BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM

Don, I'm not trying to be obstructive to your argument, but I have never seen the figures you quote for Seattle. Could you print them for me please?
I am not trying to say anything other than that the rates of transmission amongst homosexuals are many times higher than transmission rates in heteros.

I don't think it is understood how the hiv virus turns into aids, but extreme rates of promiscuity must be a strong factor.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 05:13 AM

HIV+ developing to AIDS.. This is rather well understood, hence the success of antiretrovirals.

To my knowledge, the only life threatening condition that can be exacerbated by promiscuity is cervical cancer. I doubt society can lay that blame at the door of gay men...

The only time I have seen this claim has been by ignorant preachers and far right criminal organisations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 12:20 PM

Anti retrovirals only treat the symptoms, as I'm sure you know very well. The condition is incurable

As you are so knowledgeable , how do you explain the huge discrepancy between the infection rates of homosexuals and heterosexuals?

Can there be another cause of the rates difference, than promiscuity?

Perhaps we are breaking new ground here, please enlighten us further.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Nov 13 - 01:54 PM

Ake, the figure I quoted above came from a source I ran across a couple of years ago. I'm unable to find it again. However, according to a recent article in the Seattle Times newspaper, the percentage is a bit less.   12.9%.

CLICKY.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM

That survey would not be valid, as it is subject to manipulation, the grouping of homosexuals in one particular area....we have the same situation in parts of the UK.
No sign of infection rates in the same confined area?

If you are comparing a GROUPING of homosexuals, with the NATIONAL infection rate it, the conclusion will be obviously skewed.

I presume that the survey contained returns from female homosexuals?...who of course do not come into the MSM demographic.

Anyway Don, thank you for the link and civil response...A

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket throwing up
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 05:13 AM

Perhaps if you wrote civil posts, more people could be civil with you.

All data is subject to manipulation. The hate websites that interpret it for people like you are shining examples.

Any situation in any part of The UK is, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, beyond your comprehension anyway. Your confusion over infection rates doesn't only lead to false premise, but a premise that fits with your "perversion" and "need for compulsion" nasty little agenda.

You live in the same country as me. We both enjoy freedom of expression, we both share our country equally with those you would oppress and our public health data, borne of a single healthcare system (NHS) with no commercial involvement allows planning and intervention of health promotion as accurately as it gets.

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 11:18 AM

You are a demented person Ian.....seek help.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 11:44 AM

National STD statistics are not provided by "Hate websites", they are provided by sites like CDC and HPA, which you as know, are involved in providing information on heath issues to the general public.

National sexual health statistics are broken down into demographics in order to show which sectors of the community are affected and to what extent.

Now, I suppose you think these sites are "hate spreaders" because they provide information which you don't like being made available, information which you see as a danger to your "equality agenda".
You would no doubt prefer to see health statistics for diseases and conditions like HIV/AIDS and SYPHILLIS provided simply on a national basis, but this would be unsatisfactory from a Public Health point of view, as it could be assumed from the NATIONAL figures, that infection rates for these diseases were falling rapidly, when in fact, amongst the demographic MSM, the rates are rocketing

It would though, suit you perfectly,as the health problems in male homosexuality could be successfully hidden under the NATIONAL figures and your agenda would remain intact, while homosexuals would continue to suffer at rates many times higher than the National average

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 11:58 AM

I may have occurred to some here, including I hope, Grishka, that this extended debate concerns more than homosexual heath rates, but also and perhaps just as importantly, the phenomenon of "liberal fascism", which demand that any issue which contradict the "liberal" agenda must be demonised and silenced.
One can see this tactic employed on many Mudcat threads by a handful of Mudcat "liberals". The real liberals remain silent, read and learn.

Lest anyone mistakes my motivation, I am not a "right winger" politically, nor have I any religious affiliations.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:16 PM

The liberal agenda... Equal rights for all regardless of race, colour, creed, gender or sexual persuasion.

Sounds good to me, and I'm not a "liberal."

Anything else you want to add? Perhaps equality caused you to have a chip on your shoulder? I'm curious.. Why are you finding scapegoats for your own failures?

Oh, by the way. The Health Protection Agency is where UK public health statistics are translated into key points for strategy by healthcare providers. It's what drives the health protection agenda, and I have the privilege to serve as an advisor on certain NHS structure matters, although not STDs. I really do take exception to the twisting by fanatics such as the person behind the Akenhateon figure and his sources, well known right wing hate websites. He quotes from one in particular, down to the spelling and grammatical errors.

Mind you, he gives good entertainment sometimes. Believing ignorant lies about the US President, praising dangerous individuals on the right in The USA and getting his facts arse about face on most subjects.

But the entertainment ends when he quotes lies and bullshit about his favourite subject, forcing gay men to be put on a register for no reason whatsoever. None.

Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:20 PM

Ake, if there are "groupings" of homosexuals in a specific area, there should also be--according to your line of reasoning--groupings of HIV/Aids infections.

But that doesn't play out in the city were I live!

And this is not just a "liberal issue." It is a matter of human rights and simple decency.

"Fascism?" Those who would lock up homosexuals or force them to undergo health tests not required of everybody are the REAL Fascists here!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:28 PM

The "liberal" agenda is to conceal the truth when it is not to the advantage of "liberals"

The liberal stance, on the other hand, if a very fine thing indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:32 PM

I take it that "liberal" is an epithet you throw out there when you can't rebut someone else's facts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 01:59 PM

Ake, rather than your "concentration camp" approach to dealing with HIV/Aids infections, in King County, in which Seattle resides, most doctors include HIV testing along with routine physical check-ups, such as cholesterol and blood sugar levels. They don't put young gay men in a separate room and treat them differently from any other patient.

Obviously, it works, because HIV/Aids infection percentages are much lower here than other cities despite the higher population of gays.

Seattle is a vibrant, civilized city. And part of that is due to the fact that most of the citizens here don't spend any time pacing back and forth, smacking a fist into the palm of their other hand, and agonizing over what kind of bizarre perversions their neighbors might be indulging in in the privacy of their own bedrooms.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:18 PM

Here is an example of what I mean.

"liberalism"

The actual HPA new infection rates are...

BY DEMOGRAPHIC    MSM.....62%
                  HETERO..27%
                  IDU's....2%
                  OTHERS...9%

BY ETHNICITY      WHITE...66%
                  Black Af..16%
                  Black Carr..2%
                   Mixed.....11%
                   UNKNOWN...5%

Are Black Africans less deserving of "equality" than male homosexuals?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 02:59 PM

"Are Black Africans less deserving of 'equality' than male homosexuals?"

Certainly not.

It sounds like you have a number of problems there in the British Isles.

But here in the area where I live, we seem to have it pretty well in hand.

Instead of trying to convert me, Ake, you might spend some time trying to find fair and effective solutions to the problems in your own area.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:10 PM

Ake: I repost a quote from you in answer to one of my questions:

"..you say directly it

"...proves that some degree of compulsion is required..."

I reply:

Ah... and do you also suggest a fair way that "some" compulsion could be applied? Just how would an open society find and legislate a reasonable way to stop careless sexuality in ANY group? ANYONE would agree that education/information and medical advice and publicity are useful tools... but compulsion? ... segregation? Jail? Cameras in bedrooms? The mind boggles.
Perhaps "Destruction of the Capitalist system" is part of your plan? Would a Socialist system theoretically be free to impose "compulsion"? How far do you think THAT would go before you offend almost everyone? Capitalism has its flaws, but socialism's overlay of compulsion almost always requires military and secret police which is popular only with those doing the compelling.

You reply merely:

"...the epidemic inflicting homosexuals is a real and present problem. As such it requires quick and effective remedies, ..."

This is as close as I have seen you come to any suggestion as to a solution.

WHAT, I ask again, would BE a fair and effective sort of **compulsion**?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:26 PM

"his attending schools that were far beyond his means."

Even if true, has this eejit SW never heard of scholarships and bursaries?

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:40 PM

Don, I am a past chairman of a health provider with four hospitals and presently been brought in to sort out the structures required for the future for a health economy of over a million UK citizens, just over a billion pounds of public money and 14,000 staff.

I mention that just as context to refute his claims and hope that when you say "sounds like you have issues in the UK," you might be aware that we have very good figures for people being checked out and the take up rate by gay men is one of the highest in the world. I spent a few years inspecting hospitals and clinics up till this year, and have spent plenty of time assessing the quality of GU clinics.

Akenhateon is not describing The UK situation. Our high take up of people coming forward allows nasty people to use figures to describe a situation different to reality.

It helps his agenda, but is far from the truth. We have ms ny issues with obesity, smoking and sexually transmitted disease, especially clamydia in younger women, and yes, as the population increase and health promotion gets the message out, more people come forward, the HIV numbers go up. That is a success story of dealing with the issue. Also, audit data from accident and emergency (ER) and colo rectal services nationally indicates far more women than men having infection (and surgical) issues with anal sex. (What that bastard calls the homosexual act.)

He calls gay lifestyle a perversion. Sorry, his type make me feel ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:52 PM

"How I am perceived by others on this forum is always coloured by their own views, and most here are centre left liberals, and I would not expect such people to agree with the views of a radical socialist."

I don't think so! It is always coloured by YOUR expressed views on Gays, travellers and other minorities.

We can only judge you by what YOU say, and it's not a pretty picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 13 - 03:53 PM

Got it, Musket. Sounds like things are pretty well in hand, contrary to Ake's screeds.

It becomes obvious that Ake's problems with homosexuality are Ake's. He's obviously obsessed with the subject.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:59 AM

Just last night - and very briefly - it occurred to me to wonder what this one gay friend does in the privacy of his own home. And then the thought flashed: I don't want to know what my heterosexual friends do in the privacy of their own homes either. It just ain't my bidness.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket between courses
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:54 AM

Cheers Don.

Mind you, neither do I wish to sound complacent. This thread is about lies and politics and whilst healthcare has been a burning issue in The USA, it is always a burning issue here, as the National Health Service gets through so much public money. It is about £1850.00 per man woman and child. In England alone that is over a hundred billion. ...

So plenty of room for politics, ideology and linking to extreme agendas!

We have issues with hard to reach groups in general, which does mean the scale of any problem is higher than it should be. The poorer the area the later people present with their problems. Having universal free at point of delivery healthcare is good but that alone doesn't make our overall health of the population good. We have issues everywhere in the western world will find familiar. Obesity, drink related diseases, smoking and sexually transmitted diseases. The issue facing the work I am doing is, overall, an aging population. Victims of our own success! The links between health and social care could be better. Much better. Our emergency services are crammed full of old people, especially during the winter, whose presence could be avoided if primary and social care in the community was better linked.

We are tackling all of these to a greater or lesser extent. Sexual health is a mixed bag, especially with promiscuous younger heterosexual activity. Contact between the services and vulnerable Gay people has been a success story, although of course this means higher numbers of identified infections leading to extrapolating to higher rates.

This is seized upon by far right groups and sadly many religious groups as an excuse to find a scapegoat for society's issues. Again, same everywhere!

You can tell from his posts, Akenhateon isn't too quick on the uptake and this combined with some irrational hate within him makes him an ideal poster boy for homophobic pressure groups.

We have full equality (except sadly for religious organisations who are allowed to bar women from high office and preach inequality for gays) and earlier this year we righted a wrong and introduced Gay marriage.

Bigotry is being marginalised. The wish is for it to wither and die.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:58 AM

Ian says, that, "as more people come forward, HIV numbers go up."

That statement completely and deliberately misses the point.
The important factor is not numbers of infections, but new infection rates.
These new infection rates now stand at 65/70% for MSM and have risen at a consistent rate for the last decade.
The rates in all other demographics are falling, including the rates for IDUs

It is frightening that someone who claims to have held a responsible position in health care, either does not understand the data produced by reputable health agencies, or worse, deliberately misrepresents it to bolster his "equality" agenda.

Regarding "compulsion", if some start is made now, to make testing available for those who really need it......Clue here....the demographic which is massively more affected than all of the others put together, though constituting only a tiny fraction of the population!! the compulsion may be avoided.
However, if something radical is no put in place to halt the epidemic soon, "compulsion" will be inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:14 AM

Making testing available! Why didn't we think of that?   Doh!

Luckily, we use real figures that support the targeted approach. Some areas of cluster groups, ,mainly in some inner cities would make disturbing reading if the few dozen at postcode level (the smallest demographic public health goes down to) were rated into the population of over 60,000,000.

But they aren't.

And they don't.

And threatening to put people on a register for their lifestyle choice is not going to get people to come forward in the first place. And who exactly?

Male.
Interested in anal sex.
Multiple partners.
Irresponsible.

I doubt that less than 1% of the gay population need so much scrutiny, especially as we get those figures via those who engage with the health services....

I'll send you a form to fill in to sign that you can prove you don't have unprotected anal sex with prostitutes. Sadly enough in Glasgow will let you, if you open your wallet wide enough.



Sorry everybody. For a minute I thought that laying down the facts would help, but there come a point when you realise you are just feeding his personality disorder, and that is something I am not qualified to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 12:36 PM

Thanks for the info, Musket.

It's obvious that as far as same-sex orientation is concerned, Ake has some "personal issues." I have found that the most rabid homophobes tend to hold their position tenaciously out of fear of their own impulses. And Ake certainly is obsessed with the matter.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:04 PM

I'll ignore that piece of nonsense Don.

Ian...you are just being silly.
Those who should register are of course those in the demographic most severely affected, MSM.....Have you discovered what that means yet?
HPA say that there are just over 600 000 MSM in the UK, 66% of all new HIV and syphilis infections are amongst that 600 000(2011 figures)...the up to date figures will be well over 75% if infection rates have continued to rise at 7 to 9%.

This is an epidemic, which would cripple the Health service...and the economy, if it was affecting heterosexuals at the same rate.

What is so hard to understand about that?   Forget your agenda, these people need help not platitudes

In Cuba, the authorities instigated compulsory testing and contact tracing whenever the condition made an appearance, Cuba now has the lowest HIV infection rate in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:13 PM

I know. And there are enough drop in clinics near where he lives if he wishes to put his fear behind him. It's a simple smear test, no injections or biopsies.

Regardless of the results, he also has free access to psychological help with his irrational compulsion to hate. Unless it is personality disorder of course, then our mental health legislation allows him to be assessed to see if he is a danger to himself or others.

A sad bitter twisted old man. They are usually harmless.

Except to unsuspecting people accidentally coming across his hate posts. That is rather unfortunate. I know many people through the folk scene over here who would be genuinely distressed to read his words.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 01:29 PM

HPA say, that in 2010, 1 in 20 male homosexuals had HIV.
In London, the rate was 1 in 11.....These figures are three years out of date and infection rates are still rising.

Only 7 in 100 MSM have taken an HIV test.

Still think there is no cause for concern?

Shame on you Ian.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:26 PM

Put the rest of the data in.

Or get someone to do it for you.

The figures you speak of are not homosexual men. They are, as the HPA states and I have read many times, a demographic within gay men. A bit like prostitutes are a demographic within women. They represent the number at risk through lifestyle and the other socioeconomic grouping that indicate a high risk of not engaging with healthcare services.

They do not apply to gay men any more than HIV + through substance misuse applies to your Granny. She just happens to be a female, just like the high number of those in that risk group.

Also, the figures are not national even within the hard to reach group they refer to. They refer to an estimated exceedingly small percentage of the population if you check and also, as actual numbers of people on antiretrovirals goes up, the rate decreases and the success story in combating this awful condition within people gets better. Needle sharing and female infection are the main target areas in most health economies.

And we target them based on HPA figures. We are also aware of the fact that ignoring hate isn't being complacent. There are shocking statistics around, and your wish to make them worse by driving the problem underground is as bad as killing them yourself. Except in your pathetic little way, you and your thug friends are.




Why am I saying this? He either knows it anyway or those whose websites he uses conveniently disguise it to impress gullible twats.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 02:52 PM

Answer the fucking question!

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 03:15 PM

Mark Twain expressing in order of magnitude, "There are lies, damned lies--and statistics!"

Example:

Whereas people of European extraction tend to walk side by side, all Native Americans walk in single file.

At least the one I saw did. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Nov 13 - 05:17 PM

I think MY probing insights are now being ignored.... fine... makes it easier on me.

Subject: RE: BS: Nasty Stuff Out, Pope/Manning/others
From: GUEST,musket noting
Date: 26 Nov 13 - 04:59 AM

I hope that my missing post was due to it not reaching Mudcat.org. If it has been removed whilst incitement to hate (a crime where the perpetrator is based) is still there for unsuspecting people to see, it would be somewhat odd. Even if posting hate and neo Nazi ideology is ok where the moderator sits, it still ain't nice to read.

I shall try again.

Ahem.

Don't swear like that. Your posts are obscene enough as it is.

I suppose not having a tea party as such with the Fox based publicity, it is harder for UK based people to read or hear their lies without getting frustrated. I guess it washes off easier when you have to live in the same country as it? Sorry for my insistence in shouting down our resident fool. I just can't let it go un challenged