Criticism at singarounds

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 02:30 PM

I suppose I was lucky - from being about eight years old - I went to quaker prayer meetings and I got used to being tolerant of all kinds of people giving their testimony. it was only when I got to be a snotty teenager, I stopped listening and tolerating,

To Jim Carroll - the saying that sustained me through many a dull sunday morning in Spalding quaker meeting house was from the sermon on the mount = matthew 6 judge not less ye be judged.

in the final analysis - what bloody difference can it possibly make if a person sings well or badly. people need to sing. sometimes a really technically lousy singer can teach you how a song should be sung.

when you get down to it. that's why hardly any people listen to folk music. they hear Carthy or one of his disciples and they are intolerant of something that doesn't sound like the x factor army. when we make so many demands on the public to adjust their ears to our music - we must lead by example, and try to tolerate those that come by chance into our tent.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:10 PM

When I said Singarounds are for practice , I really meant singing a song 'out' a few times before a paid gig situation . Apologies for not making that clear

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:16 PM

Thanks Al Whittle, I've been reading this thread with interest and kept trying to reply but I couldn't find the right words but you've said it for me.We all have the need and the right to sing but people are too shy or embarrassed. If you can't say anything good then don't say anything. Ours is the music of ordinary,working,thinking,caring,people and we all have something to contribute.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM

I'll go along with Al, as well.

Though it does irk me when those who should know better settle for less... but then they also don't seem to want to change/improve.

There is no pleasing everyone on this... not going to happen, but I'd rather be inclusive than exclusive... cause that's how things die out, otherwise.

I try to support "singing for non-singers" type workshops... help rather than ostracize ... not always easy

which reminds me... how'd it go with your pupil, Bobert?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Speedwell
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:30 PM

Yes I think Al has said many of the right things. Some singarounds can be a lot about tolerance, which may well be a good reminder for us all from time to time.
If a singer sings with a good heart and tries to do their best with the song who are we to judge?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 04:39 PM

I love singarounds. I don't care how bad any performer is. The fact that they are willing to stand/sit in front of others and give it a go is enough to get my attention.

Singarounds take me back to the old pre TV weekend evenings in the local pub, when Uncle Charlie would sing his war songs when pissed, Bert would do his Al Johnson impression, Annie would do her card trick, and Wally would sing his remarkable song about the depression in the 30s... if pressed with a couple of glasses of scotch.

Singarounds are about community. Who cares how good or bad the performances are?

I attend six singaround clubs in Yorkshire. Two I don't often miss. Two more I get to occasionally, and two I get to rarely, but they are all good because we all appreciate the effort of performing.

OK, so some of us have memory problems because we're getting old now, and we read the words. Others do the same old stuff over and over again. One or two give up half way through because it is all too much, but nevertheless they are damned good evenings that everyone enjoys.

Now and again a young person will get up and do something that they have been plucking up courage to do for weeks. It might be alien to us, but that is a real bonus. The concept goes on.

Singarounds serve a great function. They keep up the interest in performing song live.

To go back to the OP's question, I would suggest that 'criticism' should be interpreted as 'giving friendly advice'. Those of us who think we have achieved greatness can feel free and worthy of helping those who would achieve it, but on the other hand, why don't we all just relax and enjoy each others' efforts, no matter how unaccomplished?

Tone (Just starting another singaround in York, Tap & Spile, 2nd and 4th Sundays).

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:05 PM

"To go back to the OP's question, I would suggest that 'criticism' should be interpreted as 'giving friendly advice'"

Is it, though? If somebody's sailed through a song and got a good reception, is it 'friendly advice' to say "shame about that bit you screwed up"?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:16 PM

Part of the problem is soi-disant experts who are themselves abysmal and prefer the bad to the better. At least one person above is an excellent example.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: breezy
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:23 PM

Well saidc anal wheeler, couldn t agree

more

We should all be humbled and descend from our positions of high self esteem

So we'll all give York a miss as well.

Whatever became of the Lowther ?

Love to all

John

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 05:51 PM

"So we'll all give York a miss as well."

At least York welcomes buskers..................... as long as they buy a licence.

Unlike Camden.

Tune it in and weld it John.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:16 PM

Critics are like eunuchs in a harem. They know how it's done. They see it done every day. But they are unable to do it themselves. (Brendan Behan)

CC

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 06:58 PM

Has nobody else had the experience of being told (supportively) that they'd screwed up something they thought had gone fine? Is it just me? Well, me and the bloke in Will's session.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: MuddleC
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:39 PM

The think that got me singing was hearing a bloke 'marmalize' a favourite song of mine... I thought to myself...'hell, I could do better that that...' and the search for singarounds began.
I think that anyone who gets up and sings should be encouraged, ..if it is that bad... there is a reason singarounds are held in a pub..so youse can go to the bar!!
Sometimes I change key or time on purpose in order to stop an instrument accompanying me .. as I want my version unaccompanied in my style . However, If people want to join in any chorus, I will slow/follow their 'lead'. As I do not expect to get paid for my performance, I view the 'singaround' as a social event and not a concert, so if people want crib sheets/music/words then that's OK (Even Orchestras use sheet music), but it does have 'courtesy' rules though. I won't even attempt 'quiet' songs if people insist on talking through or if the overall noise level is too high as I don't get the enjoyment of singing them. Singing-out a song for the first time is fine to0, the acoustics of the bathroom are not the same as a pub, and you often find that the scan of the lines somehow changes before an audience, allowing tweaks before dragging it out again.#
Sometimes us singers have to sit through some pretty bad instrumental stuff too! -and not say a word!!! e.g. 'jazz'.............. I'll get my coat............

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Eldergirl
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 07:57 PM

I've often felt I hadn't sung a song as well as I could or should have, but on saying as much, have been told No, it was fine..
I'm my father's daughter; he was one of THE most critical people in the known universe when it came to musical competence, but he was a full time professional musician for most of his life. So I grew up being very much aware of the fact that we can all do better, not because he thought he was the best - he didn't - but because the MUSIC deserved better. (Although there was some music he'd cheerfully tear up for bog paper, but personal taste in music is up to the individual..)
So I might think critical thoughts about the bloke whose pitch goes lurching all round the houses, but I won't usually mention it, unless he does first, and sometimes not even then.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 08:34 PM

A singaround, IMO), is just that---not a rehearsal, not a pwerformance, juist people who like to sing singing. If anyone's offended by a perceived lack of quality, he can either live with it or just congregate elsewhere

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Susan of DT
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:07 PM

I find that selective praise can work well. Some years ago there was a new woman in a circle we attend, who sang unexciting songs in one narrow genre. Whenever she sang songs out of that genre I told her how much I had enjoyed them. She is now a REALLY good singer with a wide repertoire (the credit goes to her, of course).

And someone else in that circle has been using the technique on me to encourage something...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: MuddleC
Date: 23 Oct 13 - 09:33 PM

yes, Sue dt
There's a girl at my local session who can only be heard by bats (and fast ones at that), and after cajoling by me eventually sang it an octave or some large chunk of one lower... and slower. I explained that the notes were now more discernable and held better... the song became more melodious and pleasing to the ear as a result. We all try to get our songs over too quickly when unsure, and I find I sometimes start in the wrong key when trying to 'punch out' over the ambient noise. The Confidence to relax and start lower and slower only comes with practice in friendly sessions.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:55 AM

I've got several people who do feel comfortable enough to occassionally criticise aspects of my performance and I welcome it as I know they are trying to help and more often than not they are in praising mode. Don't have an issue with pitch but when playing and singing alone in public I tended to speed up during a song. Simply nerves. I've basically ironed that out now but if no-one had said anything or helped me!! Likewise I have a young female friend who has only been playing for about a couple of years. Wonderful voice but with some songs had real problems with the rhythm/time signatures. I helped her out with that getting her to listen to waht she was playing etc. She seemed to really appreciate it and she lets me know where she thinks my songs can be improved etc. I agree though that it is easy with friends. You'd expect friends to help you out.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Hesk
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 03:21 AM

CanalWheeler seems to sum up the spirit of the singaround, and at the same time capture that great feeling of friendship that makes the hobby so interesting.
Sometimes the comments on Mudcat seem to be about another pastime altogether, full of angst, and disrespect for the efforts of others.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 03:57 AM

"Ours is the music of ordinary,working,thinking,caring,people and we all have something to contribute."

Hhhhhmmmm! Where have I heard that before? Trouble is that that sort of platitude too often translates into low quality, "it's good enough for folk" music. And at far too many singarounds it's far too often the music of ordinary, lazy, unthinking people who couldn't give a shit about their fellow singaround attendees. And, no, I'm not talking about beginners or improvers or people with nerves or people who have occasional problems with pitching or forgetting the words. I'm talking about the oaf who turns up week after week after week, clutching his tattered notebook, and insists on droning and mumbling his way through an interminable 90 verse ballad!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:28 AM

I think the "scene" is more tolerant these days - from what I can see of it - than it was 50 years ago when I first performed at a folk club. If my memory isn't playing me false, there was fairly intense competition to get a floor spot and, if you weren't of a reasonable standard, you weren't given one again.

I recall playing as a comparative beginner at Leeds University Folk Club around 1964 or 1965. I didn't play very well. I thought I'd pulled it off and got by, only to be told in no uncertain terms by the club organiser at the end of the evening that I was "very lucky" - i.e. I had to up my game if I wanted another spot there at some future date. Some years later, when I ran the BBC Folk Club ("Clanfolk") for a spell, I certainly wasn't as in-your-face as the Leeds MC, but there was still a glut of floor-singers and the poorer performers got fewer chances to play, on the whole. I recall one evening, one of my fellow Clanfolk MCs introducing each floor spot with the words, "And now, ladies and gentlemen - yet another white, male, right-handed guitarist..." to the amusement of all concerned!

I think we're a little gentler now, though at the monthly Bull session in Ditchling referred to by Rob in his post above, if I'm called upon to sing something, Ian Chisholm (co-host) usually introduces me by saying, "Now for something entirely inappropriate." But we're old mates from Clanfolk days!

The best place to get good, honest criticism is to get together with one or two really good musicians and play together - either in a band situation or in the home - where you can be fairly free and open with each other and not get embarrassed. A singaround is probably not the ideal environment for that kind of critical exchange.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Psychomorris
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 04:42 AM

'Say kind words you will here kind echoes' It is obvious from the comments of some on this thread that they have never heard kind echoes.
It was kind words and encouragement from others that got me singing in the fist place and continues to encouraged me even now. My nerves get the better of me at times and forgetfulness goes with the nerves, hence the safety crib sheet. I enjoy all types of singers and muscians who 'give it a go'.I believe there is room for all levels. Reading here I believe some people maybe need to review why they go to a folk session at all. Allan C

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:04 AM

Allan - in my case, I was approached by somebody I don't know well (I've met them three or four times), after a song which I thought had gone well & which had been well received, and told I'd screwed it up. True, there was a recommendation with the criticism, but (assuming there was a problem) I don't believe it would actually have helped.

Part of what's bugging me about the whole episode is that I was too taken aback to say any of this at the time. Another part of it has to do with what Heck says. As it happens, I was feeling tired & low that evening, & I'd been in two minds about going out at all; I decided it would do me good because I'd enjoy the singing, but most of all because in a singaround you feel you're among friends - they're happy to see (and listen to) you and you're happy to see (and listen to) them.

Anyway, I've moaned on about this long enough. In future I'll do a Desiderata and find somebody else to sit next to.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:08 AM

@Will Fly "Now for something entirely inappropriate."

That caused me a titter.

One of our club hosts introduces me by saying, "And now for something very different."

I'm never quite sure what he means by that.

I play autoharp, not white right-handed guitar.

I sing songs from the 60s that nobody else sings any more, including my own.

I'm a generation older than most there.

People tell me that I still have a good voice, but they could be just being polite!

I sing in a southern accent, in Yorkshire.

I'm old and hairy and fat.

I quite often forget, not just the words, but what I'm singing and where I am.

And I have been known to take a hurried toilet break in the middle of one of my songs. (Soddin' prostate!) I've even written a song about that!

But nobody seems to mind.

I have occasionally woken up in the middle of a verse and thought, "My Gawd, it's quiet out there!" because everybody is listening. I guess that is the greatest accolade.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: BillE
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:14 AM

Breezy....

In the 1970's the Lowther in York became the York Folk Centre, and later ceased to be. The celebrated Black Swan Folk Club took up the slack and is still going strong.

Several Lowther residents are still active in the York area - Eborfiddler (Chris) and myself for example. Canalwheeler is an occasional visitor to our session at the Thompsons Arms at Flaxton.

Thoroughly support his take on the question, too.

Bill

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:15 AM

Shimrod - as I said above, I'm not interested in trotting out the "GEFF" hobbyhorse yet again; I think there are more useful discussions we could be having.

For example: if somebody's singing off-key, do you think it's a good idea for another singer in the singaround to go up to them and say "it's a shame you were singing off-key"?

Personally I think the shuffle & yawn, the polite ripple of applause and the mass exodus to the bar send all the signals that are needed - backed up, if it's absolutely necessary, by a quiet word from the organiser.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:16 AM

sorry to be dumb, but what's a soi disant expert, Poxicat? am I one?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:31 AM

You are if you say you are, Al!

One of our club hosts introduces me by saying, "And now for something very different."

A regular at Chorlton Folk Club used to read his own poems. For the club's second birthday he wrote a poem celebrating the club and its regulars, all of whom got a verse. It was a nice gesture, but as bad luck would have it hardly any of the people he namechecked had turned up that night. I was one of the few that heard 'their' verse. I was deeply flattered and never forgot it; here it is (for background, I had my hair in a plait down my back at the time.)

"And here's another unaccompanist,
Our old friend Pigtail Phil
If unusual music is your choice
Phil will fit the bill."

I was in a bit of a boundary-pushing phase at the time, doing unaccompanied versions of songs by Peter Blegvad and Robyn Hitchcock.

I'll reach your lungs like smoke in the orchard -
Scattered in bushes, the firemen laughing -
I'll wrap your hands in personal signals:
Don't come to me later. Come to me now.

Oddly enough nobody ever complained.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:32 AM

Al, it means self-appointed, e.g. Big Al Whittle is the soi disant wild child of English folk.
Cheers John

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:35 AM

soi-di•sant (swa diˈzɑ̃)

adj. French.
1. calling oneself thus; self-styled.
2. so-called or pretended.

Adj.        1.        soi-disant - as claimed by and for yourself often without justification; "the self-styled `doctor' has no degree of any kind"

Seek and ye shall find google... :-)

I think you are pretty self-styled, Al, but not pretend at all so you are only part way there!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Brakn
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:37 AM

I love watching and listening to "not so experienced" singers/players who have taken the time to learn the tune, chords and words of a song. People who give it a go. The most important thing is that they have made an EFFORT. It takes a lot of nerve to get up - I still get nervous.

What gets on my nerves are those that roll up week after week with their 6 inch thick folders that they've had for years. They never know beforehand what song they will sing; they just lay it on a music stand and let it flip open - voila! They've never bothered to actually learn one song but they have the cheek to ask you to join in the chorus! In the future I see a laptop with backing music and lyrics - karaoke.

Then there are the ones who take 5 minutes to tell everyone about their week/day/kids/journey/past life before they actually talk about the song they've written; fell in love, fell out of love, then fallen in love again. FFS. Then the tune up. Open tuned, very expensive, guitar - two fingers anywhere will give you a chord or a pleasant sounding dischord - five minute intro (which bares no relation to the "tune") - and then the lyrics. (Mountains, oceans, rivers, eternity) They ask you to join in the chorus, but there isn't one or even a discernable air. I won't go on.

The wise ones, the ones who know, have headed for the bar minutes earlier for they knew what was coming. The more polite ones sit and cringe and visitors are wondering is it worth coming back.

What positve criticism could you give? I like people who have made some effort. The guy with the book has taken the time to Google, cut and paste his chords/lyrics and the songwriter has taken the time to write his song. Maybe it's not all about effort hmmmm.
Am I too critical?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:52 AM

What positve criticism could you give?

"I love it when you feel people really know their songs, don't you?"

"What was that one you did last week - the one that had a tune?"

"I did like the bit where you SHUT UP AND GOT ON WITH THE F*CKING SONG..."

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Brakn
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 05:53 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:27 AM

its a bit like that folksong - we hope for something better by and by...was it Peggy and Ewan? or Ian and Lorna? used to sing it?

I think the key to it, is that you have to enjoy these people as people - rather than expert folksingers. I suppose if they are horrible offensive buggers - then you're in a bit of a mess. but as Winnie the Pooh said, most people are all right.

The anal retentive with his guitar tunings, the fussy old woman with his enormous ringbinder, the squeezebox merchant who takes off every summer to Brittany and Albania to bore the locals shitless with dance tunes no one dances to........the list is endless. they are there to be enjoyed....abit like the Pickwick club.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Deckman
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:00 AM

Even though I'm a million miles away from you across the pond, in the NW corner of America (Seattle area)I'm enjoying this thread greatly. I have two thoughts:

If it was my gig, hoot, jam, house, class, whatever ... sometime during a break,I might get that person to one side and say something like: "I really like that song you sang. How about if we get together next Sunday afternoon and I can teach you some more words." That might give me the opportunity to work with the person on other things, such as pitch, or whatever?

This thread reminds me of a situation that happened many years ago when I was teaching a guitar class at my local commuinity college. I sometimes would let a student or two end the class by performing a song. This one night, the fellow who performed was beyong awful ... he was simply terrible. After his presentation, being the teacher and trying to be postive, I spoke postive things about his song. I don't remember anything that I said, but the next week, I got many private compliments about how I handled it.

People are people ... we're NOT all perfect ... but it's fun when we try ... eh?! ... CHEERS ... bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:18 AM

All I said was "It's hard to listen to someone who can't carry a note with a co signer". That was an "I" comment, no more, no less.
I did not say, nor did I imply that someone should spoil their day by telling them what they probably already know.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:29 AM

"Allan - in my case......." Quite so there is a big difference between friends genuinely helping each other out and those who just criticise. I met a young guy after one session who had been in the bar and he said "were you singing in the pub tonight" and after I confirmed that I was he said "aye I thought so - you were crap".

Water of a duck's back and I just laughed it off. It depends on who is criticising (or perhaps giving advice) and in what manner they are doing it. Personally I would only ever say something to a friend - if at all.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:36 AM

"Reading here I believe some people maybe need to review why they go to a folk session at all. Allan C"

Sorry but I'm a bit baffled by that. All I said was friends will help each other out. Nothing negative about that. I go to enjoy the music but I also want to sing/play as well as I can - as do some others. I did receive help from various people who did encourage me but offered advice on how I could improve things too. I welcomed the advice. Didn't agree with every bit of advice but much of it did help.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:42 AM

I sang a Stan Rogers song with all my heart and soul. I felt that I'd sung it as well as I possibly could. I needed a darkened room to recover. Then someone said "Who is it who does a REALLY good version of that song"? I collapsed into hysterical laughter. It was so funny. How can anyone get a big head in a singaround?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: billybob
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 09:09 AM

When ever we see Dick Miles he always says" Wendy knew me when I couldn't sing" so its a good job we never told him 40 years ago,look at him now,
lots of love Dick x

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:34 AM

when I started singing, I knew I was,nt much good, and there were some [not at singarounds] who told me I should give up. I chose rather to work at it, and though it took years, I think I am in the position where no-one is critical [so far as I know] of my vocal.
maybe that's why I prefer to be charitable of others performance, hoping that they too are working on it.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:53 AM

I agree with Dick Greehaus. The purpose of a singaround is to share music not be a topflight performer. I admire anyone who has the nerve to sing in front of people because I personally know how hard it is. First of all, one who studies this kind of thing is usually their own harsh critic. It doesn't have to be amplified by some half-knowledgeable outsider. Any criticism I've received from someone who is not actively engaged in music or singing has never been valuable.

Only those with an ego-driven agenda would offer gratuitous criticism to anyone attempting to sing in public.

There are those other ego-driven amateurs that are pushy not knowing what they don't know who are hard to tolerate but any helpful criticism would be lost on them anyway.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Fyldeplayer
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 12:08 PM

Couple of years ago I attended interesting 'talk' by Brian Peters illustrated by a succession of 'old' recordings of source singers most of whom were poor singers (subjective opinion), but clearly had made a contribution to the 'folk' world. Listen to Justin Hayward drifting off the note in Nights in White Satin - still sold zillions!

Isn't it part of the folk charm? I find super sweet note perfect voices boring (SO).

Pitch is clearly not heard by everyone - witness the need for those damn digital tuners everwhere ( read Roger Bucknalls article on tuning on the Fylde site, very interesting. )

Sori - my point, don't make any comments.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:47 PM

"Only those with an ego-driven agenda would offer gratuitous criticism to anyone attempting to sing in public."

Just what the truth is I can't say any more... but I think this isn't far off!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:03 PM

Hmmm. I'm not so sure. Not saying you are wrong Craigie but maybe it is those with an ego-driven agenda that cannot accept honest criticism? I was not there. I don't know either of the protagonists but a good case can be made for both interpretations can it not?

Cheers

DtG
(AKA Devils advocate!)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:13 PM

" ... maybe it is those with an ego-driven agenda that cannot accept honest criticism?"

There's a great deal of truth in that!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:38 PM

I've come up with a fair and just solution to this whole dilemma:

A new singer turns up at a singaround, right? After three months the organiser, after discussing the matter with the rest of the group, takes him (or her) to one side and gives him a fair appraisal of his singing . The newby is then warned that he must improve or else. After six months the process is repeated. If, after nine months, there is still insufficient improvement he is frog-marched out into the car park and duffed-over. At the end of a year if the newcomer is still boring everyone shitless, reads his songs from an old note-book, is excessively irritating, can't sing in tune, or has not built up an interesting repertoire etc., etc. he is duffed-over again and then expelled from the singaround.

What do you think? I think that my scheme should do wonders for the general standard of singarounds!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM

Dave - the point is, I did accept it; I agonised over it & seriously considered leaving at half time rather than risk inflicting another out-of-tune horror on the room. I also thought seriously about going around the people I knew in the room, taking them each on one side and saying "My singing... is it, you know, is it OK?" or words to that effect. This wasn't practical, which is probably just as well.

This may sound like an over-reaction, but think it through. I've been doing this stuff at singarounds & the like for many years. If I think I've done fine and somebody tells me straight out that I was just that bit out of tune, to me this says that my ear's off as well as my voice - and that the result was bad enough to be worth commenting on. I haven't had any recent damage to my ears, so presumably my ear's been off all these years. We've all known people who can't carry a tune in a bucket but never realise it - so what I'm hearing is that, although I think I sing quite well, actually I'm one of those people (and I don't realise it, because if you're one of those people you never do realise it).

You know there's a football chant, "You're s**t and you know you are" (to the tune of "Go West")? The message I was getting was the rather less rhythmic "You're s**t and you don't know you are (because you're s**t at that too)".

It was enough to make me forget that people had clapped (loudly) when I finished that song, and forget the difference between that and a polite ripple; forget the compliments I'd received in the past; forget all the practice I'd done and all the listening (including recording myself and listening back). It was a blow.

I don't even reject the criticism now, not totally. I don't exclude the possibility that a couple of notes actually were just that bit off, and that I didn't register them myself because I skated over them to get to a bit of the tune I was more comfortable with. I do exclude the possibility that it spoiled the song, though, just based on other people's reaction.

The bottom line is, I don't think it was appropriate for somebody I don't know that well to call a problem with my singing to my attention, when the problem wasn't that big and I clearly wasn't concerned about it myself. If I look blissfully ignorant of why the room emptied when I started singing, then I think you can burst my bubble. (As it goes I'm hyper-conscious of anyone who's left, who's lurking in the doorway, who's yawning, etc, so for me the blissful ignorance part isn't likely.) If I had a minor problem but I look like I'm worried about it, you can commiserate. And if we're friends, you can say what you like - come right out and ask if I've got a cold or something. But if none of those apply, however pure your motives are I think you should keep shtum.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:51 PM

Craigie, I think your final paragraph sums it up nicely - completely agree with you.

Think I'd be tempted, next time I saw her, to ask if she normally volunteers unsolicited criticism to all and sundry... or, if I was feeling particularly reckless, to say something along the lines of "Nice to see you at the last session. Shame about your insensitive behaviour, though..."

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:36 AM

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From: GUEST,Andiliqueur - PM
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:42 AM

I sang a Stan Rogers song with all my heart and soul. I felt that I'd sung it as well as I possibly could. I needed a darkened room to recover. Then someone said "Who is it who does a REALLY good version of that song"? I collapsed into hysterical laughter. It was so funny. How can anyone get a big head in a singaround?
Take it as a compliment. They're looking for a "Really good" version, which seems to accept that yours was a good version.

Cheers
Nigel


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