BS: internet discussion forums

Subject: BS: internet discussion forums
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 03:49 PM

Is it a good medium for discussion? the absence of body language,in my opinion means that quite ordinary remarks are interpreted by people in many different ways., if these statements were made face to face or in person, the meaning would be clear., people would respond with politeness,
it seems to me that because people are isolated behind a computer, they then respond in a way they would not if they were face to face with the person.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 05:24 PM

The people who call names and use personal abuse on an internet forum are menaces, they use it as a tactic most of the time.
The worst proponent here claims that if he met the person he usually abuses in a pub, he would "drink up and leave immediately, wiping his feet as he left."

Now that's about the most sensible thing that he's ever said on Mudcat, but I don't really think he should waste time wiping his feet! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,laptopgnu
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 06:05 PM

Hahahahahahaa!

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 06:41 PM

"Lead us not into temptation"

[further, deponent sayeth not...]

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 07:58 PM

Emoticons may seem insipid to some, but they do help convey an attitude when the tone might not be crystal clear in the text.

;-D

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 08 Dec 13 - 08:01 PM

As the song says, "We can act like jerks in the safety of our cars." That goes for the web, too. Folks will do what they feel they can get away with. Not pretty, but it is human nature.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 03:45 AM

People also use internet discussion forums to spread hate and prejudice from behind their screens anonymously. Whether body language is used or not prejudice against minority groups is the same everywhere. More should be done to prevent this.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 04:47 AM

....... the absence of body language,in my opinion means that quite ordinary remarks are interpreted by people in many different ways., if these statements were made face to face or in person, the meaning would be clear., people would respond with politeness, .......


Subject: RE: BS: no tv, does this make me eccentric
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Dec 13 - 12:56 PM

interpret how you like, that is not my opinion , now fuck off



It's difficult for me to understand what sort of body language would have made this more acceptable in a face to face conversation.


DC

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 04:51 AM

Sorry, that was me above on someone else's computer.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 05:08 AM

Quite, Doug. Pots'n'kettles, I fear, Dick.

I responded on that thread objecting to that very formulation, which led to some disagreement between Dick & me, tho IIRC conducted in reasonably moderate & not discourteous tones, altho we differed in opinion. I much hope it was not that exchange between you & me which motivated this present thread, Dick.

Regards

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 06:26 AM

in actual fact it is easy to say fuck off to someone in a light hearted joking manner when face to face, tone of voice, body language etc will indicate it is meant jokingly.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 06:29 AM

Akenhateon missed a bit.

I also said I would have to have a shower when I returned home.

Have you noticed that those who promote hatred and try using forums such as Mudcat to do so are the first to complain when their motives are questioned, first to complain when others give it back with knobs on and last to see the effect their bile has on innocent equal members of society that they call peverted, just for existing.

I reckon I'm being soft, not hard on the sick puppy....

By the way, "the person he usually abuses" is indeed Akenhateon, or the fool behind the name who is too ashamed to reveal himself whilst taking every opportunity to use the real name of anyone who he directs his bile towards.

Here, why don't you tell the good men and women what I put at the end of any post where I have the unfortunate ordeal of recognising your existence?

That's right.


Back in your hole worm.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 07:28 AM

a classic example of that which happens on internet discussion forums, eight or nine reasonable posts,then someone personalises the thread by bringing in a post from elsewhere, that has the result of flaming.
I was trying to have a reasonable OBJECTIVE DISCUSSION,trying to talk about it hypothetically.
here is your answer, it is possible to say fuck off to someone to their face,in such a tone that it is not offensive, you use a light hearted jokey tone, body language can make it clear you are light hearted or joking, all that is missing on the net, even if you use emoticons, that is my point entirely

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 07:52 AM

it is possible to say fuck off to someone to their face, in such a tone that it is not offensive

I think that is very true, particularly in Ireland and Scotland where common usage of the term has rendered it almost jocular! I am reminded of the Australian cricket captain who, on receiving a complaint from the England team that someone had called them bastards, gave the classic line "Which of you bastards called these bastards bastards?" Could be an urban myth but I hope not :-)

We have had plenty of discussions on here about so called abuse and insulting language. I believe that bad language is often the least of our worries when discussing more serious matters.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 07:55 AM

Most posters convey their emotions all too well - that is in fact the problem in the most controversial cases. Some actually claim to be joking but are not.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 08:12 AM

interesting, Grishka, how would you know someone elses intentions unless you met them in person, how can YOU know what their intentions are, are you the pope with a hot line to the almighty?

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 08:51 AM

interesting, Grishka, how would you know someone elses intentions unless you met them in person, how can YOU know what their intentions are, are you the pope with a hot line to the almighty?

Good question, GSS.

Neither the pope nor I are infallible in that respect, not even when meeting someone in person, but often there are clear indications from the context, clearer in fact than any emoticons. I agree with you that oral communication is often more precise (though not always precise enough either), and that writers should strive to compensate for that by giving sufficient hints.

On the other hand, readers should read carefully and make sure they understand a message correctly - ask if necessary - before engaging in a flame war. Here seems to be the more serious shortcoming at Mudcat BS and elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: kendall
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 10:47 AM

WE DO CREATE OUR OWN REALITY. I decide whether or not I've been insulted.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 10:57 AM

Well Grishka, personally, I try to answer as many questions as possible on any issue I am discussing and never abuse other members from holding views which differ from mine; in fact I enjoy discovering how people form their opinions.

The problem is, some people keep asking the SAME question a dozen times, until everyone is bored rigid. It is simply another tactic, like abusive language....to be used by some when the ideas run out.

Some people fall back into defence mode....."Thou shalt not question my ideology."

I've be here ten years, many have been here longer, we all know that most of us are sincere in our views, we can debate like adults, we don't need the stuff that has been infecting our house lately.

As I said on another thread, if the forum is to survive as an adult discussion platform, the blatant personal intimidation must be stamped out.

If the membership say any SUJECT is not up for discussion, then I will be the first to leave.

I must say that the US members do not generally indulge in this type of behaviour.....it seems to be a trait of the "educated" English elite.. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 11:45 AM

Billy Connolly is relevant here..

He once said that "fuck off" is a wonderful phrase as it does not suffer from ambiguity or false praise. You say what you mean and mean what you say.

He challenges the audience to find a book with "fuck off! He hinted" in it.

Anyway Grishka, if I had to understand your posts before replying I may as well fuck off myself.....

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 02:15 PM

.... then someone personalises the thread by bringing in a post from elsewhere, that has the result of flaming.

Not flaming, Dick. Although my post contained a quote from elsewhere, it was from a current thread and was directly relevant to the point in question. In fact, I suspect that the other thread, at least in part, it gave rise to this thread.

On more than one occasion you have dredged up some long dead thread and made repeated references to it, goading the other person into a response and then calling foul when they do. MtheGM talked of pots and kettles, above. This is another example.

If this personalises the argument too much for you then that's just tough. Feel free to add whatever body language that comes into your imagination.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 03:34 PM

a classic example of how internet threads deteriorate.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 03:48 PM

GSS...I think that there has to be SOME sort of moderation if the forum is to keep functioning as it was intended to, but really, the mods have a thankless task policing every thread.

In saying that, I don't think that some of them are 100% neutral.
I'm sure I would have been switched off long ago if it wasn't for Joe and maybe Max, with whom I have never had a conversation.

I suppose this is a centre liberal forum with a few socialists and a handful of conservatives, so one can't expect too much in the way of controversy.
Better to just keep discussing and hope the abusers start to realise they have been "rumbled"

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Dec 13 - 08:19 PM

There can be real advantages in carrying out a discussion on the net rather than face to face. The trouble is that so many people don't use those advantages.

What I mean is that in a net discussion we have the chance to reflect on what we are saying, and what other people are saying, and make sure to get it right. We can make distinctions between what we disagree with and what we might actually agree with.

In a face to face discussion it is very easy to misunderstand what someone says, and react to what we mistake them as saying.

The pity is that too often what could be a useful discussion, one which helps is to get clearer in our head about what we believe, and where we should perhaps modify our beliefs, get's overtaken by a pointless mud-throwing session.

It's not stuff like "bad language" that matters, it's failure to read intelligently what other people write, and pay proper self-critical attention what we write ourselves.

It's not difficult to make it clear when we are not being fully serious. Different cultural understanding of irony can be a problem perhaps, but it's easy enough to clear those up if we have a bit of patience.

Carrying on quarrels from thread to thread is poison.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 10 Dec 13 - 07:37 PM

there is a tendency by some posters, especially if they seem to lack a coherent argument to resort to abuse, mockery and foul lanquage.
charges of low intelligence, and presuming motive are also too common.
personally, I would not argue for censoring such, as the lack of respectful posting is evident to onlookers of a poor argument, and is not appreciated even by some that would otherwise share their point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Dec 13 - 08:03 PM

*grin*. wow, Pete...you just noticed this? I wonder a lot whether those who DO resort to name calling, insults and abuse really would speak the same way in face-to-face discussion.

I have one simple rule for (almost) all debates, whether in person or in print: "If *I* am personally insulted, there is no good reason for continuing on the topic. I will discuss topics with those who explain their position, even if widely different from my own, in a reasonably polite, tolerant manner. If I see no evidence that they are even comprehending what I say, there is little use in continuing."

But I do repeat what I said above: "Lead us not into temptation." Some people are 'lightning rods' for controversy and are in never-ending battles. This 'should' clue them in that there's a problem in their attitude.

I have a cartoon of a man on a psychiatrist's couch, looking over his shoulder at the startled therapist, shouting: "I said, I don't see why people don't like me! Open your ears, fathead!"

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 10 Dec 13 - 10:20 PM

Good Soldier Schwank.....

Please explain the story... about how YOU morphed...from your previous incarnation of Captain Bird's Eye




Sincerely,
Gargoyle

"Men, in general, judge more from appearances than from reality," Machiavelli

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 10 Dec 13 - 10:51 PM

Dave the Gnome
No, not an urban myth.
As extracted from Wiki:

"Richardson was Australian vice-captain for the 1932/33 English tour of Australia, known as the Bodyline series, for England's tactics of bowling fast short-pitched deliveries at the batsman's bodies.

During the series, Richardson exclaimed to his team mates "which of you bastards called (Harold) Larwood a bastard instead of this bastard (Douglas Jardine)?"

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: ragdall
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 01:54 AM

Good people are good, in person and online.
Others show their real selves when they know there is little chance of retribution. Possibly they do so face to face as well?

rags

Subject: RE: BS: internet discussion forums
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 11:12 AM

Deja vu. I thought I had replied to this one. Mmmm...

Perhaps if you were in a pub, and some person (thought of saying pillock there but refrained) started waffling on about how we have all got it wrong regarding WW1, or that we should round up gay people or the planet mercury had evolving dinosaurs whatever, some people would laugh their heads off.

That would be the ones you are berating for saying things online that they might not do in public. I wouldn't be so sure.

Only one of those situations would have me sup up and leave, wiping my feet on the way out. The others, I would wipe the tear from my eye and offer to buy them a drink for making me laugh.

It's not a bad bloke who can make you laugh, although it isn't so clever to mock the afflicted. Here in Mudcatland, it would be disrespectful not to take people at face value, so if they say something stupid, what is wrong in saying "that is stupid?" In a pub, you might notice the tinted glasses, nervous tick, badge with a pound sign on it or strait jacket but here, you don't have that option. You have to that them as equals, and that is what those of us who tell it like it is are just doing.

Ooh... I feel all smug and sanctimonious now. I never realised what a good chap I am!