Criticism at singarounds

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 01:05 PM

I don't really (still) know what 'head voice' is. Like most people, I have a range from x to y and a fair number of songs I've sung require that entire range, so I have to pitch the opening note so as to enable me to hit both the high notes and the low notes in the song. The song that allowes me to sing *either* high or low just as I prefer isn't all that commonplace IMO. And I don't think I have too much of a limited range.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:42 PM

I never did find out what a "sleeve job" was.

Maybe:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sleeve%20job

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:21 PM

Eldergirl
"guilty as charged, Jim!"
However you choose to sing is entirely up to the singer, but if head-voice is not your natural voice (it seldom is) then it is a choice you have made and it is not carved in stone.
The 'gear change' is handleable (Peggy Seeger and Sandra Kerr did a lot of work on it if my memory serves) - both have developed excellent control when they choose to use it.
The breath problems that come with head voice are a different matter, especally when you're getting on in years and more especially if you are/where a smoker.
Head voice takes twice as much breath to produce and can restrict your ability to handle long lines.
We had a singer who had had medical breathing problems but had chosen to sing most of her songs using H.V. with the built in long line problems.
As soon as she tried chest voice production the breath problems vanished.
It's all a matter of personal choice of course, and the singer is the only one to make that choice.
Personally I find the natural speaking tone singing of say those used by Jeannie Robertson or Sheila Stewart's knife-edged tone, far more convincing than the somewhat milk-and-water effect produced by many women singers who have beautifully rich speaking voices, rather than the breathy tones produced by many who choose to sing otherwise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:07 PM

PS - and the last time I heard Bert Lloyd anything resembling a tune was notably absent, although the long rambling stories were sometimes amusing. I never did find out what a "sleeve job" was.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM

Actually, I don't much like Ewan MacColl's singing, although recordings of him are sometimes a useful place to find songs. Ditto of the Collinses.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 11:49 AM

At Vic (with a grin in case anyone mistakes my intention).

"circumlocutive"

Great word!

But in the online dictionary:

"No entries found"

Are we expanding the Inglish langwidge here?

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 11:37 AM

"Borrow a chromatic button accordion player and have a few people ready to join in with the Athole Highlanders in A flat using E flat whistles, detuned fiddles and an old Salvation Army concertina?"



'Ringers' in fact? T'would be difficult to find any better or louder than this guy.

I did best him just once though.

I play bodhran sometimes. I've played it for years, but not very well. Basic stuff. (I'm really a vocalist.) This guy would frown on me if I took it to the sessions. So, one night I found a good demo on YouTube, and I sat up all night and kept going until I could emulate the performances on the screen. It cost me a few blisters, but I did it. I could play in reasonably good Kerry Style, using both ends of the beater at will, (though good Top End is still a skill I covet).

Next time at the session I gave it a go when 'he' was playing. Realising that I was now fairly competent he kept increasing the speed, thinking that he would leave me panting behind, but I kept up, all the way until he gave up, when I finished with a double-his-speed flourish. It was a great moment for all there.

But, he is so thick-skinned he learned nothing by it! He still belittles anyone else playing at the sessions, especially if they are beginners.

Unfortunately, he seems to think musicians' sessions are competitive.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 08:45 AM

I saw a well know English Concertina player take such a person down a peg or two in a session in Whitby. Same scenario - The culprit insisted on playing in different keys etc. Good English player joined in with one of his then proceeded to play it in every other key, speeding up as he went, until the culprit realised he had been bested :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 08:38 AM

I was at a music session last night. These sessions are very good, but absolutely dominated by one multi-instrumanetalist. If anybody else plays a tune, he has a habit of overpowering it and then playing it faster, better, or in a different key that others can't join in with, just to prove he can. He is very good, but he knows it too, and seems to have to demonstrated his skill whenever he can.[...]

How do we criticise him in a pub music session, where turns are not taken in order and everyone can join in if they want to?

Borrow a chromatic button accordion player and have a few people ready to join in with the Athole Highlanders in A flat using E flat whistles, detuned fiddles and an old Salvation Army concertina?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 08:29 AM

These days I avoid Mudcat threads that have more than 100 posts. Their circumlocutive repetition, often from entrenched positions, does not make for engaging reading. However, sometimes I am tempted in as I was today. Sometimes, somethings that are written spark a memory. Today it was the mention of singers who could not hold the tune and that took me back over 40 years and made me remember Adam Young.

Adam was an old bothy singer who appeared at several of the T.M.S.A. festivals in Scotland - notably the one at Kinross.

* Adam could not hold a tune when he sang.
* Adam was a really great performer of the the old bothy songs.

Now, these two statements might seem incompatible. But in spite of his basic difficulty with the melody, he had everything - a great repertoire which he sung with commitment and enthusiasm, superb timing, a great way of putting songs over, humour, a feeling of authenticity, an engaging personality and friendliness towards the much younger singers that surrounded him. All these qualities more than compensated for his basic failing.

He was an old fashioned farm labourer and at the festival he was being feted by the sixties generation and somehow it worked. It still makes me smile when I think of the occasion when Adam sang The Overgate changing just one word as he did so-

Says I: "I've lost my waistcoat,
My watch chain and my purse."
Says she: "I've lost my handbag
And that's a damn sight worse."

I remember the puzzled look on his face as his young audience fell about with laughter at this.

Adam Young - a nearly forgotten hero.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 08:18 AM

Just because people are not given feedback because of social sensibilities, it doesn't mean judgements are not being made. I make my judgement and act accordingly.
1. Stay and listen keenly will probably be excellent.
2. Sup my beer worth listening
3. Toilet break, and to the bar for beer if likely to exceed 12 verses
4. Never again, go elsewhere.
Anyone singing in a situation where an audience is present should expect to get feedback. Anyone spoiling a session for others should be given feedback. If people are prepared to put up with rubbish they should do it in private with other consenting adults.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Vic Smith
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 07:49 AM

Dick Miles wrote:-
"I would rather have a performer who sang three songs well than a performer who is unfamiliar with their song and hides behind a bloody crib sheet, it is the crib sheeters of this world who are bringing the music down, mumbling away and performing badly."

I must be ill...or getting very old... or something like that. I have just agreed with every word that Dick Miles has written.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 07:37 AM

That is a tough one. A session I used to go to (I dropped out due to lack of skill) had a similar character once - he did things like playing along with everyone on a tune they'd been playing in D for the last six months, then saying "And this is what it sounds like in F!" - cue solo by man with chromatic instrument. I think he was eventually induced to take his expertise elsewhere, possibly just by general glowering.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 07:22 AM

"Above was in response to canalwheeler's "set list", which prompted the immediate reaction of "h'mph, not doing any traditional songs, not like me". Followed by..."

Phil - It wasn't a set list. In context it was a few examples of songs that I have recently sung in public after many years, and making the point that I wouldn't do so without re-learning 'em properly first.

In fact I do sing quite a lot of trad songs too, but these have never dropped out of my repertoire.

I known this is not quite the same thing, and tweaking the thread a bit, but I was at a music session last night. These sessions are very good, but absolutely dominated by one multi-instrumanetalist. If anybody else plays a tune, he has a habit of overpowering it and then playing it faster, better, or in a different key that others can't join in with, just to prove he can. He is very good, but he knows it too, and seems to have to demonstrated his skill whenever he can.

The sessions are notably better and more friendly when he isn't there!

There are some who won't go to those sessions if he is there.

How do we criticise him in a pub music session, where turns are not taken in order and everyone can join in if they want to? Personally I've decided to join those who have voted with their feet, which is a pity, cos it's a great pub.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,eldergirl on another computer
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 06:21 AM

guilty as charged, Jim! some days I can manage the leap, but mostly not. tension, and lack of practice, that is, not singing out for most of my life. :(

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 05:03 AM

" just get the story across without bloody mumbling!!"
Please rant away.
One of the main things we concentrated on over the thirty-odd years we recorded old singers was to ask them how they felt about and approached their songs - there is surprisingly little in the form of interviews with field singers in either printed or aural form, except from the US.
Every singer we asked told us they regarded themselves as storytellers whose stories came with tunes.
We spent an afternoon with Clare singer Tom Lenihan discussing phrasing, and how he approached the story and fitted the sung text into the tune.
Walter Pardon spent hours talking about how he identified with his characters - The Pretty Ploughboy used to plough the field opposite his house.
We became convinced that the narrative storytelling nature of folk songs was what made them unique
"A wealth-y squi-er"
What you are describing is what we used to refer to as four-squaring - attempting to fit the words into the tune rather than the other way round - leading to the breaking up of words, taking breaths were there are no commas or stops......
One of the saddest examples of this is in Phil Tanner's (one of my favourite singers) version of Banks of the Sweet Primroses, where age forces him to take a breath in the very last line of an otherwise spectacularly perfect rendition.
Another problem that seldom occurred in the older singers was the 'head-voice' syndrome (common to women unless you happen to be a castrati!)
The airy tone some women use takes up too much air to sing a full line without having to take a breath - saw a spectacular example last night in our local session when an otherwise fine singer broke down and abandoned her song.
This tone also produces 'gear change' - a forced shift from head to chest tone as the singer moves down her range - a lack of tonal continuity - a sort of quantum leap - can't think of a single example among the older generation of singers - plenty in revival ones.
Sorry - having my own personal little rant now.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Oct 13 - 04:22 AM

The folk in the forest, they are scared of me.
The folk in the forest, they ask it of me.

That's not diction so much as stress, which is a minor obsession of mine. I don't sing with my speaking voice, but I always try and put speech-like stresses on the words - which in Eldergirl's example would almost always eliminate the confusion. (Unless the previous line was "Folk in general aren't scared of me at all, but...")

Some people sing as if English were as malleable as French - a series of syllables of interchangeable weight - but it doesn't work for me. I learned my version of "The holland handkerchief" from Norma Waterson's version on a Waterson:Carthy album; for ages I was singing "A wealth-y squi-er", stressing each syllable equally. (Usually I pronounce 'squire' as a monosyllable, to make matters worse.) Once I'd got the stresses into speech-like shape I had to re-fit the tune to the words, which was a pain, but it must have worked; when I did it somebody said they were reminded of Packie Byrne.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Eldergirl
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 08:44 PM

Articulate, enunciate, let 'er rip with good clear diction, no matter what your accent or dialect, just get the story across without bloody mumbling!!
Oh, pardon me, I seem to have had a wee rant again.. :)
The folk in the forest, they are scared of me.
The folk in the forest, they ask it of me.
Easy to mis-hear, innit? Clear diction goes a long way.... somewhere. I've forgotten where. I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 04:05 PM

Cross posted;
Luke Kelly (whatever might be your opinion of his singing) was a Dubliner - he was an early member of the Critics Group.
Ewan (or anybody, couldn't have 'taught' him to sing like that in a million years.
I shudder to think what Luke would have sounded like if Ewan (who had one of the worst Irish accents - worsted only by his Liverpoolese) had tried to teach him to sing.
Ewan had two accents - the one he grew up surrounded by as a child, Scots - ish (a sort of mixture of his fathers Lowland Scots and his mother's highland brogue) and his native Salford one which later leveled out to a sort of standard English.
He was first discovered by a BBC director in the 'Hungry Thirties' , street-singing to a cinema queue in Glasgow. his repertoire being a mixture of various Scots ballads and songs in Scots Gaelic - I would love to know what he sounded like, but the BBC man was impressed enough to offer him a job in a political May Day broadcast!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 03:51 PM

Jim, please explain why you cannot teach good diction without interfering with dialect or accent."
I think we're talking at cross-purposes here, which rather underlines the point I was making about amateurs teaching Dick.
You seem to be confusing diction with articulation.
A diction teacher will teach you to pronounce 'properly', whatever that means.
Articulating, as I understand it, means saying whatever you have to say clearly, so the listeners can follow it, even though they may not necessarily understand what you have to say because of the words and pronunciation - that's another problem altogether.
We had two singing exercises for developing articulation; Gilbert and Sullivan's "First we polish off some batches.....", and 'Tail Toddle' - a piece of Port a Buel (mouth music)
All this may be a question of semantic misunderstanding, but the point I'm making is, as far as I'm concerned, the best way to learn anything is to work it out for yourself or, in group situation, along with others; the best help you can be given is to be made aware of specific problems in the first place so you know what to aim at.
If you are not being 'taught', the group, whose objectives might all be different than your own, can learn along with you.
Sorry - not sure I'm explaining this articulately - it's something you take on board and adapt to your own changing needs over the years.
Jim Carroll
I gave a talk at MacColl's 70th birthday symposium in which I tried, very nervously, to explain how the Critics Group worked and what it achieved (and didn't)
I still have the script and am happy to dig out relevant bits if you are interested.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 03:15 PM

thirty foot trailer sung by a member of the critics group with a dublin accent and still clear dictionhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yX6Ci-rZck check mate, jim, in 2 moves

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 03:09 PM

every word clear and he is singing in an ulster accenthttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh7bAPi2ty4
yorkshire accents but diction is clearhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmDUdJXS95w.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmDUdJXS95w with a dublin accent from a member of the critics group
jim, your statement is complete rubbish

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 02:39 PM

Leave a thread long enough; and despite being nice folky people who observe the social niceties, criticism will rear its head. Plus ça change.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 02:13 PM

Jim, please explain why you cannot teach good diction without interfering with dialect or accent.
let us take macColl, he sang with a scottish accent but his diction was clear., how does that fit in with your statement
canal wheeler,i never post here when i am in my cups. furthermoreI am unable to drink alcohol at the moment or when i posted , i have /had gout, so you are way off the mark.
Jim,
MacColl still participated in the critics group,and whether he declined to teach is irrelevant, he was the oldest person in the group and had a dominant personality and was a strong influence on other members, as nearly all those members of the critics group have stated.
Finally, canal wheeler, if my post was illiterate, how did you manage to read it and understand it, the dictionary definition of illiterate is,ignorant of letters , unable to read, unlearned.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 01:39 PM

There is a book on how to do constructive criticism in a more general setting: Gracie Lyons, Constructive Criticism: A Handbook (1980). I haven't seen a copy for 30 years but I remember it as being quite sensible.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 12:40 PM

Above was in response to canalwheeler's "set list", which prompted the immediate reaction of "h'mph, not doing any traditional songs, not like me". Followed by...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 12:30 PM

I only ever do traditional songs these days. Apart from a few Tawneys and a couple by MacColl, of course, and some settings of Robert Burns. And some of Bellamy's Kiplings (if they were good enough for Bellamy), and one Martin Simpson setting of Kipling of which I'm rather fond - and some of Bellamy's own, of course. Sydney Carter wrote some good ones, as did Jake Thackray, and when I'm feeling brave I sometimes do a Lal Waterson. I don't do Dylan as a rule, but you can't really not do any Dylan. Oh, and there's a Noel Coward song I sometimes do for a lark. I've written some of my own, too, but they don't get many outings these days - because these days I only ever do traditional songs.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 12:30 PM

"you teach them how to sing in tune how to have good diction"
Not sure I agree
Unless you re in one-to-one situation and have professional training and abilities you can only suggest where to look for these and other aspects of singing.
We had a relaxation technique, but others found 'Alexander' and other methods more suitable to their particular requirements
Good diction can often be taught at the cost of perfectly good accents and dialects.
We had a series of voice exercises based on Wagner, Gilbert and Sullivan and Scots Mouth Music - other people had their own.......
You have to assume some knowledge, experience, preferences and needs of everybody who asks for advice.
MacColl was at the top of his field when he set up the Critics group - he turned down a request to 'teach' singing because:

a He didn't believe himself capable of it without imposing his own preferences on others
b He felt that working the way the group did, everybody who participated in workshop work (not just the 'victim' came away with something simply by being put in a position of having to think and articulate on the act of giving voice.

It's interesting (for me) to go through some of the recordings of the Group workshops and see how it was carried out very much on a suck-it-and-see basis - if it works, keep it - if it doesn't, forget it.
I don't know any single individual who has studied the art of traditional singing enough to claim to be able to teach it; I do know some people who have mastered and are able to pass on certain (few) aspects of it enough to point people in the right general direction - Sandra Kerr and Frankie Armstrong spring to mind.
I was very depressed when I listened to Martin Carthy's highly unfair and highly inaccurate assessment of the work of The Critics Group - if it had any 'rule', it was not 'how a song "should" be sung' as the title suggested, but rather 'a singer has to be their own ultimate critic'.
The only thing I got from the dreadful programme was a further set of 'Folkie Legends' about somebody who generously devoted a large part of his life to helping less experienced singers while the superstars were busy getting on with their careers.   
'Now climbing down off personal hobby horse and leaving it to graze in peace'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 12:08 PM

"Ho hum. Here we go."

Whatever he says now I'll give him the last word. It'll keep him happy.


"happily announced that he hadn't played his next song for "twenty years""

He might have meant he hadn't played it in public for 20 years. Hopefully he has practised it.

I am currently reviving songs from the 60s that I haven't played for some 40 years.

They are going down well. The reaction is usually "I haven't heard that for n number of years!" Well, quite.

Just because songs are getting old doesn't mean they are out-of-date or irrelevant, but I am spending quite a lot of time re-learning them before I do them publicly.

Examples?

Little Boxes (but in a minor key)
Chords of Fame (Phil Ochs)
Birmingham Sunday (Richard Farina)
Champion at Keepin' "em Rollin (McColl)
Grey Funnel Line (Tawney)

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 11:51 AM

Ho hum. Here we go.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

@GS   "i am not a troll or illiterate,I know nothing about you, but let me tell you I have been performing and writing songs on a professional basis for 37 years, I would advise you to mind your mouth and manners."

Is that supposed to impress me or give you status here?

I'll just remind you of what you wrote and how you wrote it:

"canal whheeler, since you clearly do not like this guy, why not try do you know you have b. o.,or do you know every week you are here singing the milkmaman is putting a bun in your wifes oven"

Firstly you assume I don't like the guy. Wrong.

Secondly your entry was illiterate. I guess you were probably in your cups when you wrote it?

Thirdly your suggestions, whether written in humour or ignorance, were ridiculous. and ill founded. certainly not constructive to the thread.

You might not be a troll normally..... but when you wrote that you certainly were.

Maybe an apology would be more appropriate than a lot of self-righteous bluster?

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 11:44 AM

it is possible to teach people to sing without teaching them style, you teach them how to sing in tune how to have good diction, you can show them how to gradually improve their size of vocal range, so yes it is possible to teach technique without imposing personal views. it is possible to teach the m breathing exrcises and how to use the diaphragm to get better control of air.
none of this has anything to do with style,
you can also teach them how to interpret a song to bring out the story, in my opinion the best way to do this is by taking a song and showing 3 different interpretations, that way a student can be conscious of different styles, this is in my opinion is a preferable alternative to playing a recording of one singer and saying this is the best way to do it

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 11:00 AM

I've been assembling material gathered over the years on work we've been involved in with various workshops - happy to pass on anything we have to interested people.
I wonder if anybody has an opinion on present 'workshops' which seem to have sprung up like mushrooms over the last few years and have become part of a number of festivals and singing weekends.
The ones we've attended are run thus:
Them in charge hand out printed sheets of words of one/several songs you may or may not know or like.
The tune is taught by 'im/'er in charge and the group repeats it until they've learned it proficiently enough to try it out for themselves.
Depending on the size of the group, the teacher may or may not spend a limited amount of time with individuals.....
The number of times I've raised the question of 'song-sheet teaching' I have invariably been told that singers need to feel that they have been given something tangible, rather than something they have to achieve for themselves.
I'm used to groups that limited themselves to one - maybe two performances per evening (usually consisting 3 contrasting songs) which are then discussed by the group as a whole, who were expected to comment positively on what worked and didn't and suggest how what didn't work might be improved (this latter being given in 'bite-size chunks so the singer wasn't overwhelmed by too much information)
These 'criticisms' were always fairly firmly chaired so the singer didn't drown in a mass of suggestions.
The real work on singing was always done (or not done, depending on the enthusiasm of those worked on and the skill of the criticism) at home.
These sessions were followed up some time later when the singer had had time to do some work - a progress assessment, if you like.

I've never really been convinced that there is a quick-fix method, but I may have missed something.
Wonder if anybody has any views on teaching - is it possible to actually teach anybody to sing without imposing personal views, techniques and idiosyncrasies.
I would very much welcome views and suggestions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 10:51 AM

But is that over-protective? Might some singers benefit from being told they'd been screwing up without realising it? Has unsolicited criticism got a part to play in maintaining singaround standards?
   if unsolicited criticism is given, it should be given after a compliment has been given, in my opinion unsolicited criticism should be given in private if its given at all, but if it is given it should be given after praise.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 07:07 AM

It's a bit like learning to drive - to begin with you have to think consciously about everything you're doing (which means thinking about three or four things at once, which is enough to make anyone nervous). With practice you can do the job of driving without thinking about it, and use your conscious attention to think about driving well (and in the right direction).

Which is also, perhaps, why "Craigie" had his/her confidence knocked so badly - if you were confident that your voice would go where you told it without having to think about it, it would be pretty nasty to be told that your voice wasn't going where you thought it was.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 06:48 AM

I've quoted this before, but I think it worth repeating here.
It comes from a series of interviews we did with Ewan MacColl which stretched over a period of six months from mid 1978.
W had raised the question of 'work getting in the way of enjoyment of singing', something that was raised every time we tried to promote the idea of working on singing.
Jim Carroll

"Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better.
The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training, it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical
The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song."

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: cooperman
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 06:17 AM

Come on guys. Is the goal in trying to get it right about pleasing the audience or not looking stupid? A bit of both I suspect for me and many others. Beginners start out thinking too much about themselves rather than the audience. As you become more confident you swing towards pleasing the audience. Interestingly, you can swing back the other way without realising it (eg. by not doing new material)in an effort to keep pleasing the audience. I guess it's easy to forget about what the audience is looking for so I prefer 'unaware'. Selfish (or arrogant) is the person who says 'I play what I want and if they don't like it, tough'.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 05:17 AM

CS - I'll gladly moderate "selfish" to "perhaps unaware". :-)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 04:56 AM

canal wheeler, I was trying to be diplomatic and also humourous, since you choose to be rude, I will not pull any stops,
your problem with this other guy is YOUR problem, in other words look at yourself, you object to some guy playing his guitar before the start[ whats wrong with that], you object to him playing during the break because it prevents you tuning up your guitar, well find another room to tune up, has it occurred to you that some people might possibly prefer his guitar to your tuning.
if i was running the club i would encourage someone to play guitar during the break, i prefer to have someone playing guitar than someone tuning.
no, I do not think using a crib sheet is a good idea,that is not the way to learn how to perform.
canal wheeler.you said "At least they are making a go of presenting some variety, even if they do get it wrong".
so you think its ok to have variety if the standard is poor., and you seem to think its ok to use crib sheets.
I prefer to have someone perform the same three songs well than somebody having a go who is using a crib sheet, changing key during their songs, or other poor performing.
in my opinion the art of performing is learning to cover mistakes without going to bits,and learning to communicate with an audience., having a crib sheet does not help this at all, neither am i convinced it helps a persons confidence.
in my opinion if someone is having difficulty learning words they should find easier song formats like shanties, or story songs with every other line refrains[such as the swan swims so bonny] this enables the singer to have time to think of the next line
finally, i am not a troll or illiterate,I know nothing about you, but let me tell you I have been performing and writing songs on a professional basis for 37 years, I would advise you to mind your mouth and manners.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 04:32 AM

happily announced that he hadn't played his next song for "twenty years"

Ow. I wouldn't actually mind hearing that from a newcomer - particularly someone who'd drifted in from the rest of the pub that evening - but I take it this wasn't.

The trouble is, there are FCs and singarounds which are set up precisely on the basis that anyone can come along and have a go - and anyone does. After a while there's a kind of critical mass of regular anyones, and it starts to seem a bit discourteous or arrogant to learn a song properly before you go up.

My main singaround manages to avoid this - it welcomes newcomers & doesn't frown too hard on songbooks, but there's a core of regulars who are good enough to keep the standard up.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 04:11 AM

I don't know if all the people who fail to think about the audience are 'selfish' Will, I think quite a lot of them are the sort of people who lack the kinds of social awareness and even self awareness that most people possess. Take the man at a club near me (I don't go any more) who happily announced that he hadn't played his next song for "twenty years" but the last time he had, the lady who ran that club had told him it was "very nice". I don't think he actually realised before he began that not having played the song for twenty years was likely to result in him now not being able to play it at all. That may seem amazing to most folk, but there are those odd marginalised people - who my Mum would call "a bit unfortunate" - who come to folk clubs, I think specifically because the polite welcoming ethos doesn't exclude them unlike many other social environments. I don't think they're selfish, I really think they aren't aware of the unspoken social codes that most other people take for granted.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Oct 13 - 12:24 AM

I cannot imagine any circumstance where I would be critical of someone else's performance at a singaround. Likewise when the person I am visiting breaks out the photo album and shows me all the old family pictures I would never say, "very nice, but oh my goodness, that's an ugly baby isn't it?" or "why on earth did your mother wear that to your wedding?"

If a singer pulled me aside one day and asked me for advice on their musical performance - I probably would not, unless I had a close enough relationship to ceratin that I could frame a comment that would actually be helpful.

Nobody's baby is ugly. Nobody song sucks.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,John Routledge
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 08:07 PM

Will Fly - Brilliant nails most of it in one.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 08:00 PM

Phil: cw -" I'm sorry to say this sounds like a case where high standards can be counterproductive. Sounds like perfection is the norm and he fears his new stuff won't pass muster."

Well, in his case it must be his own standard of perfection that daunts him. We have other singers who are nowhere near his standard of performance, yet they are accepted by everyone. At least they are making a go of presenting some variety, even if they do get it wrong.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 03:37 PM

"every week to the extent that I was getting bored with them!"
There's a cure for that as well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 03:37 PM

The problem with all of this, is that all the conversation, all the talk, all the discussion, seems to be about the performer.

What about the audience?

Is the performer who shuffles his/her music, fiddles with the music stand, reads from a notebook, forgets the words, goes back to the beginning, stumbles, mumbles, etc., concerned with the audience? Doesn't sound like it. More like they're totally concerned with themselves.

It doesn't matter whether you're at a club, a singaround or a session. If you don't think about the reaction you're going to get from other people, then you're actually self-absorbed, uncaring about other people - selfish.

Perhaps a slightly extreme observation, but one worth thinking about. If you can't bring something to the audience, then why are you there?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 03:32 PM

At a couple of clubs years back I had the problem of being asked to sing the same song(s) every week to the extent that I was getting bored with them!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Phil E
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 02:12 PM

cw - I'm sorry to say this sounds like a case where high standards can be counterproductive. Sounds like perfection is the norm and he fears his new stuff won't pass muster.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea.
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 11:48 AM

Richard Bridge...putting up a link to a performance of mine would be irrelevant.
I'm not criticising poor singers or performers,just those who use word sheets,often to no avail.
I don't use word sheets.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 29 Oct 13 - 10:24 AM

Just to clarify, I do count the guy as a friend of mine, and I respect him as a bloke. I certainly don't 'dislike' him, as has been trolly suggested.

My question has some sincere merit, in that I really don't want to upset him, but he seems oblivious to the fact that most of the audience do get fed up with hearing the same old stuff over and over again.

I did once ask him if he knew others songs. His reply was revealing. He said, yes. He said he practises them, but when it comes to his turn he loses confidence and falls back to what he knows he knows.

I'm not sure how to encourage him to take that leap of faith in himself. Maybe the answer is to suggest using a crib sheet, at least until he feels more confident?

What do the panel think?

Tone