Criticism at singarounds

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 02:08 PM

other threads have bemoaned the decline of clubs. However, what is becoming clear is that there are many settings where Traditional
/acoustic music is welcomed: pubs, singarounds, sessions, folk clubs, open mics,etc. Everyone should be able to find somewhere to suit their own particular tastes. A cause for celebration one would think.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:46 AM

Agreed Peter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:39 AM

I don't doubt singers appreciate music Jim. They just don't stop talking when music is being played. Musicians generally like a few songs too, they always get shushed if they dare to blink an eye. That's the whole difference. But it comes with the territory of playing or singing in pubs. Something we'll have to accept if we take part in that activity.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM

Over here, we consider singers musicians. They just aren't always instrumentalists. And we DO have some mixed sessions.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 11:21 AM

I have no doubt what you are saying is true Peter, but in my experience I have met far mor singers who appreciate music than I have musiians who appreciate singing - though I wouldn't want to generalise on that.
Two stories on the hazards of public performance:
Blind Henry Blake of Kilbaha, South Clare, was the last of the big Irish Language storytellers here.
Henry lived on the Shannon Estuary and related an evocative account of the time the sailing ships travelled up and down the Shannon, when he heard the shanties drifting across the water on summer nights.
Our friend from the previous story sought him out to record - he agreed, and they adjourned to the local bar, which was empty of customers.
Halfway through one of Henry's big tales, a man came in, turned the television on and sat down to watch a football match.
Henry stood up and walked out - he never told another story.

Back in the seventies we recorded a storyteller from North Clare, Pat MacNamara of Kilshanny - Pat had a large repertoire of tales ranging from about five minutes up to over an hour in length - he also had about eighty songs.
The landlady of the local pub was kindness itself, she was around eighty, like Pat, and they had been lifelong frends.
She took the bell off the door (it was a combined shop and pub) and allowed us to record all Pats songs over a few afternoons, but when it came to his stories, she refused flatly.
She explained that in earlier years locals would gather to hear Pat tell stories, but she put a stop to it when he began to start his longest stories a short time before closing time - after this had happened half-a-dozen times she vowed she would never allow another story to be told in the bar.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:54 AM

Isn't it better to keep the singarounds and the musicians' sessions separate, either different nights at the same venue or different venues on the same night?

York, and the surrounding area has several sessions and several singarounds, but I don't know of any sessions that welcome singers. I do know of singarounds where somebody offering a well-played tune in turn goes down OK, but most of the sessions frown on singers and see them as an interruption. At least one established session in York actually bans singing!

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 09:19 AM

' it goes with the territory of singing in public bars - but on the few occasions where I've seen what I've described happen I've always thought it a little mercenary to use singers in that way '

I can assure you musicians bestowed with the task of providing a few tunes at a singers' night aren't generally treated any different. Which is probably fair enough, singers who have concentrated on singing and listening to other singers need to relax, have a drink and a chat and what better time than when the musicianers provide an interlude. And ditto when the shoe is on the other foot.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:59 AM

"These things have to go both ways to work well."
They do of course Peter, I'm not singling musicians out - it goes with the territory of singing in public bars - but on the few occasions where I've seen what I've described happen I've always thought it a little mercenary to use singers in that way.
Clare fiddle Joe Ryan player made an interesting comment on singing on the obituary programme for Junior Crehan, the veteran Clare musician.
As you probably know, Junior was a singer and an avid enthusiast of singing though he was better known as a musician.
Joe was asked by the interviewer what part singing played in the old sessions which took place almost exclusively in people's homes - house dances.
Joe replied that many musicians dreaded the singing, not because they disliked it, but because it always took place at the end of the evening - he said that in his and many other's other's memories, it marked the end of a good night's dancing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:37 AM

'Over here musicians can be among the worst culprits, though not all of them - some of them are the best listeners I know.
You do get the odd music session where they feel like a break, ask a singer up, then go to the bar and talk loudly with their mates'

In all fairness Jim, same musicians have probably played through hundreds of nights while the singers sat at the bar making a racket only to demand total silence as soon as one them thought of uttering a few lines of song. Not to mention the dirty looks thrown when a musician happens to pluck a string, to check tuning or the key of a singer, or audibly puts down a pint glass on the bar.

These things have to go both ways to work well.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:22 AM

"balladus interruptus"

Just a similar anecdote. Our trio, "Press Gang" back in the early 70s was playing Borehamwood Folk Club at the Red Lion. The room was separate, but you could see across the bar into the public bar-room. We were singing Cyril's 'Grey Funnel Line'.

About half way through the second verse, a glass tankard was thrown in the other room, hitting and breaking the optics. The barman leapt over the bar and decked the guy who thew the glass.

A bar fight broke out by verse three.

Somebody phoned the police, who must have been close as a car turned up outside on blues and twos in verse four.

Arrests were made, and the culprits were marched out of the pub in custody during verse five, and all was quite by the end of the last chorus.

We got a standing ovation for not missing a beat! That was recorded too. Its on a cassette somewhere. I played it to Cyril. He loved it.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:10 AM

What pub-goers like is a bit of a lottery, though. Years ago I was at a singaround with Les (of Chorlton) in a corner of a very noisy pub, and Les did his take on The Wild Rover ("No nay never... shall I sing The Wild Rover...") As we were winding down, an hour or so later, the landlady stood us all drinks and asked if we could sing that song again, because it was one of her favourites. So we all ended up singing TWR that very night, ironically enough. I think that was the same night somebody made a request for "Ar-dee-doo-wah"; fortunately one of us knew it.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 08:07 AM

Over here musicians can be among the worst culprits, though not all of them - some of them are the best listeners I know.
You do get the odd music session where they feel like a break, ask a singer up, then go to the bar and talk loudly with their mates
I'm never sure how to cope with singing sessions in public bars - many regulars are happy just to come in for a pint and the landlord is more interested in keeping them as customers than he is catering for an occasional singing session.
There is a magnificent recording made by a collector friend of ours in a public bar.
The old man had an extremely rare ballad which he was reluctant to sing at home, so he and my friend adjourned to the local, near-empty pub, with a couple of other locals and asked permission of the landlord to make a recording.
Half way through the ballad, another couple of locals came in, stood at the far end of the bar and began to talk loudly.
One of our friend's company asked them to keep the noise down, but was ignored, so the irate local strode down to the end of the bar and decked one of the culprits.
Our friend got it all down on tape and often played it at talks he gave on song collecting - he referred to it once as "balladus interruptus"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:07 AM

As someone who plays in noisy pubs fairly frequently, one of the things that often surprises me is how often people who appeared to spend the whole time talking will often come up and say how much they enjoyed the music and some charitable souls will even buy us beer.
Folk clubs where silence is required and appreciation shown for the poorest of performances are the preserve of the enthusiast.
More pertinent to the thread is the fact that you probably have to do a better job in the pub to get praise than you will ever have to do in a folk club.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 06:05 AM

I did consider politely asking the landlord and his little corner of regulars to keep the noise down a bit, but I reckon that would just put their backs up. And it isn't my singaround or my local any road up.

It is a small pub, and a natural barrier does happen between most of the bar and the singers, but I reckon that makes it worse. The chatterers tend to forget we're there, then.

The best singers club I ran was the old Steamer in St Albans. It was in a large side-room, and you left it to get to the bar, so we had few interruptions and no unintended audience.

The club I'm starting in York this Sunday is a similar layout, though the room is open to the rest of the pub, but I already have the manager's promise that she will keep the bar noise down for us. Sunday's are quiet anyway.

If some of the uni students turn up, I might have to explain the acoustic etiquette to them, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 04:05 AM

Tone - I've experienced four different setups when it comes to the relationship between audience and folk performers:

1. Audience Listens, You Play (old-style FCs, particularly if unamplified)
2a. Audience Talks, You Play (pubs & bars who put performers on as background music, particularly if amplified)
2b. Audience Talks, You Win Them Over (like the previous, but people have come expecting to be entertained; you can get them on your side with The Wild Rover, but you'll lose them halfway through Plains of Waterloo)
3. Audience, What Audience? (if you're in the room you'll be asked if you've got a song, probably more than once)

1 and 3 are fine in my experience, but both the 2s are pretty awful. You're currently stuck in 2a. You could go for 2b, although I wouldn't recommend it - I was in a pub session once which was organised on the basis of (a) sing or play what you want but (b) entertain the rest of the room, and it wasn't ideal. Or you might have a chance of going for 3, if there's a room you can commandeer - how big is the pub? I don't think you can get to 1, though - once people get used to talking over music they don't want to give it up.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 03:07 AM

"I'm very sure in days of yore"
Used to be part of a children's rhyme in Liverpool
It went on....
Before paper was invented,
They wiped their holes on telegraph poles
And rode away contented.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:54 PM

Are there enough interested listeners to form a physical barrier between the singers and the noisemakers? Would they be willing to just stand there and keep the racket away?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:17 PM

Just returned form a village pub singaround.

Its a great pub. The beer is good and not overpriced. The performers are also well accomplished and vert friendly.

The problem is the landlord has a very strident voice and talks over almost everything, unless it his daughter who is performing. (She is a very good pianist on the pub piano.)

Because the landlord talks loudly over the singers, then so do his regulars who seem not to be interested in song performance at all.

So.... how do we criticise this situation?

I would just not go any more, but I love the pub and the other singers.

I'm very sure in days of yore (Hey, that could be a rhyming lyric!) that when somebody sang in a pub everyone else shut up and listened.

Times change I suppose.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:42 AM

: 01 Nov 13 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 08:57 AM

yes it does, it all relates to any criticism being made in private, whether it is criticism of choice of material, criticism of diction, or any other criticism.
the op said a matter of protocol or politeness,
something that 3 posters here have ignored, one of them being jim carroll, with his remark about the merits of me helping someone with their singing being enough to make someone go away and take up macrame.
jim, you as usual have failed to adress the point made about teaching or correcting diction, you have as is your want, then taken it upon yourself[presumably as a smokescreen] to denigrate my abilities.
when will you provide any evidence that correcting a persons diction often interferes with accent and dialect.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 08:38 AM

"perhaps Jim and GSS could exchange e.mail addresses and continue their capitalised confrontation by that means."
Please don't associate me with this harangue any longer - I have said what I have to say on the matter and have no intention to continuing this argument with Dick, which is why I addressed my last remarks to something somebody else raised here.
Old news, if people will allow it to be - forget it.
Nor do I have any particular wish to rake over old ground in the MacColl Mythology saga - it has no place here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:42 AM

MacColls arrogance did not put me off booking him, because they were good performers, which in my opinion should always be the criteria, they gave an excellent night and went and stayed in a hotel

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 07:32 AM

"Do you sing that song a lot? Is that where you usually pitch it? I was just wondering if you might want to try it a touch lower down. It can be hard to nail those high notes every time".
spot on, that is exactly how constructive criticism should be given.      
correcting diction or even ACCENT OR IF YOU WANT DIALECT, is part of constructive criticism of singing, again the way to approach this would be for example. I really enjoyed your version of nicotine girl, but did you sing "down the wymondham way"
i might be wrong ,i am no expert but i think it is generally pronounced windham.
again this sort of thing is best done on a one to one basis, not in front of a whole club.
incidentally an example of MacColls arrogance or rudeness, the lisa turner incident, telling her or maybe even interrupting her when she was on stage, to inform her that the club had a policy that performers had to of sing songs from their own country, that sort of thing should be done afterwards and in private.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:51 AM

perhaps Jim and GSS could exchange e.mail addresses and continue their capitalised confrontation by that means.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM

Ultimately I think it's not how you say it but why you say it. You can dress up a put-down in sympathetic language, but it'll still be a put-down. The supportive alternative to

"Nice song, but you went flat in the chorus"

isn't

"I did enjoy that song - such a shame you went flat in the chorus"

which is just the same thing dressed up a bit. The supportive version would be more like

"Do you sing that song a lot? Is that where you usually pitch it? I was just wondering if you might want to try it a touch lower down. It can be hard to nail those high notes every time."

The real question is whether you want to help the person - in which case you'll do what it takes - or you just want to let them know they're not as good as they may think they are. The latter is probably better left unsaid.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:23 AM

jim.
diction is part of singing, singing is about communicating, audiences have to be able[amongst other things] to understand words
so diction comes under the category of helping singers by giving positve criticism .
i have stated a couple of times that criticism should be given in private and when asked for, it should also in my opinion, be given in a diplomatic manner, so find something good about the persons perfomance, mention it first, then come up with constructive criticism.
   i fail to see how the above comments can be construed as arrogant.
comments denigrating my charcter [ by reputation not a nice character], from people I have never met tell people more about the character of the people who make the comments.
incidentally I met MacColl on a number of occasions, on the first occasion i found him to be extremely arrogant and rude, I think he was a fine songwriter, and a good singer, although there are a number of revival singers who I would prefer to listen to, and a number of tradtional singers larner cox, bob lewis, who in my opinion are better

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:37 AM

One off-on the spot, especially uncalled for criticism is not particularly helpful in my experience as it immediately puts up a defence mechanism - a singer is unlikely to take it into consideration in these circumstances.
On the other hand, if a singer asks for help, I think he or she should be prepared for comments - adverse or otherwise, on what he or she is doing, and more often than not is prepared to accept such comments in the spirit they are offered.
I cringed dozens of times when I heard singers approach MacColl at clubs, having just sung, and asking him for comments, when what they really wanted was for him to say that it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
He invariably gave advice, sometimes detailed and I've overheard extremely resentful comments later - it became part of the myth that MacColl "told people how to sing".
I think it was ill-judged on his part, whatever his reasons for doing so - quick-fixes like that seldom work.
All criticisms should be balanced in a way that a singer can build on their strengths and reconsider their weaknesses - stick and carrot (presuming the singer agrees with the criticism, of course - in the end, it is they who are singing the song and it is their choice what they do with it)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 04:17 AM

Criticising anyones singing is always problematic. Some things such as the ability to sing in tune can be judged with a degree of objectivity, other aspects of performance will be much more subjective. A singer may receive very different feedback dependent upon he type of club/setting they appear at.
This thread does illustrate one point, which is that in most circumstances people tend to be very reluctant to say anything negative about a singers performance. Whether this is a good thing is certainly a matter worthy of discussion.
Many people on this forum post videos on youtube, including some involved in this thread. Having watched a number of these I am sometimes amazed by the gushing praise for some performances which I have to say I have found pretty poor. Of course I never upset the applecart by going against the flow and being critical. It is the old saying beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I play with a couple of friends and we do it because we enjoy it. We practice regularly and we give each other both support and criticism. We strive to be better, but as amateurs we make the occassional cock-up e.g. me changing the key without telling the others, but we are not getting paid and we do learn from our mistakes which seems to me to be a key point.
I know that to some the music/song is a matter for arcane discussion, but for me if either the listening or the playing is not enjoyable it becomes rather pointless.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:45 AM

This is not about diction Dick - it is about helping singers to work on singing by positive criticism.
Who started what is immaterial - it has escalated into a slanging match, - let's stop it now and discuss the subject in hand.
This argument has all but destroyed an otherwise interesting discussion on an important subject.
PLEASE STOP IT NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:18 AM

I have seen GSS perform at Waltham Abbey FC.
He was excellent and everyone there agreed.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 03:11 AM

jim,
debate has not been possible because as usual[similiar to your correspondence with keith a of hertford] you resort to personal attacks[ my merits as a workshop leader and/ or teacher and singer, instead of providing facts when you were asked to, whats new Jim, you do this all the time on this forum.
you accuse me of self promotion,you attack my ability to teach or run workshops, then you come back in saying you dont want to discuss the merits of my singing after saying that i am only good enough to encourage.
the statement of fact [which you call self promotion], has been in response to your rubbishing of me, plus tony haynes rev bayes[ cowardly anonymous troll.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:57 AM

so here is what has taken place.
I ask jim, for some back up evidence that someone helping another singer with their diction often interferes with accent,Jim replies with a personal attack saying that I am not fit to teach singing only fit to to encourage, then he claims he doesnt want to discuss the merits of my singing.
make up your mind jim , you have just criticised my merits, then you say you dont want to.
   then we have some anonymous troll the rev bayes, who come in with this(B) Dick, you're in no position to tell anyone to learn how to sing. I've heard you sing, and while you're not the worst there's no way you should be earning a living as a professional.
another personal attack,please note I HAVE NEVER TOLD ANYONE HOW THEY SHOULD SING, I said that good diction can be taught without losing accent., i explained how I thought this could be done, I will reiterate,
a singer meets with someone whose opinion they respect.the other person listens and points out any words that are not clear.
it is not necessary in my opinion to be a professional singing coach, all that is needed is familarity with the music and careful listening, how is poor diction rectified, it is rectified by listening until there is clarity.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:54 AM

WWhy don't you fellas drop the pissing contest and then "
Happily - but it's a little difficult when serious suggestions are met with personal abuse - read through the suggestions and responses.
Singing workshops have been one of my main interests since was invited to join MacColl's Critics Group in 1969.
I have amassed an archive of information on relaxation and voice exercises, song analysis that has been researched and carried out by the Group which I have always been happy to pass on when asked.
It is by no means the only work on singing carried out on singing, but it represents seven years of fairly intensive work carried out by a single group of fairly well-established singers over such a period - some of those singers, MacColl, Seeger, Frankie Armstrong.... being leading figures both in singing and in workshop training.
I don't expect expected people to fall on their faces and accept the conclusions of this work, but, as a member of a democratic forum I do expect a fair hearing, uninterrupted by personal abuse from a single individual.
The work is there for debate - such debate has been made virtually impossible by Dick's behaviour here.
Sorry folks - I have no interest in people using threads to promote themselves whenever the opportunity arises - I'm far too old for all this and it's not why I signed up for this man's army!!!      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:55 PM

This is entering the realms of fantasy,I ask for evidence about teaching diction "often interfering with accent"
and along come people accusing me of telling others how they should sing.
it is quite true I said that I did not think very much of performers who mumbled behind crib sheets, Vic Smith agreed with me,
but that has got subtly changed by rev bayes and tony haynes to "I am telling people how to sing"
    the fact of the matter is that I have been earning my living as a performer for many years, so clearly a lot of other people including many clubs that have booked me consistently over the years
Stockton, darlington [brit], faversham, swindon, four fools, lewes [sat club] billingham[wilsons club] maidenhead,aberdeen, deal,potteries folk club,cork singers club,kiveton park, saltburn bodmin, they must have all got it wrong, they clearly   have a different opinion to Tony Haynes and the anonymous guest rev bayes. by the way tony haynes runs this,
its only seven months away but no dates are available yet.   
May (Dates for 2014 not yet available)
Yorkshire Air Ambulance Folk Weekend
Sutton upon Derwent Village Hall YO41 4BN
Starring Steve Tilston plus an anthem writing competition for YAA Saturday evening. Local artists and musicians welcome Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday afternoon. Local camping and parking free. Bar by Great Heck Brewery
Contact: Tony Haynes
Telephone: [phone]
Mobile: [phone]
Email: [e-mail]
Website: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0WlAUdUVmHCRlNTblBXWkZBRGM/edit

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:01 PM

Why don't you fellas drop the pissing contest and then I won't have to go in and take out any more personal attacks. Thanks.

SRS

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:49 PM

Me? Cowardly? Unpleasant?

As you ask, and only because you ask:

I am an organiser. In case you are not sure what that means I will explain.

I was a Folk DJ on Chiltern Radio and Horizon Radio in the North London Home Counties. I got the job through the recommendation of a previous DJ, Pete Castle.

I

I ran revived and several successful folk clubs in the St Albans area, notably the Steamerfolk Club, the Beehive and the Duke of Malborough.

I ( with Colin Bargery) formed Cottonmill Clog Morris and Ramrugge Morris.

I risked my personal investment in booking artistes such as yourself, but I never booked you because have no time for arrogance.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:47 PM

Sorry - that last should be "singing workshop at a festival he is involved in".
Too much of a hurry not to miss University Challenge
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 01:23 PM

ok, canal wheeler is tony haynes who I have never met.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:17 PM

Tone - this thread spills the beans.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST, Poxicat
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 12:16 PM

There is some irony (probably not intended by the posters) in places above, specifically the posts by FloraG and GSS.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:53 AM

@GSS

"i have been earning my living as a singer am still doing it and have got the t shirt"

Of course we only have your word for that.

Care to identify yourself so we can check bookings lists?

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 11:07 AM

Fare thee well, sweet Craigie Hill!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:29 AM

I think my work here is done. Thanks to all who posted supportive comments, and Dave.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:11 AM

Thank you for that Vic - never took you for a Knickerless Parson.
Hope you don't regret your retirement - by the way - if it's anything like ours, you'll wonder how you ever found time to do what you do.
G'luck
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM

"bilious interruptions"

Oh! I didn't realise that we were were playing 'Just A Minute' and could interrupt. In that case BUZZZZZZ I press my buzzer and accuse Jim Carroll of repetition in the last two postings 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM and 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM

Flora
"I think the idea of a critics group (or night ) a very interesting one. "
Nice idea, but in practice we've found it seldom work without things all ending in tears.
The singarounds I've been part of worked far better when they were "chaired" by someone who has the sense and experience to not only keep the noise down, stop shuffling feet, get mobile phones turned off, stop clandestine diners treating sessions as cafes... and all the other irritants you mention, but also, while make sure everybody gets a chance, attempts to strike a balance between the lesser experienced and talented and the seasoned performers.
This can help avoid the long runs of singers who are still finding their feet and give a chance of the listener going home having heard a good mix of talents.
Some of the best sessions have been to have been handled in this way – some of the worst are ones I'd never go to more than a couple of times.
Sorry about the somewhat bilious interruptions by the way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM

Flora
"I think the idea of a critics group (or night ) a very interesting one. "
Nice idea, but in practice we've found it seldom work without things all ending in tears.
The singarounds I've been part of worked far better when they were "chaired" by someone who has the sense and experience to not only keep the noise down, stop shuffling feet, get mobile phones turned off, stop clandestine diners treating sessions as cafes... and all the other irritants you mention, but also, while make sure everybody gets a chance, attempts to strike a balance between the lesser experienced and talented and the seasoned performers.
This can help avoid the long runs of singers who are still finding their feet and give a chance of the listener going home having heard a good mix of talents.
Some of the best sessions have been to have been handled in this way – some of the worst are ones I'd never go to more than a couple of times.
Sorry about the somewhat bilious interruptions by the way
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:58 AM

The post on 04 Nov 13 - 08:50 was by Vic Smith. Whilst posting it, he was simultaneously repairing a puncture on the front wheel of his haddock's bike and was too focussed on that to notice that he has lost his cookie.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:50 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:-
"they would be as necessary as bicycles for fish."

In the main, I would agree with Jim, but it not universally true. This photo that I took in Sidmouth shows a Fish that has a great need of bicycles.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:13 AM

no jim,
it was a statement of fact, i have been earning my living as a singer am still doing it and have got the t shirt, furthermore i wouldnt still be getting bookings if i was as you put it not fit to teach singing "!apart from encouraging", you on the other hand do nothing but talk about it.,when someone questions a statement of yours, you cannot provide any back up.
you are entitled to an opinion in much the same way anybody is, but in my opinion your opinion is of little interest to me. i do however value the opinions of singers i respect on the subject of singing, but i do not respect over inflated wind bags.