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To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not

Les in Chorlton 11 Dec 13 - 04:49 AM
johncharles 11 Dec 13 - 05:06 AM
Manitas_at_home 11 Dec 13 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Callingbird 11 Dec 13 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,folkiedave 11 Dec 13 - 07:24 AM
selby 11 Dec 13 - 07:31 AM
SteveMansfield 11 Dec 13 - 08:31 AM
r.padgett 11 Dec 13 - 08:57 AM
Les in Chorlton 11 Dec 13 - 09:16 AM
selby 11 Dec 13 - 09:22 AM
Les in Chorlton 11 Dec 13 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Dec 13 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 11 Dec 13 - 11:02 AM
Mr Red 11 Dec 13 - 11:27 AM
SteveMansfield 11 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM
selby 11 Dec 13 - 02:47 PM
GUEST 11 Dec 13 - 07:08 PM
GUEST,FloraG 12 Dec 13 - 03:52 AM
MartinRyan 12 Dec 13 - 04:12 AM
Les in Chorlton 12 Dec 13 - 05:49 AM
Brian Peters 12 Dec 13 - 05:56 AM
Brian Peters 12 Dec 13 - 06:03 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 13 - 06:09 AM
GUEST,Derek Schofield 12 Dec 13 - 12:20 PM
selby 12 Dec 13 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,Ragman 12 Dec 13 - 03:11 PM
GUEST 12 Dec 13 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 13 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM
Richard Mellish 13 Dec 13 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,John Foxen 14 Dec 13 - 08:11 AM
GUEST,Guest 14 Dec 13 - 09:20 PM
Noreen 16 Dec 13 - 08:44 AM
greg stephens 16 Dec 13 - 09:49 AM
Mr Red 16 Dec 13 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,CS 17 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM
GUEST 17 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM
GUEST 17 Dec 13 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Guest 17 Dec 13 - 08:43 PM
bradfordian 18 Dec 13 - 03:34 PM
GUEST 18 Dec 13 - 08:35 PM
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Subject: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 04:49 AM

To visit the living tradition of carol singing in pubs near Sheffield or not?

Links

Is it appropriate for us to travel miles and maybe swamp these amzing events or is it ok?


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: johncharles
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 05:06 AM

go for it.
hail smiling morn
john


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 06:23 AM

Maybe start something locally. I've just found out about some carol sessions being organized in and around London. There's one in the Royal Oak, Tabard St, SE1 this coming Sunday lunchtime. There'll be one in Richmond and one in Putney. I don't have the details to hand but I think the organizer is Jeff Dent.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,Callingbird
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:24 AM

Les, they are amazing. Well worth going and squeezing into The Royal at Dungworth.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:24 AM

Some are crowded (from now on especially) some not so crowded.

Personally I would avoid the sings Saturday night and Sunday lunchtime. they get very crowded.

Many of the others will be fine. (Not Castleton).

And I agree - try and start something local to where you live.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: selby
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:31 AM

They are all full now, I would go for it but personally would go for the Blue Ball at Worrall The Royal at Dungworth is hard to find (on the map it says here there be dragons) plus you need to be there, early just to get in and stand.
Keith


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 08:31 AM

Go for it - they're crowded and can be a little chaotic, but it's a wonderful rousing communal experience you shouldn't miss if you're remotely interested.

And yes as others say, maybe then start something local.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: r.padgett
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 08:57 AM

Worth a visit and take a driver who will need to stay sober!

Songs best learnt by osmosis and stand near someone who knows what to do and watch the protocol on song refrains

Ian Russell will always sell you a CD or two to start your own sing

Ray


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 09:16 AM

Thanks Folks, lots of good information there. But I still have this feeling that by visiting an event, a custom, we may be spoiling or at least deminishing it's authenticity.

I am not seeking to make a point or pick an argument but to raise a discussion

Best wishes


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: selby
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 09:22 AM

The only person who is losing out by not going is yourself, you will not diminish anything only add to the whole and yes it is busy, but the warmth of welcome, camaraderie, and warming spirit cannot be replicated. There is in my opinion no discussion, you go to enjoy and keep a tradition going. Everybody has to go once,then again and again and again
Keith


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 10:06 AM

Thanks Keith


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 10:55 AM

"But I still have this feeling that by visiting an event,"
We were lucky enough to have visited the singing at the invitation of Ian Russell not long after he introduced it to the wider world.
Not only did we enjoy the singing, but we came away with the feeling of having been privileged observers of an intimate local event.
Nowadays, the thought of turning up mob handed at these events without first checking with somebody in the know whether an influx of folkie emmets would be welcomed or is going to make a difference to the nature of what is essentially a local celebration gives me an extremely uneasy feeling.
The participants of these customs certainly don't need hordes of us outsiders coming in and drowning out their singing - whether they want us there is something else (apart, of course, the publicans who are happy to sell a few more pints).
I'm sure Ian Russell would be happy to advise one way or the other.
I would hate to see these customs disappear under a folkie tsunami - or cause some of the resentment/hostility to be found at other such events.
Then, of course, there's always the 'Whicker Man' factor.....!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 11:02 AM

Well, I still have memories of Bacup, Padstow etc, where the pubs used to get clogged solid with folkies singing sea shanties and what not, much to the annoyance of the locals. Needless to say, said folkies hardly ever set foot outside said pubs to go and watch whatever it was that they were supposed to be there for in the first place.

Also, customs are invariably bedevilled with the sad spectacle of people invading gardens, and climbing onto walls and garage roofs, irrespective of intrusion and damage to private property, just so that they can get a better look.

On the other hand, I wonder how many customs have been brought back from the brink by outsiders and enthusiasts, whose presence made the locals wake up and realise that they'd got something worth hanging onto.

Yes, by all means visit folk customs - including Sheffield carols - but only if you're interested in the custom, and only if you're prepared to act in an unobtrusive and civilised manner and to observe the mores and customs of the inhabitants.

In other words, don't get drunk. Don't stop the locals from getting to the bar. Don't drop litter. Ask permission before you photograph anyone. Don't behave like a Hell's Angel just rode into town. And you never know, you'll probably be welcome back next year.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 11:27 AM

You could visit the Prince Albert Stroud at 12pm (actually before is easier - it is very popular) when they sing Sheffield Carols each Sunday up to Christmas.
see here


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 01:45 PM

As a warm up why not come along to Glossop Labour Club's first annual Derbyshire carol singing night tomorrow, thursday 12th. Starts about 8pm - Chapel street Glossop derbyshire, SK13 8AT.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: selby
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 02:47 PM

The carols have just been on our local Look North, Ian Russell gave a little overview and a lady who had travelled down from Edinburgh talked about how wonderful they where.
As they are held in pubs and the pub where the scene was shot had a blackboard outside advertising the carols. Does it matter who turns up as long as you join in and enjoy, they are not meant to be in a glass case and looked at they are there to be sung.
Keith


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 13 - 07:08 PM

The other London ones are the Waterman's Arms in Richmond 2000-2200 19.12 and the Bricklayers' Arms in Putney 1400-1600 22.12
Jeff is pretty welcoming to fellow folkies (it's Hammersmith Morris behind it) and isn't afraid to tell anyone who's a bit too much to bring it back. It obviously helps to be from the Methodist/Chapel tradition this spun off from (CofE West Gallery people outplaced in the Oxford Movement of the 1840s) as you'll know some of the tunes, and better yet to be from the Peak District as you'll know all of them!
The sites are http://www.localcarols.org.uk/intro.php and www.londoncarols.co.uk for the tunes as well.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 03:52 AM

We shall be doing a chunk of carols tonight at the kent Wildlife volunteers Christmas party - so if you like carols all you have to do is volunteer for some activity during the year - from sitting at a desk to actively helping on a reserve - and you get an invite.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: MartinRyan
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 04:12 AM

Odd how some of the descriptions above resemble behaviour at birdwatching "twitches"…

Regards


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 05:49 AM

Thanks to all for good advice.

We will be singing carols in The Beech:


Wednesday 18th December

We have no deep carol tradition and will probably sing carols learned in school and a few 'folk' carols. All will be welcome on the grounds that we welcome all to Songs and Tunes at The Beech:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/285466650899/

If you are coming bring some mince pies to share with the civilians who put up with shanties, murder ballads and the Dorset Four hand Reel for the rest of the year.

Wassail, whatever that means


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 05:56 AM

We went to Worrall last Sunday, not for 'twitching' purposes but to have a good sing. People from the folk world have been going to these sessions for decades (I reviewed a session at the Royal in Dungworth for Folk Roots nearly thirty years ago) and, although it's true that the proportion of them has grown as the reputation of the carolling has spread, one wonders what the sessions in a tiny village like Dungworth would be like - given changing demographics etc - if the folk people weren't there.

Worrall is closer to the urban fringe and there's a higher proportion of 'locals' there, though there's not always a clear-cut division between them and the 'folkies' anyway. I can't say I've ever detected animosity. At Worrall the organ was being played (very well) by the co-editor of The New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, so presumably that 'outside intervention', at least, was welcome.

Les asked an interesting question - we hear the same kind of doubts expressed about 'eco-tourism' - and I certainly think the kind of sensitivity suggested by Fred McCormick is a minimum requirement.

Might well try the Glossop Labour Club session tonight!


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 06:03 AM

PS. One note of animosity I have detected: the landlord at the Royal is liable to get shirty if people ask for tap water to lubricate their throats, rather than buying his beer!

PPS. The locals in the Beech will no doubt prefer to hear the carols they know anyway, Les. I remember going to sing at an old people's home in Glossop one Christmas and presenting a couple of exotic Sheffield versions of 'While Shepherds Watched', then asking the assembled residents whether they had any requests. "Yes," barked one elderly woman pointedly, 'While Shepherds Watched'!"


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 06:09 AM

" and I certainly think the kind of sensitivity suggested by Fred McCormick is a minimum requirement."
Seconded
I would not discourage anybody from attending the Sheffield Carols, but I would caution against them being turned into the circuses many other fine local customs have been through mob-handed insensitivity.
Ian Russell has appeared on LOCAL radio, speaking of them taking place and, as somebody has pointed out, the pubs have advertised them as LOCAL events, which is an indication that this is what they are - LOCAL events, a far cry from turning them into national knees-ups
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 12:20 PM

I suppose I must have going over the Pennines from Cheshire to sing at one or other of the carolling pubs for over 25 years. I do tend to go just once or possibly twice each year as I would hate to take up space that a local would take. And I would endorse the comments about sensitivity and politeness that both Fred and Jim have made. I have always been made welcome.
It is good to see that people in other areas of the country are digging out THEIR local carols and singing them again.
Derek


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: selby
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 12:32 PM

Unfortunately when a Local well known singer is on TV talking about the carols a fortnightish ago and they where on TV last night any attempt about sensitivity go out the window. I have been going a number of years and everyone I have met are there to sing, enjoy the carols and keep a tradition going. I repeat it is a living tradition and should not be in a glass case to look at.
Keith


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,Ragman
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 03:11 PM

Don't hesitate Les (dip your bread! as they say. )My wife and I try to get to Castleton each year and have been made very welcome by the locals and even been asked to attend rehearsals! for special events. These sings will really make your Christmas as it does ours, unfortunately we can't make it this year due to other commitments,
and therefore if you like you may take our space, (close to the bar).A truly memorable night and a real Christmas experience.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Dec 13 - 08:20 PM

It depends on your approach, obviously. I have some of the Leicestershire traditions of non-reformed chapel worship, which are (give or take a crossing of the Trent) neighbours to the bottom end of the Dales, so some of the tunes are the same, and the others are accessible. Being a halfway useful singer also helps, although it's entirely inessential: there are healing powers in hops, even for the worst voice, and the laying-on of sound soon sorts out the rest.
All the old hands began somewhere, they weren't formed by steam in some hell-ridden mill outside Warrington, so as long as you're prepared to carry your share you're part of the tradition.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 11:31 AM

I can't make this Sunday's sing at the Royal. There's a memorial for Nelson Mandela planned for that day in Liverpool, and I'm not missing that whatever happens.

I just hope it will be possible for me to bear the withdrawal symptoms.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 13 Dec 13 - 04:10 PM

I've been only a few times, when in the area for one of Ian's festivals. I was once told off, at the end of a session at the Blue Ball, for drinking only one soft drink. But I was going to drive south, so I needed to be sober and without a full bladder. And I had bought at least one round for the friends I was with.

You certainly shouldn't go unless you intend to sing. And if you intend to sing anything other than the melodies, and you don't already know the parts, it helps to be close to other people singing the same parts, and/or to have one of the books with the settings -- though the exact settings and the selections of verses can vary from one pub to another.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,John Foxen
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 08:11 AM

In Essex the Leigh Folk Carol service will be held on Sunday (15 December) at St Clements Church, Broadway, Leigh, SS9 1AB from 6.30pm to 8pm. All welcome.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Dec 13 - 09:20 PM

Les

If you have to ask then you should not be going.

We (the duchess and I) have been involved for a long time with lots of people who go for what we feel are all the right reasons.

As far as we are concerned, although we do know well lots of influential people such as Ian Russell, Will Noble, Gordon Hoyland etc, the occasion belongs primarily to the locals and we would feel we were in some way trespassing.

We have had some really good sings elsewhere and at different times of the year and are happy with that.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 08:44 AM

Had a wonderful sing at the Royal, Dungworth yesterday, though we were still outside when the singing started.
Last time I went it was the case that you had to get there early to get a seat- now you have to get there early to get in at all. Several people left as they didn't like standing like sardines, and one fainter was carried out... so this particular session may not suit everyone.

We did eventually manage to make our way to the bar to support our hosts! (I didn't like the handwritten signs up everywhere though saying that tap water costs £1, same as bottled water- this is actually illegal where alcohol is sold.)

As GUEST 12 Dec 13 - 08:20 PM says, as long as visitors join in, in the spirit of the tradition, we are adding to and supporting its continuation. My children, who came with me for the first time, were mightily impressed with the pub full of enthusiastic chorus singing, and want to do more of this. :)


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 09:49 AM

come to Penkhull(if you're near Stoke-on-Trent), tonight (Mon16th)never mind Dungworth. All five pubs on the perambulation, start at the White Lion at 7.30ish, finish at the Marquis of Granby. Some well known carols, some specifically local


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 11:24 AM

Standing room only at the Prince Albert in Stroud. The kiddies (Bob Bray's plus landlords) crawl through the legs, go round the outside and come back at the start & start crawling again. Huge fun, I have it on video (to be processed) plus plenty of audio of the Sheffield Carols. Not Kilmore, the ones they sing are from other villages, I did have chapter & verse but not to hand.
Still one more Sunday sing before Christmas. 12 pm.
The pianist is a hoot - does a lengthy riff with trills to keep the singists waiting between some verses. Much hilarity ensues! This is serious stuff, hence the many devout atheists have to join in.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 10:39 AM

Seen a number of comments complaining about the price of tap water at these local celebrations. Surely outsiders driving to participate in these otherwise free events hosted by a local landlord, would have the decency to purchase bottled water rather than request free tap water anyway? Pubs have a hard enough time staying open as it is, without outsiders expecting a free night's entertainment and taking up seats or space that paying customers would otherwise be able to use. I'm not surprised the landlords of these places charge for 'glass hire' if that's the kind of attitude they've come to expect from folkie tourists.


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 12:38 PM

How the heck do they hope to keep up without some libation?


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 06:44 PM

I am a regular at the sings and in the pub when it is not carolling singing. It is not a particularly big bar. Not a lot of space for staff. There are glasses to be washed and a variety of beer to be sold in that same area.

There are plenty of non-alcoholic drinks - including some good alcohol-free beer on sale. Asking for tap-water looks like folkies are cheapskates. if that is the impression you want to give in a place where (in reality) you are a guest for a couple of hours it is fine by me - but are you sure that is what you want?

When a round of drinks consists of lime and soda; glass of lemonade and three pints of tap water - wouldn't you be annoyed if you were running an extremely busy pub?


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 17 Dec 13 - 08:43 PM

Having read the recent postings regarding the drinks issue.

Yes, I have to agree that if the pubs were not open then the events could not occur.

However, the main reason I, whenever I am the driver, ask for a glass of tap water is twofold.

1) I happen to prefer it to the so called bottled stuff, which usually has additives I am not prepared to try.

2) Almost all the non-alcoholic stuff contains lots of sugar and loads of yet more additives.

I also prefer tap water in restaurants and cafes and, yes, I do drink tap water at home, but not exclusively. I do not drink tea, am happy with some instant coffees and certainly am not a fan of any of the designer coffees. Costa I found particularly abhorrent.

Just my personal taste of course and only partially related to (exorbitant) prices.

I have for many years followed the dictate of eating in restaurants and drinking in pubs and, if possible, not mixing the two. Try talking to most pub managers, tenants, landlords etc about wine if you want to waste some time!


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: bradfordian
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 03:34 PM

Here's another reason to stay away from the Sheffield carols, noisy, unruly revellers singing(?) such awful music at ear busting volume(just kidding....and..... if you all stay away, then maybe I CAN GET IN !!!)

Hail Smiling Morn


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Subject: RE: To visit The Sheffield Carol Pubs or not
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 13 - 08:35 PM

To try and establish the legal position as I understand it: there is a difference between offering tap water and offering tap water alongside alcohol.

Imagine: coach load of carollers pull up outside pub, all come inside, one buys a pint and rest demand tap water. Errr....no, not obliged to serve them. (Apart from the fact he is not obliged to serve anyone!).

Different coach, thirty people buy a pint and ask for tapwater alongside the pint. Obliged to serve tapwater.

So if you are a driver generously acting as a chauffeur, who doesn't drink what is on offer, wait outside!


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