BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:40 AM

""One could say that everyone is entitled to breatheable air, though.""

Only until the Republicans find a way to make everyone pay for it Ebbie. And then things will get really bad for the poor in the US.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Nov 13 - 11:28 AM

""As for Songwronger, I am puzzled as to why you are outraged that they are cutting benefits you oppose.""

S'easy! He and his TEA Party mates wanted to do it themselves, after getting rid of the President.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 02:54 PM

For those who seem to be blundering around in the dark, this is from Wikipedia:

In the United States, Social Security is primarily the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) federal program. The original Social Security Act (1935) and the current version of the Act, as amended, encompass several social welfare and social insurance programs. Social Security is funded through payroll taxes called Federal Insurance Contributions Act tax (FICA) and/or Self Employed Contributions Act Tax (SECA). Tax deposits are collected by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) and are formally entrusted to the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund, the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund, the Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund, or the Federal Supplementary Medical Insurance Trust Fund which comprise the Social Security Trust Funds. With a few exceptions all salaried income has a FICA and/or SECA tax collected on it. With few exceptions all legal residents working in the United States now have a individual Social Security card number. Indeed nearly all working (and many non-working) residents since Social Security's 1935 inception have had a Social Security number since it is required to do a wide range of things from paying the IRS to getting a job.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 01:49 PM

I'm not negating anything. I am just telling you that, according to the government, Social Security is an insurance program funded by a tax, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 09 Nov 13 - 11:07 AM

maybe clear to you, but I fail to see how you can negate the earned income factor... and any skewing to lower income is consistent with current tax rates. The poor still come up short meeting basic needs.

My mom once worked for woman who had married a wealthy, older man... her survivor's benefit was quite nice, what my mom would take 6 months to collect... she used it to treat "the girls" to a monthly lunch at a posh restaurant.

And you failed to mention that the benefits are still taxed on between 50 and 85 percent of the gross distribution, depending on total income.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 08:02 PM

If you think about what ypu've posted, you'll realize that what I said is true--

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 03:36 PM

"The benefit amounts are not calculated based on the earnings from you paid in, they are keyed to the cost of living."

I think you are confusing COLA - cost of living adjustment with benefits. My SS statement is very clear that my benefit is based on earned income - since that is what has been taxed- AND when I decide to start collecting my SS benefits. The system was designed as a safety net for those who earned too little to save or invest and had no pension to fall back on. These days even those with a pension can lose it to bankruptcy... case in point- KODAK.

If you are poor, you stay poor. What will help keep the system solvent is to apply the SS tax to a higher income level. Look at the limits set & it's obvious that the rich (aka highly paid corporate executives, etc.) are skating thanks to the way that inflation has eroded the buying power of the dollar. Apply the tax to a maximum of 250,000 and see what would happen... besides the screaming of the "poor" 1 percenters.

this came from a bank website:

Social Security is based on a sliding scale depending on your income, how long you work and at what age you retire. Social Security benefits automatically increases each year based on increases in the Consumer Price Index. Including a spouse increases your Social Security benefits by 1.5 times your individual estimated benefit. Please note that this calculator assumes that only one of the spouses work. Benefits could be different if your spouse worked and earned a benefit higher than one half of your benefit. If you are a married couple, and both spouses work, you may need to run the calculation twice - once for each spouse and their respective income. This calculator provides only an estimate of your benefits.

The calculations use the 2013 FICA income limit of $113,700 with an annual maximum Social Security benefit of $30,396 per year for a single person and 1.5 times this amount for a married couple. To receive the maximum benefit would require earning the maximum FICA salary for nearly your entire career. You would also need to begin receiving benefits at your full retirement age of 66 or 67 (depending on your birthdate). This calculator rounds your age of full Social Security benefits to the next highest full year. If your birthdate is between 1955 and 1959 your actual full retirement age for Social Security is 66 plus two months for each year after 1954. Your actual benefit may be lower or higher depending on your work history and the complete compensation rules used by Social Security.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 06:35 PM

Actually SW, Social Security is not really pension plan, it is insurance, and what you pay is not a payroll deduction,it is a tax. It was set up to keep people who were too old to work from out of poverty, and the benefits payments are skewed to favor low income people. The benefit amounts are not calculated based on the earnings from you paid in, they are keyed to the cost of living.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 04:03 PM

Don't worry Songwronger. When Cruz takes over he'll abolish Social Security, thereby ending your problem. Don't forget to watch Alash, the throat singers of Tuva via Concert Window tonight at 8 p.m. Be there or be square.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Songwronger
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 10:20 PM

No decent society should turn its back on those who can't help themselves. If people need food stamps, they need food stamps. I don't mind if the money to pay for something like that comes out of my taxes. Better that than spending for war or some other things.

But the news media in the U.S. has been merging this "charity" aspect of giveaways with what I described earlier, the programs we pay for through payroll deductions. The government takes money from our paychecks and TELLS us it will be invested in our Social Security retirement fund. So, I have a right to expect that money back when I retire. I am entitled to that.

Not so with food stamps. Those are paid for out of the general revenue taxes, dispersal of which is up to the whim of congress and the president. Actually I'm surprised anyone in America gets food stamps. Obama promised austerity, said he would "cut waste," and the other party is even more austere.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 09:53 PM

So it appears that for some, when people who've never been unable to work because they're too badly disabled get any help from the public purse that's charity rather than a right.

I can't imagine any decent person thinking that. In fact that would be a way to identify the people who weren't decent people. Too many of them around, I fear. Even here.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 06 Nov 13 - 04:03 AM

It may seem a fine distinction, but rather than being "earned", as a wage or salary might be, entitlements have historically been granted as a consideration for a service--usually military service--and tended to consist of land, an annuity, and, literally, a title, as in "In consideration of heroic service to the King of Someplace in defeating the King of Someplace Else, we proudly grant thee 20,000 Gold Somethings a year for life, 200,000 acres and the title, "Grand Duke of a big chunk of what used to be Someplace Else."

If you were smart, you gave your soldiers each a chunk of land, a Gold Something every year, and hoped to Hell that was enough to keep them from signing up with the King of Someplace Else's brother.

It worked like this, more or less, from time immemorial, up until the end of World War One(in the US, at least), when someone decided to just give the returning soldiers train fare home and a couple bucks pocket money. The returning doughboys, who felt that they were "entitled" to something,made a big fuss and were rewarded with a "bonus" bond scheme that wasn't going to pay anyone anything for another 20 years.

When the depression hit, the a "Bonus Army" camped out in Washington(or near, anyway) demanding that the bonds be paid off early. The army that they once served in was sent out against them, and there was a huge mess. In order to avoid another big mess after World War II, Congress came up with the "GI Bill", and entitlements were back on track.

Those who receive entitlements are encouraged to believe that they have earned them:
"In consideration of working for a lifetime without saving enough money to take care of yourself in your old age, we proudly grant thee $1250 a month and affordable health insurance" or, "In consideration of raising a family of five with out the benefit of matrimony, we proudly grant thee $875 a month stipend , Food Stamps, and a townhouse in a HUD owned development, and affordable health insurance".

In truth, entitlements tend to be granted in order to avoid huge messes of one sort or another. They always have been, and they always will.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 09:41 AM

Yup, Joe, that's RepubliClown Orwellian new-speak for ya.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 02:06 AM

I think that the meaning of "entitlement" has evolved quite quickly over the last few years. In the original sense of the word, "entitled" meant that a person had earned the benefits.

Then came the use of the term "sense of entitlement," meaning that somebody acts like he or she were entitled to something that was NOT earned.

And I think because of that "sense of entitlement" phrase, people (prodded by propagandists) began to understand "entitlements" as NOT earned.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:35 PM

Entitle means "to give claim to". Through legislation, Congress gives people claim to certain benefits. That's what entitlements are. And, as we see in the case of Food Stamps, what Congress gives, it can also take away.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Songwronger
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 08:22 PM

The meaning of "entitlement" has been muddied.

I pay into Social Security, the government invests those payments for me, and at retirement I draw a pension from the plan. The plan I paid for.

Same with Medicare.

I made payments DIRECTLY into those funds, and I am entitled to draw benefits directly from those investments.

The other programs (paid for by general revenue taxes) are not entitlements. They are charities. Doles. Congress decides whether I have access to those. But congress cannot limit my access to Social Security and Medicare. To do so would be theft and fraud.

The news media is conflating "entitlement" and "charity" in its reporting. This is being done in order to facilitate theft from our payroll deduction entitlement programs of Social Security and Medicare. Stir them in with the general revenue programs and then reduce the lot. I could make second graders understand this with a set of blocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 02:30 PM

It may well be that all of those programs are 'entitlements' but to me, the operative word is 'entitlement', i.e. something one is entitled to because of a previous vesting. Most other uses of the word seem spurious to me.

One could say that everyone is entitled to breatheable air, though. :) I guess that the US Bill of Rights also refers to things one is entitled to.

So I dunno. (The older I get, the fewer things I am sure of.)

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 10:50 AM

That just happened to be the most concise definition that I found--it may happen to be true that you paid in to Social Security--that's one of the qualifiers for that particular entitlement(as well as the funding mechanism), but entitlements, which are also called mandatory programs, are grants that the gov't gives to anyone who meets the qualifications that they've set--here is a list of most of the other Federal large scale entitlement/mandatory programs, courtesy of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.(excluding Veterans Benefits)

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, SNAP (formerly known as the Food Stamp Program), SSI, Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), the school lunch program, the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP), the Earned Income Tax Credit, and the refundable component of the Child Tax Credit.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 09:47 AM

Stim, I am "entitled" to Social Security and Medicare for the same reason I'm "entitled" to my car or home -- I paid for them. In the same way I'm "entitled" to my VA benefits -- I "paid" for them, although not with money.

As for Wikipedia, it's a usually somewhat reliable and quick place to look stuff up but if you rely on it you'll eventually find yourself in trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 04 Nov 13 - 03:07 AM

You don't actually understand what entitlements are, Songwronger.
This, at Wikipedia, is a fairly clear definition:

"In the United States, an entitlement program is a type of "government program that provides individuals with personal financial benefits (or sometimes special government-provided goods or services) to which an indefinite (but usually rather large) number of potential beneficiaries have a legal right...whenever they meet eligibility conditions that are specified by the standing law that authorizes the program."

You don't necessarily have to earn or pay anything in to receive an entitlement--it is something that the gov't grants to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 09:53 PM

Well, since the Food Stamp Riots seem to have been either postponed or called off I guess I can put away my guns and take down the sandbags and anti-grenade netting from the windows. Sure glad I live in Idaho, where all of the Reds hang out.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 09:39 PM

Songwronger; a regular Milton Berle.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:59 PM

I recall when Senator Joseph McCarthy said that President Dwight D. Eisenhower (whom he apparently considered an insufficiently Right-Wing Republican) was a "Communist dupe!"

Songwronger, a lot of people (including me) found that pretty amusing.

The peculiar part was that McCarthy was deadly serious!

Your wall-eyed-fit extremism has provided no end of giggles here on Mudcat.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 08:10 PM

Don F: Makes sense to me. I believe my wife has had some success with that approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Songwronger
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 06:26 PM

Well, some time ago I posted the results of a political self-test here. I answered all questions honestly and ended up occupying the same square as Gandhi. If that makes me a conservative, so be it. I think the classification was left of moderate.

I believe in an entitlements program (you pay into Social Security and Medicare, then you're entitled to it when you retire). I have no problem with food stamps, as long as they go to the truly needy. The problem now is that America's industrial base is being intentionally destroyed (by both the Democrats and Republicans), and the fired workers are being forced onto government dependency. However you look at it, that's not good.

Glad I can amuse. You folks wouldn't believe the laughs we get from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 05:55 PM

The chances of changing the minds of committed conservatives or lefties is always pretty slim. That's not my goal.

My goal is to offer a rational counter-argument to the propaganda in hopes that other less committed or non-committed folks won't be sucked in.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 03:41 PM

Don: Good luck with changing the minds of committed conservatives. (or committed lefties like me, for that matter). I have gotten in so much domestic difficulty with that. No more.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don Firth
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:04 PM

I agree with Joe.

People sometimes get on my case for responding to people like Songwronger, Guest from Sanity, and a couple of others here who are laden with propaganda and general misinformation and dispense it at any and all opportunities. I find that confronting them keeps my sword arm limber and my eye sharp for encounters with REAL people when they might prove productive.

By "productive," I don't necessarily mean changing the mind of the person spouting the propaganda, but shortstopping his rants from influencing others.

Plus, there are gullible people, some here on Mudcat, who may be taken in by Songwronger's ranting and raving, and in the spirit of "evil triumphs when good men do nothing," I feel a necessity to try to set the record straight.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 01:17 PM

"Faux Facts-"
Perhaps they could make a dollar or two writing for the sources used by songwronger.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:02 PM

Joe: Having moved to the third most conservative congressional district in the United States, and being blessed with 2 stepsons who, in a debate, can create faux facts at the drop of a hat, I know exactly what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 02:04 AM

You are a wise man, Joe. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 01:57 AM

I keep running into a very self-righteous conservative at church, even though he's moved to a different parish. And this is a guy who falls deep into that "my-shit-don't-stink " category. I have to work very hard to be civil to him, because he's one of the most obnoxious conservatives I've ever known. I was at a party with him last night, and I had to avoid any topic we'd disagree on, because his self-righteous priggery drives me ballistic. I laid into him once on Facebook when he called Barack Obama a Muslim, and he made things difficult for me for several works. So, I learned that I must not insult this person, no matter how much he aggravates me.

Oh top of that, this guy always seems to find beautiful, interesting women as dates; and they always seem to think I'm wonderful. All the more reason for me not to be insulting. I want his dates to realize what a dolt this guy is, in comparison to my wisdom and boyish charm.

But hey, I can insult Songwronger with wild abandon, and Songwronger seems to enjoy it. And that gets it out of my system, so I can be civil to my neighbors.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Nov 13 - 12:26 AM

I live in an area where the so-called Tea Party "Patriots" are very strong. I have to watch how I say things, because people are going to jump all over me is I make any slip. People like Songwronger serve a very useful purpose. Songwronger is almost a caricature of the political positions I oppose. Responding to Songwronger, keeps me in form.
So, I ain't complainin' about Songwronger, Jeri. Well, I AM complainin', but I enjoy complainin'.

Would I want Songwronger to disappear? Well, actually, no. I find Songwronger entertaining - sometimes far more entertaining than some of the strident, earnest, my-shit-don't-stink liberals that hang out here.

-Joe Offer, Radical Moderate-

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 10:43 PM

"I--and others--don't necessarily consider Mudcat to be the most productive of places to lobby for needed changes." Point taken. Still, that leaves the field open for Songwronger.

As to the other--I have been in touch with all my representatives. I also keep the phone numbers for our State's Senators and Congress persons on hand to give to everyone that I talk to about this issue, which I do every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 09:53 PM

Here it is November 2 and hasn't happened. To quote Catspaw49, "What a crapped out, broke-dick, jadrool mamalucca."

Why is it I cannot feel that SW is a prophet or profit of any sort? And not only is SW without honor in his own country I can't think of any other honoring him, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:53 PM

GUEST, Stim:   "Why is Songwronger the only one who bothers to talk about it?"

First of all, because Songwronger's opening post (food riot on Nov. 1st) is pure hyperbola. And second, because I--and others--don't necessarily consider Mudcat to be the most productive of places to lobby for needed changes.

My two senators are Patti Murray and Maria Cantwell. The Congressional Representative is Jim McDermott. I convey my concerns to them.

And, yes, they respond.

Who are your Senators and Congressional Representative? Have you communicated with them lately?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 07:22 PM

Seems to me that SW's reading is severely circumcised.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:17 PM

I'm astonished that wronger has not brought up the subject of US unrest predicted by one study to take place before the end of this decade. Is it possible that his reading sources are severely circumscribed? Surely not.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 03:09 PM

A couple thoughts here.

The people who receive food stamps are not much likely to riot because they are mostly seniors, the disabled, sole support mothers and their children. Not the sort of folks who are able to "take it to the streets."


As for Songwronger, I am puzzled as to why you are outraged that they are cutting benefits you oppose.

And for the rest of you-Congress's Food Stamp benefit cuts (or, to be more precise, Congress's refusal to extend benefit adjustments) are just about the most cold-hearted
and mean-spirited thing they've ever done. The rest of the world has been talking about it
since Summer. Why is Songwronger the only one who bothers to talk about it?

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 02:14 PM

All quiet across the hall. Isabelle got another box of Froot Loops. The four-year-old is happy again.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 01:57 PM

No arrests at the Rolling Rally.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 01:30 PM

Well, Stim, assholes is assholes, Fux "News"[sic] or no.

Whether its genetically determined is a whole other discussion.

Another discussion is what anyone associated with Fux "News"[sic]is doing giving a shit about poor folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 12:51 PM

If you all thought that Ms. Purvis' statements seemed a bit alarmist, I found this tidbit in the Memphis Daily News, "Margarette Purvis, daughter of longtime Fox 13 Memphis anchor Mearl Purvis, has been named president and CEO of Food Bank For New York City, the Big Apple's major hunger-relief organization."

So the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Even when the apple is in the Big Apple and the tree is in Memphis.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Elmore
Date: 02 Nov 13 - 10:02 AM

No riots. However, there was a minor late night disturbance at Fenway Park , Oct 30.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 08:28 PM

Well, hate to say it but the $80M number has just been completely debunked on MSNBC...

But thanks for the early April Fools joke, wrongman...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 07:28 PM

Blaming Obama is ridiculous, but as Bobert says, riots are way past due. The link is to The Hunger Cliff, a site with good information about the debacle. The site which comes from Food Bank for NYC and partners. Write your congresspeople!

It's also good time to remind everyone that your local food bank probably has an installment plan so that you can automatically give them a little money (or a lot!) each month. The cash you give is doubled or more in its buying power through a food bank. And the food banks are going to be stretched even more than they already are.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 07:09 PM

I wish there would be riots, wrongman...

The 99% is getting screwed and half of them live at 125% of poverty or less...

Riots are way past due...

Bring 'um on...

Bring on national strikes against your rich buddies, the 1%...

Bring on the revolution... My powder is dry...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Songwronger
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:41 PM

Don't be smug, chubby. Obama's trying to spark riots. "My son would have looked like Trayvon." If he gave a shit about children he wouldn't be cutting off their milk. Disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:20 PM

This reminds me of the doomsdayers... Every time their predictions of "The End" don't happen they just change the date...

When the riots don't occur in 2 weeks it will be what??? December 3rd???
2027???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Food Stamp Riots on November 1?
From: Songwronger
Date: 01 Nov 13 - 06:16 PM

The government spent 80 million prepping for riots and protests. Where there's smoke...

I anticipate the problems will begin in the middle of the month, when people realize they won't have food coverage for the end of the month. At that point there may be some flashmob activity, raiding stores and so on. Whatever happens, people are going to get less food. Water and food are prime motivators, so we shall see.