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Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen

GUEST,leeneia 04 Feb 14 - 11:13 AM
Ernest 04 Feb 14 - 11:48 AM
GUEST,leeneia 04 Feb 14 - 12:52 PM
GUEST,Grishka 04 Feb 14 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,leeneia 04 Feb 14 - 10:37 PM
GUEST,leeneia 06 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Grishka 06 Feb 14 - 01:32 PM
GUEST,Leadbelly 06 Feb 14 - 02:19 PM
GUEST,leeneia 09 Feb 14 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,Grishka 10 Feb 14 - 04:01 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 10 Feb 14 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 10 Feb 14 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,leeneia 10 Feb 14 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 10 Feb 14 - 10:44 AM
GUEST 10 Feb 14 - 11:19 AM
Ernest 10 Feb 14 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 11 Feb 14 - 06:00 AM
GUEST,Grishka 11 Feb 14 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 11 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Feb 14 - 08:52 PM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 12 Feb 14 - 04:11 AM
Leadbelly 12 Feb 14 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 12 Feb 14 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Feb 14 - 10:50 AM
Ernest 12 Feb 14 - 11:55 AM
GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!) 12 Feb 14 - 12:02 PM
Leadbelly 12 Feb 14 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,leeneia 13 Feb 14 - 11:04 AM
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Subject: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:13 AM

I want to sing 'Ellens Dritter Gesang,' which is about a Scottish lady praying to the Virgin Mary for herself and her father. I would like to get help from a German speaker about the last verse.

It says:

Wir woll'n uns still dem Schicksal beugen, da uns dein heil'ger Trost                     anweht.

Der Jungfrau wolle hold dich neigen, dem Kind, dass fuer den Vater fleht.

============
Soll 'der Jungfrau' DIE Jungfrau sein?
Wolle = will?

Was meint 'hold'? Es muss ein altes Wort sein.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 11:48 AM

Hi leenia,

German wikipedia translation

No literal translation though, "hold" is an old fashioned term for pretty, good-looking, graceful etc.; "wolle" is somthing like "he should will" in a more literal sense

A more literal translation of the german version could be: "he/she should bow gracefully to the virgin (Mary)".


American Wikipedia article


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 12:52 PM

Danke sehr, Ernest.

I've been remembering my German class from many years ago, and I think that 'wolle' would be what we called the weak subjunctive.

Es ist nett, das Sie 'hold' erkennen. My German dictionary site assumed I was asking to translate the English word 'hold' into Deutsch.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 01:58 PM

My translation (FWIW):

Would you kindly incline to the virgin, to the child who begs for the father.

Scott's original makes the point more precisely:
Hear for a maid a maiden's prayer;
And for a father bear a child!
The translator Adam Storck did not exactly do a splendid job; had he only known that he was breaking the tongues of singers worldwide and for centuries (particularly of those who wished to convey the meaning to a German-speaking audience - pretty hopeless)!

It is of course not practical to sing the original with Schubert's tune. Singable translations exist, but Scott's ghost is daunting.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Feb 14 - 10:37 PM

Recently, in a thread about 'ear worms,' somebody cited a psychologist, who said that songs stick in our heads when we don't know them completely. That has been happening to me with this song, I start singing the German, then I don't know it to the end, so it keeps coming back, whimpering to be finished. I find the first verse quite singable, and I'm still learning the second.

My husband said that this song reminds him of today 'apocalyptic' movies, in which a young person finds that the world is falling apart and he doesn't know what he should do or how to survive. Also, he finds himself in bizarre landscapes. That's Ellen's situation as well.

In my opinion, Scott's original sounds like it was written by a lawyer.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM

'Ellens Dritter Gesang' is a little-known song with a very famous melody (Ave Maria, gratia plena...). For such a famous melody, it has very little documentation on the Internet.

There's no MS of it at the library in Vienna, and I can't find any facsimiles of any 19th C. MS's. It isn't even clear whether it's in 4/4 or 6/8 time.

There was definitely a 'garage-band' spirit to the first production. Storck wrote the words, Schubert wrote a great melody, and somebody else put some folk-type chords to it. So when I see modern versions with complicated features like double dots, 32nd notes and ties never seen in nature, I strongly suspect that Schubert didn't write it that way.

Lyrics: Every version of the lyrics that I can find is exactly the same. That's suspicious. Lyrics that have been kicking around since 1825 should vary some. I think everybody on the net is copying one source from somebody else on the net, and that source had a corrupt last line.

"Der Jungfrau wolle hold dich neigen, dem Kind, dass fuer den Vater fleht" simply does not make sense, even allowing for poetic license. It has no subject, and there is no reason for 'Kind' to be in the dative.

I'm going to folk process it to:

Der Jungfrau wolle hold ich neigen, ein Kind, dass fuer ein Vater fleht.

And now I should be able to sing it.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 01:32 PM

Just tell the audience it's Pennsylvania Dutch. Why do you ask us, if you do not want to read the answers or the Wikipedia articles?


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,Leadbelly
Date: 06 Feb 14 - 02:19 PM

Don't know whether this is of some interest but here are german lyrics including "Jungfrau" at the end.

Ave Maria! Jungfrau mild,
Erhöre deiner Kinder Flehen,
Im Tal der Tränen sei uns Schild


Lass mein Gebet zu dir hinwehen.
Wir schlafen sicher bis zum Morgen,
Dein Sternenmantel deckt uns zu.
O Jungfrau, siehe unsere Sorgen,
O schenke unsern Herzen Ruh!
Ave Maria!

Ave Maria! Reine Magd!
Wir wollen gläubig dir vertrauen
Du süsse Jungfrau, unverzagt
Voll Hoffnung zu dir aufwärts schauen,
Und still uns Gottes Willen beugen,
Da uns dein heilger Trost anweht.
O Jungfrau, wolle hold dich neigen
Dem Kind, das bittend zu dir fleht.
Ave Maria!


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 09:43 PM

I don't know what happened, Leadbelly. I posted an e-mail thanking you for those lyrics. I esp like the image "Dein Sternenmantel deckt uns zu" which means "Your mantle of stars covers us."

I can only imagine how bright the stars would have been in the Highlands on a clear night in the 1500's, which is where and when the song is set.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:01 AM

The lyrics posted by Manfred-Leadbelly are of course meant to convert the song to a more general prayer to the Virgin, away from the setting of Scott's narrative poem, taking over as much as possible from Storck's familiar lyrics, and still close to the 19th century religious (Catholic, Austrian) style. Definitely a better alternative to the horribly scanning ("Procrustean") "... gratia plena".

Manfred is a native speaker of German, he may answer polite questions about grammar.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:36 AM

OK, here goes...

Firstly, there's nothing wrong with the text as quoted - it certainly does make perfect grammatical sense, although it's rather convoluted.

The confusion arises from the meaning of the word "Jungfrau", which means "maiden", "damsel", but also "virgin", and also refers to the Virgin Mary. The word is used in both its general and specific sense in Adam Storck's German version of Scott's original. The first two lines are:

"Ave Maria! Jungfrau mild,
Erhöre einer Jungfrau Flehen ..."

"Ave Maria! Virgin mild,
Hear a maiden's entreaty/supplication..."

The test should be understood as "one maiden speaking to another", and the Jungfrau in the last lines is Ellen - echoing the first lines.

"Wolle" is a subjunctive, used to express wishes and hopes - something like "oh that such-and-such would happen", "If only ..." etc.

The last verse is::

"Wir woll'n uns still dem Schicksal beugen,
Da uns dein heil'ger Trost anweht;
Der Jungfrau wolle hold dich neigen,
Dem Kind, das für den Vater fleht.
Ave Maria!"

Which means (I'm no poet!):

"we will submit to our fate
As your holy solace wafts over us,
Oh that thous mayst bend over the maiden,
A child who beseeches thee on behalf of its (her) father
Ave Maria"

As to the grammar:

"der Jungfrau" is dative - "to the maiden"

"dich beugen" - reflexive verb - literally "bend yourself", so Storck can get away with omitting "du"

"dem Kind" - also dative, i,e, the "Jungfrau" and the "Kind" are the same person, i.e. Ellen


Phew! Leadbelly's version quoted above is nice, although it changes the perspective by making "Jungfrau" refer to the Virgin Mary - but it basically means the same!


Hope that helps!!

John


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:39 AM

"Test" in my post should of course be "text" - must preview my posts in future!


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 09:46 AM

Yes, I understood about the two uses of 'Jungfrau.' Thanks for explaining why there are two datives in the last part.

I mentioned that I've found this melody in 4/4 and 6/8. Now I've found it in 12/8.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 10:44 AM

Yes, it's a "dative of apposition" - not a phrase you hear every day! It's tending to die out in German these days - you probably hear "am Montag den zehnten Februar" nowadays at least as frequently as the theoretically correct "am Montag dem zehnten". Language change in contemporary German has proved lucrative for Bastian Sick among others! ('Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod'). I don't think Germans get quite as outraged as (UK) English speakers do at every development in the language though!


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 11:19 AM

Hi leeneia,

couldn't reply to your mail, because of Problems with my Personal Page resp. my Password. They told my sending it to me but I didn't receive it.

Anyhow, thanks to John and Grishka for their help.

Concerning grammar I believe I cannot be of real help.

Manfred from Germany


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: Ernest
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:04 PM

Rettet dem Dativ! :0)


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 06:00 AM

"Rettet dem Dativ! :0)"

:-)


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 09:01 AM

John, the problem is not of grammar as such. (BTW, I rather deem "wolle" to be an imperative: "want to!", here used for politeness analogously to French veuillez, hence my translation "would you [please]".)

The real problem is that leeneia does not trust the expertise of Internet posters. Rightly so in principle; no absolute obligation for her to thank you and me, since she may feel she only asked native speakers. (Manfred, you certainly need not thank us at all; my bad to involve you just for sake of rhetorics.) However, the art of obtaining reasonably trustworthy information is a subtle one, and her post of 06 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM does not display it in full perfection.

Just an observation and advice, not a complaint on my own behalf.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM

Hi Grishka - Yes, I think you're right that "wolle" is an imperative - silly of me not to realise! Well spotted! I'm always happy to help where I can, and leeneia did thank me for explaining the two datives!

Best wishes,
John


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 08:52 PM

Now then. Is this right?

"...aus diesem Felsen starr und wild." (This is from the first verse.)

If Felsen is plural, it should be diesen, shouldn't it?

Perhaps Fels is one of those words which take archaic endings, similar to 'Soldaten.'


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 04:11 AM

Hi leeneia,

Fels is one of the so-called "weak" masculine nouns - it's not archaic, there are a lot of very common nouns that add an n or en in declination, e.g. der Name, (accusative den Namen, dative dem Namen), and der Held (den Helden, dem Helden).

There's a good explanation with more examples here:

http://www.vistawide.com/german/grammar/german_nouns03.htm

John


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 10:06 AM

Aus diesem Felsen is sigular. A special one is meant.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 10:14 AM

True, Leadbelly, but I think leeneia was puzzled as to why it wasn't either "aus diesen Felsen" (plural) or "aus diesem Fels" (singular), and the reason is it's a weak masculine noun that adds "-en" in both singular and plural cases. Here it is, as you say, singular.

Regards,
John


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 10:50 AM

Okay, thanks to both of you. I didn't know that Fels was weak.

I'll take a look at that site, Johm.


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: Ernest
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 11:55 AM

"Steter Tropfen höhlt den Stein"* - therefore it`s weak :0)





* = continous drops of water will hollow out a stone


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,John Bowden (not a typo!)
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 12:02 PM

"Steter Tropfen höhlt den Stein"* - therefore it`s weak :0)"

but if you're 'steinreich' you've got a pretty strong bank balance! :-)


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 02:18 PM

I get stoned reading all of this, hihi!


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Subject: RE: Ellens Dritter Gesang; Fragen
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 11:04 AM

steinreich = viele Diamanten, vielleicht

Good joke, Ernest.


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