Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesj

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]


Criticism at singarounds

Related threads:
singaround etiquette (129)
Concert Etiquette (70)
why do singers take so long to start? (174)
Folk Club / Session Etiquette (227)
Performers' showcase etiquette (7)
Session etiquette solutions please (57)
'Rules' for group singing (5)
Band Etiquette Question - Am I a prat? (69)
Singaround etiquette (64)
Singaround Etiquette (18)
Singaround etiquette ? (70)
Impromptu open mike etiquette (6)
Weird open mike etiquette (85)
Hoot Etiquette (76)
Jam Etiquette (49)
Rules of the Session (20)
Talking and other session etiquette (37)
Session Etiquette (24)
Festival workshop etiquette question (12)
Music Etiquette Thought For The Day (33)
Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies (74)
Etiquette question #2 (44)
Etiquette question (106)
Music etiquette: the answer (19)
Etiquette for slow-jams (6)


Jim Carroll 01 Nov 13 - 04:30 AM
Phil Edwards 01 Nov 13 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 13 - 06:45 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 13 - 07:00 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 13 - 07:06 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 13 - 08:21 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 13 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 13 - 08:55 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 13 - 09:00 AM
johncharles 01 Nov 13 - 10:53 AM
The Sandman 01 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 13 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Craigie Hill 01 Nov 13 - 12:40 PM
johncharles 01 Nov 13 - 01:42 PM
The Sandman 01 Nov 13 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Nov 13 - 03:46 PM
Eldergirl 01 Nov 13 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach 01 Nov 13 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Craigie Hill 01 Nov 13 - 08:01 PM
Eldergirl 01 Nov 13 - 08:54 PM
The Sandman 02 Nov 13 - 07:42 AM
The Sandman 02 Nov 13 - 07:45 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 13 - 08:09 AM
johncharles 02 Nov 13 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Nov 13 - 12:13 PM
The Sandman 02 Nov 13 - 12:13 PM
Uncle Tone 02 Nov 13 - 01:38 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM
Richard Mellish 03 Nov 13 - 03:45 AM
The Sandman 03 Nov 13 - 04:30 AM
The Sandman 03 Nov 13 - 04:52 AM
Richard Bridge 03 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM
stallion 03 Nov 13 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 13 - 06:05 AM
MikeL2 03 Nov 13 - 06:10 AM
The Sandman 03 Nov 13 - 12:22 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 13 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Nov 13 - 02:46 PM
The Sandman 03 Nov 13 - 04:14 PM
The Sandman 04 Nov 13 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Nov 13 - 04:06 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Nov 13 - 04:09 AM
GUEST,FloraG 04 Nov 13 - 05:05 AM
The Sandman 04 Nov 13 - 06:13 AM
GUEST 04 Nov 13 - 08:50 AM
Vic Smith 04 Nov 13 - 08:58 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM
Vic Smith 04 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Nov 13 - 10:11 AM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum Child
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:













Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 04:30 AM

In the end improvement comes from a desire to improve- everybody who wants to will find their own road.
I stopped singing regularly when we started to collect and research in 1973, a mixture of lack of time to devote to both and a relisation that if I couldn't put in the time for practice I didn't enjoy the noise I was making.
Recent opportunities have aroused my interest in searching out places to sing and re-learning my somewhat overlarge and unmanageable repertoire.
I am now enjoying singing more than I can ever remember having done so in the past.
I'm certainly not singing better (30/40 years older and I don't think I was ever more than a reasonably competent singer), and I now have the added problem of having a repertoire of largely narrative songs in an environment where people are used to non-narrative, lyrical songs - but I find there are enough people interested in my type of song to make their responses helpful and encouraging - so far!!
I found the journey back a little daunting, especially when I discovered things I couldn't do that I could handle with ease decades ago.
I was horrified when I found I could no longer handle the ranges of two of my favourite songs - The Flying Cloud and The Sheffield Apprentice; I was over the moon when, with a little work, I got them both back.
For me, MacColl's advice was spot-on:
"It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical"
The basic work I was introduced to in 1969 is now bearing fruit - I'm enjoying what I'm doing and I'm enjoying re-visiting all the songs I've been missing out on for so long.
I've selected an extract from the talk I gave at the MacColl symposium where I tried to give a general picture of what the Critics Group was about - feel free to throw stones at it or ignore it - I can only say that it seems to have helped me.
Jim Carroll

The group that was eventually to become the Critics was first started in 1964 at the suggestion of a number of people, including Enoch Kent, Bob Davenport and Eric Winter, who were not happy with what was happening in the revival at the time and felt that Ewan should start classes for singers in order to push up the standards. The main tendencies in the revival then seemed to be the Joan Baez, Bob Dylan soundalikes, or the school of thought that suggested that folk singing required no particular talent and all that was needed is that you should get up and sing as long as you got the words and tune more or less right (even this didn't matter as long as you were armed with enough jokes). Turning up drunk, falling all over the stage and over the front row ensured a return booking in many clubs, as long as it was carried off with showmanship. Both the soundalike, and the near-enough-for-folk-song schools are sadly still with us, though in the case of the former, the models of the soundalikes are different nowadays.
The idea of the group was that a group of singers should meet and, with mutual constructive criticism should work on each other's singing under the direction of Ewan and taking advantage of his considerable knowledge and experience. In order to do this, the first work to be carried out was to listen to recordings from all over the world of as many traditional singers as were available at the time, to analyse what they were doing and why, and to try and apply it to their own singing.      This was undertaken on the premise that, at the height of the tradition, traditional singers, far from being the natural, unconscious and artless songbirds that early collectors considered them, knew exactly what they were doing and worked extremely hard to achieve their objectives. The aim was not to copy the singers, but to take what was best and most useable. It was recognised that the tradition in most parts of the British Isles was past its peak, also that most singers were past their best when the recordings were made, and that it was necessary to try and find out what they would have sounded like when they, and the tradition were in their prime. It was in the Critics Group that I first heard the suggestion that not everything a traditional singer does is automatically good; nor was it true that every singer over a certain age who sang traditional songs automatically was a traditional singer.   I say this because there was, and to some extent still is a tendency to completely base styles on the older singers, asthma and all. The English revival has produced some of the world's youngest old age pensioners.
In order to discuss style and technique a terminology was devised covering ornamentation, tone and delivery. The group became conversant with these terms and were expected to be able to apply them to their own singing. Exercises were given to assist performance; for example, it was noted that nervousness produced physical tension, which could affect adversely breathing and pitch, so a technique of relaxation aiming to control any unwanted tension, was taught. This was based on relaxation techniques used in the theatre. Voice exercises were used to enable singers to find their own natural tone, thereby assisting them to be in control of apparatus. In the same way, singing exercises, including pieces from Wagner, Gilbert and Sullivan and Scots mouth music were given to help with precision in pitch and articulation and the handling of difficult intervals. The place of instrumental accompaniment in song was discussed at length and it was agreed that its role was just that, to accompany. A great deal of attention was paid to this aspect of performance. A group meeting would often take the following form; a singer would be asked to perform a number of contrasting songs, usually three, complete with introductions, as if this was a club performance. The group would then discuss that performance and suggest how it might be improved. The first criterion when discussing the performance was always "did it move you"?      Usually suggestions were tried out on the spot so the singer would go away from the meeting, not with a mass of difficult to digest criticism, but with practical ideas. Ewan would sum up the performance and the criticism at the end of the work. The most important work that the class did was connected with the relationship of the singer to the songs. It was noticed that good traditional singers were capable of performing their songs over and over again without ever seeming to tire of them; (the best of them could make a song sound as if it was just as fresh as the day it was made); while many revival singers often had trouble in keeping the songs alive after a third or forth singing. This was believed to be because of how the singer identified with his or her material, and because much of the traditional singers' repertoire was closely identified with their own lives. In orders to examine this area of singing, ways were devised to try and bring singers closer to their songs. This was done in a number of ways. One of these was to use a technique devised by Constantin Stanislavski in his work with the Moscow Arts Theatre. Singers were asked to analyse the texts of their songs and try to come to a conclusion why the song was made in the first place, what might possibly be the circumstance where it would be first sung. They would be asked to try and select an emotion that summed up the objective of the song. Then they would try to find parallel experiences that had provoked similar emotions. This provoking of emotion memory and applying it to the song being worked on quite often led to the solving of problems in identifying with the songs and occasionally produced some very moving performances. (This work was far more involved that I am able to deal with here, this being only a small part of it).


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:38 AM

Turning up drunk, falling all over the stage and over the front row ensured a return booking in many clubs, as long as it was carried off with showmanship.

Not a Tony Capstick fan, I take it.

Thanks for that, Jim - sounds like a really helpful environment, light years away from "a word in your ear, you were flat".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:45 AM

"Not a Tony Capstick fan, I take it."
Can't say I ever saw Tony Capstick, but I once saw a folk icon vomit over the front row of a Manchester audience.
I will say that a positive hangover from working the way we did was that once you sit through a couple of such sessions you are never again nervous in front of an audience.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 07:00 AM

jim i repeat you are completely and utterly wrong, i put up clips illustrating my point it is possible to make all words clear and unerstandable without losing an accent as ilustrated by my luke kelly and watersons clip, jim you are just wasting everyones time.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 07:06 AM

well jim,
margaret barry once puked up over the front row at the marquis of clanricade folk club, and then carried on playing, i suppose you would say this is alright because it was a traditional singer doing it not a folk comedian.methinks your biased against folk comedians, me i am biased against anyone who is incapable., whether it be margaret barry or concertina players[ no name no pack drill] or folk comedians.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:21 AM

hope this might be of interest, the bristol accent, please note 2.49, certain bristolians who took very great care over their diction, jim ,please note
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZMfnBkV0DM or perfectly clear depite accents http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfnZDcNV_9s


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:43 AM

" i suppose you would say this is alright because it was a traditional singer doing it not a folk comedian.methinks your biased against folk comedians,"
I have no idea why I should suggest this behaviour tolerable from anybody - I suggest you have my attitude to traditional singers arse-uppards.
I can give examples of badly behaved traditional singers - if they consistently behave badly don't book them.
Any booked performers have a responsibility towards whoever booked them and to the audience who come to listen to them.
The problem with traditional performers is that they are invariably unused to the folk-club environment and what is required of them needs to be carefully pointed out - if you don't do this, anything that goes wrong is you'r (the club's) responsibility.
The people I am referring to are seasoned performers who have made bad behaviour part of their act - I know that there was once a whole bunch of them; don't know if that's still the case.
I've known performers - some of them among the best, who have had (IMO) an over-fondness for drink, but who still manage to remain fine musicians - not a problem, revival or traditional.
It's the unprofessional posers who think it permissible to behave badly and constantly inflict that bad behaviour on audences who get up my nose.
Jim Carroll
Incidentally, one of my all-time favourite musicians had a drink problem to the point of it being an illness.
He invariably put in an excellent, often spectacular performance, though occasionally not as good as his best.
We booked him regularly, but always attempted to find out at what stage his drinking was and planned accordingly.
One night I was horrified to see a group of folkies deliberately tanking him up - presumably just for the hell of it.
He was not at his best, but he was still good,
The braindead behaviour of a few morons could easily have ruined things for the audience that night and seriously damaged the reputation of the musician forever - think on't


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:55 AM

"certain bristolians who took very great care over their diction, jim ,please note"
Sorry Cap'n - either I am missing your point, or you are deliberately avoiding mine - what on earth are you saying - that your speaker only manages to speak as well as he does because he took diction lessons - surely not???
You want to hire a diction coach, speech therapist, Swedish masseur.... whatever, feel free.
I suggest we stop cluttering this thread up with something that seems entirely down to a matter of personal preference and individual experiences.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 09:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu9q_vedO7w, try this , despite accents, it is all clear and understandable.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu9q_vedO7w


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 10:53 AM

good diction but unable to sing in tune. Storytelling is for you.

storytelling


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 12:09 PM

diction according to the concise oxford dictionary is wording and phrasing ,verbal style, therefore having an accent is not going to prevent good diction, as has been clerly illustrated by the you tube clips I have put up.
now, good diction is one of the most important techniques for a singer ,you are singing words that need to be understood, if it was a question of singning just beiing a production of a pleasant sound, then it would be acceptable to sing in tune but sing gobbledegook.
One songwriter/singer that always impressed on people how important the words of his songs were ,was woody guthrie, he considered his words and his abilty to coomunicate the most important part of his singing, it was only in his latter years when he was ill , that his diction became less understandable, this was the time that dylan started copying him and mumbling in an affected manner, in his earlier years Guthrie WORDS WERE UNDERSTANDABLE, even though he had an Oakie accent.
jimcarroll , i rest my case, you are completely and utterly wrong,.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 12:28 PM

Whatever you say Cap'n
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 12:40 PM

"jimcarroll , i rest my case, you are completely and utterly wrong,"

And is that a good way to deliver criticism at singarounds as well, or just on Mudcat?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 01:42 PM

It May not be a good way to deliver criticism but appears to have become "A Tradition". A Schweik-Carroll annual argument day should surely be added to the calendar.
John


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 02:31 PM

no, craigie hill,just on mudcat,
if you read an earlier post of mine, you would have seen i said criitcism should only be given if asked for.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 03:46 PM

"It May not be a good way to deliver criticism but appears to have become "A Tradition". A Schweik-Carroll annual argument day"
Shit happens sometimes John - sporadic rather than annual though
"And is that a good way to deliver criticism at singarounds as well, or just on Mudcat?"
Not a criticism just desperation when you realise you are talking to the wall.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Eldergirl
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:44 PM

Funny thing about Dylan, I was watching some film of him at the Newport Folk Festival a year or 2 before he went electric, singing Chimes of Freedom, every word clear as a bell, FAR clearer than yer Roger(Jim)McGuinn a couple of years later on the Byrds' first album. Mumble? Not that song. Maybe some other songs that I missed. But so much of today's singing comes out through a blanket. Dear ol' Bob, OTOH, has the clearest mumble I ever heard.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Tony Rath aka Tonyteach
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 07:28 PM

Write I teach singing - gospel - acoustic - opera - basic voice production
I offer anyone who wants the chance to learn a free intro session so that if it is truly terrible they have not suffered financially

I think that one has to be very careful about comments about singing unless specifically asked I would not pass an opinion as negative comments can destroy someone's confidence
There is a difference between

1 Nervous trier who needs gentle encouragement and positive vibes in a constructive manner
2 The truly talentless which are far fewer than people think. Many voices can be rejigged by simply getting the person to sing in the right key or register
3 The bone idle who will not prepare IMO reading the words means the person concerned has not prepared the song and cannot sing it properly if they are reading from a text

I used to belong to writers groups and have sat through some gruesome sessions of authors reading their efforts. I would suggest each group or sing around has clear guidellines as to what expected in terms of basic performance level You know the words and the tune. or is that too much. The near enough for folk is not good enough and never was


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:01 PM

"1 Nervous trier who needs gentle encouragement and positive vibes in a constructive manner"

Thinking back to the (my) OP... I've got several years of singaround experience & a sizeable repertoire, so I don't usually think of myself as either nervous or a trier, but I guess the cap fits. I came to this stuff fairly late in life, & while I think I'm pretty good at it I know perfectly well I'm not that good - I've heard singers who you could listen to singing the phone book, and I know I'll neve be one of them. There's always the suspicion that people are just being polite, and when I get negative feedback part of me thinks "at last, somebody's being honest enough to tell me I can't sing, I always suspected it."

Or maybe that's just me and my self-esteem issues...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Eldergirl
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:54 PM

Dear Craigie Hill, I could have written exactly what you have just written. It's nice not to feel quite so Alone.. ! :)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:42 AM

to be able to learn from mistakes, is one of the best ways to progress.
i repeat , i have given examples of people singing with accents and every word has been clear , that is what good diction is about,good diction , eg, clarity of speech is not confined to sounding like the queen, even singing in dialect does not have to be a barrier to being understood, here is an example of a dialect song that is perfectly understandable, to a southerner like myself.Lyrics

WOR NANNY'S A MAZER

verse 1

Wor Nanny and me myed up wor minds
te gan and catch the train,
For te gan te the Toon te buy some claes
for wor little Billy and Jane;
But when we got to Rowlands Gill
the mornin' train wes gyen,
And there was ne mair te gannin' that way
till siventeen minutes te one.
So aa says te wor Nan, "Its a lang way te gan,"
aa saa biv hor fyece she wes vext;
But aa says, "Nivvor mind, we hev plenty o'time,
so we'll stop and gan in wi' the next"
She gov a bit smile, when aa spoke up and said,
"There's a pubbilick hoose alang heor,
We'll gan alang there and hev worsels warmed,
and a glass of the best bittor beor"
Nan wes se' stoot aa knew she'd not waak,
and she didn't seem willin' te try;
When aa think o'the trubble aa'd wiv hor that day,
If aa liked aa cud borst oot and cry.

Chorus
Aye, wor Nannie's a mazer,
and a mazer she'll remain,
As lang as aa leeve,
aa winnet forget,
the day we lost the train.

verse 2

So away we went te the pubbilick hoose,
and when we got te the door,
She says, "We'll gan inti the parlor end
For aa've nivvor been heor afore".
So in we went and teuk wor seats,
and afore aa rung the bell,
Aa axed hor what she was gannin' te hev,
"Why," she says, "The syem as yorsel"
So aa caalled for two gills o'the best bittor beor,
She paid for them when they com in;
But after she swalleyed three parts of hor gill,
She said, "Bob, man, aa'd rather hev gin."
So aa caalled for a glass o'the best Hollands gin,
And she gobbled it up the forst try;
Says aa te wor Nan, "Thoo's as gud as a man"
She says, "Bob man, aa felt varra dry."
So aa caalled for another, and that went the same way;
Aa says, "That'll settle thee thorst."
She says, "Aa've had two, and aa's nee better now
than aa was when aa swally'd the forst."

Chorus

verse 3

She sat and drank till she got tight;
She says "Bob man, aa feel varra queer."
"Why", aa says, "Thoo's had nine glasses o'gin
Te maa three gills o'beor."
She lowsed hor hat and then hor shaal,
And hoyed them on te the floor;
Aa thowt she was gan te gan wrang in hor mind,
So aa sat mesel close by the door.
She says, "Give iss order, aa'll sing a bit sang"
Aa sat and aa glowered at hor;
Aa thowt she wes jokin', for aa'd nivvor hard,
Wor Nanny sing ony before.
She gave iss a touch of 'The Row in the Gutter',
She pleased every one that was there.
There was neebody in but wor Nanny and me,
and aa laughed till me belly was sair.
She tried te stand up for te sing the 'Cat Pie',
But she fell doon and myed sic a clatter,
She smashed fower chairs, and the landlord com in,
And he said, "What the deuce is the matter?"


Chorus

verse 4

The landlord says, "Is this yor wife,
And where de ye belang?"
Aa says, "It is, and she's teun a fit
Wi' tryin' te sing a bit sang"
He flung his arms aroond hor waist;
And trailed hor acroos the floor,
And Nan, poor sowl, like a dorty hoose cat,
Was tummelled oot-side o'the door.
There she wes lyin', byeth groanin' and cryin',
Te claim hor aa reely thowt shyem;
Aa tried for te lift hor, but aa cudden't shift hor,
Aa wished aa had Nanny at hyem.
The papor man said he wad give hor a ride,
So we lifted hor inti the trap:
But Nan was that tight, she cudden't sit up,
So we fasten'd hor doon wiv a strap;
She cudden't sit up, she wadden't lie doon,
She kicked till she broke the convaince:
She lost hor new basket, hor hat and hor shaal,
That mornin' wi lossin' the train.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:45 AM

so, jim ,   for once in your life admit you are wrong


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:09 AM

For crying out loud Dick - wrong about what?
I said I don't believe diction coaches to be necessary - I love dialect songs
What the **** are you on about?
Respond to what I have had to say an stop nausing up an interesting thread
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 08:35 AM

A funny song about a man taking his goat for a drink.
back to the thread. Asking a good friend to give you some feedback, or perhaps singing and playing in a group, and definitely recording yourself, can be useful.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:13 PM

"and definitely recording yourself, can be useful."
Must admit I couldn't bear to listen to the sound of my own voice for a long time.
You have to get used to the idea that you don't sound anything like you believe you do - if you get what I mean.
The use of a pitch pipe, and cupping the hand over the ear are both helpful.
We used to have a whole programme of relaxation exercises (starting at the head and gradually working your way down to the waist, so that you end up bent double (any lower and you fall over)) practiced regularly, helped control tension, but nowadays, the simple act of dropping the shoulders into a relaxed position works wonders.
MacColl's 'affectation' of turning his chair back-to-front was a device for producing a clear flow of air.
We also had a series of four vowel-like sounds for producing a pure open tone so that you could learn to control vocal tension - a little strange at first but incredibly helpful when you got the hang of them (strongly advised for use in the praiacy of your own home).
There's a great story of Luke Kelly, who was staying with a couple of doctor friends in Grimsby when he did a booking there.
Luke went for a shower and shortly afterwards his hosts heard strange sounds coming from the bathroom.
Alarmed, they ran up to see what was happening and eventually, after breaking the bathroom door down, they found Luke, stripped to the pelt practicing his Critics Group exercises at the top of his voice under the running water.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:13 PM

,Good diction can often be taught at the cost of perfectly good accents and dialects.
the words of jim carroll.
what proof do you have of this?
i have illustrated with clips a number of singers singing with accents whose diction is perfectly clear.
i suugested that certain elements of singing could be taught, such as diction and singing in tune, and you replied with your nonsensical statement, which as usual you have yet to back up with stats.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 01:38 PM

Quote from four responses:

"jim i repeat you are completely and utterly wrong,

"jimcarroll , i rest my case, you are completely and utterly wrong,.

"so, jim ,   for once in your life admit you are wrong

"you replied with your nonsensical statement,"




This is getting utterly boring. Childish even. Have you not heard of the polite phrase "I disagree"?

Tone


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:29 AM

I agree
Jim carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:45 AM

Jim: "Good diction can often be taught at the cost of perfectly good accents and dialects."

Dick: "i have illustrated with clips a number of singers singing with accents whose diction is perfectly clear."

Those statement are not in conflict. Jim said "often": he didn't say "inevitably". And some singers may simply have good diction without having ever been "taught" it.

Richard


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 04:30 AM

if someone who likes and understands folk music is teaching diction they are not going to destroy accent for the sake of diction.
jim still has given no evidence or stats to back up his "often" statement.
neither has it anything to do with amateur or professional, it has more to do with an understanding of the genreand familarity with folk traditional music.
canal wheeler,I find your posts utterly tedious too, all this drivel about some performer who according to you only sings 3 songs ,but performs them well, and this stuff about someone preventing you from tuning your guitar by actually playing music, it seems to me you do not understand what performing is about, you prefer someone who performs from a crib sheet, rather than someone who performs 3 songs well, if you dont like it, vote with your feet and organise your own club.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 04:52 AM

there has been no evidence provided by jim carroll or anyone else on this thread, that teaching diction OFTEN destroys accents, neither has any evidence been provided that being amateur or professional has any bearing on the destruction of accent by the attempted teaching of diction,
it is just a wild statement by Carroll, that is presented as a truth but which once again is unsupported by any evidence


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM

It is my experience from observation that taught diction and elocution is almost invariably RP, and that taught singing is almost always bel canto. Both things are antithetical to the folk ethos precisely because they are desired in the middle class drawing room with the pianoforte.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: stallion
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:24 AM

This is soooo funny, a few weeks ago at our local session, one of the participants and a very good performer got , shall we say, merry only in his case morose and then started dishing out criticism to every single one playing or singing, it was excruciatingly painful and I had to have a little word in his ear, he then went around and apologised to everyone, of course his criticisms were about spot on but hell this was a session not a performance and people go there for a night out and play and sing with friends, I once went to one of those do's where you sit around in a circle and sing, I was 19 so I suppose it was 1970 at some festival or other.....was a long time before I did that again! Not at all pleasant, informative or helpful, yes and destroying ones confidence, looking back all those years and with the wisdom of years most of it was holier than thou carping trying to establish their place in the hierarchy and feed their own egos rather than "improve" anything that I was doing. The only true advice one can give about singing a song is to find your own voice and feel what you are singing, simple (click)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:05 AM

Dick
Once and for all
It is my opinion that diction, or any other form of 'coaching' is unnecessary, involves cost, and is, more often than not impractical because of the dire shortage of 'coaches/teachers, or any other form of instructors who are skilled at their trade and are conversant with folk styles of singing.
You have provided a few examples of dialect songs - nowhere have you provided evidence that the singers have sought the services of coaches to enable them to handle the dialect singing of folk songs, there aren't any as far as I am aware, and they would be as necessary as bicycles for fish; the acquiring of a dialect is either bred into you, or simply acquired by listening and imitation.
Your somewhat pig-headed insistence on stressing the need for coaching nowhere refers to the alternative I have suggested, that of group of generous, like-minded enthusiasts getting together to work on each others singing - cheap, efficient, readily available - and most of all, beneficial to all who participate in such exercises.
I suggested it because I saw it work - over and over and over again.
It helped me, and I saw it help others - it is the reason I am enjoying singing at the present time.
On the basis of that experience I would have no hesitation in recommending it to anybody who would like to improve their singing and assist others to do so.
So far you have indulged only in hypotheticals - you have not suggested the practicality of finding voice coaches who are conversant in voice coaching for folk singing, you have not given examples of such coaches, and you certainly haven't established a need for them.
To be honest, I have only bothered to respond to your wild, and often extremely insulting posts in order to take advantage of repeating what I firmly believe based on years of practical experience - anybody can sing, with work, anybody can sing well, and with practical help from fellow enthusiasts anybody can accelerate the process of learning and acieving skill and understanding - simple as that.
I believe you to be a enthusiastic and entertaining performer who works hard at what you do, but to be honest, I sometimes find your off-the-wall responses to others insulting and, from your point of view, counterproductive.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:10 AM

Hi

Interesting thread.

Re – Jim's point about recording your own voice and listening to it – Many years ago a very good friend of mine who I admired and respected advised me to rehearse numbers in front of a mirror while recording the songs. I didn't have any film or video recording kit at that time.

Jim is right – what I heard was not what I thought I sounded like. And same with the appearance….at first I couldn't believe that it was me performing. I found this extremely useful in helping me improve and also vitally gave me much more confidence when performing in front of an audience.

With regard to giving advice to others … I only give advice if somebody asks for it. And I hope that advice has always been seen to be constructive because IMHO that is the whole point of the exercise.
Over the years I have been given much advice at performances – most of which went in one ear and out of the other…usually this advice was offered by people who were totally unqualified or incapable of doing so.
Cheers

MikeL2


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:22 PM

Once and for all
It is my opinion that diction, or any other form of 'coaching' is unnecessary, involves cost, and is, more often than not impractical because of the dire shortage of 'coaches/teachers, or any other form of instructors who are skilled at their trade and are conversant with folk styles of singing.
    that is my point, you get someone who likes folk music and ask them to listen to ones singing,[preferably a song they do not know all the words of], they listen and point out any words that are not clear, they do not have to be a singing coach,or professional voice trainer, they just have to use their ears., and point out any words that are not clear. that is in fact teaching diction, it is pointing out words that are not clear DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING JIM.
the above does not interfere with accent.
jim , as usual you are unable to come up with any evidence to back up your statement, this is something i have seen you do before in your below the line spats with other members.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:44 PM

"it is possible to teach people to sing without teaching them style, you teach them how to sing in tune how to have good diction, you can show them how to gradually improve their size of vocal range, so yes it is possible to teach technique without imposing personal views. it is possible to teach the m breathing exrcises and how to use the diaphragm to get better control of air.
none of this has anything to do with style,
you can also teach them how to interpret a song to bring out the story, in my opinion the best way to do this is by taking a song and showing 3 different interpretations, that way a student can be conscious of different styles, this is in my opinion is a preferable alternative to playing a recording of one singer and saying this is the best way to do it"
nowhere in the above post , or anywhere else have i suggested going to a professional coach, i said ..you teach them how to have good diction, the way that is done is explained in my previous post.it is done by getting the person to sing to another person and then get an opinion about clarity of words.DO YOU UNDERSTAND,JIM WHAT I AM SAYING.
there is nothing off the wall about this.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:46 PM

"there is nothing off the wall about this.
Your insulting and arrogant behaviour is the off-the wall behaviour i'm referring to.
You son't strike as being qualified to teach anything
Your lack of people skills - as displayed here and elsewhere, would more likely persuade them to go off and take up macrame rather than work at being a singer.
If you repeated "DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING" the way you have here you'd spend most of your lesson time picking your teeth up off the floor.
I've given you examples of exercises for people to work on their own pronunciation rather than someone trying to "teach" it.
Your postings are partly repetition of what I have already said - which you have either taken as your own in order to cobble some sort of a half-arsed face-saving escape clause, or you simply haven't read what I've written.
People are quite capable of making their own judgements - if they need help they are better advised to obtain a consensus of views rather than run the risk of having personal prejudices of an individual imposed on their singing.
Let people make their own judgement rather than allow a "teacher" to impose his/hers.
I wouldn't take it upon myself to presume to "tutor" anybody
I wouldn't presume to "teach" anybody anybody anything - neither would MacColl when he set up the Critics Group; what little I've heard of your singing doesn't show an outstanding ability on your part to teach anybody anything - rather, you might give them encouragement, no more.
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 04:14 PM

Your lack of people skills - as displayed here and elsewhere, would more likely persuade them to go off and take up macrame rather than work at being a singer."
Jim, you have never met me,furthermore your statement could not be further from the truth.
and now here are some more facts, I have taught pupils for many years, some have stayed with me for five to six years and have recommended other people to take lessons.
I recently did a workshop at Tenterden folk festival,the feedback was good, nobody decided to take up macrame as far as i am aware, in fact a couple of mudcat members were there]and i have not heard any reports of them taking up macrame.
    jim, everyone including the tone deaf can have an opinion on singing, that does not mean their or your opinion is of any worth, ANY MORE THAN YOUR OPINIONS ON FOLK CLUBS ARE OF ANY WORTH,those opinions like so many of your opinions are based upon THE VERY occasional visit YOU MAKE to England and are classic cases of generalising from the particular.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:17 AM

jim, you are also confusing the abilty to teach with the abilty to sing/play well, being a good musician/singer does not mean that the person will be a good teacher.
quote "what little I've heard of your singing doesn't show an outstanding ability on your part to teach anybody anything - rather, you might give them encouragement, no more".
next you refer to my lack of people ability[ you have never met me], yet again you are confused, you are surely talking about what YOU consider is my lack of internet skill[a debatable point, which to me is reminiscent of the pot calling the kettle black], you see I think you lack internet skill, but unlike you I will give some examples, your below the line wrangling with keith a[whenever you are asked to produce evidence you dont, you resort to insults], rather similiar to your last post [where you attempt to denigrate my singing].
here are some facts, jim, I have been singing on a professional basis since 1976, and am employed regularly to do so, in fact recently I was given a t shirt by Stockton folk club, because in 50 years,Iwas the singer that was booked to perform the most.
the difference between you and me Jim, is that I can and do perform and get paid for singing[ and i have the t shirt to prove it, you on the other hand just talk about it.
the only thing you have done in the last 30 years is collect songs[ nothing wrong with that] but it does not mean you have the right to come on here and attack me personally and/ or my singing.
further more you have gone back to your tactics those you use with keith a, of when asked to provide stats or evidence, putting up a smoke screen and using either insults or denigrating the other person.
jim , please answer my question, how does listening to another performer[ my idea of teaching or helping] and helping them to sing clearly[ good diction] eg pointing out any words that are unclear. "often interfere with accent" as you put it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:06 AM

Sorry Dick - self recommendation is never a reliable guide to someone's abilities.
You are right - I have never met you - all I have to go on is what you contribute to this forum, and your persistent arrogant rudeness, hectoring, bullying, and insults scream out (to me at least) that this is not what I would look for or expect in a 'teacher' (not since they closed down the old Irish Industrial schools because of what went on there).
Your facile suggestions of "3 different interpretations" or "teach them how to interpret a song to bring out the story" goes against everything I was part of for 20 years.
Every singer is different and every problem those singers have is unique to those individual singers, and to produce a cure-all 'scribbled on the back of an envelope' solution to all ills just doesn't hack it.
A singer must make his/her own decision on interpretation, based on the text and on their own personal take on that text.
Each singer's own problems have to be dealt with as just that - individual, unique problems.
That cannot be quick-fix 'taught', you can only work on what a singer has already done and help (help only - not teach) them to build on that.
Even raw beginners have done some work and reached some conclusions on what they want to achieve.
Nobody has the right or the ability to impose styles and interpretations, or even restrict the number of interpretations to three or however many - that is the most personal and in many ways the most enjoyable part of singing - expressing your own feelings and emotions through song - that can never be 'taught'.
In my opinion, the very first thing you need to do with new singers is to encourage them to listen to our source singers, particularly the best of them - if anybody has a claim to be 'teachers' it is the people who have kept them alive and passed them on for generations, centuries even.
Your record on source singers doesn't particularly commend you as a good 'teacher' I'm afraid.
'Tone deafness' is a fairly rare medical condition which very seldom surfaces in wannabe singers (certainly not in my experience) - I doubt if it can be cured or even commented on by amateurs like ourselves.
It is often mistaken for unfamiliarity with the act of singing and sometimes used to dismiss prospective singers as no-hopers - as you appear to have done here by relegating them to no more than opinion givers.
"THE VERY occasional visit YOU MAKE to England and are classic cases of generalising from the particular."   
I get more than a little tired of arguments like these - you are the one of two people on this forum who use it instead of argument in discussions.
I don't attend English clubs as often as I did or as often as I want to - that in no way excludes me from holding or expressing an opinion on what goes on there.
I have some idea of the pertaining state of things: from the web, from what singers like you put up on U-tube, from discussions on Mudcat, from magazine articles, from regular visits of English singers to festivals and singing week-ends over here, from constant contact with friends on the scene.... far more than I ever did when I was attending the handful of clubs I did when I was living in the UK.
Added to which, the four decades I was involved in the English scene is enough to persuade me that things haven't changed for the better and a significant number of people still involved agree with that.
If your ill-mannered and dismissive behaviour on this forum is anything to go by I am glad to be able to view the scene from a distance where I can put the occasional self-promoting arrogance and seemingly built in corpse-kicking into perspective.
"DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I'M SAYING DICK"               
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 04:09 AM

Sorry - cross-posted
Your latest offering was elitism in the extreme "me performer - you listener"
Thank you for making my point so perfectly
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 05:05 AM

I think the idea of a critics group( or night ) a very interesting one. There are so many things you could say but don't like to
- you're never ready
- you may be the organiser but taking every third spot is not really on
-excluding those not in the ' in crowd'
- over long songs/ tunes that no one else knows
- eating crisps too loudly
- going to the bar in the middle of someone else playing/ singing
- arriving late and expecting to be given an immediate spot

Then there are all the musical things.

perhaps its better just to air the comments here.
FloraG


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 06:13 AM

no jim,
it was a statement of fact, i have been earning my living as a singer am still doing it and have got the t shirt, furthermore i wouldnt still be getting bookings if i was as you put it not fit to teach singing "!apart from encouraging", you on the other hand do nothing but talk about it.,when someone questions a statement of yours, you cannot provide any back up.
you are entitled to an opinion in much the same way anybody is, but in my opinion your opinion is of little interest to me. i do however value the opinions of singers i respect on the subject of singing, but i do not respect over inflated wind bags.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:50 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:-
"they would be as necessary as bicycles for fish."


In the main, I would agree with Jim, but it not universally true. This photo that I took in Sidmouth shows a Fish that has a great need of bicycles.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:58 AM

The post on 04 Nov 13 - 08:50 was by Vic Smith. Whilst posting it, he was simultaneously repairing a puncture on the front wheel of his haddock's bike and was too focussed on that to notice that he has lost his cookie.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM

Flora
"I think the idea of a critics group (or night ) a very interesting one. "
Nice idea, but in practice we've found it seldom work without things all ending in tears.
The singarounds I've been part of worked far better when they were "chaired" by someone who has the sense and experience to not only keep the noise down, stop shuffling feet, get mobile phones turned off, stop clandestine diners treating sessions as cafes... and all the other irritants you mention, but also, while make sure everybody gets a chance, attempts to strike a balance between the lesser experienced and talented and the seasoned performers.
This can help avoid the long runs of singers who are still finding their feet and give a chance of the listener going home having heard a good mix of talents.
Some of the best sessions have been to have been handled in this way – some of the worst are ones I'd never go to more than a couple of times.
Sorry about the somewhat bilious interruptions by the way
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM

Flora
"I think the idea of a critics group (or night ) a very interesting one. "
Nice idea, but in practice we've found it seldom work without things all ending in tears.
The singarounds I've been part of worked far better when they were "chaired" by someone who has the sense and experience to not only keep the noise down, stop shuffling feet, get mobile phones turned off, stop clandestine diners treating sessions as cafes... and all the other irritants you mention, but also, while make sure everybody gets a chance, attempts to strike a balance between the lesser experienced and talented and the seasoned performers.
This can help avoid the long runs of singers who are still finding their feet and give a chance of the listener going home having heard a good mix of talents.
Some of the best sessions have been to have been handled in this way – some of the worst are ones I'd never go to more than a couple of times.
Sorry about the somewhat bilious interruptions by the way
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:21 AM

"bilious interruptions"

Oh! I didn't realise that we were were playing 'Just A Minute' and could interrupt. In that case BUZZZZZZ I press my buzzer and accuse Jim Carroll of repetition in the last two postings 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM and 04 Nov 13 - 09:06 AM


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:11 AM

Thank you for that Vic - never took you for a Knickerless Parson.
Hope you don't regret your retirement - by the way - if it's anything like ours, you'll wonder how you ever found time to do what you do.
G'luck
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Next Page

  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 19 April 9:35 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 2022 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.