge me by your own moral code. I would like to see everybody as well set up as I am, and I see no reason why, under the Affordable Care Act, this should not be possible. The fact that I AM well set takes nothing from anybody else.

And through wise research, our coverage is well within our modest means.

Although such is covered by our plan, my wife is beyond her childbearing years. But those who anticipate the need should have coverage.

Hah! Missed me again!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:19 AM

""Once again, I think that there are a lot of people running around loose out there who are in dire need of a good, brisk dope-slap.""

AMEN to that!

And you might like to extend that to the tinfoil hat brigade on this forum!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:58 AM

You Also Can't Keep Your Doctor

I had great cancer doctors and health insurance.My plan was cancelled. Now I worry how long I'll live.

Edie Littlefield Sundby Nov. 3, 2013 Wall Street Journal

Everyone now is clamoring about Affordable Care Act winners and losers. I am one of the losers.

My grievance is not political; all my energies are directed to enjoying life and staying alive, and I have no time for politics. For almost seven years I have fought and survived stage-4 gallbladder cancer, with a five-year survival rate of less than 2% after diagnosis. I am a determined fighter and extremely lucky. But this luck may have just run out: My affordable, lifesaving medical insurance policy has been canceled effective Dec. 31.

My choice is to get coverage through the government health exchange and lose access to my cancer doctors, or pay much more for insurance outside the exchange (the quotes average 40% to 50% more) for the privilege of starting over with an unfamiliar insurance company and impaired benefits.

Countless hours searching for non-exchange plans have uncovered nothing that compares well with my existing coverage. But the greatest source of frustration is Covered California, the state's Affordable Care Act health-insurance exchange and, by some reports, one of the best such exchanges in the country. After four weeks of researching plans on the website, talking directly to government exchange counselors, insurance companies and medical providers, my insurance broker and I are as confused as ever. Time is running out and we still don't have a clue how to best proceed.

Two things have been essential in my fight to survive stage-4 cancer. The first are doctors and health teams in California and Texas: at the medical center of the University of California, San Diego, and its Moores Cancer Center; Stanford University's Cancer Institute; and the M.D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston.

The second element essential to my fight is a United Healthcare PPO (preferred provider organization) health-insurance policy.

Since March 2007 United Healthcare has paid $1.2 million to help keep me alive, and it has never once questioned any treatment or procedure recommended by my medical team. The company pays a fair price to the doctors and hospitals, on time, and is responsive to the emergency treatment requirements of late-stage cancer. Its caring people in the claims office have been readily available to talk to me and my providers.

But in January, United Healthcare sent me a letter announcing that they were pulling out of the individual California market. The company suggested I look to Covered California starting in October.

You would think it would be simple to find a health-exchange plan that allows me, living in San Diego, to continue to see my primary oncologist at Stanford University and my primary care doctors at the University of California, San Diego. Not so. UCSD has agreed to accept only one Covered California plan—a very restrictive Anthem EPO Plan. EPO stands for exclusive provider organization, which means the plan has a small network of doctors and facilities and no out-of-network coverage (as in a preferred-provider organization plan) except for emergencies. Stanford accepts an Anthem PPO plan but it is not available for purchase in San Diego (only Anthem HMO and EPO plans are available in San Diego).

So if I go with a health-exchange plan, I must choose between Stanford and UCSD. Stanford has kept me alive—but UCSD has provided emergency and local treatment support during wretched periods of this disease, and it is where my primary-care doctors are.

Before the Affordable Care Act, health-insurance policies could not be sold across state lines; now policies sold on the Affordable Care Act exchanges may not be offered across county lines.

What happened to the president's promise, "You can keep your health plan"? Or to the promise that "You can keep your doctor"? Thanks to the law, I have been forced to give up a world-class health plan. The exchange would force me to give up a world-class physician.

For a cancer patient, medical coverage is a matter of life and death. Take away people's ability to control their medical-coverage choices and they may die. I guess that's a highly effective way to control medical costs. Perhaps that's the point.

Ms. Sundby lives in California.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:22 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:09 AM

Finally a useful discussion.
With all of the Songwronger bashing going about, I find that his post is both comprehensive and presents a clear rebuttal to the debate.

Whether one agrees with what he is putting forth, at least the issue is made a bit more clear and I also find that there is a rational understanding on what is clearly misunderstandings if not outright lying and fraud.

As previously noted by myself and others, there does seem to be matters that have been predicated on lies and manipulations of the truth. I don't find it surprising that it appears that this dilemma rests on all sides of your political system.

What does surprise me is that this matter hasn't been investigated further at the onset, which indicates that the fraud is more widespread than being confined to one major party or department more than the other.

As to Mr. Firth, you insist that you have been straight forward with me, when in fact you have not, unless you have actually convinced yourself that your misinformation spreading is indeed the truth.
It is plainly clear that there has been and continuing to be massive lying going on about this issue. Why in the earth anyone cannot admit this is beyond me. It is so obvious that to portray it in any other light means that someone is either hiding something or very indoctrinated to the point of being very mentally disturbed behind it.

This of course has a damaging effect to your country's status to your allies and the rest of the world at large.

As to myself and those within our company we love America and all that it has stood for. (Note in passing that I've used the past tense). We love your audiences and found a genuine likeability to so many of the people. I find that the local people that we have dealt with have been wonderful as well as willing to be most helpful. I shutter to think of a widespread scam to harm any of them.

I do not wish to stir up any controversy about what observations I've made and have thought that others, such as yourselves, in the entertainment industry would have been more objective and able to see clearly as to what is actual truth as opposed to a mere performance by bad actors.

Why this is clear to me and not yourselves is puzzling, but then I'm not the one having to make up flimsy excuses for such widespread cheap and tawdry behaviour.

I truly hope for your sakes that your system will clean up their act and you all have access to the best medicinal services to which you should be entitled. If there is criminal activity that restricts you from it, I hope that they are dealt with accordingly.

Being able to get medical help should be free of political differences as well as not limited by an industry that puts money before the well-being of their patients.

This is what the focus should be worldwide.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 01:30 PM

Nobody:   "As to Mr. Firth, you insist that you have been straight forward with me, when in fact you have not, unless you have actually convinced yourself that your misinformation spreading is indeed the truth."

Specific instances, please.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:24 PM

Often when on the set, whether it be a shooting location or sound stage there will be disagreements with the artists. When that happens we try to gather constructive suggestions that does not compromise the artists integrity while at the same time gets the job done.

While it is apparent that most everyone seems to not be satisfied with how this health care programme is being being implemented or the fairness of it, perhaps finding an alternative solution would be a better use of time than the infighting and needless bickering going on and about.

Though I normally use these breaks in production to get away from executive decisions regarding production sometimes the wheels keep spinning. When I told an associate on my staff about the controversy, she merely suggested in her simple way, "Do what we do all the time, find the best all the way around."

So in light of that suggestion I throw it out to you. What would you like see or what suggestions would you consider as a way to resolve this crisis? Keep in mind that health care should be available to everyone at a reasonable cost while those who do not need every service do not have to subsidise those who do. If you prefer to have private companies cover you, what do you suggest?

As to Mr Firth, I've answered that question before. I find it necessary to go over it again as a means to transfer focus on to you. This is about health care, not self serving your ego.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:18 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:39 PM

Agile little tap dance there, Nobody.

Interesting that this is a dodge that Guest from Sanity pulls all the time. "I've already answered that and I'm not going to tell you again," apparently hoping that I'll spend the rest of my life digging back though old posts looking for something that isn't there.

If you can't restate the answer, I shall conclude that there was no answer.

========

I find it highly interesting that those who bitch the most about having difficulties with "Obamacare" (the Affordable Care Act) are the very same people who have been frothing at the mouth in their hatred for President Obama right from the start.

Whereas those who like President Obama, or are at least fairly indifferent, don't seem to be having all these problems.

Curious. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:28 PM

Whereas those who like President Obama, or are at least fairly indifferent, don't seem to be having all these problems.

Curious. . . .


Ain't it just.....


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 07:52 PM

Mr. Firth, I do not wish to engage in your destructive, glib buffoonery. You are wishing to engage me in talking about you. I'm not the slightest bit interested. I put forth a proposal to discuss the health care issue and further options to the one being discussed.
However I will give you this; I shall look on this topic and look for a Guest from Sanity, and see what you are talking about.

Other than this I am not willing entertain your invitation to dissect each other with endless and needless bashing. I would think you've had your fill doing such with Songwronger.

Have a pleasant evening and get some much needed rest. Perhaps you can sleep off your hangover from yourself and be refreshed enough in the morning to discuss the topic at hand.

Perhaps the comments from Guest from Sanity may shed some light as to why you say that person feels the need to deal with you as you allege as well.

Until then, I'm open to listening to any suggestions to the health care issue. I've had a few related ideas myself.

Good night Mr. Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:16 PM

You are the buffoon here, Nobody, and frankly I find you to be part kibitzer, part repetitive, uninformative bore.

GoodBYE.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:28 PM

Not to mention: Pretentious and pseudo-culchad. lol


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:31 PM

(Most intelligent thing he's posted yet!)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:44 PM

I was responding to:

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:18 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:15 PM

Mr Firth, Once again you you display a degree of being disingenuous. Guest from Sanity's last comment only indicated that a return would be in about a week. The reason was not indicated. I could not tell if the remark was done out of sarcasm or as was indicated, that simply there was to be a return in about a week's time.

I read some of your exchanges with a number of posters and you made some reasonable assertions and expounded emphatically, but you exaggerated on half truths. One example was concerning the Federal Reserve System. Both Guest from Sanity and Songwronger pointed out that your current system came into existence in 1913. You're contention was that it was from the early formation of your government. Guest from Sanity correctly said that the time you indicated the banking system was formed the money was backed by a gold standard. That is true.

Songwronger indicated numerous subjects about the current health care debate and you provided a 'Politifact' link which, in my opinion was a good idea. However, while going through the topics related to the health care debate I found this:
"6. Under Obamacare, people who "have a doctor they've been seeing for the last 15 or 20 years, they won't be able to keep going to that doctor." Mostly False.

U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., July 31, 2013 in a Fox News interview

Some have suggested that Obamacare would interfere with doctor-patient relationships. Actually, there's no more interference than what existed before Obamacare. Right now, patients can lose access to their doctors when their insurance policies change. This typically happens when employers switch plans or when workers switch (or lose) jobs. Under Obamacare, some patients who buy health insurance through the marketplace could lose access to their current doctor, but it's difficult to predict how many. And it would be because they have a new insurance plan. We rated this claim Mostly False."

Since then, July 31, 2013, when this was written, this has now turned out to be 'mostly true'. This is because of the overly burdensome and expensive mandates put upon private insurers.

And then there is this:
"9. Because of Obamacare, health care premiums have "gone up slower than any time in the last 50 years." False.

President Barack Obama, Oct. 3, 2012, in a presidential debate

The historical data for health care premiums only goes back 14 years; there's no evidence to support the idea that premium increases are at a 50-year low. Overall health care costs have slowed down, but even there, Obama exaggerated the impact of his health care law. Experts say slowing costs are due to a variety of reasons, including the recent recession. Giving all the credit to the new law overstates the case. We rated the statement False."

This is just as it says, a false statement from your President.

This happens to coincide with my statements upon my arrival into this thread.

What's more, is that since this, more misleading statements from him have come to light and currently the news broadcasts are inundated with them.

So you may wish to consider these before you make such emphatic statements and accusations to your fellow posters.

Now I'm not saying that everything Songwronger or Guest from Sanity have said I totally agree with. I also cannot totally disagree with everything you have said, as well. But I would suggest to you to keep the dialogue positive and not to degenerate into your condescending remarks to those who you have differences with. Finding a middle ground is preferable way to exchange ideas, rather than attempting to beat down those with different points of view. From doing this innovation blossoms forth!

As previously said, I believe I've come up with some ideas having been on socialised medicine myself for a number of years.

Let's keep it positive. Let's be the innovators. Perhaps something may appeal to both sides of the debate that was not considered before, and who knows what may come out of it.

Hopefully less bashing and bickering and more peace and productivity!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:56 PM

Nobody, there is a history here that goes back several years, and you simply don't know the dynamics involved.

The fact is that for the most part, you are pontificating on something you know nothing about.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:43 AM

the overly burdensome and expensive mandates put upon private insurers.


Now that would be amusing - if it wasn't total horseshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 12:01 PM

Greg and Mr. Firth, I find it rather amusing that the quote Greg has referred to is a 'cut and paste' from the 'Politifact' site that Mr. Firth so dutifully provided to Songwronger. I'm still chuckling myself! Perhaps Mr. and you should have a meeting of the minds regarding that matter, but as Mr. Firth has aptly pointed out, with reasons he is unwilling to recognise, it may begin a new history that could go on for years!

Allow me: "Arguments would not go on for so long, if the wrong was only on one side."

Care to pontificate?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 12:10 PM

Now I'm chuckling even more. Greg was correct in pointing out the quote, but even further in error for not recognising that the reasons people are being dropped is exactly as I asserted!

Well at least this argument won't last so long; at least one side has conceded to misunderstand. Now see if you can follow the lead!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 01:06 PM

there is no such thing as Obamacare... the Affordable Care Act is the end result of TeaParty/Republican obstruction and Democrats hedging around a plan that was the legacy of Mitt Romney before he ran for president - and lost. There is plenty wrong with the Act... but there was even more wrong with the existing system that has been a gravy train for the insurance industry and lawyers for decades.

If you already have health insurance through your employer or are in the Medicare system... there is nothing for you to do, except maybe cross your fingers & hope Congress doesn't figure out a new way to screw you.

How about we start a new thread to brainstorm what may or may not be the best way to handle health care in one of the richest nations in the world that still has millions of its citizens out in the cold, so to speak, unable to afford health care insurance or medical expenses that arise.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 01:40 PM

Good for you! Someone who wants to keep on the subject and not tries to transfer the subject onto focusing on themselves!!

While we're at this conjuncture I found this on the Yahoo News page. Keep in mind that the Yahoo News page is neither Liberal nor Conservative, but open to every one. What I especially noted was the comments after the article and equally important was the number of 'likes' and 'dislikes' in regards to each comment. I expanded the comments quite a number of times to get a larger reading of both comments and to see if people supported or rejected the ideas being voiced.
I believe the comments and responses speak for themselves, along with some of them being rather enlightening!!

Ready??   Go for it!

Yahoo News, front page

In light of this, I suggest to some on here that we follow through on Sciencegeek's and my earlier suggestion and leave the petty bickerers to wish upon a star while admiring themselves in the mirror!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 01:46 PM

Thank you, Sciencegeek, for returning this thread to the subject.

Nobody, one last word to you:   as far as the dynamics between a couple of Mudcat posters (Guests who don't sign in, but snipe from the underbrush) and regular members such as myself, you are sticking your nose into matters you obviously don't know anything about. Perhaps you should refrain from your pontificating and just lurk for awhile until you get a clue as to what is going on. Or keep your comments limited to the subject at hand instead of making personal comments about other posters.

Now—back to our regular broadcast.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:21 PM

Someone wants to keep focusing on themselves!!

I re-iterate:

While we're at this conjuncture I found this on the Yahoo News page. Keep in mind that the Yahoo News page is neither Liberal nor Conservative, but open to every one. What I especially noted was the comments after the article and equally important was the number of 'likes' and 'dislikes' in regards to each comment. I expanded the comments quite a number of times to get a larger reading of both comments and to see if people supported or rejected the ideas being voiced.
I believe the comments and responses speak for themselves, along with some of them being rather enlightening!!

Yahoo News, front page. Mr. Firth, Do all these people not know either?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:38 PM

""I do not wish to stir up any controversy about what observations I've made and have thought that others, such as yourselves, in the entertainment industry would have been more objective and able to see clearly as to what is actual truth as opposed to a mere performance by bad actors.""

As pretty a piece of reverse spin as I have seen in months.

Occams razor!

The simplest explanation is most often the right one.

Nobody, least of all the President, expected so many insurance companies to run away from affordable care, specifically in order to drive a wedge between the President and the voters. Maybe Obama might justifiably be called naive, but a liar?

You are suggesting that he knew that this was going to happen and voluntarily connived at the destruction of what is his most important achievement during eight years of being roadblocked by a vicious opposition that doesn't give a flying fuck about its fellow human beings, Democrat, or Republican.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:54 PM

"Maybe Obama might justifiably be called naive, but a liar?" You tell me!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:08 PM

""Let's keep it positive. Let's be the innovators. Perhaps something may appeal to both sides of the debate that was not considered before, and who knows what may come out of it.""

You simply don't get it, do you?

Eight years ago there were 47 million people in the USA who had no medical care at all, other than emergency room stabilisation, and they were pursued for the cost of that!

THE REPUBLICANS DON'T WANT ANY AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE! To them it is taxation to help losers.

Learn something about the situation, before making a fool of yourself by suggesting that they are open to ANY discussion. The shortcomings of Affordable Care are directly due to the stonewalling tactics led by the TEAparty mob. Don't take my word for it! The Republicans have openly stated their intention that Obama shall have achieved nothing during his Presidency.

They have even driven the country to the very edge of default, in an attempt to turn the clock back eight years and annihilate all that he has managed to do in the short period of having a majority.

Affordable care WILL work, if given a chance. It worked in Massachusetts under the governance of the idiot Romney.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:19 PM

The straight scoop on the source of Nobody's above post:

CLICK

If one is seeking the truth, this is not the place to find it. If, however, you wish to push Right Wing propaganda, then. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:25 PM

Yes I'LL tell YOU!

In eight years of the Bush administration, not one single individual of the 47 million without health care was helped in any way by any action of the majority Republican Federal Government.

During the eight years that followed, Barack Obama tried to institute a single payer, affordable option , which would be in reach of all Americans.

This was blocked, emasculated and debased by the Republicans using their 40 percent minority to stonewall the Democrat 60 percent majority, because the American politicians apparently didn't have sufficient education to know that a majority is 51 percent, not 61.

Does any of that suggest to you that they CARE?

If so, I have this very nice bridge you might like to purchase. It does take rather a lot of painting, but it's very strong!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobdy in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:39 PM

So? Are you now alleging that Obama was telling the truth about Benghazi based on the fact that somebody you disagree with reported the news story?? Would you care to provide your source that said he was telling the truth?

The story is either true or not true. No amount of twisting is going to change that.

You seem to have no issue citing your 'progressive' site for your sources.

Once again you ring in as disingenuous, or are you the one Mr.Don(Wyziwyg)T just referred to as either just naive or a liar?

Incidentally or coincidently how did your review of the Yahoo News site go?

Having a problem getting it up to blame Yahoo News as well??


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:00 PM

I thought that this thread was supposed to be about "Obamacare."

What, exactly, does Benghazi have to do with it?

Or is this just another Right Wing poster's red herring?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:12 PM

Very well then.

This is from a site you referred to:

Politifact

The Truth-O-Meter Says:
Jarrett
"FACT: Nothing in #Obamacare forces people out of their health plans."

Valerie Jarrett on Monday, October 28th, 2013 in a tweet
Valerie Jarrett says 'nothing in Obamacare forces people out of their health plans.'
False
Share this story:

White House senior adviser Valerie Jarrett tweeted that "nothing in Obamacare forces people out of their health plans." We checked to see if that's right.

The White House has been on the defensive recently over its claim, repeated numerous times over the years, that under President Barack Obama's health care law, if you like your health plan, you can keep it.

His claim hasn't worn well amid the letters to hundreds of thousands of Americans with individually purchased insurance plans notifying them that their plans are being canceled. Typically, these policies no longer meet the requirements in Obama's law, such as the need to cover emergency care, maternity care, mental health or prescription drugs.

In August 2012, we gave a Half True to Obama's claim that "if you're one of the more than 250 million Americans who already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance." A more careful phrasing -- former Obama adviser David Axelrod's claim that "the vast majority of people in this country are keeping their (health insurance) plan" -- recently earned a Mostly True rating.

But critics of the law have been on the attack about what they call Obama's broken promise. Defending the law, White House senior adviser Valerie Jarrett sent out this message via Twitter on Oct. 28, 2013:

"FACT: Nothing in #Obamacare forces people out of their health plans. No change is required unless insurance companies change existing plans."

Is it really a "fact" that "nothing in Obamacare forces people out of their health plans"?

The White House appears to think so. Asked about Jarrett's tweet at a White House press briefing the following day, Press Secretary Jay Carney backed up her view that it's the insurers' fault -- not the administration's -- if plans are being canceled.

It's insurers who are choosing to close plans, Carney said, noting that "the administration doesn't step in" to force cancellations. Instead, he said, "the insurer is making a decision to basically cancel the plan and reissue or offer the individual a new plan with different benefits or different costs."

While it's technically true that the insurer makes the final decision, their choices are, to a great degree, limited by the law and the way it's been implemented by the administration.

Much of this process has to do with the arcane process of "grandfathering" plans that existed prior to the law's enactment in March 2010.

Under the law, insurance plans -- either those purchased through an employer or on the individual market -- may be "grandfathered" if they have operated continuously since before the law's enactment and have made no significant changes. This means the insurer can keep the insurance plan essentially as is, without having to implement many (though not all) of the new law's requirements, such as mandatory coverage for emergency and maternity care.

But experts say the regulations defining what constitutes a significant change are pretty tight. As our colleagues at the Washington Post Fact Checker pointed out, one of the regulations says that grandfathered status must end if copayments increase by more than $5.00 plus the cost of medical inflation.

And once a plan is poised to lose its grandfathered status, it's on the road to oblivion. The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, known as HIPAA, says that if an insurer wants to end a policy, it needs to give policy holders 90 days notice as well as information about alternative coverage plans that insurer is offering. That's essentially the message that many individual-market policyholders are receiving in the mail these days, and that is attracting so much attention.

Health policy experts told us that, in a technical sense, insurers are pulling the plug on these old, grandfathered policies. Echoing what Jarrett tweeted, Timothy Jost, a Washington and Lee University law professor, said that "if a grandfathered plan is being terminated, it is the insurer's decision -- nothing in the law requires it."

But other experts said that while this is technically true, it gives a distorted view of what's going on.

The law places grandfathered plans in such a straitjacket -- unable to attract new individual policyholders and unable to adjust terms to market conditions -- that it's only a matter of time before companies are driven to pull the plug. To ignore the government's role in establishing the parameters for this highly regulated, and highly competitive, industry is substantially misleading.

Gail Wilensky, the former head of Medicare and Medicaid under President George H.W. Bush, called Jarrett's message "word games."

"Insurance companies cannot continue to sell individual policies that don't meet the requirements of the essential benefit package, either to individuals or to small businesses, as of Jan. 1," Wilensky said. "But since the insurance companies are not allowed to continue to sell these plans that the person previously had bought and may have liked, they are effectively being forced to change their plan."

Austin Frakt, a health care economist at Boston University who generally supports Obamacare, agreed that "Jarrett's statement misses an important point."

By all accounts, even the employers who are offering grandfathered plans to their employees are dwindling over time. The annual study of health insurance by the Kaiser Family Foundation and the Health Research & Educational Trust found that the percentage of workers enrolled in grandfathered plans has decreased from 56 percent in 2011 to 36 percent in 2013.

Another study, by the International Foundation of Employee Benefit Plans, found that of the one-quarter of organizations that still have a grandfathered plan, less than half expect to keep their grandfathered status beyond the next two years. In other words, the grandfathered plan is slowly but steadily becoming a dinosaur.

Beyond the question of grandfathering, Frakt sees another element of the law that could strongly encourage -- though again perhaps falling short of requiring -- changes in health insurance plans. A 40 percent excise tax on high-benefit plans is set to take effect on Jan. 1, 2018. While that's several years away, the provision "will change plans, either by making them more costly or incentivizing redesigns to get below the premium cap," Frakt said.

The irony here, both Wilensky and Frakt said, is that there are ways to describe what's going on that are both more broadly accurate and more flattering to the policy changes being undertaken.

The administration's "better argument is that we are making sure people have 'real' insurance that will be guaranteed to cover them when they need it," Wilensky said.

Frakt concurred. "The right view of this is that the law does motivate or force change, and that's a virtue," he said.

Our ruling

Jarrett said it was a "fact" that "nothing in Obamacare forces people out of their health plans."

Saying there's "nothing" in the law that forces people out of their health plans is a pretty extreme claim -- one that implies that insurers who pull the plug on non-Obamacare-compliant plans are acting in some sort of government-free vacuum. Even if it's technically true that the insurer pulls the plug on a plan, the insurer will only be doing this because the law itself and its implementing regulations have created a context in which, sooner or later, old-fashioned plans will inevitably pass into oblivion -- as the law always intended. We rate the statement False."

Now what??

I propose suggesting other ideas.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 05:01 PM

A careful reading of that Politifact excerpt will reveal that it is not Obama who is cancelling people's insurance policies, it is particular insurance companies who don't want to provide the required minimum coverage specified in the Affordable Care Act, or that the specific policy fails to meet the requirements of the ACA.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 05:30 PM

Thank you for your 'useful suggestion'.

The companies are being force to drop people, because of the inability to meet unrealistic mandates. You know that as well as anyone else.
More disingenuous twisting.

Your preferred website ruled the statement as false. You have also avoided commenting on the Yahoo News site. It appears that your opinions are not share with very many.

Maybe it's time to offer some new ideas instead of more rehashing old lies or denying what is so widely viewed as being lies, misleading twists or fraud.

Useful suggestions?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:13 PM

". . . unrealistic mandates. . . ?"

Inadequate coverage to begin with. Hence, it doesn't qualify under the Affordable Care Act.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Or is your purpose to attempt to find fault?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:14 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:16 PM

Just for the record: Judging from his past history (Yes, I checked.) It is just about time for Nobody to disappear and GfS to come back on tap. Frankly, I don't blame G for not admitting anything- it's got to be a tad embarrassing even for him to admit to posting praise for himself. And I don't mean that snarkily.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 11:42 PM

Mr. Firth You sounded so smug about having 'Medicare'. You better check again.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:27 PM

So why not come out of the closet Nobody, and admit that you are a Republican sympathiser gloating over the insurers cynically sabotaging Affordable Health Care?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:29 PM

Good Morning.
Being as there seems to be no objection to further suggestions and to avoid a few obstinate fellows on here who insist on personalised assaults and diversions toward the direction of themselves, I'll open with this possibility.

Instead of an intrusive blanket of needless and inefficient coverages for non-applicable services to individuals who don't need those services, such as maternity care for the elderly, or those who oppose certain procedures based on religious beliefs, why not a basic coverage that covers a broad base of common health concerns and leave an option open for the individuals to supplement their health care with private companies based on the individual needs of the individual customer? This would open a door to include such services as dental, physical therapies and preventative medicines. It would also not impact the economy, employers and businesses as hard as forcing them into a system they do not care for or want, and then 'punish' them with questionable fines and punitive consequences?
This would inevitably lower the cost of the infrastructure to administer the health care and those savings be passed to the actual provision of services? I believe this would create more incentive for physicians not to leave their practice.

how about it? Any suggested improvements to that would be welcome.

Comments?
Ideas?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:31 PM

Not "smug," Nobody. Confident.

Interestingly enough, I have an appointment with one of my doctors in a couple of hours.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 12:49 PM

I was typing while your comment came up.
That was a reckless and inaccurate conjecture. I am not a Republican. I am not a Democrat. I am a person who has lived under socialised medicine for quite a few years. I am also not going to entertain such wild presumptions about who or what you think I am. I will say that I am on a short leave from our schedule and have been taking this time in an area that many of our country and trade choose to visit when working on either long projects or tours.

In closing, several of us watched with interest the news coverage of HSS Secretary Sebelius being questioned on Capital Hill. And almost every point that I and others have brought up about misstatements and the debacle was brought up and acknowledged by the Secretary. As I understand it, the hearing is Chaired by a Democrat. Your assertion and assaults by others here toward myself is absolute and utter nonsense. If you don't believe me, then turn on your news!

Now, any suggestions as to how to improve the system?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 01:06 PM

Yes. Go to a straight single-payer system like the more civilized countries have.

But the Republican Party and the Tea Party libertarians won't allow that. So you have to go with whatever plan you can get through a mean-spirited and obstructionist Congress.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM

I come from one of those 'more civilised countries'. We could use some improvements ourselves with our single payer system. America could take the lead on this and cause far reaching influence to the whole of those 'civilised countries'

But your suggestion is an improvement over your previous tones.
We may be making progress!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 07:00 PM

According to the World Health Organization, the health care system in the United States is 38th, behind France, which is listed as No. 1., Norway and Sweden, Italy, Spain, even San Marino, Andora, Malta, and Singapore.

Reporter T. R. Reid comments that Americans pay more for health care than any other country in the world, and they get less for it.

One reason for this is the competitive nature of many hospitals. If one hospital in a city buys a Magnetic Resonance Image scanner, every other hospital seems to feel that, to stay competitive, they need to have one too.   Since they are very expensive and need to be paid for, they tend to use these scanners for anything and everything from possible stroke to a hangnail!!

I have been told that there are more MRI and CAT scanners in the city of Seattle than in the entire country of Canada. There, if the doctor requires a CAT scan, the patient is sent to the nearest hospital or clinic that has one, rather than every hospital spending millions of dollars on one of these machines when there already is one, a few blocks away.

I have been in favor of a single payer health care system all along. It works well in most other countries and many have gone that way for obvious reasons.

But in the U. S., when any politician, including—especially!—the President (not just Obama. ANY President) even hints at something approaching a single payer health plan, the Right Wingers and Conservatives immediately scream "Socialized Medicine!!" and accuse that politician (including the President, whoever that might be) of treason, and of being a Communist or Socialist.

So the brouhaha about President Obama's attempt to improve the system is nothing new.

Various hospitals and health care facilities simply charge what the traffic (the health insurance companies, mainly) will bear. That also goes for durable medical equipment. I use an electric wheelchair when I travel any distance (polio at an early age affected my legs), and recently I had to have new batteries installed. When I receive the bill from the durable medical equipment store from which I ordered the batteries, I was flabbergasted to find that my insurance company had been billed for all they allow for wheelchair batteries. $300.00! Then, the company billed me for an additional $375.00!!

The insurance company is nicked for something close to the actual cost but padded as much as they dare. Then the patient is stuck for a co-pay charge, there, too, as much as they think they can get away with.

This for a pair of batteries that, if purchased from a regular battery supply store, would cost $150.00 for the pair. They are standard marine batteries, the kind one might use for one's 36 foot Chris-Craft motor launch. The only difference was one set is labeled "Marine battery," the other is labeled "Power wheelchair battery." The specifications and dimensions are identical. Rip-off because it is "Medical Equipment."

I have been in favor of a single payer health care system for as long as I can remember, so, Nobody, this does not indicate "progress" as to my position. That's been my position all along (as an intelligent perusing of what I've been saying all this time) should make abundantly clear.

==========

By the way, my doctor (cardiologist this morning) said nothing about cancelling me or my insurance. She checked me over (I have a possible problem with one of my heart valves), and told me that everything looks fine so far, nothing to be concerned about, and to come back in six months when she will do a heart scan (NOT with one of the multi-million dollar scanners, but one that will tell her what she wants to know).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:07 PM

Now THIS is interesting. From the World Socialist Website, today:

US government exempts new health exchanges from anti-fraud standards

In an October 30 letter, Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) Kathleen Sebelius revealed that the Obama administration has determined that programs created by the Affordable Care Act (ACA) are not federal health care plans. This decision, which flies in the face of common sense, exempts the Qualified Health Plans (QHPs) and state-based and federally facilitated Marketplaces from laws banning kickbacks and various forms of semi-legal fraud perpetrated by pharmaceutical companies and other interested parties.

As the New York Times wrote November 4, "The surprise decision, disclosed last week, exempts subsidized health insurance from a law that bans rebates, kickbacks, bribes and certain other financial arrangements in federal health programs, stripping law enforcement of a powerful tool used to fight fraud in other health care programs, like Medicare."

And so on...

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/11/06/exem-n06.html

So, Obama is ENCOURAGING corruption in the new system.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 08:24 AM

""Now, any suggestions as to how to improve the system?""

Yes! Beat the Republicans comprehensively at the next and subsequent Presidential Elections and gain a sufficient majority to do it.

Because I'll guarantee you one thing. You will never see any such improvement under a Republican government. They have never tried to produce any such, and have gone into hysterical screaming fits about ""SOCIALISM"" whenever Democrats have tried.

Why would anybody continue to believe that they are ever going to change for the better?...........change for the worse now, that is almost inevitable!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 08:33 AM

The first step would be for every single one of the millions without healthcare to vote Democrat, and keep voting Democrat until the job is done.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 11:00 AM

I agree with you, Don, because the Grand Old Party is far from grand these days and as undemocratic a political party as I've ever seen.

Now... to the issue of health care in America. After college, I spent 10 years working for minimum wage or slightly above and no health insurance, partly because I was involved with the horse business and my husband had a union job and some coverage for me. And until the Conservative wing of the GOP started its campaign to gut unions, that was common throughout America. It was the unions that either negotiated employer provided health care or else it was through the union itself. That is why union jobs "cost" more... they could ensure that the memebers had a livable wage and health insurance.

Now we have the working poor... minimum wage that was originally to ensure that full time or part time, non-union workers and kids that worked summer vacations could earn wages that were at least more than slave labor. And make no mistake, it was needed because history is full of examples of how the wealthy still begrudged fair treatment of their employees. A mine worker was forced to live in company houseing, accept payment in company script that could only be used at over preiced company stores. If a worker was sick with black lung or injured at work.. they got no pay and their entire family could be evicted. Nice... "Just who are the takers?" I ask.

I sold my soul for a pension & health insurance... took a state job where my pay and benefits were still manipulated by what union I was allowed to join. But it was still way better than what I had before.

But what this country needs is a single payer system... period. And regulations that limit the abuses possible when profit is the sole interest of a company...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 02:03 PM

this whole topic is skewed, thanks to the wronger's need to disparage our President. There is NO such thing as "Obamacare"... and the Affordable Care Act was passed by Congress, not waved into existence by the executive branch.

Secondly, the ACA is designed only to bring the millions of Americans who are under or uninsured - read that to mean "what they have sucks" OR "ain't got no insurance"- into a health system with standards and affordability.   Those who already have employer provided health insurance generally meet the minimum standards or better, because no company wants to be paying out good money for crap. The insurance companies can only pull that BS on individuals who have little or no chocie in the matter... or fall for their gimmicks and don't realize how badly they are being screwed.

What we already have are Social Security and Medicare...
Social Security pays retirement, disability, family and survivors benefits. Medicare, a separate program run by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, helps pay for inpatient hospital care, nursing care, doctor's fees, drugs and other medical services and supplies to people age 65 or older, as well as to people who have been receiving Social Security disability benefits for two years or more. Medicare does not pay for long term care, so people may want to consider options for private insurance. If you pay into Social Security, then the covered earnings qualify you for both programs.


And for those without a pot to pee in, there is Medicaid.

I have health insurance through my job & my husband is over 65, so he is on Medicare... neither one of us has to do anything, so we didn't. We didn't go online to "check things out" and clog up the system for others. Does that mean we don't care... of course not, and to imply otherwise is insulting and just plain ignorant.

In fact, I'd prefer a single payer system because the only choices we have are single or family.... and every married couple that carries "family" coverage but has no children is subsidizing everyone else's kids. You want ten kids, pay for them yourselves thank you very much. And yes, I can keep hubby on my insurance plan... but I would still have to pay the full family fee and that will only cover the 20% that Medicare doesn't. The AARP advantage program is the better deal and our doctors belong to both plans.

And if this is as clear as mud... well, why do you think many of us want the current system changed. Level playing field, one set of rules for everyone...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 05:17 PM

I'm in essentially the same situation, Sciencegeek, and have found it satisfactory. save when medical providers like the durable medical goods store I mentioned above try to screw both the insurance company and me, but that's a whole nother thing.

My wife and I are both on Medicare, and we, too, have the Medicare Advantage policy recommended by the AARP. We checked, and they said essentially, "You're set. You don't have to do a thing."

So Nobody from Nowhere in Particular accuses me of being "smug" and not caring about other people.

Now, if the Affordable Care Act will come down like a ton of bricks on outfits like the durable medical equipment store and other rip-off outfits, that's fine with me. It'll save me the trouble of doing battle with them.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 05:19 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 10:07 AM

up until recently, my vision plan was through the union & not my health insurance. so when the union changed providers after 20 years with another provider, I could no longer use my eye doctor. She decided to retire & sell her practice. The new doctor is connected with both providers, so I have no problem in that regards.

What I found most upsetting, besides losing a good doctor, was that the bill for the eye exam & two pairs of glasses came to over $700. WTF!!!! And did not include the extras that came out of my pocket.

The whole system is wacky... I or my spouse can only get glasses once every two years, but I can get two pairs as long as they are different prescriptions. Since the available frames change every year, I get the two pairs so I have a backup frame if the first frame breaks - which it usually does.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 12:05 PM

Only in the U.S. would people complain that they can no longer purchase worthless "health insurance" [sic] policies that don't cover shit and would be no help to them if they ever had even a moderately serious health problem.

Amazing how rapidly the brain-dead embrace RepubliClown propaganda, misinformation and lies.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 12:55 PM

"Amazing how rapidly the brain-dead embrace Obama's propaganda, misinformation and lies."

He either did or didn't.

From a variety news sources listen to his own words.

You either believed him or you didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 02:06 PM

nobody... for someone who lives in a country with national healthcare you sure seem obsessed with America and its problems...

more to the point, you only seem to be interested in throwing out negative diatribe that does nothing to address the issue of millions of Americans with substandard or non existant health care.

Are you some ex-patriot with a portfolio heavily invested in the very companies that have exploited Americans for decades and want to keep milking that cash cow forever? Because you sure as heck do not come across as someone who really gives a crap about us and hopes we can solve this problem.

Is the ACA perfect... a resounding no! Is this what the president envisioned as the solution.... another resounding no! It's the best - or actually the only- compromise for the time.

Flawed as it is, the AFA is better than what we've had to date and once folks have lived with it for awhile, they should be able to tell if they are or aren't better off and what would make the system work better.

So how you put forward something positive... like what it is that you like about your system and think could work for us. Not this frigging obsession with our President - who is mortal and hardly infallible, but actually cares that ALL Americans have access to affordable healthcare. If some people lose substandard policies - then I say great.. now sign up for something that actually serves your needs and does more than line some CEO's already deep pockets.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 02:12 PM

I didn't hear the speech, Nobody, so whether I believe President Obama or not is not relevant. Within my experience, what he said is true. But when people such as Songwronger and you started claiming that I would HAVE to change my health insurance, just to be sure, I did the sensible thing and called my doctor and my insurance provider. They said, "No problem. You're in good shape." I have yet to hear otherwise from an authoritative source.

I have asked a few friends whether or not they have had to change doctors and / or insurance companies and they have said, "No. No problem as is."

If that makes me—and my friends—"smug," then so be it! I think we can live with that.

Don Firth

P. S. In a movie theater rest room, someone spots a smoldering cigarette butt laying on a tile floor, far from anything combustible. But he, nevertheless, runs out into the theater shouting, "Fire! Fire!"

As I have said before, there are people running around loose out there who are in dire need of a good dope slap!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 07:45 PM

""A mine worker was forced to live in company houseing, accept payment in company script that could only be used at over preiced company stores. If a worker was sick with black lung or injured at work.. they got no pay and their entire family could be evicted.""

There was even a song about a US miner who laid charges in the mine.

Big Jack Goff, I think, was the name. Anyway, one day he got careless and blew himself up, but being a rough, tough American male landed unhurt, only to find on payday that he'd been docked pay for the time he was in the air.

Seems that song epitomises the US attitude to blue collar workers, at work and in health care.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 08:36 PM

Firth didn't hear Obama's speech, but what he said was true. Sigh.

Here's the most pertinent part of his speech. Brief clip


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 10:06 PM

Songwronger, as usual, you are nowhere near as well-informed as you think you are. I did not hear Obama's speech UNTIL Nobody from Nowhere posted a link to YouTube. After listening to that, I STILL have no viable evidence that President Obama lied.

You're talking out of your--ear!

By the way, Songwronger, it's patently obvious that the "Brief Clip" you just posted has been dinked with. That is NOT President Obama's voice (close, but no cigar!) and the words spoken and the movements of his mouth are just a bit off.

Watch it again, more carefully this time!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 10:39 PM

"I didn't hear the speech, Nobody, so whether I believe President Obama or not is not relevant. Within my experience, what he said is true."

Period!

Priceless!
Mr. Ingenuous just said it all!!

The clip that Songwronger posted, Mr. Firth, had the words "If you like Your insurance plan" altered to "If I like.." To illustrate that the individual's choice was replaced with whatever Obama wanted is all that mattered, not 'you'.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 10:56 PM

How has the clip been dinked with, Mr. Firth? There are other youtube clips of Obama making those statements. Please tell me exactly what words DID come out of his mouth over the past 3 1/2 years regarding individual health insurance policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 11:06 PM

The operational phrase is "Within my experience, what he said is true."

You two are a pair of idiots!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 11:16 PM

Mr. Obama did not offer an apology, if you listened to the whole statement is full context. He offered condolences to all those who were hurt by believing him.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 11:44 PM

You need to tell me, Mr. Firth, exactly WHO'S voice was saying, "If you like your health plan, you can keep your health plan" when Obama's lips were moving. In the un-dinked version. When Obama was speaking, and promising me I could keep my health plan if I liked it, was that someone else speaking?

This is the most incredible lie I've ever heard in politics. And Obama's cornered like a rat on the issue. But his fascist allies are helping him out. Today I listened to 10 minutes or so of Sean Hannity on the radio (ultra-conservative, Republican), and he was talking about football. Obama just told the most massive public lie ever recorded, and the "opposition" is talking about sports.

I listened to 10 minutes of NPR too, just for the liberal perspective, and that crap was REALLY nauseating. How do you people listen to NPR? It's such obvious brainwashing.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 12:40 AM

Whoever dubbed in the voice was possibly some actor who could do a fair imitation if Obama's voice. But not good enough. I would like to see it run through a voice recognition test.

Close, but no cigar.

Politics can get pretty dirty. During the Bush vs Kerry campaign, I saw several photos in which Kerry's face was Photoshopped onto someone else's body, making it appear that he had been caught in a compromising situation.

And I've seen several such jobs done with Obama's face on someone else's body for similar purposes.

If one looks closely, one can see when this sort of thing has been done. So seeing--or hearing--is not necessarily believing.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 09:51 AM

For the record... this is SECOND attempt in recent history to provide affordable healthcare to all Americans.

The Clinton administration made the attempt and failed...

the following Republican administration was quite happy with the status quo. And who are now doing their best to sabotage the ACA.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,it doesn't really matter who I am
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 10:07 AM

What the hell are you guys talkin' about ?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 11:03 AM

Oh Mr Firth! Do you actually go to those sites? What was Britney Spears doing in her 'compromising position'? How about Kim Kardashian? Were the bodies done as well as Mr.Kerry's? The rest would have to be up to your imagination. Being as you believe Mr.Obama without hearing what he said, I'm under the impression your imagination is perfectly capable of imagining some naughty and perverted things!

Pervert the truth, why not everything else?

The truth is he lied to the American citizenry. Are you going say that a President won't lie? Do you deny that the first Bush lied when he said 'Read my lips, No new taxes'?

What's the difference??

Only the eyes or ears of the beholder and the stubbornness to hold up that person who personifies their political beliefs and deny the truth of what they said. Can you or do you separate the values they have from the substance of what they say?

A lie is a lie is a lie no matter who says it, and if it was such a great and noble idea, why lie about it?? Why hide the truth from the people that it is supposed to 'help'?

One more thing.. In your estimation, do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 01:05 PM

Nobody, I ignore your blithering in the above post (pure personal attack, which reveals your own weak position and general ignorance).

During Obama's first presidential campaign, there was a guy posting on Mudcat who called himself "ichMael" (either playing with his own name—presumably "Michael", and / or trying to invoke the name of the narrator of Moby Dick -- Ishmael) who made almost daily vicious attacks on Obama, even going so far as to start a web site intitled "The Mudcat Pages," on which he ascribed all kinds of atrocities to Obama, couldn't seem to make up his mind whether Obama had been born in Kenya or Indonesia, was a Muslim, and peppered the web site with photoshopped pictures with Obama's head on top of the body of some guy wearing a leotard and hugging another man, along with other photos of a similar nature.

One of the dead give-aways about the Photoshopping was that some of the angles were not quite right (same problem with the Kerry photos that I saw) and if the relationship between someone's head and his body were really that off, he has a real problem with his neck!!

It was amazing how much time and dedication "ichMael" put into his expressions of pure hatred for Barack Obama. Songwronger's nearly daily posting of attacks on Obama is on a par with that – and betrays a problem, not of the President, but of Songwronger's.

Guest from Sanity was Songwronger's biggest cheerleader, and in his absence, YOU seem to have taken over (unless, of course, you ARE Gfs using a new pseudonym).

So what's YOUR problem?

Do you, too, feel that Barack Obama is not the right color to inhabit the White House?

I am neither the bigot nor the pervert around here!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 01:09 PM

". . . do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?"

Neither. It's a step toward joining the rest of the civilized world.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 03:24 PM

And what web sites might those be, Nobody? I'm not familiar with them, but you obviously are well acquainted with them yourself.

As far as I am concerned, a "Kardasian" is a member of a fictional alien race in the television series, "Star Trek: The Next Generation."

The web sites I was talking about, with all the sloppy Photoshopping in them, were linked to here on Mudcat, by "ichMael."

Not unlike Gust from Insanity, you seem to be trying to judge me by your own moral standards, which is one of the reasons I tend to suspect that you are him with another phony name.

Some of Obama's speeches that have been linked to, presumably showing him lying, were actually made when he was explaining how HE intended the Affordable Care Act to work—before an obstructionist Republican Congress started trying to pull the rug out from under it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 09:01 PM

Same question to you, Songwronger.

"One more thing.. In your estimation, do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?"

Mr. Firth, We already live in a civilised world.

Songwronger, same question.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 09:50 PM

"Mr. Firth, We already live in a civilised world."

Not totally, Nobody.

You could try taking a look at the real world. Or I could make you a list if you wish.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 10:41 AM

We already live in a civilised world.

No so's you'd notice. And who precisely are "we"?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 10:45 AM

I can't help wondering whether "Nobody" has managed to live in the real world without ever having made a statement in good faith, which he believed true, but which was made untrue by others moving the goalposts?

If so, he has been very lucky!

But it would explain his inability to even consider the possibility that it could indeed happen, even to a President, possibly especially to a President, given the "block everything" mindset of his opponents.

I'm quite readily seeing the logical disconnect between ACA costing more (i.e. benefitting rapaceous imsurers) and insurers being unwilling to join.

The answer of course is that ACA will be less expensive, and that the insurance industry will ever accept.

They seem too stupid to work out that 47 million extra clients, even at lower rates, will boost their profits.

Dumfuckistan indeed.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 10:49 AM

....and that the insurance industry will never ....

Sticky keys.
Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:32 AM

Don(Wyziwyg)T has made a reasonable point in his 'moving the goalpost' observation. Mr.Firth has skirted the question and avoided it altogether. Songwronger has yet to answer. Greg F. tried answering the question with another question. No wonder your bickering has a history of going back for years. Therefore the only one that deserves a reply is Don(Wyziwyg)T, however I'm going to wait for an simple answer to mine first. Mr. Firth's comment was in fact moving the goalpost, in case that was hidden from some in plain view.

The reason for asking is that the differences you may have of each other and me is because one's political point of view may have filled yourselves with fear. Fear of one form of government over the other, even though nobody seems to be willing or able to articulate it.

So let's try again:

"One more thing.. In your estimation, do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?"

No 'pontificating', please.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 12:47 PM

Nobody, I have NOT "skirted the question." Nor have I "moved the goalposts." I have given a straight answer. YOUR problem is that you just don't like the answer.

I reiterate:   That's YOUR problem.

"One more thing.. In your estimation, do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?"

The ACA is, per se, NOT a step in either direction. In fact, Fascism and Communism are not that different. Any apparent differences are only superficial.

Learn some political science, and the definitions of political terms, such as Fascism and Communism.

Nobody, you are using the same tactics as Gust from Insanity, which tends to reaffirm my suspicion that you two are not two at all, but one and the same person.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 04:05 PM

"One more thing.. In your estimation, do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?"

Blow me, NoBod. There. Absolutely no pontificating.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 06:41 PM

Obama's a totalitarian. Marxist roots, doing business with fascists. A totalitarian's a totalitarian. At the end of the day, who was worse, Stalin or Hitler?. Totalitarians hate individuals, too. That's what amazes me most about Democrats, that they think they "care" about people while supporting these programs that devastate individuals. Pat Buchanan said today that there will be guillotines on Farragut Square (near the white house) if 76 million Americans actually do lose their insurance to Obamacare. I hope they give Obama a trial before they drop the blade, so we'll OK on the legal front.

And now, in an attempt to clear up Mr. Firth's video confusion, below is a link to Obama promising again and again that "If you like your health insurance, you can keep your health insurance.":

http://www.1800politics.com/one-lie-another-obama-promising-can-keep-existing-healthcare-plan/

The next link is to a similar compilation of clips, but the audio has been doctored. Obama's voice has been replaced by another. Obama said hundreds of times that "If YOU like your health insurance..." but in the snippets at the second link he's saying we can keep our insurance if HE likes it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-nb4dKXA2o&feature=player_embedded

The second clip is comedy, but it also more accurately reflects how Obama's treating us now. He lied to us for 3+ years about the nature of Obamacare, and now we're finding out that we can only keep our insurance if HE approves of it. Fuck him. Bring on the juries and the guillotines.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 08:51 PM

Songwronger:   "Obama's a totalitarian. Marxist roots, doing business with fascists. A totalitarian's a totalitarian. At the end of the day, who was worse, Stalin or Hitler?. Totalitarians hate individuals, too. That's what amazes me most about Democrats, that they think they "care" about people while supporting these programs that devastate individuals. Pat Buchanan said today that there will be guillotines on Farragut Square (near the white house) if 76 million Americans actually do lose their insurance to Obamacare. I hope they give Obama a trial before they drop the blade, so we'll OK on the legal front."

That's right up there with your "Food Riots on November 1st" thread.

Pure, unadulterated bollocks.

I'm not the one who is confused. You are.

==========

I've already answered the matter of "Obama lied about the ACA." If you didn't like the answer, the problem is yours, not mine. Explaining what he wants the plan to do before Congress starts gutting the plan does not mean that President Obama is lying, it means that Congress is a bunch of obstructionist soreheads.

Educate yourself (if you possess the intellectual capacity!!):

CLICKY.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:11 PM

"Nobody" has managed to live in the real world without ever having made a statement in good faith, but which was made untrue by others moving the goalposts?
Do you want to re-think that?
But it would explain his inability to even consider the possibility that it could indeed happen, even to a President, possibly especially to a President, given the "block everything" mindset of his opponents.

As to Mr. Firth, I am not Songwronger. Remember? You accused me of being that person when you were making no progress with your justify other liars, besides yourself. Now you twist it again and now you're saying I'm Gust from Sanity. You said I was praising that person. Where? You just made that up.

The only time I even mentioned that person was to say that there were some things that I didn't agree with, as well as Songwronger.

Do you do this all the time? No wonder you have a history, as you said, that goes back years with people.

You are simply not believable.

As so far as, "The ACA is, per se, NOT a step in either direction. In fact, Fascism and Communism are not that different. Any apparent differences are only superficial.

Learn some political science, and the definitions of political terms, such as Fascism and Communism."

What on earth made you think that I thought they were that far apart? Because I asked that question??? Then you go onto assuming that I didn't know that??

Just another ploy to pontificate, by you?

Obama lied. You lied. I don't believe either one of you. Neither should anyone else!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:19 PM

OK. From Forbes magazine:

Obama Officials In 2010: 93 Million Americans Will Be Unable To Keep Their Health Plans Under Obamacare

Section 1251 of the Affordable Care Act contains what's called a "grandfather" provision that, in theory, allows people to keep their existing plans if they like them. But SUBSEQUENT REGULATIONS FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION interpreted that provision so narrowly as to prevent most plans from gaining this protection.

"The Departments' mid-range estimate is that 66 percent of small employer plans and 45 percent of large employer plans will relinquish their grandfather status by the end of 2013," wrote the administration on page 34,552 of the Register. All in all, more than half of employer-sponsored plans will lose their "grandfather status" and become illegal. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 156 million Americans—more than half the population—was covered by employer-sponsored insurance in 2013....

...President Obama's famous promise that "you could keep your plan" was not some naïve error or accident. He, and his allies, knew that previous Democratic attempts at health reform had failed because Americans were happy with the coverage they had, and opposed efforts to change the existing system.

Now, supporters of the law are offering a different argument. "We didn't really mean it when we said you could keep your plan," they say, "but it doesn't matter, because the coverage you're going to get under Obamacare will be better than the coverage you had before."

But that's not true. Obamacare forces insurers to offer services that most Americans don't need, don't want, and won't use, for a higher price....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/31/obama-officials-in-2010-93-million-americans-will-be-unable-to-keep-their-h

So, Obamacare was signed into law. Section 1251 of the law allowed for keeping health insurance plans. But then Obama went to work narrowing the scope of the clause, while he told the people that nothing had changed. "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. Period." He is a liar. And his lie will lead to untold numbers of dead. He is a murderer. He needs to be held accountable.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:38 PM

You two are both either liars or are hopelessly bewildered. I am not going to try to answer your slanderous charges, but I invite others to read both sides and see for themselves who it is that is full of—prunes.

In the meantime, if you two bozos can actually focus your eyes and have at least a rudimentary grasp of plain English, Google "Difference between Fascism and Communism." There is a wealth of authoritative material there.

READ IT!!!

Over and out!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:45 PM

OK. The one-paragraph version, for Mr. Firth:

Section 1251 of the Affordable Care Act contains what's called a "grandfather" provision that, in theory, allows people to keep their existing plans if they like them. But SUBSEQUENT REGULATIONS FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION interpreted that provision so narrowly as to prevent most plans from gaining this protection.

Obama made changes to Obamacare, then he pretended the old rules were still in effect. That's called a lie. Obama lies, people die.

Why Is This Leukemia Patient Losing His Insurance?

Who Is Edie Littlefield Sundby, The Stage 4 Cancer Patient Losing Her Insurance Coverage Under Obamacare?

Brush off your resume, Mr. Firth. You might need to pick up a job or two if you want to continue your insurance. Maybe WalMart is hiring baggers.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:53 PM

This is just a culling. No big deal, right? The planet has too many people, right? We need an extinction event, and Obama's been kind enough to give us one. Liberals believe in population reduction and the aborting of the young, and here we have the aborting of the old and infirm. This is a GOOD thing, to the liberal mind. Good for Gaia and all that. Be happy in your deaths. Obama has blessed you with a way to serve the planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:52 AM

""One more thing.. In your estimation, do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?""

The genuine socialists (small s) who founded the NHS are probably spinning in their graves and either fuming or laughing hysterically at the though of being compared to either.

And the ACA is a smll, laboured and very much hindered step toward what they achieved.

So NO! TO BOTH! It is a step toward giving a damn about your fellow man for Americans, and will be swiftly and ruthlessly reversed if the Republican Naz....er...nasties win the next election.

A genuine win for the Democrats will see more steps and maybe even complete the journey.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM

I'm grateful to you Nobody.

You have been talking down my comments about attitudes to the less fortunate in the good old US of A, and then you were kind enough to post a link to an NBC page featuring viewers comments. About four post in was the following, from a twelfth century mind in a twenty first century body calling itself Steve:

""The bottom line is everyone needs to be financially responsible for their own costs - yes it is expensive, but i don't want to pay for your care.

I would like to agree with you when you get these people that are taking WELFARE to live up to thier financial responsibility then you can preach tothe rest of the world to do the same thing. Till you get these leaches off my back, enjoy the bumpy ride.
""

Ignorant, stupid, greedy, self centred, totally lacking in empathy or sympathy and in all probability obese from overeating.

The perfect modern American.

The world's number one consumers, using five times more of the world's finite resources than anybody else, and adamantine in refusing to help their less fortunate sick, disabled, poor and uneducated fellow countrymen.

The vast majority, Obama hating anti black Republicans, who have the immortal gall to call themselves Christians.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 12:45 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T, I have not criticised Mr. Obama other than pointing out that he did lie to the American people, in regards to the ACA. That isn't an anti-black comment aimed at the President. It wasn't a 'white lie' either.

Mr Firth, no matter how many times you repeat the same lie it doesn't make it any more true. That said, haven't you noticed that the numbers of this thread are shrinking to just a couple of your very cautious 'fans'? The only ploy you use is to make this a running insult-fest. Your ploy tries to persuade people that they are some sort of ignoramus. I know the difference of Fascism and Communism, or lack of difference, at all.

You are the one who says that we don't live in a civilised society.
Maybe that's true for those who don't live in a civilised society. Maybe YOU don't live in a civilised society or world. Perhaps you should join that part of the world what IS civilised. First step is to stop lying and stop manipulating. After all, that's what people in an uncivilised society do. In a civilised society people apologise when finding themselves at fault. Your lies and misstatements are offensive to us who live civilly.

You claim not to see it.

No wonder!

Just in case you haven't noticed, people in a civilised society can talk to each other civilly when there are differing opinions.

You don't seem to exhibit any ability to do that by sticking to the actual subject .being discussed

In a civilised society they have asylums for those who cannot abide by the ability to stay within the norms of civility.

That said, the only thing that I've suggested was to open a CIVIL discussion about making any constructive ideas as how to improve the ACA without attacking the law as a whole, nor the President, other than his misrepresenting the law by lying.

Both of you should apologise and correct the error.

But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?

Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM

Stupid! Trying to discuss much of anything with you two bozos is a complete waste of time.

As to the state of my insurance, I will take the word of my doctor and the clinic's bookkeeper--AND the AARP--over you any day.

Civilized countries have single payer health care systems. This is what President Obama was--is--trying to achieve, but is being stonewalled by a bunch of Fascists calling themselves "Republicans." Cheered on by simpletons such as you!

Apologize to you? There will be pork in the treetops when that happens.

Over and out!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 09:13 PM

A good piece. Too true, I'm afraid, regarding the issue of impeachment:

Obama's Massive Fraud

...Barack Obama is guilty of fraud — serial fraud — that is orders of magnitude more serious than frauds the Justice Department routinely prosecutes, and that courts punish harshly. The victims will be out billions of dollars, quite apart from other anxiety and disruption that will befall them.

The president will not be prosecuted, of course, but that is immaterial. As discussed here before, the remedy for profound presidential corruption is political, not legal. It is impeachment and removal. "High crimes and misdemeanors" — the Constitution's predicate for impeachment — need not be indictable offenses under the criminal code. "They relate chiefly," Hamilton explained in Federalist No. 65, "to injuries done immediately to the society itself." They involve scandalous breaches of the public trust by officials in whom solemn fiduciary duties are reposed — like a president who looks Americans in the eye and declares, repeatedly, that they can keep their health insurance plans . . . even as he studiously orchestrates the regulatory termination of those plans; even as he shifts blame to the insurance companies for his malfeasance — just as he shifted blame to a hapless video producer for his shocking dereliction of duty during the Benghazi massacre.

It is highly unlikely that Barack Obama will ever be impeached. It is certain that he will never again be trusted. Republicans and sensible Democrats take heed: The nation may not have the stomach to remove a charlatan, but the nation knows he is a charlatan. The American people will not think twice about taking out their frustration and mounting anger on those who collaborate in his schemes.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/363538/obamas-massive-fraud-andrew-c-mccarthy/page/0/1#!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 09:52 PM

Mr Firth, no matter how many times you repeat the same lie it doesn't make it any more true. That said, haven't you noticed that the numbers of this thread are shrinking to just a couple of your very cautious 'fans'? The only ploy you use is to make this a running insult-fest. Your ploy tries to persuade people that they are some sort of ignoramus. I know the difference of Fascism and Communism, or lack of difference, at all.

You are the one who says that we don't live in a civilised society.
Maybe that's true for those who don't live in a civilised society. Maybe YOU don't live in a civilised society or world. Perhaps you should join that part of the world what IS civilised. First step is to stop lying and stop manipulating. After all, that's what people in an uncivilised society do. In a civilised society people apologise when finding themselves at fault. Your lies and misstatements are offensive to us who live civilly.

You claim not to see it.

No wonder!

Just in case you haven't noticed, people in a civilised society can talk to each other civilly when there are differing opinions.

You don't seem to exhibit any ability to do that by sticking to the actual subject .being discussed

In a civilised society they have asylums for those who cannot abide by the ability to stay within the norms of civility.

That said, the only thing that I've suggested was to open a CIVIL discussion about making any constructive ideas as how to improve the ACA without attacking the law as a whole, nor the President, other than his misrepresenting the law by lying.

Both of you should apologise and correct the error.

But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?


Do you? .
comments, too!

Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 11:07 PM

Nobody, you and Songwronger are both terminally ignorant. Trying to discuss anything with either of you is a complete waste of time.

Good bye.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:50 AM

The fraud article mentions Obama's crime being orders of magnitude greater than others that are prosecuted by the Justice Department nowadays. Nixon resigned after he got caught lying about a break-in, and Obama just got caught lying while he cheated a hundred million Americans out of their insurance.

The establishment (Democrat/Republican) won't impeach him because it needs a stable base of evenly distributed partisanship--half Dem, half Rep. So even though Obama could be charged by the House and possibly impeached by the Senate, nothing will be done.

The loss of insurance policies will be under-reported now. A thousand here, 900 there. They'll add up month by month but the government-controlled media will put a happy face on it and tell you not to question. Then Obama will leave office with his tens of millions of uninsured, and we'll get five years easy of blaming him for "that damned website" and Obama's "incompetence."

It's all a scam.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 02:37 AM

Wringer, Obama didn't get "caught" lying. If you can call it a lie, I can't imagine a more public way to do it. Didja think no one would notice? If so, your naivety is astounding.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 10:29 AM

your naivety is astounding.

But nowhere as astounding as the depths of its stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:08 PM

"Wringer, Obama didn't get "caught" lying. If you can call it a lie, I can't imagine a more public way to do it."

You say he 'didn't get caught lying'?? coupled with, I can't imagine a more public way to do it."

Did you mean to say, "I can't imagine a more public way to have gotten caught lying?"

Oh, he got caught alright, but like Mr.Firth, he's too much of a proud, lying coward to admit it. Not only did he lie, he knew about it beforehand, and so did many of his staff. That is not even really up for debate. See my last post to Mr. Firth and click on the link.

To top it off, Mr. Firth, in his 'Swan Song' goes as far as this banal foolishness, "
Nobody, you and Songwronger are both terminally ignorant. Trying to discuss anything with either of you is a complete waste of time.
Good bye"

What he CAN'T do, is show us WHERE I was wrong and couple it with a verifiable source of the truth of it! No, instead he makes another false accusation(slanderous lie), and runs off to hide just as cowards do.

If he had any balls he'd apologise, but he has none, only dopey followers who come out afterwards and make feeble statements that are totally ridiculous.

Here it is again. Read all of it. What don't you understand?

"But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?"


Do they? .


Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:18 PM

I will sign up for this Obamacare thing too if I can get free beer, smokes, and grass. Where do I sign up?

- Shane


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:49 PM

From the above link:
The health care law also sets minimum standards for insurance coverage, requiring that all health plans cover mental health benefits, prescription drug coverage, vaccinations, dental and vision care for children, maternity care for women, and more. The upgrades mean that some plans that were inexpensive for purchasers — but didn't cover the required benefits — would eventually cease to exist.

Americans who purchase such plans on the individual insurance market have been receiving notices that their current plans will no longer be offered after this year, as several news organizations reported in October. Those notices make it clear that Obama was over-simplifying and over-promising when he kept saying, "if you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan."
So the most he is guilty of is "over-simplifying." He should have explained that if your current plan fails to meet the minimum requirements" of the Affordable Care Act, you will have to make changes.

Which any thinking person should do anyway, ACA or not!

And that is from the link that you posted yourself, Nobody, so take your personal insults and stuff them were the sun doesn't shine!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Noboody in Particular
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 10:16 PM

"So the most he is guilty of is "over-simplifying." He should have explained that if your current plan fails to meet the minimum requirements" of the Affordable Care Act, you will have to make changes."

Your President said, "If you like your health. care plan you can keep it. PERIOD."

Your President did not say, "If you like your health care plan you can keep it. ASTERISK!."

"If you like your doctor you can keep him."

Not, "If you like your doctor you can keep him unless we think he is getting his money from what we will call a 'substandard policy'.

You are 'twisting' Mr. Firth. Twisting is a form of exaggerating.
Exaggerating is a polite way of saying 'lying'.

And all this to avoid apologising for your bit in it.

Next they'll be saying that your government will be subsidising the increases, just to 'twist'(lie) their way out of being caught lying.
Look, I have socialised medicine as I told you before. It has its good points and its problems and I called on some of you to make suggestions. I made one, being familiar with it. You have made none. Then you proceed to insult people or try to discredit them when truthfully you have done more to discredit yourself than anybody you see as your detractors.

How many times are you going to say "Good Bye!"?
But you are caught between your false pride and your arrogance.
This is not a 'personal attack', merely the stating of the obviously apparent truth, as told by you!(as if that is possible).

Pontiffs just can't admit a mistake, so it must be the fault of everybody else, right?

But don't take it too hard, at least I replied, after all it's all about you!
(and off the indefensible obvious lying).

"But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?"

Do they? .

Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 10:54 PM

Add this to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 11:45 PM

Some people will never admit to Obama's lie, NiP. They've been brainwashed. Obama's on video endlessly saying "You like it, you keep it," and if that can't penetrate the daze then nothing can. All you can do is pity the fools who fell in love with Obama, to paraphrase Bobby Blue Bland.

I pity the fool
Yes I pity the fool
Oh I pity the fool
I said I pity the fool
That falls in love with you
And expects you to be true
Oh I pity the fool


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 12:00 AM

President Obama mentioned "minimum requirements" repeatedly.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 01:05 AM

Obama lied. You must accept this one simple truism in order to heal your shattered world. Obama is human. That halo over his head is just a big smoke ring from his crack pipe. Begin the healing. Accept the truism--liars lie, and Obama lied, therefore he is a liar.

Or don't accept the truth. Don't take this wrong, but I hope you lose everything you have to your false belief in Obama's honesty. Ebbie, too. I hope both of you end up broken under the weight of medical expenses. Nothing personal, but Obama and his insurance company pals now expect a HEFTY pound of flesh from Americans, and it is only fitting that it come from the people who've enabled this situation to come about. Seriously, nothing personal, but someone is going to have to pay, and I hope it's Obama's supporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 01:45 AM

You're just a real sweet guy, Songwronger.

There's an old French saying:   honi soit qui mal y pense.

"Evil to him who evil thinks."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:30 AM

"I hope both of you end up broken under the weight of medical expenses." Wringer

The joke's on you, my good man. We don't have poor farms any more nor do we go to prison for not paying bills.

If worse came to worst and the Medicare system totally broke down while I was suffering catastrophic illness, guess what? I Would pay only what I could.

naaah naaaah naaah naaaaah

(I agree with Don Firth though: you are a REALLY sweet man.)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:46 AM

I may have been too subtle for you, Wringer. I hope you got my implication: I would pay only what I could. Leaving the rest for you to pick up. OK? :)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM

It is WORKING

Twelve percent of Vermont have already signed up ...(as Vermont goes so goes the nation.


washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/11/11/states-have-hit-3-percent-of-obamacare-sign-up-goals-thats-actually-not-a-disaster/

(Why are you so bitter?)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 08:45 AM

and what the Wronger keeps mum about is the fact that those states which participate in the ACA are up and running just fine, since they don't have such a huge number of folks to accomodate.

SO.. if the other 33 states had signed up, the feds wouldn't have such a huge number of folks trying to get online at once. duh...

and now the Republicans are trying every tactic to keep sabotaging the system... yeah, these folks sure give a d*amn about their fellow Americans...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 12:00 PM

First, i'm pleased to see this thread has taken a more civil tone in the discussion.

Second, I would like to point out that the point of departure is this:
Sometimes it takes the vision through the eyes of a 'foreigner' to assist those to be able to get focus.
Your country, to whom the rest of of the world has looked up to, and turned to in need of help during perilous times was based on this 'experiment' called Democracy. Your country has been a bastion of Democracy as well as an example of what it can achieve to the rest of the world. You have fought massive wars to defend not only your Democracy, but to give other nations the chance for the same freedoms which have made you so strong and a wonderful place to live or visit.

Third, Your country which fought against incredible odds of succeeding, to have this Democratic system in which the citizens would be able to have self governing by means of the voting and electoral process.

Fourth, it then becomes incumbent for both the citizens and their elected representatives to be informed of various issues so that coherent decisions could be made as to how they should decide how to vote, according to how they see fit.

Fifth, The people who you vote for take an oath to uphold your Constitution as to best serve the people and the values on which your country came about.

Sixth, The point of departure comes when your Congress in both Houses are given issues to vote upon, and in violation of their legal and moral obligation to the people they represent, they do NOT read what they are voting on. While this has gone on, your President proceeds to misrepresent the contents of a bill(any bill) to the citizenry and the vote is passed under coercion and ex-emptive favours to garner their vote. This is done along party lines and not inclusive as the country, as a whole.

Seventh, Regardless of the goodwill of the intentions it was passed in violation of the trust that the elected Representatives would uphold their oath and at least READ the bill. This is NOT representative government of the people under rule of law.

Eighth, As a result of this your country is divided. Not so much over the issue that I just laid out, but under partisan lines. To all those who voted for and passed a bill in which they did not read, or even know what was in it, they should at least NOT be re-elected if not removed from office for dereliction of the duties of office, as possibly face charges of
treason(look at def. 1. and 2.) . In that definition you see the word 'treachery' and it is a link. 'Treachery', while not particularly a criminal charge, is also defined as a 'violation of trust'.

Ninth, and finally this bill was passed with nobody knowing what was in it except for those pushing it for THEIR self interests. In doing so they have pitted citizen against citizen, party against party, and the will of the common man be damned.
Imagine a delivery truck pulls into your driveways, drops off a crate and demands payment.
You ask, "What is it?' he doesn't know but demands payment or the shippers will put a lien on your home.
You look at the tag and call the shipper and ask him the same question
He tells you, "Just take it and pay for it. You won't be discomforted in the least and it will not disrupt your present lifestyle, in fact it will make it better."
Then you ask, "Well what is it?"
He replies, "Just take it, I'm not telling you but you will like it, PERIOD!"


Would you believe or trust this? Would you be eager to PAY for it? Pay for it under the threat of a lien on your home??
Chances are, the first thing you would do is call the police and demand action!!!

Now to all those on here who are vacantly repeating the President's 'assurances', you DO NOT know what is in the box(bill). You are just vacantly repeating what you've heard under the assumptions that it is consistent with a political ideal you MAY(?) have. You DON'T KNOW, and it has been withheld from you to know for sure!

Yet with such self assuredness you babble on and demean those who beg to differ.
In some cases, even condescendingly 'Pontificate' down your noses, when you don't even really know.

Do you?

Only what you've heard.

Do you???


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:04 PM

ROTFLMAO....

Nobody... welcome to American politics... did you ACTUALLY believe that Congress reads & understands even a fraction of the bills that come out to a vote?!? Most of them get their marching orders from the Party bosses, and now from splinter groups on how to vote... it is the rare individual who actually pays attention and votes for the common good of the country or else their conscience.

That's how crap gets snuck in at the last minute... SOP. You really need to read up on American political history... we mostly have "professional" politicians in office, not citizens who are fulfilling their civic duty. Term limits and getting rid of the Citizen's United decision would be a good start to returning government back to a more democratic institution.

It's not really funny, but as long as the majority of voters act like mindless sheep, it's what we get.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:27 PM

Nobody, I don't think you've been around long enough to know me very well. Most of the old-timers here will agree, I think, that I am characteristically polite and civil even in discussions with someone with whom I disagree. I generally do not lose my civility until the same person showers me repeatedly with gross personal insults.

Songwronger, for example. Whenever I disagree with him (which is most of the time), he tries to imply that I am too stupid or ignorant to understand the subject he is discussing, even when I am something of an expert on the subject. Rather than addressing my points of disagreement, he resorts to personal abuse.

==========

Regarding your delivery truck analogy:

Most people pretty much know what the Affordable Care Act is about and what it does. There are a few wrinkles to be ironed out, teething problems, if you will, but this is the case with any new and far-reaching bill. They ARE being addressed by President Obama.

There is a great deal of material out there simply telling lies about what the ACA will and will not do—especially what it will not do—by those who are opposed to ANY form of government supported health care. Republicans, "Tea Party" proponents, Libertarians, and anyone else for whom anything government sponsored and not pure "Free Enterprise Capitalism" is "Socialism" or "Communism."

Or "Fascism," about which Benito Mussolini said consists of a system in which the government and the corporations act as the same. He pointed to the "Fasces," from which Fascism gets its name:   a bundle of sticks tied around a battle ax (illustration). "The sticks," said Mussolini, "represent the corporations and the ax represents the power of government. The two act as one entity."

Benito Mussolini, I think you will agree, was something of an expert on the subject.

And MY worry is that following the Right Wing path in this country is taking us down the road to Fascism.

NOT Socialism. And certainly not Communism, although both Fascism and Communism operate essentially as a dictatorship.

The fact that the United States is one of the few countries in the world that does NOT have a single payer health care system for its citizens is the shame of the entire nation.

Any and all attempts to move toward this kind of system in the U. S. has been vociferously—downright savagely—opposed by arch-conservative forces every time the subject has come up.

Who are the opponents? Largely health insurance companies who want to write their own ticket, and some health care providers that would rather let people die if they can't pay their exorbitant charges. There are the real "Death Panels" that Sarah Palin warned about. How, I ask, can European or American trained doctors in Thailand perform the same procedures for a quarter of what they would cost in the U. S.?

AND—people like Songwronger, who obviously hate President Obama for reasons that are open to speculation. In many cases it's because he's a Democrat and, to them, anything a Democrat proposes is to be opposed—and in a high percentage of cases, particularly in certain parts of the country, the opposition is for no reason other than that Barack Obama is a black man.

Mixed race, actually, but in the parts of the country of which I speak, many people consider any mixing of races "against God and Nature." For example, to them, an "octaroon" (someone who is one-eight Black) is a "nigger." And is regarded as sub-human. Until remarkably recently, in these states it was illegal for two people of different races to marry.

Those, Nobody, are the ugly FACTS behind this dispute over health care.

Note:   I have a wide number of friends, relatives, and acquaintances and none of those I have talked to about this matter say that they will have to change their current doctor or health insurance. And I have checked with my doctor and my insurance company and they both assure me that I need to do nothing.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:43 PM

I pulled this from my own health insurance website:

As of January 1, 2013, the Empire Plan Medical/Surgical Program became self-insured by the NYS Department of Civil Service (DCS), with certain claim processing and other administrative services provided by UnitedHealthcare under an administrative services contract arrangement between DCS and UnitedHealthcare. This arrangement eliminates the Plan's exposure to certain taxes/fees charged under the Affordable Care Act in 2014 as well as State premium tax liabilities in 2013. Savings achieved by this funding arrangement are expected to result in a premium "surplus" at the end of 2013.

So thanks to changes made by my insurance carrier to deal with the new standards & requirements of the ACA, there should be a surplus at the end of the year... and hopefully reduced premium costs for 2014.

So here is an example of the ACA achieving its goal of making health insurance more streamlined and less wasteful of our money.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:22 PM

Other than long winded excuses and admonitions, nobody addressed the main issues of my post. So I'll post it again:


First, i'm pleased to see this thread has taken a more civil tone in the discussion.

Second, I would like to point out that the point of departure is this:
Sometimes it takes the vision through the eyes of a 'foreigner' to assist those to be able to get focus.
Your country, to whom the rest of of the world has looked up to, and turned to in need of help during perilous times was based on this 'experiment' called Democracy. Your country has been a bastion of Democracy as well as an example of what it can achieve to the rest of the world. You have fought massive wars to defend not only your Democracy, but to give other nations the chance for the same freedoms which have made you so strong and a wonderful place to live or visit.

Third, Your country which fought against incredible odds of succeeding, to have this Democratic system in which the citizens would be able to have self governing by means of the voting and electoral process.

Fourth, it then becomes incumbent for both the citizens and their elected representatives to be informed of various issues so that coherent decisions could be made as to how they should decide how to vote, according to how they see fit.

Fifth, The people who you vote for take an oath to uphold your Constitution as to best serve the people and the values on which your country came about.

Sixth, The point of departure comes when your Congress in both Houses are given issues to vote upon, and in violation of their legal and moral obligation to the people they represent, they do NOT read what they are voting on. While this has gone on, your President proceeds to misrepresent the contents of a bill(any bill) to the citizenry and the vote is passed under coercion and ex-emptive favours to garner their vote. This is done along party lines and not inclusive as the country, as a whole.

Seventh, Regardless of the goodwill of the intentions it was passed in violation of the trust that the elected Representatives would uphold their oath and at least READ the bill. This is NOT representative government of the people under rule of law.

Eighth, As a result of this your country is divided. Not so much over the issue that I just laid out, but under partisan lines. To all those who voted for and passed a bill in which they did not read, or even know what was in it, they should at least NOT be re-elected if not removed from office for dereliction of the duties of office, as possibly face charges of
treason(look at def. 1. and 2.) . In that definition you see the word 'treachery' and it is a link. 'Treachery', while not particularly a criminal charge, is also defined as a 'violation of trust'.

Ninth, and finally this bill was passed with nobody knowing what was in it except for those pushing it for THEIR self interests. In doing so they have pitted citizen against citizen, party against party, and the will of the common man be damned.
Imagine a delivery truck pulls into your driveways, drops off a crate and demands payment.
You ask, "What is it?' he doesn't know but demands payment or the shippers will put a lien on your home.
You look at the tag and call the shipper and ask him the same question
He tells you, "Just take it and pay for it. You won't be discomforted in the least and it will not disrupt your present lifestyle, in fact it will make it better."
Then you ask, "Well what is it?"
He replies, "Just take it, I'm not telling you but you will like it, PERIOD!"


Would you believe or trust this? Would you be eager to PAY for it? Pay for it under the threat of a lien on your home??
Chances are, the first thing you would do is call the police and demand action!!!

Now to all those on here who are vacantly repeating the President's 'assurances', you DO NOT know what is in the box(bill). You are just vacantly repeating what you've heard under the assumptions that it is consistent with a political ideal you MAY(?) have. You DON'T KNOW, and it has been withheld from you to know for sure!

Yet with such self assuredness you babble on and demean those who beg to differ.
In some cases, even condescendingly 'Pontificate' down your noses, when you don't even really know.

Do you?

Only what you've heard.

Do you???

*************************************************************8

Mr. Firth, you started, "Regarding your delivery truck analogy:"

And never addressed it. I'll be polite and give you a second go at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM

Where your analogy breaks down, Nobody, is that I have a good idea as to what's in the crate. Others have bought it, too, and they tell me that it's a good deal. The analogy also breaks down in that this is NOT the way the ACA has been presented--despite Songwronger and a bunch of Right Wing websites.

Nobody, a little research dissipates the mists.

Satisfied? Or do we milk it some more?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 04:01 PM

what "issues".... you presented some "speaking points" that are based on your assumptions and disregard for political realities that many Americans are already well too aware of.

Were you expecting a pat on the back and choruses of Hallelujah! You've revealed the light to us poor sinners? Get over yourself, we sure have.

Life is messy... and this issue is as messy as it gets already. You have offered nothing of substance with a side order of snide remarks.
We already have Cruz and the rest of those idiots for that. You are a broken record in love with your own "voice". Americans are fellow members of the flawed human race... there's a very good reason why the founding fathers set up a system of checks and balances... if you need to admire anyone, admire them.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,GUEST Qute particular!
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 04:03 PM

The punch line for half assed outsiders is this.

Show one attempt by any Repub administration in the last forty years to provide ANY health care that Joe Public can afford.

Nada! So who's a sheep now?

Qp


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 04:45 PM

The closest to responding to my prior post was sciencegeek. The rest of you are doing fancy avoidance of the subject. Mr. Firth has presented yet another crate. The ACA is NOT being presented as a 'single payer plan'. So that introduction of yet another plan is just more of the same misrepresentation that we are talking about. Are you all incapable of sticking to the subject with any continuity?

Please try.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 05:00 PM

What the hell do you WANT, Nobody!??

I have answered your question and if you can't see it--well, that's your problem, not mine.

I know enough about the contents of your hypothetical crate to have made my decision, as is also the case with a large number of other people. It would appear that it is YOUR knowledge that is deficient.

And I KNOW that it's not a single payer plan, but it is possibly a step in the right direction.

I suggest (since we're indulging in analogies) that you get YOUR ducks in a row before you start shooting at mine!

Don Firth

(Try to be civil, Firth, even if it appears that Nobody is trying to be deliberately provocative.)


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 10:53 PM

Obama wins Pants on Fire liar's award


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 11:07 PM

That's pretty funny, coming from somebody with blisters on his butt!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 11:19 PM

You don't have to be so nasty about it.
I gave you an analogy using the crate scenario. You said, "The fact that the United States is one of the few countries in the world that does NOT have a single payer health care system for its citizens is the shame of the entire nation."
and, "Mixed race, actually, but in the parts of the country of which I speak, many people consider any mixing of races "against God and Nature." For example, to them, an "octaroon" (someone who is one-eight Black) is a "nigger." And is regarded as sub-human. Until remarkably recently, in these states it was illegal for two people of different races to marry."
and talked about Thailand's system. The black bit was totally unnecessary, and the single payer plan is not what is being discussed. To even bring that up, is suggesting that the present ACA is nothing more than a Trojan Horse, which is STILL deception.

My points were aimed at, if it's a Democracy, then just bring up an honest bill that is actually read by the people voting on it. If not, then those people should be removed from office, even prosecuted if need be for fraud and dereliction of duty. If this issue wasn't so polarised along party lines and stood on its own merits perhaps it wouldn't have been so divisive and gained bi-partisan support. But as it is, and how it was handled look what has happened.

Remember that I did not tear apart the bill or even criticise it. My objection was the dishonesty about its presentation and the way it was passed without even being read!
Those are legitimate concerns AND now left it vulnerable to being repealed and Democrats not being re-elected, plus grounds for impeachment of your President! Doesn't that concern you? You go on acting as if there is no momentum rising against your party.

Maybe a frank discussion about those possibilities as a result of 'Obama Care' in light of its poor showing in the numbers today plus the President's disapproval rating plummeting as a result of the very issues I've brought up might be in order. Instead you choose to 'lecture' me(or try) and I'm not your enemy nor opposition!

the only enemy you have is the lies and repercussions resulting from them revolving around this issue.
It might help to not keep repeating them or justifying them.
There is big trouble on the horizon!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 11:55 PM

GOVENOR MOON BEAM of California has been providing for several years.

Administered by the county's an example of 100% free services is found in the "Healthy Way LA" program.

There is no fee.

Services include:Regular and continuous access to health care providers
Comprehensive care via a medical home in a preferred geographic location
Primary care services
Specialty clinic referrals
Comprehensive preventive services
Care Management Services for chronic illnesses
Emergency care
Urgent care services
Access to Drug prescription pharmacies
Health education and information
Mental health Services
Translation services
Access to nurse support telephone services
Access to up-to-date health information

Life does not get much better than this.
Temperatures drop below 39F less than ten days a year in "the basin."
Shelters are abundant with free meals.
"GENERAL RELIEF" pays about $9 a day and can be redeemed at fast food restaurants. There is an abundance of freeway overpasses for shelter; and many sites have a view across the abundant water.

If you don't like the cold of a Wyoming winter....sojourn for a while on the ample and bounty filled breasts of the Golden State


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 12:02 AM

Nobody, your tactics in debate involve not just moving the goal posts. You move the location of the field. Trying to discuss anything with you is hopeless.

That's not an insult. That's a FACT.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM

"My points were aimed at, if it's a Democracy, then just bring up an honest bill that is actually read by the people voting on it. If not, then those people should be removed from office, even prosecuted if need be for fraud and dereliction of duty. If this issue wasn't so polarised along party lines and stood on its own merits perhaps it wouldn't have been so divisive and gained bi-partisan support. But as it is, and how it was handled look what has happened."

Using the above as the goal posts, lets examine the case.

1. The United States is a democratic republic. We elect representatives based on population ( using the most recent census data) and then each state has two senators. There is a definite effort on the part of Republican run states to disenfranchise as many citizens as they can get away with in the hopes that the reduced voting pool will consist of like minded individuals who will keep them in power. Very democratic, wouldn't you say?

2. When the Republican Party elected officals make open comments about how they intend to ensure that the duly elected President fails in his efforts to perform the duties of his office, just how do you expect to gain bi-partisan support for anything. This cCongress is a disgrace... but there are no laws that will penalize them for their actions - or inactions as the case may be.

3. For country that based its formation on the propostion that all men are created equal ( we'll ignore the plight of women for now) it took some pretty ugly political manipulstion for President Lincoln to get Congress to abolish slavery. Watch the movie Lincoln - it's on DVD now, so no excuse not to. There is way more behind the scenes than shown in the film, but it does get the point across. And almost 100 years later it took a decree by the Commander in Chief, President Truman, to finally integrate the armed forces. And we still have way too many people in this country ready to hate anyone with skin color that doesn't match theirs. That is the sad truth we are struggling with.

4. As for elected officials... there is no civil service test needed or minimum qualifications to run for office. It's less about what an individual has done and more about what their parents achieved, so they ride on the tail of another's success. AND they have paid their "dues" to the party machine and have little desire to rock the boat. We are creating a "privilaged class" of people in this so called "classless society" - comprised of wealthy families that send their children off to become lawyers and politicians ready to make the laws that keep them on top.

5. If Nobody is so concerned about America, why is no outrage about what Conservatives and Republican governors are doing to women and the poor in their own states?

Again I ask... what suggestions does Nobody have to improve health care in the USA?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:26 AM

Are you all incapable of sticking to the subject with any continuity?
Are you incapable of answering direct easy questions.

Have the Repugnants ever tried affordable health care? If so, when?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 11:49 AM

In a nation with 50 states, 36 of which are under Republican governors intent on setting every obstacle they can to a smooth role out of the AFA, it is impossible to provide a simple answer... unless "it depends" is acceptable.


This from Dr. Sanjay Gupta on CNN in early Oct.

I met a woman named Yvonne in Greenville, South Carolina, where the CNN Express was reporting on the rollout of Obamacare. Yvonne had a big smile and was very excited -- you couldn't miss her.

I first noticed her standing in line, waiting patiently to ask a few questions about health care. Most of the questions I had been asked up until that time revolved around the logistics of signing up, whether they could pick a particular doctor and how much all this was going to cost.

Yvonne, who didn't give her last name, started by telling me that she had been able to get off Medicaid in the past year. Before that, she had been living in her car, intermittently staying with friends. Now she has a place to live, and she's excited about the prospect of finally being able to get private health care insurance for the first time in her life.

Yvonne, 35, told me she works part-time as a hairstylist assistant. She said she makes $9 an hour, which at 20 hours a week works out to about $9,360 a year. She is still impoverished, but considers herself lucky because she's never had a major illness.

"Human impact of Obamacare"... "My insert here- understanding that the ACA is a compromise within Congress to get at least a piece of the pie."

Obamacare rollout: Day 3

Rocky start to Obamacare

Obamacare: Who's in and who's out? As we spoke about South Carolina's sign-up process, I realized I was explaining some unwelcome news: Yvonne is not eligible for any assistance toward buying health insurance.

Let me try to explain: In a state that has chosen not to expand Medicaid, Yvonne is in the staggering position of now making too much money to qualify for Medicaid, and too little to obtain subsidies through the Affordable Care Act.

This wasn't how it was supposed to go down for Yvonne and others like her all over the country. When you imagine the people likely to benefit the most from the Affordable Care Act, you probably think of someone just like her.

By obtaining a real job with enough income, Yvonne has disqualified herself from her state's Medicaid program. But in order to qualify for subsidies in South Carolina, she needs to get above the poverty line, and she is not quite there. Yvonne and an estimated 7 million others now find themselves in a coverage gap.

The tax subsidies available through the health exchanges were intended to make private insurance coverage affordable for those between the poverty line and four times as much -- people who now shoulder the responsibility, by law, of purchasing their own coverage.

Last year, in its landmark ruling that left most of the ACA in place, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Medicaid expansion is optional for states. South Carolina, and 25 other states, turned it down. As a result, a big swath of the uninsured will stay that way when new coverage options kick in January 1.

I asked Kentucky Senate hopeful Matt Bevin, a Republican, who was against the expansion in his state, about this. Democratic Gov. Steve Beshear has been a proponent of the law, and Kentucky has expanded Medicaid to cover anyone making up to 138% of the poverty line. When I described Yvonne's situation to Bevin, he was sympathetic but immediately replied, "Where is the money going to come from?"

His is a common sentiment among leaders of states that have refused Medicaid dollars from the federal government. For the time being, the money comes from the federal government. In the states that accepted Medicaid expansion, the federal government will pick up 100% of the tab for four years. For the next three years, it will pay for slightly less. Beyond 2020 it will cover 90% of the cost.

The man who oversees the health insurance expansion in Maryland, Dr Joshua Sharfstein, was stunned that so many states turned the money down. According to the analysis in Maryland, the economic benefits of Medicaid expansion would be in the billions.

As I walked with him, I asked if he could give a single reason -- medically or financially -- for a state not to accept the Medicaid dollars. He thought about it for a moment, and said "none."

"This is just politics," he added.

Yvonne doesn't have many options. She can't get subsidies, Medicaid or health insurance. One small solace is that she won't be forced to pay any tax penalty for not having insurance.

"Oh well, I guess that is good," Yvonne replied when I told her.

She had worked so hard to come off Medicaid, but asked me at the end of the day for a list of states where she might move to get back on the Medicaid program once again.

I believe that in the New Testament, the only time Jesus got violent was when he whipped the merchants & money lenders from the temple. Wonder how he would react to the so-called Christian Right in the US Congress.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 12:27 PM

Mr. Firth SAYS, "Trying to discuss anything with you is hopeless."

Ridiculous. You are the one who is interchanging the conversation about ACA and then go on about 'single payer'. Single payer is NOT the subject of this topic. Just look above. Here, I'll save you the trouble: "RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?" What I was and am saying is that the lying about it and misrepresenting what was in it, that was not even read by those who voted on it seems to be the biggest problem. Perhaps if they DID read it it could have been a single payer bill AND improvements might have been incorporated. As it is now, it's looking like and utter failing mess!
Perhaps you should stop your lying as well. That way you wouldn't have to 'twist' it around and say stupid and misleading like, ""Trying to discuss anything with you is hopeless."

"That's not an insult. That's a FACT.""
So if you want to carry on a decent conversation with me or anyone, for that matter, dispense with the misstatements, diversions lies, and wild accusations; and while you're at it, you might apply that to defending politicians who do the same. THEN the conversation will go to an up-tick.

Sciencegeek, you said in your first segment, "There is a definite effort on the part of Republican run states to disenfranchise as many citizens as they can get away with in the hopes that the reduced voting pool will consist of like minded individuals who will keep them in power. Very democratic, wouldn't you say?"

Yes I definitely would and would also add that There is a definite effort on the part of DEMOCRAT run states to disenfranchise as many citizens as they can get away with in the hopes that the reduced voting pool will consist of like minded individuals who will keep them in power. Very democratic, wouldn't you say?"
YES again, but as you pointed out, " Very democratic, wouldn't you say?"   If you don't believe me just look at those who are Democrats on this site, who bash Republicans, and the reverse! You even have Democrats accusing me of being right wing and a Republican. Not because they have anything to base it on, other than I've posed questions that the Democrats have a hard time answering, without resorting to lying accusations and snide remarks coupled with wild diversions. Just review Mr. Firth's dialogue with me! That said, you have been more on topic,, but you should apply the same standards to both sides(as illustrated).

Sciencegeek continues, "This cCongress is a disgrace... but there are no laws that will penalize them for their actions - or inactions as the case may be."
Are you referring to the Congress who was in the majority of both Houses who voted on a bill along partisan lines that they didn't even bother to read? In that case, you are absolutely correct! If the Republicans do that(and they do) don't you scream bloody murder? (as you should). You really do need to apply the same standards to both sides, as I mentioned before.

Sciencegeek, goes on, "And we still have way too many people in this country ready to hate anyone with skin color that doesn't match theirs. That is the sad truth we are struggling with."

What does this have to do with the ACA? Nothing! Playing the racial issue is an old tactical trick that really doesn't work any more. Speaking of which, black unemployment numbers are proportionately WAY up since the Obama Presidency. Is he being racist?

Sciencegeek goes on, "As for elected officials... there is no civil service test needed or minimum qualifications to run for office. It's less about what an individual has done and more about what their parents achieved, so they ride on the tail of another's success. AND they have paid their "dues" to the party machine and have little desire to rock the boat."

Sounds like you are referring to the prior experience and expertise that Obama had before the elite ran him. Again, apply the same standards to both sides of an issue before you start pointing fingers, Remember, when you point a finger, there are three others pointing back to you!

And finally 'Guest', "

Are you all incapable of sticking to the subject with any continuity?
Are you incapable of answering direct easy questions.
Have the Repugnants ever tried affordable health care? If so, when? "

I'm not defending one side or another, but to answer your question, I believe it was under your former President Bush that they made subsidies for cheaper prescription medicine. That said, I don't think the Republicans have done much to even regulate the insurance companies nor health care costs. Now that it has become a huge topic out there because of the Obama Care fiasco. I expect that they will probably make some sort of feeble attempt if not a worse one.

All done?

I think I answered you all fairly and accurately.

As a side note to you all, especially Mr. Firth; you all might want to check into Taiwan's health care system, rated the best in the world, and best with patient's satisfaction. Been there too.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 01:12 PM

nobody... your comments are the truest indicator of your total lack of interest in anything other than twisting the words of others and presenting a limited "argument" that is as offbased as the wronger's initial premise.

bluntly put... talking to the wall is as useful as responding to your BS. But for others who may actually give a damn... what has racial bias have to do with the ACA??? It shouldn't... but here in the USA is does. It influences who gets jail time and who can get a loan or a job or access to a good school or in this case, it influences people who hate the fact that our President had an African father. And therefore hate anything he stands for. The very same people who on the same poll "hate" Obamacare but are in favor of the Affordable Acre Act.

You picked a good name for yourself... "nobody" with nothing positive or useful to contribute.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 01:18 PM

Nobody, you obviously deliberately misread what I wrote. I did NOT say that the ACA was a single payer health plan. I said that what President Obama would like to achieve is a single payer health care plan. But he knows that with there is no way he could get that past a Republican/Tea Party dominated Congress.

Either learn to read or try being HONEST for a change!!

In the meantime, cast your eye over THIS:
AlterNet / By Dean Baker
November 13, 2013

No, Obama Didn't Lie to You About Your Health Care Plans   

President Obama has been getting a lot of grief in the last few weeks over his pledge that with the Affordable Care Act (ACA) in place, people would be able to keep their insurance if they like it. The media have been filled with stories about people across the country who are having their insurance policies terminated, ostensibly because they did not meet the requirements of the ACA. While this has led many to say that Obama was lying, there is much less here than meets the eye.

First, it is important to note that the ACA grand-fathered all the individual policies that were in place at the time the law was enacted. This means that the plans in effect at the time that President Obama was pushing the bill could still be offered even if they did not meet all the standards laid out in the ACA.

The plans being terminated because they don't meet the minimal standards were all plans that insurers introduced after the passage of the ACA. Insurers introduced these plans knowing that they would not meet the standards that would come into effect in 2014. Insurers may not have informed their clients at the time they sold these plans that they would not be available after 2014 because they had designed a plan that did not comply with the ACA.

However if the insurers didn't tell their clients that the new plans would only be available for a short period of time, the blame would seem to rest with the insurance companies, not the ACA. After all, President Obama did not promise people that he would keep insurers from developing new plans that will not comply with the provisions of the ACA.

In addition to the new plans that were created that did not comply with the terms of the ACA, there have been complaints that the grandfathering was too strict. For example, insurers can only raise their premiums or deductibles by a small amount above the rate of medical inflation. As a result, many of the plans in existence at the time of the ACA are losing their grandfathered status.

In this case also it is wrong to view the insurers as passive actors who are being forced to stop offering plans because of the ACA. The price increases charged by insurers are not events outside of the control of insurers. If an insurer offers a plan which has many committed buyers, then presumably it would be able to structure its changes in ways that are consistent with the ACA. If it decides not to do so, this is presumably because the insurer has decided that it is not interested in continuing to offer the plan.

As a practical matter, there are many plans that insurers will opt to drop for market reasons that may or may not have anything to do with the ACA. It's hard to see how this could be viewed as a violation of President Obama's pledge. After all, insurers change and drop plans all the time. Did people who heard Obama's pledge understand it to mean that insurers would no longer have this option once the ACA passed?

If Obama's pledge was understood as ensuring that every plan that was in existence in 2010 would remain in existence, then it would imply a complete federal takeover of the insurance industry. This would require the government to tell insurers that they must continue to offer plans even if they are losing money on them and even if the plans had lost most of their customers. This would at the least be a strange policy. It would be surprising if many people thought this was the meaning of President Obama's pledge.

Finally, there will be many plans that insurers will stop offering in large part because of the changed market conditions created by the ACA. For example, last week the Washington Post highlighted a plan for the "hardest to insure" that was being cancelled by Pathmark Blue Cross of Pennsylvania.

This plan is likely being cancelled because it is unable to compete with the insurance being offered through the exchanges. The exchanges charge everyone the same rate regardless of their pre-existing health conditions. A plan that is especially designed for people who have serious health conditions would almost certainly charge a far higher rate. If these high-priced plans no longer exist because they cannot compete with the exchanges would this mean that President Obama had broken his pledge?

On closer inspection, the claim that President Obama lied in saying that people could keep their insurance looks like another Fox News special. In the only way that the pledge could be interpreted as being meaningful, the pledge is true. The ACA does not eliminate plans that were in existence at the time the bill was approved.

If we want to play Fox News, President Obama also promised people they could keep their doctor. Since 2010 tens of thousands of doctors have retired or even died. Guess the pledge that people could keep their doctor was yet another lie from the Obama administration.
Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 02:32 PM

nice one, Don

I suggest that those of us with a modicum of civility and interest in an improved healthcare system limit our posts to ones that actually provide concrete information and resist the urge to response to others. Yeah, I know... like a poison ivy rash (though crotch rot was my first thought - LOL), the urge to scratch is great. But we do know that scratching will only make things worse.

Like that dumb joke, why do you keep hitting your head on the wall? Because it feels so good when I stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM

found some interesting comments on the CNN website:

He should have gotten the insurance companies to offer identical policies with waivers on ACA constraints to those affected for perpetuity, and if these policies screwed the holders, so be it. Let the market deal with these people.
-------------------------------------
They already have that option.. and MOST folks with insurance and in companies with less than 50 employees should not be NOT. What is not being addressed with all the hype going on is that the insurance companies are using ACA as an excuse to do what they have always done... make as much profit as LEGALLY possible while maximizing shareholder value on the backs on Americans.
I've said this before.. the system IS broken. The intent of ACA was good, the rollout horrendous. The GOP and TOP have made ACA their singular focus since it's inception – 42 failed (symbolic) attempts at repeal + a SCOTUS failure. They have spread as much misinformation about it as possible, blocked and tried to derail it's implementation at every turn, even shutting down the Federal Govt over it.
Why?
Those who believe in some altruistic empirical level that the GOP believes ACA is bad for America and it's economy needs to take a GOOD look at the fiscal and economic state of the USA when that same party handed the reins over to Obama. The only thing they are concerned with is getting back to power. They, nor the insurance companies have your interests at heart. If they did, we would have a bi-partisan working law in place. The right has nothing left to offer America at this point, except candidates rushing to out-conservative themselves. Look at the GOP's approval ratings. Most Americans are moderates and being ultra-conservative doesn't cut it for most of us.

Succeed or fail, at least the ACA was an attempt to provide affordable healthcare for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 03:25 PM

Right, sciencegeek. It's a waste of time to try to argue reality with people who's mind is locked in a single mindset.

Sort of like trying to argue sense to a couple marble statues of Beavis and Butthead.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 03:42 PM

Cross posted.

And right again, sciencegeek!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 04:10 PM

Don & Geek, yer overlooking one essential point. Or pernt, as my Brooklyn grandmother would have said.

Your trying to engage in rational discussions with morons - the various morons here, and the millions of Moron-Americans who have no conception of what the ACA is, or what it does, and hate it anyway. All you need do is listen to the rabid bloviation on Faux "News"[sic] to readily see these ignorant assholes haven't the faintest grasp of fact.

A large proportion of the U.S - since Reagan began cutting education funds & the ensuing additional cuts since - - really HAS become Dumbfuckistan; facts and reality are irrelevant.

See Also Charles Pierce: Idiot America: How Stupidity Became a Virtue in the Land of the Free.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 05:46 PM

All too true, Greg.

Among other "reforms" that Reagan made was that he cut funds for mental health, resulting in the closing of a lot of mental hospitals. This released a bunch of people onto the streets who simply were not able to care for themselves, and many of them seemed to have just disappeared.

My theory is that many of them joined the Republican Party and many of the more extreme cases formed the Tea Party.

And obviously, a few of them are posting here on Mudcat. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 06:16 PM

<.b>
Editorial Attacks America's 'Immaturity' for Anger Over Obamacare's Lies

...In a profound scolding, Cohen diagnoses America's "immaturity" as demonstrated by the backlash against President Barack Obama over to his oft-repeated and false claim that every American who was happy with their health insurance would be able to keep their health insurance.

This was never true. The president and his staff were aware this was not true as early as February, 2010. Some media outlets reported that, for millions of Americans, they would not be able to keep their insurance plans. But, for Cohen, it was a noble lie – one that Americans should accept. He contends that a "schizophrenic" public welcomes the radical reforms contained within the Affordable Care Act but selfishly balks at the prospect of breaking a few eggs to achieve this virtuous end....

http://patriotupdate.com/2013/11/editorial-attacks-americas-immaturity-anger-obamacares-lies/

So Cohen admits Obama lies, then blames US for not being more "mature" about the whole thing. Obama HAS to kill millions (sorry, break a few eggs) to help us in our woeful schizophrenia.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 07:01 PM

Piss off, ShitWringer.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 07:44 PM

Now Mr. Firth is saying I misread him. Another bold face lie! Here is what you said, "Nobody, you obviously deliberately misread what I wrote. I did NOT say that the ACA was a single payer health plan."

What you also said was, "Civilized countries have single payer health care systems. This is what President Obama was--is--trying to achieve, but is being stonewalled by a bunch of Fascists calling themselves "Republicans."

What I said in response to that was,"Mr. Firth has presented yet another crate. The ACA is NOT being presented as a 'single payer plan'. So that introduction of yet another plan is just more of the same misrepresentation that we are talking about. Are you all incapable of sticking to the subject with any continuity?"

Care to lie some more?

The rest of the posts are just more examples of what I already describe before when I said, "Now to all those on here who are vacantly repeating the President's 'assurances', you DO NOT know what is in the box(bill). You are just vacantly repeating what you've heard under the assumptions that it is consistent with a political ideal you MAY(?) have. You DON'T KNOW, and it has been withheld from you to know for sure!
Yet with such self assuredness you babble on and demean those who beg to differ.
In some cases, even condescendingly 'Pontificate' down your noses, when you don't even really know."

You lose


Again!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 07:58 PM

You are the liar here, Nobody. I'm fed up with your vicious attacks and massive hypocracy--criticizing others for not being civil. Look in the mirror!

What Greg said just above applies to you as well. Piss off!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:57 AM

""Are you referring to the Congress who was in the majority of both Houses who voted on a bill along partisan lines that they didn't even bother to read? In that case, you are absolutely correct! If the Republicans do that(and they do) don't you scream bloody murder? (as you should). You really do need to apply the same standards to both sides, as I mentioned before.""

1. The Affordable Care Act (there's no such thing as Obamacare) is a Democrat Bill, so they do know what's in it. Not what they wanted in it, but all they could get when they cannot get a majority against the 40% of Repubs. The stupid reasoning behind US so-called democracy alows a 40% tail to wag the 60% dog.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 08:40 AM

tsk, tsk.... now, Don, remember about scratching....

it may feel good for the moment, but hinders rather than helps. Ignore the idiotic posts and concentrate on providing accurate & helpful information.

When my dad's drinking rendered his grey cells to "mush", he was equally irrational and his arguments - what he called being the devil's advocate- were disjointed rants. His best rejoinder was - don't interrupt me with facts. He no longer could care about reality, only what he wanted to believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 12:44 PM

Anybody who lies, distorts, misinforms, twists, spins, manipulates and then resorts to defaming other's character by name calling, slanderous remarks, and false accusations, ALWAYS LOSES because it is just a matter of time before the truth comes out and when it does the foolish behaviour of the one who employs such tactics is revealed for what it is, and when that is revealed then the employer of such tactics is also revealed as a fool!

That was simple. That was so simple that even a simpleton could understand it. Were you able to get it?

Meanwhile after reviewing this thread I still did not criticise the bill but merely voice disapproval of the lies surrounding it. Lies that you not only approve of but have repeated. This is foolishness. Only a fool would disagree.

Wouldn't you be shocked if the Republicans offering a 'fix' decide to enter a bill for a single payer plan? Though I don't think so much that they would, it would not surprise me.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 01:19 PM

I'm sorry. I posted the last post and left out a comment to 'Guest'. You said, "1. The Affordable Care Act (there's no such thing as Obamacare) is a Democrat Bill, so they do know what's in it. Not what they wanted in it, but all they could get when they cannot get a majority against the 40% of Repubs. The stupid reasoning behind US so-called democracy alows a 40% tail to wag the 60% dog."

You've either distorted the facts or re-wrote a bit of history here. With all due respect, when the bill was passed by both Houses of Congress, there was a Democratic majority in both. The rolls have now changed since the last election, due in part to the public's re-action to 'Obama Care' but your 60/40 analogy just simply was not the case when this was voted on. That being the case, why in the world didn't they vote for a single payer plan ORIGINALLY as Mr. Firth suggests was the goal of the 'plan' all along??
As so far as the Democrats all knew what was in it, No they didn't, rather only what they were told. Are you ignoring Speaker Pelosi's now famous comment right before the vote was passed? "We have to pass the bill so you can find out what is in it."

'Guest', don't get upset, but you stand corrected.

Somebody is conning somebody here, and somebody is being fooled, wouldn't you agree, Mr Firth?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 03:13 PM

[One more attempt, sciencegeek, to get through to—well—Nobody.]

Because, Nobody, the American political system is not anywhere near as simple and "cut-and-dried" as you seem to think it is.

If President Obama had put forth a single-payer plan in the first place, ALL of the Republicans and, unfortunately, a substantial number of Democrats would have voted it down. The epithet, "Socialize Medicine" would have been the war-cry of the plan's opponents—as has been the case any time a similar plan has been put forward (and I can remember several attempts over the past decades)—and this would have sufficiently intimidated many Democrats into voting against it, fearful of what many of their constituents would think of their voting for ANY "Socialist" measure, just to keep themselves "safe" for the next election.

I did NOT say (as Nobody claims it did) that single-payer health care was the "goal" of the ACA. I said that it was a step in the right direction. To get to a single payer plan would require much, much more work than is involved in just the ACA.

Learn to read more carefully and be a lot more precise, Nobody.

Yes, I agree that someone is being fooled here. You are fool yourself into believing you know more about the subtleties and the ins-and-outs of the labyrinth of American politics than you think you do.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 03:23 PM

Well, Don... you get an A for effort...

but since the buzz word for Nobody is "the President lied", I have to ask... where was he when weapons of mass destruction was bandied about and used to justify the debacle in Iraq?? ... and not just in the USA. That's the more egregious lie in my book, and we have a body count in the tens of thousands directly tied to that lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:21 PM

No, this is the greatest lie in the history of American politics. Millions of Americans will be killed off due to lack of medical treatment because of Obama's lies about Obamacare. This is flat-out genocide against the American people, whom he hates. This is the most massive lie ever told by a president (public lie, at least). This is WMD times ten. Watergate times a million.

A recap and an update:

Obamacare passed and Obama signed it.

Obama then spent three months narrowing the definition of the term "grandfather clause" contained in the law. At the end of three months, it was narrowed to the point where over 100 million Americans stood to lose their insurance.

Obama began pushing Obamacare. He stated hundreds of times that "If you like the insurance plan you have, you can keep the plan you have."

Now it's been revealed that you can't keep your plan. In 3 weeks or so over 5 million Americans have had their insurance policies cancelled.

Obama tried to do damage control and lied about his lie. He said he made it clear that everyone's plan would have to meet certain criteria. He never. Liar, liar. He won a Pinnochio award and a Pants of Fire award from different organizations.

Then he apologized. He said he was "sorry" that we don't approve of his lies.

And now, he has issued a veto threat against the Keep Your Plan Act. Congress wants to make sure Americans can keep their insurance plans if they like them (something Obama said was OK, period), so now they're set to vote on a bill that would allow us to keep our plans. AND OBAMA SAYS HE WILL VETO IT!

That's right--Obama is now saying he will veto a law that is designed to make him keep his word.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:24 PM

Obama Issues Veto Threat for "Keep Your Plan" Legislation


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM

My my, how he does go on!

By the way, what ever happened to those food riots that were supposed to have happened on the first of this month?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 06:51 PM

""No, this is the greatest lie in the history of American politics. Millions of Americans will be killed off due to lack of medical treatment because of Obama's lies about Obamacare.""

Absolute crap! Under Bush 47 million citizens had no health care other than ER. Didn't hear a peep from you then.

If just ten thousand more have health care than when Obama was first elected, it'll be ten thousand more than the Repugs have managed, and they still intend to take the country to default in the new year, and return the figure to 47 million again.

Impressive!.........NOT!

T


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 08:09 PM

Millions of Americans will be killed off ...

Fuck off, lunatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 08:10 PM

You don't HAVE to have a health care plan under Obamacare. You can opt out and pay the penalty. Tens of millions of young just won't carry insurance. And millions of elderly will be able to carry only the most basic coverage, with stiff out of pocket costs each year. They will be bankrupted.

Obama just played his 150th round of golf while president. Do you think he gives a damn about your health? Obamacare is about shoveling money to Wall Street and genocide.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Nov 13 - 10:19 PM

Songwronger, my wife and I have very good health care coverage at a quite modest cost. The premiums are nothing we can handle easily, and we are not wealthy.

I have already checked and we will be able to keep it—as is—under the ACA.

What planet are you on, anyway?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM

let's address these points:

1.You don't HAVE to have a health care plan under Obamacare. You can opt out and pay the penalty.

RESPONSE - If you do not choose a plan, and could afford a plan, you are charged a fee through your income taxes. There is an entire page of exemptions to this rule. http://www.healthinsurancegov.com/exemptions

Reasoning behind this clause - When someone without health coverage gets urgent—often expensive—medical care but doesn't pay the bill, everyone else ends up paying the price.

That's why the health care law requires all people WHO CAN AFFORD IT to take responsibility for their own health insurance by getting coverage or paying a fee.

People without health coverage who pay the penalty will also have to pay the entire cost of all their medical care. They won't be protected from the kind of very high medical bills that can sometimes lead to bankruptcy. It protects the rest of us from deadbeats.

2. Tens of millions of young just won't carry insurance.
RESPONSE - Yeah, because until they turn 27 they can be covered under their PARENT"S PLAN. Which they (the parents) will have.

3. And millions of elderly will be able to carry only the most basic coverage, with stiff out of pocket costs each year. They will be bankrupted.

RESPONSE - once they turn 65 they qualify for Medicare and it would not be that hard to lower the age limit to 62.

Also, the lower income elderly qualify for assistance in paying the insurance bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 16 Nov 13 - 10:42 AM

"Obama just played his 150th round of golf while president."

About once a fortnight!

Is a president not allowed a break once a fortnight.

You are coming over as a rabid lunatic!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 20 Nov 13 - 09:52 PM

From the World Socialist Website:

Obamacare exposed: The gutting of health care for workers

The Affordable Care Act (ACA), Barack Obama's signature domestic policy, is being exposed on a daily basis as a counter-reform aimed at a restructuring of the US health care system in the interests of big business. The president's repeated claim that the law will provide access to affordable, quality health care for the American people is a calculated lie.

A true reform of the health care system in the US would provide universal access to high-quality medical care. It would train thousands of new doctors, nurses and other health care professionals. It would dedicate billions of dollars to research into the prevention and eradication of disease. It would improve the quality of life and extend life expectancy in line with the advances in medical technology.

The health care overhaul commonly known as Obamacare will do none of these things. It will do the exact opposite by deepening the class divide when it comes to the provision of health care in America. The ACA will cut costs dramatically for employers and the government while reducing and rationing medical services for millions of ordinary people—while boosting the profits of the health care industry....

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/11/20/pers-n20.html


A google search of "Obama Pathological Liar." Articles from just the last couple of weeks:

SCARY: Serial Liar Obama Does Not Believe He Misled On O-Care ...

Pathological liar: Obama denies his repeated 'you can keep it ...

The Perpetual, Pathological Lying of Barack Obama : Freedom ...

Obama's Tsunami of Lies - Canada Free Press

How Obama went from bulls–t to dishonesty | New York Post ...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 11:10 AM

"A true reform of the health care system in the US would provide universal access to high-quality medical care. It would train thousands of new doctors, nurses and other health care professionals. It would dedicate billions of dollars to research into the prevention and eradication of disease. It would improve the quality of life and extend life expectancy in line with the advances in medical technology."

Find one Repug senator or Congressman who would vote FOR that.

OBAMA WOULD, and most Democrat senators or Congressmen, only they wouldn't get it past the Republican stone wall. So the had to take ROMNEYCARE, and lump it. So you got ROMNEYCARE,.....Live with it!

As for the Pavlich dame, she seems to be earning very nicely out of anti Obama books she wrote, so an extra lie about him is just more bucks in the bank.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 13 - 07:30 PM

Obamacare Then, the Affordable Care Act Now

Great video. About a minute long. Compilation of clips, Obama and lots of other Democrats calling his insurance scam "Obamacare," then the Big Lie, then the effort to re-cast the fiasco as "the Affordable Care Act." Obama was downright tickled to have the thing named after him, but then he had to go and lie.

Look at the whore Pelosi call it Obamacare before she says she's always called it the Affordable Care Act.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 10:32 PM

Politifact awards 'Lie of the Year' to Obama

The fact-checking Web site Politifact has named President Obama's claim that people could keep their health insurance plans if they liked them its "Lie of the Year."

Obama in recent years has repeated some variation of the following phrase: "If you like your health-care plan, you can keep it." The problem was, it wasn't true...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/12/12/politifact-awards-lie-of-the-year-to-obama/


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 01:03 AM

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-12/vermont-s-obamacare-problem.html

Almost 10 percent of the population of Vermont needs to sign up for insurance in the first three weeks of December, just to avoid losing coverage. Fortunately, Vermont is a small state, so that's a small number -- fewer than 60,000 people. The bad news is that Vermont's exchanges haven't been working too well. The governor has belatedly unveiled contingency plans: Individuals can extend their 2013 coverage for three months, and small businesses can sign up directly with a carrier. So hopefully, most people won't actually lose coverage. Nonetheless, for the state of Vermont, 2.5 percent of its population signed up represents a disastrous failure, not a roaring success. That figure means the state hasn't even managed to sign up the people who already had insurance, much less cover anyone new. And if it can't get things working better by March, when those temporary renewals expire, then Green Mountain Care will have resulted in a net loss of insurance coverage for the state.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/03/study-obamacare-spikes-young-peoples-health-insurance-costs/

A healthy 30-year-old would see his health insurance costs rise in all 50 states and the District of Columbia.

Premium increases vary by state. The biggest increase is in Vermont, where young people will face a $332, or 600 percent, increase in insurance costs.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 01:28 AM

Following Politfact "Lie of the Year" award, a reader comments:

"Why would a president, or anyone for that matter, lie about something that is prescribed by law? They would not. Obama was mistaken, or perhaps guilty of not qualifying his remarks, regarding the grandfather clause of Obamacare. A mistake is not a lie and for that Politifact should set their own pants on fire."

Agreed!

Interesting to note that when I cited Snopes to refute Songwronger's claim that Obama plotted to set off several nuclear bombs over the U.S. and convince the American public that the resultant power failure due to the electromagnetic pulse (EMP) knocking out the electrical grid was caused by a change in magnetic fields on the sun, Songwronger attacked the fact-checking cites as all biased and Liberal.

Could it be that Songwronger is talking out of both sides of his mouth?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 01:58 AM

Why not??..You do!....but you got him one better......you can talk out of both sides of your mouth while talking out you ass at the same time.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 01:21 PM

Go play on the freeway, Goofup.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:26 PM

Okay...as soon as 'my Obamacare' kicks in!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 04:34 PM

Good! That should be quite soon, now!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 07:26 PM

I thought you liked the single payer plan.....Obamacare is not a single payer plan...

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 11:15 AM

No response, Don? Ran out of names to call?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:01 PM

No, still have a whole bunch of names for you. You are an IDIOT!

How does that grab you?


I do like the single-payer plan. But President Obama knew darned well that he would run into a Right-Wing stone wall if he tried to get it through. So he tried to put together a compromise plan that he hoped might pass.

But, no!

It seems that anything Obama attempts is going to be opposed by the same obstructionists, who don't give a bloody damn about the American people, they just want to scuttle anything Obama attempts.

In case it hasn't occurred to you, these same Philistines would have done the same thing to Dennis Kucinich.

It helps if you pay attention, Goofup.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 02:36 PM

Firth: "I do like the single-payer plan. But President Obama knew darned well that he would run into a Right-Wing stone wall if he tried to get it through. So he tried to put together a compromise plan that he hoped might pass."

Well now, you know that that is not true. When Obamacare passed, the Democrats has the majority in the House and Senate, and they passed it. Who was going to 'obstruct' it??...All the Democrats that voted for it???

So that bit of 'talking point' rhetoric is rubbish....try again.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 04:52 PM

Firth: "It helps if you pay attention, Goofup."

Back to you!....Nobody could have obstructed it...it was passed by both houses DEMOCRATICALLY held!

(now who is the idiot?)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 13 - 05:19 PM

That's not what happened, you moron!

I SAID, that Obama would have preferred a single-payer plan, but he know he'd never get it through Congress. So he had to come up with something he thought he might get through, but it, too, ran into a wall.

What finally came through is a very screwed-up version of what Obama wanted, but it's better than no plan at all.

You ARE a total butthead!! Over and out!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:23 AM

I think you are the one screwed up here....when Obamacare passed, the Democrats had a clear majority in BOTH houses of Congress. No Republicans could block it, nor no Republicans voted for it, but it still passed because there were not enough Republican votes to block it at all. What are you talking about???
There were however two Democrat holdouts toward the end, that finally voted FOR it...if they got waivers for their states....which, BTW, were reneged on.....but the 'Republican obstruction' talking point was just that...a talking point....it never happened.....or they would have done it.
Go back and check your news source.....unless this is just another one of your attempts to re-write history, to fit the talking point(read: propaganda)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:00 PM

When the MODIFIED, COMPROMISED version was passed by Congress.

IF anyone is cobbling the facts, it's YOU!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:15 PM

...and you think that would have survived a Presidential veto??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 01:37 PM

Yes. It wasn't what he wanted, but it was a step in the right direction and better than nothing.

The battle for single-payer health care is not over, but due to President Obama, progress has been made.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:39 PM

"The battle for single-payer health care is not over, but due to President Obama, progress has been made."

Yeah he got a few of his assigned crony insurance CEO's hopes up, for the time being....
They got a law that the government forces people to buy their 'insurance'..for more money, got the people to pay for shit they don't want, use or need....raised the prices by an average of 42%, increased the deductibles to and average of $6800/year, so the threshold is real high...keeping the insurers from having to pay much, if any for the average 'customer'...increases the co-payments to big pharma...and fines you penalties if you don't pay up!...Shit, and then they got you to thank him for it...and defend it all too boot!!


Ever heard of the 'protection racket'???????????????
It's big in Chicago...........

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:41 PM

Oh, and Pee Ess....they even give you the opportunity to post all your personal info online for their hacker friends....must be a pay-off to than wing of the 'organization.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:38 PM

How come I don't know anyone who is having any trouble with the new system? I also know a few people who will be paying less for health insurance because they found out that their previous insurance company was ripping them off.

Thank you, President Obama.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:40 PM

ObamaCare's Troubles Are Only Beginning

The White House is claiming that the Healthcare.gov website is mostly fixed, that the millions of Americans whose health plans were canceled thanks to government rules may be able to keep them for another year, and that in any event these people will get better plans through ObamaCare exchanges. Whatever the truth of these assertions, those who expect better days ahead for the Affordable Care Act are in for a rude awakening. The shocks—economic and political—will get much worse next year and beyond. Here's why:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304403804579260603531505102

And GfS is right about Obamacare being on Obama and his party. They controlled the whole process, and it's their baby. It was an engineered disaster, too--America's health care system got worse and the insurance companies got more money. Thank you, President Obama.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:41 PM

400


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:45 PM

Well, as I posted jeez, over a year or so ago...this bill was NOT about healthcare...that is the ruse.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 09:45 AM

And here's someone - hard though it may be to believe - who is even more of an absolute asshole and moron than ShitWringer:

North Carolina state Sen. Bob Rucho took to Twitter on Sunday, saying Obamacare or the Affordable Care act has done more damage to the US than the "swords of the Nazis, Soviets & terrorists combined."


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:22 AM

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

IE: The Big Lie (German: Große Lüge) is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." Hitler asserted the technique was used by Jews to unfairly blame Germany's loss in World War I on German Army officer Erich Ludendorff.


His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

Today's "enemy" of the One Percenters is our duly elected President. The 1%ers have the attitude that "What's mine's mine and what's your is negotiable." And they have the money to keep throwing out the big lies for the gullible to swallow.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:25 PM

Good post, sciencegeek!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM

"Good post, sciencegeek!

GfS "

lol Comprehension is not your strong suit, is it!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:48 PM

Speaking for yourself???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 04:02 PM

Maybe I should have added that I've always considered Rush L. to be an overweight version of Goebbels - spewing the same kind of venomous krap - just slightly different targets.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 05:03 PM

Maybe it takes two sides, to foment a heated argument, for the distraction!!...and Boy!, are we distracted!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 06:23 PM

You, maybe. But not everyone.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 10:15 PM

Whenever you decide to change the dialogue, to what is really going on, and stop with the pom-poms for something that even your common sense knows is no good....then maybe you can start to get over YOUR distraction...and take a stroll into 'reality'!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 12:04 AM

Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to slag me.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 04:19 AM

Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to not talk about YOURSELF...and how much you THINK you know!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 08:09 AM

"Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to not talk about YOURSELF...and how much you THINK you know!"

Apart from lousy grammar and a penchant for looking down your nose at the rest of the human race, what have you ever contributed to the discussion?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 09:10 AM

"Whenever you decide to stick to the subject and not turn every thread into a chance for you to not talk about YOURSELF...and how much you THINK you know!"

Apart from lousy grammar and a penchant for looking down your nose at the rest of the human race, what have you ever contributed to the discussion?

welllll... to hark back to the Big Lie propaganda tatics:
never allow the public to cool off;
never admit a fault or wrong;
never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
never leave room for alternatives;
never accept blame;
concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one;
and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

that should sum things up nicely.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 10:13 PM

Dear Don,
Sciencegeek has a post for you.....

...and 'Troubadour' should sign in on her normal name.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 11:03 PM

Obama and Hillary Clinton are both followers of Saul Alinsky. The Big Lie bullet points are a lot like Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, from his book by that name. He preached hatred and divisiveness, came up with the "community organizer" position as a way to divide people, and did other things. Clinton wrote a paper on him while she was at Wellsley (sp?). By their heroes you shall know them.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Dec 13 - 11:40 PM

Well, great! Saul Alinsky sounds fine to me! My kind of guy!

He did NOT preach hatred and divisiveness unless you consider advocating standing up for the little guy "preaching hate and divisiveness."

CLICKY.

Read the whole article. Don't just stop at the ad. Scroll past it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:38 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 05:37 AM

Firth: "Well, great! Saul Alinsky sounds fine to me! My kind of guy!
He did NOT preach hatred and divisiveness unless you consider advocating standing up for the little guy "preaching hate and divisiveness."

Great!....I guess he'll be standing up for Phil Robertson then!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:36 AM

Hurry!..You only have a little time left to 'enroll' in Obamacare!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:19 PM

excerpted from Wikipedia

In Rules for Radicals (his final work, published in 1971 one year before his death), Alinsky addressed the 1960s generation of radicals, outlining his views on organizing for mass power. In the opening paragraph Alinsky writes,

What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. The Prince was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. Rules for Radicals is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away."[10]

Alinsky did not join political parties. When asked during an interview whether he ever considered becoming a Communist party member, he replied:

Not at any time. I've never joined any organization—not even the ones I've organized myself. I prize my own independence too much. And philosophically, I could never accept any rigid dogma or ideology, whether it's Christianity or Marxism. One of the most important things in life is what Judge Learned Hand described as 'that ever-gnawing inner doubt as to whether you're right.' If you don't have that, if you think you've got an inside track to absolute truth, you become doctrinaire, humorless and intellectually constipated. The greatest crimes in history have been perpetrated by such religious and political and racial fanatics, from the persecutions of the Inquisition on down to Communist purges and Nazi genocide.[4]

As a Jew who grew up with anti-semitism as an accepted fact of life, I suspect that he had no problem relating to social underdogs. And his mission was to achieve greater social equality... so is his "big lie" that democracy belongs to everyone and your "truth" is that it only belongs to those you relate to or approve of?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 01:53 PM

". . . so is his 'big lie' that democracy belongs to everyone and your 'truth' is that it only belongs to those you relate to or approve of?"

Exactly, sciencegeek!

You can tell as much about someone's political, ethical, and moral sense by what they're against as well as what they're for!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:10 PM

Firth, responding to sciencegeek: "". . . so is his 'big lie' that democracy belongs to everyone and your 'truth' is that it only belongs to those you relate to or approve of?"
Exactly, sciencegeek!
You can tell as much about someone's political, ethical, and moral sense by what they're against as well as what they're for!"

So re-posting this is QUITE apropos!

"Big Lie propaganda tactics:
Paul Erlich's 'Population Bomb' and Al Gore's money making hysteria, not to mention Obamacare

never allow the public to cool off;
The phony 'war' of 'Liberalism and Conservatism' that the international banksters are promoting for their own benefit, so they can 'find solutions' for their Machiavellian games...That the general public would never go for...and instead the two 'sides' just point fingers at each other...instead of the origin of the make believe.

never admit a fault or wrong;
The product of ill-informed parrots, both sides, repeating the same lie indoctrination..capitalizing on emotional fears, instead of FACTS!

never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
Yeah, I know how it feels...and I'm on YOUR side!!
Now who was it that said, "Love your enemies"?...and you hate him too!!

never leave room for alternatives;
Do you mean psychological warfare is working that well that you've become narrow minded?????..What a neat agenda for stupid people!

never accept blame;
'People often try to ennoble those faults that they are too proud and weak to correct'

concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
That's what happens when your whole premise is wrong, and you can't keep up with trying to live up to your own double standards!
See above!"

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 02:32 PM

I just find it sad that there seems to be such a need to hate in some folks. And I really, really resent it when bullies throw their weight around...

The so called Christian right would crucify Jesus in a heartbeat if he appeared to them today.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 03:37 PM

A careful reading of what Jesus said (red-letter edition of the Bible) make it pretty clear that Jesus was a (fasten your seat-belt, Goofus!) a Liberal.

Contrary to the beliefs held by many of his so-called "followers."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 07:08 PM

SG(I'm shortening your name for me, cuz it's easier to type and faster too! ...sorta like a Gibson SG): "The so called Christian right would crucify Jesus in a heartbeat if he appeared to them today."

So would the 'so-called liberal left'!

Firth: "A careful reading of what Jesus said (red-letter edition of the Bible) make it pretty clear that Jesus was a (fasten your seat-belt, Goofus!) a Liberal."

A MORE careful reading of what Jesus said(red-letter edition of the Bible) makes it pretty clear that Jesus was talking about tapping into something and demonstrated it, (as told by those who chronicled it, and who died for, rather than denying that it was true)..that Jesus was tapping into something ALTOGETHER different, that had nothing to do with insurance company cronies getting government subsidies from exorbitant taxes.......Naw, I think, gathering from what I read, that the same power he was doing his 'Healthcare' with...we could all do.....but we're all controlled by those who sell 'small' thinking....
So, I don't think that that was a very good at spinning what you think Jesus was talking about......but you rarely listen anyway.....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 09:24 PM

Goofball, what the hell are you on about?

(Odious little twit. . . .)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 10:46 PM

Oh No, not again...back to the name calling....OK!..I'm convinced, now that you've explained it so well!

(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!).

SG, even Tesla was into tapping into the unseen, for power and energy. You must have come across him, in your science studies(and I'm sure you have)....imagine if there was/is more to all that.....than any of us even imagine....and it's all there in front of us....gosh, could you imagine what could have been if Tesla shared notes with the Native Americans, originally???

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:04 PM

No, you nitwit. My back is not against the wall. I'm merely flabbergasted at how incredibly dense you can be, going of on a tangent having nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Dec 13 - 11:12 PM

Need I repeat??
Look, you're doing exactly what I said you'd do. Not only do you have nothing to counter a salient point of view.........you are getting quite predictable and therefore, boring!

GfS

P.S...Yes, I think I WILL repeat: "
Oh No, not again...back to the name calling....OK!..I'm convinced, now that you've explained it so well!

(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!).


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:06 AM

WHAT "salient point of view?"

If you are so bloody smart, Goofball, state it one more time in plain, readable English.

And what does Nikola Tesla have to do with the subject at hand?

Speak, O mighty oracle.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 04:34 AM

I strongly suggest you back up a few posts, and refresh yourself, as to what we're talking about...this time. take it in. instead of scanning quickly to see if there is anything in them about you...so you can make one of your snappy name calls.
I didn't think you were THAT cognizantly impaired.....but hell, ya' never know..........

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 08:31 AM

personal attacks are a tactic to divert attention from the real issue at hand... get your opponent involved in a name calling or other pissing match. that is NOT how the scientific method works... you present your argument and the data you have collected - ALL the data, not just a few cherry-picked points that you hope will support your predrawn conclusion. Then others are free to try to replicate your results and see if they do in fact support your premise.

As for Tesla, he was a brilliant man who developed a number of inventions - mainly dealing with electricity and had wide ranging interests. He also had a long standing feud with his former employer - Thomas Edison. Were he alive today, he would be quite chagrined that his opposition to Einstein's Theory of Relativity proved to be incorrect.

However, I fail to see what the relationship is to be found between Tesla - who hated doctors and refused any and all medical treatment, even after a serious auto accident- has to do with the Affordable Care Act and what needs to be done to improve it so that ALL Americans can have access to medical treatment and preventive health care.

It must hark back to the Big Lie propaganda tactics:
never allow the public to cool off;
never admit a fault or wrong;
never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
never leave room for alternatives;
never accept blame;
concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one;
and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

I think "never allow the public time to cool off" is the one we have here... by using insults & slurs. I keep telling Don that this is an itch best left unscratched.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 12:48 PM

Actually, what sometimes considered a slur, is just a practical suggestion....as in my last post, before yours.
Don has a way, about twisting things that were never said and flying off the handle, as if the person he is talking with actually even said it. This has been called to his attention numerous times by different posters.

SG: "However, I fail to see what the relationship is to be found between Tesla - who hated doctors and refused any and all medical treatment, even after a serious auto accident- has to do with the Affordable Care Act and what needs to be done to improve it so that ALL Americans can have access to medical treatment and preventive health care."

I'd be curious to find out why?

The ACA in its present form should be scrapped. Insurance companies, Big Pharma, and the medical INDUSTRY, have become a corrupt monopoly without much oversight...and that includes much help from the FDA. That being said, a single payer does have an appeal...but MUST be free from political/governmental considerations as to who gets medical treatment and who doesn't. That should be left up to the Patient/doctor/family relationship. Frauds should be heavily dealt with....and that included doctors acting as pushers for Big Pharma.
Also, the billing structure is all screwed up...once the doctor prescribes a medicine, there seems to be a 'sliding scale' for the costs. Just because the Govt. is going to pay the tab for a prescription, doesn't mean that they should be gouged...and that is going on. If you pay cash for a doctor's visit, often the cost is as much as a co-pay, even without insurance...making the insurance completely meaningless...other than to inflate the costs. If insurance companies are covering it, the cost of the actual visit and prescript is artificially inflated...just for the paperwork for the middleman, with overhead to included profits for various levels of the insurance companies, including stock holders etc etc. Obamacare's operating costs seem to inflate those numbers even higher, AND the cash deductibles have shot up even further unproportionately.
Earlier on this thread, a poster , 'Nobody in Particular' came up with something that I hadn't thought of before....so I'll re-phrase it, to what I thought 'NiP' meant...Single payer for catastrophic, and another tier for 'elective' coverage, on an individual level. I thought that idea would have merit.
Medicine, and saving lives should NOT be a 'for profit' enterprise.
Obamacare and it's structure is set up more for control and profit than it is for healing. The way that it is set up, it is set up to fail..then going to 'single payer' by default. If more thought was put into it, focusing more on the health and healing aspects, rather than political and profits, it might have been received with considerably more enthusiasm than this present botched blight has been.
When this thing came up before, and because of the controversy surrounding it.....AND...the way it was passed, with nobody reading it, only going by what they were told, (and along party lines), behind closed doors, with negotiated waivers for votes...well, I thought I just read it myself....which I did..with the help of an attorney friend. I was posting on here while I was reading it, and of course, several 'Catters kept asking me about it....First of all, it is a convoluted clusterfuck.....actually, I've never had to put a description on it before...'convoluted clusterfuck' is just about perfect!..It is set up with administrative 'tricks', and loopholes that are nooses...(but only if one can untangle the convolutions to employ them.....and mind you, this was the second draft...the first one, if you remember couldn't get enough votes to pass even in a Democrat held Congress!!..The first one was even worse, for the public...(it even had a provision for micro-chipping the people)...which I think they are still trying to get to, visa vi, the website debacle, and security issues...but that's another story...

Oh well, enough....(but you asked)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:05 PM

First: at no time did I ever indicate that the AFC was perfect... in fact both Don & I have indicated that it is quite flawed - since it is mainly a rehashing of the Republican Romneycare formula.

Second: flawed as it is... it is a first step of many needed to achieve a good, fair and equitable system of providing health care to all Americans. Scrap only the parts that don't work and replace them with practices that do.

Third: recognize and acknowledge some of the good things that have come from the AFC. When I was 18 and a freshman in college I was no longer eligible to be on my parent's policy. Healthcare was what I could get from the campus health center... but being in good health I got by. Now I would be covered until age 26.

And what about my friends who have epilepsy? They now have access to policies that had been denied them for decades.

And preventive care... what is really health care, not the treatment of illness. There is a list of vaccines that are now covered that weren't before. The system is still messed up, but it is better than what we had before. Remember... the profit in healthcare comes from OUR pockets... lets find ways to keep that money in our pockets not theirs.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:06 PM

You're absolutely right, Sciencegeek. Goofus is not interested in actually discussing the subject at hand, he just wants to puff up his sick little ego by attacking others. His posts contain no worthwhile information. Much misinformation, in fact—so trying to respond to them in a reasonable manner is futile. As I said, he not only moves the goal posts, he moves the whole damned field, buries a question or claims he has asked you a question and says that you are dodging the issue. All manner of tactics that would get him disqualified in a formal, judged debate.

So from here on, I shall apply to Goofballupagus the same advice that Dante gives regarding the inhabitants of the lowest level of Hades:   "Glance at them once, then pass on and think no more about them."

So—Goofball. Mount your horse and ride off into the sunset.

NO, Goofball, when is said "mount your horse," I didn't mean "mount" that way! I meant climb into the saddle!

Hmm! That's more like it. But I didn't know that you prefer to ride side-saddle—!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 02:10 PM

Cross posted.

But excellent post just above, Sciencegeek.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 06:56 PM

Well we've moved up to the next part: "(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)..."

jeez, even in order

P.S...Yes, I think I WILL repeat: "
Oh No, not again...back to the name calling....OK!..I'm convinced, now that you've explained it so well!

(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!).

Hey SG, Romney care is just as fucked up, except maybe their website. I've heard feedback from those in Mass...and they're not to swift on it either!
One thing people(especially 'wannabe activists') should keep in mind, was reflected in the Gallup Poll I posted.....72% of the people, including 56% 0f Democrats think the biggest threat to our country is BIG GOVERNMENT...and Obamacare is doing NOTHING to reverse that! People DON'T want to have their minds sucked into another intrusive dealings with the government. It infringes on their natural humanity..just exactly like the 'Holy Roman Empire' from which caused them to flee and settle on another fucking continent, to get away from!...It is exactly the oppression from such a monster that gave birth to people like John Locke, who in his discourses was heavily influenced by a resistance toward it!....So everybody runs away, starts another one, only to go through the whole process AGAIN...and to remedy it, THEY 'PROGRESS' to instituting the very thing they ran away from!!!
Like I posted before, today's liberals are tomorrow's conservatives.
It's all a bunch of hooey! A society that isn't burdened with authority of either a burdensome church or state becomes FREE to innovate, create, and prosper..WITHOUT some corrupt governing force trying to rip them off and exploit their fears....and profit from their corruption...while instituting more oppression, for more profits.
Healthcare 'reform' this is not...just a transfer of the profits and control..while coercing the public under penalty of law, to plunge FURTHER into the problems they already had...and charge more money for it.
Scrap it..start from scratch...keep the 'profits' in the Health care system for research and development, ONLY!....not for another skimming and fleecing of the public for any other government agendas(like looting social security finance pool)...or political paybacks.
The biggest problem for pushing any more government incompetence and trying to sell it to the public, is that the people don't trust these guys..and for good reason.....
....and really, don't you want to be able to trust that your doctor only has YOUR well-being on his mind????....instead of 'political considerations'????

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 07:43 PM

Apart from the generally poor grammar, Goofup's above post could have been written by Ayn Rand.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Elmore
Date: 22 Dec 13 - 09:58 PM

Two Irishmen walk out of a bar. ......... Could happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:46 AM

Firth: "Apart from the generally poor grammar, Goofup's above post could have been written by Ayn Rand."

Yap, yap yap, yap yap yap yap...yap yap yap yap....radda cradda, and blauzoo goof goof..

Sg, I got something for you to look at objectively...like science..I think once you step back, it might be eye opening.....

I have maintained that the corruption in Washington has pushed agendas forward, that while seeming to appeal to one party or the other, has steered the public dialog to conceal their true motives, for recruiting party support, and to get those numbers to grow. The message is given to party bosses to be filtered down to the party member...This is done by BOTH parties, with the utilization of the media...and because of it, neither party stands for what they thought it once stood for.....(bear with me)...It's easy to see that the Republicans, while talking 'noble patriotism' in the dialogues, they have a track record of running up unfunded, MASSIVE debt, example: during the Iraq War. We all know it, both 'Frontline' and PBS did great documentaries covering it....OK..so that's easy to see...because it's the 'other party'
...on the other hand, the Democrats have been accused of expanding government programs, regulations and taxes, which gives government too much control over people's personal lives... (if you don't believe me, ask a Republican/'so-called Conservative')...
....it wasn't that long ago, that it was the Democrat based 'conception' that the government was involved in all sorts of covert, corrupt control games, here and abroad...all one has to do is remember how many times we saw this: "Amerika", from groups, bumper stickers, protest signs, publications, etc etc., usually from the 'far left'.....and what they saw, and how they called it, for some part had its merit...can we agree this far?
We all knew and feared that the country was moving to the 'right'....right into Fascism....

.....(now stay objective)....

..and as I was saying..."I have maintained that the corruption in Washington has pushed agendas forward, that while seeming to appeal to one party or the other, has steered the public dialog to conceal their true motives, for recruiting party support, and to get those numbers to grow. This is done by BOTH parties, with the utilization of the media...and because of it, NEITHER party stands for what they(the people) thought it once stood for....."

So, from the Democratic Party's (liberal)point of view, the last thing they want is a Fascist government...'liberals' don't like the TEA Party, and think that they are moving into that mindset...and can't even see it.....

Assuming that the Democrats, don't like being ANYTHING NEAR that point of view...don't like the Fascist tactics, control, government or anything about them ...etc etc....
...while I've maintained that BOTH parties are being manipulated into becoming something they would have NEVER elected to be..in fact, the very OPPOSITE of what the people THOUGHT they stood for...

Now you are probably thinking, "What does this have to do with me? I'm not an admirer of Fascism, I'm a liberal, and we liberals have nothing to do with Fascism."

BUT.................................

You DID post THIS:

"..The Big Lie (German: Große Lüge) is a propaganda technique. The expression was coined by Adolf Hitler, when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, about the use of a lie so "colossal" that no one would believe that someone "could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously." Hitler asserted the technique was used by Jews to unfairly blame Germany's loss in World War I on German Army officer Erich Ludendorff.
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."

...and I did answer a response you you....

....AND........noting this part: "people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."

You keep posting it over and over....and in your pursuit of diminishing returns...YOU are the one employing Fascistic tactics.

Oh my!....Did something happen to you, that you didn't notice????

...and science is the observing, and collecting the attributes...by the impartial observer.....

As I opened with: "Sg, I got something for you to look at objectively...like science..I think once you step back, it might be eye opening....."

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 10:22 AM

LOL... everyone is a "layman" outside of their area(s) of study... but scientific method is a "universal" tool for investigation of fact. Which should explain why we have so many different fields of study that just happen to end with the term, "ology". Of course, there have been those who slap the term onto some piss poor BS (scientology comes to mind - created by an SF writer who decided that scams pay better than writing) and provide confusion to those who do not appreciate the concept of "peer review". While those peers may differ in opinions about a premise, they all agree about what constitutes scientific method.

As for my use of the Big Lie list... I will use it whenever it seems appropriate, just I would shout out "the emperor has no clothes", should the occasion arise.

The reason for this thread was to discredit the American President and the first enacted effort to provide reasonalbe healthcare options to everyone in our country. The Law is flawed and needs much work to remove the partisan componants that preserve the healthcare industry to "milk" the public of every dime it can...

To take a quote from my youth... "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.".


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 12:44 PM

You don't even know who Ayn Rand was and what she advocated, do you, Goofball?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:17 PM

Ann Rand... born in Czarist Russia of Jewish parents and lived there until she arrived in New York in early 1926. She was a playright, screenwriter & novelist... with no training in economics or politcal theory. Given her background, it is no wonder she was quite anti-communist.

Per her Wiki account: Although Rand maintained that Objectivism was an integrated philosophical system, philosopher Robert H. Bass has argued that her central ethical ideas are inconsistent and contradictory to her central political ideas.

hmmmm... seems to have more in common with L Ron Hubbard than I knew.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:36 PM

SG: "The reason for this thread was to discredit the American President and the first enacted effort to provide reasonalbe healthcare options to everyone in our country. The Law is flawed and needs much work to remove the partisan componants that preserve the healthcare industry to "milk" the public of every dime it can..."

I didn't start the thread, so I can't say for certainty WHY it was started...and neither can you.
What discredited the President was the President himself, when he repeatedly lied about it...'REPEATEDLY'..as in, "...people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it."...and now YOU are trying to turn that around, BY THE SAME TACTIC!..I don't think the reason people are NOT signing up is because they read the Mudcat forum, and decided to believe one thread that 'discredits the President'.
...and as far are you and Don acquiescing by saying 'we know it had SOME problems'...well, DUHHHH!!! Less coverage, higher premiums, higher deductibles, people losing their doctors, being forced off policies they liked, hospitals not taking it, doctors leaving their practice, massive deceit, unsecured websites..jeez, what there not to like???..and it's ALL because of this thread...right???

Is that a scientific conclusion??

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 01:52 PM

Big Lie propaganda tactics:

never allow the public to cool off;
never admit a fault or wrong;
never concede that there may be some good in your enemy;
never leave room for alternatives;
never accept blame;
concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong;
people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one;
and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

LOL... add distort what has been put forward by others and then condemn the distorted statement.

No... I did not imply that posting to mudcat would have national implications... just that Songwronger's thread was more of the same. I have asked in the past if the wronger ever posted a musically based thread... the answer was maybe once to try & sell an instrument. Why the urge to post on mudcat? beats me... maybe there are post ons other sites as well that I don't frequent. All of which is irrelevent to the point.

What is relevent is that when I see or smell the spray from a cat that is pissing on the furniture, I have a pretty good idea that it is marking its territory because it feels threatened and needs to stake it's claim. What was the particular trigger... may or may not know... but it doesn't take a Nobel laureate to have a pretty good, general idea. That's what naturalists do all the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:35 PM

SG: "LOL... add distort what has been put forward by others and then condemn the distorted statement."

Hey Don, did you get that?????

SG: "Why the urge to post on mudcat? beats me... "

Well, for me, as I've said before, I use the angst expressed, and use it musically....it is because I'm NOT a political animal that I don't have a 'party biased viewpoint'...also, as previously posted (by moi), "I'm not with the 'party'..I'm with the band!"
Something to be said about a 'party biased viewpoint'....people tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater, because if the 'other party' said it, it must be wrong...and it only gives either side a rather myopic vision or the whole issue...Frankly, I don't trust either party as far as I can throw them....after all, they ARE corrupted by the same people, with their own agenda. Some people are stupid enough to believe them, and the other party are stupid enough NOT to believe anything outside their party's talking point propaganda...and what's REALLY phenomenal, is that party people believe their party's elected 'representatives'(?) are representing the people more than the lobbyist's corrupt agendas. Both parties!!..and the 'news'(?) has become sorta like a 'reality show'...with more interesting script writers. To some, fiction is more entertaining than truth!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 02:55 PM

Well said Sanity.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegee
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:01 PM

"SG: "Why the urge to post on mudcat? beats me... "

Well, for me, as I've said before, I use the angst expressed, and use it musically...."

As the mind boggles.... so this is some new form of rap?

It certainly is not lyrical or alliterative, much less coherent. You might want to investigate a new medium for your message... this one isn't cutting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:17 PM

At one time, before I grew a brain, I read all of Ayn Rand's works avidly. What first attracted me to her writings was when I attempted to enroll in the University of Washington's School of Music and frankly said that my musical interests were folk music, and playing classical guitar. I was told that folk music was not a worthwhile study and the classical guitar is not a musical instrument (despite the fact that Burl Ives had sung on campus a few years before and John Williams had played a concert on campus a few months before).

I was finally accepted (through the intervention of a particular music professor), but all the while I was there, I had to defend my interests as being a worthwhile pursuit. I saw my position in the department as similar to that of Ayn Rand's hero, Howard Roark, in her novel, The Fountainhead, in his early struggles with the architecture school.

So I read a great deal of her writings, fiction and nonfiction.

Then—I started examining her writings, and her so-called "philosophy" with a somewhat more critical eye.

Her later writings get downright appalling!!   "Galt's speech" in Atlas Shrugged and most of her non-fiction.

One can get the general thrust of Ayn Rand's "philosopy" (Objectivism) and her ethical stance, which affects her economics and general political view, by looking at the titles of two of her non-fiction books: The Virtue of Selfishness in which, among other things, she maintains that anyone on welfare, or receiving other aid from the government is a "freeloader" and "parasite," and resents the fact that some of her taxes are being spent to aid people who cannot, through no fault of their own, fend for themselves; and Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal, in which she maintains that Capitalism has never been tried, because the government has "burdened" it with regulations and restrictions.

She also hated the environmental movement, saying that "environmentalists should get down on their knees and give thanks to the smokiest smokestack they can find for all the benefits that industrial genius has given to them!"

She considered FDR, whose initiation of regulatory agencies to rein in the excesses of Wall Street that brought about the Great Depression (25% unemployment) in the Thirties and starting the New Deal programs that put people back to work—thus ending the Depression—as the Devil incarnate, And she loved Ronald Reagan, one of her followers, who did everything he could to destroy such things as the Securities and Exchange Commission and other regulatory agencies (much of Reagan's "reforms" are responsible for the present shakiness of our economy).

She would have considered the Affordable Care Act—or ANY government sponsorship of a health care program—as an abomination.

She was also a rabid atheist, although most Conservatives who embrace her writings conveniently ignore this. The Tea Party folks think that she's the bee's knees!

She maintained that the highest virtue was "rational self-interest." She died in 1982 of lung cancer, after being a chain smoker all of her life.

"Rational self-interest?"

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 03:35 PM

I believe the term really should be "enlightened self-interest" whereby one recognizes that by improving the lot of others, they will benefit as well.



She did seem to embrace the dark side... rationalizing self-interest is closer to the truth... one step away from divine right... for the haves not the have nots.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,gillymor
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 04:53 PM

Science Geek asks goofus about his posting style and content:

"As the mind boggles.... so this is some new form of rap?"

Yes, it's called C Rap and is more commonly known as crap.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 06:35 PM

"Enlightened self-interest" would be the way to go, but "rational" was a word Ayn Rand insisted on using. Rational as opposed to emotional. Emotions, such as empathy or sympathy, could lead one to being tempted to try to help someone who has had a run of bad luck with one's own resources. Or worse! Have the government tax your excess wealth and use it to help "parasites and freeloaders" (such as the sick and elderly).

Can't have that sort of thing!! Not in her ideal world.

Yet, she was quite emotional herself. Perpetual smoldering anger seemed to be her default emotion.

=========

American democracy is far from perfect. But it can be fixed.

Goofball is one of those who bellows "a pox on both your houses!" in reference to the two dominant political parties, but he doesn't suggest any solutions beyond "Throw the bums out!!" And like Ayn Rand, he seems to object to any attempt to assist people who might be in need of assistance, such with a good health care program.

Civilized countries—and even some relatively primitive countries—have better health care and ways of paying for it than we do.

Reagan's "Shining City on the Hill?" I don't think so.

Any idiot can see what's wrong with the system and sit around pissing and moaning about it. But it takes a little thought and effort to come up with a way of fixing it.

Too much work?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 11:47 PM

Firth: "And like Ayn Rand, he seems to object to any attempt to assist people who might be in need of assistance, such with a good health care program.
Civilized countries—and even some relatively primitive countries—have better health care and ways of paying for it than we do."

Hey, fuck Ayn Rand...she grew up in a fucked up Soviet empire, and bitched about it in some books. The 'wonderful Soviet utopia' crumbled, and Ayn Rand is dead...get over it!

As far as Obamacare being the 'saving light' for the 'poor and needy'..that's a crock of 'so-called' phony liberal propaganda bullshit!..and you know why?
Because AT ANY TIME, a person making under a certain amount, ( the amounts vary depending on the state they live in) could walk into a Social Services office and get Medicaid, FOR 'FREE'! They could walk into an emergency room, get help and Medicaid would cover it, if they could not pay it....SO, with that in mind, name ONE great thing about Obamacare......and this time tell the truth for a change!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 23 Dec 13 - 11:58 PM

LOL... the tune never changes, does it...

OK one good thing about the Affordable Health Care Act... young people under 27 can stay on their parent's health insurance, so they DO NOT have to go on Medicaid to get healthcare. You asked, I answered.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 12:28 AM

It's 'under their parents'....and if they are living at their parents, they probably wouldn't qualify for Medicaid anyway.

Next we'll hear about 'pre-existing conditions'..another VERY misleading 'promise'. You might not get 'denied' but you might not get treatment, either. The reason is many pre-existing conditions require specialized treatment, and MOST of those doctors and hospitals are NOT taking Obamacare...OH, and did you know that because Obamacare is so concerned with the 'poor and needy' that massive fines and taxes are being levied on private charitable hospitals, (and get this), that cater to the 'poor and needy'!

I just thought I'd spare you some time posting propaganda blather....

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 12:32 AM

"Ayn Rand is dead. Get over it!"

No problem here, Goofball. But your Tea Potty buddies—and Paul Ryan, who wants to make a run for the presidency—think she's the great Oracle for the Salvation of Mankind (non-religious sub-chapter).

And your ceaseless attempts to trash the government, and particularly President Obama in his efforts to reform the health care system, sound like something right out of the Ayn Rand Disciple's playbook.

If you think the government needs changing then quit whining here and get your butt out into the real world and DO something!

That's what we "loony Liberals" do.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:07 AM

"It's 'under their parents'....and if they are living at their parents, they probably wouldn't qualify for Medicaid anyway."

LOL... exactly! they would HAVE NO INSURANCE AND NO MEDICAID under the old system. Which is what happened to me as a college student with almost no income and student debt.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 10:10 AM

SG: "LOL... exactly! they would HAVE NO INSURANCE AND NO MEDICAID under the old system. Which is what happened to me as a college student with almost no income and student debt."

Yeah, but they had insane asylums back then!...and with no Medicaid, you were in deep shit!

Firth: "If you think the government needs changing then quit whining here and get your butt out into the real world and DO something!
That's what we "loony Liberals" do."

Yeah?..and after you fuck things up beyond repair...there will still be music.....that's what us sane people do!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 10:32 AM

Yeah, but they had insane asylums back then!...and with no Medicaid, you were in deep shit!

Yeah?..and after you fuck things up beyond repair...there will still be music.....that's what us sane people do!


well... there it is folks... as fine an example of irrational blithering as any I've seen in quite some time. And consistent with the polling numbers that show the same folks who hate Obamacare are OK with the Affordable Healthcare Act. Give them enough rope and they will macrame themselves quite a nice noose.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 10:55 AM

Well, OK for the 'snipes'...What I suspect will happen is that Obama will forgive student loans, in trade for them signing up.

You act as if Obamacare is 'God's gift' to the peasants. It's a sham. If they really wanted 'healthcare' they could do it without all this deceptive intrusive nonsense. Say, what if they funded hospitals as they do public schools?...(not that public schools are anything close to a stellar example of efficiency)....You go in, show your ID and get care. I'm NOT against public funded healthcare....but forcing people to buy an inferior product from your cronies, is NOT the path....but it is to needing a reason to 'chip' every one...especially with their fucked up website(which everyone thinks was a just a 'bumbling mistake').
Too bad that the President's credibility is in the toilet....and guess what?..I had NOTHING to do with that!..(Maybe his puppet-masters thought he was expendable for that...as long as they got their way..).

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 01:13 PM

Goofball, are you really that clueless!???

The best thing to do would be to enact a single-payer health care plan—like civilized countries have—but if President Obama had put such a plan forward, the insurance companies (with all their lobbying money), the Republican Party, who would by running around frantically, shrieking "Socialism! Socialism!", Congress the way it's constituted right now, and imbeciles like you, who don't know cow pies from shoe polish, would be carping at him exactly like you are doing now!

The ACA is an improvement over the way things were, still not as far as we need to go, but the best that President Obama thought he might be able to get through. But the Philistines are shrieking and spitting anyway!

Ask Santa to bring you a brain for Christmas!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 03:24 PM

but Don, what would he ever do with it? It would definitely get in the way of his rants. Better that Santa gets him a paint ball set... take out his anger that way.

BTW... has either the wronger or GS ever indicated just how they have been harmed by the AFC? as in they have to shell out higher premiums or lost their coverage. or do they think that they are champions for their version of justice?   

Well, it really doesn't matter. The law is here and we need to make it better and fairer.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 04:00 PM

OK..I'm The Goofball?????...I got a great idea, for you to do...(Just to see how 'Goofy' I'm am.....start taking a poll of all those who didn't show up, and register, or 'enroll', and ask them why they didn't...and DIDN'T in deafening droves!..Maybe in a 'Democracy', (as in Democrat Party), there are more ways of voting, than at the ballot box...who trusts them anyway??

.....oh, and keep your dumb posts to yourself(and your mirror) until you've got enough reasons, matching the ones, I put down....and then tell us who the goofy one is!

Sincerely, The Other End of Reality,

GfS

P.S. SG, Doesn't science show the direction to look, by observing the behavior of the subject?....sometimes your observations lead the observer to form a theory. Now, are you smart enough to formulate?.....or need you get your pad and paper, and fasten up you high heel sneakers?


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 06:16 PM

P.S. SG, Doesn't science show the direction to look, by observing the behavior of the subject?....sometimes your observations lead the observer to form a theory. Now, are you smart enough to formulate?.....or need you get your pad and paper, and fasten up you high heel sneakers?

ROTFLMAO.... I HAVE been observing the behavior of the subject... and if I subscribed to Freudian theory would draw some unflattering conclusions regarding your childhood, etc. However, I do suspect a very angry and unhappy person who never socialized well and resorts to extreme behavior as a way of drawing attention... much like child misbehaves to try and control adults.

You have no understanding of science and even less of me... so your attempts to insult or anger me only come across as pathetic. You are an itch that is quite easy to ignore.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 07:23 PM

You obviously can find your pen....and perhaps you left your high heel sneakers under Don's bed....because you haven't done your survey yet.


BTW,...Freud's conclusions were not as accurate, as the thought of looking inward.

I'd rather subscribe to Dr. Leakey's comment to eager reporter's seeking his speculation about the 'activities' of the people whose skull he found....it went like this....

"In 1969 the discovery of a cranium of Paranthropus boisei caused great excitement. A Homo habilis skull (KNM ER 1470) and a Homo erectus skull (KNM ER 3733), discovered in 1972 and 1975, respectively, were among the most significant finds of Leakey's earlier expeditions. In 1978 an intact cranium of Homo erectus (KNM ER 3883) was discovered.

When he arrived in Britain, the press was excited, and asked him to comment on his find, and tried to get him to speculate, as to what the humans were like. "Were they tool makers??" they asked. "Did they make pottery?" "Were they agricultural?" "What about their social habits?" "Were they a patriarchal or matriarchal society"...so on and so forth.

Dr. Richard Leakey blown away by their questions, answered them as direct, and as sure as he could, with his famous statement..."All I know," as he pointed to a map, "Is I found the bone, here!"

Get it??"

Now go do your survey, and stop spinning...you'll only get dizzier!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Dec 13 - 09:20 PM

Sciencegeek, I get the distinct impression that Goofball is a descendant of Piltdown Man.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 03:29 AM

There's only one thing standing in the way of Don's understanding of why people didn't show up to 'enroll' in this wonderfully great 'plan', as he sees it, or face fines for not 'enrolling' and go without 'Healthcare'...maybe he thinks their 'civil disobedience' was just coincidental, or maybe he thinks they were just too busy looking for that overdue library book, or maybe he thinks it's the TEA Party's fault, that they can't see a good thing when they see it.....or maybe he thinks they're watching too much Fox News, or maybe he thinks the President didn't convey how great of a plan this is....or maybe he's beside himself because he knows that all the people aren't as smart as he is, and after all the 'Hope and Change' isn't really 'Bait and Switch'....he just can't figure it out, or can't admit to himself the REAL reason that out of 6 million people who got cancelled, they've had only a total of 2 million sign up...and mostly for Medicaid....this doesn't make sense to him.....Do you think in his private moments it might have occurred to him, the reason he can't figure this out is because

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 04:24 AM

Oh...and Merry Christmas!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 08:12 AM

Sciencegeek, I get the distinct impression that Goofball is a descendant of Piltdown Man.

LOL :D

good one, Don, on many levels

I wonder if the high heeled sneakers actually reside in his closet, because they sure as heck aren't in mine... lol

sensible foot gear is what's needed out in the field & pasture, as anyone with actual experience would know.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 12:16 PM

Out of the corner of one side of their mouths, they bash corporatism, and out of the corner of the other side they applaud a law forcing people to send their money to their select crony corporations, or face the IRS.......
ROFLMAO!!!!!!
....and then they rail against Fascism!!!!.....ROFLMAO!!!!!!


                  ROFLMAO!!!!!!                                       ROFLMAO!!!!!!                                 ROFLMAO!!!!!!



                               ROFLMAO!!!!!!



ROFLMAO!!!!!!......

...and then they call themselves 'liberals'...ROFLMAO!!!!!!      


       ROFLMAO!!!!!!


                                              ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Try Nazis!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 01:04 PM

Yup! He's reduced to playing the "Nazi" card.

Sure sign he's lost it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 01:16 PM

Actually, an obvious sign that he's lost it is his rolling on the floor laughing hysterically, under the impression that he knows what other people are thinking. He is so self-contradictory that it's obvious that he doesn't even know what HE'S thinking!

If at all!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 01:20 PM

I think he's in his manic phase...

wonder what Santa brought him, probably not his meds...


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 02:24 PM

How about you two morons addressing the issue, instead of patting each other on the back...and stroking each other's other parts!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 03:38 PM

". . . stroking each other's other parts!" would be something of particular interest to you, eh, Goofball?

Sorry about Santa's visit last night, Goofy But he knows best. CLICKY.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 07:49 PM

Oh, I got it!..The old system, that you didn't like, was the insurance companies ripping the people off, making it unaffordable for the 'common folk'...so, you're guys have a better idea.....make a law, where everybody gets to be ripped off, BY LAW, the state will levy a fine, on those who can't afford to be ripped off,....the insurance companies raise the premiums, and fatten the deductibles, limit services and doctors, so by the time you pay the deductible, the insurance companies don't have to pay squat, make people pay for stuff they don't want or need, put it up on a faulty unsecured website, promote it with lying to the people....and you can't think of one reason why the majority of people in the country thinks this law sucks...and are NOT 'enrolling'...and not interested in the bullshit.....looking forward to voting every nincompoop out of office who voted for it...AND then, you two compliment each other on how bright you are!!!.........because it is a great diversion from addressing the topic, and an attempt to 'discredit' those who call this to your attention....(Remember this:

"(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!)."

(just as I predicted)...

Then you say you didn't like Obamacare....and then you defend it as being an improvement!!!???!!!

Sounds like they 'fixed it' REAL good!...
Like two steps forward, and three steps back!

I just thought I'd refresh your memories as to the 'what and whys' of the topic.

Care to share your 'wisdom' ...or are the cupboards pretty bare?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Dec 13 - 09:53 PM

No, I guess you really are that clueless.

First of all, your analysis of the system as it was is inaccurate, largely because you exaggerate everything, trying to make bad enough look even worse. Then, when President Obama tries to improve the system so that everybody has adequate coverage, you have a wall-eyed hissy-fit. Why? For no good reason except that it's Obama who's trying to fix it.

Goofus:   "Then you say you didn't like Obamacare....and then you defend it as being an improvement!!!???!!!"

I didn't say that I don't like the Affordable Care Act. I said that it didn't go far enough. I would like to see universal, one payer coverage, but Obama is not so stupid as to think he can get that through a majority Right Wing Congress. I understand what he is trying to do and I also understand why he is doing it that way. It is far from perfect, but it's the best he could hope to get under the circumstances.

And the Right Wing Congress STILL blocks it!

I give Obama full marks for giving it a try.

I give you a dead slug for not having brains enough to know what's actually going on outside of your own warped imagination!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 01:48 AM

THIS IS A CROCK OF SHIT..AND ..I'll TELL YOU WHY!!!


Firth: "Then, when President Obama tries to improve the system so that everybody has adequate coverage, you have a wall-eyed hissy-fit. Why? For no good reason except that it's Obama who's trying to fix it.

I would like to see universal, one payer coverage, but Obama is not so stupid as to think he can get that through a majority Right Wing Congress. I understand what he is trying to do and I also understand why he is doing it that way. It is far from perfect, but it's the best he could hope to get under the circumstances.

And the Right Wing Congress STILL blocks it!

I give Obama full marks for giving it a try."

Starting from the top:
Firth: "Then, when President Obama tries to improve the system so that everybody has adequate coverage, you have a wall-eyed hissy-fit. Why? For no good reason except that it's Obama who's trying to fix it."

Fix it???...How? By lying to the nation about what it was??..and then adding these 'adjustments'??....BTW, if Congress passed it, and signed it, and he signed it in its original form, the Executive Branch cannot change it by fiat, 'executive orders', or by tweaking it at his whim to try to save political face. The bill has to stand, or go through the legislative process.
Also, have you noticed that those further down on the political 'food chain', who were in charge of failed parts of it, who also were caught lying to Congress, in the subsequent hearings, not one has been fired or hardly reprimanded? (Same as Benghazi and other crimes, IRS, Fast and Furious, etc. etc(but that's another bunch of issues).

Firth: "I would like to see universal, one payer coverage, but Obama is not so stupid as to think he can get that through a majority Right Wing Congress. I understand what he is trying to do and I also understand why he is doing it that way. It is far from perfect, but it's the best he could hope to get under the circumstances."

This is PURE horseshit, and a lying talking point from DAY ONE!
Obama got this passed, lobbied for it, gave waivers and other bribes, to get the votes to pass it....it passed through a Democrat House of Representatives, and a Democrat Senate, being as at the time, it was a Democrat majority controlled Congress, BOTH HOUSES!!...and he signed it!! There was NO Republican way, to in ANY way, change it, add to it, subtract from it, or even obstruct it. It was so closed up, that the Senate did not, and could not even see or read the last minute changes, before they voted on it. I hope everyone remembers Herr Pelosi's now famous, pre-vote speech, about "Let's pass this bill, so we can see what's in it.."
Oh, speaking of 'closed up'..remember candidate Obama promising transparency????? Remember him promising all negotiations for bills would be put up on C-SPAN??..open to all the public???..more horseshit!

Firth: "And the Right Wing Congress STILL blocks it!"

Blocks what??? It is already the law....he's the one changing it,(illegally) about weekly.

Firth: "I understand what he is trying to do and I also understand why he is doing it that way."

Well why don't you in your 'infinite wisdom', explain it all PLAINLY!
And while you're at it, explain that WHY if he had the political muscle of both Houses, in the beginning, why he didn't pass it the way you say he wanted it...when he KNEW damn well there was not enough opposition to it to oppose, block, alter or obstruct it in ANY WAY!
BTW, both the Democrats lost a lot of seats in Both Houses in the following elections due to it...AND...a lot of Democrats who voted Democrat in the prior elections, voted AGAINST their own party because of it....and now this year they are expecting to be slaughtered in the next election...because of Obamacare. Democrat polls plunging...Obama approval rating lower than Bush's, at the same time into their last term...

Now so much for the bullshit politics of it.....
Why doesn't Firth explain what the Obama Administration REALLY want...and who does he want it for???

EVERYTHING that I replied to, is all truthful and EASILY provable!!
Some of you should be easily able to remember the history as it unfolded....so what is this continuation of lies for???

The people are voting by NOT 'enrolling'....The people who lost their existing coverage are voting by NOT buying the lies or the Obamacare policies....Medicaid was always available to those who qualified, before their was an Obamacare....and yet the numbers of 'enrollees' are MOSTLY Medicaid.....the younger demographic wants nothing to do with it. The people are more willing to pay a fine and pay for healthcare right out of their pockets than to enroll in it...This is clearly civil disobedience on an unprecedented scale, for this country(maybe except for the illegal drug market).

So Don, just what the fuck are you talking about???
..and this time see if you can NOT divert the thread...but ANSWER the question like a 'normal' person.

You can call me anything you want....IF you CAN'T or WON'T answer the question. there's a few Democrats in Mudcat, that might like to have answers as well.....BECAUSE....(as I posted during the last presidential elections)....the Democrats are about to hand over ALL this ill gotten gain to the Republicans...both Houses and the Presidency to the Republicans....in it's present form!
(Gosh, you'd think those insurance corporation lobbyists would have known that, too...from the beginning??)..awww..they wouldn't care..they'd just buy the Republicans, too....it wouldn't be the first time!

OK, Firth..explain....save the name calling...it won't be your saving grace!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 03:46 AM

Ooops..I forgot one:

Firth: ""Then, when President Obama tries to improve the system so that everybody has adequate coverage,....(blah blah blah...)"

Adequate?? Not only are people losing their doctors(another lie he told), they are losing specialists treating long term illnesses like cancer and other terminal illness.

"tries to improve the system so that everybody has adequate coverage.."

Then why are charitable hospitals who take in and care for people, and who rely on donations primarily, being taxed and heavily fined?? What BUSINESS is it of anyone who is interested in..."tries to improve the system so that everybody has adequate coverage.."
I thought the idea was to get AFFORDABLE healthcare to everyone and anyone who needed it....why move to close down the 'free' ones??..not only that, some rather GOOD hospitals are NOT going to be taking in Obamacare patients.

Come on, you must have some sociopath lie to tell about that one, too!

Here, read about it yourselves....take your pick of sites! .

Name calling?? Lies?? Diversions??...How about a straight up answer........FOR A CHANGE!!!!!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 01:10 PM

Bullshit!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 02:27 PM

Yesterday being Christmas, my wife and I had eleven people over for dinner. During about eight hours of eating until we squeaked, sitting around burpin' and scratchin', exchanging presents, and generally enjoying all-around pleasant conversation, the matter of the Affordable Care Act came up.

Some of the people there said that they didn't have to do a thing, that their insurance was fine as it was.

That was the case with Barbara and me: our health insurance (modest, easily handled premiums) are fine as is.

One couple said they got word that their health insurance did not provide adequate protection, so they followed a couple of suggestions and found better health insurance for a much lower premium.

That, of course, was not a big sample, but, take a look at THIS:

CLICKY.

Suck it up, Goofball!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 03:46 PM

You think I'm bullshitting???...EXPLAIN WHERE!

You think I was wrong about this too????

"From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Dec 13 - 06:56 PM

Well we've moved up to the next part: "(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)..."

jeez, even in order

(happens every time their backs are to the wall...as I explained earlier).....(next he'll start with insults and an attempt to discredit every body, except himself)...(and then he'll start in on about himself, and why and how he became 'so wise')...without winning a discussion...(he's into 'winning', more than making sense!)."

PERFECT!! You've completed the cycle, and start talking about yourself, just as foretold(and my above post was quoting from an earlier post, as well!!)....and frankly, who gives a shit? You think I haven't clocked the way you bullshit???!!??

Address the topic being discussed, and if you can disprove any of what I've said ABOUT OBAMACARE, put it forth. If you can't you owe some apologies...and to more than just me!

Reply, please.............................(or be found out for being an opinionated fraud.)

GfS

P.S...Jeez, I told him before that he and his predictability were getting boring...along with his MIS-information!


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 05:03 PM

Goofball, I have repeatedly posted FACTS and given RELIABLE SOURCES for those facts. Yet, you continue to argue, denying those facts, and keep trying to draw me into protracted responses to your attacks. An obvious attempt to induce me to feed your sick little ego. That's the sure mark of a troll.

If you are not just a common troll, then let me ask you this:

Do you have a pen?

I think you'd better get back into it before the farmer finds you missing.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 06:27 PM

Pull one up then....not looking for a lame opinion...just a verifiable fact. Not a 'talking point hope'..a verifiable fact related to this topic.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 07:05 PM

Most interesting!!

Several most interesting FACTS within the article.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Elmore
Date: 26 Dec 13 - 07:10 PM

GFS and DF duking it out on boxing day. How appropriate.


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 03:18 PM

Hey! This should be fun!!!

Firth: "Most interesting!!
Several most interesting FACTS within the article."

Upon a closer look at the article posted by 'Our Resident Self Appointed Expert' he posted an op-ed dated, 'Oct. 2, 2013'...which means that is written the day before Oct.1, or possibly Oct. 2.
Initial roll-out day was Oct.1!!!!

Look for yourselves...

"Business Insider More: Obamacare Republicans
Republicans Hate Obamacare Because They're Afraid People Will Like It
Henry Blodget
Oct. 2, 2013, 7:37 AM 79,148 207"

BEFORE all the troubles came to light, and BEFORE anybody knew about how many people lost their plans...and BEFORE it came to light that the President was lying his ass off to promote this fraud!

The article starts off:

"One of the big mysteries about the government shutdown is why Republicans are so furiously opposed to the Affordable Care Act, a.k.a., Obamacare."

A bigger mystery is why Democrats overlooked common sense to let this bill to be passed without reading it....and then make excuses, as if that was a noble tactic....and now, deny any understanding as to why they are all being voted out of office!

Next sentence"

"Yes, the Act has many problems, not the least of which are its high costs and mind-boggling complexity."

THIS is the ONLY FACT in the op-ed piece!!!!

If you go on further, the author writes: "So why are the Republicans so outraged about Obamacare?
There are different THEORIES."

Theories???????????

After finishing those THEORIES immediately he moves on, with this one: "Outside the Republican Party, there are different theories."

THEORIES??????????

....and continues: "Some say the Republicans just hate anything that Obama likes. Based on the last five years, there's seems to be plenty of evidence to support this THEORY."

...and continues: "Another THEORY, popular last year, is that the Republicans don't like the tax increases that are necessary to pay for Obamacare. But the Republicans don't talk about these taxes (or the deficit) anymore when they air their objections to Obamacare."

..and continues: "Another THEORY is that the Republicans are just "crazy."

....and continues: "So why do the Republicans hate Obamacare?

Eduardo Porter floats an interesting THEORY in the New York Times.
The Republicans hate Obamacare, Porter SUGGESTS, because they're terrified that Americans are going to like it.
and again, continues after the 'poll' taken in MARCH: "So that's certainly one interesting THEORY about why the Republicans hate Obamacare so much — because they're worried that their constituents are actually going to like it."

Sounds like a bunch of half baked unsupported THEORIES, delivered by your Mongoloid twin!

...and a word about, 'Here are figures from Kaiser's March 2013 poll:'
You mean the same Kaiser crony, on the list of insurance companies on the exchange???

Don, if anyone has proven my point, you have!

...besides, if you could have read and had comprehension of what you read, you would have read, in my post,

"Pull one up then....not looking for a lame opinion...just a verifiable fact. Not a 'talking point hope'..a verifiable fact related to this topic."

Instead, you gave us a stupid op-ed, from some Bozo charlatan who didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground...just another talking shill!!

Here's a refresher....and NOT limited to "Why Republicans Hate Obamacare"....(I can't believe you posted that bit of stupidity!)

"The people are voting by NOT 'enrolling'....The people who lost their existing coverage are voting by NOT buying the lies or the Obamacare policies....Medicaid was always available to those who qualified, before their was an Obamacare....and yet the numbers of 'enrollees' are MOSTLY Medicaid.....the younger demographic wants nothing to do with it. The people are more willing to pay a fine and pay for healthcare right out of their pockets than to enroll in it...This is clearly civil disobedience on an unprecedented scale, for this country(maybe except for the illegal drug market).

So Don, just what the fuck are you talking about???
..and this time see if you can NOT divert the thread...but ANSWER the question like a 'normal' person.

You can call me anything you want....IF you CAN'T or WON'T answer the question. there's a few Democrats in Mudcat, that might like to have answers as well.....BECAUSE....(as I posted during the last presidential elections)....the Democrats are about to hand over ALL this ill gotten gain to the Republicans...both Houses and the Presidency to the Republicans....in it's present form!"

So, I repeat, 'So Don, just what the fuck are you talking about???
..and this time see if you can NOT divert the thread...but ANSWER the question like a 'normal' person.'

Want try again?

FACTS!...(if you know what those are)

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 04:16 PM

No, NOT before! The carping started when the Affordable Care Act was in the early planning stages and has gotten louder ever since. The bitching is done by those who will have to start dealing honestly with their clients, and, of course, by the usual suspects who, if Obama could end all death and disease in the world, would caterwaul that Obama is attacking the funeral industry and trying to deprive the medical profession of any business at all. And those who hate Obama for—reasons of their own.

As far as health insurance companies are concerned, the Affordable Care Act is separating the sheep from the goats. The only people having to change their insurance are those whose health insurance policies do not provide adequate coverage. Oftentimes people with these policies do not realize what their policy does NOT cover until they NEED those particular services.

Opponents of the ACA are claiming that it is a sop to the health insurance companies. But what it's actually doing is notifying their clients of the inadequacies of their policies and putting insurance companies on notice that if they want to be part of the program, they're going to have to get their act together.

That is a GOOD thing.

The roll-out of the New Deal faced similar flak from the Republicans, the bankers, and others profited from the status quo and who hated FDR—including people like Goofball, who doesn't know his ass from his elbow. It put the brakes on their screwing the populace at large. A few wrinkles had to be ironed out—and, of course it's opponents jumped on every wrinkle and tried to claim that it was The End of the World (just like they're doing with the Affordable Care Act), but once it got under way, was the beginning of the end for the Great Depression. Suddenly, the bankers and the money brokers, who were responsible for bringing about the Great Depression in the first place were required—by LAW—to behave themselves.

In the same way that health insurance companies will have to stop ripping people off!

Closet Right-Wingers like Goofy (he keeps a lot of things in his closet that he doesn't want to admit to himself) keep flying in tighter and tighter circles until he'll soon fly up his own ass.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 04:37 PM

Can you prove ANYTHING????..or just spout off more dumb opinions???

You want 'interesting' reading...from a 'Progressive' site???

At lest it's an educated opinion!
Check it out!

GfS

P.S....let's not get off on 'opinions'..but I thought this may be of interest to YOU....might even cause you to think...(for once).


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 05:53 PM

The New Republic is viewed as highly dubious by many knowledgeable Liberals. The magazine has had its troubles, and continues in its policy of its right hand not knowing what it's left hand is doing.
Controversies

Michael Straight


New Republic editor Michael Whitney Straight (1948 to 1956) was later discovered to be a spy for the KGB, recruited into the same network as Donald Maclean, Guy Burgess, Kim Philby, and Anthony Blunt. Straight's espionage activities began at Cambridge during the 1930s; he later claimed that they ceased during World War II. Later, shortly before serving in Kennedy administration, he revealed his past ties and turned in fellow spy Anthony Blunt. In return for his cooperation, his own involvement was kept secret and he continued to serve in various capacities for the US Government until he retired. Straight admitted to his involvement in his memoirs; however, subsequent documents obtained from the former KGB after the fall of the Soviet Union indicated that he drastically understated the extent of his espionage activities.

Ruth Shalit plagiarism

In 1995, writer Ruth Shalit was fired for repeated incidents of plagiarism and an excess of factual errors in her articles.

Stephen Glass scandal

In 1998, features writer Stephen Glass was revealed in a Forbes Digital investigation to have fabricated a story called "Hack Heaven". A TNR investigation found that most of Glass' stories had used or been based on fabricated information. The story of Glass's fall and TNR editor Chuck Lane's handling of the scandal was dramatized in a 2003 film "Shattered Glass," based on a 1998 article in Vanity Fair.

Lee Siegel

In 2006, long-time contributor, critic, and senior editor Lee Siegel, who had maintained a blog on the TNR site dedicated primarily to art and culture, was revealed by an investigation to have collaborated in posting comments to his own blog under an alias aggressively praising Siegel, attacking his critics and claiming not to be Lee Siegel when challenged by an anonymous detractor on his blog. The blog was removed from the website and Siegel was suspended from writing for the print magazine. He resumed writing for TNR in April 2007. Siegel was also controversial for his coinage "blogofascists" which he applied to "the entire political blogosphere", though with an emphasis on left wing or center-left bloggers such as Daily Kos and Atrios.

Spencer Ackerman

In 2006, associate editor Spencer Ackerman was fired by Foer. Describing it as a "painful" decision, Foer attributed the firing to Ackerman's "insubordination": disparaging the magazine on his personal blog,[42] saying that he would "skullfuck" a terrorist's corpse at an editorial meeting if that was required to "establish his anti-terrorist bona fides" and sending Foer an e-mail where he said—in what according to Ackerman was intended to be a joke—he would "make a niche in your skull" with a baseball bat. Ackerman, by contrast, argued that the dismissal was due to "irreconcilable ideological differences." He believed that his leftward drift as a result of the Iraq War and the actions of the Bush administration was not appreciated by the senior editorial staff. Within 24 hours of being fired by The New Republic, Ackerman was hired as a senior correspondent for a rival magazine, The American Prospect.

Scott Thomas Beauchamp controversy

In July 2007, after The New Republic published an article by an American soldier in Iraq titled "Shock Troops," allegations of inadequate fact-checking were leveled against the magazine. Critics alleged that the piece contained inconsistent details indicative of fabrication. The identity of the anonymous soldier, Scott Thomas Beauchamp, was revealed. Beauchamp was married to Elspeth Reeve, one of the magazine's three fact-checkers. As a result of the controversy, the New Republic and the United States Army launched investigations, reaching different conclusions.

As of December 1, 2007, an article titled "The Fog of War" and bearing the byline of Franklin Foer, postdate December 10, 2007, has been available for professional critique. In the article, Foer writes that the magazine can no longer stand behind the stories written by Beauchamp.
You see, Goofball, during my days as radio station news director and editor, I learned to check and double-check the reliability of information sources. Even the ones that you would automatically assume you could trust.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 06:18 PM

Firth: "You see, Goofball, during my days as radio station news director and editor, I learned to check and double-check the reliability of information sources. Even the ones that you would automatically assume you could trust."

Well you sure fucked up on the link you posted!
Nonetheless, even a broken clock is right twice a day....


Now, back to your posting of some FACTS, as related to Obamacare, refuting what I posted...and stop talking about yourself..I thought we covered that already!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Dec 13 - 06:20 PM

Firth: "The New Republic is viewed as highly dubious by many knowledgeable Liberals. The magazine has had its troubles, and continues in its policy of its right hand not knowing what it's left hand is doing."

"...and continues in its policy of its right hand not knowing what it's left hand is doing."

Sounds pretty 'liberal' to me!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obama