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Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!

DigiTrad:
SEEDS OF LOVE


Related threads:
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finding a manuscript written by C Sharp (7)
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Noreen 15 Jan 14 - 08:08 PM
Bert 15 Jan 14 - 08:12 PM
Noreen 15 Jan 14 - 08:26 PM
Bert 15 Jan 14 - 08:35 PM
Lighter 16 Jan 14 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jan 14 - 10:04 AM
GUEST 16 Jan 14 - 10:57 AM
Steve Gardham 16 Jan 14 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Jan 14 - 11:36 AM
Noreen 16 Jan 14 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Ed 16 Jan 14 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,PeterC 16 Jan 14 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Ed 16 Jan 14 - 04:51 PM
GUEST,Guest, MTB 16 Jan 14 - 06:18 PM
Doug Chadwick 17 Jan 14 - 03:23 AM
Brian Peters 17 Jan 14 - 03:36 AM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Jan 14 - 12:31 PM
GUEST 17 Jan 14 - 06:57 PM
Ross Campbell 17 Jan 14 - 08:24 PM
Brian Peters 18 Jan 14 - 04:02 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jan 14 - 04:25 AM
Mitch the Bass 18 Jan 14 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 18 Jan 14 - 02:17 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 14 - 02:28 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 14 - 03:19 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM
Noreen 18 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 14 - 06:34 PM
GUEST 18 Jan 14 - 09:32 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jan 14 - 04:55 AM
selby 19 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Peter 19 Jan 14 - 06:30 AM
GUEST 19 Jan 14 - 06:56 AM
Brian Peters 19 Jan 14 - 10:08 AM
selby 19 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM
Bert 19 Jan 14 - 01:23 PM
Noreen 20 Jan 14 - 03:22 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Jan 14 - 03:48 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Jan 14 - 04:05 PM
Bert 20 Jan 14 - 05:40 PM
maeve 20 Jan 14 - 06:01 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jan 14 - 03:21 AM
GUEST,John from Kemsing 21 Jan 14 - 07:01 AM
Bert 21 Jan 14 - 02:23 PM
Noreen 21 Jan 14 - 05:30 PM
Bert 21 Jan 14 - 08:30 PM
Noreen 21 Jan 14 - 11:38 PM
Bert 22 Jan 14 - 02:15 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 14 - 03:46 AM
selby 22 Jan 14 - 04:05 AM
Bert 22 Jan 14 - 04:13 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 14 - 04:30 AM
GUEST 22 Jan 14 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,matt milton 22 Jan 14 - 07:42 AM
Bert 22 Jan 14 - 08:38 AM
Vic Smith 22 Jan 14 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 14 - 09:13 AM
Brian Peters 22 Jan 14 - 09:58 AM
Vic Smith 22 Jan 14 - 10:30 AM
Bert 22 Jan 14 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 14 - 02:43 PM
maeve 22 Jan 14 - 03:13 PM
GUEST 22 Jan 14 - 03:19 PM
Bert 22 Jan 14 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Brian Peters 22 Jan 14 - 07:41 PM
Bert 22 Jan 14 - 11:13 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 14 - 05:33 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM
Bert 23 Jan 14 - 10:37 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 14 - 11:36 AM
Bert 23 Jan 14 - 11:47 AM
Brian Peters 23 Jan 14 - 01:26 PM
Bert 23 Jan 14 - 03:10 PM
Bert 23 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM
Steve Gardham 23 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM
maeve 23 Jan 14 - 08:02 PM
Bert 23 Jan 14 - 08:31 PM
Bert 23 Jan 14 - 08:36 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 14 - 03:39 AM
Bert 24 Jan 14 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM
C Stuart Cook 24 Jan 14 - 07:28 AM
Vic Smith 24 Jan 14 - 07:52 AM
Bert 24 Jan 14 - 01:02 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 14 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Ed 24 Jan 14 - 01:36 PM
Bert 24 Jan 14 - 03:24 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 14 - 03:35 PM
maeve 24 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM
Bert 24 Jan 14 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,leeneia 25 Jan 14 - 09:07 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 14 - 03:42 AM
maeve 27 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Phil at work 27 Jan 14 - 10:05 AM
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Subject: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:08 PM

This looks fun, they're asking for contributions:

Radio 2 listeners can contribute their own recordings to a 21st century folk collection of our own

We have chosen three songs and three tunes from Sharp's famous collection. You can download sheet music and lyrics for each song and tune:
    The Seeds Of Love
    Claudy Banks            
    Barbara Allen         
    Bean Setting            
    Country Gardens      
    Laudnum Bunches   


Then upload to YouTube etc and send in a link.

I like inclusivity :)


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:12 PM

Hmmm... now why would they ask for recordings of those songs if they are looking for a 21st century collection?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:26 PM

?
The point is that it'll be 21st century versions of the songs and tunes that Cecil Sharp collected.

These are traditional songs and tunes, popular in the early 20th century and still in current circulation in traditional circles.

There are plenty of other opportunities for newly written 21st century music to be recorded and collected, Bert, but this isn't one of them- it's purpose is made perfectly clear on the page I've linked to.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 15 Jan 14 - 08:35 PM

OK., OK., you're right, but it is a personal vendetta of mine. Why call it 21st century when they want new recordings of old songs?

For me it is more important that 20th. and 21st. century songs should not be lost, than it is to rehash songs from that past. But I guess that should be a different thread.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 09:10 AM

> old songs.

Won't they let us rewrite the lyrics to our heart's content?

Barbara Allen rappin' on Mars would be a 21st century song. IMO.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:04 AM

Thanks, Noreen. I will be interesting to see what the BBC receives in response to their invitation.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 10:57 AM

Priceless everyone gets the opportunity to contribute to a project and Mudcatters immediately knock it!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:03 AM

I also heard about this on Folk on 2 on Wed night. The examples they played were Barbara Allen by Jim Moray and Seeds of Love by Bella Hardy, both very personalised updated arrangements/rewrites, so your BA rappin on Mars would fit perfectly, Jon. I look forward to hearing it.

How about starting our own Mudcat competition to update these 3 songs, just for fun of course.

Bert, what a silly bee you have in your bonnet!!!

Some of us are doing our best to preserve those songs that deserve to be preserved from any century. Mudcat is also trying its damnedest to that as well.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 11:36 AM

I would feel better about that BBC site if it had some dates on it. I know it says 2014 at the bottom, but it would be nice to be assured that the offer is still open. It would also be good to know if there is any deadline for submission.

I've been looking over the tunes, and I the one I like best is 'Bean Setting.' However, it seems to have some notes missing, 'cause I doubt if anybody ever wrote a folk dance that is 11.25 measures long.

I hope some Mudcatters submit something. Why don't I submit? The wife of one of our members is in intensive care, and she's probably not going to survive. Our hearts are too heavy to dally with BBC right now.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 01:52 PM

leeneia, this has only just been announced (as Steve Gardham says above) and it is connected with the fact that Cecil Sharp will be the first person to be inducted into a "Hall of Fame" at this year's BBC Radio 2 Folk Awards, on 19 Feb 2014 at the Royal Albert Hall.

The page I linked to says:
In the lead-up to this year's Folk Awards we're featuring a selection of your own performances of music from Cecil's collection here on the the Radio 2 website.

so I imagine the deadline for submission will be some time before 19 Feb.

:)


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 02:54 PM

Thank you for that, Noreen. Looks good.

I shall ignore Bert's idiocy and Leeneia's misplaced pedantry and simply enjoy...


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:13 PM

Should we be encouraging the BBC Folk Awards people? It/They are not much do with folk music as we know it?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 04:51 PM

Dear PeterC,

Yawn, yawn, fucking yawn...


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,Guest, MTB
Date: 16 Jan 14 - 06:18 PM

"I've been looking over the tunes, and I the one I like best is 'Bean Setting.' However, it seems to have some notes missing, 'cause I doubt if anybody ever wrote a folk dance that is 11.25 measures long."

It fits the morris dance Bean Setting perfectly.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:23 AM

I gave at the office.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 03:36 AM

"The examples they played were Barbara Allen by Jim Moray and Seeds of Love by Bella Hardy, both very personalised updated arrangements/rewrites"

Jim's 'Barbara Allen' certainly sounded like an updated rewrite, but Bella's 'Seeds of Love', from our Liberty to Choose project, is straight out of The New Penguin Book of English Folk Songs. Collected by Clive Carey in Sussex and sounding very different from the well-known Cecil Sharp version, it was an odd choice to illustrate this initiative, but it was well worth it to have Bella's brilliant performance given airplay.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 12:31 PM

If anybody wants to submit a recording of 'Bean Setting,' I suggest going to the third measure from the end and playing the set of notes a-g-f twice rather than once. (This will nicely duplicate the phrase before.) Then change the dotted eighth note in the last measure to a dotted quarter. Doing these two things will produce a 6/8 section eight bars long, which is the usual thing.

When I first opened 'Bean Setting,' I tried to make a MIDI of it, and I found I simply couldn't play it as written. The music seemed to have a crazy hop in it, and my fingers simply refused to do it.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 06:57 PM

What's going on is that CSH having contributed to the Southbank Tapping the Roots last February, the emphasis is on where we go from here: the CSH Choir sang some of Sally Davis' arrangements immediately after the Library recordings to show what can be done, as well as Carthy and Swarb and Flood and Mellon doing free floor slots!
In passing, Pete and Andy are doing another experimental lab using innovative organs (!) at the RFH the weekend of 21-23 March - free floor performance afterwards, I think.

Do you need to stop in the core CS corpus? I don't think so, the idea is to add a record of where we are now: the essence is the English Song element of EFDSS, so it shouldn't be Country & Western, or overly guitar, or, well, anything which isn't fairly mainstream folk - in the sense that broadside ballads made it into the repertoire, so it might be argued that an acoustic version of I Don't Like Mondays could be in the tradition. It's certainly entered the corpus of historical documentation. Of course, CSH will be the determinant.

And then again, there's still a wealth of songs in the archive which are not in the general repertoire. Not to mention the old Ballads, and...


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 17 Jan 14 - 08:24 PM

Re "Bean Setting" - sometimes it's best to refer to people who know what they're doing.

Ilmingon Morris perform "Bean Setting"

Ross


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:02 AM

I'm confused now. The BBC website refers to "songs and tunes that we'd like you to choose from: The Seeds of Love, Claudy Banks, Barbara Allen, Laudanum Bunches, Bean Setting and Country Gardens", and I assumed the idea was to use Sharp's versions.

But anonymous 'GUEST' above, who seems to speak with inside knowledge, says:
"Do you need to stop in the core CS corpus? I don't think so... it might be argued that an acoustic version of I Don't Like Mondays could be in the tradition."

I'm not sure who might be arguing that, but it does seem a bit broader than the original concept!


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:25 AM

"I'm not sure who might be arguing that, but it does seem a bit broader than the original concept!"
Couldn't agree more.
Seems pointless to be presenting updates that have nothing to do with, and often directly go against the motives and forms that inspired the songs to be made in the first place.
We've all jigged and jazzed our way through folk songs in the early hours, when we've been half cut - any half-wit can do that.
There are thousand of orchestral renditions of folk songs and tunes Beethoven, Mendelssohn, Bartok....(all recogonised as no longer following folk forms).
I would have thought that it was far more interesting and important to see which ways the songs and melodies have evolved, while maintaining their original function, rather than make such an enterprise a hotch-potch display of all the experimental side-roads and cul-de-sacs that folk has taken up and eventually abandoned down the years (like electric folk - which now sounds as quaintly irrelevant and old fashioned as the crowd of punks that used to hang around Royal Avenue in Chelsea up to a few years ago).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:50 AM

Re: Bean Setting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzor-yT5NB0 is a good rendition of the tune Bean Setting. The link in a post above shows Illmington dancing the Illmington version rather than Headington version which is slightly different.

Mitch


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:17 PM

Jim,
You tread the verge of the Trad-vs-Modern debate which so bedeviled the Jazz world in the 1950s and 60s. Of course, the answer is that it was both, a core Trad repertoire whose stylistic specificity informed the rest.
Much of what is "Cecil Sharp" folk music is fairly closely datable. Only a fistful of tunes date back more than five hundred years, the wealth of it is really from the eighteenth and nineteenth century. So we know what it is and we know what it is not. But we also know that once it did not exist, and we know that there is a wealth of folk music written since the days of Cecil Sharp. That should be preserved. That's all. Equally, there are repertoires which are almost completely missing from the Archive, particularly from Northumbria and the Border.
Part of the heritage of folk is that there is no "authorised version". Indeed, each performer has to make it their own, in how it works with their voice above all else. Sally Davis may do one thing with the CSH Choir, brushing the boundary of classical music, The Albion Band another (or at least once it reforms), Bella Hardy a third. Our understanding of the music has developed as well, coloured by the growth in Historically Informed Performance in the world of Early Music where the folk world had much of its roots. Our instruments have changed, our voices too. This you know.
I should, however, ask you whether it is actually possible to exclude the edge of Classical music from it. Ralph Vaughan Williams above all else adapted pure folk for the classical world of his time, and we call the CSH Library for him. Sabine Baring Gould turned it into hymns (and some remarkably dirty limericks). Cecil Sharp as well, and Holst. They were in part driven by the market need for accessibility, every bit as much as Bunting was, and indeed we see the same in the Broadside Ballads, Gay and Playford. On the same hand, where does electric folk rock stop, therefore? I think we all know the answers, but I want you to think and find your own. This has all coloured where we are now.
What I'm pointing to is that the Rambling Sid Rumpos of the 1960s, the Trad Jazzers of the Folk World, were all very well but there is more. For example, in the Tapping the Roots gig, Sally's arrangement of Outlandish Knight for the CSH Choir cut the Parrot Coda, initially because of limitations in the ability of the Choir to learn it (the complications of the polyphony meant it had to be done in sections - the Choir has only a few semi-professional singers), then because we realised the point at which we stopped (end of term) made more sense in telling the tale than continuing - which drove me back into the Ballad Books to realise that it comes from another Ballad entirely, Young Hunting, and so wasn't really part of the Ballad. It's the same process Historically Informed Performance engages in. Now, as I mentioned, Martin Carthy was also present, and obviously the Choir's version descended from his. So he had every right to hiss across at the end, "What happened to the parrot?", gesticulating with his hand on his own beak. That put him down as "Trad", with every reason, as he's one of the references. But at the same time the Choir was backing the melody with a line of "sea" sounds in the altos and tenors which was straight out of Debussy's La Mer (I don't know if Sally even realised it) which was on the edge of being acapella beatboxing. That performance has already gone into the new Archive, and so I am suggesting that there is space for more than the most Trad retake of the Archive. How far they want to go, I don't know, but if you don't ask, you won't find out. As I understand it, it's to present a faithful record for posterity of where we are now, warts and all. This is why the original Take Six has been expanded into The Full English, combining texts from the British Library (who the Choir also performs for) and other archives. Exactly the same is happening on an international scale in projects like the Scriptorium, collating the world's collection of manuscripts and incunabile, but that hasn't happened in Folk yet, partly because of funding. Those of you who work in Early Music know how the continental festivals like the Salon de Luthiers at Ars (which may not be happening this year, in passing) is reflecting the same internationalisation of Continental Folk.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 02:28 PM

Just to guide you a little further, this is the Southbank's flyer on that concert.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 03:19 PM

Does the CSH choir perform outside of London?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 04:41 PM

They've developed a reciprocal friendship with Oslo's Jammerchor, but haven't travelled in the UK - but probably would if asked for a reasonable gig. Usual performance strength's about 40-50, so they'd have to do a bus load. Contact Sally through Education at CSH.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Noreen
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:06 PM

You know, it would be very nice to know who I am speaking to, anonymous GUEST(s).

You appear to have taken this discussion away from Radio 2's inclusive invitation, mentioned in my original post, to the subject of what the EFDSS regard as worth preserving, and "What's On at Cecil Sharp House".
This feels rather exclusive to me, and I expect to many others outside London.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 06:34 PM

Hence my question about the Choir that seems so far up its own a*** its unbelievable but then CSH the organisation is not for real people


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 14 - 09:32 PM

That is rather a question to address to the CSH Board, and not the Choir, who are as real a bunch as anyone around. The Choir doesn't set the agenda, and so being f'in rude about someone who's giving you a clue is not appreciated.
As it happens, most of the festivals you benefit from would be insolvent if CSH didn't have London rental income from its halls. So get off your high horses and appreciate that an answer's been found to the old problem of getting down to the Library, because most of it's online.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:55 AM

Guest, whoever you are, (point well made Noreen)
It would really be good to know where you are coming from and what you contribute to our understanding and pleasure of folk song.
Whether you like the music and song that Cecil Sharp and his colleagues collected at the beginning of the of the 20th century (your somewhat sneery 'Ramblin' Sid jibe indicates you don't) is immaterial.
The fact is that they made available a body of song that was, and remains unique, and identifiably so to our culture and our history.
I've had half a century of pleasure out of it, as a singer, as audience, and as a researcher, spending thirty years talking to and recording the people who handed it down to us - not only their songs, but just as important, if not more so, their feelings and knowledge of the what they sang - all archived for public access if anyone cares to listen to what they have to say.
Quite honestly, I've become pissed off to the back teeth with being told by jumped-up 'folk police' (not a term I'm happy with, but one I have got used to and adopted in response to ill mannered people who argue the way you do) that I don't know what that music is or what it's importance is.
I also get pissed of when I see the wonderful and generous people we met over the decades written off as 'Ramblin' Sids' - who are you and what gives you the right to behave in the insulting way you do - especially when you hurl your insults from behind a mask of anonymity?
People like you invariably confuse what we know with what we like when you refer to what this music is and how it was played
Of course there is a consensus - it is to be found in virtually every book written on folk song/music/storytelling/lore/dance... and whatever has been recorded and documented on folk arts.
It's to be found in the recordings of source singers and musicians who gave us the stuff in the first place.
The examples they gave us represent a continuity that stretches back centuries, in form and probably in function;#.
Every traditional singer we ever questioned more or less told us that they believed themselves to be storytellers whose stories happened to have tunes attached to them - "it's the words not the music that is important".
They all had some way or other of distinguishing between their music and other forms.
Whether you or anybody involved in the music today is turned on by that is totally immaterial.
Anybody is entitled to do what they want with the songs in any way they wish to perform or listen to it.
You are not entitled to screw up what we know, by what we've read, listened to, and been directly told by the masters of the art because it doesn't turn you on - I'm quite partial to what R,V,W, did to Lovely Joan, or Grainger's visit to Brigg Fair, or Butterworth's sublime Banks of Green Willow.
They all came from 'the folk' but they are liftings from their culture, not a part of it's continuity.
The sad fact is that though many of us have benefited from a lifetime of pleasure given to us by your "Ramblin' Sids', we in fact know extremely little about what generated a centuries-old song-making culture, why the songs lasted as long they did, what the communities who sang them, adapted them to suit their needs, and why they identified with them to the extent that they took ownership of them - why sngs that originated god-knows-where became Norfolk, Aberdeenshire, Lancashire, Connemara, Traveller songs
Why a ballad like Barbara Allen, which pre-dates the Fire of London still resonates in communities around the English speaking world.
I always hope that project like the one being discussed will attempt to tackle some of these questions rather than being turned over to people who don't appreciate the significance of folk songs and, as you've amply shown here, don't particularly like them.         
By the way, you've misrepresented the jazz scene nearly as much as you have folk music.
I was part of that scene in another life, and I witnessed it being driven onto the rocks, not by internecine squabbling, but because it allowed itself to be taken over by the Music Industry, who wrung it dry then screwed it up, threw it away and moved on to something more profitable.
Anyway, mustn't take up any more of your valuable time me dearie o, got some mangles that need pullin' before that damned rain starts up again - oo ar!
Jim Carroll
Who was that masked man?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: selby
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 04:59 AM

Interesting how this is developing Noreen puts up a thread where there is am opportunity to contribute, it gets knocked a guest with Cecil Sharp House (with it,appears inside knowledge) skews it into a project that Cecil Sharp House are involved in with, plus a choir.
Then tells us that,

As it happens, most of the festivals you benefit from would be insolvent if CSH didn't have London rental income from its halls.

I wonder, as a non lover of the London set up (not that it takes much, but you have confirmed my feelings further), what the agenda is here. Does it deserve its own thread?

I agree with Noreen it would be nice for you to Identify yourself.

Finally wouldn't it be better to stick to the spirit of the original post

Keith


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:30 AM

Ah the old anti London agenda! In what other country would people seriously suggest that the capital city was not the appropriate location for a national organisation?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 06:56 AM

Look, calm it. The agenda is what the EFDSS Board decides, and it was settled long since.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 10:08 AM

Going back to the thread topic for a moment, one of the things I like about the BBC's Sharp initiative is that the parameters have been set very narrow, which always makes for a better challenge: "here are three songs and three tunes from Sharp's collection, now let's see what you can do with them". The focus is on interpretation, whether in a straightforward unaccompanied vocal or melodeon instrumental, or something radical, perhaps involving other musical styles (FWIW I love what Solarference do with trad songs and computer samples). I hope plenty of people have a go.

On the subjects raised by our anonymous 'GUEST' (why so coy, still?), I noticed several references to 'The Archive' (with a capital 'A'). Is this the Vaughan Williams Library, the Full English, or what? If it's a new venture then it surely deserves its own thread.

I'm not sure whether the "Rambling Sid Rumpos of the 1960s" referred to the likes of Harry Cox and Sam Larner, or revivalists like MacColl, Killen, Carthy etc. Either way it's a horribly crass comment, coming from someone apparently associated with EFDSS.

Lastly, re 'The Outlandish Knight':
"Sally's arrangement of Outlandish Knight for the CSH Choir cut the Parrot Coda... [because] it comes from another Ballad entirely, Young Hunting, and so wasn't really part of the Ballad"

I fear the parrot's been squawking around 'The Outlandish Knight' since the earliest printed copy in the 17th century, which predates the oldest 'Young Hunting' that I know of. At least one scholar suggested the borrowing was actually the other way round. Either way, the parrot section occurs in the vast majority of 150-plus collected versions of Child 4, so to suggest "it wasn't really part of the ballad" is way off the mark. Check out David Atkinson's essay 'Motivation, Gender and Talking Birds' in 'The English Traditional Ballad'. It's not compulsory to sing all the verses of any ballad, so there's no need to pretend they "don't belong".


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: selby
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 11:50 AM

The point is Peter in my opinion it is a London Institution not a National Institution it is my opinion and I am happy to put my name to it. I went to try and research something at great personal cost I was treated like a yokel by someone in the organisation. I have yet to see the "London" organisation bring anything around the country, although there are a lot of people from outside of London contributing. The organisation appears to me like a sponge we will take everything off you, now go away and stop bothering me. Point in case this thread started out about a Radio 2 initiative and we have been subjected to a lecture by someone in the EFDSS.
Keith


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 19 Jan 14 - 01:23 PM

Steve...Bert, what a silly bee you have in your bonnet!!!...

Yes, I suppose so. What WAS I thinking? I actually had my hopes up that EFDSS were finally viewing folk music as a living, breathing tradition. But of course, that is not what they do; they preserve old songs.

Another thing that they do, for which they receive little credit, is, they rent their hall out to different folk organizations who probably would not be able to afford another venue. I have enjoyed many International Folk Dances (put on by SIFD) at CSH.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Noreen
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:22 PM

I seem to remember we were talking about this:
(though, long live the Parrot, Brian :)



How To Contribute Your Recordings
We'd like to hear recordings of your own performances of the music that Cecil Sharp collected.

You can publish your recordings to YouTube, Soundcloud or Audioboo.
Each of these services will allow you to sign up for a free account and publish your own recordings.

We'll be embedding a selection of the submissions onto the Radio 2 website so please make sure that your submissions are suitable for a family audience.


Once you have published your audio you can share it in one of the following ways:
:: Email folkshow@bbc.co.uk with a link to your recording
:: Tweet a link to your recording using the hashtag #R2CecilSharp


We will be sharing some of our favourite recordings in Radio 2's Cecil Sharp Collection.



Maybe, those who contribute would like to also post here? Thanks :)


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 03:48 PM

Bert,
Once again you are wrong. EFDSS may be renowned for preserving old songs (a very laudable remit), but they also go out of their way to promote song writers, as has happened in The Full English. Brian will give you chapter and verse on this no doubt. As for preserving songs from the 20th/21st century I think modern technology does a damned good job of this without EFDSS having to lift a finger. And just in case you think some of it is falling into obscurity, well , perhaps it deserves to, just like most of what was produced in previous centuries did.

The main threat to decent material that has become unobtainable is the businessmen who have bought up past catalogues, but we're just as much to blame for letting them. I don't think EFDSS can be blamed for this.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 04:05 PM

Keith,
Hi and congrats to your Joe on his new job.

EFDSS coming out into the provinces. Steve Roud of EFDSS recently took a full day's presentation on the history of folk song, using The Full English, to various venues around the country and 2 of them were in Yorkshire! Also Take 6 promoted educational projects around the country employing folk artistes. Pete Coe was one of them. One of their current education officers is Gav Davenport (a very able songwriter, Bert)

Some of the country's top festivals were initiated by EFDSS and at one time the whole country was represented by regional EFDSS organisers. In more recent times this has proven not financially viable.

C#H is very expensive to maintain and most of its income comes from lettings, not always to folk events. Anyone can hire its facilities. Last year I listened to some operatic auditions whilst waiting for the library to open. It might have at one time been perceived as a private club for Playford Dancers, but not so today. Have a look at the events on the website.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 05:40 PM

Steve...but they also go out of their way to promote song writers...

Then I'm glad to be wrong this time.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: maeve
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 06:01 PM

Noreen, thank you. Sounds like fun.

Regards,

Maeve


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 03:21 AM

"but they also go out of their way to promote song writer"
Accepting and promoting song-writers is not a problem and never has been, writers like Graeme Miles, Ed Pickford, Jack Warshaw, MacColl, Seeger, Con 'Fada' O Drisceoll, Adam McNaughton, Enoch Kent, Tim Lyons, Fintan Vallely...... have always been a vital part of the scene I am involved with because of their relationship with the tradition.
Making new songs has always been an essential part of what we do, otherwise we end up wit museums.
The problem comes when the compositions bear not relation to the tradition in any shape or form, but rather, go to other musical forms for their inspiration - not wrong or inferior, just completely different - that's not what audiences for genuine folk song come to listen to.
Another problem is, of course, is that virtually all newly-composed songs come with a small (c), they are all owned and claimed by somebody, which restricts their use somewhat.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 07:01 AM

Noreen, I did one. Whether it is used remains to be seen.

https://soundcloud.com/#john-hills/claudie-banks-2


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 02:23 PM

Yes Jim, copyright is a problem. We all want to protect our songs and if somebody is going to sell them on a CD it is only fair that the usual rates apply.

We have had many discussions about this in the past and some of us like Aina's rules which allow pretty much free use for individual performers and for small production runs, providing credit is given to the writer.

And if EFDSS were to ask for permission, I am sure that many songwriters would be only too pleased to give it. They are certainly welcome to use any of my songs. Only one or two are really folky, most are more country and novelty.

About how many CDs are there in a typical EFDSS production run?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 05:30 PM

Bert, why don't you discuss this on your own thread? It's nothing whatever to do with the subject of this thread.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 08:30 PM

Noreen, I was just replying to Jim; and thread drift is common and acceptable on Mudcat.

Seems that I can't do anything right.

When I stuck to the subject, I got shot down for thinking that it was funny to call some remakes of old songs a 21st Century collection.

If you want to go back there we certainly can.

To call it a 21st century collection, is stupid and it is a lie and it just goes to prove the poor reputation that The EFDSS has for authenticity.

Are you F%^^ing happy now?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Noreen
Date: 21 Jan 14 - 11:38 PM

Bert, you criticised my thread subject and started your own thread about what YOU thought it should be about.

So, I suggested, very nicely, that you carry on your discussion about the EFDSS and 21st century songs, in YOUR thread, and leave my thread for those who ARE interested in its subject.

Particularly if you are going to swear at me.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 02:15 AM

If you post a thread which contains an erroneous statement then you shouldn't be too surprised if you are taken to task for it.

The phrase 'a 21st. century folk collection' is ambiguous to start with. It can either mean collected in the 21st century or collected from the 21st. century. Neither of these meanings relate to the project that you are touting. What they are really doing is 21st. century renditions of music from an old collection, which is fine, so why didn't you say that?

I don't know if the organizers chose their title from a lack of command of The English Language, or whether they deliberately intended to deceive. Either way if you want respect then you should endeavor to make your posts accurate.

If you start a thread with a false statement and then get upset at people who are interested in truthful posts, then that that is called trolling; a practice which is frowned upon here.

Sorry about the swearing, I shouldn't have done that, but I was annoyed. I was trying to answer Jim in a civilized manner, but that wasn't good enough for you. This makes me think more than ever that you were just trolling.

By the way, why didn't you rail at Jim or Steve for starting the thread drift?

Basically, it comes down to this, if you are going to get your feathers ruffled by criticism, then perhaps you should pay a little more attention to the accuracy of the information in the threads that you start.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:46 AM

"Yes Jim, copyright is a problem. "
Not a problem Bert - a defining factor.
Folk songs came from generations - centuries even of communities who made songs to represent their hopes, aspirations, experiences, emotions - reflections of their existence.....
These songs were never, as far as we can see, the property of any particular identified individual which has allowed them to freely pass on to other communities which in their turn, have taken them up and adapt them for their own purposes, and in their turn, pass them on elsewhere - 'then you has - folk-song' as the song nearly said.
The songs you make will never be anybody's but yours - nothing can ever be done with them publicly without your permission.
One of the reasons I believe that folk songs proper are not being made today is that the process that helped create them no longer exists - society as a whole has become a passive recipient of its oral and musical culture, our music comes ready made and hermetically wrapped - it is a commodity rather than an expression of community - as you revealingly say "We all want to protect our songs and if somebody is going to sell them on a CD it is only fair that the usual rates apply" - not the stuff that folk songs are made of.
There is nothing dishonest, inaccurate or even ambivalent about anything Noreen wrote.
Her request contains the invitation to contribute either songs and music that were made in earlier days and are still being performed in the 21st century.
Her "I like inclusivity" indicates that there is no restriction on which form these contributions take.
I do wish singer-songwriters would get it into their heads that we are all guests at a centuries-old feast and would be made more welcome if we learned a few table-manners.
With reference to earlier comments of one ill-mannered guest - must go, me dearie o, my gander-bag's on the washing line and it's started to rain - ooo - arrr
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: selby
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:05 AM

Bert I for one do not understand what you are on about with erroneous statement. All I see is Noreen saw/heard something that may be of interest and shared it. It does not call for the comments you have recently posted. As far as I understand it the BBC want me (if I feel the urge) to play one or a number if tunes in my style or how I perceive them, simple really.

In an attempt to simplify it further, not a tune listed, I think Farewell to Whisky is a slow air by the very nature of its title, although it is usually played as a reel. It would then follow that potentially my offering using this tune as a example would be different. I do not think there is anything hard to understand
Keith


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:13 AM

...The songs you make will never be anybody's but yours - nothing can ever be done with them publicly without your permission....

We tried to address this issue with Aine's songbook and her rules.

If her rules could be accepted generally, then people could use one another's songs freely within that context. I know that many are not aware of these rules which is why I gave specific permission in this thread for EFDSS to use any of my work.

Whilst there may have been nothing intentionally dishonest that Noreen wrote, the link that she posted was not honest. I know it is a small issue of semantics, but its association with a group that sticks closely to its own rather narrow definition of folk, then you would expect it to be a little more careful in its choice of words.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:30 AM

ert -
Come to terms with the fact that if your songs were folk songs there would be no need to "address issues" - they would be in the public domain
They are not, and they're not
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 06:25 AM

Ahem, back on track...

I enjoyed listening to this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-2cuH5Vbxk

(though I do wish they'd just put their arms behind their backs!)


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:21 AM

Are you the guest who... or someone else?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:42 AM

Ahem, back on track...

I enjoyed listening to this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-2cuH5Vbxk

(though I do wish they'd just put their arms behind their backs!)


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 08:38 AM

Of course none of my songs are folk songs, I was just trying to illustrate how easy it would be for EFDSS to use a songwriter's work.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 08:42 AM

Jim Carroll wrote
"Another problem is, of course, is that virtually all newly-composed songs come with a small (c), they are all owned and claimed by somebody, which restricts their use somewhat."


I think that you mean © - the copyright symbol.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:13 AM

"I think that you mean © - the copyright symbol."
How do you do that Vic? - finding your last lesson invaluable for getting up people's noses
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 09:58 AM

"If you start a thread with a false statement and then get upset at people who are interested in truthful posts, then that that is called trolling; a practice which is frowned upon here."

That's possibly the most bizarre troll accusation I've ever seen on Mudcat. Noreen merely drew attention to a Radio 2 initiative (nothing to do with EFDSS) using the BBC's own description of it word-for-word.

Radio 2 is collecting together a bunch of versions of old songs, recorded in 2014. In what sense is that not a "21st century collection"? Anyway, the accusation that this is "stupid and... a lie" should properly be made to the Beeb - when you've finished extracting the honey from your headgear.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 10:30 AM

Jim wrote:-
"How do you do that Vic?"

You need to have a look-up list of Alt codes such as the one that you can see by clicking here.

Look through the symbols to get the one you want. The code for © is 0169. Hold down the Alt and type 0169 on the number pad at the right of your keyboard and then when you release Alt the © appears on your screen.

Got it now? - Good. *

* Producing the 'thumbs up' symbol is achieved in an entirely different way.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 01:48 PM

Brian, the wording implies that these songs and tunes are being collected either in or from the 21st. century. When actually they are just part of an old collection. But I said that once.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 02:43 PM

Thanks Vic
Can't wait - hope a v sign's included somewhere!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: maeve
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:13 PM

I wonder if entries would be welcomed from other parts of the world?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 03:19 PM

Bert,
Once again, NO!

All that I read is the BBC are making a 21st century collection of 21st century fresh performances of some well-known old songs and tunes which are still in the 21st century very much still in vogue, on the folk scene if not elsewhere, (but some of them are, being part of classical collections as well.)

In short they are looking for new arrangements/fresh ideas of how these items could be presented.

Phew!


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 04:26 PM

Uh Oh! we have an unnamed guest butting in here.

What they are doing Mr. Noname, is reworking some old stuff, just because they are doing it in the 21st. century does not make it a 21st. century collection. It is old stuff being reworked. Of course '21st. century collection' sounds much more exciting, but is really just sales hype.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 07:41 PM

Of course Cecil Sharp was collecting 'old stuff' too, but I've never seen it suggested that his collection was anything other than '20th century'.

What's the problem with old stuff, anyway?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jan 14 - 11:13 PM

Nothing wrong with old stuff, it is great; but if someone rehashes a few old songs it doesn't count as a dated collection.

When you date a collection it is either that date that the works were collected or the date that they were created.   

People have been reworking old songs for years. If someone had reworked a few songs or tunes in the eighties that wouldn't be called "An eighties collection" otherwise we would have thousands of dated rehashes.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM

"a few old songs"
For someone who appears not to like folk music (old stuff) very much, you appear to have taken upon your self a great deal in deciding what goes on and what doesn't count.
Very kind of you to let us have the voice of an outsider.
Sharp not oly opened up English Folk song to the world, he and Karpeles did pioneering work in the Appalachians - doesn't count?
Lucy Broadwood recorded songs in Ireland, including Irish language ones - too foreign maybe?
There has been some wonderful work on songs that probably originated in England, in Scotland and in - out-of-bounds?
Lomax was recording shanties in the Bahamas.
You seem to have boiled what everyone who isn't doing singer-songwriter stuff does down to "re-hashing a few old songs"
What should those of us who have been collecting Anglo Irish and Anglo Scots songs and ballads over the last thirty-odd years (rarities that have disappeared from the national repertoire altogether, most of them in better condition than that have been found in England over the last half century) in the West of Ireland, from Irish singers and musicians in Britain, from Irish Travellers living in London) do with what we've recorded - the bin maybe?
Do you actually like this "Ramblin' Sid" stuff - you appear not to understand it or its international significance.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 05:33 AM

Wonder if you are going to tell Mike Yates that the wonderful work Mike Yates has been doing in the US with Anglo American ballads and songs doesn't count?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM

A strong backing for everything that Jim Carroll says in his post of 23 Jan 14 - 03:28 AM

I have been attending and organising folk clubs for over 50 years now. If I listen to much of the singer/songwriter offerings that were around when I first starting going to clubs it sounds transient, dated and irrelevant - of very little interest. At the same time the mass of traditional songs and ballads sound as moving, emotional and timeless as they always did.
There are some writers whose songs of that era still strike a chord - Goulder, Rosselson, Tawney in this country, Dave Van Ronk and Spider John Koerner in the USA but their compositions and those of a handful of others stand out like pearls in huge heaps of dross.

I believe that most of the recently composed songs that I hear on clubs today will be equally transient.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 10:37 AM

Jim, It is Radio 2, that is claiming that three old songs and three old tunes comprise a 21st. century collection, don't blame that onto me.

When I read about a 21st. century collection I was expecting more.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:36 AM

Should read:
There has been some wonderful work on songs in the United States,that probably originated in England, in Scotland and in - out-of-bounds?
Thanks Vic - and thanks for the heads up on fingers, hands, et al - very useful
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 11:47 AM

An outsider? Outside of what?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 01:26 PM

You've now said the same thing seven times, Bert. More than enough.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 03:10 PM

Yer right Brian, if you haven't got it by now, I guess you never will.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

Brian,

looking back on this thread I realize that I have been acting somewhat out of character. I am the one usually opting for change and up to date definitions. And here I was expecting everyone else to conform to accepted definitions and consistent usage.

Of course our language is changing all the time and those of us old farts who are stuck in the mud will just have to learn to get over it.

After all the word 'folk' used to have a specific meaning once, but that was over half a century ago. :-)


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 06:20 PM

It still has that meaning. It's just that it has acquired several new meanings since then. So what? Many words in the English language have multiple meanings. As you say the language isn't static, the lexicologists have full-time jobs keeping up.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: maeve
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:02 PM

If I could trouble someone- Can you tell if an entry from other countries would be welcomed? I've about lost interest after the (interesting but off topic) palaver, but perhaps someone else would like to record an entry, in which case it would be helpful to know.

Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:31 PM

Maeve, it says that you can publish on YouTube which is is international, so I would say go for it.

Just let us know so that we can listen as well.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 23 Jan 14 - 08:36 PM

Steve, yes, but it does diminish the efforts of real collectors somewhat, now that the word collection, means 'a quantity so small that it barely fills up half an album'.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 03:39 AM

"After all the word 'folk' used to have a specific meaning once, but that was over half a century ago"
Then you must tell us what the new meaning is - not to just a handful of clubbies, but to the language as a whole - "it means whatever I want it to mean", doesn't hack it - that went out with Lewis Carroll (no relation)
The sad fact is that folk song and music has never got a toe-hold in the consciousness of the British people, or certainly not the acknowledgement it requires.
It's starting to happen in Ireland with the music, with thousands of youngsters coming to in and, while not losing sight of the traditional base, take it up and take it wherever they wish to.
The end result is a large number of youngsters playing Irish traditional music to a high level of skill, a couple of world-class archives, several traditional music schools to die for, January to December song and music events throughout the year and seven nights a week of traditional music and song on the radio and television.
Irish music has been guaranteed a future for at least two generations.
This has not been achieved by faffing around changing its identity and trying to stuff square pegs into round holes - traditional/folk music remains what t has always been, C&W is still C%W, jazz is still performed each week at our local pub as jazz..... and we all still speak to each other without singing "Roll Over Beethoven" (which appears to be you and yours' theme song) Bert.
Loose sight of what our music is and what it means and we lose our music - simple as that.
You don't like folk song, go and sing something else and don't tell us that those of us who do are a bunch of crumblies - in so many words.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 04:45 AM

Jim,

I didn't say anything about folk song. I commented on what I perceived as the misuse of the term '21st. century collection'. It seems that everyone else here has a different opinion, so I conceded defeat and went along with the Radio 2 usage.

How you got from this, the idea that I don't like folk music is an extrapolation that is beyond my comprehension.

I love folk music, I think that I learned my first English folk songs in the Mid Forties. Due to the influence of American music on the radio at that time, my love for American folk music soon followed.
If you can manage to get Max to release the recordings of Mudcat Radio, you will hear me singing all kinds of old songs, some of which were folk.

I certainly agree with you that folk song doesn't have 'the acknowledgement it requires.' During the Fifties and Sixties my interest in folk was pretty much confined to dancing, I liked singing then but one can't do everything at once. I have always sung but it is only after that that I started performing.

And how "Roll Over Beethoven" came into this conversation I also can't imagine, I can't remember in my whole life ever mentioning it.

And again, where did that outsider comment come from? I've kinda been around here for a while.

And 'bunch of crumblies' Sheesh, what are you smoking? I want some. All I talked about was the Radio 2 project, which whether you like it or not is a rework of a 3 songs and 3 tunes. I see nothing wrong with the project, it is fine if that is what they want to do. If you look at my second sentence above, you should be able to understand what I was complaining about. Not the project itself but what they were calling it.

As Brian says, I have said it several times, and not once did I say anything about not liking folk music. You made that one up all by yourself.

I'm glad that you like Irish music. Irish music has been in our family for three generations now that I know of, and I still sing songs that my Great Grandmother taught my Father.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 06:41 AM

"And how "Roll Over Beethoven" came into this conversation I also can't imagine,"
I may be confusing you with our anonymous and insulting guest - if I have, I apologise, though I believe there are similarities in your attitude.
Every time a project like this one is announced it is greeted by hordes of singer/songwriters chanting "me-me-me"
In general, their output, whatever its merits, bears no relation whatsoever to to the material collected by Sharp or his colleagues and it occupies a different position on our cultural spectrum.
This intrusion has managed to nause up our club scene so that those of us wishing to listen and perform folk song have to tip-toe through a minefield before we attend an event bearing the label "folk".
Despite claims to the contrary, there is no general public understanding of the term - there centainly isn't a universally accepted consensus, hence our failure to catch their attention and win support for our music.
"21st century....." refers, for me, to how the music Sharp et al collected is continuing to be performed in the spirit of those who passed it on to him and his colleagues - not how Vaughan Williams, Delius, Rod Stewart... or any other experimentalist or borrower chooses to use it.
Opening such projects up in this direction makes the exercise futile and, as far as those not involved are concerned, even more confusing than it already is.
If this is not what you are arguing I have misjudged what you are saying and again, I apologise.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: C Stuart Cook
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 07:28 AM

The explosion/wanderings/redirections/confusions that threads can take never fail to amaze me.

To me it just seems there is an opportunity for anyone to come up with their own interpretations of a common starting point. From then on we get into the realms of the folk process as we can see by comparing the efforts posted so far. For me the Barbara Allen of Stick In The Wheel on Soundcloud was an absolute revelation. If that was what Sharp had heard on his bike travels I think he'd have been in raptures.

Whatever the snipes/jeers/critisms are It was worth it all for me, just for that one track.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 07:52 AM

Amongst my many musical loves:-
Jeannie Robertson - "My Son David"
Vaughan Williams - "Fantasia on 'Greensleeves'"
Jali Sherrifo Konteh (kora) - "Kedo"
Seamus Ennis (uillean pipes) - "The Gold Ring"
Chuck Berry - "Roll Over Beethoven"
Davy Stewart - "The Dowie Dens o' Yarrow"
Bob Marley - "War"
Yann-Fañch Kemener - "Skolvan"
Márta Sebestyén - "Szerelem Szerelem"
J. S. Bach - "Brandenburg Concerto No. 6"


My heart and soul belong to traditional song and music but I refuse to let that stop me enjoying all the other music that I love.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 01:02 PM

Jim, Maybe somebody usurped your cookie for the post on 24 Jan 14 - 03:39 AM.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 01:17 PM

Don't get your point Bert - nothing there contradicts the points I have always made
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 01:36 PM

I refuse to let that stop me enjoying all the other music that I love

Vic,

I'm sorry, but you've lost me here. Why would anyone do otherwise, ever? Musical genres are a useful way to help us understand things, but beyond that...

You like what you like.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 03:24 PM

Don't worry about it Jim.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 03:35 PM

Wot - me worry?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: maeve
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 04:04 PM

So...which of you plan to send in an offering?

:)


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Bert
Date: 24 Jan 14 - 11:04 PM

Not me Maeve, I'm nowhere good enough. You go for it and I'll cheer for you.

We friends again Jim?


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Jan 14 - 09:07 PM

Hi, Matt Milton. Thanks for your link to the YouTube. (It was three days ago. I've been busy.) I have a solution to the arms problem. Listen with eyes closed or downcast.

It's fine, interesting singing in a beautiful setting.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 14 - 03:42 AM

"We friends again Jim?"
Sincerely hope so Bert - life's too short
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: maeve
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 09:29 AM

Thanks for your reply, Bert. I'm going to have to leave singing behind, I think, but appreciate your reply.

Noreen, thank you for starting the thread. I appreciate you bringing the project to the attention of those of us who find inclusive ideas a fun challenge.


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Subject: RE: Contribute to Cecil Sharp's Collection!
From: GUEST,Phil at work
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 10:05 AM

Brian P: the parameters have been set very narrow, which always makes for a better challenge

I'll say it's a challenge. I know Sweet William & Lady Marget (fairly well), but not Barbara Allen; I know When I Was In My Prime and Let No Man Steal Your Thyme (inside out), but not Seeds of Love. And whenever I think of Claudy Banks it keeps turning into Warlike Seamen. And I can't play any of the tunes as written (I'll have to transcribe & transpose).

All in all, this could take some time!


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