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Why Yellow ?
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Subject: Why Yellow ? From: Melodeon Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:02 PM In a recent song session someone sang the song "Flash Company" and a discussion arose as to the significance of the "yellow" handkerchief. There are other references to yellow as well eg Shakespeare's Malvolio and his "Yellow cross garters". We thought that the colour yellow could signify availability but perhaps someone out there knows the real significance, if any. Viv |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Penny S. Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:05 PM What about that sixties song "I'm just mad about saffron"? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:25 PM Yellow was the color signifying jealousy in Shakespeare's time, but don't push that too far. Yellow is cowardly now, but 'Buidhe' (yellow) in Gaelic seems to have been the 'fair' (gentile or high class) of English.
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Micca Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:28 PM And what about "Tie a mellow ribbon round the old yolk tree" |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:28 PM Dont yellow roses mean good by? |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Metchosin Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:37 PM a yellow flag flying on a ship meant diease aboard. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Metchosin Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:51 PM eeek typo........DISEASE |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Metchosin Date: 16 Nov 99 - 04:59 PM Probably signifies syphilus as flash girls were prositutes. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Metchosin Date: 16 Nov 99 - 05:01 PM its OK ...I failed typing..... |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Metchosin Date: 16 Nov 99 - 05:15 PM Bad hair day.... I just reread my last post and thought it didn't sound very nice and I'd better explain that I was talking to myself regarding my typing ability and it was NOT a comment upon the above submitted posts. Sorry I shouldn't talk to myself when my fingers are attached to a keyboard. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: katlaughing Date: 16 Nov 99 - 05:26 PM There was also the song, was it Garry Owen, or just its own, anyway "She wore a yellow-ribbon" or "Around her hair she wore a yellow ribbon", something, something, help me out, can't remember it! |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Little Neophyte Date: 16 Nov 99 - 06:23 PM Are you familiar with chakras? These are specific energy centres in the body. Yellow represents the area called the solar plexus which is located around the abdomen/middle spine This area represents self-esteem, will & personal power Gold is also the colour yellow and it signifies wealth. Shields of armor were often made of gold to signify power. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: katlaughing Date: 16 Nov 99 - 06:27 PM Good point, LilNeo! *smacking my forehead* I shoulda thought of that! |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Penny S. Date: 16 Nov 99 - 06:50 PM I wouldn't have fancied hefting a gold shield around! BIt heavy. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Little Neophyte Date: 16 Nov 99 - 07:00 PM Okay, gold plated |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Penny S. Date: 16 Nov 99 - 07:02 PM Otherwise early heavy metal fan? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 16 Nov 99 - 07:54 PM It was yellow stockings that Malvolio mentioned in Twelfth Night. So do Maria and Oliva. Earlier, II, iii, Sir Toby had named it's tune, "Peggy Ramsay". "Give me my yellow hose again" (A Merry Jest of John Thompson and Jackaman his wife), 1586, is sung by Ewan MacColl on Folkways FW 3044.
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Caitrin Date: 16 Nov 99 - 08:15 PM kat, I've also heard your "yellow ribbon" song as "yellow garter", the second being a racier version of the same song. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: katlaughing Date: 16 Nov 99 - 08:19 PM Good one, Penny! maybe it oculd be hammered, thus thinned out gold? Of course, then it wouldn't work very well against steel blade would it? Well, I feel like an idiot. The song I was looking for IS called "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" and is in the DT. Says it is an 1800's descendant of Round My Hat, which I am not familiar with and didn't look up. It was also used in an old Johnwayne movie. My mom had a beautiful hybrid rosebush called the Peace rose, which would fill up wiht gorgeous yellow blossoms. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 16 Nov 99 - 09:36 PM Lucy Broadwood, Cecil Sharp, Frank Kidson, Frank Purlsow and Peter Kennedy have all commented on the song, but none noted any significance of the yellow for the handkerchief. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 16 Nov 99 - 09:49 PM Why don't they color diapers yellow? [like handkerchiefs] |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Mike,NZ Date: 16 Nov 99 - 10:22 PM Cos then you wouldn't be able to tell when they need changing |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 16 Nov 99 - 10:40 PM You got it. I see that the song "Why don't they color diapers yellow" hasn't made it into the DT yet. I'm sure all the Mudcatters in FSGW have heard it, and some probably know it. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: lamarca Date: 16 Nov 99 - 11:20 PM We have actually paid the esteemed Joe Hickerson NOT to sing that song...At one of his house concerts, there was a bowl to pay admission, and a second bowl labelled by some wag "Pay here if you DON'T want Joe to sing "The Diaper Song". He collected a fair amount in the second bowl, and obliged by not singing it...that time. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 17 Nov 99 - 12:16 AM Thanks lemarca. I missed that concert. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: MudGuard Date: 17 Nov 99 - 03:13 AM I think the golden colour (be it massive gold or a thin layer of something in that color) on the shields of armour was there not only to show power, it should also show you are rich. About the diapers: shouldn't the front part be yellow and the rear part brown (sometimes more green than brown)??? MudGuard |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:39 AM Green is noted in the song as an optional color to yellow. Same might do for handkerchiefs. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Garbanzo Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:43 AM Yellow was (is?) the color of the U.S. Cavalry - just as Red is for Artillery and Blue is for the Infantry. The yellow ribbon ("Around her neck she wore a yellow ribbon, she wore it for her lover who was far, far away") meant that her lover was a cavalry officer. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Mbo Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:44 AM During the 1800's, a yellow flag flying by a house meant that it was quarantined for malaria. I don't know about yellow fever. "Yellow is the color of my true love's hair in the morning, when we rise..." --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Allan C. Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:52 AM I have never heard of yellow flowers used to mean goodbye. In some locales that may be the message. When I was in the flower business, a bunch of yellow roses was the symbol of friendship. I have often sent my girlfriend both red and yellow roses to reaffirm that she is my lover and my best friend. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 17 Nov 99 - 12:08 PM The song seems to be found only in the British Isles, and was collected as far back as 1907. When were uniformed U. S. Cavalry to be found in Great Britain prior to the First World War? |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Mo Date: 17 Nov 99 - 12:47 PM Venetian Courtesans used to wear yellow kerchiefs to show their profession/trade - which was an honourable one of course. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Metchosin Date: 17 Nov 99 - 01:11 PM I would think that the yellow handkerchief signifies syphilus. His relationship with her, has brought him to a low state as declared in one of the verses opn the DT. Flash girls and flash company were the wild life and prostitutes, as referred to by sailors of that time. See Pills of White Mercury or Locke Hospital. Yellow flags flew on ships to signify that there was disease aboard. Hence considering the time frame of the song this might be a logical conclusion. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Bruce O. Date: 17 Nov 99 - 03:58 PM I don't see anything above on a time frame. Broadside issues by Hodges (Pitts' descent) and Catnach are probably to be put late in the 2nd quarter of the 19th century. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 17 Nov 99 - 04:26 PM On the subject of yellow roses, according to the Victorian language of flowers, red roses meant sexual love (lust) and yellow roses meant spiritual love (non-sexual, like a friend, a long term partner or a very very good friend). I prefer white ones, for purity (and Yorkshire). The best selling climbing rose in UK is a beautiful yellow one that has a delightful perfume and flowers constantly from May to September. It rejoices in the name (and I'm not kidding here) of "Golden Showers".... Yellow silk ties worn about the person were the mark of courtesans, a sort of posh prostitute and indicated availablity and "broadmindedness". The lower class pros, in a bid to make them look a bit more sophisticated adopted the practice. Just be grateful it wasn't green. LTS |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Metchosin Date: 17 Nov 99 - 05:25 PM Liz the Squeak, my grandfather used the word flash girl to describe a prostiitute. He was ex RN and had sailed under canvas. It seems possible that some of these songs were cleaned up a bit so as not to offend Victorian sensibilities but still retain a few words to give a hint of what they are referring to. The version of Pills of White Mercury, that my grandfather sang, called Down by the Royal Albion, would date itself after 1829, the year that the Royal Albion was built assuming that it was " The Royal Albion" that he was speaking about and not a ship of the same name. I have a friend with more knowledge of this area that I will check with to confirm. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Reiver 2 Date: 17 Nov 99 - 09:04 PM 'Round her neck she wears a yellow ribbon; She wears it in the winter and the summer so they say; And if you ask her, "Why the Yellow Ribbon?" She'll say, "It's for my lover who is far, far away." CHO: Far away, far away; If she is milkin' cows or mowin' hay; Round her neck she wears a yellow ribbon; She wears it for her lover who is far, far away. Written by George A. Norton according to Hugo Frey. John Ford used it for the second of his "Cavalry Trilogy" movies (starring John Wayne). In the film the words are changed to "She wears it for her lover in the U.S. Cavalry." It's possible that the song was actually sung by cavalrymen, or more likely played by regimental bands, but I strongly suspect that Ford just changed the words to make it fit the picture. The whole thing about the U.S. Cavalry wearing yellow neckerchiefs, is purely a Hollywood invention. I've never heard that yellow was "the color" for the Cavalry, but always have assumed that the song was an "American" song, not British. I could be wrong about both. Custer heard the Irish tune Garryowen and thought it would make a splendid regimental tune and "adopted" it as the regimental tune for the 7th Cavalry. He was right about that -- it was a perfect "fit" as a regimental cavalry tune, even better than "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon." |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Reiver 2 Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:17 PM Almost forgot -- the garter reference in the song. In the film "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" a wounded trooper (Corporal Quade, as I remember) is having an arrow cut out of his shoulder and, having been liberally dosed with whiskey, breaks into the "soldier's version" of the title tune: "Round her leg she wore a yellow garter..." While this version would not be untypical of parodies sung by soldiers, I believe it was also an invention of John Ford or of one of the writers of the film. I also checked my on-line version of the Encyclopedia Britannica for "yellow flag" and came up with this: "All over the world a yellow flag is the signal of infectious illness. A ship hoists it to denote that there are some on board suffering from yellow fever, cholera, or some such infectious malady; and it remains hoisted until the ship has passed quarantine. This flag is also hoisted on quarantine stations." Hope this helps. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 18 Nov 99 - 10:24 PM Within the "gay community" there is a "hanky-code."
Depending upon the color, and where/how it is displayed,it advertises the particular perversity to which the owner is partial.
YELLOW - of course - "water sports." |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 18 Nov 99 - 11:25 PM Your mistake is in focusing on the COLOR....the significance is the handkercheif.....WHY does he have a colored snot-rag?
The Hanky Code is a traditional form of signalling to others what your sexual preferences and interests are. Gay men used this code to communicate with each other in the noisy and distracting environment of gay bars. Although not as widely used these days, it is still a worthwhile resource and is, among those who know, a great conversation starter.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Worn on Left COLOUR Worn on Right ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
heavy SM top BLACK heavy SM bottom
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Blackcat2 Date: 19 Nov 99 - 10:38 AM Is this a REAL list? I knew about the hankie significance in Gay bars but never knew that it was that extensive! I guess most men just learn the codes for what they're interested in and don't bother with the rest, huh? pax |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 19 Nov 99 - 11:22 AM Well my yellow paisley kerchief is going straight to the back of the drawer!!! Does it matter if it is french or english mustard colour??? LTS |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 19 Nov 99 - 12:46 PM I suspect from the tone and content of the anonymous messages above that they are contributions of our member who has taken to posting anonymously whenever he has anything particularly nasty to say. I'm surprised that he has such a depth of knowledge on the subject, though, given his rabid anti-gay pronouncements in the past. Or maybe I'm not surprised... --seed |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Garbanzo Date: 19 Nov 99 - 03:45 PM U.S. Army branch colors are not a 'Hollywood invention'. Whether or not calvary troops wore neckerchiefs may be debatable, but I assure you that yellow is indeed associated with cavalry, scarlett with artillery, and sky blue with infantry. Matter o' fact, we can add green for the military police. (I have the damn neckerchief to prove it!) So, while this may have no bearing on the original 'handkerchief' question, as was so tactlessly pointed out, it DOES bear on the 'Yellow ribbon' post. Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Rincon Roy Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:04 AM 1880's US Cavalry Chevrons and pantleg stripes were indeed yellow, but 20th century Ford movies' Yellow Neckerchiefs were pure invention out of exuberant new color filming techniques. However, some say WWII Gen. McArthur liked the movie concept so well, that he had staff wear yellow cravats; life imitating fiction? |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Melodeon Date: 20 Nov 99 - 04:18 PM I am so sorry, My question was genuine but I would not have asked it had I thought that we would be subjected to such an abomination as the anon. thread above. I am NOT a sensitive flower by any means ( I don't know many nurses who are) but that is not IMO acceptable. We all know that much of the folk music we all love is about sex in it's many and glorious forms but one of the real joys of it is it's euphemistic language. I have deliberated as to whether or not to give the writer the honour of a reply but I decided that to ignore it would be tantamount to condoning. I know that my Gay friends would be dismayed to read that piece of homophobic rubbish and I personally find it as offensive as any racist or sexist remarks. I just hope my skin is thick enough to withstand the ridicule I may now receive because I'm feeling a little fragile at the moment. Viv |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 20 Nov 99 - 05:09 PM It used to be called thread creap, but just BS now. Web Graphitti would be a better term. My condolences Melodeon, but it's happened to a lot of us. Mudcat saves it all for what will undoubtably be a grateful posterity. Our kids will have proof of how much more intelligent they are than their elders.
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 20 Nov 99 - 05:31 PM thread "creap"? "Graphitti"? Is this our anonymous poster blaming the decline of Western Civilization for his own post, which--while creepy--wasn't technically thread creep, since it was on topic, although it moved from color ID to keys. And overt homophobia isn't always what it seems: Remember J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn. The nameless one seems to have a lot of inside knowledge of "the love that dare not speak its name." --seed |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: fox4zero Date: 20 Nov 99 - 05:41 PM To anonymous of 11/16/99 at 4:25....I believe that the word you meant to use to describe the upper class English was GENTEEL not Gentile. I'm sure that the gaelic "buidhe" has nothing to do with being a non-Jew. I don't know why unsigned messages are posted by the Mudcat site? No newspaper or magazine would publish an unsigned letter. I have no patience for YELLOW dingo's (see Kipling)who hide behind a veil of anonymity. SIGNED Parish |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 20 Nov 99 - 08:27 PM Sorry, spelling and proof reading are not my strong suits. I think all posts here should have return e-mail addresses. That seems to keep out a lot of nonsense on web subscription lists. Names, blank or bogus mean nothing. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 20 Nov 99 - 09:13 PM Most of our email addresses are available from one of the links in the Mudcat resources at the top of the main forum page. And names actually do mean something here on the Mudcat--they mean real people. --seed (Notice my thread name is followed by my real name) |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:23 PM Without the e-mail attached to the posting nothing is accomplished. What's to prevent anyone else from signing on as BSeed(Charles Katz). |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:34 PM What is reality to one .......................is a phantasomorphism to another
dependent upon the astro-sphere
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: BSeed(CharlesKratz) Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:40 PM Point Well Taken!_gargoyle neither subtle nor anonymous |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Date: 20 Nov 99 - 10:53 PM I'm even using my girl friend's computer, (different return e-mail) and she's never looked at the Mudcat Forum. I could now use any name or none and who could trace it? |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 20 Nov 99 - 11:10 PM You're posting as me again, huh, Garg? Most of us here respect the right of others to the exclusive use of their own names. Some of us lack that respect. --seed |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: wildlone Date: 21 Nov 99 - 07:22 AM Not wishing to break in on this discusion with the nameless one Colours had a lot of significance with how and where they were worn. I have come across green and yellow together as being the devils colours[Randall my son,etc]. But i can't think where I read it. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: wildlone Date: 21 Nov 99 - 07:33 AM I asked me Mother about the "Royal Albion" she seems to remember it as a dock in Liverpool. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 21 Nov 99 - 01:03 PM Green and yellow are seen as poison - what colour was them eels, Randall my boy?? Green and Yellow..... LTS |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: wildlone Date: 21 Nov 99 - 05:20 PM Mother who has studied Tudor history say's that Mary Queen of Scots often wore green and yellow together. Goose turd green and gold. Green and Yellow together are unlucky. in the version I have got "them eels they were snakes,Randall my son. |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Melodeon Date: 21 Nov 99 - 05:44 PM Reading through all the contributions it strikes me that with the possible exception of the yellow flowers all the uses of the word yellow signify something that is "not very nice" and to be avoded ie plague, disease or generally socially unacceptable in the cases of prostitution etc.. There is also of course the cowardly use of the colour. I wonder why the colour Yellow in particular has been singled out for this usage. Could it be that unlike red/green/blue in colour blindness it is less likely to be confused with another colour so is more readily identifiable and therefore by association its meaning less likely to be misunderstood. Melodeon |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 22 Nov 99 - 06:12 AM possible exception of yellow flowers? I repeat: the best selling climbing rose in UK is a yellow repeat flowering variety called 'Golden Showers', definately not very nice (unless you like that sort of thing..... euoo!)
(incidentally, I have one in my garden, it goes nicely with the bleeding hearts, bloody cranesbill and bastard service tree, all of which, I guarantee are real plant names.) LTS |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Penny S. Date: 22 Nov 99 - 07:18 AM Possibly a good many of the elderly ladies who garden have no idea there is anything iffy about the name at all. Penny |
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Subject: RE: Why Yellow ? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 22 Nov 99 - 09:09 AM But those of us who do have a damn good laugh about it!!! Just imagine, when granny looks up lovingly at her house and says things like 'oh look at my golden showers, isn't it big this year!! Oddly enough, my mother understood the significance, but my father didn't, and as I know they never went out with anyone else, I'm a bit suspicious about some of the company my mother's been keeping recently...... LTS |
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