BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 01:18 PM

Nobody, you obviously deliberately misread what I wrote. I did NOT say that the ACA was a single payer health plan. I said that what President Obama would like to achieve is a single payer health care plan. But he knows that with there is no way he could get that past a Republican/Tea Party dominated Congress.

Either learn to read or try being HONEST for a change!!

In the meantime, cast your eye over THIS:

AlterNet / By Dean Baker
November 13, 2013

No, Obama Didn't Lie to You About Your Health Care Plans   

President Obama has been getting a lot of grief in the last few weeks over his pledge that with the Affordable Care Act (ACA) in place, people would be able to keep their insurance if they like it. The media have been filled with stories about people across the country who are having their insurance policies terminated, ostensibly because they did not meet the requirements of the ACA. While this has led many to say that Obama was lying, there is much less here than meets the eye.

First, it is important to note that the ACA grand-fathered all the individual policies that were in place at the time the law was enacted. This means that the plans in effect at the time that President Obama was pushing the bill could still be offered even if they did not meet all the standards laid out in the ACA.

The plans being terminated because they don't meet the minimal standards were all plans that insurers introduced after the passage of the ACA. Insurers introduced these plans knowing that they would not meet the standards that would come into effect in 2014. Insurers may not have informed their clients at the time they sold these plans that they would not be available after 2014 because they had designed a plan that did not comply with the ACA.

However if the insurers didn't tell their clients that the new plans would only be available for a short period of time, the blame would seem to rest with the insurance companies, not the ACA. After all, President Obama did not promise people that he would keep insurers from developing new plans that will not comply with the provisions of the ACA.

In addition to the new plans that were created that did not comply with the terms of the ACA, there have been complaints that the grandfathering was too strict. For example, insurers can only raise their premiums or deductibles by a small amount above the rate of medical inflation. As a result, many of the plans in existence at the time of the ACA are losing their grandfathered status.

In this case also it is wrong to view the insurers as passive actors who are being forced to stop offering plans because of the ACA. The price increases charged by insurers are not events outside of the control of insurers. If an insurer offers a plan which has many committed buyers, then presumably it would be able to structure its changes in ways that are consistent with the ACA. If it decides not to do so, this is presumably because the insurer has decided that it is not interested in continuing to offer the plan.

As a practical matter, there are many plans that insurers will opt to drop for market reasons that may or may not have anything to do with the ACA. It's hard to see how this could be viewed as a violation of President Obama's pledge. After all, insurers change and drop plans all the time. Did people who heard Obama's pledge understand it to mean that insurers would no longer have this option once the ACA passed?

If Obama's pledge was understood as ensuring that every plan that was in existence in 2010 would remain in existence, then it would imply a complete federal takeover of the insurance industry. This would require the government to tell insurers that they must continue to offer plans even if they are losing money on them and even if the plans had lost most of their customers. This would at the least be a strange policy. It would be surprising if many people thought this was the meaning of President Obama's pledge.

Finally, there will be many plans that insurers will stop offering in large part because of the changed market conditions created by the ACA. For example, last week the Washington Post highlighted a plan for the "hardest to insure" that was being cancelled by Pathmark Blue Cross of Pennsylvania.

This plan is likely being cancelled because it is unable to compete with the insurance being offered through the exchanges. The exchanges charge everyone the same rate regardless of their pre-existing health conditions. A plan that is especially designed for people who have serious health conditions would almost certainly charge a far higher rate. If these high-priced plans no longer exist because they cannot compete with the exchanges would this mean that President Obama had broken his pledge?

On closer inspection, the claim that President Obama lied in saying that people could keep their insurance looks like another Fox News special. In the only way that the pledge could be interpreted as being meaningful, the pledge is true. The ACA does not eliminate plans that were in existence at the time the bill was approved.

If we want to play Fox News, President Obama also promised people they could keep their doctor. Since 2010 tens of thousands of doctors have retired or even died. Guess the pledge that people could keep their doctor was yet another lie from the Obama administration.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 01:12 PM

nobody... your comments are the truest indicator of your total lack of interest in anything other than twisting the words of others and presenting a limited "argument" that is as offbased as the wronger's initial premise.

bluntly put... talking to the wall is as useful as responding to your BS. But for others who may actually give a damn... what has racial bias have to do with the ACA??? It shouldn't... but here in the USA is does. It influences who gets jail time and who can get a loan or a job or access to a good school or in this case, it influences people who hate the fact that our President had an African father. And therefore hate anything he stands for. The very same people who on the same poll "hate" Obamacare but are in favor of the Affordable Acre Act.

You picked a good name for yourself... "nobody" with nothing positive or useful to contribute.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 12:27 PM

Mr. Firth SAYS, "Trying to discuss anything with you is hopeless."

Ridiculous. You are the one who is interchanging the conversation about ACA and then go on about 'single payer'. Single payer is NOT the subject of this topic. Just look above. Here, I'll save you the trouble: "RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?" What I was and am saying is that the lying about it and misrepresenting what was in it, that was not even read by those who voted on it seems to be the biggest problem. Perhaps if they DID read it it could have been a single payer bill AND improvements might have been incorporated. As it is now, it's looking like and utter failing mess!
Perhaps you should stop your lying as well. That way you wouldn't have to 'twist' it around and say stupid and misleading like, ""Trying to discuss anything with you is hopeless."

"That's not an insult. That's a FACT.""
So if you want to carry on a decent conversation with me or anyone, for that matter, dispense with the misstatements, diversions lies, and wild accusations; and while you're at it, you might apply that to defending politicians who do the same. THEN the conversation will go to an up-tick.

Sciencegeek, you said in your first segment, "There is a definite effort on the part of Republican run states to disenfranchise as many citizens as they can get away with in the hopes that the reduced voting pool will consist of like minded individuals who will keep them in power. Very democratic, wouldn't you say?"

Yes I definitely would and would also add that There is a definite effort on the part of DEMOCRAT run states to disenfranchise as many citizens as they can get away with in the hopes that the reduced voting pool will consist of like minded individuals who will keep them in power. Very democratic, wouldn't you say?"
YES again, but as you pointed out, " Very democratic, wouldn't you say?"   If you don't believe me just look at those who are Democrats on this site, who bash Republicans, and the reverse! You even have Democrats accusing me of being right wing and a Republican. Not because they have anything to base it on, other than I've posed questions that the Democrats have a hard time answering, without resorting to lying accusations and snide remarks coupled with wild diversions. Just review Mr. Firth's dialogue with me! That said, you have been more on topic,, but you should apply the same standards to both sides(as illustrated).

Sciencegeek continues, "This cCongress is a disgrace... but there are no laws that will penalize them for their actions - or inactions as the case may be."
Are you referring to the Congress who was in the majority of both Houses who voted on a bill along partisan lines that they didn't even bother to read? In that case, you are absolutely correct! If the Republicans do that(and they do) don't you scream bloody murder? (as you should). You really do need to apply the same standards to both sides, as I mentioned before.

Sciencegeek, goes on, "And we still have way too many people in this country ready to hate anyone with skin color that doesn't match theirs. That is the sad truth we are struggling with."

What does this have to do with the ACA? Nothing! Playing the racial issue is an old tactical trick that really doesn't work any more. Speaking of which, black unemployment numbers are proportionately WAY up since the Obama Presidency. Is he being racist?

Sciencegeek goes on, "As for elected officials... there is no civil service test needed or minimum qualifications to run for office. It's less about what an individual has done and more about what their parents achieved, so they ride on the tail of another's success. AND they have paid their "dues" to the party machine and have little desire to rock the boat."

Sounds like you are referring to the prior experience and expertise that Obama had before the elite ran him. Again, apply the same standards to both sides of an issue before you start pointing fingers, Remember, when you point a finger, there are three others pointing back to you!

And finally 'Guest', "

Are you all incapable of sticking to the subject with any continuity?
Are you incapable of answering direct easy questions.
Have the Repugnants ever tried affordable health care? If so, when? "

I'm not defending one side or another, but to answer your question, I believe it was under your former President Bush that they made subsidies for cheaper prescription medicine. That said, I don't think the Republicans have done much to even regulate the insurance companies nor health care costs. Now that it has become a huge topic out there because of the Obama Care fiasco. I expect that they will probably make some sort of feeble attempt if not a worse one.

All done?

I think I answered you all fairly and accurately.

As a side note to you all, especially Mr. Firth; you all might want to check into Taiwan's health care system, rated the best in the world, and best with patient's satisfaction. Been there too.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 11:49 AM

In a nation with 50 states, 36 of which are under Republican governors intent on setting every obstacle they can to a smooth role out of the AFA, it is impossible to provide a simple answer... unless "it depends" is acceptable.


This from Dr. Sanjay Gupta on CNN in early Oct.

I met a woman named Yvonne in Greenville, South Carolina, where the CNN Express was reporting on the rollout of Obamacare. Yvonne had a big smile and was very excited -- you couldn't miss her.

I first noticed her standing in line, waiting patiently to ask a few questions about health care. Most of the questions I had been asked up until that time revolved around the logistics of signing up, whether they could pick a particular doctor and how much all this was going to cost.

Yvonne, who didn't give her last name, started by telling me that she had been able to get off Medicaid in the past year. Before that, she had been living in her car, intermittently staying with friends. Now she has a place to live, and she's excited about the prospect of finally being able to get private health care insurance for the first time in her life.

Yvonne, 35, told me she works part-time as a hairstylist assistant. She said she makes $9 an hour, which at 20 hours a week works out to about $9,360 a year. She is still impoverished, but considers herself lucky because she's never had a major illness.

"Human impact of Obamacare"... "My insert here- understanding that the ACA is a compromise within Congress to get at least a piece of the pie."

Obamacare rollout: Day 3

Rocky start to Obamacare

Obamacare: Who's in and who's out? As we spoke about South Carolina's sign-up process, I realized I was explaining some unwelcome news: Yvonne is not eligible for any assistance toward buying health insurance.

Let me try to explain: In a state that has chosen not to expand Medicaid, Yvonne is in the staggering position of now making too much money to qualify for Medicaid, and too little to obtain subsidies through the Affordable Care Act.

This wasn't how it was supposed to go down for Yvonne and others like her all over the country. When you imagine the people likely to benefit the most from the Affordable Care Act, you probably think of someone just like her.

By obtaining a real job with enough income, Yvonne has disqualified herself from her state's Medicaid program. But in order to qualify for subsidies in South Carolina, she needs to get above the poverty line, and she is not quite there. Yvonne and an estimated 7 million others now find themselves in a coverage gap.

The tax subsidies available through the health exchanges were intended to make private insurance coverage affordable for those between the poverty line and four times as much -- people who now shoulder the responsibility, by law, of purchasing their own coverage.

Last year, in its landmark ruling that left most of the ACA in place, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the Medicaid expansion is optional for states. South Carolina, and 25 other states, turned it down. As a result, a big swath of the uninsured will stay that way when new coverage options kick in January 1.

I asked Kentucky Senate hopeful Matt Bevin, a Republican, who was against the expansion in his state, about this. Democratic Gov. Steve Beshear has been a proponent of the law, and Kentucky has expanded Medicaid to cover anyone making up to 138% of the poverty line. When I described Yvonne's situation to Bevin, he was sympathetic but immediately replied, "Where is the money going to come from?"

His is a common sentiment among leaders of states that have refused Medicaid dollars from the federal government. For the time being, the money comes from the federal government. In the states that accepted Medicaid expansion, the federal government will pick up 100% of the tab for four years. For the next three years, it will pay for slightly less. Beyond 2020 it will cover 90% of the cost.

The man who oversees the health insurance expansion in Maryland, Dr Joshua Sharfstein, was stunned that so many states turned the money down. According to the analysis in Maryland, the economic benefits of Medicaid expansion would be in the billions.

As I walked with him, I asked if he could give a single reason -- medically or financially -- for a state not to accept the Medicaid dollars. He thought about it for a moment, and said "none."

"This is just politics," he added.

Yvonne doesn't have many options. She can't get subsidies, Medicaid or health insurance. One small solace is that she won't be forced to pay any tax penalty for not having insurance.

"Oh well, I guess that is good," Yvonne replied when I told her.

She had worked so hard to come off Medicaid, but asked me at the end of the day for a list of states where she might move to get back on the Medicaid program once again.

I believe that in the New Testament, the only time Jesus got violent was when he whipped the merchants & money lenders from the temple. Wonder how he would react to the so-called Christian Right in the US Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 10:26 AM

Are you all incapable of sticking to the subject with any continuity?
Are you incapable of answering direct easy questions.

Have the Repugnants ever tried affordable health care? If so, when?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM

"My points were aimed at, if it's a Democracy, then just bring up an honest bill that is actually read by the people voting on it. If not, then those people should be removed from office, even prosecuted if need be for fraud and dereliction of duty. If this issue wasn't so polarised along party lines and stood on its own merits perhaps it wouldn't have been so divisive and gained bi-partisan support. But as it is, and how it was handled look what has happened."

Using the above as the goal posts, lets examine the case.

1. The United States is a democratic republic. We elect representatives based on population ( using the most recent census data) and then each state has two senators. There is a definite effort on the part of Republican run states to disenfranchise as many citizens as they can get away with in the hopes that the reduced voting pool will consist of like minded individuals who will keep them in power. Very democratic, wouldn't you say?

2. When the Republican Party elected officals make open comments about how they intend to ensure that the duly elected President fails in his efforts to perform the duties of his office, just how do you expect to gain bi-partisan support for anything. This cCongress is a disgrace... but there are no laws that will penalize them for their actions - or inactions as the case may be.

3. For country that based its formation on the propostion that all men are created equal ( we'll ignore the plight of women for now) it took some pretty ugly political manipulstion for President Lincoln to get Congress to abolish slavery. Watch the movie Lincoln - it's on DVD now, so no excuse not to. There is way more behind the scenes than shown in the film, but it does get the point across. And almost 100 years later it took a decree by the Commander in Chief, President Truman, to finally integrate the armed forces. And we still have way too many people in this country ready to hate anyone with skin color that doesn't match theirs. That is the sad truth we are struggling with.

4. As for elected officials... there is no civil service test needed or minimum qualifications to run for office. It's less about what an individual has done and more about what their parents achieved, so they ride on the tail of another's success. AND they have paid their "dues" to the party machine and have little desire to rock the boat. We are creating a "privilaged class" of people in this so called "classless society" - comprised of wealthy families that send their children off to become lawyers and politicians ready to make the laws that keep them on top.

5. If Nobody is so concerned about America, why is no outrage about what Conservatives and Republican governors are doing to women and the poor in their own states?

Again I ask... what suggestions does Nobody have to improve health care in the USA?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Nov 13 - 12:02 AM

Nobody, your tactics in debate involve not just moving the goal posts. You move the location of the field. Trying to discuss anything with you is hopeless.

That's not an insult. That's a FACT.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 11:55 PM

GOVENOR MOON BEAM of California has been providing for several years.

Administered by the county's an example of 100% free services is found in the "Healthy Way LA" program.

There is no fee.

Services include:Regular and continuous access to health care providers
Comprehensive care via a medical home in a preferred geographic location
Primary care services
Specialty clinic referrals
Comprehensive preventive services
Care Management Services for chronic illnesses
Emergency care
Urgent care services
Access to Drug prescription pharmacies
Health education and information
Mental health Services
Translation services
Access to nurse support telephone services
Access to up-to-date health information

Life does not get much better than this.
Temperatures drop below 39F less than ten days a year in "the basin."
Shelters are abundant with free meals.
"GENERAL RELIEF" pays about $9 a day and can be redeemed at fast food restaurants. There is an abundance of freeway overpasses for shelter; and many sites have a view across the abundant water.

If you don't like the cold of a Wyoming winter....sojourn for a while on the ample and bounty filled breasts of the Golden State

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 11:19 PM

You don't have to be so nasty about it.
I gave you an analogy using the crate scenario. You said, "The fact that the United States is one of the few countries in the world that does NOT have a single payer health care system for its citizens is the shame of the entire nation."
and, "Mixed race, actually, but in the parts of the country of which I speak, many people consider any mixing of races "against God and Nature." For example, to them, an "octaroon" (someone who is one-eight Black) is a "nigger." And is regarded as sub-human. Until remarkably recently, in these states it was illegal for two people of different races to marry."
and talked about Thailand's system. The black bit was totally unnecessary, and the single payer plan is not what is being discussed. To even bring that up, is suggesting that the present ACA is nothing more than a Trojan Horse, which is STILL deception.

My points were aimed at, if it's a Democracy, then just bring up an honest bill that is actually read by the people voting on it. If not, then those people should be removed from office, even prosecuted if need be for fraud and dereliction of duty. If this issue wasn't so polarised along party lines and stood on its own merits perhaps it wouldn't have been so divisive and gained bi-partisan support. But as it is, and how it was handled look what has happened.

Remember that I did not tear apart the bill or even criticise it. My objection was the dishonesty about its presentation and the way it was passed without even being read!
Those are legitimate concerns AND now left it vulnerable to being repealed and Democrats not being re-elected, plus grounds for impeachment of your President! Doesn't that concern you? You go on acting as if there is no momentum rising against your party.

Maybe a frank discussion about those possibilities as a result of 'Obama Care' in light of its poor showing in the numbers today plus the President's disapproval rating plummeting as a result of the very issues I've brought up might be in order. Instead you choose to 'lecture' me(or try) and I'm not your enemy nor opposition!

the only enemy you have is the lies and repercussions resulting from them revolving around this issue.
It might help to not keep repeating them or justifying them.
There is big trouble on the horizon!

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 11:07 PM

That's pretty funny, coming from somebody with blisters on his butt!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 10:53 PM

Obama wins Pants on Fire liar's award

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 05:00 PM

What the hell do you WANT, Nobody!??

I have answered your question and if you can't see it--well, that's your problem, not mine.

I know enough about the contents of your hypothetical crate to have made my decision, as is also the case with a large number of other people. It would appear that it is YOUR knowledge that is deficient.

And I KNOW that it's not a single payer plan, but it is possibly a step in the right direction.

I suggest (since we're indulging in analogies) that you get YOUR ducks in a row before you start shooting at mine!

Don Firth

(Try to be civil, Firth, even if it appears that Nobody is trying to be deliberately provocative.)

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 04:45 PM

The closest to responding to my prior post was sciencegeek. The rest of you are doing fancy avoidance of the subject. Mr. Firth has presented yet another crate. The ACA is NOT being presented as a 'single payer plan'. So that introduction of yet another plan is just more of the same misrepresentation that we are talking about. Are you all incapable of sticking to the subject with any continuity?

Please try.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,GUEST Qute particular!
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 04:03 PM

The punch line for half assed outsiders is this.

Show one attempt by any Repub administration in the last forty years to provide ANY health care that Joe Public can afford.

Nada! So who's a sheep now?

Qp

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 04:01 PM

what "issues".... you presented some "speaking points" that are based on your assumptions and disregard for political realities that many Americans are already well too aware of.

Were you expecting a pat on the back and choruses of Hallelujah! You've revealed the light to us poor sinners? Get over yourself, we sure have.

Life is messy... and this issue is as messy as it gets already. You have offered nothing of substance with a side order of snide remarks.
We already have Cruz and the rest of those idiots for that. You are a broken record in love with your own "voice". Americans are fellow members of the flawed human race... there's a very good reason why the founding fathers set up a system of checks and balances... if you need to admire anyone, admire them.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM

Where your analogy breaks down, Nobody, is that I have a good idea as to what's in the crate. Others have bought it, too, and they tell me that it's a good deal. The analogy also breaks down in that this is NOT the way the ACA has been presented--despite Songwronger and a bunch of Right Wing websites.

Nobody, a little research dissipates the mists.

Satisfied? Or do we milk it some more?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:22 PM

Other than long winded excuses and admonitions, nobody addressed the main issues of my post. So I'll post it again:


First, i'm pleased to see this thread has taken a more civil tone in the discussion.

Second, I would like to point out that the point of departure is this:
Sometimes it takes the vision through the eyes of a 'foreigner' to assist those to be able to get focus.
Your country, to whom the rest of of the world has looked up to, and turned to in need of help during perilous times was based on this 'experiment' called Democracy. Your country has been a bastion of Democracy as well as an example of what it can achieve to the rest of the world. You have fought massive wars to defend not only your Democracy, but to give other nations the chance for the same freedoms which have made you so strong and a wonderful place to live or visit.

Third, Your country which fought against incredible odds of succeeding, to have this Democratic system in which the citizens would be able to have self governing by means of the voting and electoral process.

Fourth, it then becomes incumbent for both the citizens and their elected representatives to be informed of various issues so that coherent decisions could be made as to how they should decide how to vote, according to how they see fit.

Fifth, The people who you vote for take an oath to uphold your Constitution as to best serve the people and the values on which your country came about.

Sixth, The point of departure comes when your Congress in both Houses are given issues to vote upon, and in violation of their legal and moral obligation to the people they represent, they do NOT read what they are voting on. While this has gone on, your President proceeds to misrepresent the contents of a bill(any bill) to the citizenry and the vote is passed under coercion and ex-emptive favours to garner their vote. This is done along party lines and not inclusive as the country, as a whole.

Seventh, Regardless of the goodwill of the intentions it was passed in violation of the trust that the elected Representatives would uphold their oath and at least READ the bill. This is NOT representative government of the people under rule of law.

Eighth, As a result of this your country is divided. Not so much over the issue that I just laid out, but under partisan lines. To all those who voted for and passed a bill in which they did not read, or even know what was in it, they should at least NOT be re-elected if not removed from office for dereliction of the duties of office, as possibly face charges of
treason(look at def. 1. and 2.) . In that definition you see the word 'treachery' and it is a link. 'Treachery', while not particularly a criminal charge, is also defined as a 'violation of trust'.

Ninth, and finally this bill was passed with nobody knowing what was in it except for those pushing it for THEIR self interests. In doing so they have pitted citizen against citizen, party against party, and the will of the common man be damned.
Imagine a delivery truck pulls into your driveways, drops off a crate and demands payment.
You ask, "What is it?' he doesn't know but demands payment or the shippers will put a lien on your home.
You look at the tag and call the shipper and ask him the same question
He tells you, "Just take it and pay for it. You won't be discomforted in the least and it will not disrupt your present lifestyle, in fact it will make it better."
Then you ask, "Well what is it?"
He replies, "Just take it, I'm not telling you but you will like it, PERIOD!"


Would you believe or trust this? Would you be eager to PAY for it? Pay for it under the threat of a lien on your home??
Chances are, the first thing you would do is call the police and demand action!!!

Now to all those on here who are vacantly repeating the President's 'assurances', you DO NOT know what is in the box(bill). You are just vacantly repeating what you've heard under the assumptions that it is consistent with a political ideal you MAY(?) have. You DON'T KNOW, and it has been withheld from you to know for sure!

Yet with such self assuredness you babble on and demean those who beg to differ.
In some cases, even condescendingly 'Pontificate' down your noses, when you don't even really know.

Do you?

Only what you've heard.

Do you???

*************************************************************8

Mr. Firth, you started, "Regarding your delivery truck analogy:"

And never addressed it. I'll be polite and give you a second go at it.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:43 PM

I pulled this from my own health insurance website:

As of January 1, 2013, the Empire Plan Medical/Surgical Program became self-insured by the NYS Department of Civil Service (DCS), with certain claim processing and other administrative services provided by UnitedHealthcare under an administrative services contract arrangement between DCS and UnitedHealthcare. This arrangement eliminates the Plan's exposure to certain taxes/fees charged under the Affordable Care Act in 2014 as well as State premium tax liabilities in 2013. Savings achieved by this funding arrangement are expected to result in a premium "surplus" at the end of 2013.

So thanks to changes made by my insurance carrier to deal with the new standards & requirements of the ACA, there should be a surplus at the end of the year... and hopefully reduced premium costs for 2014.

So here is an example of the ACA achieving its goal of making health insurance more streamlined and less wasteful of our money.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:27 PM

Nobody, I don't think you've been around long enough to know me very well. Most of the old-timers here will agree, I think, that I am characteristically polite and civil even in discussions with someone with whom I disagree. I generally do not lose my civility until the same person showers me repeatedly with gross personal insults.

Songwronger, for example. Whenever I disagree with him (which is most of the time), he tries to imply that I am too stupid or ignorant to understand the subject he is discussing, even when I am something of an expert on the subject. Rather than addressing my points of disagreement, he resorts to personal abuse.

==========

Regarding your delivery truck analogy:

Most people pretty much know what the Affordable Care Act is about and what it does. There are a few wrinkles to be ironed out, teething problems, if you will, but this is the case with any new and far-reaching bill. They ARE being addressed by President Obama.

There is a great deal of material out there simply telling lies about what the ACA will and will not do—especially what it will not do—by those who are opposed to ANY form of government supported health care. Republicans, "Tea Party" proponents, Libertarians, and anyone else for whom anything government sponsored and not pure "Free Enterprise Capitalism" is "Socialism" or "Communism."

Or "Fascism," about which Benito Mussolini said consists of a system in which the government and the corporations act as the same. He pointed to the "Fasces," from which Fascism gets its name:   a bundle of sticks tied around a battle ax (illustration). "The sticks," said Mussolini, "represent the corporations and the ax represents the power of government. The two act as one entity."

Benito Mussolini, I think you will agree, was something of an expert on the subject.

And MY worry is that following the Right Wing path in this country is taking us down the road to Fascism.

NOT Socialism. And certainly not Communism, although both Fascism and Communism operate essentially as a dictatorship.

The fact that the United States is one of the few countries in the world that does NOT have a single payer health care system for its citizens is the shame of the entire nation.

Any and all attempts to move toward this kind of system in the U. S. has been vociferously—downright savagely—opposed by arch-conservative forces every time the subject has come up.

Who are the opponents? Largely health insurance companies who want to write their own ticket, and some health care providers that would rather let people die if they can't pay their exorbitant charges. There are the real "Death Panels" that Sarah Palin warned about. How, I ask, can European or American trained doctors in Thailand perform the same procedures for a quarter of what they would cost in the U. S.?

AND—people like Songwronger, who obviously hate President Obama for reasons that are open to speculation. In many cases it's because he's a Democrat and, to them, anything a Democrat proposes is to be opposed—and in a high percentage of cases, particularly in certain parts of the country, the opposition is for no reason other than that Barack Obama is a black man.

Mixed race, actually, but in the parts of the country of which I speak, many people consider any mixing of races "against God and Nature." For example, to them, an "octaroon" (someone who is one-eight Black) is a "nigger." And is regarded as sub-human. Until remarkably recently, in these states it was illegal for two people of different races to marry.

Those, Nobody, are the ugly FACTS behind this dispute over health care.

Note:   I have a wide number of friends, relatives, and acquaintances and none of those I have talked to about this matter say that they will have to change their current doctor or health insurance. And I have checked with my doctor and my insurance company and they both assure me that I need to do nothing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:04 PM

ROTFLMAO....

Nobody... welcome to American politics... did you ACTUALLY believe that Congress reads & understands even a fraction of the bills that come out to a vote?!? Most of them get their marching orders from the Party bosses, and now from splinter groups on how to vote... it is the rare individual who actually pays attention and votes for the common good of the country or else their conscience.

That's how crap gets snuck in at the last minute... SOP. You really need to read up on American political history... we mostly have "professional" politicians in office, not citizens who are fulfilling their civic duty. Term limits and getting rid of the Citizen's United decision would be a good start to returning government back to a more democratic institution.

It's not really funny, but as long as the majority of voters act like mindless sheep, it's what we get.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 12:00 PM

First, i'm pleased to see this thread has taken a more civil tone in the discussion.

Second, I would like to point out that the point of departure is this:
Sometimes it takes the vision through the eyes of a 'foreigner' to assist those to be able to get focus.
Your country, to whom the rest of of the world has looked up to, and turned to in need of help during perilous times was based on this 'experiment' called Democracy. Your country has been a bastion of Democracy as well as an example of what it can achieve to the rest of the world. You have fought massive wars to defend not only your Democracy, but to give other nations the chance for the same freedoms which have made you so strong and a wonderful place to live or visit.

Third, Your country which fought against incredible odds of succeeding, to have this Democratic system in which the citizens would be able to have self governing by means of the voting and electoral process.

Fourth, it then becomes incumbent for both the citizens and their elected representatives to be informed of various issues so that coherent decisions could be made as to how they should decide how to vote, according to how they see fit.

Fifth, The people who you vote for take an oath to uphold your Constitution as to best serve the people and the values on which your country came about.

Sixth, The point of departure comes when your Congress in both Houses are given issues to vote upon, and in violation of their legal and moral obligation to the people they represent, they do NOT read what they are voting on. While this has gone on, your President proceeds to misrepresent the contents of a bill(any bill) to the citizenry and the vote is passed under coercion and ex-emptive favours to garner their vote. This is done along party lines and not inclusive as the country, as a whole.

Seventh, Regardless of the goodwill of the intentions it was passed in violation of the trust that the elected Representatives would uphold their oath and at least READ the bill. This is NOT representative government of the people under rule of law.

Eighth, As a result of this your country is divided. Not so much over the issue that I just laid out, but under partisan lines. To all those who voted for and passed a bill in which they did not read, or even know what was in it, they should at least NOT be re-elected if not removed from office for dereliction of the duties of office, as possibly face charges of
treason(look at def. 1. and 2.) . In that definition you see the word 'treachery' and it is a link. 'Treachery', while not particularly a criminal charge, is also defined as a 'violation of trust'.

Ninth, and finally this bill was passed with nobody knowing what was in it except for those pushing it for THEIR self interests. In doing so they have pitted citizen against citizen, party against party, and the will of the common man be damned.
Imagine a delivery truck pulls into your driveways, drops off a crate and demands payment.
You ask, "What is it?' he doesn't know but demands payment or the shippers will put a lien on your home.
You look at the tag and call the shipper and ask him the same question
He tells you, "Just take it and pay for it. You won't be discomforted in the least and it will not disrupt your present lifestyle, in fact it will make it better."
Then you ask, "Well what is it?"
He replies, "Just take it, I'm not telling you but you will like it, PERIOD!"


Would you believe or trust this? Would you be eager to PAY for it? Pay for it under the threat of a lien on your home??
Chances are, the first thing you would do is call the police and demand action!!!

Now to all those on here who are vacantly repeating the President's 'assurances', you DO NOT know what is in the box(bill). You are just vacantly repeating what you've heard under the assumptions that it is consistent with a political ideal you MAY(?) have. You DON'T KNOW, and it has been withheld from you to know for sure!

Yet with such self assuredness you babble on and demean those who beg to differ.
In some cases, even condescendingly 'Pontificate' down your noses, when you don't even really know.

Do you?

Only what you've heard.

Do you???

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 08:45 AM

and what the Wronger keeps mum about is the fact that those states which participate in the ACA are up and running just fine, since they don't have such a huge number of folks to accomodate.

SO.. if the other 33 states had signed up, the feds wouldn't have such a huge number of folks trying to get online at once. duh...

and now the Republicans are trying every tactic to keep sabotaging the system... yeah, these folks sure give a d*amn about their fellow Americans...

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 03:25 AM

It is WORKING

Twelve percent of Vermont have already signed up ...(as Vermont goes so goes the nation.


washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/11/11/states-have-hit-3-percent-of-obamacare-sign-up-goals-thats-actually-not-a-disaster/

(Why are you so bitter?)

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:46 AM

I may have been too subtle for you, Wringer. I hope you got my implication: I would pay only what I could. Leaving the rest for you to pick up. OK? :)

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 02:30 AM

"I hope both of you end up broken under the weight of medical expenses." Wringer

The joke's on you, my good man. We don't have poor farms any more nor do we go to prison for not paying bills.

If worse came to worst and the Medicare system totally broke down while I was suffering catastrophic illness, guess what? I Would pay only what I could.

naaah naaaah naaah naaaaah

(I agree with Don Firth though: you are a REALLY sweet man.)

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 01:45 AM

You're just a real sweet guy, Songwronger.

There's an old French saying:   honi soit qui mal y pense.

"Evil to him who evil thinks."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 01:05 AM

Obama lied. You must accept this one simple truism in order to heal your shattered world. Obama is human. That halo over his head is just a big smoke ring from his crack pipe. Begin the healing. Accept the truism--liars lie, and Obama lied, therefore he is a liar.

Or don't accept the truth. Don't take this wrong, but I hope you lose everything you have to your false belief in Obama's honesty. Ebbie, too. I hope both of you end up broken under the weight of medical expenses. Nothing personal, but Obama and his insurance company pals now expect a HEFTY pound of flesh from Americans, and it is only fitting that it come from the people who've enabled this situation to come about. Seriously, nothing personal, but someone is going to have to pay, and I hope it's Obama's supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Nov 13 - 12:00 AM

President Obama mentioned "minimum requirements" repeatedly.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 11:45 PM

Some people will never admit to Obama's lie, NiP. They've been brainwashed. Obama's on video endlessly saying "You like it, you keep it," and if that can't penetrate the daze then nothing can. All you can do is pity the fools who fell in love with Obama, to paraphrase Bobby Blue Bland.

I pity the fool
Yes I pity the fool
Oh I pity the fool
I said I pity the fool
That falls in love with you
And expects you to be true
Oh I pity the fool

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 10:54 PM

Add this to it.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Noboody in Particular
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 10:16 PM

"So the most he is guilty of is "over-simplifying." He should have explained that if your current plan fails to meet the minimum requirements" of the Affordable Care Act, you will have to make changes."

Your President said, "If you like your health. care plan you can keep it. PERIOD."

Your President did not say, "If you like your health care plan you can keep it. ASTERISK!."

"If you like your doctor you can keep him."

Not, "If you like your doctor you can keep him unless we think he is getting his money from what we will call a 'substandard policy'.

You are 'twisting' Mr. Firth. Twisting is a form of exaggerating.
Exaggerating is a polite way of saying 'lying'.

And all this to avoid apologising for your bit in it.

Next they'll be saying that your government will be subsidising the increases, just to 'twist'(lie) their way out of being caught lying.
Look, I have socialised medicine as I told you before. It has its good points and its problems and I called on some of you to make suggestions. I made one, being familiar with it. You have made none. Then you proceed to insult people or try to discredit them when truthfully you have done more to discredit yourself than anybody you see as your detractors.

How many times are you going to say "Good Bye!"?
But you are caught between your false pride and your arrogance.
This is not a 'personal attack', merely the stating of the obviously apparent truth, as told by you!(as if that is possible).

Pontiffs just can't admit a mistake, so it must be the fault of everybody else, right?

But don't take it too hard, at least I replied, after all it's all about you!
(and off the indefensible obvious lying).

"But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?"

Do they? .

Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:49 PM

From the above link:

The health care law also sets minimum standards for insurance coverage, requiring that all health plans cover mental health benefits, prescription drug coverage, vaccinations, dental and vision care for children, maternity care for women, and more. The upgrades mean that some plans that were inexpensive for purchasers — but didn't cover the required benefits — would eventually cease to exist.

Americans who purchase such plans on the individual insurance market have been receiving notices that their current plans will no longer be offered after this year, as several news organizations reported in October. Those notices make it clear that Obama was over-simplifying and over-promising when he kept saying, "if you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan."

So the most he is guilty of is "over-simplifying." He should have explained that if your current plan fails to meet the minimum requirements" of the Affordable Care Act, you will have to make changes.

Which any thinking person should do anyway, ACA or not!

And that is from the link that you posted yourself, Nobody, so take your personal insults and stuff them were the sun doesn't shine!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:18 PM

I will sign up for this Obamacare thing too if I can get free beer, smokes, and grass. Where do I sign up?

- Shane

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:08 PM

"Wringer, Obama didn't get "caught" lying. If you can call it a lie, I can't imagine a more public way to do it."

You say he 'didn't get caught lying'?? coupled with, I can't imagine a more public way to do it."

Did you mean to say, "I can't imagine a more public way to have gotten caught lying?"

Oh, he got caught alright, but like Mr.Firth, he's too much of a proud, lying coward to admit it. Not only did he lie, he knew about it beforehand, and so did many of his staff. That is not even really up for debate. See my last post to Mr. Firth and click on the link.

To top it off, Mr. Firth, in his 'Swan Song' goes as far as this banal foolishness, "
Nobody, you and Songwronger are both terminally ignorant. Trying to discuss anything with either of you is a complete waste of time.
Good bye"

What he CAN'T do, is show us WHERE I was wrong and couple it with a verifiable source of the truth of it! No, instead he makes another false accusation(slanderous lie), and runs off to hide just as cowards do.

If he had any balls he'd apologise, but he has none, only dopey followers who come out afterwards and make feeble statements that are totally ridiculous.

Here it is again. Read all of it. What don't you understand?

"But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?"


Do they? .


Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 10:29 AM

your naivety is astounding.

But nowhere as astounding as the depths of its stupidity.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 02:37 AM

Wringer, Obama didn't get "caught" lying. If you can call it a lie, I can't imagine a more public way to do it. Didja think no one would notice? If so, your naivety is astounding.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 12 Nov 13 - 12:50 AM

The fraud article mentions Obama's crime being orders of magnitude greater than others that are prosecuted by the Justice Department nowadays. Nixon resigned after he got caught lying about a break-in, and Obama just got caught lying while he cheated a hundred million Americans out of their insurance.

The establishment (Democrat/Republican) won't impeach him because it needs a stable base of evenly distributed partisanship--half Dem, half Rep. So even though Obama could be charged by the House and possibly impeached by the Senate, nothing will be done.

The loss of insurance policies will be under-reported now. A thousand here, 900 there. They'll add up month by month but the government-controlled media will put a happy face on it and tell you not to question. Then Obama will leave office with his tens of millions of uninsured, and we'll get five years easy of blaming him for "that damned website" and Obama's "incompetence."

It's all a scam.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 11:07 PM

Nobody, you and Songwronger are both terminally ignorant. Trying to discuss anything with either of you is a complete waste of time.

Good bye.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 09:52 PM

Mr Firth, no matter how many times you repeat the same lie it doesn't make it any more true. That said, haven't you noticed that the numbers of this thread are shrinking to just a couple of your very cautious 'fans'? The only ploy you use is to make this a running insult-fest. Your ploy tries to persuade people that they are some sort of ignoramus. I know the difference of Fascism and Communism, or lack of difference, at all.

You are the one who says that we don't live in a civilised society.
Maybe that's true for those who don't live in a civilised society. Maybe YOU don't live in a civilised society or world. Perhaps you should join that part of the world what IS civilised. First step is to stop lying and stop manipulating. After all, that's what people in an uncivilised society do. In a civilised society people apologise when finding themselves at fault. Your lies and misstatements are offensive to us who live civilly.

You claim not to see it.

No wonder!

Just in case you haven't noticed, people in a civilised society can talk to each other civilly when there are differing opinions.

You don't seem to exhibit any ability to do that by sticking to the actual subject .being discussed

In a civilised society they have asylums for those who cannot abide by the ability to stay within the norms of civility.

That said, the only thing that I've suggested was to open a CIVIL discussion about making any constructive ideas as how to improve the ACA without attacking the law as a whole, nor the President, other than his misrepresenting the law by lying.

Both of you should apologise and correct the error.

But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?


Do you? .
comments, too!

Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 09:13 PM

A good piece. Too true, I'm afraid, regarding the issue of impeachment:

Obama's Massive Fraud

...Barack Obama is guilty of fraud — serial fraud — that is orders of magnitude more serious than frauds the Justice Department routinely prosecutes, and that courts punish harshly. The victims will be out billions of dollars, quite apart from other anxiety and disruption that will befall them.

The president will not be prosecuted, of course, but that is immaterial. As discussed here before, the remedy for profound presidential corruption is political, not legal. It is impeachment and removal. "High crimes and misdemeanors" — the Constitution's predicate for impeachment — need not be indictable offenses under the criminal code. "They relate chiefly," Hamilton explained in Federalist No. 65, "to injuries done immediately to the society itself." They involve scandalous breaches of the public trust by officials in whom solemn fiduciary duties are reposed — like a president who looks Americans in the eye and declares, repeatedly, that they can keep their health insurance plans . . . even as he studiously orchestrates the regulatory termination of those plans; even as he shifts blame to the insurance companies for his malfeasance — just as he shifted blame to a hapless video producer for his shocking dereliction of duty during the Benghazi massacre.

It is highly unlikely that Barack Obama will ever be impeached. It is certain that he will never again be trusted. Republicans and sensible Democrats take heed: The nation may not have the stomach to remove a charlatan, but the nation knows he is a charlatan. The American people will not think twice about taking out their frustration and mounting anger on those who collaborate in his schemes.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/363538/obamas-massive-fraud-andrew-c-mccarthy/page/0/1#!

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM

Stupid! Trying to discuss much of anything with you two bozos is a complete waste of time.

As to the state of my insurance, I will take the word of my doctor and the clinic's bookkeeper--AND the AARP--over you any day.

Civilized countries have single payer health care systems. This is what President Obama was--is--trying to achieve, but is being stonewalled by a bunch of Fascists calling themselves "Republicans." Cheered on by simpletons such as you!

Apologize to you? There will be pork in the treetops when that happens.

Over and out!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 12:45 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T, I have not criticised Mr. Obama other than pointing out that he did lie to the American people, in regards to the ACA. That isn't an anti-black comment aimed at the President. It wasn't a 'white lie' either.

Mr Firth, no matter how many times you repeat the same lie it doesn't make it any more true. That said, haven't you noticed that the numbers of this thread are shrinking to just a couple of your very cautious 'fans'? The only ploy you use is to make this a running insult-fest. Your ploy tries to persuade people that they are some sort of ignoramus. I know the difference of Fascism and Communism, or lack of difference, at all.

You are the one who says that we don't live in a civilised society.
Maybe that's true for those who don't live in a civilised society. Maybe YOU don't live in a civilised society or world. Perhaps you should join that part of the world what IS civilised. First step is to stop lying and stop manipulating. After all, that's what people in an uncivilised society do. In a civilised society people apologise when finding themselves at fault. Your lies and misstatements are offensive to us who live civilly.

You claim not to see it.

No wonder!

Just in case you haven't noticed, people in a civilised society can talk to each other civilly when there are differing opinions.

You don't seem to exhibit any ability to do that by sticking to the actual subject .being discussed

In a civilised society they have asylums for those who cannot abide by the ability to stay within the norms of civility.

That said, the only thing that I've suggested was to open a CIVIL discussion about making any constructive ideas as how to improve the ACA without attacking the law as a whole, nor the President, other than his misrepresenting the law by lying.

Both of you should apologise and correct the error.

But then 'Pontiffs' are 'infallible' and don't see themselves as ever needing to apologise for anything, do they?

Do you?

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM

I'm grateful to you Nobody.

You have been talking down my comments about attitudes to the less fortunate in the good old US of A, and then you were kind enough to post a link to an NBC page featuring viewers comments. About four post in was the following, from a twelfth century mind in a twenty first century body calling itself Steve:

""The bottom line is everyone needs to be financially responsible for their own costs - yes it is expensive, but i don't want to pay for your care.

I would like to agree with you when you get these people that are taking WELFARE to live up to thier financial responsibility then you can preach tothe rest of the world to do the same thing. Till you get these leaches off my back, enjoy the bumpy ride.""

Ignorant, stupid, greedy, self centred, totally lacking in empathy or sympathy and in all probability obese from overeating.

The perfect modern American.

The world's number one consumers, using five times more of the world's finite resources than anybody else, and adamantine in refusing to help their less fortunate sick, disabled, poor and uneducated fellow countrymen.

The vast majority, Obama hating anti black Republicans, who have the immortal gall to call themselves Christians.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Nov 13 - 08:52 AM

""One more thing.. In your estimation, do you believe that the ACA is a step toward Fascism? or Communism?""

The genuine socialists (small s) who founded the NHS are probably spinning in their graves and either fuming or laughing hysterically at the though of being compared to either.

And the ACA is a smll, laboured and very much hindered step toward what they achieved.

So NO! TO BOTH! It is a step toward giving a damn about your fellow man for Americans, and will be swiftly and ruthlessly reversed if the Republican Naz....er...nasties win the next election.

A genuine win for the Democrats will see more steps and maybe even complete the journey.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:53 PM

This is just a culling. No big deal, right? The planet has too many people, right? We need an extinction event, and Obama's been kind enough to give us one. Liberals believe in population reduction and the aborting of the young, and here we have the aborting of the old and infirm. This is a GOOD thing, to the liberal mind. Good for Gaia and all that. Be happy in your deaths. Obama has blessed you with a way to serve the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:45 PM

OK. The one-paragraph version, for Mr. Firth:

Section 1251 of the Affordable Care Act contains what's called a "grandfather" provision that, in theory, allows people to keep their existing plans if they like them. But SUBSEQUENT REGULATIONS FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION interpreted that provision so narrowly as to prevent most plans from gaining this protection.

Obama made changes to Obamacare, then he pretended the old rules were still in effect. That's called a lie. Obama lies, people die.

Why Is This Leukemia Patient Losing His Insurance?

Who Is Edie Littlefield Sundby, The Stage 4 Cancer Patient Losing Her Insurance Coverage Under Obamacare?

Brush off your resume, Mr. Firth. You might need to pick up a job or two if you want to continue your insurance. Maybe WalMart is hiring baggers.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:38 PM

You two are both either liars or are hopelessly bewildered. I am not going to try to answer your slanderous charges, but I invite others to read both sides and see for themselves who it is that is full of—prunes.

In the meantime, if you two bozos can actually focus your eyes and have at least a rudimentary grasp of plain English, Google "Difference between Fascism and Communism." There is a wealth of authoritative material there.

READ IT!!!

Over and out!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Songwronger
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:19 PM

OK. From Forbes magazine:

Obama Officials In 2010: 93 Million Americans Will Be Unable To Keep Their Health Plans Under Obamacare

Section 1251 of the Affordable Care Act contains what's called a "grandfather" provision that, in theory, allows people to keep their existing plans if they like them. But SUBSEQUENT REGULATIONS FROM THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION interpreted that provision so narrowly as to prevent most plans from gaining this protection.

"The Departments' mid-range estimate is that 66 percent of small employer plans and 45 percent of large employer plans will relinquish their grandfather status by the end of 2013," wrote the administration on page 34,552 of the Register. All in all, more than half of employer-sponsored plans will lose their "grandfather status" and become illegal. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 156 million Americans—more than half the population—was covered by employer-sponsored insurance in 2013....

...President Obama's famous promise that "you could keep your plan" was not some naïve error or accident. He, and his allies, knew that previous Democratic attempts at health reform had failed because Americans were happy with the coverage they had, and opposed efforts to change the existing system.

Now, supporters of the law are offering a different argument. "We didn't really mean it when we said you could keep your plan," they say, "but it doesn't matter, because the coverage you're going to get under Obamacare will be better than the coverage you had before."

But that's not true. Obamacare forces insurers to offer services that most Americans don't need, don't want, and won't use, for a higher price....

http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/10/31/obama-officials-in-2010-93-million-americans-will-be-unable-to-keep-their-h

So, Obamacare was signed into law. Section 1251 of the law allowed for keeping health insurance plans. But then Obama went to work narrowing the scope of the clause, while he told the people that nothing had changed. "If you like your plan, you can keep your plan. Period." He is a liar. And his lie will lead to untold numbers of dead. He is a murderer. He needs to be held accountable.

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: GUEST,Nobody in Particular
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 09:11 PM

"Nobody" has managed to live in the real world without ever having made a statement in good faith, but which was made untrue by others moving the goalposts?
Do you want to re-think that?
But it would explain his inability to even consider the possibility that it could indeed happen, even to a President, possibly especially to a President, given the "block everything" mindset of his opponents.

As to Mr. Firth, I am not Songwronger. Remember? You accused me of being that person when you were making no progress with your justify other liars, besides yourself. Now you twist it again and now you're saying I'm Gust from Sanity. You said I was praising that person. Where? You just made that up.

The only time I even mentioned that person was to say that there were some things that I didn't agree with, as well as Songwronger.

Do you do this all the time? No wonder you have a history, as you said, that goes back years with people.

You are simply not believable.

As so far as, "The ACA is, per se, NOT a step in either direction. In fact, Fascism and Communism are not that different. Any apparent differences are only superficial.

Learn some political science, and the definitions of political terms, such as Fascism and Communism."

What on earth made you think that I thought they were that far apart? Because I asked that question??? Then you go onto assuming that I didn't know that??

Just another ploy to pontificate, by you?

Obama lied. You lied. I don't believe either one of you. Neither should anyone else!

Subject: RE: BS: So who's signed up for Obamacare?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 08:51 PM

Songwronger:   "Obama's a totalitarian. Marxist roots, doing business with fascists. A totalitarian's a totalitarian. At the end of the day, who was worse, Stalin or Hitler?. Totalitarians hate individuals, too. That's what amazes me most about Democrats, that they think they "care" about people while supporting these programs that devastate individuals. Pat Buchanan said today that there will be guillotines on Farragut Square (near the white house) if 76 million Americans actually do lose their insurance to Obamacare. I hope they give Obama a trial before they drop the blade, so we'll OK on the legal front."

That's right up there with your "Food Riots on November 1st" thread.

Pure, unadulterated bollocks.

I'm not the one who is confused. You are.

==========

I've already answered the matter of "Obama lied about the ACA." If you didn't like the answer, the problem is yours, not mine. Explaining what he wants the plan to do before Congress starts gutting the plan does not mean that President Obama is lying, it means that Congress is a bunch of obstructionist soreheads.

Educate yourself (if you possess the intellectual capacity!!):

CLICKY.

Don Firth