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Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately

Art Thieme 13 Nov 99 - 10:07 AM
lloyd61 13 Nov 99 - 10:47 AM
MMario 13 Nov 99 - 10:49 AM
Áine 13 Nov 99 - 10:59 AM
MMario 13 Nov 99 - 11:15 AM
Peter T. 13 Nov 99 - 11:25 AM
JedMarum 13 Nov 99 - 11:30 AM
katlaughing 13 Nov 99 - 12:55 PM
kendall 13 Nov 99 - 01:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 99 - 01:23 PM
paddymac 13 Nov 99 - 01:35 PM
wildlone 13 Nov 99 - 01:40 PM
Sandy Paton 13 Nov 99 - 01:41 PM
Jeri 13 Nov 99 - 01:42 PM
Jeri 13 Nov 99 - 02:17 PM
lloyd61 13 Nov 99 - 02:24 PM
13 Nov 99 - 02:32 PM
MandolinPaul 13 Nov 99 - 02:41 PM
katlaughing 13 Nov 99 - 02:55 PM
Áine 13 Nov 99 - 02:56 PM
MandolinPaul 13 Nov 99 - 03:13 PM
Áine 13 Nov 99 - 03:25 PM
Kernow John 13 Nov 99 - 03:29 PM
katlaughing 13 Nov 99 - 03:36 PM
catspaw49 13 Nov 99 - 03:45 PM
Peter T. 13 Nov 99 - 03:50 PM
MandolinPaul 13 Nov 99 - 03:50 PM
Áine 13 Nov 99 - 03:54 PM
MandolinPaul 13 Nov 99 - 03:57 PM
MandolinPaul 13 Nov 99 - 03:59 PM
Rick Fielding 13 Nov 99 - 03:59 PM
katlaughing 13 Nov 99 - 04:02 PM
katlaughing 13 Nov 99 - 04:30 PM
catspaw49 13 Nov 99 - 04:37 PM
bbc 13 Nov 99 - 04:51 PM
Peter T. 13 Nov 99 - 05:35 PM
lloyd61 13 Nov 99 - 06:04 PM
Lonesome EJ 13 Nov 99 - 06:19 PM
JedMarum 13 Nov 99 - 06:26 PM
kendall 13 Nov 99 - 06:34 PM
katlaughing 13 Nov 99 - 06:42 PM
Bugsy 13 Nov 99 - 06:53 PM
Helen 13 Nov 99 - 06:54 PM
Bugsy 13 Nov 99 - 06:54 PM
Bugsy 13 Nov 99 - 06:56 PM
Bill D 13 Nov 99 - 06:59 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 99 - 08:52 PM
_gargoyle 13 Nov 99 - 09:45 PM
Rick Fielding 13 Nov 99 - 09:51 PM
Little Neophyte 13 Nov 99 - 09:56 PM
Chet W. 13 Nov 99 - 11:43 PM
katlaughing 13 Nov 99 - 11:46 PM
Nancy-Jean 13 Nov 99 - 11:48 PM
_gargoyle 13 Nov 99 - 11:48 PM
Áine 13 Nov 99 - 11:50 PM
_gargoyle 13 Nov 99 - 11:53 PM
catspaw49 14 Nov 99 - 01:10 AM
bseed(charleskratz) 14 Nov 99 - 04:34 AM
Llanfair 14 Nov 99 - 05:00 AM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 14 Nov 99 - 06:18 AM
katlaughing 14 Nov 99 - 08:50 AM
Jeri 14 Nov 99 - 11:14 AM
Peter T. 14 Nov 99 - 11:15 AM
Áine 14 Nov 99 - 11:43 AM
Art Thieme 14 Nov 99 - 12:10 PM
Pete Peterson 14 Nov 99 - 12:26 PM
Bruce O. 14 Nov 99 - 01:42 PM
selby 14 Nov 99 - 01:49 PM
MandolinPaul 14 Nov 99 - 02:17 PM
katlaughing 14 Nov 99 - 02:23 PM
MandolinPaul 14 Nov 99 - 02:25 PM
Lesley N. 14 Nov 99 - 02:26 PM
Áine 14 Nov 99 - 02:28 PM
14 Nov 99 - 02:35 PM
MandolinPaul 14 Nov 99 - 02:40 PM
Rick Fielding 14 Nov 99 - 02:49 PM
Peter T. 14 Nov 99 - 02:57 PM
wildlone 14 Nov 99 - 03:08 PM
katlaughing 14 Nov 99 - 03:36 PM
Bruce O. 14 Nov 99 - 03:43 PM
MandolinPaul 14 Nov 99 - 03:50 PM
Art Thieme 14 Nov 99 - 03:53 PM
Chet W. 14 Nov 99 - 04:00 PM
katlaughing 14 Nov 99 - 04:08 PM
Mudjack 14 Nov 99 - 04:26 PM
Bill D 14 Nov 99 - 04:28 PM
Little Neophyte 14 Nov 99 - 04:58 PM
Peter T. 14 Nov 99 - 05:53 PM
Rick Fielding 14 Nov 99 - 06:19 PM
kendall 14 Nov 99 - 07:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Nov 99 - 08:26 PM
Bruce O. 14 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM
catspaw49 14 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM
annamill 14 Nov 99 - 09:09 PM
kendall 14 Nov 99 - 09:34 PM
Little Neophyte 14 Nov 99 - 09:42 PM
catspaw49 14 Nov 99 - 09:58 PM
Jeri 14 Nov 99 - 10:20 PM
Little Neophyte 14 Nov 99 - 10:30 PM
SeanM 14 Nov 99 - 10:49 PM
Barry Finn 14 Nov 99 - 11:08 PM
Bill D 14 Nov 99 - 11:46 PM
Metchosin 14 Nov 99 - 11:51 PM
Charlie Baum 15 Nov 99 - 12:24 AM
JedMarum 15 Nov 99 - 12:54 AM
Metchosin 15 Nov 99 - 01:21 AM
Rick Fielding 15 Nov 99 - 02:31 AM
catspaw49 15 Nov 99 - 07:42 AM
katlaughing 15 Nov 99 - 09:22 AM
catspaw49 15 Nov 99 - 09:38 AM
Art Thieme 15 Nov 99 - 10:42 AM
Mary in Kentucky 15 Nov 99 - 10:55 AM
Lonesome EJ 15 Nov 99 - 03:25 PM
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Subject: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 10:07 AM

I'm ready to join Gargoyle. Where are the threads about folksongs?? Very frustrating. I can probably stay away a week now and, on checking in, only find one or two threads that pertain to the expressed reasons for this site---folk music. I do realize that a while ago I started one of the worst of the B.S. threads---but I was stiving, then, to point up the vacuousness of what were yet to be called "the B.S. threads".

I am here and now advocating total censorship!!

Max, take charge of your site. Please delete the s***. I, for one, am tired of wading through it.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: lloyd61
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 10:47 AM

Now, Now Art, don't get yourself all upset. Most of the folks who come to this site are all of a like mind, they have a passion for the "Music", but they live in a real world and have other interests and concerns, out side of music, where else can they go to find input from others how share their values? Even if it is about Vacuum cleaners, Besides there is a song in this subject some place. As I wade through the BS I still find a great deal of Folk Music.

One more thing, I sat through MANY of YOUR concerts, because you are still my favorite, and there was a lot of BS in your concerts that was not Folk Music, so settle down and enjoy your friends no matter what they talk about.

Love…..Lloyd


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MMario
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 10:49 AM

Art - in the last 4 days there have been 40 threads dealing with lyrics, lyrics added, lyric requests, etc. this is more than there were in the first 6 months of operation of the MudCat. granted there is a lot of other stuff, but i would say not only is the Mudcat healthy, but it is alive and well and doing it's business very well. Of course this is only my opinion. It is a simple matter to screen the threads if you want to eliminate the BS. especially since I was able to determine that in less then a minute after reading your post.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Áine
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 10:59 AM

Dear Art,

I'm sorry to see that you're that upset about the BS threads. And you're right to call the 'class' back to order. However, I did a 'refresh' for the past 7 days on the forum and the majority of the messages were about music, so I don't think that the expressed reason for the forum has disappeared.

Looking at the forum in the context of 'small group dynamics', I think we need to understand that the group will move in different directions at times, but will come back to the original focus that caused it to form in the first place. The forum is, after all, made up of human beings, and humans have this tendency to be curious about many things.

I, too, have on occasion scanned the forum for several days without finding too much to spark my interest. However, I keep coming back, and eventually, there are threads that I become very interested and active in, as well as threads that give me ideas about things I want to ask about.

So, Art, it may be a drab week now and then, but have faith in your fellow 'Catters.

With warmest regards, Áine

(P.S. I was the lucky bidder for your tape on the Mudcat Auction last week and I'm anxiously awaiting its arrival in the mail. Thank you so much for making it available here.)


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MMario
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:15 AM

My apologies. It took only 5 weeks to come up with forty thread on lyrics when the MudCat opened. My previous search was too limiting. Still, I maintain that discussion of music if not necessarily "folk music" in the strict sense of the phrase is alive and well on the Cat.

Art- I can see where your frustration comes from, however.

But since your cassette that was in auction has just closed, maybe you could tell us a little bit more about it, other then you whpped it off in about two hours (if I remember your comment from the bidding correctly.)


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:25 AM

I naturally agree with MMario, being a Threadhead, but to add two new cents to this I have noticed ironically that an increasing number of song threads are not getting past the first two or three responses, because the answer is in the DT now. There used to be more threads about songs because people here were still looking around for the lyrics, and in the meantime they would chat about them, and spark a more interesting exchange of lyrics. The site is probably just getting mature (not in the joke sense, for sure). The people here have chopped a lot of wood, and now they are sitting by the fireside reaping some of the benefits. We could probably start at the "A"s and work our way through the DT to polish, query or add new verses, but that is not like the earlier spontaneous stuff when we were filling in the basic gaps.

The law of percentages is beginning to catch up on queries for English-speaking folk songs that people out there have heard -- I mean, we are up to almost 10,000 songs here. I think it is just a rhythm. I believe we have only scratched the surface of folk music here, but it is a pretty good surface. We could also dig for more foreign material or more specialty material: German, Italian, Spanish, French. But we would have to actively proselytize. And to be blunt, I don't recall reading an Art Thieme posting in awhile asking for information from Mudcatters about some new field of folk music, other ranges of folk songs, new artists, etc.
I am not attacking you personally, but we are past the swapping of lyrics to "Down in The Valley" stage. If you want interesting folk song discussions, start generating them!!! yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:30 AM

I'd like to have all the sitcoms and night-time soaps removed from my TV list, too. The last thing I need in my life is Roseanne teaching me a morality lesson on the subject of homophobia, or some such drivel.

But the TV gods don't care much for my opinion, so I cruise on past Ms McBeal, and skip over ER and Freinds and focus on PBS, maybe a sports event, now and then. What I find there is pretty rich pickin's!

When I come to Mudcat; I read lots, answer a few, ask a very few - and my main purpose is to pursue my folk music interests. So what if I choose to dabble in the odd political discussion. It seems to me most threads are music related.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 12:55 PM

Oh, Art, I am sorry it has gotten to you, lately. I think Peter made some good points, as did the others, but i have to admit, even I, an avowed BSer, have been a bit dismayed at the subjects of the BS threads lately and their quantity. A lot of them seem to be vacant-headed as opposed to some of the bs threads of the past and I have not posted to several of them just because their titles have put me off. I am guily of starting the Happy Thoughts one as a sort of antidote to the pall of depression that was hanging over us all last Wednesday with the radio show, Harry Fox and all.

I think there are two kinds of BS threads, those that focus on the serious and lighter sides of very interesting issues, such as xenophobia, classic Thieme, Vietnam, and cacaphony, to name a few of my favs, and those that deal with what I think of as real inanities like some of the ones we are seeing now.

You know we've talked about how these things go in cycles and do balance themselves out. I had wondered why we hadn't been seeing much of you lately, Art. I am actually glad to know it was for this reason, rather than something to do with your health. Please don't follow GG. You are a leader here and an important and beloved part of the Mudcat for a lot of us and you have much to contribute. Start a few threads of the type you want to see more of and we will join in.

luvyaKat


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:09 PM

I would like to see ALL non music related stuff have the BS prefix. Dont we have such a rule? If so, lets honor it.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:23 PM

So is this thread non-related to music or related? Some threads start off talking or asking about something directly related to a song, others start off as BS, and then get into songs.

Anything you can talk about can get you into music.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: paddymac
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:35 PM

Many good and valid points are made above, but let's not forget that the creative muse may strike anywhere, anytime. Just in the last 48 hours we've seen the creation of a sure-to-become-a-classic *BG* parody (How much is that kitten in the window) dealing with the apparently wide-spread problem yet esoteric topic of cat farts. Now, tell me, is there another place in either the real or virtual world that can be said to truly foster such creativity? Not to mention a catchy verse to "Girl I Left Behind". I wasn't around when the thread categories were established, but they are a fine first-stage filter mechanism. Treat yerself to a pint & a jimmy and relax, secure in the knowledge that you're still loved and respected, despite a curmudgeonly moment.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: wildlone
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:40 PM

Dear Art I am a relative newbie I came to the DT[as most of us did]looking for lyrics,liked what I saw and stayed.
I have joined in the BS threads even started a few,added lyrics I have got that are not in the DT.
I feel we are part of a international group with many different aspects so we chat and "catterwall" so what.
As a UK advert used to say "its good to talk".wl.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:41 PM

It's not a rule, Kendall. It's just something I once suggested to make it easier for us folk fogeys to skip over a few threads we simply didn't have time to investigate for "folk music" content. I find that I often scan through "BS" threads rather quickly now, but I don't ignore them completely, because I do enjoy reading some of the exchanges of ideas and concerns. Let's remember, even if we're sometimes disappointed in it, that the Mudcat is a virtual community of folk music enthusiasts and the "BS" threads actually serve to give it a human, rather than a purely academic nature.

Art: I've been a bit worried about you, and intended to write a personal e-pistle when things settled down here a bit. I'd hoped you would be able to make it to the Gerry Armstrong Memorial Concert on October 31st, although I knew it would be a tough trip for you. I'm glad we were able to participate, but we all missed you there.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:42 PM

Kendall, there is no rule about the BS prefix. I personally don't have any problem figuring out threads about vaccuum cleaners or cat farts aren't likely to be about music. Are folks really having a problem with this? I've seen people use the BS prefix for anything not related to a song - discussion of festivals, instruments, and lately, copyright issues. Shall we argue "what is BS?"

One or two threads in a week? I just counted 36 in the past 24 hours that appear to me to be about individual songs and folk music in general.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 02:17 PM

Now that I've thought about it...

People often respond to the "too much BS" viewpoint by saying "if you want more music threads, start them." I think it might be fun and educational if there were a recurring topic, sort of like Peter T.'s "Thought for the Day" called "Song for the Day - (song name)." People could post a new song, or refer to one in the database, and perhaps tell a story about how or where they learned or heard the song, an anecdote about the author, historical facts, whatever.

For those who are now thinking "if you want to see a song for the day thread, start one," I don't know all that much about the songs, so I mostly read what others say. I'm rather an expert at BS, though.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: lloyd61
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 02:24 PM

Something to think about, I started 4 threads called "A Gig to remember…" they lasted a day with a few responses, then I started a thread called "A Gig from Hell", it lasted a week with many responses. What does that say about Mudcat people? I think it says volumes.

We need to keep our focus but also our freeeom.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From:
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 02:32 PM

I've come to the conclusion that on the internet bigger just means worse (and usually more expensive). So many options in a menu that it takes forever to find the simple one you want [like finding what you want here].


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 02:41 PM

Art,

You will probably think I'm an arsehole for saying this...
Get over yourself.

When you're at a party, and the topic of conversation doesn't interest you, do you:
a) Have a hissy fit at the other guests, telling them you hate this line of conversation.

b) Go whine to the host, "Aww come on ... make them stop".

c) Try to gracefully steer the conversation in a direction you're interested in.

OR

d) Quietly leave the others to enjoy themselves.

If your answer is A or B (and I believe it to be both), then repeat after me, "I have behaved like a child."

If your answer is C or D (and I believe it ain't), then you have behaved appropriately.

To summarize: If you don't like the conversation, try to start your own, or get out.

Just my opinion. I hope you don't leave; you quite often have wonderful insight to add to the threads.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 02:55 PM

Paul S. one of the nice things about the Mudcat is we try to be tolerant of one another and respectful. I am sory, but I think your posting is really harsh and uncalled for. Art expressed an opinion, something we all do on here constantly without getting so personal and nasty.

Art, please stay. You are one of the main *icons* of teh mudcat that keep me here. If it weren't for the Mudcat I might never have met you and your incredible career of music and giving.

luvyaKat


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Áine
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 02:56 PM

Paul S. -- Here's a much more discreet and succinct way of stating your point:

Is not better to light a candle than to curse the darkness?

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:13 PM

Kat and Aine:

If you found my posting harsh, then it probably was. But I found Art's posting to be equally harsh. Was he being "tolerant and respectful"?

I didn't say that he should leave. As I said, I hope he doesn't, because his usual input is valuable.

His message just sounded frustrated and rude, so I told him what his options were. Was anything I said really incorrect? Would you have rushed to his defence if the original message had been posted by Gargoyle? I think your response would have been much different. But no matter who it comes from, it was rude.

That's all.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Áine
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:25 PM

Dear Paul,

Thou protests too much, I fear.

You should know by now that both Kat and I have a habit of standing around with fire extinguishers in our hands.

Of course you can express your thoughts any way you want to. I think Kat and I both just want everyone to 'keep it above the belt' and 'out of the cow pies,' that's all. (And Kat, if I'm speaking out of turn here on your part, put the red thingy down and I'll go for my mop bucket).

Respectfully, Áine


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Kernow John
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:29 PM

Art
At the risk of being thought harsh or rude I have to agree with you.
It drives me nuts having to wade through a list of BS. threads looking for something on music and more often than not missing it.
Sadly it seems we are in a minority.
Regards Baz


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:36 PM

Ditto, Aine. Thank you for putting it so well.

Paul, I did not find Art's too personally rude to anyone specifically, while yours was a specific attack on him. You did specifically tell him to "get out" if he didn't like it. Considering his history here and his history as a well-loved folk artist, that was rude.

And, just to be clear, there is no way in hell I would EVER compare Art to Gargoyle. Art has comported himself on here with predictable grace, caustic humour, vast knowledge, and a lifetime of experince he is constantly willing to share. GG doesn't even come close.

As a person with a disablity, I also find your example of the party to be mean and childish. Art has made no secret of his being pretty much housebound due to MS. Art, I apoligise to you, here, for making this an issue, because I know YOU don't, but Paul, I found this example to be thoughtless and hurtful to anyone who isn't able to circulate much due to physical limitations.

kat


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:45 PM

Can I assume that's over now?

Art, your point is made and I think everyone that BS's around here gets to feeling the same way at times. I read a ton of lyrics threads, but as Peter said, we're covering some old ground and many new requests are quickly answered.

I'm not too enamored of some of the BS threads lately, like the Millenium song nonsense, and I said so. Some of the others simply pass the time til a good topic comes along. I enjoyed the "Rosewood" thread a lot and some of the seeming nonsensical ones have turned into interesting discussions...very typical. Sometimes I post, sometimes I don't. Tony Burns Sweeper thread strikes me as just a friend asking advice.

I think that in the main, there are generally several threads that have merit for me outside of general crappola. Right now, I'm tracking a dozen with interest...everything else is just there and I may or may not bother. Last week I was only watching a couple. So I put up some posts on the total BS threads and have a good time. I don't find it too hard to separate the chaff.....but every now and then, there ain't too much grain. Right now, for me, its OK.

Like Sandy, I've been a bit worried and missing you too. Don't run off........Start a topic like Kat said, that really interests you. Once again, you seem to have started a good one here!!??!!!??!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:50 PM

Well, I didn't help much with my tone, for which I apologise to Art and to others. It comes from having to work on a Saturday (again), and ignoring kat's wise thought for today. I was responding (a) to Art's advocation, even jokingly, of total censorship; and (b) the idea of staying away for a week and then checking in to "find" something interesting (I quote). In the last 5 days, I have been privy to discussions about "The Big Ship Sailing", which brought out fascinating material about children's games and memories of the Manchester Ship Canal; about who wrote Joan Baez' version of "Annabel Lee" and got a message from the composer himself about playing for Mimi Baez' wedding, and his hopes for his new opera "Rostam"; I have had e-mail discussions generated from threads from people about minor key songs in Cole Porter; about Son House's burying place; about the new rerelease of Gram Parson's bio "Hickory Wind"; about Richard Thompson's "Beeswing" including a possible new recording by an artist I have never heard of; and the roots of the British folk scene in the 1970's about which I know nothing, even though I lived there at the time. I am not trying to brag: I am only pointing out that this can be a working site as well as a check in site. And I am seriously ignorant, and not even trying - this takes about 15 minutes a day. It is a gold mine: I am rewarded every time I get in here, by the music stuff that pours out here, and that is well before the often overthetop fun of the BS stuff. I have nothing against checking in -- I know lots of people who never post anything -- but there is a lot more going on here if one wants it. It can be a tool for new discovery. I am constantly amazed at the masses of music knowledge people are willing to send me, or post, for free and all because of this site.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:50 PM

Kat:

Christ! Get over it.

How in the hell am I supposed to know about anybody's illnesses. I have never seen anybody mention this in a thread.

Allow me to re-iterate. My point was that if a person isn't interested in what is being said someplace, they have two options:
1. Start a new line of conversation.
2. Leave.

If my response seemed personal, it is because I was responding to what one person typed; of course it's personal. I am not going to quote the original message and tell you what parts of it pissed me off. I have already blown off the related steam and gotten over that; it wasn't a big deal.

Please tell me again what a dink I am!


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Áine
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:54 PM

Dear Paul,

You're a dink.

Now, let's all get over it.

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:57 PM

Thanks Aine.

Now I feel better.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:59 PM

-Aaaaaaaaaaaah-

-ooooooooooooooooooo-

(The sound of Paul taking a deep breath.)


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 03:59 PM

35 years ago I joined a bluegrass organisation in Toronto. There were about 10 folks in it. We got together and played. We yakked a lot about The Stanley Bros. The Lonesome Pine Fiddlers, Buzz Busby, Reno and Smiley, and even the "commercial" bands like Flatt and Scruggs, Bill Monroe, The Country Gentlemen, and The Green briar Boys. The playing was at a pretty advanced level because we were all "serious nerds" and practiced for hours and hours to get it "right". As the months went by, newcomers joined who just flat out loved the music..but saw no difference between "Don't Let Your Sweet Love Die" and "Fox on The Run". After a year, there were far more recent arrivals than veterans, and "Fox on the Run" became the order of the day. I loved the atmosphere, but the music was no longer (what I called) "Bluegrass", and the skill level had plummeted to "hootenany level". I left...a bit sadder, but not so sad that I felt the need to insult anyone for "poluting my private little stream".

I used to go on a fairly regular basis to a club that was well known for giving artists a chance to try out new material. No pressure, no pay, frequented by the young and the old. It was a great idea and became popular. With popularity came performers who thought of their 12 minute slot as a mini-concert, complete with attitude, diary-songs, and little coteries of friends and family, who would noisily exit immediately after "their" performer had finished unplugging. The "workshop" atmosphere was gone forever. So I left. Just wasn't my scene anymore. Because of my veteran status, had I thrown out a few parting shots about the "level" the club had sunk to, some would have listened, and more than a few would have been hurt. Nope, it wasn't my playpen any more so I left to find (or start) another one. The club still flourishes, and I guess that very few grumble about the "level of quality".

Human nature insists that every gathering of people eventually "congeals" into a "group" complete with a very definable pecking order. People appoint themselves (or get appointed) in certain roles. When I joined a year ago, it was quite obvious to me who was the "moral voice" (and moral voice in waiting) who were the sages, the jester, the designated complainers, the saints and the sinners. There were folks who had a ready audience for their newest poetry - and who wouldn't want an audience as uncritical as Mudcat? I found it great fun, and discovered over a few months that very few took these "roles" terribly seriously. Well, that's a pretty attractive community, and I guess word spread, so more people joined (the "masses" as Gargoyle calls them publicly, and others, probably under their breath) and naturally the roles became less clear. A couple of weeks ago, a newby professed to not know whether Art was male or female!! For Shame! A few of us jumped on the newby with outrage, (humourously, I hope) but I can understand.
A few years ago I helped start a "swing guitar" club in Toronto. These days if I walked in on a session, there might be only 3 or 4 members who'd know me from Adam. To the vast majority of current members, I'd just be some middle aged guy with a guitar invading their space. If I wanted to be accepted I'd have to take out the instrument, and do some SERIOUS playing. I might feel like putting in the effort, but I might not. But I won't dump on them for writing a bunch of "brand new" Django songs, and perhaps not knowing everything about his life. If I'm friendly, and patient, the odd one will click in that I'm a good resource, and start asking questions. That's probably how my role has evolved in that group.

Change is hard, but it's also good. It's just not good for everybody.

Rick (after a full week of migraine. Jeezus!)


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 04:02 PM

Whatever


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 04:30 PM

That last one of mine was written before I read your, Rick. Point taken and put very well.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 04:37 PM

Well those all piled up at the same time just about.

Rick my friend, you need to have migraines more often.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: bbc
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 04:51 PM

My turn--I haven't been saying much lately & I haven't been readin much lately. The first, too busy & the second, not much of interest to me. Having said that, I have no intention of leaving Mudcat. I value the creative, fun people here & I know that, in time, threads will come around that I want to read & participate in. I'm here for the long haul.

bbc


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 05:35 PM

Don't listen to that evil Cpaw, Rick. Fewer migraines, all the time, please.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: lloyd61
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:04 PM

Some place up the line someone commented about the "Rosewood" Thread. That thread makes it all worth while! If a thread like that comes around now and then, who can complain about the SB. The BS thread is just a little fun between the Gems. We should be creatful for everyone who wishes to support this site.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:19 PM

Paul, I think your party analogy is pretty apt. Thing to remember is the billing for this Particular Party. Folk and Blues. Some of the folks here, Art included, got to this party at the very beginning, when it was a bit more of a sedate and serious discussion of Music. I came in about 10:15, and had already had a couple beers, so I drifted back and forth between the serious folks in the Living Room, and the newly arrived Party Animals in the Kitchen by the keg. Well, it's about midnight now, the whole party's a bit louder and crazier, but it's a good idea to keep in mind who is giving this party and who was here first. I'm certainly willing to turn my amplifier down so that Art can continue to strum his Martin in the Parlor.I have always been against the "BS" preface for threads, but from here on I will use it when applicable to the ones I create. The least I can do.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:26 PM

Excellent post, Rick.

Change happens, even when it is not what we want, it still may be best - and at any rate rate it is.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:34 PM

I like your idea Jeri.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:42 PM

me, too


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bugsy
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:53 PM

In my experience, when a party gets to a point where it isn't enjoyable/interesting anymore, most people leave. Alternatively, retreat to quiet spot and survay the room until they find a converstation of interest. Not that I'm suggesting you leave the Mudcat.

With the exception of the party analogy, this thread is not very interesting to ME, but that's My problem.

This is all so HEAVY!!!!

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Helen
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:54 PM

Rick,

That jsut about says it all, I think.

It's funny to see similar conversations coming up on the e-mail harplist and there has been a split-off group formed for socialising - which is good in some ways and sad in others (if it becomes an either-or choice for participants, I mean).

I always think of Mudcat as a never-ending folk festival.

There are workshops where I can learn stuff, but I only go to the ones I'm interested in. Although if I happen to poke my head around the door I'll usually hang around for a bit because it is all interesting to a degree, it's just that I'm more interested in some things than others.

There are also concerts and creative workshops where people show their talents or use their creative talents and spark off each other's ideas.

And then there is the party in the kitchen where there is more BS than you could believe possible, lots of laughing and gentle poking fun, but not a lot of anger or ill feeling.

And then there is the serious social and political discussion often combined with the song & poetry writing group. I have my thoughts about this stuff but I tend not to join in, for various reasons - not the least of which is I prefer some of the other activities including playing, listening to music or learning stuff.

So, I don't have to be involved completely in every single Mudcat activity to enjoy the festival - I choose what I want to be involved in and the thread, the link, the focus, the hub around which it all revolves, which keeps me involved is folk and blues music.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bugsy
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:54 PM

In my experience, when a party gets to a point where it isn't enjoyable/interesting anymore, most people leave. Alternatively, retreat to quiet spot and survay the room until they find a converstation of interest. Not that I'm suggesting you leave the Mudcat.

With the exception of the party analogy, this thread is not very interesting to ME, but that's My problem.

This is all so HEAVY!!!!

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bugsy
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:56 PM

OOps! Sorry, Didn't mean to bore you with the same comment twice. Didn't think it posted first time.

It's a bit like being at a loud party and not being sure whether your comment has been heard above the din!!

Drinks anybody?????

cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 06:59 PM

nothing worth opening?....why, there is a new thread about that renowned folk singer, Bo Diddley!...


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 08:52 PM

I've just counted upmthe current threads with the time tjhintg set at one day. I got to eightfour and I lost count. There are fifteen identified as BS, some of which are very much about musical issues (like copuywright and the Harry Fox agency) and I made it about as many who aren't so identified that would count as such, including this.

The problems isn't so much that the song threads you want are drowned out by the BS thgreads, it's that there are so many song threads around that it's so easy to miss ones you'd like to follow up.Like the Rosewood one, which I had missed, and only found about through this "BS" thread. So it's been a very valuable thread.

I think jeri's idea makes a lot of sense, for it's own sake, and I hope someone will start it up and service it. But I don't think there's any way of avoiding this kind of traffic jam, without losing more than we gain. I was thinking whether it might be possible to have some kind of filtering process for people to use as and when they want to - and then I noticed that "Filter" thingy up the top of the index page, so maybe it's already there. The FAQ guide to navigating the site would be useful.

But even if filtering is available, I doubt if I'd use it much - I like the serendipity aspect of it all, like wandering round the party and overhearing the conversations till you find one that's more interesting than the others. Or listening to the pick-up groups playing in the bars at a festival till you find someone you want to listen to, or join in with.

As for Paul S's comment that one of the things you do when you're bored at a party, or have had enough, or are feeling generally out of sorts, is to leave - I didn't read that as a insult, as him saying "get lost for ever" to Art. Surely he was just elaborating on what actually happens in parties? Especially when it's late at night, like now, here - so I'm off to have a kip, and that doesn't mean I'm feeling grouchy.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: _gargoyle
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 09:45 PM

No doubt, the above threads have said it all....

Folk songs are Dead ---- gossip/BS is New and ALIVE.

With over 8,000 postings there is LITTLE MORE to be said or added to the D.T.that hasn't been said before.

If there were a "better place" I would be there - there is not.

Without a refocusing by dick and Susan (to whom this project has exceeded their expectations and to whom this project is now "old") I am afraid this place will soon pass off into "cyber-history."

It was best that "ol' Hickok" went with "Aces and 8's" or else his poor diabetic/alcoholic shell would have been forgotten in the absurity of the dusty west.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 09:51 PM

Perhaps a couple of things to keep in mind: Mudcat is NOT life. Life is mortgages, car insurance, illness, kids, friends death and taxes. Mudcat is our HOBBY. It ain't to be taken seriously. I've made some personal friendships here, that have transended cyber-fun and are now part of my ACTUAL life. THAT I take seriously.
Mudcat is full of surprises..so you don't always need to re-act instantly with guns-a-blazin'. If Art came back in here and said "Ha ha! gotcha goin, like I did last time!" I'm sure some folks would would be racing to say "We knew, we knew! We were just kiddin' as well!" If he wasn't kidding, than it seems to me he was being honest and pretty blunt. So what? Paul's response was also honest and pretty blunt. We've got room for honest bluntness here. My God, Easy rider told me I was an "elitist" 'cause I don't think tabliture is a good way to learn guitar. I haven't lost any sleep over it. Gargoyle was on my case for two solid weeks, even said that my teaching approach had probably discouraged people from wanting to play! Oy Vay!..and I'm still standin'. If bluntness and rudeness were the rule here rather than the exception, there'd be very few of us who'd hang around.
Mudcat (like real life)is Constantly contradictory. I can be enjoying a heated "team rant" a few weeks ago with two of the regulars gravely discussing the "problems" here with "BS", and how new people would be turning away in droves because of the diminished traditional content, and less than a day later see them both participating in the very thing they implied was the problem. They seemed happy and chatty. With almost a hundred and fifty new folks identifying themselves a couple of days later, I had to chuckle a bit, and unless the vast majority of those newbies are just not "folkie enough" for our group, I suspect their welcome here was genuine.
The folk music (and Sandy) brought me here, but it's the diversity, the contradictory nature, the fun, the good writing, and the amazingly forgiving nature of the Cat, that keeps me checking in every day. Try to find all that in real life!

Rick


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 09:56 PM

Dear Art
I am a tadpole when it comes to folk music and the depth of knowledge this community has to offers.
Mudcat reminds me of being in synagogue where the religious men are seriously praying in the sanctuary while I don't understand a word they are saying so I join along with some of my friends to horse around in the hall.
I may not be able to participate yet in many of the music threads, but I still feel I am part of this congregation
Little Neo


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Chet W.
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:43 PM

I must say that if I had started the Mudcat, thinking it to be a meeting place to swap songs and scholarly research, and then it went beyond that and became a real community where people meet and discuss what's important to them (and it is mostly music) and make friends in a way completely different from the Net-chat-room stereotype, I would be very proud indeed. I am grateful to those who did start it and work so hard to keep it going, and I am proud to be a member. If it does fade away, so did Camelot and the Garden of Eden, but it's like a hometown to me and, I suspect, to a lot of you. It's working like a charm. Let's don't change it now.

Chet


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:46 PM

Okay, I've got the message. I felt protective of one of the friends I've made here at the Mudcat, someone who is very dear to me, and yeah, I came out with guns a'blazing. I'll not apologise for feeling protective. I will apologise for being too defensive and accusatory.

'nuff said.

kat


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Nancy-Jean
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:48 PM

"God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do And the eyesight to tell the difference"


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: _gargoyle
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:48 PM

reminds me a sittin' round a NorthMaineWoods cracker barrel

yer a curse'd lot...
all of yer...

every danged one of yer....

an' if the crumbs weren't so damned tasty...
ah wouldn't keep comin' back...


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Áine
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:50 PM

Good on ya, Kat!

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: _gargoyle
Date: 13 Nov 99 - 11:53 PM

laugh-cat....

is it the woman...

or the feline....

or the.....

in you....

which has you rubbing up against any newcomer's leg?


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 01:10 AM

And thanks for those last couple of postings from our member voted "Most Bi-Polar" by the Gang of 12 (hundred).

Rick, skip Peter's advice and stay with them migraines boy...make you real lucid, almost understandable.

Chet, I take back every bad thing I ever said about South Carolina......well, almost all..........some anyway.

Jeri, another great idea. You're really starting to scare the shit out of me. 'Course I can always use a good physic.

Katmyluv, you are and always will be. Your loyalty is never questioned nor is your Irish temper.....and I wouldn't know how to get along without either of them anymore.

Peter, just squeal like a pig and feed the heron, okay?

The 'Cat IS a village, a hometown, a festival....We have a diverse lot and all the descriptions you all have used, sum us up pretty well. The place will continue to evolve and some will come, some will go. Its still one of the most unique places on the Net. Boring? No, I can't see that at all. John OTH just called me "idiosynchratically eloquent." I learn something new everyday here, and as soon as I go look it up I'll be able to figure whether I should kick his ass or not.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 04:34 AM

Art, it's too damned late for you to recant the condoms thread. You did it and we're all* glad. You don't need absolution: you earned your place in heaven many times over, not the least by being one of the people who made me feel at home here when I posted my verses for "Abilene."

I still agree with pre-migraine Rick that the BS designation should be dropped: half the time it is incorrectly used for general interest music threads. And I think having the prefix in the topic box and seeing other threads so designated may encourage the proliferation of pointless poop--and the best BS threads are often not so designated (as this one isn't).

I gotta post this now because my dogs need the potty and if I go with them, AOL will come around and shut me down and I'll lose what I have written...

--seed

*all 12(hundred) of us


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Llanfair
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 05:00 AM

This thread is the epitome of the Mudcat Cafe. It would be nothing without the diversity of character and opinion of the people who use it. Some people post opinions after giving it a lot of thought, some shout before they have thought about it, and often re-post when they have. Some have totally different agendas to most others, some are always light hearted and others take themselves very seriously.
A lot of people visit daily and look at threads that interest them, others appear to be logged on most of the time and post in most threads, others visit when they can, and their words are valued too.
We don't have to like everyone who participates, but as long as we all feel able to express ourselves, and value everyone's opinion, wether we agree with it or not, the Mudcat will continue to thrive.
When people stop participating it will founder.
Hwyl, Bron.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 06:18 AM

Art. I think there is still a lot of interesting things here. They are just less of them in proportion to the ones that you and I don't find so interesting. Rather than call upon Max for cencorship why not call upon his obvious computing acumen to re-arange the threads. Something like when you open up the discussion forum you are presented by menus, say "Lyrics", "BS", "General", and "All". Then people can use the existing machinery to choose their prefix and their posting will get put under the appropriate menu. Those who want to see things as they see them now can choose "All". It should be understood that "BS" doesn't comprise BS about folk music/musicians/instruments

The way I would use it is to open the "General" first hoping to find discussion about folk (in a broad sense) music, musicians and/or instruments. Then I would look at "Lyrics" to see if I can supply any requests, or if there are lyrics I have been looking for. (I include tunes with lyrics.) I would probably only look at the "BS" menu if there is time.

Art, I wouldn't like to see the BS removed from the Mudcat. During my working life I have been a scientist and have attended many "serious" scientific conferences. There was often two or three days to talk with people whose papers you have been reading all year. Even in this high-pressure atmosphere there was still quite a bit of BS. I guess there is a tendency to be interested in the people who have common interests with yourself.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 08:50 AM

Murray, that might work, except for what others have already pointed out: thread creep. There is no telling when music might crop up in a BS thread or vice versa. Then the designation goes out the window and those who choose one of the other might miss something.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:14 AM

Rather than make changes to the entire Mudcat, there may be a way to add a filter that will elminate what you don't want to read, as opposed to selecting what you do want.

I honestly don't understand whether there's a probem identifying the BS threads, whether the problem lies with people's ability to keep from clicking on them, or whether folks are offended at their mere presence.

I've talked to Max and read his posts here, and I'm willing to bet there's no way he'll censor this site. I do NOT want it turned into the sort of place where people are so afraid of straying from the subject and subsequently getting reamed out by the self appointed guardians of the discussion, that they're afraid to post. I do NOT want this to be the sort of place where Ingmar is allowed to post the words to a song, but not allowed to discuss singing it at his granmdmother's funeral, and that he and his grandmother used to go for ice cream on Sunday afternoon, and we called those things that go on top of the ice cream "jimmies," what did you call them? I don't want this to be the sort of place that gives people more reasons not to post than to post.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:15 AM

Catspaw, never use "most unique" in a sentence. Either something is unique or it isn't. (Pigsqueal, baby)
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Áine
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:43 AM

I think Jeri has a good idea there about the filter system; however, I think that it should work both ways, to filter IN what you want read and filter OUT what you don't want to read. The only thing I would worry about when using a filter to read these posts is that I would miss the serendipity of the threads. But, some folks don't cater to serendipity, while a lot of us do.

For instance, where else could you find a discussion, to quote paddymac above, 'dealing with the apparently wide-spread problem yet esoteric topic of cat farts' that inspired a song, and provided an explanation of the Book of Isaiah and a quotation of the poem 'Jabberwocky' from Through The Looking Glass?

Long live the BS threads and their ability to inform and inspire us!!


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 12:10 PM

I probably better go back and re-read my first post to see how I might've provoked all this...

...Very interesting. Actually fantastic. We do bring our own fantasy baggage with us, do we not?

Paul S.---very cute.

Love to all,

Art


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 12:26 PM

I have hesitated posting here thinking maybe it would be best to let Art be the FIRST and LAST poster on his thread. But, where angels fear to read. . . an organization to which I belong has as one of its mottoes "If you don't want it, you can't have any." I think I judge by title and open up about 1/2 of the BS threads, only open the Lry Req threads if i recognize the song and can add something. . .and, and. . . I guess I am glad that I have the choices and can do my OWN choosing. PETE (who is looking greatly forward to meet some fellow Cattters f2f on 1/14/00!)


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 01:42 PM

The trouble with Bugsy's suggestion is that many of the people who leave are the ones who have something worthwhile to contribute to the subject of songs, music and instruments, and one gets left with the blind leading the blind (in every possible direction except relevant ones).

I've seen one folksong Notes and Queries serial that started out well, then died because it correspondents turned it into a hero-worship column, i.e., who sang what on what recording. That isn't what the editor had aimed for, and he dropped the whole thing, and at the end it wasn't any real loss.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: selby
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 01:49 PM

As Someone who has used the database from very early on but only just joined in the discusions, I think of mudcat as a room full of like minded people generaly chatting sometimes I have to look hard to find things that intrest ME personaly and sometimes they are just there waiting for me. It is my descision what I join in and hopefully people react favouable to what is said. Hang in there the party will like life swing your way, sometimes it is nice to go for a walk down the garden and come back into the party refreshed. Keith


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:17 PM

While I also don't read or contribute to many of the BS threads, I think they do have a place. We meet to discuss music, and sometimes we touch on other subjects. If I had never started any BS, I never would have found the inspiration to write my cult classic The Ballad of Wandering Christie, which came about with Bert's suggestion that my BS would make a good song.

Reading back over this, I feel kind of silly. Basically, what I was trying to state in my first posting was what Aine editted to the much more succinct (and tactful): Is it not better to light a candle than to curse the darkness? Things ended up a little out of proportion.

Paul

PS: I think that we have now thoroughly pounded the piss out of the party analogy. I'll be over at the punchbowl.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:23 PM

Oh, sure, Paul, say that the party is over and THEN tell us ta meetcha at the punchbowl! Sure, sure! You just didn't want some of us to know there was a private one going on over there, eh? So what's in that punchbowl anyway??!!***BBBSSSEEEGGG!!!!!

katmilkingitforallit'sworth!


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:25 PM

It wasn't an invitation; it was a warning.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Lesley N.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:26 PM

I too am often frustrated by the lack of threads that interest me. My interest is the history around and behind the songs and mythologies that arise about the songs. I've started a few great threads, been invovled in a few and I've started several that died almost immediate deaths... By and large the threads I'm intrested in don't often last very long, but I also often find treasure.

Despite the fact I don't regularly find what I am truly seeking, I stay. I lurk, sometimes a very long time, until I find something of interest or I have a need for information. There are other places for information, but I'm more at home here than in a truly academic environment (like the Ballad Listserv - which features incredible scholars - so I just sit in the corner and listen, as it were).

As gargoyle says, there is no better place for me out there. So I tolerate the BS - even check it out once in a great while (this being an example). The main thing I dislike about the BS threads is that there seems to be a greater incidence of personal attack (this being an absolutely unscientific and unverified opinion). Given the level of intelligence and knowledge of the people involved in the forum it always leaves me a bit sad.

So I'll come and go as often or as little as I find threads of interest - but I'll keep checking things out because the place is to valuable to give up on.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Áine
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:28 PM

Kat, Paul S. -- Quit putting your fingers in the punchbowl and flicking stuff in each other's eyes!

Everyone please raise your glasses for a toast:

Sláinte agus beannachtaí orainn go deo!

(Health and blessings on all of us forever!)

Now, let's get back to talking about cat farts *BG*

-- Áine


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From:
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:35 PM

I agree with Art and add I was misled about Gargoyle to start but knowing now what Gargolye is like I want to say Hi and I like you Gargoyle :0)

Some people talk about music and some play it. Most of the waffle here is by people who talk/write.

The internet could be a way for some of the people here to get rich and famous however they cannot not make that happen by endlessly writing bullshit to the site! I ignore a lot of posters. Zero information.

News groups are great AGAIN.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:40 PM

Man'o'man.

If I didn't already feel like I had walked on enough thin ice today, I might have typed that last one myself, just to see the reactions.

Paul


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:49 PM

Yow! Bruce. PLEASE tell me who are the "many" who have left, leaving only we "blind folk". I've heard this kind of thing ad nauseum for six months now. Is it only traditional ballad experts who have disappeared? If so, other than yourself, who? how many? Was that the only raison d'etre for Mudcat? I implied once that your leaving was unfortunate, but unnecessarily brusque. Well excuse me for now being unnecessarily brusque, but Jesus H Keerist! There are quite a number of folks here who know a shit-load about instruments and music, and are happy to give help and feedback..complete with an occasional "please and thank you". I'm not as knowledgable as some about ballads, but by God, I've spent 37 of my 53 years so close to folk music, that although I may be blind in the areas of commerce, I hardly think I lack insight when it comes to music.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:57 PM

Favourite Peanuts cartoon (each line is one frame):
LUCY (at window, looking out): "Gee, Linus, it is sure getting dark early these days."
LINUS (nearby, with blanket): "'It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.'"
LUCY (looks out of window, thinks).
LUCY (outside on porch, hand raised in fist): "YOU STUPID DARKNESS!!!!!!"


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: wildlone
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 03:08 PM

Is that a CAT under the punchbowl table?
whodidthattherehere


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 03:36 PM

Pax, Paul. I was joking in the last post. I thought the *BBBSSSEEEEGGG* would give it all away, so no offense would be taken.

kat


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 03:43 PM

Rick, I didn't say it was the blind leading the blind yet, merely that it has happened when a subject lost its focus. As for traditional ballad experts, they have their own subscription lists on the web and rarely contribute here, or even bother to look here. Several Mudcatters are on one of them. So are many quite famous professional folksingers and folklorists who have never contributed here, but who have been mentioned here more than once. Look at the intitials of the early contributors to the Mudcat database and see how many you can identify that are still around on the Forum. One rarely hears anything now from Murray on Saltspring, and when it comes to Scots songs there's never been another contributor to this Forum that is as knowledgable on the subject.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: MandolinPaul
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 03:50 PM

Me too Kat! It's hard to hear the sarcasm in my typing, I guess. I've always felt silly typing chat shortforms like LOL, BG, and the sideways little smiley faces, so in the future, please assume sarcasm.

...and please let's not get too polite with each other. I'm not graceful enough to be walking around on my tiptoes all of the time. I find people way easier to like when they piss me off now and then.

BG, LOL, :-}

Paul


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 03:53 PM

Aye, A PAX on all your houses. **BG**

Art


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Chet W.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 04:00 PM

If any pax gets on my house, I'm suing.

Contentiously, Chet


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 04:08 PM

Oh, well sure, Paul, if'n ya want a little abuse sans pax, no problem. Anybody figured out how to do an emoticon of the one-fingered salute? Let's see, how about ^^I^^, oh well,stand on yer head and it might work! Use your imagination, you lily-livered, sap-sucking, sarcasm-dripping so and so!

katLAUGHINGforsureandgettingreadytodropaPAXonseveralhouses!


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Mudjack
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 04:26 PM

Well Art, it looks like you stirred up some interesting thoughts about the BS at Mudcat. I often go through the same kind of moods or thoughts, but usually try to understand that every thread can't be what I want it to be. I refrain from the Tavern and can't even begin to say why, I guess it's because I don't frequent the places in real life and just avoid the virtual Tavern. I'm probably missing out on something good.
I only mention this hoping you are in a blue mood and will see something there that will capture your attention and you can jump right back in there. I see the MC much like learning songs, By the time I put one to memory from practing over and over, I'm getting tired of it and it loses some of it's excitement. I still like the song, It just seems to lose the excitement I once found in it.Is it possoble you are experiencing the same with the MC/DT? You can't just drop out for lack of bells and whistles.
I probably spend more time on the BS threads than the "music", it's because I can always find the music but I can't always find what some one thinks about regarding the subject of music, or just BS.
Just hang in there partner, we all take our breaks from time to time. The likes of Art Thieme is what makes the MC/DT so great.
Mudjack


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 04:28 PM

Peter...my head is reeling with 4-5 Peanuts cartoons from earlier years that could be quoted here..*big grin*..(I had forgotten that one!)

one old favorite...

LUCY..(talking to Charlie Brown outside).."Charlie Brown, isn't it strange how the edges of the sidewalk just get closer and closer together way down there, until they run right into each other?"

CHARLIE B.."Lucy, the sidewalk doesn't really get narrower down there, it is just an optical illusion that makes it LOOK like it...it's called 'perspective'"

LUCY..stands and stares down the street, then turns to C.B.

LUCY.."Charlie Brown, why do you always wear that stupid shirt with the funny stripe on it?"


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 04:58 PM

Ohhhhhhhh Bruce
The way you put it, I feel like I have to always be dressed for a formal dinner party because famous people might show up when in fact I would prefer to wear my overalls and share a potluck with friends.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 05:53 PM

what the hell --

(Linus and Charlie Brown sitting on the curb. Linus is eating a hotdog)
CHARLIE BROWN: How is that hot dog, Linus?
LINUS: It is O.K. It is just lacking something.
CHARLIE BROWN: What, mustard, relish?
LINUS: You know, Charlie Brown, what this hot dog needs is a baseball game around it.

I use this in my environmental studies classes.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 06:19 PM

Dear Bruce. My apologies for losing my temper. (especially after saying earlier "Mudcat ain't real life..it's a HOBBY folks"). My reaction was strictly connected to part of your earlier post. You said:

"The trouble with Bugsy's suggestion is that many of the people who leave are the ones who have something worthwhile to contribute to the subject of songs, music and instruments, and one gets left with the blind leading the blind (in every possible direction except relevant ones")

I find it unfortunate as well when a serious (or even humourous) discussion on a worthwhile topic (which I think this is), gets interrupted with back and forth comments that have nothing to do with the subject. However the "blind leading the blind" comment was NOT about one thread..it sure seemed pretty general to me..and hurtful. If indeed a number of "serious", and I'm not sure if that means "famous" folks have left, it must have been before I got here this year, so when did Mudcat start becoming too inclusive for them? Perhaps I'll get Peter Ts take on it this week since he's been in from the beginning.
I think I just have too much of that "Pete Seeger inclusiveness" in me. Remember the great quote "Pete taught the world to sing...and we'll never forgive him!!" I know on occasion I suffer in private at the tedium of watching egotistical and unskilled singer-songwriters blathering on, but I've also been around far too many incredibly sincere, but equally egotistical ballad singers so steeped in the tradition and secure in their little group, that I doubt if self-criticism is even a tiny part of their make-up. We have some wonderful ballad singers on this side of the pond, but oh my, the attitude of some of those who feel they are, is powerful.

Ahh heck, who cares? It's still a ton of fun. And I DO apologise for being snarky.

Rick (definitely now one of the infamous "Gang of Twelve")


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: kendall
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 07:03 PM

All I can say is, Those people who think they know it all, are really annoying those of us who do. subtlehinttolightenup.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 08:26 PM

Strikes me, after a few weeks visiting regularly, this is a strangely goodnatured sort of place.

Someone says something mildly cross and they get told off , and then whoever told them off gets told off, and the they apologise, and whoever told them off apologises for telling them off. And so forth.

I'm not complaining about it, or suggesting it's not sincere or anything. But I'm wondering how come (touch wood), the real nasty bastards never seem to turn up and start wrecking the joint.

I mean even gargoyle never gets more than moderately sneery and sarcastic, and that seems to count as being a heavy villain round here.

"Music has charms to soothe a savage beast" (Congreve) - must be the reason. (Yea, I know the standard text is "savage breast", but I've never been bitten by a savage breast yet.)


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bruce O.
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM

It would take an unprecedented level of stupidity on the part anyone to claim that they knew it all when it comes to folksongs and music. The study of folk tunes has barely started.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 08:57 PM

I dunno...Made "Buffalo Wings" the other night with a wonderfully fiery Habanero/Tabasco sauce....Didn't use wings though, used boneless breast cut in strips, kinda' "Buffalo Boobs" I guess. Tell ya what McGrath, those breasts had a "BITE"...if not on the way in, certainly on the way out. I also do not believe that music would help in this case.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: annamill
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 09:09 PM

HEY! What's all this poop, Guys?? Art, I understand what you're saying. My time is sparse and I avoid the obvious silly BS threads now. I didn't when I had more time, but things have changed....and not just for me. Since I joined in May, the one thing I've noticed is the winds of change here at my virtual home. Sometime it's up, sometimes it's down. I tend to totally agree with bbc. I'm in for the haul too. I haven't been able to contribute a lot to the folk/blues threads, but I always read them. I enjoy some of the BS threads and I've been a major contributor myself.

Art, we desperately need you. Don't goway please? You're one of the people that can keep us who we are. I've come to love your wonderful self and would miss your writings terribly. You'd miss us too, you know!

NON BS: Glenn and I were watching a movie last night called Highlander: The Final Demension. A song was played that we played over and over. I have a tape of my favorite movie songs and I recorded this beautiful piece of Irish (I think) music by a woman with such a beautiful voice. The song was "Bonny P... ammora? or something like that". Does anyone know the voice, or the song?? I want to buy her albums and hear more.

We periodically go silly. Don't worry we'll be back.

Love, annap


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: kendall
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 09:34 PM

One of the sad things I have noticed here is the lack of a sense of humor in some members.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 09:42 PM

I'm not sure if it is the lack of humor Kendall. Take a bunch of people, show them the same posting and you will get a bunch of different reactions.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 09:58 PM

I'm sorry Kendall.....I have never had a sense of humor and I fear its too late for me to acquire one now. Do you have any thoughts on where I might go to have one installed? I have found a couple of websites like the one at www.hodihodiho.yuks, but the prices they want are exhorbitant. Alternately, I tried www.hidihidiho.yuks, but this one turned out to be the homepage of a Cab Calloway impersonator with terminal flatulence and a severe stutter. I have met some funny folks here, but they are mainly funny in a psychopathic way and are being treated at the "Neil Young Center for the Terminally Screwed." So I'm left with no way to gain a sense of humor and have decided to opt for a sense touch instead. I plan on feeling all of our female 'Catters first chance I get.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 10:20 PM

Annap, I think (from hearing other discussions on the movie and the song) the song is "BONNY PORTMORE" and the singer is Loreena McKinnit. (I've probably misspelled her name.) Check here, although there's a mistake in the beginning of the MIDI.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 10:30 PM

Catspaw you have robbed me of the image I had of meeting you. Embracing your warm loving nature has been replaced with being pawed by a middle aged appetite.
Little Neo


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 10:49 PM

Hey 'Spaw!!! Those wings sound fantastic! Any chance I could convince you to send the recipe? Habanero ahoy!

In an attempt to keep this somewhat on topic...

I've experienced a bit of the same feeling that I hear a lot of people voicing. Some times, I feel that the BS is the death of this site, sometimes the life. The total sum of my experience all seems to end up with "read what you want, ignore what you want". I may miss some awesome discussions, I may inadvertently derail others, but I'll also hopefully catch some of the best internet musical discussions that I've ever seen, as well as some of the funniest and most intellectually stimulating chat.

All in all, I don't think I'd like to see anyone here leave. Everyone has something to contribute, and everyone has their own specialty. To lose one voice is to lose that piece of the 'Cat... and that's a tragedy all of its own.

M


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:08 PM

Hi annap, try in the DT search Bonny Portmore (maybe Bonnie?).
Hi Bruce & Art, I gotta go along with you as far as there probably is to much BS for some to wade through the rest & yes, I don't see many, hardly any (I lurk there) coming here from the music subscribers, though they may lurk (Dick & yourself aside), definitley to much BS I'd say. This has been (not enough music) rehashed over, though not for some time now. Last time I think we lost Elsie (though it may have been over posting to & asking about pop, rock & other non folk & she always was sure that if you feed stay cats they'll keep coming back) whose posts were very insightful & enjoyable. My own preference would be more meat & less fluff but I find myself enjoying the fluff (when the meat is rare) sometimes rather than shouting "where's the beef". And when I tire of the less filling I guess I just cruise the other places & end up back here within the hour. Now that we're all back to an even keel & we've all kissed & made up maybe we can get back to the party at hand. Barry


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:46 PM

About the issue of 'famous' people coming here, staying awhile..then leaving, either openly or quietly.

In many ways this place is like a big folk weekend..(like the recent Getaway)--(most of you have attended something similar- from a one evening sing to a week-long social/musical/study session)....and you must have noticed the complex dynamics as groups formed, songs were sung, themes altered, new people come in, etc..

....Perhaps you have BEEN one of those who sang for awhile, then decided that the session was NOT going in a way that felt good--either you thought the topics and 'flow' were wrong, or you thought a few folk were hogging the limelight, or, perhaps YOU were one who 'needed' center stage and weren't getting it enough.(naawww...none of THOSE here).....in any case, groups formed, changed, broke up...and re-formed elsewhere.."..hey, Joe, several of us are going over to Sam's cabin and jam..it'll be...umm...more relaxed there.."....

Except...here, if someone doesn't like the mood, flow, topics, balance, etc., they can't just 'move' a bit...To this end, there HAVE been a few suggestions that we have multiple, parallel venues..(music, BS, political...whatever)...There is simply NO easy cure for all this, as we are VERY different people, with different value systems and pain thresholds..(perhaps comfort levels is a better term)*grin*...gargoyle is constantly decrying the loss of the 'old ways'...others are constantly defending the sense of 'community' and such that the BS threads and 'thread creep' bring..for them....

I, for one, am simple amazed that it goes as well as it does, given the diversity here!. Yet, I am NOT surprised, either, having met Max this year and having known Dick Greenhaus for years. They show an uncommon resiliance and tolerance for diversity and seldom stir the soup much....Dick fills the database with stuff for everyone, and Max makes new and better toys for us to play with....and LOOK at us!..sort of like American democracy...except with Australian and British and Icelandic...etc. thrown in...and even with all the amazing things in these societies, there will be those who choose to opt out and go live in the woods..or the outback,,or whatever,...or just lurk..(don't you KNOW shambles is reading some of this!) simply because they do NOT 'work well with others' or can't abide arguments or get overwhelmed by TOO MUCH INPUT!!..........

My friends, we can argue till we are blue in the face, but all we can really do is **KEEP ON KEEPING ON**....Max says he wants an open site full of diversity, and gg wrings his hands and grumps....and Shambles left because...well, he was Shambles and it upset him to be here...(those who have been here awhile know how I used to rant about content!)..

There are things which are simply so good, that even when they are at their worst, they are tolerable.(like sex, or Pecan Pie....(make your OWN list!)...but I put Mudcat on mine.

(probably the longest post I'll make this millenium)


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:51 PM

Can't bring myself to read all the postings, so maybe this has been mentioned, but maybe the BS and silliness goes up when there has been a lot of stress and tension and you need a steam vent.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 12:24 AM

McGrath--one of the things that keeps behavior civil here is that many of us know at least a few other Mudcatters in real life. And we stand a real chance of bumping into a new Mudcatter we haven't yet met when we attend any real-life folk event. So we need to stay friendly, because we're all going to have join in on the choruses in real life.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 12:54 AM

As a relative newcomer (FNG) here, I have found at the Mudcat wonderful commentary on many of the old folk songs I have loved for years, if not in current threads, then in the older threads. Several times during new discussions us FNGs have been directed to old threads on music (Shenendoah had several old, and valuable threads).

I have long used the database, and recently, since joining discussions here I have found many delightful points-of-view, and humorous banter on music, instruments, equipment and general BS.

Maybe the best folkies don't have any interest in our discussions, but I have certainly enjoyed both the people and the information here. I expect to continue enjoying Mudcat for a long time.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Metchosin
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 01:21 AM

Me too. I came here a couple of weeks ago, first to the DT, to find info on some folk song lyrics and possible origins and hung out, reading the threads so I could understand how to post my query. I got so caught up in the enjoyable B.S. and the eductional value of the Mudcat that I almost forgot to post my original question. Everbody has been extremely kind and patient while I have blundered around here for the last while, trying out my first time on an interactive website, and I have learned almost as much on the BS threads as I have on the more serious ones.


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 02:31 AM

Thank you Bill. Wonderful post.
Rick


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 07:42 AM

I agree Rick...Well stroked Wild Bill. And also good and "telling" posts from Liam and Mets.......Both are relative newbies but have fit right in and shown excellent musical stuff along with the BS. And listening to them tells me that the place is alive and well.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 09:22 AM

Well alright then! It's a GO! Goodonya, Bill!


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 09:38 AM

Come to think of it though...........Let's not get too carried away. After all, it is Bill, yuh know? For all I know, Rita wrote it for him. He used words like "uncommon resiliance" and "multiple, parallel venues.".........Sounds a bit fishy to me..............

And I just noticed.......If a "venue" is a place, wouldn't an "avenue" be not a place or no place? If you took an avenue to a venue would you be going from no place to some place? And when or if you arrive, are you greeted by a Lithuanian pants presser named Skeezix?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 10:42 AM

I'm not going anywhere folks. What, mee leave !! I like to add the songs I've found to Mudcat whenever anyone might be looking for something I've found over the years. I just know what I prefer. That's all. We, from the '60s, always thought if we could only write the perfect protest song, everyone would hear it, see the wisdom of it, heed it and change their ways. Hate, bias, racism, war, pollution, the cutting down of trees (and people), nuclear bombs, people stepping on ants and other animals, the sadness of people daring to eat meat-----we were cartain all of it would then disappear from the face of the earth. (We also figured, as Lenny B. used to say, that "marijuana will be legal in the future because all the lawyers I know smoke it!") If we've learned anything it's that this old world and it's intitutions are not as maleable as we once thought they were when we were barely haired out.

But this is a valid and a good discussion. It's what I wanted to provoke. Lately though, I just don't physically have the strength to be on the Internet as long as I might want. Wading through the stuff has got me maybe looking at only the last day of posts and then logging off. Finding less stuff I care about here latly has allowed me the freedom to read more books and tape a movie before I collapse for the day. So keep right on talkin' happiness and favorite insults and bar blather. I'll be lookin' in. It's my way of keeping my hands in the music.

With admiration and affection,

Art


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 10:55 AM

Hi annap,

I too fell in love with Bonny Portmore.

For info, look here.

For Barry Taylor's midi, look here.

Mary


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Subject: RE: Nothing Worth Opening Here Lately
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Nov 99 - 03:25 PM

Art, you have a lot of friends here, and your 2 cents is always appreciated, even when you are stirring up controversy, ya Trouble-Maker.


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