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BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines!
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Jan 14 - 03:57 PM I've already noticed that for myself & acknldg'd my mistake, Jim, 15 jan, 1253 pm, pointing out coincidence that Performance also had a personality-merge theme & climax; as I said, the Fox & Jagger characters. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:50 AM "A nasty, fascist aggressor" There goes Thatcher - if she'd been given her head "Fox or Jagger?" Seem to be talking about two different films - I'm talking about the Bergman one where the main two characters eventually merged into one - I think you might be referring to 'Performance' - different ball game. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST Date: 16 Jan 14 - 08:06 AM one good thing is mrs t won't have to explain the belgrano to any argi sailor's where she is now, i would think she's very hot what evil thing she was |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:43 AM he ongoing spat between Argentina and Britain over the sovereignty of Falkland Islands just got a little tenser. Britain seems unwilling to back down from its support of the Falkland Islands' right to self-determination, making an amicable resolution to the conflict unlikely to come soon or easily. But Britain's backing of self-determination is not as simple as it seems. Last month, Argentinean President Cristina Fernandez spurred tension over British rule of the Falkland Islands at a two-day Mercosur summit in Montevideo, Uruguay, accusing the United Kingdom of extracting natural resources belonging to South America and refusing to engage in dialogue with Argentina over its claim to the territory. Without directly calling for Argentinean rule over the islands—known in Argentina as "Las Malvinas" — Fernandez did convince Mercosur countries, including Brazil, Uruguay, and Venezuela, to ban Falkland ships from docking in their ports. Related story: Growth of separatist movements in Europe This week, after several events that heightened tension between the two countries, British Prime Minister David Cameron accused Argentina of colonialist aspirations and articulated his country's support of the Islanders' right to decide their fate. "The key point is we support the Falkland Islanders' right to self-determination," he said. "What the Argentineans have been saying recently, I would argue is actually far more like colonialism because these people want to remain British and the Argentineans want them to do something else." Unsurprisingly, Argentina reacted very strongly, calling out the irony of British accusations. The United Kingdom's support of self-determination in the Falkland Islands only reveals the state's interest in retaining British control over the islands' considerable oil reserves and to deny Argentina any accommodation. By supporting self-determination in the Falkland Islands—which, in fact, does not want to spurn British rule — Britain appears to be abdicating all responsibility for an amicable solution that addresses Argentina's legitimate claim to the islands' natural resources. Some suggest that Cameron's heavy-handedness on the Falklands issue is designed to offset criticism of his administration's failures at home. His refusal to negotiate and talk to Argentina under UN Resolution 2065 only exacerbates already deteriorating ties. This is not to say that Argentina's demands are reasonable. The British, for their part, did try to negotiate with Argentina early on at the International Court of Justice at the Hague in 1947, 1948, and 1955. Argentina, however, refused mediation. Argentina does not recognize the Falkland Islands' right to self-determination, leaving negotiations without a starting point. And recent finger pointing at Britain's colonial past begs an examination of Argentina's own blighted and bloody record of persecuting indigenous minorities. falklands Britain's de facto stance of self-determination is not going to resolve this ongoing and tiresome dispute. Both sides must adjust their stances, review their policy goals, and put this conflict to rest once and for all. The first step would be to engage in discussions at the UN, without the name-calling. Britain's use of the Falkland Islands as a proxy for other national interests is unhelpful and undermines the democratic rights, specifically on security, to which Falkland Islanders' are entitled irrespective of which citizenship they hold. Photo Credit: U.S. Navy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:39 AM no double standard, i was stating a fact if you do not like it, tough, she did go to war when her electoral stock was falling. you wish to read things in to my post that is your problem, here is another fact thatcher was not concerned about going to war with pinochet, another fascist who overthrew a democratically elected regime., was she? she chose to fight argentina for a number of reasons other than fighting fascism, does it not occur to you that there were other reasons as well as protecting the people of the falklands,for instance, the word OIL. THERE COULD YET BE ANOTHER WAR WITH ARGENTINA ABOUT OIL.rather acenntuates my point about unecessary closing of coal mines and going to war for natural resources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:43 PM A nasty, fascist aggressor, with thousands of "disappeared" and their stolen babies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:03 PM she went to war when her electoral stock was falling. She went to war when an aggressor attacked a British dependency. Or are you against forced regime change when done by Pinochet, but in favour if done by Galtieri? Some double-standards here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:08 PM Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity, quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. Benito Mussolini. in my opinion, sums up mrs thatchers philosophy, so not incorrect to call her a fascist, she supported pinochet a fascist who overthrew a democratically elected regime, she went to war when her electoral stock was falling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:53 PM Oh, bum. Wrong film. I was thinking about Performance, coincidentally also about merged personalities. Yours was Bergman, wasn't it? Slipping, I fear. Blame old age... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:50 PM Out of interest, am I Fox or Jagger? Just asking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:46 PM "Er, you started the "I spy" game Jim" Apologies Mike - quite forgot there was another raving Thatcherite defending her fascism on this forum - just like in 'Persona' you appear to have merged into one entity - too late for the spoon, I'm afraid. The childish language remains all your own work though - well done Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:22 PM "Irony is wasted on the stupid" ― Oscar Wilde |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM For Christ's sake mthegm, either grow up or commit yourself to a lunatic asylum. Ever get past the potty training stage did you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 12:12 PM That wasn't my post, Jim. So why reply to it as if it was mine. Making assumptions again, instead of reading properly, that's why. Silly-billy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM "Er, you started the "I spy" game Jim." I made a point in perfectly good English - you reduced it to infantilke namecalling in childish gibberish. If I did anything wrong it was in creating a bolt-hole for you to avoid discussing Mrs Thatcher's fascism, your attempts to use semantics to deny it having crashed in flames some time back Now - Pinochet/Thatcher, or is that another subject you are about to do a runner on, as with your defence of Keith's "cultural implant"? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:38 AM WE HAVEN'T HAD ANY OF ITS PWETTY GWATE BIG SUGE WED LETTERS LATELY, WOT IT USES AS A SUBBY-WUBSTICHOOT FOR THOUGHT, HAVE WE, MY ICKETTY·ICKLE·WIDDY? NOT SULKI-WULKI-WULKING ARE WE??? DIDDUMS!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jan 14 - 11:23 AM no, i am saying, mrs thatcher was incorrect, she destroyed many communities, divided the nation, she decided not to use british coal for a political reason ,revenge for the 1973 strike and she was a liar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:40 AM Er, you started the "I spy" game Jim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:28 AM Fairly accurate, in the context I would have thought, as distict from "I spy with my ickle ℇ❣ɛ fumfing beginnink wiv" You are not putting an argument here Mike - I may not be right, but I am. Give us a break and grow up (I don't think I'm the only one to have asked you this. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:10 AM "Did you know you invariably resort to childishly abusive responses whenever you find yourself at a loss"... "Ah well, keep on goose-stepping" ,..,. 〠〠〠 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 10:03 AM Did you know you invariably resort to childishly abusive responses whenever you find yourself at a loss Ah well, keep on goose-stepping ,..,. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:59 AM Was Pin O'chet one of the irish miners? Why does no one here move on get a life |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:49 AM every country should attempt to be self sufficient as regards raw materials, the alternative is either going to war to get raw materials from someone else, or supporting undemocratic tyrannical regimes in the middle east., or importing cheaper fuel,and in the process destroying communities in the uk, creating ghettoes of unemployment, thatcher gave the miners who helped to save this country during the war a nice thankyou. So, are you aying that Maggie was correct. Buy coal cheaply elsewhere when we can, then, if there's another war, our reserves have not been depleted? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 14 - 09:02 AM "Better be careful of that temper of yours, Jim" No temper Mike, can't remember having so much fun since my father let me sit with him on his bulldozer when he was clearing up the dredgings from the Manchester Ship Canal - all those rats scurrying out of the rotting garbage - ah, it takes me back! Did you know you invariably resort to childishly abusive responses whenever you find yourself at a loss for an answer - just thought I'd mention it? Now - any chance of an adult discussion on the Thatcher/Pinochet love affair and how it affected Britain - why do I doubt the answer is yes. Ah well, keep on goose-stepping, the pair of you - it'll have to do for the time being. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:29 AM Better be careful of that temper of yours, Jim, and stop posting so readily when it's so hot. It leads you to filling other people's posts with your agenda of what you think they must have meant, and other such discreditable & culpable offensiveness, leavibg you looking very silly and undermining what virtues there might be in your lefty doctraire fatuities. In fact, carry on. You are just going to make a fool of yourself ~~ again. I spy with my ickle ℇ❣ɛ fumfing beginnink wiv SDI ~~ nowt to do with Serial digital interface or Strategic Defense Initiative: give up? self destructive idiocy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM "Democracy? So who elected her," I'm tempted to say the same type of people who elected Hitler. But of course, it's never as simple as that, is it. Thatcher was elected on a number of counts - just as her counterpart in pre-war Germany was - a combination of a series of reasons. Thatcher won the day because of the incompetence and betrayal of her predecessors, and the selling of a dream that benefited some but impoverished many more - fairly obvious from your responses, which group you come from. The "Will Of The People" allows us to elect leaders on thhe basis of promises that are never kept and of them playing on our own fears and prejudices (shits like Powell with his Rivers of Blood speech, backed up by turdules like you and your fick mate - no change with the present mob, of course) None of us get the Government we are promised and few of us get the Government that we want - unfortunately, that's how parliamentary democracy works - little if anything to do with real democracy and the will of the people. Attempting to blame the electorate for Thatcher's stated fascism doesn't alter in one bit that she was a fascist that took her power to the extreme, and would have taken it further, if allowed - you can blame the people if you like, personally I blame the set-up that allows them to attain power. I don't suppose for one minute that you are going to respond in any way to the implications of Thatcher's support for a mass murderer and her describing his behaviour as "democratic" - which says more about you than it does about her repressive period in office. Persisting with these arguments really does bring the rats out of their holes I spy with my little eye, Something beginning with F (two of them) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jan 14 - 07:04 AM We are only talking about coal. It is plentiful and cheap, and we got it from Australia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 15 Jan 14 - 06:09 AM every country should attempt to be self sufficient as regards raw materials, the alternative is either going to war to get raw materials from someone else, or supporting undemocratic tyrannical regimes in the middle east., or importing cheaper fuel,and in the process destroying communities in the uk, creating ghettoes of unemployment, thatcher gave the miners who helped to save this country during the war a nice thankyou. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:05 AM Labour governments rarely had a mandate from the English people. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim McLean Date: 15 Jan 14 - 05:03 AM Thatcher came to power in 1979 with 22 Scottish MPs out of 71, in 1983 she had 21, in1987 she had 10, in 1992 the Tories had 11, in 1997 they had 0 and since then only one Scotitish Conservative MP is in the Westminster parliament. The question as to whether Scotland should elect its own parliament is a no brainer. Since Thatcher's time the Tories have never had a mandate from the Scottish people. She lied through her teeth and secretly cut the Scottish budget, she tried the Poll tax on Scotland first, she destroyed the coal industry, she conned people into buying their own homes thus drying up affordable houses which taxpayers had funded in the first place, she kowtowed to fascists like Pinochet .... She was an evil, nasty lier and should be remembered as such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: selby Date: 15 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM According to Media reports whilst the lions (miners) where following the donkey (Scargill) he was ripping the miners off. Another court case looming over how he used funds. Maggie picked the man for the fight and he did not disappoint, if he had had a second ballot, the TUC would have supported him but he refused as he knew best, IMHO both as bad as each other. If we continue into modern times governments in this country still treat the north of England with contempt, as a snap shot take a look at the Tour de France coming to Yorkshire see what the government thought about that. Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:49 AM Democracy? So who elected her, if not the δεμος, then? You lefties [you haven't answered my question, so 'lefty' will do for now] are all for your precious "Democracy' until it comes up with a result you don't like. Not quite so bloody 'democratic' then, are we, eh, wotwotwot! How very dare you! speak so slightingly of the demonstrated 'Will Of The People' ['For the People, By The People']? Bloody arrogance! ~M~ Did you all, BTW, know that what Lincoln said [or rather pronounced] at Gettysburg was not, as so oft cited , "Government OF the people, FOR the people, BY the people', but "Government of the PEOPLE, for the PEOPLE by the PEOPLE" ~~ emphasis on 'people' each time, rather than, as so often malquoted, on its governing preposition. I read this once in the memoirs of one who was there, written later to correct this popular misconception. Just thought this worth mentioning. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 15 Jan 14 - 03:11 AM "Her achievements can be viewed in different lights from different standpoints" As I said - Mussolini made the trains run on time, or claimed to Thatcher's fascism comes from her own mouth. You have a description of Pinochet's actions. You have Thatcher's open support of Pinochet. You have the effect that Thatcher's policy had on the less well off of Britain You have Thatchers use of the police and intended use of the army during the miners strike Put them together and what have you got "bippety, bobbety, boo" no doubt! What we don't have is the knowledge of which 'Santiago Stadium' she would have used had the unrest her policies caused continued - White City, Wembley......? The London Dome would have been handy, had it been built then - handy todispose of the bodies into the Thames after she'd finished with them. As I said, there, but for the grace of - whoever, nearly went Britain. Long live democracy, as long as it's not Pinochet and Thatcher's particular version of it. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Jan 14 - 03:07 PM All true, Jim. When have I ever denied any of it, lipservicely or otherwise? It's just your inaccurate use of the precisely definable term fascist: tho must admit that it has become vulgarised into a term of vulgar meaningless abuse, so I suppose it will serve your turn OK. Her achievements can be viewed in different lights from different standpoints, is all. Don't bother to be sarcastic about Adolf being kind to dogs & such; heard it all too often before. But I remain hilariously entertained as ever by the knots all you great Supporters Of Democracy can tie yourselves into when the δεμος has the temerity to vote for something you lefties dislike. (Or aren't you even a lefty? You are very good at shape-shifting evasions when it comes to defining what you are. So come on now: come on out, & tell us how you would like to be described politically ~~ & don't fall back on humanist again; not a political designation by any stretch...) ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:38 PM Which of this do you believe not to be true Mike? Just curious Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 02:32 PM "OK, so go on calling them fascists" I will Mike I have repeatedly described how Pinochet behaved - he overthrew a legally elected government, murdered the president, rounded up all opposition into Santiago Stadium where they were tortured, raped and eventually murdered - in their thousands - all to impose an unelected regime, which continued to suppress all opposition. When he was finally forced, mainly by international pressure and mounting opposition from within, to call an election, he had his troops and loyal police, harass those bravely standing in those elections, he built up a record on all of them, presumably to put them through the same procedures as those who opposed his coup. On the morning of the election he stationed armoured cars and troops outside many of the polling stations in order to influence of the vote, and when the final count was announced in Santiago, Pinochet's armoured cars lined the streets in the hope of having the whole thig called off. When he was put under house arrest in London, Thatcher befriended him and lobbied for his release, accusing those who had arrested him f "running a police state". The put the support of the Conservative Party at his disposal, holding a rally in his support - at that rally she described him as a "true democrat and a friend of Britain". She was eventually influential in preventing him from coming to trial for his crimes against humanity. Neither she, her party colleagues and ministers (and her latter-day supporters, it would seem), never once explained or withdrew their support from her or their behaviour - they (and you) remain unrepentant - though in fairness, you have paid a little mealy mouthed lip service to Pinochet's fascism - why wouldn't you when yo reall have no alternative if you don't wish to appear quite as fascist as she was. When she fought the miners she openly used the police force as both rabble-rousers, then as physical opponents to the strike in exactly the way I have depicted. It has transpired that she was days away from using the army to break the miners strike. She was fascist scum - as are those who support her behaviour, both in regard to the fascist dictator Pinochet and by her behaviour towards the British people - whatever her supporters, then and now thought of her and still think of her - all pigs out of the same sty as far as I'm concerned. "my calling you a Commie or a Marxist" If you had any evidence I was either (as you bent over backward to establish at one time, I have little doubt that you wouldn't hesitate to do so. As it is, you constantly intimate that that I might be (why else would you continue to raise the terms?) On the other hand, your moronic adopted ward constantly does so, throwing in "racist" and "anti-Semite" for good measure. I would guess that Attilla the Hun would be regarded as a ranting leftie to the pair of you. Feel free to use such terms whenever the mood takes you - it adds a little lightness to the depressing picture you and your kind present of humanity. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Jan 14 - 12:41 PM OK, so go on calling them fascists, Jim. But have at least the decency & humility to recognise that it is precisely as accurate a designation as my calling you a Commie or a Marxist, to which you have frequently taken exception as as an inaccurate summation of your position & beliefs. So how about a bit of pots'n'kettles, then? As if. & you have the gall to talk about me paying 'lip·service': a phrase you seem to understand about as well as you seem to know what 'fascist' means. So go on wallowing in your constant catachreses, & hope it keeps fine 4U! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 11:43 AM Not in any way suggesting that any Labour (or other Conservative) goverment were/are fascists - just that they did nothing to right her fascist behaviour - spineless suckers up to big business all Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 11:40 AM "Did any subsequent Labour government ever reinstate " the grip of the Trades Union movement on British industry?"" No they fucking didn't - they are equally as bad as Thatcher and her mob What's your point? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM By the way, whoever these "certain people/sections/unions," (you chose not to specify), has#d any of them broke the law, the police were perfectly entitled to arrest them, charge them, place restriction orders on them, bind them over to keep the peace.... a host of legal actions they were entitled to take, which they never did. Had the situation got out of hand, they were entitled to apply for a state of emergency to be declared - it never was. The repressive, provocative and violent behaviour was entirely a decision taken by the police from the beginning of the strike. Had the police not been regarded as above the law and answerable only to their own superiors they would have been prosecuted for violent and unruly behaviour - they never where. Thatcher used the police as a dictator uses them, as a private army to achieve political ends Just as her friend Pinochet, she was prepared to use the army in the same way - as recently revealed documents have shown Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:53 AM Did any subsequent Labour government ever reinstate " the grip of the Trades Union movement on British industry?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 08:25 AM "but how did she use the police/army/judiciary to repress their views?" In practical terms - one of your "certain people/sections/unions," it would seem http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffield/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8217000/8217946.stm Elsewhere it has been established that part of Thatcher/MacGregor's agenda was to loosen the grip of the Trades Union movement on British industry Dawn raids on miners homes, the sealing off of entire mining villages with police road blocks, police waving their pay packets at miners struggling to feed their families..... all is part of the history of the miners strike Nigel. As I said, classic fascism - the state versus the people. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:45 AM Relying on foreign coal was no risk. There was plenty and it was cheap. We mostly bought Australian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:23 AM When she forced the closures of the mines she put nothing in their place - this led to the destruction and impoverishment of entire communities" Correct, it also meant that The UK, had to rely on foreign fuel imports. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 14 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM Thatcher was prepared and actually did use the police, the army and the judiciary to repress the views of people defending their livelihood, their homes and their way of life - the classic actions of a fascist politician How so? I can understand that she used those powers available to her to restrict the actions of certain people/sections/unions, but how did she use the police/army/judiciary to repress their views? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:32 AM By the way - your attempts to use semantics to defend Thatcher's behaviour is equally as evasive as your use of Keith's cut-'n-pastes. Thatcher was prepared and actually did use the police, the army and the judiciary to repress the veiws of people defending their livelihood, their homes and their way of life - the classic actions of a fascist politician If it waddles and quacks it's almost certainly a duck Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 Jan 14 - 04:26 AM Your reference to her still being hated by large sections of the population and her support for Pinochet are no more than lip-service unless you address the reasons for them That she was and still is popular with sections of the population is totally immaterial. Thatcher was a fascist - you nor any of her supporters have even attempted to disprove that fact other than, i your patronising way, to claim that I don't understand fascism. Her lasting legacy was to respectabalise greed; the turned homes into 'commodities'invested in, the ripped out the heart of British industry and she removed the safety net that British Society (that she didn't believe existed) had created to ascertain that the less well-off didn't suffer too much by government and buisiness failures and indifference. When she forced the closures of the mines she put nothing in their place - this led to the destruction and impoverishment of entire communities. Tebbitt summed it up when he told us "we should all get on our bikes and leave home to seek work" - not something anybody with a streak of humanity in them tells a miner with a family who has just lost his job because his pit has closed. We are still living with the 'dog-eat-dog' society that Thatcher created. She not only ruined many of our lives, but she debased the huanity of many of her subjects. That she remains popular with those she debased is immaterial - Hitler was once a popular feller with a lot of people I'm told, and remains so with some. You're doing Keith's trick of hiding behind meaningless cut-'n-pastes to put forward superficial arguments and ignoring the salient facts of Thatcher's reign of terror. Did she support Pinochet? Was Pinochet a fascist (by your definition (whatever that is) or mine? Did she declare his behaviour "democratic"? What does that make her as a politician? She was a fascist and she admitted to that fact by her statements and, in my opinion, by her actions An answer to these would be far more preferable than your mealy-mouthed lip-service Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 14 Jan 14 - 01:10 AM "is, and hopefully will remain the most hated Prime Minister in British history – it says little for her continuing supporters and for those less affected by her policies that she received the support she did" ... & continues to do so, Jim, quite widely. Is not Guest KeithA's post of 9 Jan, 1031 AM not a bit enlightening? I have at least twice conceded the force of your point about the hatred among sections of the population. And admit also that it was the ill-judged support of Pinochet, which I in no way defend, which began the undermining of this which culminated in her ultimate defeat over the Poll Tax. But it is no use your claiming that she did not thru most of her time in office command a considerable majority of pro's over antis. ~M~ And I still think this loose use of the emotive term 'fascist', which ought to have a precise political connotation but has degenerated into such an all-purpose term of denunciation as to have lost both accuracy and effectiveness, is one of those which should be avoided as undermining of the user's argument because blunted by overuse, and so liable to reduce what should be a valid argument to a cliché: tho must concede that an effective alternative does not come instantly to mind. 'Totalitarian' perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Van Date: 13 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM There seems to be a strange misunderstanding of the UK electoral system. People elect an MP not a PM. The majority party appoint a leader they become PM. Thatcher took over a form of presidential rule, copied by her bastard son Blair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jan 14 - 10:54 AM Should read - "and restrict the access of many of us to rights, access to justice, health, education - of course - though, how could we not know that (outside of Cambridgeshire and England's privileged soft-underbelly, of course), Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 13 Jan 14 - 09:48 AM "It's all very well attacking her memory & trying to belittle her achievements: but the public attitudes to which I have alluded are matters of fact and record, and it is idle to pretend that they are not." Thatcher's contribution to the 'society' she believed didn't existed was to tear it down the middle, creating a rich/poor, employed/unemployed, comfortable/struggling Britain – not only did she deliberately increase unemployment, homelessness, want, rights, access to justice, health, education.... but she radically reduced the necessary state support of those her shitty policies directly affected – that's what her "no society" speech was all about. Please don't hand us that guff about her giving us all "the right to buy" - as a domestic electrician I witnessed up close the losing of homes by those who had allowed themselves to be conned by her "dream" and found themselves unable to pay mortgages. I'm sure not much of this reached the leafy lanes of Cambridgeshire, but members of my family are still reeling from the effects of her inhuman policies. One of hers and MacGregor's motives for the miners' strike was to mute the voice of the Trades Unions – however flawed, they are and remain the only say we have in how we live our lives. There is no question that it was an integral part of their policy to end that say (see Goodman's 'The Enemy Within') Please don't patronise me – I know full well what fascism is – a little better than you, it would appear, though I have no doubt of its effects. Thatchers's support of fascism in Chile speaks for itself, but if that were not enough, her use of the police as a private army, and her intended (and possibly actual) use of the army against striking miners makes her a fascist in the classic sense – using the forces of law and order and the military to impose the will of the state on people fighting for their livelihood and their hard-won rights (a perfect example of Mussolini's 'bundle of staves' . Thatcher is, and hopefully will remain the most hated Prime Minister in British history – it says little for her continuing supporters and for those less affected by her policies that she received the support she did for tearing Britain in half. You people studiously avoid her support for the mass murder carried out in Chile – it has taken this long for you even to respond to it i the feeble way you have. Do you think she was having a bad blue-rinse hair day when she handed the Conservative Party to Pinochet on a plate, the way she did? Somehow I doubt it – rather she had found a soul-mate, a fellow-fascist Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 13 Jan 14 - 07:55 AM It is 15 minutes of Dennis Skinner. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 13 Jan 14 - 07:13 AM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVHuxixPJRA |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Jan 14 - 03:23 PM She was not 'my heroine', Dick. I merely state facts as to the attitudes she inspired [both pro & anti, a point I had made which you missed & which I had to draw to your attention by quoting my previous posts]. I do not defend her attitude to the iniquitous Pinochet; simply accept it as a fact, & note that it was not that which led to her loss of the support of the electorate ~~ it was her hubristic losing of the plot over the Poll Tax & her refusal to listen to advice or reason on that topic which did that. Tho I must add that she was not the first, nor was she the last, to lie for reasons of policy with unsavoury bedfellows [metaphor, I promise] for political reasons ~~ look at the accommodations made by governments & politicians over the years with the obnoxious Saudi regime, for instance. It's all very well attacking her memory & trying to belittle her achievements: but the public attitudes to which I have alluded are matters of fact and record, and it is idle to pretend that they are not. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jan 14 - 03:03 PM Michael, do you agree or not agree that pinochet had about 300 criminal charges still pending against him in Chile for numerous human rights violations during his 17-year rule, and tax evasion and embezzlement during and after his rule;[13] he was accused of having corruptly amassed at least US$28 million, do you also acknowledge that between 1,200 and 3,200 people were killed, up to 80,000 people were interned and as many as 30,000 were tortured during the time Pinochet was in government. are you aware that he overhrew a democratically elected regime. This was the person your heroine Thatcher defended |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:14 PM ... but in fact, Jim, I have to repeat that your problem is that you don't really know what 'fascist' means; and you are not Humpty Dumpty, who chose for himself what a word meant. "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean..." I fear that the coincidence of your sharing the [assumed] name of his author quite justifies your uncontrolled and promiscuous 'fascist'-scattering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Jan 14 - 01:04 PM MtheGMist |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 10 Jan 14 - 12:21 PM I am with Jim on this, Thatcher misled the electorate. Her defence of Pinochet was inexcusable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jan 14 - 10:47 AM Fascist! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Jan 14 - 08:17 AM Sexist! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jan 14 - 07:09 AM Sorry - that should read 'humanitarian with a small h' - memo, never try to do two things at one - only women are good at multi-tasking Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:53 AM WYou call yourself a socialist but have always been" When did do that Mike? Whenever my politics has come up I have described myself as a humanist (with a small e), and a pacifist (sort of) My politics has nothing to do with what I have said - here (unless you want to claim that Thatcher's fascisim is all a Trotskyist plot) and is none of your ******* business, as I have pointed out before. You are now crudely indulging in McCarthyite smear tactics to avoid acknowledging Thatchers' fascist leanings - you are not even as good at it as he was, but practice.... as the man told the lady,,,,,, Carnegie Hall. I could claim that yours (and the Iron lady's) views are not unsimilar to those who sent six million human beings to their deaths in Europe's gas chambers during the course of both our lives, but I try to avoid taking any discussion into the sewers. You obviously have no such qualms. Whatever my politics are, I'm fairly confident that they would never lead my to the defence of those who suggest that mass murder is in any way a form of democracy, let alone, a shining example of it Jim Carroll By the way - I have no problems in discussing my politics with those I respect, not agree with, just respect, and am confident they will not be used as a substitute for honest argument. You're name isn't even on the waiting list |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 10 Jan 14 - 05:11 AM Just the response I expected, Jim. You call yourself a socialist but have always been, and remain, peculiarly cagy as to what sort of socialism you espouse or have ever espoused. So why are you so scared of coming out, then? Scaredy-cat? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 10 Jan 14 - 04:43 AM "How many of your way of thinking went on loving Stalin until Khruschev et al generously allowed them to perceive the truth, eh Jim? " You once, somewhat McCarthy-like tried to find my politics, you failed miserably. Now you resort, as your kind always do, to resort to smears in a rather desperate attempt to implicate me with Stalinism. You really didn't take a long-enough spoon to that dinner party as I advised you to do – you have become every bit as crudely squalid as your protégé Jim Carroll http://mneumann.tripod.com/pinochet.html From the BBC news. Baroness Thatcher has accused the UK Government of acting like a police state in sanctioning the arrest and extradition case against Chile's General Augusto Pinochet. Her defence of the former Chilean dictator at a fringe meeting at the Conservative Party conference was every bit as strong as expected, but although Lady Thatcher was greeted with an ovation her reception was more muted than many had expected. She told Tories in Blackpool it was vital for the party to fight the government on this case. "We must pay heed to the implications of an international lynch law, which under the guise of defending human rights now threatens to subvert British justice and the rights of sovereign nations." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/10119163/Thatcher-and-Pinochet-turned-into-opera.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Jan 14 - 11:49 PM I might have realised you were a Trot. The anglicisation of foreign names is pretty common practice; and as this name was written in a different alphabet anyhow there is no reason for it to be transliterated as ending in -f rather than -ph in any event -- so ignoramus right back 2U, matey. Though the -f spelling is actually pretty rare - NB eg "Joseph Stalin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". Is 'Josef' perhaps some sort of Trot affectation? No need for any more reply; Allan has said it all -- many thanks, Allan. I would add nevertheless that reminding Jews of their supposed responsibilities, and extrapolating from that to tell them dogmatically what ought to be their opinions, constitutes a clear instance of antisemitism as defined by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency), who in 2005 published a working definition of antisemitism. So Antisemite Trot to boot, then... & now shut up, please, you disagreeable fool, and do not trouble yourself to respond, as I shan't even bother to read any more posts from your charming self. ☠~M~☠ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:25 PM The idea that someone can't criticise Stalin because they are perhaps of Jewish extraction is a strange way to go. Stalin was like Hitler a mass murderer of the worst kind. Stalin didn't choose to join the war when he did. The Soviet Union was attacked. They had no choice but to fight. At the start of the war Stalin of course was in cahoots with Hitler carving up Poland between them as well as attacking Finland. I think it is perfectly possible to appreciate the sacrifice of the Soviet people in that war whilst still condemning Stalin for his monstrous crimes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST Date: 09 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM Guest Trotskyite Deviationist. MtheGM, Josef Stalin[please note correct spelling] saved your life by entering the war, never mind any talk lets deal with actions. I am not saying Stalin was an angel, he was not, he did many terrible things but us having to put up with you on this forum, is in an indirect way due to Josef Stalin, please have the grace to admit this, and please get the spelling of his name correct you ignoramus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Jan 14 - 04:48 PM Of course, Guest [whoever you are, my little charmer], Uncle Joe gave specific orders that Stalingrad must not fall as it might just mean the end of Michael! In fact, what saved me was the fact that idiot Adolf decided he hated the Bolshies even more than me & decided to get them first, as he had enough European Jews to get rid of without bothering with the few over here. But, seriously, as to Stalin's own relations to us, here's a couple of extracts from a wiki article which you might do well to have a look at before spouting any more of your ½·witted pigshit.:- Stalin and antisemitism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia --- Though communist leaders including Joseph Stalin publicly denounced antisemitism, instances of antisemitism on Stalin's part have been witnessed by contemporaries and documented by historical sources... During his meeting with Ribbentrop, Stalin promised him to get rid of the "Jewish domination", especially among intellectuals... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:49 PM M THE G M, If it had not been for the allies including Stalin and the importance of the battle of stalingrad, you being of jewish extraction would be dead, put to death in a concentration camp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Jan 14 - 11:56 AM How many of your way of thinking went on loving Stalin until Khruschev et al generously allowed them to perceive the truth, eh Jim? I could name you at least a dozen, just from my own acquaintance, starting with my own brother-in-law's brother & sister-in-law, Eric & Eve Cohen ~~ lovely people both, but there were things they just didn't want to know. Never let your own history with regard to Dear Old Uncle Joe become public for that matter, have you then, Jim? What would you have said if anyone had asked you about him in about 1950? No surprise there... Best, as ever - ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Jan 14 - 11:41 AM "Except for the enlightened, like the perspicacious Carroll & the inspired & eloquent Bridge" And yet once again Thatcher's support and admiration for a mass murder and his "democracy" is given the blessing of the Thatcherites. No surprise there. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,keith A Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:31 AM A survey of current MPs, reported in Guardian last week. Margaret Thatcher emerged as the MPs' choice as the most successful prime minister since the end of the second world war, narrowly ahead of Labour's Clement Attlee. Winston Churchill - whose wartime leadership often secures him top spot in polls of the best prime ministers, came only fourth when judged solely on his 1951-55 term. Sandwiched between the immediate post-war premiers in the poll – which did not include David Cameron – was Tony Blair, who won three consecutive general elections from 1997. Fifth spot was taken by Harold Macmillan, followed by Harold Wilson, Sir John Major, James Callaghan, Sir Edward Heath, Sir Alec Douglas-Home and Sir Anthony Eden. Bottom of the table was Gordon Brown. Of the MPs who responded to the questionnaire, 69 were Conservative, 67 Labour, 14 Lib Dem and eight from other parties. Those from the two largest parties were generally more supportive of PMs from their own side, with the exception of Heath who was ranked higher by Labour than Tory MPs. http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jan/02/mps-decisiveness-prime-minister-survey |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: selby Date: 09 Jan 14 - 10:02 AM In the UK our election of a prime minister depends as to that person being the leader of the party with most seats. In this country not many people go to rallies to hear candidates speak they probably vote how they feel. We do not elect the Sir Humphrey's who run the Departments, they are career politicians and I believe detached from reality. If you disagree with the Prime Minister that is your right in a free and democratic country but calling them names is a bit childish, argue against them criticise them by all means but name calling. I sometimes wonder when I hear Vitriol against Maggie whether it is born out of being frightened by a successful woman. As with all PM,s sometimes they get it right and sometimes they get it wrong and most of the time they are disingenuous. Just think at the next Election with the right vote Nick Clegg could be PM Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Jan 14 - 07:19 AM "If all the public see are lies then that is all they will know." ,..,.,., Except for the enlightened, like the perspicacious Carroll & the inspired & eloquent Bridge, of course, whose eternal mission it is to see everything with so much clarity & to know it all so much better then the rest of us. And to express their enlightenment with so much inspiring cogency, with their everlasting 'bitches' & 'thugs' & 'fascist arses'. Why, dear me! What should we all do without the likes of them to put us all in our places! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: banjoman Date: 09 Jan 14 - 05:32 AM Thatcher kept her promise to "Put the country on its feet" Because of her anti union policies I spent almost 4 years walking the streets looking for a job. No buses, no trains no car. Yes she certainly did put us on our feet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Jan 14 - 04:37 AM Her popularity arose from the right-wing publicity machine - just like the present government's policy of demonising all claimants. If all the public see are lies then that is all they will know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:45 AM However popular Thatcher was - she supported a mass-murdering fascist dictator, declared him great democrat, described those who attempted to bring him to trial as "running a police state" and put the Conservative Party at his disposal in order to prevent him being brought to justice. All the Huffington Post quotes in the world will not alter any of those facts one iota. I seem to remember a little feller with a mustache being rather "popular" with the German people at one time - six million who wouldn't have liked him if they had survived wouldn't have liked him very much. Thatcher was a political thug who admired fascist dictators and supported their murderous policies - I have little doubt that, if she hadn't been kicked out on her fascist arse, she would have utilised as many of those policies as the thought she could get away with to put us in our places - the fact that she considered using the army to crush the miners sttrike is indication enough of that. That she was "popular" with many of the British people really doesn't say a great deal for those people, nor does it say for her continuing admirers who support her fascism by refusing to acknowledge it - or even discuss it. She she is, and will remain the most directly hated Prime Minister Britain has ever know. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 09 Jan 14 - 03:25 AM Huffington Post, April 2013. The YouGov poll of 1,893 adults declared her the nation's favourite prime minister. Sir Winston - Britain's leader during the Second World War and again from 1951 to 1955 - was in second place with 24% of the vote, and Tony Blair in third with 10%. Thatcher was named as the best of the 13 prime ministers since 1945 Lady Thatcher was regarded as a "great" or "good" prime minister by 52% of people, while 30% deemed her "poor" or "terrible". Almost half of those polled (48%) felt she left Britain economically better off, while 60% felt she left it more respected in the world. More than half (51%) believed she created more opportunities for women, but just 36% declared she left society more free, and almost half (49%) said she left a less equal society. Baroness Thatcher gladly adopted the moniker of the "Iron Lady" and 72% of those polled felt she stuck to what she believed in, with 66% saying she was a strong leader and 59% saying she was a decisive prime minister. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 09 Jan 14 - 12:33 AM Dick: I have already dealt with your non-point twice above -- Though I should, I suppose, add for fairness that, as well as being IMO the most popular PM in my recollection, she was also simultaneously the most hated by other sections of the populace. I appreciate that things will have been different in other parts of the country; but even that didn't prevent her repeated re-election, Now go back to sleep, please; there's a dear fellow. You are becoming insufferably repetitive and boring and I shan't even trouble to respond to you again on this topic. Best ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:47 PM GSS you are of course right. In Scotland, and no doubt other places too, she was deeply unpopular. In fact it seemingly really bothered her that she was so unpopular in Scotland. She couldn't understand why! She of course was divisive. Many leaders are. Alex Salmond has been by far the most popular Scottish First Minister and his ratings were, though not so much now, incredibly high at one point. Yet he is a bit like Man Utd in England. They are the most popular club in England yet at the same time they are probably the most hated too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:34 PM M the G M, the fact that you talked to certain people on trains or decorators or whatever , only indicates that she was popular in your orbit, which was in this case cambridgeshire, and ely, london and the home counties presumably, did you visit mining villages in yorkshire or durham and ask their opinion?, no i bet you did not, you might have got a different response. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:42 PM How would you describe Pinochet? How would you describe someone who claims him to a doyen of democracy? How would you describe someone who accuses those who put him under house arrest in order that he could be put on trial for his crimes as "running a police state"? Just an everyday Conservative maybe? Fascist she was - it was a close call for those of us who dissent - not keen on being found floating face down in the Thames with my genitals removed, ta very much - similar happened to Pinochet's victims. Perhaps you fancy guitar lessons like the one they gave Victor Jara!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Richard Bridge Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:49 AM Ollie - like it or not, Thatcher was a bitch. I'd have been just as rude about her if she had been male, but in different terms. You should see that. She was vastly more regressive than any other post-was British leader. I half agree with you that " British class bigotry would never allow working people actually to get a decent wage and the involvement of the military and secret police show they would stop at nothing." I am not sure that it was class prejudice though. You need to check what I have said on this thread about Ireland and take off your blinkers. Ireland's political landscape (that's the Republic of Ireland) is blighted by god-bothering and repression to an extraordinary extent - oh, and maybe just a bit more fraud in high places than other countries, remember the Mahon Tribunal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:40 AM 'Fascist' a bit of a boo-word in the context, eh, Jim? Now, why am I not surprised either? It is, tho, to take the comment more seriously than it deserves, a word of some precise political significance. You have taken exception in the past to my describing you as a Marxist, because you deny beliefs that would subsume that particular precise political implication. So shouldn't you pay Mrs T a like courtesy and refrain from inaccurately using labels which attribute to her political beliefs which she did not hold? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jan 14 - 11:01 AM Still no comment on Thatcher's Fascist tendencies - why am I not surprised? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM Well: that's war. Hardly Mrs Thatcher's fault that what is what happens in wars. War is like punishment ~~ an obviously ridiculous way of settling anything, but nobody had for some reason ever managed to come up with a better one. The dead were professional fighting men. They engage in the job and are aware of its risks. What are your grounds, Fred, for attributing that offensive belief to anyone, 'that the dead of the other side don't matter'? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 08 Jan 14 - 10:39 AM Well that's just dandy. Thatcher, from the comfort of the Downing Street war room, orders the destruction of the Belgrano. The Argentinian high command, from the comfort of their bunkers say it's ok because that's war. Meanwhile 323 Argentinian sailors lie dead at the bottom of the ocean and nothing will bring them back to life. Of all the things I hate about war, the item which is right at the top of my list is the belief that the dead of the other side don't matter. Maybe the Geneva Convention wasn't broken, but its spirit certainly was, as were the hearts of every single relative of those sailors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 10:06 AM Indeed. Thank you, Keith. And having investigated further, I find that professional Argentine senior officers regarded what happened as a legitimate hazard of war to be anticipated:- 'Argentine Rear Admiral Allara, who was in charge of the task force that the Belgrano was part of, said, "After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano". Captain Bonzo also told Middlebrook [author of a book about the incident] that he was not angry about the attack on his ship and "The limit [exclusion zone] did not exclude danger or risks; it was all the same in or out".' Wikipedia ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 08 Jan 14 - 09:09 AM On May 7th, 1982, Argentina complained to the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva which ruled that the vessel, though outside the TEZ, was within the security zone of British ships in the area; was fully armed and engaged in operations and that therefore there was no breach of the Geneva Convention. The action was perfectly legal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 08:15 AM Oh, all right, Fred. Pax. Cruzes. Fanites. If you will be civil this time around, so will I. I don't think either of us emerged with that much credit from that previous encounter; so how about we try and forget it? I fear that, try as I might, I am just no good at sulking, and would always rather be on cordial terms with anyone if I can. So. Hatchet buried? Please... We obviously differ as to what constitutes 'a war crime', and how far the Belgrano incident met such a definition. Events were explicitly on a war footing. She was a warship belonging to a hostile state in time of war; sailing away for the purpose of recouping and 'living to fight another day'. How far the concept of exclusion zones, especially self-imposed ones, are valid in such situations must obviously be unclear. My view is that the prevention of an enemy warship's re-engaging in hostilities at some future date is an obvious recourse for any commander in the field [or, in this case, at sea] to embrace. But I can see why mileages will inevitably differ, both in general principle and in this specific instance; and do not claim to be enough of a historian, legalist, or philosopher to try dogmatically to argue the intricacies of the matter. It just seems to my lay mind to have been a valid tactic in a war situation. SFAIK no international body or court has ever determined otherwise. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 08 Jan 14 - 07:13 AM "Don't care what anyone says, I think she's great." In 1998 Margaret Thatcher organised a rally in support of mass murderer Augusto Pinochet in Kensington in London. The hall was bedecked with British and Chilean flags, the platform backed by a crossed Chilean flag and a Union Jack. Thatcher and one of her cabinet ministers addressed the assembled audience. She described Pinochet as a shining example of democracy and accused those responsible for his arrest as "running a police state". Pinochet was directly responsible for the arrest, torture, rape and mass murder of unknown thousands of mainly young Chilean citizens guilty of nothing more than protesting the taking over of Chile by a fascist junta. Thatcher admired and openly supported this murderous thug - she was one of those who ascertained that he never came to trial for his crimes against humanity. Thatcher and Pinochet died peacefully in their beds - I trust they managed to find adjacent seats by the fire. The fate of thousands of Pinochet's (and Thatcher's, by association) victims remain a mystery. Fickle thing, public opinion - as six million German Jews found out in the 19450s. Must dig out my DVD of Coriolanus!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Jan 14 - 07:00 AM "But more voted for her than voted for any other person. (or, at least, voted for their local Conservative candidate)" I think that says it all really. People also vote based on party or local candidate and not necessarily only on who is the party leader. Plus of course for at least part of her tenure she didn't have much opposition as Labour was in disarray. I seem to remember Blair was pretty unpopular by the time of his last election victory yet the party still won. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:42 AM 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:33 AM how can she be popular when more people voted against her than for her, yes and that goes for every other post war prime minister, regardless of party, there is nothing silly about that. Yes, more voted agaist her than for her, But more voted for her than voted for any other person. (or, at least, voted for their local Conservative candidate) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 08 Jan 14 - 06:02 AM MtheGM. I have no desire to be dragged into yet another round of stupid insults from you. However, the Belgrano was outside the British imposed 200 mile exclusion zone, and sailing away from said zone when she was fired on by the British with a loss of over 300 lives. If that doesn't constitute an international war crime, I don't know what does. If you choose to respond to this missive, could you please do so without the usual farrago of insults and idiotic baby talk? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 05:24 AM I wasn't going by ratings solely, Allan, [nor by numbers, Dick -- do you really think then that there is nothing to choose between the popularity/unpopularity of any PMs, based purely on the consideration that none has ever enjoyed a numerical majority of the electorate as a whole? if so, then you are still being silly, I fear -- if you can't see where or why or how, then I just leave you to it] but by my recollection of people's reactions in every day intercourse. People like decorators who came to paint the house, people one would get into chat with on trains ... so many such: wish I had a pound for everyone I met at the time who said, "Don't care what anyone says, I think she's great." There was an atmosphere of cheerfulness and patriotic pride around which I do not recall having sensed quite like that before or since. The Falklands had much to do with it; she stood her ground, committed us, and won; and before anyone starts going on about the bloody Belgrano, just remember the proverb about what he who fights & runs away does. I appreciate that things will have been different in other parts of the country; but even that didn't prevent her repeated re-election, and her having served the longest continuous time in office since I can't recall when: certainly not in the lifetime of anyone I knew; did it? Hubris overcame her eventually; everyone can get over-confident & make a misjudgment -- in her case, as I say, over the Poll Tax. But, until then... ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 08 Jan 14 - 04:56 AM m the g m,how can she be popular when more people voted against her than for her, yes and that goes for every other post war prime minister, regardless of party, there is nothing silly about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim McLean Date: 08 Jan 14 - 04:44 AM Even then, Allan, the Scottish vote didn't change the finally elected Westminster government. In 1950, Labour had a majority of 5 and without the Scottish vote there would still have been a Labour government with a majority of 2: in 1951, Conservative majority of 17, without Scotland majority of 16: 1955, Coservative majority 60, without Scotland majority 61: 1959, Coservative majority 100, without Scotland it would have been 109 so in effect since 1945, actually, Scottish MPs have never turned what would have been a Conservative government into a Labour one or vice versa. In 1964 and in 1974 Scottish MPs have given Labour a majority they wouldn't have had from England/Wales/NI alone but it wouldn't have changed the elected government as Labour was the largest party and it would have gone to a hung parliament. In the 2010 election Scotland sent 41 Labour MPs, out of 59, but we still got a Conservative led government, so to sum up, the Scottish vote, whether overwhelmingly Conservative or Labour makes no difference to the government in Westminster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:42 AM Funnily enough In Scotland for General Elections there has only ever been one party manage to obtain over 50% of the vote - and that was the Conservatives in the 1950s. Kind of dispels the myth that little more than a generation or so later Scotland was somehow programmed to be anti-Conservative. It maybe is kind of that way now but that is because of the policies of the Thatcher-Major gvts. They weren't so unpopular because they were Tories it was more the Tories became so unpopular because of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 08 Jan 14 - 02:32 AM Didn't Blair at one point have approval ratings higher than any other post war PM had? In the end his ratings dropped to one of the most unpopular PMs ever but still not as low as Thatcher's ratings dropped to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 01:42 AM Though I should, I suppose, add for fairness that, as well as being IMO the most popular PM in my recollection, she was also simultaneously the most hated by other sections of the populace. Has any ever polarised opinion quite so sharply, I wonder? -- as demonstrated by the ∞-ty of threads about her, on this and pretty well every other forum, which, as we see right here, are still ongoing well over 20 years after she left office. Her impact, however one might view her personality, deeds, & achievements, is surely undeniable. ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:54 AM I should, of course, have written Poll Tax rather than Council Tax. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 08 Jan 14 - 12:43 AM Oh, come on, Dick. We have had innumerable discussions over the years on these threads about how our constituency-based electoral system never produces a statistical majority government ~~ but literally never: I don't think a single instance was ever produced in argument, the nearest being the post WWii Labour lot which that fool Cripps ruined and brought down in short order at the next-but-one election, which had a nearly 50% showing in overall election votes cast nationwide. That just happens to be how our electoral system works, and any referendum, or other sort of attempt to replace it with PR or whatever, has failed every time. I could produce statistics similar to yours above to prove that "one can conclude from that that more people voted for the other 2 parties than [his] party,that is how the electoral system divides and rules, it shows that more people did not want [insert name of any British PM] as prime minister than actually wanted [him]". I know this. You know this, for all your saying. You asked for facts. I gave you facts. I appreciate they were facts uncongenial to those on your side of the political spectrum; but facts they are nevertheless. So just accept them as such, please; and stop being so silly. You are making a fool of yourself in your endeavours to prove the unprovable. The main FACT, little as you may like it, is that, until she cocked up over the Council Tax, Margaret Thatcher was probably the most popular PM overall in British history, and her election record demonstrates it. Sorry if this meets with the disapproval of the great and distinguished Richard Miles. But such, as any unbiased observer must observe, are the FACTS. BTW, re ollaimh's post above - Those like Richard who use 'bitch' of her, which assonates so well with 'Thatcher', always seem to me to adopt a tone of "hur-hur slurp" as they do so that always gives me the impression that they are typing it one-handed: it really does seem to do it for them in the oddest fashion! Now please be quiet, Dick, before you make yourself look even sillier. Best wishes ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 07 Jan 14 - 07:21 PM but Michael How many people voted for her party in each election after as you put it "she got the better of him", and how many voted for the other 2 parties, was her election due to her overall popularity, or was it the nature of the electoral system, example in the 1983 election, Popular vote conservatives 13,012,316 labour 8,456,934 sdp alliance liberals 7,780,949 more people voted for the other two main parties than the conservatives. same thing in 1987 election here conservatives 13,760,935 – 0.2 Labour 633 229 26 6 + 20 35.2 10,029,270 + 3.2 SDP–Liberal Alliance 633 22 5 6 – 7,341,65 one can conclude from that that more people voted for the other 2 parties than her party,that is how the electoral system divides and rules, it shows that more people did not want her as prime minister that actually wanted her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:06 PM Why, the nation elected her twice more after she had got the better of him, as I have already remarked in that particular exchange with Mr You-Know-Who (6 Jan 0926 am). What on earth are you doing, raking up that particular exchange at this time of day, Dick? We seem to me to have progressed far beyond that. Being a bit dozy [& a bit obsessive] aren't you? What's rocking your boat then, for crying out loud -- or, to mix the metaphor a bit, getting your knickers in such a twist? 'Booby'? 'Bounder'? Not like you to turn abusive & immoderate when you have been misunderstood for not expressing yourself clearly. Honestly, Dick: take a look at yourself. Cool it for crying out loud, before you do yourself an injury, or say something you'll regret. Best ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:06 PM MGM,are you a bigger booby than you are a bounder, I am refrring to Facts to illustrate that thatcher was more popular than scargill, with whom?, please be more specific, obviously Margaret was more popular with her family than Scargill was. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 07 Jan 14 - 10:11 AM Nigel. I'm not making any excuses for Blair, but I recall that he told Parliament that Intelligence had led him to believe there were WMDs in Iraq. Hence he could claim that he had not knowingly misled anyone. Yes, I know, the buck stops here......... But what defence could Thatcher have pulled out of the hat over the mines? "Nobody told me the real figure was 75 pits. I thought we were only going to close 20." Eh come on. Are you in charge of this country or what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 14 - 09:02 AM ie Happy -- not Hippy: tho that too if you like... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 14 - 09:00 AM Facts about what, Dick? Sorry, but the only fact I have for you is that I have not the remotest idea what you are on about. Hppy New Year ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:53 AM m gm FACTS PLEASE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:51 AM What I never understood about Blair was his conversion to Catholicism. How could someone who apparently believed his immortal soul and judgement day tell such a bloodstained horrible lie. All my friends said I was a fool to believe him. I guess I was one of the ones with half a brain. some of the reason I did believe him though was the vile dishonesty of the Thatcher years. It wasn't just the mines and manufacturing industry - it was education, the beggars on the street, the hard drugs industry taking a hold, the national curriculum, the inflammatory rhetoric on Northern Ireland, fund holding GP's and all the other right wing bullshit she festooned around our country - all the time with this phoney patriotism droning on in the background. I couldn't see an alternative to Blair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 07 Jan 14 - 08:25 AM lying to Parliament is a very serious business. Serious enough to have shaken the entire government out of office. That doesn't seem to have worked for Blair, who told parliament that he had convincing proof of weapons of mass destruction! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:46 AM Stilly River Sage. Thanks for the link. I shall order a copy directly I've posted this. A though crossed my mind last night, and it should have crossed long before. Namely that if Thatcher and co lied to the country about the extent of proposed closures, they must also have lied to Parliament. As everyone who lives in this country knows, lying to Parliament is a very serious business. Serious enough to have shaken the entire government out of office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Richard Bridge Date: 07 Jan 14 - 05:32 AM The bitch Thatcher lied and lied again. Her right wing cronies in the press repeated the lies. They, somewhat like another regime a little before in another land, fooled the public. One at least of her cronies (now on the run from reparation, in another land, lying to the courts) was involved in a calculated gerrymander for electoral advantage. Maybe now that some of the truth is coming out, some of the forces of oppression who conspired at Orgreave to cause the innocent to be convicted will also get their belated desserts. It is also interesting to see that the slur that we have been fed for so many years, namely that Scargill's battle was hopeless, was also a lie and that the bitches pussies in the cabinet were indeed very close to having to impose a 3 day week - like the one that eventually brought down Heath. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim McLean Date: 07 Jan 14 - 04:21 AM Thank you, MtheGM . Allan, yes it was George Younger, proving that Scottish Secretaries, than and now, are Westminster's men in Scotland, not Scotland's men in Westminster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 07 Jan 14 - 03:10 AM "I could not find any mention of this in the English press/media and wonder if their silence was for the same reason." What got me was that the then Scottish secretary (was it George Younger?) went along with the idea of hiding cuts from the Scottish people only objecting to how much was involved. Not because he objected to more being cut from the budget but because he gave a maximum figure which he felt could be cut without the other parties or the electorate detecting it. It then went to an argument because the gvt decided the amount should be much more than he recommended could be hidden. Talk about being underhanded and working against your own country! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 07 Jan 14 - 02:21 AM Next morning. Yes, perhaps, looking back by the clear light of day, I did allow myself to get a bit hyperbolically annoyed. No, Jim, it wasn't drink or medication ~~ I have drunk no alcohol whatever for 12 years and take no pills or medicines. It was just that Mr McCormick & I are allergic to one another. Years ago, I objected to his having OPd a thread on the royal wedding with the statement that the very thought of it made him want to vomit; he took exception to my expressing the view that he was deficient in manners for saying so; and we have been unable to abide one another since. Whatever I post, however vanilla, he comes back with IMO an over-truculent overreaction (see eg his response to my first post above); I like a fool rise to the provocation; and Way O and away we go... I hereby undertake to bring this sequence to a complete standstill by making a belated new year resolution to read no post with his name atop. I have no prescriptive rights over him, of course; but would just suggest he might be well advised to adopt a similar policy with regard to mine. New Year Greetings to all ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 06 Jan 14 - 08:28 PM God I love mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim McLean Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:04 PM MtheGM, we've had wee spats int the past but these recent exchanges with Fred McCormick look as if you've really lost the plot. Alcohol, pills, medication? Just lie down in a darkened room and take deep breaths. Address the real issues of Thatcher's lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:02 PM as you appear to be unable to do so I will quote to you hard times again'You are extremely deficient in your facts. Your acquaintance with figures is very limited. You are altogether backward, and below the mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:58 PM MTHEGM, to paraphrase Gradgrind, Now what i want is facts, so please stop giving opinion, without backing up your statement with proof. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Stilly River Sage Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM Seumas Milne - The Enemy Within: Thatcher's Secret War Against the Miners A Google Book search - you can order it any number of ways as an out of print book or find in a library. Bookfinder.com SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 14 - 03:45 PM michael grosvenor myer saidMy first contribution to this thread was a perfectly valid point about Thatcher's having received more support than Scargill. please provide proof or stats to back up this statement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Libra Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:47 PM He has already. Look back 3. Seems to be you who wont let go now |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:22 PM Lynn and Peter K. Like I said, ignore him, just as you would an attention seeking brat. He's bound to go away eventually. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:17 PM well that has straightened that one out, e were getting into dire straits there we could have been expecting why worry next Baby I see this world has made you sad Some people can be bad The things they do, the thing they say But baby I'll wipe away those bitter tears I'll chase away those restless jears That turn your blue skies into grey Why worry, there should be laughter after pain There should be sunshine after rain There things has always been the some So why worry now Baby when I'm down I turn to you And you make sense of what I do I know it isn't hard to say Bat baby just when this world seems mean Our love comes shining red and gold and cold And all the rest is by the way Why worry, there should be laughter after pain There should be sunshine after rain There things has always been the some So why worry now |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 02:12 PM A reminder, LynnH: My first contribution to this thread was a perfectly valid point about Thatcher's having received more support than Scargill: to which the charming Mr McCormick saw fit, with no further provocation, to respond "You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM" I take it you know the French proverb about the "animal très méchant..."? Cet animal est tres méchant; Quand on l'attaque il se défend. (This animal is very malicious; when attacked it defends itself.) However, I have done with responding to McC, having reached the point, so well summarised by the incomparable Jane Austen, of regarding him as too stupid to "deserve the compliment of rational opposition". Thank you for your comment nevertheless: it is as well to be warned when one might jut be going a bit OTT. Regards ~Michael~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:27 PM As far as MtheGM is concerned, could we please just accept that it's a difficult situation? Constantly goading him is not going to help. But he would lend his pedantry a bit more credibility by recognising that the English language is constantly evolving and there is no universal standard or authority governing English spelling. Shakespeare (AKA Shakspear, etc) and those who helped bring his work to the printed page sometimes spelt a word in different ways within a single play. GBS did not demean his writing one iota, nor cause any confusion of meanings, with his frequent departures from some widely recognised norms. Straightjacket. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Eliza Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:25 PM There is an excellent and very readable book by Catherine Paton Black called 'At The Coalface'. It's her autobiography of the Miners' Strike years, and an account of her husband's struggles to find work in Lanarkshire as a miner. He moved to Nottinghamshire and got a job underground at Bevercotes mine. When the whole pit went on strike (apart from a few 'scabs') she turned the pit canteen into a huge soup kitchen, and stridently supported the strikers facing police brutality. The Strike divided families and caused terrible hardship and suffering. From my viewpoint, the life of a miner was terrible anyway. She gives some graphic and illuminating accounts of the conditions underground, dreadful accidents and grievous health problems of the men. Her whole life, and that of her husband, was one of backbreaking work, poverty, danger and despair. I was quite relieved when he found work above ground eventually, but his health was shot to pieces. If one reads this book, one has an insight into the political situation during those terrible times, and some inside views of Thatcher, the Police and the miners. 'At The Coalface' by Catherine Paton Black (publisher Headline) ISBN -10 0755363256 ISBN-13 978-0755363254 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 06 Jan 14 - 01:24 PM @MtheGM.......isn't it about time you grew up and stopped throwing little temper tantrums? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: selby Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM I worked in a Power Station and we had a picket on the gate when the local bobbies where on duty they looked after each other. The met arrived, took over our mess room and treat us, the power station workers like plebs I have no repeat for the met what so ever. Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:58 PM And have you noticed that F McC seems to have a bondage kink, as well as a tendency to violence? Just saying... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:52 PM MI5were involved in the 1973 miners strike as well Gormley was reporting back to them on union meetings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:49 PM ... & learn to spell, ignoramus. Told you once -- 'strait', as in narrow bit of sea &c, means narrow or restricted; as in 'straitened circumstances', meaning a lack of money. So a restraining jacket is a 'strait' one; it isn't 'straight' in any sense, you pigheaded booby. Just think, for once. And learn something without being so self-satisfied obstinate in your ignorance. Even the great McCormick doesn't know it all, you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:42 PM Ah diddums, Fweddie dear. Getting twoss, are we? Aaaaahhhhh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:20 PM Like I said. an urgent candidate for the straightjacket. Just ignore the pillock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:17 PM GSS. Our British police are notorious for removing their ID under such circumstances. I don't know why because they can't possibly have anything to hide can they? After all, nobody at headquarters seems to mind, and it's dead handy when it comes to killing the odd innocent newspaper seller. So the fact that some of these geezers had no ID badges doesn't mean they were soldiers. It just unfortunately means they had no ID badges. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:15 PM Oh dear!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:11 PM McCormick's a liar He knows he's a liar Oh how dire His pants are on fire. Hope he doesn't burn his bollox too severely. Peekaboo, Freddie poppet! ☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠☺☠ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 12:08 PM Ok. I've got it. The book is by Seumas Milne and is called The Enemy Within: Thatcher's Secret War Against the Miners, and it seems to be a pretty damning critique of the roles played by MI5, the Special Branch etc. Moreover, SM is a highly respected journalist which means that his conclusions are probably well substantiated. Unfortunately, my local library doesn't keep a copy (shock, horror. Well I never!) and I don't feel I can justify buying any more books at the moment, especially having withstood the tides of Christmas. But if anybody can tell me what it says in relation to the allegation about soldiers in police uniforms, I'd be glad to know. BTW., my local library may not carry SM's book, but they do carry a surprisingly large selection of books on or about or by her, including her autobiography. They also stock a nice bit of entertaining late night reading by some Austrian or other called Adolf Hitler. let me see now. Ah yes, that was the name of it, Mein Kampf. Something about kampfing I think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM Fred, my late father County Councillor George Miles put up about a dozen kent miners in his house during the strike, I remember clearly the talk that a lot of the policemen did not have identification numbers, my father verified this,sorry cant help with the name of the book. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:39 AM Keith A of Hartford. MtheGM's latest posting is further proof if further proof were needed, that he has fallen completely out of his tree. As I recall it, MtheGM accused me of all people of being anti-semitic. Yes that's right. The very person who has been abused, spat at and threatened with physical violence by the anti-semitic far right. My retaliation to MtheGM was that, if we ever met I would give him an earful (or some such) that he wouldn't forget in a hurry. I meant, and MtheGM knows that I meant, that I'd shout his bloody ears off. I did not mean that I would resort to violence. In point of fact though, I feel that recourse to violence would have been fully justified, following an insult like that. Now, can we ignore the ridiculous Michael Grosvenor-Myer and his unceasing attempts to score points against anyone he dislikes and get back to the point of this thread. IE., the lies which Thatcher told over the pit closures and doubtless on many other subjects. BTW., Regarding the state of emergency which Thatcher was ready to declare, and which would have involved the use of troops. There is a persistent story, I'm tempted to call it an urban legend, that some of the police on the picket lines were actually soldiers in police uniform. I've always been inclined to dismiss this as unsubstantiated rumouring, on the grounds that even Thatcher couldn't have withstood the outcry if that one had got out. However, I was talking to someone who claims it has been reliably documented in a book about the miners' strike. Does anybody know the name of the book, or can furnish further information? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:15 AM At least learn to spell, you pathetic truculent abusive little ignoramus McCormick. It's 'straitjacket' not 'straightjacket'. Threatened any more old people with violence lately, have you? And then denied it, you lying little swine? Hope it keeps fine for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Jan 14 - 11:04 AM "I did not have the option of choosing which side to believe." A matter of recorded history Nigel, and plenty of examples to back up that history - in Scotland, Lancashire and anywhere else working people defied establishment and employers. These are not obscure incidents plucked out of ancient history - they are a matter of publicly accessible record, via press and trades union archives - should anybody be interested enough to access them. In the first decade of the 20th century you had the somewhat farcical situation of the Liverpool City Police Force coming out on strike and being whipped into line by those constables who declined to take industrial action - still a subject of much hilarity to those aware of the City's history. Fortunately, today's technology records, preserves and makes accessible the behaviour of State employees who are ruthlessly used by governments. One of the most vivid images of the miners strike for me is of a miner's wife about to have her head laid open by the baton of a mounted policeman at Orgreave - god bless democracy in action!! I'm often amused by the silence that descends when the romance between Thatcher and Pinochet is mentioned, - justified, misinterpreted, invented or simply animal attraction - we really do need to know??? I believe Thatcher was the nearest Britain every got to electing a fascist head of state. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:52 AM I think he was telling you that it was not a secret after it happened. Why does that make him "a prime candidate for" mental health treatment? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:45 AM As I've said before, you can ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM. The above is proof, if any were needed, that he is a prime candidate for the funny farm and the straightjacket. A bit like his mentor in fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:38 AM Two of those elections were after that, McCormick, you unutterable booby. Why no just shut up your inenarrably stupid face before you make an even bigger fool of yourself than before? As if, Fat Gob!.... You stay happy, now, you hear! ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 10:09 AM You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM and his comments about "the nation" and its preferences. The closing of 75 mines was a dirty little well kept secret which never made its way out of cabinet, never mind onto the pages of the conservative manifesto. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:55 AM Jim Carroll: "Clearly a 'balanced' report then." Beats Hitler-supporting Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail (which took the opposite view) hands down, doncha think Nigel - whose word would you take? In the matter being discussed, the film, and the comments of miners' families, only one side was being put. I did not have the option of choosing which side to believe. That is what I meant by a lack of balanced reporting. I will accept that the idea of 'balanced reporting' may be an alien concept to some. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM Still, at least you didn't offer to punch me out this time. Things are improving to some extent, it would appear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:26 AM the vapid rantings of MTHEGM and his comments about "the nation" and its preferences. I don't recall the nation being offered the chance to express any preference either way. .,,. Oh, don't you, Fred? Memory so short that you have forgotten she was the only leader to win three [count them! 3!] elections hand-running thruout C20? If that was not the nation expressing a preference, then how would you define the terms, precisely? 'Vapid' right back 2u, my foolish fellow. Best regards as ever. Have as happy a new year as that ingrained & habitual sour disposition of yours will admit, now --- ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim McLean Date: 06 Jan 14 - 09:15 AM I read about Thatcher's secret plans to cut the Scottish budget which was reported in all the Scottish papers. She was frightened in case it gave ammunition to the Scottish Nationalist Party. I could not find any mention of this in the English press/media and wonder if their silence was for the same reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Jan 14 - 08:13 AM From contemporary accounts; Glasgow strike - 1919 A Veteran Recalls: I had come home wounded from France and (when my wounds healed) was sent back to the Seaforth Highlanders at Cromarty. We had no idea what was going on in Glasgow. But one morning the whole battallion was paraded and all men from Glasgow and district were told to come out to front of the parade. We thought that was us going to be demobbed but instead we were kept in Cromarty while all the rest (around 700 men) were sent to Glasgow to shoot if it were necessary. Also ... Minutes of the War Cabinet Meeting, January 30th 1919 ......... Sir William Robertson continuing said that there were certain disadvantages in employing Scottish troops but on the whole he thought it would be safer to use them than to import English battallions. Evening News - January 31st The soldiers reached Queen St. Station shortly after ten o'clock ............. the long columns of khaki-clad men who belong to the Seaforths, the Gordons and other Highland regiments. Soldiers had been used before against striker - notably in Tonypandy, where Churchill led troops against strikers - two dead were reported, but the Government refused to hold an enquiry. Two striking railway workers were shot dead in Llanelli in 1911 An old and much loved Tory tradition it seems! "Don't know about the 1926 strike so it'd be interesting to hear more." See the film if you can - pm me Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:57 AM Sorry Alan, I misread your earlier post as saying you weren't familiar with the history of the General Strike, rather than that you didn't know about troops being deployed. In any case, the use of English troops to quell Scottish strikers is interesting. A typical case of divide and rule. SFAIK, troops weren't deployed on Merseyside (which is where I'm from) during the GS, but they were on two similar occasions. First of all in 1911, during the Liverpool Transport strike, troops and police injured over 350 people, plus there were a further two shot dead. Again, in 1932, when the MacDonald coalition cut the dole, it led to riots in Birkenhead, which again led to the army being called out. Here's a squib which Ewan MacColl wrote at the time. Forward unemployed, forward unemployed, Led by the NUWM, We fight against the cuts again. From fighting Birkenhead, we've learnt our lesson well. We'lI send the National Government And the means test all to Hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:24 AM The BBC clip below gives a brief descrition of the situation in Glasgow during the 1926 general strike. Thought it interesting that in 1919 (according to Tom Devine in The Scottish Nation) Scottish troops were used to quell the protesters with only Glaswegians confined to barracks. However accroding the clip below in 1926 English troops were deployed to Glasgow and Scottish Regiments were confined to barracks! http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/history/modern_scotland/the_general_strike/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM Can't recommend a book, sadly, because all the stuff I read on the GS has probably been out of print for years. But its importance in terms of working class history cannot be underestimated. I'd suggest you have a hunt and see what's out there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Allan Conn Date: 06 Jan 14 - 07:11 AM Don't know about the 1926 strike so it'd be interesting to hear more. It was though only 7 years after the 1919 strike in Glasgow which saw 12000 troops enter the city with tanks stationed in the Cattle Market and machine guns placed at post-offices and various hotels. So wouldn't be the first time! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM "Scum Thatcher" writes the egregious Carroll with his usual charm and moderation." Difficult to be moderate about an elected prime minister who befriended, supported and held up as an example of democracy a mass murderer who slaughtered thousands of (mainly young) people - though sadly, I'm no longer surprised in your doing so. What was it you once said - "she did some good" - just like Mussolini made the trains run on time? There, but for the grace of democracy might have gone Britain if she hadn't been kicked out on her fascist arseum. "Clearly a 'balanced' report then." Beats Hitler-supporting Lord Rothermere's Daily Mail (which took the opposite view) hands down, doncha think Nigel - whose word would you take? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:16 AM For once I agree with Jim Carroll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Dave Hanson Date: 06 Jan 14 - 06:10 AM Never takes long for the Thatcher apologists to chirp in, conveniently not mentioning that the facts now prove that Arthur Scargill was correct and Thatcher lied to the people of this country. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:50 AM When Peter Mandelson took over as Secretary of State For Northern Ireland, he was approached by Maggie Thatcher. She said, "I've got just one thing to say to you young man. You can't trust the Irish. They're liars, all of them. And don't you forget that." If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. You can of course ignore the vapid rantings of MTHEGM and his comments about "the nation" and its preferences. I don't recall the nation being offered the chance to express any preference either way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: MGM·Lion Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:28 AM "Scum Thatcher" writes the egregious Carroll with his usual charm and moderation. However, turned out that the nation preferred her to Scum Scargill, didn't it? ~M~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 06 Jan 14 - 05:19 AM The industry survived the cuts. 4 years later, the remaining pits were producing as much coal as before at a fraction of the cost. The industry was destroyed later by Hestltine to reduce CO2 by switching to gas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:33 AM Watched a remarkable film entitled 'There is a Happy Land' last night, depicting the events surrounding the 1926 miners strike in Scotland. It showed the army being used to suppress the strike, with the enthusiastic assistance the newly formed British Fascist Party. The events shown where fully verified by interviews with some of the miners' families. "Fully verified by interviews with the miners' families"? Clearly a 'balanced' report then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Jim Carroll Date: 06 Jan 14 - 04:17 AM Watched a remarkable film entitled 'There is a Happy Land' last night, depicting the events surrounding the 1926 miners strike in Scotland. It showed the army being used to suppress the strike, with the enthusiastic assistance the newly formed British Fascist Party. The events shown where fully verified by interviews with some of the miners' families. It's interesting to compare the use of the army against striking miners then and Scum Thatchers proposal (and possibly actual) use of the army against strikers 80-odd years later. The film is a Scottish Theatre Workshop/BBC Scotland co-production - highly recommended, should it happen to gain wider release )some hope!!) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:56 PM Forgot to say... Scroll right down at that link above for relevant documents and other interesting stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:38 PM As Pete Jennings suggested up the thread, it might have helped if the original post had included a reference. Belatedly, then... BBC report. It makes the point that the government was talking about closing 20 pits while at the same time secretly planning to close 75 - but over three years. Yes, there's a descrepancy, but it's not in the Belgrano category of Thatcher lies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Jan 14 - 08:30 PM "Rather small" is true enough. Here's a graph showing what's happened |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 Jan 14 - 08:06 PM It would be interesting to see the material which is being relied upon to support the original premise of this discussion. I'm not saying that it isn't available. But it may be being misconstrued. On what basis is 'Big Al Whittle' stating that "Thatcher fibbed about coal mines"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Ian Hendrie Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:51 PM I'm sure the original poster had tongue in cheek when choosing their words for the thread title but one definition of a fib is 'an insignificant or childish lie'. The lies told by the then government were far from insignificant and as to being childish, well, I think not. Except from the childish perspective of 'I can do what I like' and 'I don't know or don't care what the consequences are' and uncaring/unthinking cruelty to others. I'll stop at that; I can feel my blood pressure rising! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: John J Date: 05 Jan 14 - 12:16 PM I am shocked. JJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 05 Jan 14 - 11:14 AM Leadfingers said it perfectly. Regarding the 70-pits controversy, I don't understand the fuss, and didn't at the time. The plan (as now confirmed) was to close 70 pits over a three-year span at a time when (as a matter of fact) pits were already being closed at a rate of 20 a year. Living three miles from a large and working deep mine, I should just correct McG to say that there IS a coal industry in Britain; it's just rather small. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Stu Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:54 AM I mean, she was happy to put 2/3 or Welsh miners out of work at a stroke. What a bleedin' charmer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: selby Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:50 AM Politicians lying who would have thought it. Is it not the first course they go on when selected Keith |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,allan conn Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:44 AM Ebbie the miner's leader said that there were secret gvt plans to close 70 mines and put tens of thousands of miners out of work. Government spokesmen at the time denounced him as a liar. It turns out though that he in fact was completely correct. The same released gvt papers show that the same thatcher gvt was putting pressure on the then Scottish secretary and looking for ways to cut Scottish spending without informing the electorate |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Jan 14 - 10:36 AM It was tongue in cheek. But you knew that, of course! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST,Jon Heslop Date: 05 Jan 14 - 09:56 AM Backwoodsman, to answer your question, "No". Q: How can you tell when a politician's telling lies? A: Their lips move. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 Jan 14 - 04:02 AM I'm astonished that anyone could have the temerity to suggest that any British politician, let alone the most universally admired and revered Prime Minister the nation ever had the good fortune to have, would ever speak anything other than the absolute, unvarnished truth! It's inconceivable, surely? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Jan 14 - 09:32 PM Basically she denounced as wicked liars those who claimed that there were government plans for massive closures of coalmines. Government papers now released because of a rule that after 30 years that had to be have demonstrated beyond any question that such plans had been prepared, and this was the settled ambition of the government. And that was precisely what happened after the strike by the miners had been defeated. There is now no coalmining industry in Britain. True enough Tony Blair lied in his turn. Essentially he was a Thatcherite in this as in most other things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Leadfingers Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:47 PM The Blessed Margaret blamed the National Union of Mineworkers for screwing Ted Heath in 1972 and wanted revenge . Sadly , the NUM was led by Arthur Scargill who was just as Pig Headed as Maggie . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:59 PM Or rather, coal mines? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Ebbie Date: 04 Jan 14 - 05:58 PM For the benefit of one lonely USAians, what did Madame Thatch have to say about coal? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: GUEST Date: 04 Jan 14 - 02:29 PM As a friend of mine says. The last honourable person to enter parliament was Guy Fawkes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Eric the Viking Date: 04 Jan 14 - 02:18 PM What Saint Maggie...lying through her teeth? Or trying to cut millions from Scotland without being found out? What a lying deceitful devious bitch...But to qualify that, not much worse than Bliar.(And of course the greedy, self centred politicians that have formed successive governments.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Stu Date: 04 Jan 14 - 11:48 AM Liars? Unbelievable. Not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Dave Hanson Date: 04 Jan 14 - 11:46 AM Release of government documents under the 30 year rule. JHWs verse is a paraphrase from the song ' Close The Coalhouse Door ' by Alex Glasgow. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Pete Jennings Date: 04 Jan 14 - 10:31 AM Source? Reference? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: JHW Date: 04 Jan 14 - 09:49 AM Geordie's standing at the dole While Mrs Thatcher like a fool Complains about the price of coal |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Brian Peters Date: 04 Jan 14 - 07:50 AM A bit like Blair and Iraq - anyone with half a brain knew it was lies all along. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: banjoman Date: 04 Jan 14 - 07:23 AM Are you really surprised? |
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Subject: BS: Thatcher fibbed about coal mines! From: Big Al Whittle Date: 04 Jan 14 - 06:31 AM How could she? When we all placed all our trust in her? |
