BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 10:17 AM

Boycott Divestment Sanctions working?

The Economist seems to think so.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 03:15 PM

Like!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 04:16 PM

"The BDS (Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions against Israel) movement has assembled a rather strange sort of bedfellows. It is led by Arab-Muslim professional propagandists who seek Israel's destruction, along with leftist students and faculty members seeking a 'cause,' and non-better than one "to stick it to the Jews." Among them, one could find naïve students with little understanding of the history of the Middle East or the Arab-Israeli conflict. It matters not that their cause is unjust, and transparently anti-Semitic, or that the Arab world unlike Israel's open democracy is homophobic, enslaves women, is utterly intolerant of Christians and Jews, or that its schools breed hatred and misanthropy."

The Hypocrisy of the BDS Movement

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:00 PM

bobad, nice quote. Brilliant attempt to brush away the facts on the ground with empty, loaded words.

these are the worries of Israeli business.

"Mr Lapid, who favours a two-state solution, reels out figures to show how sanctions could hit every Israeli pocket. "If negotiations with the Palestinians stall or blow up and we enter the reality of a European boycott, even a very partial one," he warned, 10,000 Israelis would "immediately" lose their jobs. Trade with the European Union, a third of Israel's total, would slump—he calculates—by $5.7 billion."

The Economist is a business magazine. It is reporting on how politics is affecting business.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:20 PM

Uh huh.

SPME - another self-proclaimed pro-Isreali Goverment apologist propaganda organisation; obviously a non-biased source.

Joseph Puder is and has ben a cheerleader and apologist for Netanyahu and his gang.

C'mon, BooBad- this is even worse than you usual drivel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:29 PM

If anyone believes that a peaceful resolution can be had by demonizing one side in the conflict - well, I have some bad news for you.

Here is one person who is going about it the right way, Ahmed Meligy an Egyptian Muslim. You can read about him and the work he's doing HERE. Check out the links to his blog and that of YaLa. It is people like these who will eventually bring peace to that part of the world not those haters who are trying to "stick it to the Jews."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:35 PM

"stick it to the Jews."

I'm glad that you put that in quotes.

Have you ever heard anyone say that?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:43 PM

Ah yes Greg, Jews supporting their government and having an opinion on BDS, what was I thinking- we can't have that - after all we know what they're like...right.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:47 PM

Is SPME in Israel Bobad? Is it their government they are supporting?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM

Hmm, the analogy of South Africa being overlooked, then?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 08:16 PM

BDS is the strategy of South Africa, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 04:45 AM

"Like!"
Me too Richard.
Israel has just been forced by world pressure to abandon their attempts to ghettoise the Bedouins of Israel - the 'Prawar Plan' has been widely described as part of an attempt to "ethnically cleanse" the Bedouins from Israeli territory.
Previous attempts at ethnic cleansing have included the proposed moving of Bedouins onto toxic rubbish dumps (also abandoned - then at the insistence of The U.N.), and the use of high pressure water cannons and chemical sprays on Bedouin homes and crops.
John Kerry has been accused of "Antisemitism" because he has exposed what he claims to have been deliberate attempts by Israel to scupper the Palestinian/Israeli peace talks.
There is world condemnation of Israel's continuing settlement policy in the middle of peace talks.
Last year a documentary film interviewing a number of ex Mossad chiefs had one of them comparing the present Israeli regime to the Nazis (straight from the horses mouth).
The Israeli regime doesn't seem to care much, why should it - it has powerful allies and nuclear weapons (god help us all)
Maybe hitting them in the pocket with economic sanctions and ostracisation might do the trick - it eventually did with South Africa.
More power to their elbows.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 10:35 AM

Ah yes Greg, Jews supporting their government and having an opinion on BDS -

Gee, BooBad- Seemed to me that article was written by this dude Puder- not by "Jews". Is Puder an Israeli National, by the way?

Do check out the article "The International Holocaust Remembrance Day Charade January 30, 2014 by Joseph Puder. The world pays lip service to the Holocaust — while laying the groundwork for the next one."

And then there are the Israelis and other Jews world-wide who OPPOSE the current Israeli government- or have you forgotten about them, again?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM

http://www.seamac.org/EqualRights.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-kutler/israel-can-do-no-wrong-je_b_4521643.html

http://www.icahd.org/

http://iilah.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/download51921.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Justice_for_Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 01:43 PM

THE GLOBAL BDS CAMPAIGN LAID BARE

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM

"And then there are the Israelis and other Jews world-wide who OPPOSE the current Israeli government- or have you forgotten about them, again?"

Well duh, as in democratic country there are some who oppose their government that's why they have elections.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:16 PM

"THE GLOBAL BDS CAMPAIGN LAID BARE", BooBad?

How about Peter Wertheim's long-standing defense of illegal Isreali "settlements"?

Well duh, as in democratic country there are some who oppose their government ...

And according to you these persons are "anti-Semites", correct?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:50 PM

"THE GLOBAL BDS CAMPAIGN LAID BARE"
We didn't do it guv!!!
They would say that, wouldn't they?
"And according to you these persons are "anti-Semites"
Which means that all Jews are to be held responsible for the Israeli human rights crimes that the Israeli regimes have now been out on over one hundred occasions (to date)
- hmm
Sounds a bit Antisemitic to me!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 11:57 AM

Foreign investment in Tel Aviv Stock Exchange tripled in 2013

Foreign investments in companies traded on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange more than tripled from 2012 to 2013, according to figures the Bank of Israel released Sunday.

Nonresident net investments reached about $1.5 billion in TASE shares in 2013, primarily in pharmaceuticals, banking and communications industries. In 2012, the figure amounted to only $410 million, indicating an increase of some 266% in 2013.
   
Nonresidents also bought $940 million in Israeli shares that were traded abroad, on exchanges such as the NASDAQ, in 2013.

All in all, though, Israelis invested more of their money abroad, with Israel's institutional investors putting some $3.36 billion into foreign shares, households investing $2.1 billion, and the business sector investing $1.3 billion abroad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:23 PM

What are the point of your meaningless snippets Boo-Boo apart from the fact that the Ireali regime is raking in money from its terrorist activities - just as South frica did from enslaving the black population
Doesn't change the fact they are a terrorist state which needs U.S vetoes to keep it out of the War Crimes court
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:26 PM

>>Nonresidents also bought $940 million in Israeli shares that were traded abroad, on exchanges such as the NASDAQ, in 2013.<<

Non residents who defend "their government" from articles in The Economist?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM

Re.BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) praised Israel's economic growth in 2013 and predicted that its economy will continue to grow in 2014 and 2015 at a rate that exceeds growth projections for the OECD's other 33 member nations, Israel Hayom reported.

"Israel's output growth remains relatively strong, unemployment is at historically low levels, its high-tech sector continues to attract international admiration and new off-shore gas fields have come on stream," the OECD said in the executive summary of its 2013 Israel Economic Survey.

The report projected that Israel's economy would grow by 3.7 per cent in 2013, compared to 3.9-per cent growth in 2012. Growth projections for 2014 and 2015 were pegged at 3.4 per cent and 3.5 per cent, respectively. As a result, unemployment is expected to rise from its current historic low of 5.9 per cent to a range of 6.6-6.9 per cent. The OECD also praised the Israeli economy for being one of the most turmoil-resistant economies in the West and for its high-tech industry.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:21 PM

How does that compare with Israel's neighbours Bobad?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:26 PM

You are still arguing "Israel is rich so you can stuff your human right" Boo-Boo
It's still a terrorist state, no matter how rich it becomes - or are you arguing that money puts it above international law?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM

Would that Israel's neighbours enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens - the Middle East would be a much more peaceful and prosperous place.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:44 PM

He is not arguing anything. I say good luck to Israel as more and more people and countries boycott their goods, especially goods like Sodastream, made by exploited labor on stolen land, and more and more of their investment comes from people who enjoy the benefits of other countries while claiming that "their government" is Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 03:12 PM

Ah, Jack, you old anti-Semite you......

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM

Meanwhile, Palestinians who work at the factory tell the International Business Times that they are just trying to make a living.

Yasmin Abu Markhia, 22, is proudly Palestinian. When asked about her nationality, she lifted her sleeve to show a Palestinian-flag bracelet.

Abu Markhia checks and stacks the carbon dioxide canisters that go inside SodaStream machines. She has worked at the factory for just four months. Considering she's a Palestinian living in Jerusalem but working in the occupied West Bank, the political storm is far from her mind. She said she sees no conflict in working at SodaStream: "We are human, we earn good money and the work is good."

SodaStream Yasmin Abu Markhia Yasmin Abu Markhia, a Palestinian worker at SodaStream in the occupied West Bank, proudly shows her Palestinian bracelet. Kate Shuttleworth

Zafid Abu Aballah, 28, is an Israeli Arab who has been a machine operator at the factory for four years. He earns $2,000 a month, significantly more than the Palestinian Authority minimum wage of 1,450 Israeli shekels ($377).

"I have an Israeli passport. If the firm closed I could find another job, but Palestinians would not be able to. There are no jobs for Palestinians in the West Bank," he said. "This is political, but the people here just want to work and live, they don't have an interest in the politics between Palestine and Israel."

Palestinian Nabil Basharat, 40, from a village near Ramallah, has worked for SodaStream for four years and is now a shift manager. He supports his wife and six children on an income he says is high by both Palestinian and Israeli standards. About the boycott, he said it came down to protecting the workers' ability to earn a fair wage:

"We understand their [BDS and Oxfam's] opinion, but they need to understand what the factory gives the Palestinian workers, and there are a lot of factories in this area doing the same thing."

Similarly Palestinian Asharaf Aballi, 28, from Jenin, said he supported his parents, his wife and another eight family members on his income of $2,000: "First off we need a job and an income to live -- I have a family and I need money."

An unemployed youth near Qalandiya checkpoint, who gave his name as Yasser, said the minimum wage in the Palestinian Authority made it nearly impossible to live. "We need more factories like SodaStream. It's hard to get a job there," he said.

SodaStream CEO Daniel Birnbaum told IBTimes on Monday that he is "fed up" with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and that businesspeople should take the opportunity to contribute to peace. He also said he didn't agree with settlements and believes that they shouldn't be built, despite the fact that his factory sits in the center of one. His company can in fact be "a model for peace." "We are showing Israelis and Palestinians that there can be peace," Birnbaum said.

IBT

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:46 PM

I didn't buy anything from South Africa, till the apartheid regime ended.

The same goes for Israel. I look forward to the day I'll be able to eat Israeli oranges as well as South African.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM

BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

I am happy that the Soda Stream PR person could find so many positive stories. Warms the heart. Where is the factory located? How was the land obtained? What is the opportunity cost to the Palestinians of stolen land and flattened orchards?


McGrath

Are Israeli oranges sustainable? The "miracle" of Israeli agriculture seems to have a high environmental cost. I am not an expert on irrigation but I suspect oranges can and are grown more sustainably elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:11 PM

Palestinian workers praise SodaStream - and Scarlett Johansson

It's time to stop faulting Israel for all our problems, Palestinian worker says.

HAARETZ

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 02:57 PM

"Would that Israel's neighbours enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens "
Except those suffering against the apartheid system that is being protested against by Israelis and Arabs alike, of course - not to mention the ethnically-cleansed Bedouins!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM

They actually are better off than Israel's neighbours!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:00 PM

Better than Syrians maybe. But that has been recent.

Bobad, Do you think that HAARETZ is a neutral source? It isn't worth opening the link.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:43 PM

The Bedouin in Egypt are much worse off than Bedouin Israelis.
I am sure there is truth in that survey that found Arab Israelis would not choose to live in Arab lands.
I am sure Israel would let them go if they wanted to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 05:06 PM

The Bedouin in Egypt are much worse off than Bedouin Israelis.

And this is likely confirmed by "all historians", right, self-identified complete idiot?

And that would justify wht Israel is doing, oh self-DEMONSTRATED idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 05:23 PM

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 06:10 PM

"I am sure Israel would let them go if they wanted to leave. "

I am sure that Egypt would not let them in.

What does that have to do with Israel stealing their land?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 06:51 PM

"It is led by Arab-Muslim professional propagandists who seek Israel's destruction, along with leftist students and faculty members seeking a 'cause,' and non-better than one "to stick it to the Jews."

I mustt have missed the reference in that article to "JEWS". All I saw was "ISRAEL".

Perhaps you would point out the comment to which you refer?

Or did you, as usual, invent it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:03 PM

"It's time to stop faulting Israel for all our problems, Palestinian worker says."

How about canvassing the views of a few non "Uncle Tom" Palestinians?

You know, the Palestinians squeezed into 40% of the West Bank. What do they think of Israeli "Democracy"?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 10:05 PM

Apartheid South Africa was also a democracy in the sense that it had elections and a parliamentary system. To get over the criticism that black people weren't allowed to vote they set up Bantustans where they could vote.

Israeli democracy has a similar pattern, with the difference that the excluded electorate actually live in the Bantustans, and the remnant of Palestinians who are not in exile are allowed to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 08:20 AM

"It is not difficult to recognize that BDS's target is not Israeli policies, but Israel itself. American political scientist Norman Finkelstein points out that BDS claims to be agnostic on Israel. However, as he also points out, their three goals only lead to one logical conclusion: the destruction of Israel. This campaign demonizes Israel through the slanderous accusation of apartheid. Israel is not an apartheid state. Israel's Basic Laws guarantee equal treatment for all citizens, including Arab-Israeli citizens. The Occupation, in spite of its brutality, is the result of a long and complex territorial conflict in which neither Israel nor the Palestinians have been without blame. The "Wall" was built for security purposes, not to enforce racial segregation. While the construction of the "Wall" has hurt Palestinians, it has also reduced the number of Palestinian attacks on Israeli citizens. This is the kind of nuance that the label "apartheid" obscures. Indeed, the word "apartheid" is not an accurate criticism of Israeli policies, but a weapon aimed at the very idea of Israel."

The McGill Daily

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM

BDS's target is not Israeli policies, but Israel itself....their three goals only lead to one logical conclusion: the destruction of Israel.

Horseshit. An anonymous, un-footnoted article in a college blog?

Try

Here

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 10:37 AM

"Apartheid" is the Afrikaans word for separation. That seems a fair teem for what has happened to the overwhelming majority of Palestinians, in terms of their homeland.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM

Would the same word encompass the keeping of Palestinians in camps with no rights at all for seventy years, which has been the practice in countries other than Israel.
That really is "separation."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 11:20 AM

"I mean we have to be honest, and I loathe the disingenuous. They don't want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever because they know the result of implementing all three is what, what is the result?

You know and I know what the result is. There's no Israel!"



"They say no they're not really talking about rights. They're talking about they want to destroy Israel. And in fact I think they're right I think that's true. I'm not going to lie. But this kind of duplicity and disingenuous, "oh we're agnostic about Israel." No you're not agnostic! You don't want it! Then just say it!"

Norman Finkelstein on BDS

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 11:38 AM

"The Bedouin in Egypt are much worse off than Bedouin Israelis."
Even if ths were true, so what - it does not excuse the programme of ethnic cleansing Israel has just been forced to abandon (which you supported up to the point that they withdrew if, then you and your two mates went ballistic) - a human rights atrocity is a human rights atrocity whichever bunch of thugs commits it; same with apartheid, chemical weapons, massacring refugees... hand all the other atrocities Isral has been saved from being indicted as a war criminal by U.S. - U.N. veoes ("but they said they didn't do it!!").
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 11:49 AM

Is Norman Finkelstein one of those Americans who is defending their government in Israel?

Who is he that we should take his word as to what the BDS movement means over the word of those leading the BDS movement?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM

Jews all over the world decry the violence of Zionism, which entails the oppression of Palestinians.

Norman Finkelstein does't believe that a compromise in Israel which will accept leadership of both Jewish and Palestinian governance is possible.

We have a similar problem in America where many Christians want to Christianize America and not allow other religious or non-religious views to take root, defending Israel in their theological nationalism as a part of their own biblical prophecy.



The BDS movement is not a cult because it doesn't ostracize people who don't join it.
There is no guru here. The purpose is to send a message to Israeli leaders that they don't want expansionist behavior, restrictive walls and the maltreatment of the Palestinian people.

The nations of Israel and America must be redefined to include democratic values and not authoritarian religious values. The US is not a Christian nation therefore it behooves Israel not to be a Jewish nation. Theocracy can lead only to more bloodshed.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 12:18 PM

Is Norman Finkelstein one of those Americans who is defending their government in Israel?

Unfortunately, yes. But he must have hit his head recently - ordinarily, he's usually considerably more connected to the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 02:22 PM

Finkelstein is reacting. He's made valid points in the past but he is in danger of becoming bigoted like Alan Dershowitz, his nemesis.

BDS is about reconciliation in a meaningful way through non-violent action.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:08 PM

I may be being a bit dense here, but why would (quote) "the end of the occupation, the right of return, and ... equal rights for Arabs in Israel." necessarily bring about the "destruction" of the state of Israel?

Sure it's boundaries may shift a little and the demographics would adjust - as is indeed a natural byproduct of the osmosis of human movement - but so what? How does that destroy a nation? Especially a supposedly modern democratic one.

I guess I should really watch the video.. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:27 PM

The Jews would become a minority.
Israel was created to be a "Jewish State."
It would cease to exist as such, and become one more Arab state.
Jews are not treated well in Arab states.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:54 PM

why would (quote) "the end of the occupation, the right of return, and ... equal rights for Arabs in Israel." necessarily bring about the "destruction" of the state of Israel?

It obviously wouldn't - necessarily or otherwise.

(And pay no attention to that Keith behind the curtain.)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 06:20 PM

"Would the same word encompass the keeping of Palestinians in camps with no rights at all"

Yes indeed, including but not limited to, Gaza and the 40% of West Bank behind the wire.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 01:44 PM

"The Jews would become a minority.
Israel was created to be a "Jewish State."

This is analogous to Christians in America. Fortunately America is not a Christian nation as John Adams so eloquently wrote. I don't think that Jews would necessarily be in a minority and this belies the fact that among Arab people, there are different cultural groups, one being Palestinian.

"It would cease to exist as such, and become one more Arab state."

Nonsense. This assumes that all Arab states are alike, more chauvinism.

"Jews are not treated well in Arab states."

Historically Jews were treated with respect in Islamic countries. Perhaps, today, with cause, Zionists are treated by some Arab states with hostility due to the Zionist national proclivity for war and oppression. Again, criticism of Zionist behavior can't be equated with Anti-Semitism because, 1. Arabs are a Semitic tribe and 2. Not all Jews like the Zionism being practiced in Israel today that has been co-opted by the dictator, Netanyahu.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 05:16 PM

The Jews had no state.
They were persecuted in every land they found themselves, and were subject to the greatest genocide in human history.
The UN agreed to give them their own state.
Just a tiny sliver of land, invisible on a map, lost among the vast surrounding Arab lands.
Their persecutors would deny them even that.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM

"The UN agreed to give them their own state.
Just a tiny sliver of land, invisible on a map, lost among the vast surrounding Arab lands.
Their persecutors would deny them even that. "

Yeah perhaps it wasn't the best idea to settle on occupied land?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:25 PM

No no, Keith GOD gave them the land. And they occupy it, and extend that occupation wherever they see fit, by GOD'S will.

Try to keep up, will you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:29 PM

...the greatest genocide in human history...

I think the indigenous peoples of the Americas might contest that, Keith.

Of course, they didn't occupy the Americas by Divine Right, being Godless savages.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:50 PM

"Yeah perhaps it wasn't the best idea to settle on occupied land?"

They were settled in the homeland of the Jewish people - where would you have had them settled?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:33 PM

"They were settled in the homeland of the Jewish people - where would you have had them settled?"

That argument is up for grabs. Who was there first? That has never been rationally solved.
Propaganda instead of facts. The UN didn't know they were about to kick out the people who were displaced otherwise they might have reconsidered.

The solution is for Israel to overthrow democratically Netanyahu and his party and replace it with a government that can share equal polity with the Palestinian population. In America,
there is a Christian majority regarding religious preference but our Constitution is secular and doesn't give Christianity any special office, but not many rational Christians think they will be displaced by any other religious or non-religious group. This is because the US is not a theocracy, at least not yet.

israel has to give up being the reactionary theocratic nation state and embrace a true democracy entailing diversity. Jews have been around a long time and have nothing to fear about becoming extinct. If Jews are in the minority, so what? In a true democratic state they won't be persecuted, witness America where they are in a minority and thrive.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 10:11 PM

"where would you have had them settled?"

Who should give up the land for European Jews persecuted by the Germans? How about the Germans?

Alberta?

Wyoming?

Guyana?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 02:18 AM

Of course the UN knew the implications, but they reached agreement and took the decision.
That is History.

The Jews had no state.
They were persecuted in every land they found themselves, and were subject to the greatest genocide in human history.
The UN agreed to give them their own state.
Just a tiny sliver of land, invisible on a map, lost among the vast surrounding Arab lands.
Their persecutors would deny them even that.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM

'The history recounted in the Bible is a huge part of the mythology of modern Zionism. The idea of a promised land is based on narratives that assert with complete confidence stories that never actually happened'


The Old Testament's made-up camels are a problem for Zionism
theguardian.com
Andrew Brown: The earliest camel bones have been dated at 1,500 years after Genesis – which undermines Zionists' promised land narrative

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:56 AM

Israel exists because of UN, not OT.
Anyway, Egypt did have camels.
Abraham might have brought some back.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 10:51 AM

I missed this.

From: bobad - PM
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM

Would that Israel's neighbours enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens - the Middle East would be a much more peaceful and prosperous place.


Would that all of the people inside the borders that Israel controls enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens - the Middle East would be a much more peaceful and prosperous place.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 11:29 AM

Nice to see the usual suspects lining up behind Israeli atrocities and human rights abuses as has come to be expected – brings a warm glow!! They'll be blaming "the Jews" for the Israeli regime's terrorist behaviour next – then we'll really know that all is well and God is in his heaven
Jim Carroll
Oh - I forgot - Israel didn't do it (whatever it was) they said so!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 02:24 PM

Maybe someone can produce a list of historians that can prove they didn't do it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 03:49 PM

Oops!

Wael Elasady, a fixture on the extremist anti-Israel circuit visited the University of Washington on January 30th to promote his Marketo buysvision for a Middle East free of the Jewish state. Not bound by the constraints of veracity or truth, Elasady regularly libels Israel, claiming that Arab political parties are banned in Israel (not true) and that converts to Judaism are ineligible for the "Right of Return" (also not true).

In a convoluted apologia for the defacing of a Star of David with a Swastika at a PSU event, Elasady compared the Nazi genocide to Israel's response to Arab violence. "It's not surprising that many leverage moral indignation at Nazi crimes against the Jewish people to draw attention to oppression of the Palestinians by Israel" asserted Elasady.

At the University of Washington event Elasady advocated for the economic strangulation of Israel through Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS). Elasady urged the impressionable students to pressure business and academia to cease investment in Israeli corporations.

This position is particularly ironic when one considers that Elasady's employer (according to his Linkedin page) Marketo is a major investor in the Israeli economy. In addition to purchasing Israeli company Insightera for 20 million dollars just two months ago, Elasady's company is setting up a research and development center in Israel, which will employ Insightera's current workforce.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM

Japanese Internet giant snags Viber for $900m

The biggest-ever buyout of an Israeli tech company by an Asian firm will likely lead to more Asia-Israel deals, experts say

Yup....BDS is really "gathering weight".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 05:15 PM

Maybe someone can produce a list of historians that can prove they didn't do it?

I'm sure Keith will assert that ALL historians assert they didn't do it - whatever it was.

Good enuf?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM

"The biggest-ever buyout of an Israeli tech company by an Asian firm will likely lead to more Asia-Israel deals, experts say
Yup....BDS is really "gathering weight".

It is but not coming from corporations who find in convenient to capitalize on propaganda.
It's coming from people who have no ties to corporate buyouts or criminal wall streeters.
It's a quiet movement but becoming more known as Israeli leaders commit more atrocities and as BDS stresses non-violent ways of dealing with Israel's military.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:12 PM

"The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) praised Israel's economic growth in 2013 and predicted that its economy will continue to grow in 2014 and 2015 at a rate that exceeds growth projections for the OECD's other 33 member nations, Israel Hayom reported."

Yup...keep on BDSing.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:34 PM

And praise of PAST performance proves what, eggzackly, BooBad?

Or do the amassed sheckels negate abysmal performance in the area of Human Rights?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:45 PM

"And praise of PAST performance proves what, eggzackly, BooBad?"

Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) is a global campaign[1] which uses economic and political pressure on Israel to comply with the stated goals of the movement: The end of Israeli occupation and colonization of Arab land, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and respect for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.[1]

The campaign was started on 9 July 2005.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 02:11 AM

Anyone baffled by those references to historians by Jim and Greg, just see my replies on the Christmas Truce thread.
thread.cfm?threadid=133984&messages=721&page=1&desc=yes

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM

"Anyone baffled by those references to historians by Jim and Greg"
Yup - that's what I said; an extremely long thread which you dominated with jingoism, invented a bunch of historians who didn't even say what you claim them to have said, and called word war one veterans liars because their experiences didn't tie up with your re-writing of history, topped off by an excellent television series on WW1 which left your case in shreds - "who could ask for anything more", as the song says.
Anyway - mustn't allow ourselves to be diverted.
Israel has a history of war atrocities, involvements in massacres, usage of heavy artillery and chemicals on impoverished farmers and besieged house-dwellers.
A peace treaty was set up - Israel immediately announced the continuation, eventually acceleration of "Israeli only" settlements on seized and disputed lands, sent troops into neighbouring countries, attempted to ethnically cleanse a nomadic community... and a whole host of recognisably hostile acts designed to wreck the peace conference unless it guarantees all their expansionist aims.
It is in the process of setting up an apartheid state and has been recognised as doing so by protesters from within and without Israel - the only reason the Israeli regime is not facing human rights abuses is the intervention of the U.S. with over 100 vetoes in the U.N.
last year an ex head of Israel's own security service deplored what Israel had become, visibly stopping himself describing it as a 'Nazi' state - five others more or less backed up his description of what was happening (see the documentary - The Gatekeepers)      
Israel is a terrorist state with nuclear capability, so we can all sleep east because "it has God on its side" we are told.
Now let's hear it for gallant little Israel
And please do not try to turn this into another of our Tweedledum-Tweedledee exercises with thread-drift - my reference to your 'historians' applies to all your contributions nowadays which invariably end with your scurrying behind "experts" and "historians" when you run out of arguments, or, in Israel's case, "They said they didn't do it".
Now what were you saying about Israel being devoid of all sin....?   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 04:42 AM

I scurry behind experts and historians because I can.
I back up my views with hard evidence.
How you hate that, and have no answer to it.
In the face of overwhelming hard evidence from historians and documentaries, you fled the WW1 thread, and pretend on this thread it is not so.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 07:32 AM

Yeh, yeh - we know all that you swept the board with the vote, didn't you (whoops sorry - forgot - you declared yourself "infallible" so it' didn't matter anyway.
Now - stop thread-drifting and tell us why the Israeli regime is apparently as infallible as you declare yourself to be?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 07:47 AM

Huh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:40 AM

"As often as not, the actions that most effectively advance the goal of peaceful coexistence are taken by people who would never think to refer to themselves as peace activists. A new planned city called Rawabi [Hills] is going up in the West Bank. A Palestinian company called Massar International is building it with the approval and cooperation of Israel. The first 600 Palestinian families are scheduled to move in this summer. Phase one will represent a private investment of one billion US dollars in Palestine and will house 25,000 Palestinians in what will be the largest construction project in recorded Palestinian history.

Bashar Al-Masri is the managing director of Rawabi. Speaking about buying supplies in Israel he said, "It makes no difference to us if the company is Israeli, Italian or German.. It is a mistake to separate our economy from Israel's. Projects like this bring our peoples closer together: Israelis come to the site, they are exposed to Palestinians, and they realize there's no risk in coming here. There is a sense of comfort."

In Rawabi, the brand-new Palestinian city, both sides win

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:30 AM

The punching bag bigots of anti-Israel boycotts

The practitioners of anti-Israel boycott bigotry are bent upon disrupting the free flow of knowledge, academic discourse and civilizational advancement in the Western World. They must not be allowed to do so, for we are all in peril if they are, says Vijeta Uniyal of Indian Friends of Israel

The Italian philosopher and politician Niccolò Machiavelli famously said: "Never attempt to win by force what can be won by deception". After decades of aggression failed to destroy Israel, deception is the "new" game in town.

This deception has a name, or to be precise, a lame sounding acronym -- BDS, the campaign of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel.

The BDS campaign has two main ingredients -- one is deception and the other is another kind of lie. There's the sinister deception about the campaign's own true nature, and a blatant lie about the state of Israel.

The otherwise vocal BDS campaign remains eerily silent about its ties and sympathies with terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The campaign lures in faith-based Christian groups, and LBGT community and feminist groups while at the same time hiding its ties with the homophobic and misogynist clerical regime of Iran.

Yes, indeed. The BDS campaign calls for an academic and cultural boycott of Israel, while doing the bidding of its masters in Tehran who offer bounties on the heads of writers abroad and hang poets for penning dissenting verses at home.

The BDS campaign targets and maligns Israel, the only functioning democracy and liberal-minded multi-ethnic society in the Middle East -- a country that doesn't discriminate negatively against its citizens on the basis of gender, sexual orientation or faith; and where every citizen has access to an impartial judiciary for redressing grievances regardless of faith or ethnicity.

The terrible beauty of the BDS campaign is that it does not have to bind itself to facts. This fact-free campaign is all about emotions. The campaign scouts interest groups, communities and campuses for "grievances". Their game plan is to whip up emotions, ratchet up the hate, and present the mob with a target, namely Israel.

The fact that their issues and grievances have nothing to do with Israel doesn't really bother BDS campaigners.

There is something for everyone. An all-inclusive package to fight "evil corporations", "apartheid", "racism", "militarism", "gender oppression" -- or any other perceived discriminations. On university campuses all across Europe and North America, the BDS's message is simple: "If you have a grievance worth getting mad about, we have just the right punching bag for you."

The BDS campaign camouflages itself as the reincarnation of the Résistance, the Civil-Rights Movement or the Gandhian Civil-Disobedience movement in our times. The fact that it has nothing to do with the reality of Israel isn't allowed to dampen the mood at this anti-Israel slugfest.

On the other hand, those in the western liberal academia and self-proclaimed "civil society" also have no big qualms about hopping on a bandwagon driven by Hamas or Hezbollah.

The question worth asking would be; what drives elements like Hamas and Hezbollah to hate Israel. It is not about the "settlements", the "refugees" and the "occupation". It is about the very existence of Israel; the existence of a free, humane and enlightened society in a neighborhood of bigotry, despotism and tyranny.

The contempt and hatred of Israel is in fact contempt and hatred of Western Democracy and Civilization. The radical Left in the West hates the values signified by Israel just as much as the religious supremacists in the Arab world do. It is a match made in hell in which the BDS campaign plays cupid bringing these sadists and masochists together to form an unholy alliance.

It would be hilarious, if it wasn't so tragic. The BDS campaign uses the avenues and free spaces provided by the liberal and open societies to hit at the very core of values that built them in the first place. It uses University campuses, faculty unions and student bodies to divide and polarize. It targets trade unions, local communities and churches to spread the mean-spirited gospel of BDS.

The BDS campaign will never achieve its intended goal of "bringing Israel to its knees". However, it is bound to have unintended consequences.

The practitioners of BDS are bent upon disrupting the free flow of knowledge, academic discourse and civilizational advancement in the Western World. They must not be allowed to do so, for we are all in peril if they are.

Vijeta Uniyal is an Indian entrepreneur based in Germany. He is founder of "Indian Friends of Israel", an initiative of Indian Diaspora in Europe to promote friendship between India and Israel. The article reflects the personal view of the author.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:20 AM

The article reflects the personal view of the author.

Whoopee. Another loonie heard from.

The otherwise vocal BDS campaign remains eerily silent about its ties and sympathies with terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Evidence? Proofs? Or just more of the usual BullBooBadShit?

The contempt and hatred of Israel is in fact contempt and hatred of Western Democracy and Civilization.

Now that IS pure BullBooBadBatShit.

Yup, Robin Shepherd, neo-conservative warrior, creator of "The Commentator" website and his paid lackey Vijeta Uniyal.

This is even below your usual standard of nonsense, BooBad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:29 AM

So?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM

Do you think that it would be possible to discuss your differences without the insults?

Bigots? The Palestinians and Israelis are the same race. Certainly they are as closely related as Swedes and Spaniards.

BullBooBadShit?


Come on!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 11:07 AM

Greg is not worth getting worked up over - I consider him with the same part of my brain with which I consider mosquitoes.

To All Israel Boycotters

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 11:36 AM

Bobad, Perhaps you do not understand commerce. Perhaps you do not understand intellectual property? Perhaps you don't understand medical research? Perhaps it is rhetoric that you do not understand.

I am very happy to boycott goods and services produced on occupied land and companies which supply goods and services used in the occupation of that land.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 11:53 AM

Perhaps you don't know what BDS is really about. As Omar Barghouti, a graduate student at Tel Aviv University and BDS founder, admits, "If the occupation ends . . . would that end support for BDS? No it wouldn't—no."

BDS is a movement motivated by hatred of Jews and a desire to see the end of the Jewish state.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:01 PM

Greg is not worth getting worked up over

Agreed, BooBad.

However, your constant stream of "My Zionism, right or wrong" ceartinly IS.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:03 PM

"I am very happy to boycott goods and services produced on occupied land and companies which supply goods and services used in the occupation of that land."


The problem is that unless you are boycotting

the US ( Native Americans),
Canada ( Native Americans)
Australia (Aboriginals),
China (Tibetans),
Russia (Chechnyians)
Iran (Ba'hias)

and a number of other nations, and those THEY do business with, the BDS is really aimed at Israel- and if ALL those who oppose anything Obama does do so because they are racist, as many here at Mudcat claim, that indicates that those who pick on Israel are doing so because it is the ONLY Jewish state and they are Anti-Jew..

In fact, a boycott of Israel will hurt the Palestinian economy far more than the Israeli one.



I note not one comment about the Arab states that

Prohibit Palestinians from settling as citizens
Have driven out MORE Jewish refugees than the number of Palestinians who fled Israel
Have Laws against JEWS (Not Israelis) limiting their rights


Nor do I see one mention of the Jews AND Christians ( pre-Israel) driven out of the West Bank
in 1948. I guess that the rights you are fighting to give to Palestinian Muslims do not apply to those Palestinians who are Jewish or Christian?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:09 PM

Hi Bruce, Your points are noted. Do you believe that I support BDS because I am "ANTI-Jew?" I do not.

bobad,

The Jewish state is going to end. It is not geopolitically or democratically stable. Theocratic government is an anachronism, just as the racial elite was in South Africa.

BDS is a way for the racists in Israel to save face and concede power over others for economic reasons without going down fighting and starting World War III. I think we will see one or the other in our lifetimes. I prefer peace.

By the way, do you think that people who opposed Apartheid should be refused heart transplants?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM

Jack,

I respectfully await your explanation why ISRAEL should be held to standards you do not apply to the US, Canada, Russia, China, Australia, Iran,or the Vatican?


Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:33 PM

"Theocratic government is an anachronism"

If you believe Israel is a theocratic government I suggest you inform yourself on what constitutes a theocratic government.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 01:25 PM

"The problem is that unless you are boycotting.... "
Once again - they're all doing it so why can't Israel be left aloone to do it
No other stat is systematically ethnically cleansing entire cultural groups to make an apartheid-like state - as did South Africa.
Boo-boo put in in a nutshell - "our economy is booming" (he might have added "we have nuclear weapons and the U.S. veto behind us) "so we can do what the **** we like to who we like.
Under pressure, U.S. support is crumbling, South Africa finally wilted under international pressure - i's about time the world was rid of this racist regime that is doing as much damage to the Jewish people as it is to the peace and safety of the rest of the world.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 01:35 PM

>>From: bobad - PM
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:33 PM

"Theocratic government is an anachronism"

If you believe Israel is a theocratic government I suggest you inform yourself on what constitutes a theocratic government. <<


There are a lot of words for how Israel and the people within its claimed borders are governed. Theocratic is partly descriptive and by far the kindest word.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:05 PM

A theocratic government is one that is run by a singular religious group such as Judaism..

Zionism is predicated on a religious view based on it's version of a religious scripture
purporting to be inclusive but is not as Rabbis control Israel and influence its foreign policies. What is going on in the Mid-east today is a religious war.

The BDS has in its policy statement declared that non-violent resistance is the only effective way of dealing with Israel. Palestinians have no military means to establish their rights, being opposed by the superior technological weaponry of Israel and the U.S. including the threat of nuclear use.

The repressive and brutal Netanyahu dictatorship oppressing the rights of Palestinians in obtaining their own state, the expansion of the settlements as a part of ethnic cleansing,
throwing Palestinians out of their homes by bulldozing, killing non-combative bystanders,
many of them children forced into poverty, has incensed the BDS movement, many of them people of Jewish heritage.

Throughout the world, Israel is a pariah, a war-mongering government, deteriorating as a governing society, basing its actions on military repression and religious fanaticism.

Zionist fanatics, propagandists, who rationalize their violation of human rights by shamefully invoking the "holocaust", another egregious violation, would have you believe a lie instead of the truth that the BDS movement is not about destroying Israel, but saving it by turning it from a theocratic dictatorship into a democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:15 PM

I respectfully await your explanation why ISRAEL should be held to standards you do not apply to the US, Canada, & etc.....

Here's a novel idea for you Bruce: instead of giving the government of Israel a pass based on the logic of a two-year-old (But Mommy! Johnny did it first!) how about working to bring ALL of the nations you name up to the same standard?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:49 PM

I offer the past and present levels of Muslim population in Israel compared with the past and present levels of Jewish and Christian population in the Arab nations as proof they the statements expressed by Stringsinger are lacking in a relationship to reality.



640,000 Palestinians fled Israel in 1948.

820,000 Jewish Arabs fled Arab nations in 1948.



Israel settled about 550,000 of the displaced Arab Jews. Most of the rest went to the US or South America.

Arab nations refused to settle the displaced Arab Muslims.



And you boycott ISRAEL?????????

Yet I note NO claim that Pakistani Muslims should be given back land in India, or that Indian Hindus should be given back their land in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Why is that?

No call for Arab nations to give back property to Jewish refugees.

But I keep hearing how Israel should give back land to the Arab Muslims. How about if the West Bank became a Christian nation, to be settled by the Christian Arabs driven out in 1948- 1967?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:53 PM

Like I said, Bruce: "Mommie--- MOMMIE! Johnny did it first!!!

(That makes it all OK)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:55 PM

So, GregF,

What you are saying is that it is OK for everybody but the Jews to do it?

Or is it that you ONLY object to Jews doing it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:58 PM

If a free and fair election were held today in the land that Israel claims. There would be no Israel. Can you claim that about the USA or any of the other countries you mentioned?

Israel does not have the right to turn back the clock to the beginning of colonialism. Palestine in the 2,000's is not America in the 1600's

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:06 PM

Jack,

Are you aware of the history of Mandate Palestine?

77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"


Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:12 PM

"If a free and fair election were held today in the land that Israel claims. There would be no Israel. Can you claim that about the USA or any of the other countries you mentioned?"


Iran, China, and probably Russia, at least. The governments would be entirely replaced, and possibly those nations broken up into various ethnic nations.

Indonesia and the Philippines are other possibilities.




I do not that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:22 PM

What you are saying is that it is OK for everybody but the Jews to do it?

No, you made that up.

Or is it that you ONLY object to Jews doing it?

No, you made that up as well.

You need work on your English comprehension sklls, Bruce.

Also, Right, Bruce - "Mommie Mommie, Johnny did it, too!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:30 PM

"No, you made that up"
Hiding behind "The Jews" has become a stock get-out for atrocity apologists such as Bruccie and Boo Boo.
It is deeply Antisemitic to blame "the Jews" for the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Israeli regime - doesn't seem to stop them doing it though
These crimes are ISRAELI not "Jewish" as the Antisemites would have us believe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:30 PM

"No, you made that up"
Hiding behind "The Jews" has become a stock get-out for atrocity apologists such as Bruccie and Boo Boo.
It is deeply Antisemitic to blame "the Jews" for the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Israeli regime - doesn't seem to stop them doing it though
These crimes are ISRAELI not "Jewish" as the Antisemites would have us believe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:38 PM

Bruce,

I don't think that China and Iran would cease to exist if there was a free and fair election. Most of the people within their borders are Chinese and Iranian. Israel is more like Apartheid South Africa. The governing elites are a minority and becoming more so.

BTW, I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of this. It is just my opinion that the Zionist experiment of a pure Jewish homeland has failed. I prefer peace to war.

BDS ended minority rule in South Africa and I believe it will in Palestine as well.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:08 PM

"There are a lot of words for how Israel and the people within its claimed borders are governed. Theocratic is partly descriptive and by far the kindest word."

And I guess the fact that it's a blatant lie doesn't matter - just one more lie with which to slander and hate.

"A theocratic government is one that is run by a singular religious group such as Judaism.."

If you are implying that this is representative of Israel's government then that is a fucking ignorant statement.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:22 PM

I guess the fact that the "Palestinians" who work for Jewish owned businesses in the west bank oppose BDS and are happy with their jobs and salaries means nothing to the boycotters who are so patronizingly doing what they believe is good for them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:31 PM

"I guess the fact that the "Palestinians" who work for Jewish owned businesses in the west bank oppose BDS and are happy with their jobs and salaries means nothing to the boycotters who are so patronizingly doing what they believe is good for them. "

I suppose that their "happiness" is the reason that they are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:41 PM

"I suppose that their "happiness" is the reason that they are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections?"

Huh???

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:54 PM

As I said to Bruce, Bobad. I'm not trying to convince you. I've expressed my opinion on what will happen, I think you have expressed your opinion on my opinion very clearly.

Are we done?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 05:04 PM

"Before boycotting, they should think of the workers who are going to suffer," says a young man shivering in the pre-dawn darkness in Azzariah, a West Bank town cut off from work opportunities in Jerusalem by the concrete Israeli separation wall. Previously, he earned 20 shekels ($6) a day plucking and cleaning chickens; now he makes nearly 10 times that at SodaStream, which also provides transportation, breakfast, and lunch."

Palestinian workers back Scarlett Johansson's opposition to SodaStream boycott

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 06:32 PM

"It is just my opinion that the Zionist experiment of a pure Jewish homeland has failed."

Another blatant lie. Israel's population is 23% non Jewish who enjoy equal rights under Israel's laws. You do know that professing these kind of lies make you look like an anti-semite don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:43 PM

I don't want to argue definitions with you Bobad.

BDS of Israel are 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:47 AM

"Do you think that it would be possible to discuss your differences without the insults?"
.,,.
Very good question, Jack.

Unhappily, the answer would appear to be no, when it comes to potty-mouthed Greg F. I agree with whoever it was above who said he is best treated liked a buzzing mosquito, & with just as much respect. He is IMO the worst current avatar & practitioner of all that makes so many aspects of this forum a hissing & byword to so many who would like to use it for serious discussion.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 03:08 AM

"just one more lie with which to slander and hate."
There is no argument that the Israeli regime has committed the crimes that they have.
Despite the fact that they have been protected fro the consequences of them by over 100 U.S. Sabra/Shatila,, chemical weapons on schools and hospitals, expansionism, attempting to starve Palestinians into submission, creating an Apartheid state.... all are a matter of record.
The only defence for their behaviour that has ever been put forward in these arguments is "Israel says they didn't do it" and these crimes against humanity are justified because Israel has a god-given right to occupy Palestine.
The main difference between the pros and antis is that whether these crimes Israelis the majority opinion here, or "Jewish" - the usual suspects.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM


There is no argument that the Israeli regime has committed the crimes that they have.

Of course there is!
You yourself have joined in many such arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 06:43 AM

"I don't want to argue definitions with you Bobad."

It's not about definitions, it's about lies and abut using them to demonize a people. Shades of "The Protocols". Shame on you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 07:03 AM

The most recent PSR poll showed that a slim majority of Palestinians would support a two state proposal that Abbas negotiated. It also showed that Palestinians opposed a one state arrangement by a two to one margin. The latest poll of Israelis was released a couple days ago. 63% of Hebrew-speaking Israeli respondents said they would support a negotiated regional peace agreement, even before they were given any details about the hypothetical agreement. When they were given the likely provisons of the Kerry proposal, then the number who said they would support it rose to 76%. Since Netanyahu might have to create a new political party in order to get a government agreeable to the Kerry initiative, the Israelis were asked if they would support Netanyahu if he engaged in that endearvor. 56% of respondents said they would.

IPI group API poll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 08:07 AM

Still waiting, politely, for an explanation of why Arab Muslims should be given rights that Arab Jews are not ( re refugees)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 08:47 AM

See above, Bruce RE: Mommy! Mommy! Johnny did it too!!!!!

Shades of "The Protocols". Shame on you.

Equating it to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Shame on HIM??

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 08:56 AM

Luv ya too, ~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:18 AM

Still waiting, politely, for an explanation of why Arab Muslims should be given rights that Arab Jews are not ( re refugees).

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

Because it would be a mitzvah worthy of a real mensch?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:35 AM

You are not going to get that explanation from me Bruce. Your question is too loaded with definitions and assumptions which I would have to wade through.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:46 AM

Jack,

And the statements of those supporting BDS are NOT "too loaded with definitions and assumptions which (one) would have to wade through."?


So the answer is that we cannot discuss this, but must accept YOU viewpoint without questioning it, while having the opposing viewpoint ignored?

That sound like what GregF is in favor of, but you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:49 AM

77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"


Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?


YES or NO

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM

"The Jewish Homeland" as defined how and by whom?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:54 AM

By the treaty ending WW I .

Are you advocating we get rid of it- and eliminate all the OTHER nations defined and created by it? Or is it just the "Jewish Homeland" that you object to?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM

Are you advocating we get rid of it- and eliminate all the OTHER nations defined and created by it? Or is it just the "Jewish Homeland" that you object to?

None of the above.

Also, RE: the 1919 definition of "The Jewish Homeland": based on what evidence?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:07 AM

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"

The Palestine Mandate

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:19 AM

Thanks, BooBad, but the Balfour Declaration & the League of Nations Mandate do not speak to the definition/delineation of "The Jewish Homeland" by "the treaty ending WWI".

The former DOES contain the following, however:

"...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:21 AM

Balfour Declaration, 1917
Conference of San demo, 1920
Treaty of Sevres, 1920
Treaty of Lausanne, 1923
Legue of Nations mandate 1922

In Sept, 1923, 77+% of the Mandate Palestine territory was split off, with Jewish settlement prohibited, to form the ARAB MUSLIM PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. The REMAINING 32+% was to be the "Jewish Homeland" as envisioned in the above treaties.

Feel free to negate the formation of the Jewish Homeland- S LONG AS you also negate the creation of Syria, Lebenon, Jordan,and Iraq, at a minimum.

"
Class A mandates consisted of the former Turkish provinces of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. These territories were considered sufficiently advanced that their provisional independence was recognized, though they were still subject to Allied administrative control until they were fully able to stand alone. Iraq and Palestine (including modern Jordan and Israel) were assigned to Great Britain, while Turkish-ruled Syria and Lebanon went to France. All Class A mandates had reached full independence by 1949.
Class B mandates consisted of the former German-ruled African colonies of Tanganyika, parts of Togoland and the Cameroons, and Ruanda-Urundi. The Allied powers were directly responsible for the administration of these mandates but were subject to certain controls intended to protect the rights of the mandates' native peoples. Tanganyika (which is now part of Tanzania) was assigned to Britain, while most of the Cameroons and Togoland were assigned to France, and Ruanda-Urundi (now Rwanda and Burundi) went to Belgium.
Class C mandates consisted of various former German-held territories that mandatories subsequently administered as integral parts of their territory: South West Africa (now Namibia, assigned to South Africa), New Guinea (assigned to Australia), Western Samoa (now Samoa, assigned to New Zealand), the islands north of the Equator in the western Pacific (Japan), and Nauru (Australia, with Britain and New Zealand)."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:24 AM

"...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

Negated by the 1923 decision by the Mandate Power (Great Britain) to divide the Mandate territory ( In violation of the stated terms of the Mandate) and provide a Muslim ONLY nation in the greater part 9TransJordan) where Jewish settlement was prohibited..

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:28 AM

>>Jack,

And the statements of those supporting BDS are NOT "too loaded with definitions and assumptions which (one) would have to wade through."?


So the answer is that we cannot discuss this, but must accept YOU viewpoint without questioning it, while having the opposing viewpoint ignored?<<<

I'm not defending the statements supporting BDS. I don't even know what they are. It is not a matter of rhetoric for me.

You and I are friends. I have expressed my opinions about the effects of BDS, you have said why you think what I said is wrong. We can just leave it at that.

The reasons for the mass immigration of pan Arab Jews to Israel, are myriad and extremely complex. Suffice it to say that you seem to be saying that the only reason for that migration is that the Jews were forced out of Egypt, or Jordan or Iraq and that they had no place to go. I know that they were recruited by Israel and that there were other factors. Rather than get into that. I prefer to let your challenge stand, unquestioned.

I don't mind discussing the issue as a favor to you. But it has to be with the understanding that I am not trying to change your mind and I am not trying to change yours and that we both know where we stand already.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:34 AM

Jack: "
"The Palestinians and Israelis are the same race. Certainly they are as closely related as Swedes and Spaniards."

Yet the charge of Israel being racist has been put out here without any comment against it.


The Conflict is RELIGIOUS:

On one side you have the Muslims, who have driven out other religions (Bahai, Christian, Jewish)

On the other you have Israel, which

"Religion in Israel is a central feature of the country and plays a major role in shaping Israeli culture and lifestyle, and religion has played a central role in Israel's history. Israel is also the only country in the world where a majority of citizens are Jewish. According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the population in 2011 was 75.4% Jewish, 20.6% Arab, and 4.1% minority groups.[1] The religious affiliation of the Israeli population[vague] as of 2011 was 75.4% Jewish, 16.9% Muslim, 2.1% Christian, and 1.7% Druze, with the remaining 4.0% not classified by religion.[2]
Israel has no entrenched constitution, but freedom of religion is anchored in law. While the Basic Laws of Israel that serve in place of a constitution define the country as a "Jewish state," these Basic Laws, coupled with Knesset statutes, decisions of the Supreme Court of Israel, and various elements of the common law current in Israel, also protect free practice of religion in the country.[3][4] Legal accommodation of the non-Jewish communities follows the pattern and practice of the Ottoman and British administrations with some important modifications. Israeli law officially recognizes five religions, all belonging to the Abrahamic family of religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Druzeism and the Bahá'í Faith. Furthermore, the law formally recognizes ten separate sects of Christianity: the Roman, Armenian, Maronite, Greek, Syriac, and Chaldean Catholic Churches; the Eastern Orthodox Greek Orthodox Church; the Oriental Orthodox Syriac Orthodox Church; the Armenian Apostolic Church; and Anglicanism.[5] Members of unrecognized religions are free to practice their religion.[3]"





Stringsinger:"Propaganda instead of facts. The UN didn't know they were about to kick out the people who were displaced otherwise they might have reconsidered."

This statement is contrary to reality. Look at 1936 - 1939.

It is a lie.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:36 AM

Negated by the 1923 decision by the Mandate Power...

Negated? How so?

negate the formation of the Jewish Homeland

I'm doing no such thing. I'm asking you how "The Jewish Homeland" per "the treaty ending WW I" was defined & delineated & based on what evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:39 AM

FYI, about the mandate and UN declarations etc. I don't recognize the power of Britain or the UN to give away land that doesn't belong to them or indeed to meddle in the affairs of other states through the use of "declarations." History for the past 65 years, shows that Israelis do not put much store in UN declarations as well.

I do recognize the right and the power of people and countries to buy goods and services from whoever they please. Our carbonator is Primo, not soda stream.

I will never again rent a movie because Scarlett Johanson is the star as long as she supports the Palestinian aparthied. Small things I know, but more effective than mere talk.

I also recognize that Zionists, Christian or otherwise also have a right to vote wither their own pocketbooks.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:46 AM

Re: Theocracies

"ALL of (Vatican )City's actual citizens are Catholic as are all the places of worship."


Jack,

"The reasons for the mass immigration of pan Arab Jews to Israel, are myriad and extremely complex. Suffice it to say that you seem to be saying that the only reason for that migration is that the Jews were forced out of Egypt, or Jordan or Iraq and that they had no place to go. I know that they were recruited by Israel and that there were other factors. Rather than get into that. I prefer to let your challenge stand, unquestioned. "

Agreed, but so are the reasons that SOME of the Arab Muslims left Israel- A far larger percentage of Arab Muslims stayed in Israel than the number of Arab Jews who remained in Arab nations


"I don't mind discussing the issue as a favor to you. But it has to be with the understanding that I am not trying to change your mind and I am not trying to change yours and that we both know where we stand already."

I do not expect to change other's minds- most of those who support BDS do not seem willing to discuss reality, and many seem willing to apply their "fairness" standards to ONLY one side of the issue. But when I see a lie- ( statement contrary to reality, known to be false) presented, I will point it out.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM

do not seem willing to discuss reality, and many seem willing to apply their "fairness" standards to ONLY one side of the issue.

Hmmmm......

Bruce: do look in the mirror & encourage BoBad to do so as well.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:54 AM

Jack,

"FYI, about the mandate and UN declarations etc. I don't recognize the power of Britain or the UN to give away land that doesn't belong to them or indeed to meddle in the affairs of other states through the use of "declarations." History for the past 65 years, shows that Israelis do not put much store in UN declarations as well."

Once the ARABS refused to acknowledge the UN declaration of the state of Israel, AND THE UN STOOD BY WHEN THE ARAB LEAGUE ATTACKED, Israel had no reason to recognize later UN resolutions



"I do recognize the right and the power of people and countries to buy goods and services from whoever they please. Our carbonator is Primo, not soda stream."

I agree- but the selection to boycott ONLY the "Jewish" state, when other nations have done as bad or worse appears to reasonable people to be… anti-Jewish.



"I will never again rent a movie because Scarlett Johanson is the star as long as she supports the Palestinian aparthied. Small things I know, but more effective than mere talk."

Your choice.

"I also recognize that Zionists, Christian or otherwise also have a right to vote wither their own pocketbooks."

Exactly.

But to be consistent, BDS needs to be willing to boycott nations persecuting Jews, Christians, and Ba'hais. So far I have seen no indication of any targets other than Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM

"
"I also recognize that Zionists, Christian or otherwise also have a right to vote wither their own pocketbooks.""

BTW, this would include any efforts by Israel to blockade Gaza and other territories from commerce WITH ISRAEL. correct?

After all , all the Palestinian territories have borders with other nations ( Egypt, Jordan) so Irael should not be forced to finance those who have stated their goals are the destruction of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:00 PM

"I don't recognize the power of Britain or the UN to give away land that doesn't belong to them or indeed to meddle in the affairs of other states through the use of "declarations.""

So the UN does NOT have the right to tell Israel what to do with the West Bank???


It was acquired in a war- JUST as the Allied Powers acquired the lands of the Ottoman Empire and split them up into those countries that you accept all of save Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:03 PM

"
BTW, this would include any efforts by Israel to blockade Gaza and other territories from commerce WITH ISRAEL. correct?
"

You seem to be claiming that a boycott of goods and services exported to my country is the same as a military blockade of a concentration camp set up by the country that created that camp.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:23 PM

You mean it ain't, Jack?

Tthere ya go again,with "not ... willing to discuss reality, and many seem willing to apply their "fairness" standards to ONLY one side of the issue".

yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:35 PM

"You seem to be claiming that a boycott of goods and services exported to my country is the same as a military blockade of a concentration camp set up by the country that created that camp."


No, ++I++ am claiming that Gaza and the West Bank have a border with other countries, so Israel is under no obligation to allor transport THROUGH Israel for Palestinian goods in OR out.

Have you any evidence of this "concentration camp " besides Palestinian propaganda?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:16 PM

so Israel is under no obligation

Absolutely true- the Israeli government is under no OBLIGATION to act fairly, morally, justly, or even in accord with the humanitarian precepts of the Torah.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:27 PM

SO?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:34 PM

SO?

And therein lies the problem...........

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM

Since NO other nation is under that obligation, your singling out Israel for criticism is proof of your anti-Jewish bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:45 PM

Jesus (or Moses) wept.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:56 PM

Jesus would weep, at your attempts to justify your bigotry.

I do note that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?



77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"

Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:03 PM

Since NO other nation is under that obligation, your singling out Israel for criticism is proof of your anti-Jewish bigotry.

Forgot to thank you Bruce, for your tacit admission that the government of Israel is, in fact, engaged in immoral, unjust, unfair, anti-humanitarian activities, in contradiction and contravention of the teachings of the Torah.

AND that you have no problem with this.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:08 PM

Thank YOU for your tacit admission that you are a religious bight, and are engaged in a hate-campaign against Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:10 PM

And that you are proud of the fact that you hold Jews to standards you refuse to apply to any other group.

Your hate and bigotry is out in the open.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:11 PM

Look up boycott and blockade and get back to me OK?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:13 PM

Israel killing kids

This is what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:14 PM

The government of Israel is under NO obligation to engage in immoral, unjust, unfair, anti-humanitarian activities, in contradiction and contravention of the teachings of the Torah, either- However, YOU have given your tacit approval for any OTHER nation to act that way, as long as it not Jews being allowed to act in self-preservation.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:17 PM

Jack,

Fine, I mis-spoke.

Israel has the right to refuse to allow Palestinian goods and people in, through, or out of Israel, boycotting those peoples that have stated their goal is the destruction of the state of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM

Stringsinger,

And YOUR criticism of Hamas and Hezboallah for launching anti-personnel rockets aimed at civilian areas in Israel ( a war crime by all standards?

And your comment on the fact that Hezboallah has claimed to have over 100,000 rockets in Lebanon, in violation of the 2006 Truce terms? And have stated an intent to attack Israeli CIVILIANS with them?


Dead children are fine with you as long as they are Israelis.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:24 PM

Call it what you want, Gaza, Israel and the West Bank of the Jordon River are all the same place all subject to the military rule of the IDF. The Zionists did not clear the original inhabitants when they started to colonize and now it is too late.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:27 PM

But the Arabs Muslims DID clear off the Arab Jews and Christians from the West Bank when they took it militarily in 1948, so it is now OK for them to claim it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:37 PM

I think that the morality went out of this conflict long ago and the Zionists were heavily involved in that.

I don't think Israel, as it is today is geopolitically or democratically stable. As ethnic political divisions fade in importance, so will Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:44 PM

I respectfully disagree, both with your evaluation and your conclusions.

The destruction of Israel as a viable state will cause far more suffering in the region as the Sunnis and Shiites fight each other, and wipe out any other groups ( Ba'hai, Christian, Druze, etc).


Syrian Muslims over the last year have killed far more Arab Muslims than Israel has over the last 66 years.

A case could be made that JORDANIAN Muslims have killed more Palestinians than Israel has in total.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM

Bruce is apparently off his meds again, and is rapidly reverting to the old ranting, slobbering Bull####Bruce personna. Shame, that.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 05:44 PM

Syrian Muslims over the last year have killed far more Arab Muslims than Israel has over the last 66 years. A case could be made that JORDANIAN Muslims have killed more Palestinians than Israel has in total.

And thus, as far as you are concerned, that makes Israel's killing of Muslims and Palestinians perfectly all right.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

AIPAC down

AIPAC is losing ground.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 10:30 AM

One can only hope, Strings.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:36 AM

A must for Israeli atrocity apologists - I don't think.
From the Sunday Times Culture supplement:
"Every picture tells...
5 Broken Cameras (BBC4, 10.30pm)
In 2005, Emad Burnat, a Palestinian farmer living in the West Bank, bought a video camera to film his newborn fourth son. He also began filming his fellow villagers' demonstrations against the building of a barrier that cut them off from their land, which was given to Jewish settlers — protests that over five years would involve confrontations with Israeli troops, with activists killed or severely injured, and elicit support for their cause from politicians and foreign volunteers. By turns stirring and shocking, Burnat's remarkable video diary (co-directed by Guy Davidi) was nominated for the best documentary Oscar in 2012. John Dugdale and Helen Stewart"

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:41 AM

Sorry - omitted to say that the documentary is on BBC4 tomorrow night
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM

Let's call BS on the BDS

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:28 AM

Waste of time, I fear, Bobad. Everyone with a ½d-worth of sense will know that J Carroll & Greg F are Founder Members & Joint Presidents of the much revered [in some ◯s] MMMUPDCMWFS*.

~M~

*My·Mind's·Made·Up·Please·Don't·Confuse·Me·With·Facts Society.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:37 AM

...Which will be Carroll's cue, I daresay, for him to tell me yet again that he & I have nothing to say to one another: an astonishing piece of impertinence whose constant iteration has become a sort of tic of his. So I will point out, yet again, that if he considers himself to have nothing to say to me, that is his privilege; but it confers on him not the remotest right or authority to tell me, or to endeavour to control, to whom I have anything to say; the sole decision as to which shall remain with me, without the leave of him or anybody else.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

"There is no need to explain facts to people who clearly don't care about the truth and focus only on bigotry, lies, and anti-Semitic discrimination."

Let's call BS on the BDS

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 09:24 AM

Good luck with that Bobad.


I read your article.

"Russia is violating Human rights so Israel should be allowed to." is not an argument that sways my thinking. If I had a chance to buy Russian goods. I wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM

*My·Mind's·Made·Up·Please·Don't·Confuse·Me·With·Facts Society."
At least we express our opinions rather than have a couple of morons to take the flak while you stay back at back in the bunker keeping your mind unsullied by argument.
Must be reminiscent of Uni. days, having a couple of fags at your beck-and call again - yarroo, you beast, leggo my ear!!
"If I had a chance to buy Russian goods. I wouldn't"
How do you know you aren't Jack - Russia is on the side of the angels now.
trade
Bet you buy Chinese goods.
Yours as ever,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 09:48 AM

"Russia is violating Human rights so Israel should be allowed to."

You obviously didn't read the same article or are lying again. This is what it said:

"Last week a big chunk of the world sat glued to their TVs following the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia. Not a single country, or any individual athletes, chose to boycott the event. Even though we all know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the most atrocious human rights violations are taking place on a daily basis in that country.

So. While LGBT-activists were being abducted, raped and beaten in Russia, political activists around the world choose to focus their energy and resources on demonizing the one country in the Middle East where gay people can live freely, safely and openly?"

As is obvious to anyone with minimal comprehension he is pointing out that Israel, unlike Russia, is NOT violating human rights yet it is being vilified while other states that are, in fact egregiously violating human rights are ignored. But you knew that, didn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 10:17 AM

My·Mind's·Made·Up·Please·Don't·Confuse·Me·With·Facts Society

Time for BooBad & MGM to look in the mirror once again, methinks, being President and Corresponding Secretary of said society.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 11:08 AM

"President and Corresponding Secretary of said society."
Nah - Mike prefers to operate from behind the scene and Boo-Boo appears not to have the initiative to join anything without holding someone's hand - I don't think Yogi would have approved - he was a "good bear Mister Ranger".
As for him 'writing' (isn't that what secretaries are supposed to do) - cut-'n-pasting maybe!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:17 PM

"As is obvious to anyone with minimal comprehension he is pointing out that Israel, unlike Russia, is NOT violating human rights "

This conclusion operates under the premise that Palestinians are not human and therefore have no rights.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:36 PM

The Palestinians in Israel have the same rights as Israelis under the law but let's not let facts get in the way of reality as that would spoil the narrative of those who love to hate Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:50 PM

"Under The Law", Blacks in the U.S. had the same rights as Whites following the ratification of the 15th Amendment on February 3, 1870.

Care to try that again, there, BooBad?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM

"Under The Law", Blacks in the U.S. had the same rights as Whites following the ratification of the 15th Amendment on February 3, 1870."

And that has what to do with the Palestinians and other non-Jewish Israeli's having equal rights in Israel GooGuest?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 02:26 PM

"And that has what to do with the Palestinians and other non-Jewish Israeli's having equal rights in Israel"
Ignoring the situation in Israel, where even some of its own citizens have taken to describing it as an "Apartheid state" does not make your continuing unqualified claim anything other than a lie   
From - the 'Or report':
"Civil rights
Main article: Ethnic discrimination in IsraelDirected at Arabs
The Israeli Declaration of Independence stated that the State of Israel would ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex, and guaranteed freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.
While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:[182]
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/israel_studies/v011/11.2or.html

Published March 2011.
The definition of Israel as "the Jewish State" or "the State of the Jewish People" makes inequality a practical, political and ideological reality for Palestinian citizens of Israel.
The State of Israel, as an ethnocracy or "ethnic nationstate", is systematically failing to adopt effective measures to redress the gaps that exist between the Palestinian minority and the Jewish majority. By privileging Jewish citizens in many fields, the state actively preserves and even widens these gaps.

The inequality Report
"The Inequality Report details some of the main legal, political and policy structures that institutionalize and entrench discrimination against the Palestinian minority in Israel."
The Inequality Report

The last time I put up 'The Inequality Report' one of the 'usual suspects' braindead said there was too much to read; another said it couldn't be believed because "it was written by Arabs" - that is how "equal" these twots believe Arabs to be - they don't even believe their own lies.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM

The thing that really puzzles me is how Mr Carroll J contrives to stagger about the world so insouciantly, under the intolerable weight of that jumbo-size chip that he carries on his shoulder...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:43 PM

The speech that swayed the vote against BDS at UCLA.

Ben Shapiro

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:33 PM

The emotional breakdown of a UCLA student after the defeat of the anti-Israel BDS vote:

Waaaah!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:27 AM

"The thing that really puzzles me is how Mr Carroll "
Not the only thing that puzzles you obviously.
That you and your band of brother choose to ignore the facts of Israeli terrorism doesn't make them any less facts and only serves to underline your own positions as atrocity and ethic-cleansing deniers.
Name calling and insult hurling is no substitute for argument.
You appear to have inherited lack of self respect from your ward - that not -long-enough spoon again - sad!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM

Name calling and insult hurling is no substitute for argument.

You laughable hypocrite Jim!
No-one is more guilty of that than you!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:56 AM

No Keith
I have no compunction in giving my opinion of people like yourself (in fact, I quite enjoy doing so) but I never substitute that for argument.
I have just given three links to major examples of inequality in Israel; you, Bob Cherry and Jimminy Cricket choose to ignore those facts; you and Cherry Major hurl insults, Boo-Boo goes his own sweet way with his cut-'n-pastes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM

I ignore nothing as you know, Jim, & deplore Israel's actions as much as you. We don't have to go into all that again, becoz it would only be repetition, & you'll only start one of your endless 'lip-service' monologues which are the most boring thing since the works of bloody Brecht. The chip I referred to was your own repetitiveness in yet again having resorted to insulting mockery of the fact that I happen to have had a university education & you haven't ~~ on this occasion, I would add, having ignorantly confused such with a public school education*, which I didn't have.

~M~


*'fags' &c, which one doesn't get at university, as you well know so why go out of your way to appear more pig-ignorant than you actually are?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:57 AM

"I ignore nothing as you know, Jim, & deplore Israel's actions as much as you."
Yes - we know you don't like olive trees being cut down - which is about as serious an accusation as you have ever made of Israel.
You have allowed Keith the moron to make your case for you and leapt to his defence whenever he got into trouble
On occasion you have resorted suggesting that those of us who feel strongly about Israel's behaviour as anti-Semites and "Jew-baiters"
You are as sad a case as he is a disgusting one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:24 AM

Those olive-trees stuck in my craw as a peculiarly spiteful manifestation of an overall mistaken approach to the whole situation. I admit that they had a particularly symbolic significance to me; and I constantly refer to them as such, as an indicator of my complete withdrawal of any residual support or feeling of any sort of loyalty to Israel in its present avatar. I think they should be viewed as a sort of synecdoche for the unacceptability of Israel's activities.

But this in no way nullifies the undoubted fact that much expressed opposition to Israel is in fact a not particularly well-disguised form of antisemitism, as was recognised by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's 2005 working definition of antisemitism. In which context there are many who feel the terms of the vehement denunciations of the Carroll/Greg·F axis could be viewed as significantly suspect.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 06:25 AM

"Those olive-trees stuck in my craw as a peculiarly spiteful manifestation"
Thy offend me to but thay rate small against Sabra Shaitla, the Blockage, the use of chemical weapons.... all of which you have defended with either your total silence or your blanket support for Keith at the very least - praising with faint damns
I am well aware of the anti-Semitism that exists - the latest brand being to describe Israeli atrocities as "Jewish".
Rather than addressing supposed motives for criticism of Israel, why not try addressing the motives themselves - it would make a refreshing change?
"there are many who feel the terms of the vehement denunciations of the Carroll/Greg·F axis could be viewed as significantly suspect"
Actually, there aren't - just you, Keith, Boo Boo and Brucie - the sum total 'gang of four' who consistently defend these recognised atrocities and war crimes - you have the honour of being the first to have ever accused me of Anti - Semitism.
I've always considered it base cowardice to crouch behind six million dead to defend atrocities - as I said - lack of self respect
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 07:19 AM

It's Mulberry-Bush-time again.

I'm out.

שלום

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM

"I'm out"
In my recollection you've never been in
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:07 AM

"Under The Law", Blacks in the U.S. had the same rights as Whites following the ratification of the 15th Amendment on February 3, 1870."

And that has what to do with the Palestinians and other non-Jewish Israeli's having equal rights in Israel GooGuest?

If you're thick enough to have to ask what the difference is betweeen laws on the books and laws as implemented and enforced guess you're even more hopeless than folks think.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:31 AM

Just back in for a second in great concern!

Really worried!

Really alarmed!





Jim Carroll in imminent danger of










cutting himself severely on his razor-wit!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:40 AM

"I'm out"
In my recollection you've never been in
Jim Carroll
.,,.

I mean, really Jim, is that the best you can do?

How pathetic!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 11:55 AM

"How pathetic!"
My thoughts exactly - though probably not about the same subject
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

You have allowed Keith the moron
Keith, Boo Boo and
I have no compunction in giving my opinion of people like yourself (in fact, I quite enjoy doing so) but I never substitute that for argument.

Please tell us why you do insult people. It doesn't help your credibility. Many people might think it is ranting. It certainly is an expression of contempt.

You you feel that is appropriate in civil conversation. Don't you think it is not only rude to Keith and Bobad, but rude to anyone else who may be reading. I think the oppression of the Palestinian is a serious issue. I think it deserves to be discussed seriously and respectfully. How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM

Patheticer & patheticer.

Poor little Jim.

Still, won't do to mock the afflicted.

Tch! Tch!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.

77% Arab citizens wordwide, or just living in Israel? According to whom? And how was survey done?

Nice job dodging & weaving, by the way, but that still does not address the point of laws on the books vs. laws as enforced or not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM

I know it must suck when facts prove you wrong and expose the bigotry of your opinions but it's never too late to become enlightened.

The source of the survey has been posted more than once in the past so I'll leave it to you to make the effort to find it for yourself. I'll give you a hint though - "Coexistence in Israel". And don't forget to post the exact question asked once you find it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:07 PM

Nice job dodging & weaving, by the way,BooBad, but that still does not address the point of laws on the books vs. laws as enforced or not.

More later.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:29 PM

In point of fact, BooBad the survey you claim was done in 2008 by The Kennedy Center(plenty has happened in the last 5 years - got a more recent survey anywhere?) shows only an error message when your link is clicked, and it was posted exactly once by you in 2010. In fairness, you did post the same nonsense multipme times in the sme thread, but only the singlwe source, which has now mysteriously disappeared.

One of the response deserves to be re-visited, viz:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox - PM
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

Thank you Bobad.

That information supports my view exactly.

That the current Israeli administration rides roughshod, not only over residents of Gaza, but also ignores the views of many Israelis, including the views of many Israeli Jews.

It is also my view that the Israeli administration lies to Isrealis and non Israelis alike to justify its actions.

And another:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

Per Bobad:Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Not at all hard to understand - elementary patriotism would explain it - "This is my country - it is where I belong, and I refuse to be driven into exile".

Finally, I would once again recall to your mind U.S. history; this time the Antebellum South, where Negro slaves - a subject population- surveyed by white folks virtually universally claimed to be happy, well cared for, and that Ol' Massa was kindly.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM

RE: "plenty has happened in the last 5 years" above. my mistake.

My mistake. That should be corrected to "plenty has happened in the last 7 to 10 years"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM

Those posts you copied show that the posters didn't read the poll. I guess their research skills are as good as yours which would explain your misinformed opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:50 PM

C'mon Greggie do some work it'll be good practice for you - you might learn how to find information to inform your opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 09:07 PM

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 09:38 PM

It's for your own benefit Greggie, I'm trying to help you learn how to find information so you can have something useful to offer instead of ad hominem insults and name calling. Go ahead and give it a try, you can do it, I know you can.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:43 AM

Don't suppose for one minute any of the ethnic cleansers among us watched 'Five Broken Cameras' last night.
The residents of a small Palestinian village cut in half by an illegal fence - unarmed protesting villagers opposing armed settlers backed up by the Israeli Army using live rounds, gas grenades and eventually, gas missiles fired from helicopters to suppress the demonstrations.
After three years the villagers won their case in the courts and the fence was declared illegal; the settlers continued building and the soldiers went on protecting for another two years, then, after occupying the new houses that hd been built, they 'concede' removed part of the fence and 'allowed' the villages to return to some of their land.
Mike would have hated it - the settlers burnt olive trees on the land they returned!!!
Israel has become an apartheid state run by uniformed armed thugs - Nazi Germany in the sun.
Carry on ignoring Boo Boo - seig heil!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:10 AM

I found it unbearable, Jim. Tears in my eyes thruout. It was, as you say, the olive trees that carried the symbolic weight of the narrative. Can't yet bring self to say any more about it just now. Maybe later!.

~M~

You have, nevertheless, I would remind you, previously conceded the offensive inappropriateness of the use of the word 'Nazi" in this context. I never expected you'd remember, though. A dyed-in-the-wool member of any racist persuasion, including yours, doesn't change his spots. We both object to Israel's thoroughly obnoxious goings-on; but you in addition are an anti-semite I'm afraid, Jim. To cite yet again that Shaw character's locution: You think you're not, but you are. I remind you once more of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's 2005 statement on this precise manifestation of anti-semitism. Look it up -- and try to get something of it into that thick ☠ of yours!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 AM

The web is carrying numerous articles and comment pieces about the diminishment of AIPAC's influence over the current US administration. Another reason for me to 'fingers crossed' hope that Obama is proceeding successfully towards being a war-free US president worthy of that Nobel Peace Prize. Now if he could only stuff a fecking sock in that pugilistic loud-mouth Kerry's flapping gob!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM

Mike I can appreciate how upsetting your personal change of heart concerning Israel must be. I know a number of people of Jewish descent are challenged and aggrieved by the actions of the state of Israel. It must be the more painful to have cherished an ideal for a homeland for Jewish people for so many decades, only to have it ruined in the face of harsh reality. I think however you are quite the honourable man, to acknowledge your change of heart and the reasoning behind it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:26 AM

Thank you CS. That is greatly appreciated.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM

Sorry Mike - I really did not mean offence to you or anybody.
I came away from the film angry and saddened - tears as well.
The sight of uniformed and armed soldiers backing up an illegal eviction of villagers, even after the court had ruled it illegal still leaves me shaking.
It has become a State set on establishing itself as a singl ethnic one.
It was an ex-head of the Israeli security services who stated on camera last year that what was happening in Israel today was comparable with Nazi Germany (see The Gatekeepers)
I was raised in a family that fully supported the Israeli State; I am glad that those who spent time and energy actually fighting anti-Semitism (my Grandmother was prosecuted for throwing a stone at a Blackshirt at an open-air meeting), didn't live to see what Israel has become.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

A more balanced review of the film.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/5-Broken-Cameras

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM

Another.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/02/18/fairy-tales-wont-bring-peace-five-broken-cameras-and-the-palestinian-farce/

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM

The Jerusalem Post - my apologies?
The film must have been a load of shit in that case.
All the points in the German paper were fully covered by the film itself
The film was not about Palestine - it was about the effects of an apartheid ethnic cleansing policy has on ordinary human beings.
One of the most telling moments was the mistrust shown towards Palestinian politicians who muscled in on the press interviews.
You can dredge up any dissenting reviews you wish - the film said it all
It is a superbly honest film and has been recognised as such with world-wide acclaim

"5 Broken Cameras" has been screened at a number of film festivals and won the award for best Israeli documentary at the 2012 Jerusalem Film Festival. It also took the prize for best documentary directing in the World Cinema category at the Sundance Film Festival.
It was nominated for an Academy Award in the documentary feature category this year, but lost to "Searching for Sugarman.""
Take your ethnic cleansing apologisms elsewhere you deplorable toe-rag.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

No Israeli view may be heard?
What are you afraid of hearing Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM

The use of the term "anti-semite" is an epithet used by those who are neither Jewish or knowledgeable about what the term means; Arabs are a Semitic tribe and hence any anti-Arab reference could be classified as "anti-Semitic". At one point in Israeli history, Palestinians and Israeli's cooperated in the growing and distribution of the Joffa oranges acknowledged by the world. Then Zionism took root and bullied the Palestinians, cutting off their contributions to the Israeli State.

The corollary to the Zionism of Israel is the "Manifest Destiny" in the United States responsible for the genocide of the Native American, an ungrateful act in that the Native Americans showed the "invaders" how to employ agricultural farming techniques for their survival.

The hurling of the stupid "anti-semite" accusation belies the low level of intelligence of those who use it, those who would call people "communists" or "terrorists" without remorse and showing self-righteous hypocrisy as persecutors themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

From the Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.
    Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

Stringsinger: Don't be so disingenuous, it's beneath you. You know perfectly well that the term 'antisemitism' doesn't subsume animosity towards Arabs, whatever pedanticisms as to their ethnicity might be adduced.

Jim: Thank you for your moderate response to my perhaps overstated animadversions. But the hackles cannot be restrained from rising at that o-so-tempting but facile & best-resisted 'Nazi' comparison, which is, as above-cited protocols state, one of the generally regarded as infallible litmus tests for the presence of that virus. [My science is as confused as my metaphors; but you know what I mean!]

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM

No apology needed Mike - it was a knee-jerk reaction on my part to revert to old habits.
I apologise in advance if it should happen again, which is quite possible if Keith keeps up his deplorable behaviour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM

"I am glad that those who spent time and energy actually fighting anti-Semitism (my Grandmother was prosecuted for throwing a stone at a Blackshirt at an open-air meeting), didn't live to see what Israel has become.
Jim Carroll"
.,,.
Something we can share there, Jim. I'm glad my grandmother didn't either.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM

It's for your own benefit Greggie, & etc.

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

Deplorable behaviour!?

I just linked to an Israeli review, and a Jewish American review.
What is to deplore?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 12:37 PM

MgM, what I know of the term anti-semitism is that it is used as a catch-all to justify a reaction toward those who do not agree with Israeli policies regarding the subjugation of Palestinians and this accusation in itself is disingenuous and makes a mockery of the "holocaust".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 01:08 PM

"Deplorable behaviour!?"
sorry - didn't give the full sentence - long term, intensive and dishonest behaviour
Yes - the Israelis do have a right to be listened to - the same rights afforded to any criminal in the dock - on the understanding that their past record will be taken into consideration.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel. "

Holding all Jews responsible is anti-Jewish (I use that word out of deference to Frank's opinion on the word "anti-semitic")

But it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish.

We can argue semitic semantics until the cows come home. The fact remains that the self described Jewish State kills people for land.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

GUEST ~~ I in no way deny that it can indeed be a catch-all defence. I hold no brief for such an attitude. There are certain most justifiable criticisms of Israel to be made, and a great deal [far too much, indeed] in its conduct to deplore.

But this is in no way excludes the strong possibility that much of such criticism is principally a cover for antisemitism nevertheless ~~ a 'respectable' way in which such racist views may be disguised for acceptability. The Protocols cited nine posts back at 09.08 can be of much assistance in recognising this distinction.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:58 PM

On learning about Semitic races, I now tend to find the phrase "anti-Semitic" to be a somewhat divisive and obfuscatory creation, though I will use it where precedent demands.

I realise that it has *become* the term meaning "anti-Jewish" but nevertheless I think - considering the word Semite applies to a much broader race of people other than those of the Jewish religion - it would be preferable if it hadn't been adopted, and I also think it would be better if phased out.

I also think intentionally provocative analogues with Nazi Germany are unhelpful, as they can only generate greater intransigence and reaction from those who will be inflamed by such a comparison. A better contemporary equivalence would be South Africa IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:08 PM

But it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish.


Not at all - there are plenty of millenial "Christians"[sic] especially in the U.S. as well as self-serving U.S. politicians who are partly responsible.

And people with Bobad's outlook and viewpoint are also partly responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM

Greg the Christian Zionists support Israel but I believe they don't give the orders to oppress and kill and they don't drive the tanks and bulldozers.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:39 PM

The US has politically intervened via a veto, every time a NATO resolution tried to control the Israeli land grab. The US is every bit as implicated in each settlement as Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM

My last post: Responding to "it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:11 PM

"And people with Bobad's outlook and viewpoint are also partly responsible."

Now you're really losing it - please seek help for your own good.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 PM

the Christian Zionists support Israel but I believe they don't give the orders to oppress and kill and they don't drive the tanks and bulldozers.

Not directly, but they DO support, enable and finance those who give the orders to oppress and kill and drive the tanks and bulldozers.

Thus they are culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:12 PM

Now you're really losing it - please seek help for your own good.

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM

Insecurity - The need to insult others in order to feel good about yourself

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:36 PM

Culpable? Yeah, Enablers? yes. Aiders and abettors? Uh huh.

Responsible? No. Not as I meant it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM

So how do you define "responsibility", Jack?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:25 PM

Insecurity - The need to insult others in order to feel good about yourself

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:36 PM

"but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" "

Yes I have - more than once - you just don't want to do the legwork to find it (as expected) and I'm not going to do it for you but I'll give you another tip though - GOOGLE (it's a search engine) - that's all I'm going to say - have at it and don't forget to post the exact question asked in the survey when you find it.

Oh and I'm an understanding kind of guy so if you need any help with your "problem" I'm all ears - here to help without prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM

So how do you define "responsibility", Jack?

The people who give the orders and the people who carry them out.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM

Uh- BooBad- your link from 2010 don't work. Web searches don't turn it up, either.

In addition that's only one item - you haven't addressed any other points raised.

So, one more time:

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:56 PM

So Greggie I was able to find it again without the links so I'm sure you can too - just keep on truckin'.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 08:03 AM

GregF,

Still waiting for your answers…



I do note that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?



77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"

Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 08:23 AM

IDF intercepts major Iranian weapons shipment to Gaza

The Times of Israel

No BDS against Iran I note.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM

Iran just persecutes Jews , Christians, and Ba'hai. No reason for the BDS crowd to comment on THAT.

They think that is just fine, as long as the Jews are ethnically cleansed like from the West Bank in 1948 to 1967, and from most of the Arab nations post 1948 to the present.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

Take your meds, Bruce.

Keep shuckin' & jivin', BooBad

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:19 AM

As I expected, GregF continues to demand special rules for what he supports, and requires anyone who disagrees to comply with what he will not do himself.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:29 AM

Take your meds, Bruce. Please. You're hallucinating.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:36 AM

Answer my questions, or admit you are just a bigot.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 03:48 PM

The expulsion of Jewish minorities from other countries was criminal, and should obviously be reversed. However in very large part this happened in the wake of the expulsion of the majority Palestinian population of what became Israel. Without that precipitating factor there is no reason to believe it would have happened.

Any right of return for Palestinians should be accompanied by a similar right of return for Jews who see living in Israel as exile from other countries. So far as I know this demand has never been put on the table in negotiations, and it surely should be.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 07:04 PM

"Iran just persecutes Jews , Christians, and Ba'hai. No reason for the BDS crowd to comment on THAT. "




Iran has been subject to BDS since 1979.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:50 AM

"Answer my questions, or admit you are just a bigot."
No less a bigot than those who continue to describe the Crimes of Israel as "Jewish"
The only way for people like Brucie and his little band of fanatics to continue their fanaticism is to ignore the fats of what has happened and is still happening - no reference to Israeli behaviour, just the continuance of old wars - lethally detrimental to Jews and non-Jews alike.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:45 AM

McGrath,
Without that precipitating factor there is no reason to believe it would have happened.

An alternative view.
"It is the custom to say that Zionism was responsible for this (expulsion) development. However, the region's anti-Semitism would have developed even without the rise of the state of Israel because of Arab-Islamic nationalism, which resulted in xenophobia. The fact that these events have been obscured has served in the campaign to delegitimize Israel, and therefore to a large extent, the same population that suffered this oppression. The fate of Palestinian refugees, their proclaimed innocence, and the injustice they endured form the main thrust of this delegitimization. The Jewish refugees have suffered more than the Palestinian refugees and undergone greater spoliations. However, they became citizens of the countries of refuge, especially Israel and France, while Palestinians were ostracized from the Arab nations. -
http://jcpa.org/article/the-expulsion-of-the-jews-from-muslim-countries-1920-1970-a-history-of-ongoing-cruelty-and-discriminatio

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 07:22 AM

"...would have developed even without the rise of the state of Israel because of Arab-Islamic nationalism..." In the opinion of the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs, which would not appear a wholly dispassionate organisation.

A hypothetical speculation like that cannot be disproved. But to be. In any way persuasive it would need some pretty strong evidence. The history of anti-semitism linked to nationalism does not have an equivalent in Islamic history, prior to the colonial experience of European settlement and takeover in the Palestinian region.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 07:41 AM

So it's the Jews that are responsible for Muslim antisemitism - good to know that.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

Of course not dispassionate, but Israeli views are still valid.

I put it up as an alternative view.
Are you one of those who object to the views of Israelis being heard?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 08:47 AM

"I put it up as an alternative view."
You always do -
Israel puts its point of view with guns, chemical weapons, blockades, Berlin-type walls and denials - you just offer their denials.
You've had the reports on equality (the Or report was from Israel itself), you've had the filmed evidence, you've had researched and documented accounts of Israeli war crimes and atrocities, you even have over 100 vetoes protecting Israel from her crimes - all you have ever offered in return is Israel's denials.
Wouldn't stand up in any court
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM

Are you one of those who object to the views of Israelis being heard?

Not at all. I object to bullshit being claimed as fact.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 10:02 AM

And I object to your proclamation that it is bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM

And I object to your proclamation that it is bullshit.

By all means, object all you want. But where's your evidence?

Now, back to your shucking and jiving, BooBad - putting aside the "survey" for the time being (since its results are a decade out of date in any case) - you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions.

As anticipated.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 10:56 AM

"By all means, object all you want. But where's your evidence?"

My evidence is the same as what you provided in your proclamation.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 11:01 AM

As for your points and questions, whatever they may be, I proclaim them to be bullshit also.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM

"I proclaim them to be bullshit also."
A proclaimer!!!
Sounds the same as being infallible like Keith?
Didn't thik you'd even begin to respond to the facts put before yo.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 01:16 PM

I've started my own BDS movement. It's known as the Bullshit Detection System and It's gathering weight. I'll be monitoring your posts so be sure to get your facts straight or your posts will be boycotted.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 02:10 PM

As for your points and questions, whatever they may be, I proclaim them to be bullshit also.

Well, BooBad, the points and questions are posted a short while back in this thread - a lot more readily accessible than your obscure post about the "survey"[sic] from 2010. I'm sure if you follow your own advice you can readily turn them up.

As for "proclaiming them (e.g. the points and questions) to be bullshit", just more of your usual shucking and jiving.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:06 PM

"I've started my own BDS movement. It's known as the Bullshit Detection System and It's gathering weigh"
You have long been a leading member of the LITF, (Let's ignore the facts) club - it's why nobody takes you seriously little Boo Boo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM

Well I'm definitely not going to wade back through your posts to find it - that wouldn't be good for my health (if you get my drift). But if I recall you were inventing another one of your patented false equivalencies to try and make a claim against non Jews having equal rights in Israel but as you didn't provide any evidence for that it was merely your opinion, and we all know about opinions....don't we.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:31 PM

WARNING......the post previous to my last one has set off my BDS alarm.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM

Well I'm definitely not going to wade back through your posts to find it...

If directed at me, BooBad, such "wading" is exactly what you expected and enjoined MJEto in search of your postings up to 5 years ago - not just in this currebt thread- instead of supplying any facts; but of course you are exempt from your own strictures.

Yet another example of your shucking, jiving & bullshitting and general 'do as I say not as I do' disregard for the facts and of reality.

As expected.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:46 PM

"such "wading" is exactly what you expected and enjoined MJEto in search of your postings up to 5 years ago"

Not at all I told you that it's on the web and gave you the name of it - your ineptitude is not my fault but I am willing to give you search advice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:51 PM

More than 50 discriminatory laws

http://adalah.org/eng/Articles/1771/Discriminatory-Laws

http://adalah.org/eng/Israeli-Discriminatory-Law-Database

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:21 PM

Not at all I told you that it's on the web and gave you the name of it - your ineptitude is not my fault but I am willing to give you search advice.

Yeah, right.

HOWEVER still more shucking & jiving & you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions.

As anticipated.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:35 PM

"you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions."

Yes I did in the second sentence of my post of 06 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM which you must have missed.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:54 PM

Yes I did in the second sentence of my post of 06 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM which you must have missed.

Oh really? No so any sentient being would notice; no answers or responsed whatsoever.

Just more shucking & jiving & you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions.

As anticipated.

Again.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:57 PM

"Oh really? No so any sentient being would notice; no answers or responsed whatsoever."

OK if I have to spell it out for you - my answer is that that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 06:09 PM

OK if I have to spell it out for you - my answer is that that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

AND that you have no facts to contradict it.

Thanks.

Now, moving along.......

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 06:32 PM

"AND that you have no facts to contradict it."

No, you stated the opinion without any supporting evidence, I didn't contradict it because it is just an opinion.

Over and out.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 09:41 PM

And so it gets back to insults and knockabout rubbish.

Why not carry on an actual discussion, and look to find any points of agreement as well as disagreement?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM

Why not carry on an actual discussion,

Been trying for quite a while, Kevin - but Bobad refuses to speak to the several issues raised.

So best I stop trying.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM

GregF,

Still waiting for your answers…



I do note that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?



77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"

Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM

Bruce, if you have any actual questions rather than thinly disguised polemics, do let me know.

You're also "assuming facts not in evidence" - or hallucinating. Are you taking your meds?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM

GregF,

DIRECT QUESTIONS:

1. Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?

Yes or no, feel free to explain your reasons.



2. STATEMENT OF VERIFIED FACT: 77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"
Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League.

QUESTION: Shouldn't we go back to them?

Yes or no, feel free to explain your reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 01:45 PM

More polemics & rhetorical questions, Bruce. Up your dosage.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 01:59 PM

I give you questions, and you attack me rather than answer them.

That says a LOT about you, and the opinions that you are supporting.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 02:04 PM

STATEMENT OF VERIFIED FACT: 77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"
Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League.

QUESTION: Shouldn't we go back to them, rather than the so-called "1967" borders that were the result of truce lines from the 1948 war?

Yes or no, feel free to explain your reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 07:37 PM

Israelis who are living in exile in Israel should of course be free to return to the countries from which they were exiled. The government of Israel should be pressing for this to be agreed, and The governments of such countries, as well as Palestinians, should be supporting them in this.

So far as I am aware this has not happened.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 08:21 PM

A return to those borders might make a lot of sense, bruce. There was of course no suggestion on either side at that time that the Muslim and Christian residents of the area identified as available for Jewish immigrants should be expected to be displaced.   A united Israel/Palestine shared by both peoples was anticipated, and there is a great deal to be said for such an outcome, if it could be achieved.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 07:09 AM

One wonders how any of these historical arguments should apply to the Native Americans, or the Maoris, or the Australian Aborigines - if at all, and if not, why not?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM

Bruce, If Israel wants to use the borders of the mandate, its fine by me, as long as everyone in those borders has the same civil rights and voting rights.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:08 AM

"As Amos Oz once aptly observed: the walls of his grandparents Europe were covered with graffiti saying "Jews, go to Palestine." Now they say, "Jews, get out of Palestine"—by which is meant Israel. Who do these Western European bigots think they're fooling? Only fools who want to be fooled in the interest of denying that they are manifesting new variations on their grandparent's old biases."


Some hard questions about the Western European double standard against Israel

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:28 AM

"A united Israel/Palestine shared by both peoples was anticipated,"

False statement.

FACT: The 1923 formation of TransJordan out of 77+% of the Mandate Palestine SPECIFICALLY prohibited Jew from owning land, or settling in that portion of the Mandate.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

I very much doubt if any nation would welcome war criminals into its borders
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM

"I very much doubt if any nation would welcome war criminals into its borders"


Yet you expect Israel to accept Palestinians who have been shown to violate the Geneva Conventions time after time?



Oh, that's right- YOU consider that only JEWS can be "war criminals"


Or are you saying that PALESTINIANS should not be allowed to enter Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM

"Yet you expect Israel to accept Palestinians..."
Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so
Israel has broken human rights laws time after time - they have been protected from international condemnation by U,S. vetoes on over 100 occasions
They facilitated the slaughter of 3,500 unarmed refugees
They are ethnically cleansing the area to create a 'Jews only' state
They are forcibly moving entire communities into ghettoes
Their continued development of settlements has all but killed any chance of peace in the area.
At best, you are saying that they are all as bad as one another
Is that your point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

And by the way - you are still referring to the crimes of the Israeli regime as "Jewish" - which makes you an Anti-Semite
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 11:53 AM

I disagree with your statements- they are your opinion, and not all statements of fact.

The launching of antipersonnel rockets at civilian areas BY THE PALESTINIANS is an acknowledged war crime.


If territory taken in war is illegal, then the West Bank, taken from Mandate Palestine territory by the Arab League IN WAR in 1948 is the legal property of the successor state to Mandate Palestine, Israel. The FACT that it was rendered "JEW Free" by the Arab occupiers after 1948 seems to have been ignored.


Arab Muslims have greater rights in Israel than Jews OR Christians have in ANY Arab nation.


Yet you seem to focus only on Israel- it looks like you have a little bias, which I can only attribute to religious bigotry, since all peoples in that region are racially related.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

All your accusations are disputed Jim, but this one I think you made up by yourself.
"Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so."
Please explain about the slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:16 PM

"All your accusations are disputed Jim, but this one I think you made up by yourself."
Only by you and other ethnic cleanser supporters Keith - three and a half thousand refugees were slaughtered at Sabra/Shatila to start with - doen't take all the other massacres into account - you have made up a defence for all those - which is the only "invention" here.
"I disagree with your statements- they are your opinion, and not all statements of fact"
Not opinion Brucie - facts defended by United Nations vetoes - I suppose they are all Anti-Semites, unlike your good self who continues to accuse all Jews of Israeli war crimes!!
Even the heads of the Israeli Security Service put their hands up to some of the crimes - Anti-Semites too, no doubt!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:25 PM

Well, Jimmy,

When you hold ALL parties responsible for their actions, an not just Israel, you might be able to put forward your arguments as to the validity of those accusations. Until then, you show a bias.






Why do you give 640,000 Arab Muslim refugees greater rights than you do 820,000 Arab Jews?


Why do you insist on borders determined by MILITARY action in 1948, and deny those determined by military action in 1967?


Why do you demand that Israel abide by rules you do not apply to ANY other nation?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM

"When you hold ALL parties responsible for their actions,"
I do Brucie (don't mind Jimmy, though I prefer it with a Y) - I have no brief for any politician and condemn out offhand all atrocities carried out in the name of religion.
You, on the other hand, defend atrocities by Israel, while not only blaming all Palestinians for what their leaders do, but telling those same people they have no right to be where they are.
I would like to see peace in the Middle East - you on the other hand say there can be no peace until all Arabs succumb to to all Israeli demands.
I support the present (floundering) peace talks - you on the other hand give your wholehearted support to every Israeli abuse that has led those talks to the point of destruction.
I blame the Israeli regime - you blame the Palestinian people.
I identify the war criminals as the Israeli regime - you identify them as being "Jews" - making Sabra/Shatila and the like "Jewish" crimes.
I don't give any people rights over any other - I object to the continuing occupation of land that has been taken by force and can only settled peaceably by negotiation.
I have no reason to invalidate my accusations - they have been validadted by the United Nations and quashed by the United States veto.
Validation for those crimes is long established and has been acknowledged by Israelis and non-Israelis alike including members of the Israeli Security forces - I ask again Anti-Semites?
Now answer my pints and don't you dare start demanding answers before you do so.
Yours
Jimmy Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:35 PM

Sabra and Shatila.
Nothing to do with occupied territories, and Arab on Arab violence anyway.

"Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so."

Who are these thousands of non comabatants slaughtered to occupy land?
You made it up Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 04:21 AM

"Nothing to do with occupied territories, and Arab on Arab violence anyway."
Everything to do with the predatory and murderous nature of the Israeli regime
I made nothing up - massacres of Palestinian settlers began as the British were leaving Palestine - British soldiers reported the sounds of the grenades being thrown into occupied homes to clar villages ready for occupation - but then again - you've already described British soldiers as liars, so that doesn't matter to you.
Doesn't matter anyway - it's all a matter of record, around 800 civilians and prisoners of war were massacres by Israeli troops before Israel even got started.
You, of all people, are the last person in the position to accuse anybody of making things up - not with your running record.
Jim Carroll
Israeli Massacres
More Israeli Massacres

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:01 AM

So this is made up,
"Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so."

Or, was there slaughter of thousands of non combatants to illegally occupy some Palestinian land?

Of course not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:14 AM

When you hold ALL parties responsible for their actions, an not just Israel,

Bruce, are you really so deluded that you cannot realize that you are constantly doing, in reverse, what you rant and rave and accuse other folks of, by giving the Government of Israel a pass and not holding it responsible for doing what you accuse other parties of?

So, are you blind, confused, or are you dissembling?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM

"Or, was there slaughter of thousands of non combatants to illegally occupy some Palestinian land?"
Both
Incursions into Palestine, slaughter of refugees, deleiberately causing the deaths of nomadic tribes by depriving them of the essentials of existence (not to mention the use of chemicals on their homes), indiscriminate use of heavy artillery on civilian ares, continuing depriving of Palestinians of food, medicine, equipment essential to livelihood and day-to-day living..... not to mention actions that have slowed down peace negations to a virtual halt - all of these Israel has been condemned for and in each case, the United States have blocked them being brought to justice for - thousands of lives - nothing invented unless the civilised world has invented them.
Even its own ex-security service head have fessed up to these having taken place - are they 'anti-Semites' d'you think.
Shitbag ethnic cleansers like anti Semites like you and Brucie defend them, but neither of you fall into the catergory of 'civilised'.
I'm glad we agree that Israelis slaughtered non-combatants to occupy Palestinian lands though - but there again, how can you deny history - whoops - forgot who I was addressing fotr a moment, that's what you do. isn't it?      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 05:45 AM

"Incursions into Palestine,"
Driving back invading armies.

" slaughter of refugees,"
Not true.

" deleiberately causing the deaths of nomadic tribes by depriving them of the essentials of existence"

Israeli Bedouin have the fastest growing population in the world!

"indiscriminate use of heavy artillery on civilian ares,"

Never happened

" continuing depriving of Palestinians of food, medicine, equipment essential to livelihood and day-to-day living..... "
Made up.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM

You can deny all these until your red-neck explodes - they are all on record, have been condemned, confirmed by neutral observers and the U.N. and only denied by Israelis and their supporters - it's all in the book - but you don't read them, do you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:44 PM

http://come-to-think.livejournal.com/tag/zionism

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 10:36 PM

The 1923 partition, as I remarked Bruce, envisaged that the area not separated as Transjordan, that is to say, west of the Jordan, while allowing European Settlements by Jewish immigrants would also continue to be occupied by the existing Muslim and Christian inhabitants, resulting in a shared Palestine/Israel, call it whatever the inhabitants wished to call it.

If it were possible to return to that, as You appear to suggest Bruce, that could well be the best thing. However there would be a lot of opposition to that especially from those who would oppose a state which was not defined in a sectarian way and dominated by a particular ethnic group.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM

Young Isaelis won't serve

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

Conscientious objection to military service in Israel:
an unrecognised human right
Report for the Human Rights Committee in relation to Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

The procedures governing the hearing and deciding of cases of conscientious objectors are unfair and unknown (to the public).

(A violation of human rights.)

The imprisonment of (male) conscientious objectors is a violation of the human rights to conscientious objection, derived from art 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

(Some democracy.)

The legislation on exemption of religious women is based on Jewish tradition, which does not permit daughters either to stray from their father's authority or to live in a mixed-gender society. Military service by women would conflict with both these proscriptions, hence with the traditional religious way of life[17].

(Israel is a sexist theocracy.)

        •        At present the ongoing attempt to force conscientious objectors into betraying or changing their convictions by means of escalating the tactic of repeated imprisonment is of major concern. This is in breach of article 14, paragraph 7, of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and contrary to Commission on Human Rights resolution 2002/45.

(Imprisonment of this kind is a tactic of a totalitarian regime.)



Jewish male scholars studying in a yeshiva (religious school) are granted exemption or automatic deferral until they are past military service age. There is an arrangement whereby they can study while in the armed forces. Druze male religious scholars too are exempt[10].

(Orthodox Judaism runs Israel.)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:30 AM

From Tuesday's Irish Times
Jim Carroll
BESIEGED BEDOUIN CAMP A MICROCOSM OF ISRAELI OCCUPATION AND SETTLEMENT POLICY

RAY MURPHY LETTER FROM RAMALLAH, IRISH TIMES, TUESDAY 19TH MARCH.
PALESTINIAN FARMERS' ACCESS TO LAND CURBED AS JEWISH SETTLEMENTS EXPAND.
Sulaiman is a 75-year-old sheikh, or camp elder, in a Bedouin camp in the south Hebron hills over an hour's drive from Ramallah in the so-called West Bank of Palestine.
This is an area referred to by John Kerry as having potential to be part of a future land swap, a reference to the Palestinian Authority and Israel agreeing to exchange land to accommo¬date illegal settlements as part of a peace agreement.
On a field trip there to observe the impact of Israeli settlement policy I found myself in a nearby Bedouin camp after our car broke down. Palestinians told me the Bedouin chose this way of life, but I was not convinced.
These Bedouin came here after fleeing their land around Beersheba soon after the state of Israel was founded in 1948. Unlike most Bedouin, they paid for the land with camels and have been there since. The Bedouin seemed to cling to the hillside, and their camp even had a woman living in a cave. In the 1980s settlers moved in alongside the camp and the settlement has expanded continuously since then.
Here is a microcosm of the implications of the Israeli occupation and settlement policy. Sulaiman is passionate and animated when outlining the daily obstacles to living in a specially designated zone by the Israeli military. We want to live in peace and buried the guns with Arafat, he says.
He asks if the British govern¬ment will give them a home in England, as historically it is responsible for the predica¬ment of the Palestinians.
Poor accommodation
The camp comprises a few temporary structures and poor quality accommodation, including what looks like a large shed, funded by Irish Aid. There were also solar panels supported by Irish Aid that provide electricity to the camp.
These people own a few miserable-looking sheep and goats, and the shelters they live in. Yet they are under constant pressure to move. Despite the obstacles, they are determined to remain and preserve their way of life. This is a lifestyle choice for these formerly nomadic people.
As this is an Israeli military restricted zone, anything built without permission will be demolished or removed. This even includes outside toilet facilities and children's playground equipment provided by international aid organisations.
A specially built toilet for the disabled nephew of Sulaiman was removed in the middle of the night.
Braindamaged
His nephew was brain dam¬aged during a confrontation with Israeli security forces about four years ago when he tried to stop them demolishing the traditional clay cooker used by the Bedouin for baking, called a Tamboun. This is an enclosed cooker fuelled by dried animal waste that is usually kept lit all day.
One of the settler families has sued Sulaiman in the Israeli civil courts seeking substantial damages for the nuisance created by the smoke from the camp Tamboun. The court document served on Sulaiman is in Hebrew.
Israeli activists who regular¬ly come to the camp to monitor the situation and lend support have helped with translation and advice. They too are often attacked by the settlers. .
Violence against Palestini¬ans from Israeli settlers is an increasing problem in the West Bank. On a previous visit to the city of Nablus and its hinter¬land, I experienced this first hand.
Israeli authorities are threatening to relocate thou¬sands of Bedouin. The Israeli defence ministry is in the process of legalising another illegal outpost in the area to create a chain of settlements.
Haartez, the Israeli daily newspaper, reported that the gradual expansion of the residential and agricultural areas of Jewish settlements has been accompanied by well-doc¬umented efforts by settlers to block access by Palestinian farmers and shepherds to more and more of their land.
I thank Sulaiman for sharing his experience and his hospitali¬ty and promise to return.
Not forgotten
He described himself as a simple illiterate Bedouin and thanked us for our concern. He demonstrates you don't need a formal education to be articu¬late and compelling in arguing a case.
He said it helped to know that they are not forgotten and it gave him strength to endure.
Back on the road hitching a lift to the nearest village to catch a bus to Ramallah, Sulaiman's predicament and spirit remind me why I had come to Palestine in the first place.
Meanwhile the peace negotiations continue and no one I meet, Israeli or Palestini¬an, is optimistic.
Prof Ray Murphy of the Irish Centre for Human Rights, NUI Galway, is a visiting scholar with Al-Haq, a Palestinian Human Rights Organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:33 PM

The dictator Netanyahu still maintains his iron heel over rational thinking Israelis, who,
realizing that their country is in peril from their government, speak out at the injustices inflicted on the Palestinian people, while Bibi spouts lies about the BDS and attempts to arm twist the public in accordance with the toady followers in AIPAC.

The only solution for Palestinians is to adopt a politically defiant non-violent campaign against Israel including the boycott of West Bank Settlement industrial products such as Soda Stream and Sabra condiments.

Shame on Scarlett Johansson for playing into the hands of a corrupt Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:54 PM

"The only solution"
Not the "only" solution - if the U.S. would stop supporting Israeli atrocities with its veto (and the apologists stopped arguing on their behalf), perhaps the Israeli people might view the thugs in charge in a different light.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:40 PM

Committed nonviolence has the potential to change those kind of things and has far more chance of winning a future worth living than the kind of violent resistance that the authorities know how to deal with. There is a kind of collusion between the advocates of violence on both sides, they serve to justify each other.

But committed nonviolence is very hard indeed, when it is faced by those determined to break it brutally. It involves people having their lives damaged, and it involves dying.

Recently I saw the film 5 Broken Cameras, which brings that very much home. It tells the story of a nonviolent struggle carried on over years by a palestinian village facing the encroaching wall and an illegal settlement. It is particularly heart breaking, because you get to know the people, and those killed are people you have grown to respect and admire, and wonder at their courage.   Here is a link to the film on Youtube.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:22 PM

"Sabra and Shatila.
Nothing to do with occupied territories, and Arab on Arab violence anyway."

Those Arab Phalangists were put into Sabra/Shatila by the IDF. At the very least they facilitated the massacre, at most they actively encouraged it.

And the only argument you can produce against that is "Israel denies it".

Mandy Rice-Davies!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:36 AM

troubadour, we have debated that incident in excruciating, minute detail.
Israel's version of events stands up to scrutiny.
You dismiss it why?

And why do you never express views about the other Arab on Arab massacres at those same refugee camps, and other such camps like the terrible scenes we saw a few weeks ago at Palestinian camps in Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:39 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/queue-food-syria-yarmouk-camp-desperation-refugees

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:55 AM

"Filippo Grandi, the head of UNRWA, described the camp as a ghost town after visiting this week. "The devastation is unbelievable. There is not one single building that I have seen that is not an empty shell by now. They're all blackened by smoke," he told reporters.

He said he was even more shocked by the camp's residents, who flooded towards aid distribution points. "It's like the appearance of ghosts. These are people who have not been out of there, that have been trapped in there not only without food, medicines, clean water – all the basics – but also probably completely subjected to fear because there was fierce fighting … They can hardly speak. I tried to speak to many of them, and they all tell the same stories of complete deprivation.""

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:28 AM

"Israel's version of events stands up to scrutiny."
No we haven't - your trolling has made sure of that
You have been given statement after sytatment by eye-witnesses, by reporters, by nurses on site, by soldiers who witnessed the massacre - there was even a film made based on an Israeli soldiers breakdown following having observed the massacre
Your single response has been - Israeli said they didn't do it
Israel's role in the massacre is a done deal - part of history.
They facilitated the massacre, they provided the transport for the trrops, they gave them access to the site, they stood by, both in the camp and outside, in watchtowers, and watched the slaughter take place for three days - they even provided illumination so the killing could carry on through the hours of darkness.
When the massacre was over they once again provided that transport for the killers to make their getaway.
When the killing was over the Israeli troops assisted in burying the evidence in mass graves and later they built a sports stadium over it to hide the evidence.
Now matter how many statements of shock-horror statements and Israeli denials you produce, those are the recorded facts of the Sabra Shatila - long accepted   
You have now adopted a technique of trolling on these subjects, repeating your denials over and over again until they are driven into the ground.
Shatila as one of the great human rights atrocities of history - Israel facilitated in it and made it happen, it wouldn't have been possible without their full co-operation.
How about responding to the Bedouin ethnic cleansing - I suppose that is a lie as well!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:31 AM

Or Five Broken Cameras, or the deliberate sabotage of the peace talks...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:16 AM

See the Israeli version of the film.
Re the massacres, after literally thousands of posts, Israel's version stood.

If israel is guilty of war crimes, why the warm relations with EU countries, Scandinavian countries Canada etc.?
You kid yourself that your version is believed by real people in the real world.
It is not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM

And that's it - we take the word of nations who have a vested interested in trading with Israel above the facts
Stupid, even for you
Jim Carroll

Christian view
U.S. View
Israeli View
Jewish view - another atrocity

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:58 AM

Tiny Israel's trade can not be very significant.
You can hardly even see it on a map.
Not like, say Russia.
That can not be the only reason for warm relations.

The fact is that everyone knows that lies are told about Israel and in the real world as opposed to Mudcat no-one believes any of it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM

Have nay of the people you named ever produced any evidence of Israel's innocence, or for that matter, claimed that they didn't do it.
The world has had comfortable trading relations with monsters - Britain trades with China, has sold chemical weapons to Syria, supplied arms to Gadaffi, continues to sell arms to despotic regimes, and has "wrarm relations" with many of them.
You have had your evidence, you have the Redmond report, yu have international condemnation
Character witnesses who accept Israel's guilt enough to have not bothered defending her atrocities don't hack it
Guilty as charged
Out
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:53 AM

Britain has sold chemical weapons to no-one and does not even have any.

It is not just Britain who is on warm and friendly terms with Israel.
Virtually all liberal democracies are, and they would not be with a country that was really guilty of war crimes or crimes against humanity or any massacres at all.

It is all bollocks Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:54 AM

"And why do you never express views about the other Arab on Arab massacres at those same refugee camps, and other such camps like the terrible scenes we saw a few weeks ago at Palestinian camps in Syria?"

I deplore ANY massacre, whoever commits the crime and whoever is the victim.

But my post was in direct response to your dismissive comment on one particular massacre.

Unlike you, I don't seek to excuse the actions of one side by repeatedly using the primary school playground "Tommy did it too Miss!" defence.

1. The IDF had the camps surrounded.
2. They admitted the Phalangists, knowing the hatred that group has for the inmates.
3. At best, they stood by and let the slaughter of hundreds of men, women and children continue.

"Israel denies it" is not a credible defence.

In case you missed the allusion to Ms Rice Davies, she famously said "They would say that, wouldn't they"!

It is a huge relief that you are not a judge, as the thought of a serial killer being released because others killed more, is simply appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:20 AM

BTW, the Sabra/Shatila affair is a very recent instance of genuine Christian persecution of another religion.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:27 AM

U.S. involvement in Sabra Shatila
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

Horses mouth trade figures for Israel
Israel offers a wide range of opportunities for UK businesses – many UK companies are already exporting successfully and in 2012 two way trade reached a record high of over £3.85 billion of goods and a further £2 billion of services. For the first four months of 2013, UK companies exported £482 million of goods. Israel is an open and highly competitive market, with opportunities in most sectors, especially for small and medium-sized business. UK goods and services are generally held in high regard, but must be of high quality and competitively priced.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

I deplore ANY massacre, whoever commits the crime and whoever is the victim.

Sure, but the only one ever posted about here is the one where you can frame Israel.

Is 30+ years "recent" really?

The massacre was carried out by Arabs, not Jews.
The Israelis stopped it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:36 AM

Israel is a tiny country with correspondingly tiny trade, and no oil or gas.
No country would cosy up to a criminal state for access to orange juice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

Sure, but the only one ever posted about here is the one where you can frame Israel.
Israel has been found guilty by a United Nations enquiry into the massacre
The world and its mother has condemned Israel for the massacre
Thare has never been any question of Israel's part in the massace
Even Israel's own enquiry (hardlt impartial) was forced to admit partial guilt
Now Mudcat has become an 'Anti-Semitic plot'
Can we assume you are only a member of this forum to lead us all onto the path of righteousness?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM

"The Israelis stopped it."

SURE they did,............after watching it happen for THREE DAYS!
__________________________________________________________________


Concerning other massacres, I responded directly to a post from YOU, so they are irrelevant to that exchange. So I will take a leaf from your book.

Start a thread on any other subject you like, and I will express my opinions there!

You have suggested that to others in the past. How do like having your own evasive techniques used against you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM

U.S. involvement in Sabra Shatila
Jim Carroll

Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) may best be described as a left-wing equivalent to WingNutDaily.

The website describes itself as an "independent research and media organization." Globalresearch.ca takes pride in being a reliable "alternative news" source serving as a major repository of a broad range of "news articles, in-depth reports and analysis on issues which are barely covered by the mainstream media" (such as the New World Order). Its politico-economic stance is strongly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, anti-militarist, "internationalist but anti-globalization." Its view of science, the economy and geopolitics seems to be broadly conspiracist.

While many of Globalresearch.ca's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping and bullshit throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from "Russia Today", along with other unreliable and/or open sources.

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, Globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda. The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order. Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11, vaccines, genetic modification, Zionism, HAARP, global warming, and David Kelly. Analyses of these issues tend follow the lines of the site's political biases.

Apparently, contributors to Globalresearch.ca consider information sourced from anyone who seems aligned to their ideology as reliable; during the 2011 Libyan civil war the site was an apologist for Muammar al-Gaddafi, reproducing his propaganda and painting him as a paragon of a modern leader. It's no surprise then that the site has long become a magnet for radicals, fringe figures and crank elements from the left in general. And ironically, it has more in common with its writers' enemies and wingnut rivals than they would ever admit.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:29 AM

Start a thread on any other subject you like, and I will express my opinions there!
I started one about the abuses in Syria.
"Homs horror"
Feel free to comment.

Israel has been found guilty by a United Nations enquiry into the massacre
Not true.
The world and its mother has condemned Israel for the massacre
Which governments?
Any liberal democracies?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM

"Not true."
The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre - guilty as that
"I started one about the abuses in Syria."
And proposed that Assad should be armed with riot control equipment
"Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) may best be described as a left-wing equivalent to WingNutDaily."
Only by nutters who present pages of from openly fascist sites such as 'Muslim' Watch', Racist Sites like 'White Supremecy' and Zionist sites like 'Gatestone'..... not forgetting his supporter who back some of those claims vehemently - without exception nor qualification - thousand of Islamophobic claims - and is now defending Israeli massacres of civilians - why not!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:56 AM

Israel accepts indirect responsibility as the authority in Lebanon at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:04 AM

"Israel accepts indirect responsibility as the authority in Lebanon at the time."
Not for the massacres - just that they stood by and did nothing - a war crime in itself.
Booboo put an objection to one of the links I put up - the other three stand then?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:02 PM

They did not.
They ended it.

Israel has been found guilty by a United Nations enquiry into the massacre
Not true.
The world and its mother has condemned Israel for the massacre
Which governments?
Any liberal democracies?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM

Denial again
Another game set and match I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM

Denial again
Another game set and match I think
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM

They started it by delivering the killers to the site and allowing them access to their victims
THey ended it by burying the bodies under the stadium
I dare you to say neither of these things are true
That will just about put an end to an semblance of credibility you believe you have
Even your best friends.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM

They started it by delivering the killers to the site and allowing them access to their victims
THey ended it by burying the bodies under the stadium
I dare you to say neither of these things are true
That will just about put an end to an semblance of credibility you believe you have
Even your best friends.....
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:52 PM

They do not deny transportation.
(The camps are only 15 minutes walk from the centre of Beirut anyway.)

Bodies under the stadium is a myth.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:10 PM

One liberal democracy can be cited that accuses Israel is Ireland, the source of the vessels intended for Gaza to offer relief.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:15 PM

Ireland did not accuse Israel of the massacre, and abstained from a UN GA resolution condemning it as a war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:25 PM

Irish embassy website.
"Ireland and Israel are both modern, open, export orientated economies which benefit from highly educated and dynamic workforces. Israel is one of Ireland's largest trading partners in the Middle East, with visible trade amounting to a half a billion US dollars annually. It is not surprising, therefore, that there are strong commercial links across a wide range of business areas from software and the life sciences to education and food and drinks. "

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:53 PM

Denial and charecter reference versus eye witnesses and conviction by the UN enquiriry
Eye witness account from a doctor - now let me see - who do we believe?
Jim Carroll
All lies, I tell you!!
The Massacre
The phalange militia were Israel's proxy in Lebanon, their members were recruited from the Maronite Christian community. They were payed for, trained and armed by Israel. They were effectively an extension of the IDF, and were usually sent in to do the dirty work.
After Sharon's army had taken West Beirut and sealed off all escapes routes from the Palestinian refugee camps, Sharon ordered the phalange in. The official order from Sharon read "for the operation in the camps the phalange should be sent in"*. Knowing that the camps were full of unarmed civilians - mainly women and children, only around 150 phalange were deployed. The testimonies of the survivors suggest that both Israeli soldiers and their mercenaries the Phalange entered the camps and participated in the massacre**.
The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:15 PM

This doctor was not an eye witness.
We have been over all this.
She was in the hospital and saw nothing of it, and found out about it afterwards.
We have the account of a nurse who was with her in the hospital and they were marched out of the camp together.

You are resorting to dishonesty again.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM

Now you are openly lying again to defend a human rights atrocity.
Yes she was there, as was the nurse whose eye-witness testimony you attempted to use, and then to deny when it didn't work out, and the on-the-spot journalist reporting from the site, and the Israeli soldiers who gave evidence against the massacres, and the investigation teams sent in to report, and the survivors of the massacre and the Falangists who were later pressed to give evidence as to their involvement... every single account of the massacre that doesn't show Israel in a favourable light has been dismissed by you as "lies" of has been ignored.
You are a sick, sick joke - thankfully you are a one-off - not even your bigoted mates bother to invent things - they just pepper us with their extremist arguments.
Jim Carroll   
Wiki entry.
"From Beirut to Jerusalem: A Woman Surgeon With the Palestinians is a book by Swee Chai Ang, an orthopaedic surgeon who worked with civilians during the Lebanese Civil War. The book details her eye-witness account of the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Dr. Ang, a graduate of the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Britain, testified before the Kahan Commission. The commission was responsible for investigating the nature of the Israeli involvement in the massacre of perhaps 800 to 1000 Palestinians. Dr. Ang established a British charity following her first hand account of the massacres known as the Medical Aid for Palestinians (MAP) which she discusses in her work"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM

as was the nurse whose eye-witness testimony you attempted to use, and then to deny when it didn't work out,

Not true Jim.
Nurse Siegel gave an honest account of the experience she and Dr. Chai shared.

You have to admire Chai's work but her accounts are loaded with dishonest propaganda.

You know this because we debated it in great detail just one year ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

In his book, Foucault's Pendulum, Umberto Eco writes: "If two things don't fit, but you believe both of them, thinking that somewhere, hidden, there must be a third thing that connects them, that's credulity." Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland. They also believe Palestinians have a right to the Jewish homeland. They are credulous, because they refuse to look at the "hidden thing" that allows them to connect the two things that don't fit. The hidden thing is anti-Semitism. Make no mistake: BDS is the new "final solution."

Barbara Kay - National Post

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM

Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland. They also believe Palestinians have a right to the Jewish homeland.

Moresimplistic booshit, Bullbad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

I am against Zionism.

Do I think that Zionists have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

What you you think?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:16 AM

Do you think that Muslims have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

You have said that you support that- the West Bank was made "JEW-Free" in 1948 during the Jordanian occupation, and Palestinians settled that previously Jewish occupied land.


Unless the borders of the Two-state solution reflect the LAST set of AGREED upon borders ( i.e., NOT caused by military occupation), the war will continue (IT HAS NEVER BEEN ENDED).

So, we should go back to the 1923 borders of The Jewish Homeland and TransJordan, the Arab Muslim homeland. All other borders after that have been denied by the Arab nations.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM

Do I think that Zionists have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

If they ever started doing that, I would be very angry about it.
No decent country would have anything to do with a people who did that.
Not the Brits or the Irish or the Duth or the French or the Swedes or the Canadians or the Australians or the New zealanders or......

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

There are those who are not accepting Israel's suppression of Palestinians that are raising their voices about it all over the world including the countries mentioned above.
As long as the Palestinian cause continues to be non-violent political resistance, it will remain a viable force that will eventually have a win-win for it and Israel.

If the BDS lapses into the violent quagmire of military reaction found in Syria or Egypt today, which I doubt it will since BDS is predicated on non-violent political resistance, it could
dissipate it's influence.

As it stands, BDS is working toward the betterment of the Palestinian and the
people of Israel. The notion that Palestinians want to eliminate Israel
is a propagandistic lie. It is being manufactured by the reactionary so-called right-wing forces in the Zionist community as it builds new settlements and evicts the Palestinian tenants from their rightful homes. Their actions are unsustainable as a growing BDS will show.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM

"The notion that Palestinians want to eliminate Israel
is a propagandistic lie. It is being manufactured by the reactionary so-called right-wing forces in the Zionist community as it builds new settlements and evicts the Palestinian tenants from their rightful homes."


Stringgie, the QUOTE from the HAMAS charter is from THEIR website.


Are you calling Palestinians LIARS????????

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:34 PM

from the Hamas Charter

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.""


"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who can presume to speak for all Islamic generations to the Day of Resurrection?

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Sharia (law), and the same goes for all lands conquered by Muslims by force, during the times of (Islamic) conquests, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Muslims, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Muslims, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit, but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine , is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM

Don't confuse the man with facts BB, it spoils his delusions.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 01:21 AM

Stringsinger, which of those countries treat Israel as the pariah it would be if those accusations are true.
You claimed that about Ireland and I already showed that you were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:34 PM

"You claimed that about Ireland and I already showed that you were wrong."
You have shown nobody any such thing.
You showed yourself a racist idiot on Ireland - your evidence was as invented as was your "cultural implant" witnesses.
You appear to have slunk away from the Irish thread to lick your wounds, so please don't try to turn your defeats into victories.
Israel has been condemned time and time again throughout the world for tis terroris behaviour and human rights abuses.
Up to now, the only support they have had is from the U.S. (with its 100+ vetoes which have prevented the regime being indicted as war criminals.
There is a large opposition to the present policy from Jews within and outsidee Israel (all Anti-Semite, no doubt) and even America has stepped away from supporting its behaviour over the peace negotiations.   
"Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland."
Why I am no longer a Zionist
Zionism is a temporal political movement - to suggest that to be Anti-Zionist is to be Anti-Semitic is equivalent to suggestion that to oppose political organisations like The British National Party, whose basis is a claim to represent the interests of the British people, is Anti-British.
It is also equivalent to skulking behind the dead of Auschwitz to defend war crimes and atrocities.
Only an Anti-Semite would accuse Jews of horrors such as Sabra/Shatila when it was Israel who facilitated the massacre.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:07 PM

Jim, I showed that Ireland enjoyed warm and friendly relations with Israel.
Like any decent government, it would not if it believed all that shit.

I have not slunk away from the Irish thread.
You just did not respond to my last post.

Instead of making up shit about me, try to address what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

"I showed that Ireland enjoyed warm and friendly relations with Israel"
Another figment of your sick and inventive mind.
This is actually a summary of Ireland's "friendly relations with Israel"
"Both countries established diplomatic relations in 1975. Prior to 1975, Ireland had refused to establish relations due to Israel's alleged violations of UN Resolutions. In 1981, however, Ireland condemned Israel's attack on Iraq's nuclear reactor. Ireland did not allow an Israeli embassy to open until 20 December 1993. Two weeks prior to that, Ireland had allowed PLO Leader Yasser Arafat to visit and open a delegation.
Ireland annually provides €7.5 million in aid to the Palestinians, including €3.5 million for UNRWA"
Not that it matters anyway
Britain has friendly relations with China, who is at present, one of her greatest trading partners.
Does that negate China's record on human rights - I presume so?
Our (Britain's) relations with despots is legendary
Gaddafi
Bahrain
In the past, Britain and the US has had "friendly relations" with some of the world's despots - like, for instance, the Salazar regime in Portugal, which was regularly declared as Britain's greatest ally
Salazar
While the Greek and Chilean fascists were torturing and 'disappearing' many thousands of its opponents they were enjoying "friendly relations with Britain and America - Margaret Thatcher's "friendly relations" with Pinochet the Torturer could have come straight out of a Barbara Cartland novel.
"Friendly relations" are a political and economic expediency and have nothing whatever to do with the human rights records of those concerned - whatever "facts" one cares to invent about them to defend human rights abuses and terrorist behaviour.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:08 AM

Irish embassy website.
"Ireland and Israel are both modern, open, export orientated economies which benefit from highly educated and dynamic workforces. Israel is one of Ireland's largest trading partners in the Middle East, with visible trade amounting to a half a billion US dollars annually. It is not surprising, therefore, that there are strong commercial links across a wide range of business areas from software and the life sciences to education and food and drinks. "

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:34 AM

As I said - immaterial - the "business links" says it all, especially since the death of the Celtic Tiger.
You have been given Ireland's official position on Israel - wherever tweakings are taking place to keep the trade flowing, Ireland's support for the Palestinian people remains unaltered.
It doesn't matter anyway - as I have shown, "friendly relations" and political mouthings do not alter one iota the human rights records of any country - or were Gaddafi, the present Hamad bin Isa bin Salman Al Khalifa,s Bahrain, Salazar's Portugal, Papadopoulos's and Makarezos's Greece, Pinochet's Chile all misjudged souls because of their "friendly relations" with the west.
And what about 'China, me old China' - hotbed of democracy or what?
Did you know that with Syria's 20 year record of torturing and disappearing its opponents, Syria's present leader, Assad, was in line for an honourary British knighthood - gawd bless 'is democratic socks!
Pratt!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM

Half a billion is a fraction of Ireland's total trade.
If Ireland believed all that shit about Israel's evil doings, they would have nothing to do with them.
Like all intelligent and informed governments, they know it is all propaganda and bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:03 AM

You are clinging onto Ireland and ignoring her official stated policy while at the same time deliberately ignoring the ludicrous idea that silence on Israel's crimes have nothing to do with those crimes being a fact
Israel's actions speak for themselves
!00+ vetoes speak for themselves
America's outright condemnation of Israel's behaviour at the Conference table (described as "Antisemitism by the Israeli regime) just about says it all
Only the atrocity deniers remain
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

Jim, liberal democracies like Ireland know that Israel is not the evil tyrant of the propaganda lies.
Those hundred vetoed motions were not supported by any intelligent, informed government.
The other sort are a majority at UN.

Ireland's "stated policy" is strong links with Israel.
They obviously do not see a "terrorist state."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:01 AM

"Jim, liberal democracies like Ireland know that Israel is not the evil tyrant of the propaganda lies."
Load of crap in the light of "liberal democracies" arms trading with terrorists record
"Those hundred vetoed motions were not supported by any intelligent, informed government."
So the UN is a load of crap and should be scrapped - must write that down!!
Sheesh - deeper and deeper every time you post - keep digging please
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM

There you go - one example from the United Nations News centre.
The U.S. veto had overwhelming support from all liberal democratic nations - my arse
Jim Carroll

UNITED STATES VETOES SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION ON ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS
18 February 2011 – The United States today vetoed a Security Council resolution condemning all Israeli settlements established in occupied Palestinian territory since 1967 as illegal, saying that while it agreed that the settlements are illegitimate the resolution harmed chances for peace talks.
The other 14 members of the Council voted for the resolution, which demanded that "Israel, as the occupying power, immediately and completely ceases all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and that it fully respect its legal obligations in this regard." But as one of the five permanent members, the negative US vote is the equivalent of a veto.
The resolution, co-sponsored by over 120 of the UN's 192 Member States, also called on both parties to comply with their obligations under the Road Map plan, sponsored by the diplomatic Quartet of the United Nations, European Union, Russia and US, which seeks to establish a two-State solution of Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and security within recognized borders

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:42 PM

How times change. Shopping the other day I was looking for some oranges, and just about to buy some that looked OK, when I noticed the label - Jaffa. And I remembered a CND march long ago on a sweltering day and a couple of lads running up and down the line selling oranges and saying - "boycott South Africa, these are Jaffa oranges" .

I look forward to the day when I"ll be able to buy Jaffa oranges, the way I can now buy South African.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM

I was not talking about settlers, although decent countries welcome them.
I was talking about claims if Israeli "terrorism" and " constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM

Those who wish to remain on the land where their ancestors have lived for many generations are tolerated, under sufferance. Those who wish to return home are excluded, unless that claim relates to where ancestors are believed to have lived several thousand years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:36 PM

The people who defame Israel and wish to undermine its status in the world are not anti-Semites — or so they will tell you, every chance they get. Their denial of anti-Semitism is essential to their moral position. In their own view they are good progressives, therefore absolutely innocent of racial or religious discrimination. Their propaganda campaign, which they hope eventually will escalate into economic warfare, is intended merely to reshape Israel's policies.

What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.

Robert Fulford: The BDS smokescreen

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM

Ho- hum
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:19 PM

Well said, bobad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:28 PM

Same old garbage, eh BooBad?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:07 PM

Same old insightful and erudite post, eh Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:01 PM

Hard to be insightful and erudite when what one is responding to is pure bullshit, BooBad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:02 PM

Right Greg, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:34 PM

>Stringgie, the QUOTE from the HAMAS charter is from THEIR website.>

Hamas is one faction of the Palestinian struggle but doesn't represent the BDS movement in its entirety. If that quote is in fact legitimate on their website, the lie is that BDS represents a violent solution to the problem, a propaganda technique that is propagated by AIPAC and the Zionist controlled Israeli government.

>What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.>

Actually, the same old fallacy, equating the oppressive actions of Zionism in the West Bank
with "leftist" politics, the same old red-baiting, the labeling and the complete denial of
any oppressive move that Israel makes, in short, part of the hackneyed propaganda that pervades US and Israeli policies. What the BDS movement wants to do really is have
Israeli government hacks see what they are doing to their country, isolating it with a
hawkish ideology that will preclude any solution to the mid-east crisis. It's the same
old "dreck".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:49 PM

Not quite sure what anyone means by this use of the term "Zionism" & its derivatives in a pejorative sense. It was the name of an international Jewish movement from late C19 to the proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region where the Jews had lived until the Roman conquest & the diaspora. What its unfavourable connotation may be in the senses it is being used at present by Israel's denunciators, as eg in Stringfellow's post above, is something I can by no means fathom.

This is in no way intended as a defence of those parts of Israeli policy which are agreed to be regrettable: simply a semantic enquiry.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:14 PM

The people who defame Israel and wish to undermine its status in the world are not anti-Semites — or so they will tell you, every chance they get. Their denial of anti-Semitism is essential to their moral position. In their own view they are good progressives, therefore absolutely innocent of racial or religious discrimination. Their propaganda campaign, which they hope eventually will escalate into economic warfare, is intended merely to reshape Israel's policies.

What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.

Allow me to redraft the above misrepresenting piece of bile.

The people who criticise Israel government policy and who wish to remove its US-led immunity from true scrutiny are not antisemites. To be an antisemite you must display unreasonable and blanket condemnation of all Jewish people. The critics of the Israeli government are often moved towards denial of the antisemitism they are routinely accused of, mainly by ardent, blindfolded and insecure supporters of the Israeli regime, but they are seldom otherwise troubled by the term which, after all, does not apply to them. They are a mixed bunch (including a good number of Israeli Jews as well as many Jews outside Israel), but they do not claim to be progressives and would never make saintly assertions about their total freedom from racial or religious prejudice, though they often try quite hard to avoid stuff like that. Their campaign to raise awareness of the Israeli government's unjust discrimination against Arabs in both Israel and the occupied territories, as well as the ever-worsening grabbing of the best land for the exclusive use of Jews, not to speak of the dividing of Palestinian families with a concrete wall (we can discuss their military atrocities another time maybe) is certainly intended to persuade Israel to reshape its policies.

We do oppose Israel's land-grabbing in the West Bank. The "BDS" movement, for want of a better term, is an attempt to persuade the Israeli government to treat all it citizens fairly, not just Jews. It has nothing to do with some hidden leftist agenda (let's leave those fairy tales to the conspiracy theorists), and is certainly not a "struggle against Jews". Jewish people in history have endured more than their fair share of discrimination and level-headed people of whatever political persuasion know that further discrimination against Jews would leave us all in just as miserable state, or worse, as we're in at the moment. And, not least, it would be morally indefensible.

Get your bloody blinkers off, will you? Just because some of us don't share your unthinking brand of right-wing extremism doesn't mean we're all bloody commies, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:06 PM

Boobad knows, all right, Steve. He just doesn't CARE.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:36 PM

Agree, Steve, so far as it goes. However, would point out yet again that in 2005 the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency) published a working definition of antisemitism, which drew particular attention to the common practice of disguising antisemitism as being merely political objection to Israeli policies. It is by no means always a simple matter to determine when anti-Israel comment is just a disguised form of antisemitism. Often the context can help -- Israel is often denounced in BNP publications etc; but the distinction cannot always be so simply made.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:32 AM

It seems that the now common (on Mudcat) practice of the use of "Antisemitism" as a defence of criticism of the behaviour of the Israeli government has one purpose only - to stifle debate on the issues - if those using it can make the subject "Jewish" rather than Israeli, the subject becomes a no-go area.
Some of the bitterest critics of the Israeli government I have met have been Jewish friends, some of them active in the early days of the State of Israel, in the kibbutz movement.
The first time I heard Israel policy referred to as "fascist" was by a Manchester Jewish girl friend who had lost many of her family in the Holocaust.
Was she "Antisemitic"; are the American based 'Jews for Justice' all "Antisemites" - or 'Haaretz', or the many Jews who criticise Israeli policy, including from within Israel - often to the extreme.
There is a debate within Israel itself as to whether present Israeli policy can be described as promoting an 'Apartheid' state - an 'Anti-Jewish' plot from within maybe?
Last year I watched half a dozen former Israeli Secret Service heads discuss their work, on camera, in the film, The Gatekeepers.
Even if there was not enough evidence of the disturbing nature of Israeli Government policy shown via film clips, all of the six were critical of the present government, some extremely so.
One drew breath at the end of his sentence and stopped himself from using the term "fascist", shaking his head and choosing "unthinkable" instead.
Describing criticism of Israel as "Antisemitic", is not only cowardly apologist, is is extremely Antisemitic in itself.
It attributes all the crimes and human rights abuses that are being committed in Israel today to "the Jews".
Antisemitism has been responsible for the worst crimes in history, it has never gone away.
If Marine LePenn, who has been tipped as a future French Prime Minister, has her way, it will become a feature of European life in the not-to-distant future.
I watched an interview with her on television last week, and was fascinated to hear her talk about her overtures to Nigel Farrago, of Ukip, whom she apparently regards as a soulmate, which brings it all nearer home - the latest controversy of the racist nature of Ukip election publicity, indicates she may have a friend-in-waiting.
Crying "Antisemitic" wolf really isn't going to help in all this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:24 AM

Agree with almost all that, Jim; except that I note you fail [not for the first time] to take account of the points I ref'd in the post before yours, ie those made in a significant report [you can google it] by an objective officially appointed European body. Criticism of Israel is in general just that; but if you persist in claiming that in 100% of cases it is not used as a mask for antisemitism, neverevereverever!, to give that prejudice a veneer of acceptability, then you are asserting more than you can possibly know, in direct contradiction of those who have gone more deeply than you into the question, about which they are better informed than you by the very fact of having dedicated much time to the production of an official, and respected report on it. You are often in the right on a lot of topics, Jim; but an occasional attack of uncharacteristic modesty, an admission that there might just now & then be occasions when your views are not those of an Infallible, would not come amiss.

Regards
~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:35 AM

I have never at any time dismissed or denied Antisemitism Mike, and it's more than a little disingenuous to describe by attitude as "an occasional attack of uncharacteristic modesty"
We all believe we have a case, and we put it as well as we can, but you, shamefully, have been one of those who have hidden behind the "Antisemitic" defence.
I stand by by attitude towards Israeli policy and past actions, and have stated as clearly as I am able why I believe as I do.
I also believe it to be one of the most dangerous policies in the world today because of where it is and who is involved.
In the end, all my postings have been on the effect of all this holy warfare, which is what it has become, on those who only stand and get slaughtered.
Religious and politicians can all burn in their own chosen hell as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 06:08 AM

No I haven't. I detest the present Israeli regime far more than you ever can; your youth wasn't dedicated to bringing about the existence of the betrayal of all our hopes that they have become. But if you imagine that that fact obviates entirely the fact that hostility to that state can frequently be used as a useful but pretty well transparent veil for antisemitism, then you are not bringing to the matter the full use of your undoubted intelligence ~~~ and one can only sigh and wonder why!

Try asking yourself, just once...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 07:30 AM

Really no need for abuse Mike - we do seem to be more or less on the same side on this question.
Antisemitism can come in all forms, but it doesn't make those who find what is happening in Israel today Antisemites, nor does it make their case any less valid.
If we could remove this Antisemitism shit from these arguments, maybe we could get down to addressing the facts of the situation calmly and without the rencour it inevitably causes - it is your crowd that has but up this particularly distasteful line of defence, just as it is the same people who have made these crimes "Jewish".
"Try asking yourself just once.... rather than slinging "Jew-baiter" about, as you have done.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM

>The proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region<

If this is the definition of Zionism, then Israel is a theocracy.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM

"The proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region"
Echoed by a settler interviewed in the excellent series of programmes on the history of the Jews who gave a chilling account of how far he believed the State of Israel should stretch.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:49 PM

Stringsinger -- The fact that Judaism is the official state religion no more makes Israel "a theocracy" than the fact that the Church of England is "Established" makes the UK one. Or are all countries with a state religion theocracies? In which case how is it as pejorative a term as you are obviously trying to make it sound?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM

Stringsinger doesn't have a problem with Christian states Vatican, most of Europe, All of South America) , or Muslim ones Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc…). He only objects to Jewish states.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:23 PM

Yes. And there's a word for it, isn't there? But we'd better not say it or poor old Jim might have 50 coniptions!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

A well-matched pair - keep it up and you'll have three of a kind.
Isn't it time you found another volcano to sit on Mike - that one must be getting pretty cold by now?
Anyway - must go.
I've promised not to hang around with thread-huggers - have a nice hate boys.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:48 PM

WAiting on future "BDS" of theocracies…


"

Currently, the following religions have been established as state religions in some countries. All are versions of Christianity, Islam or Buddhism.

Christian countries[edit]
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):

Catholic[edit]
Jurisdictions where Catholicism has been established as a state or official religion:

Alsace-Moselle
Argentina[5]
Costa Rica[6]
Liechtenstein[7]
Malta[8]
Monaco[9]
Vatican City (theocracy)
Other
Andorra
Dominican Republic
El Salvador,[10]
Panama
Paraguay,[11] Peru,[12]
Poland,[13]
Spain[14]
Portugal
Ireland
The above listed countries also give constitutional privileges to Catholicism without necessarily referring to it as the state religion.

Eastern Orthodox[edit]
Jurisdictions where one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches has been established as a state religion:

Greece: Church of Greece[15]
Mount Athos (officially the 'Autonomous Monastic State of the Holy Mountain')
Georgia: Georgian Orthodox Church[16] (See Concordat of 2002)
Other
The Finnish Orthodox Church[17] is not the state religion of Finland but has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members, and receives a share of corporate tax revenue of the state.[18] The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.

Protestantism[edit]
Lutheran[edit]
Jurisdictions where a Lutheran church has been established as a state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the percentage of the population being members.

Denmark (Church of Denmark)[19] Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.
Iceland (Church of Iceland)[20] (76.81% of population members at 1 January 2012) [21]
Norway (Church of Norway)[22][23][24]
Other
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.[17] The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the Parliament of Finland. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish Constitution and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards.[25] (77.2% of population members at the end of 2011).[26] The President of the Republic of Finland also decides the themes for intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.

Sweden relegated their state church, Church of Sweden, to a national church in 2000. In late 2011 the Church of Sweden had 68.8% of the population as its members although only around 20% of the Swedish population believes in any religion. Memberships are high because until 1996 membership was automatic for children of members. Since 1996, baptism is the basis for membership.[27]

Reformed[edit]
Jurisdictions where a Reformed church has been established as a state religion:

Tuvalu (Church of Tuvalu)
Other
The Church of Scotland is recognized as the national church of Scotland, but is not a state church and thus differs from the Church of England. Its constitution, which is recognised by acts of the British Parliament, gives it complete independence from the state in spiritual matters.[28]

At the cantonal state level in Switzerland, of 26 Swiss cantons, 24 give official recognition to both the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church. The Cantons of Geneva and Neuchâtel have no state recognized church. At the federal state level, Switzerland has no official religion.

Anglican[edit]
See also: State religion#Tabular summary
Jurisdictions where an Anglican church has been established as a state religion:

England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [29] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In 19th century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, even when most of its privileges had been removed by Parliament. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.

Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops.

Muslim countries[edit]
Main articles: Political aspects of Islam, Sharia, Caliphate, Islamic religious police (disambiguation), and Islamism

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2012)
Many Muslim-majority countries have constitutionally established Islam, or a specific form of it, as a state religion. Proselytism on behalf of other religions is often illegal.

Islam (non-denominational)[edit]
Bangladesh (Section 2A of the 1972 constitution specifies, "The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic."[30])
Iraq
Djibouti[31]
Pakistan[32]
Palestine[33]
Sunni Islam[edit]
Afghanistan Algeria Brunei Comoros Egypt Jordan Libya Maldives Malaysia Mauritania Morocco Qatar Saudi Arabia Somalia Tunisia United Arab Emirates
Shiʾa Islam[edit]
Iran (theocracy)
Ibadi[edit]
Oman
Mixed Shia and Sunni[edit]
Kuwait
Yemen (Zaydi fiqh among Zaydi Shias)
Bahrain
Buddhist countries[edit]
Governments where Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, has been established as an official religion:

Theravada Buddhism[edit]
Cambodia[34]
Other
The constitution of Sri Lanka accords Buddhism the "foremost place", although it does not identify it as a state religion.[35]

Likewise, in Thailand, the 2007 Thai constitution recognized Buddhism as "the religion of Thai tradition with the most adherents".[citation needed] However, it is not formally identified as a state religion.

Vajrayana Buddhism[edit]
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)[36]
Israel[edit]
Israel is defined in several of its laws as a "Jewish and democratic state" (medina yehudit ve-demokratit). However, the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can describe the Jewish people as both an ethnic or a religious group. The debate about the meaning of the term "Jewish" and its legal and social applications is one of the most profound issues with which Israeli society deals.

The State of Israel supports religious institutions, particularly Orthodox Jewish ones, and recognizes the "religious communities" as carried over from those recognized under the British Mandate. These are: Jewish and Christian (Eastern Orthodox, Latin [Catholic], Gregorian-Armenian, Armenian-Catholic, Syrian [Catholic], Chaldean [Uniate], Greek Catholic Melkite, Maronite, and Syrian Orthodox). The fact that the Muslim population was not defined as a religious community is a vestige of the Ottoman period[citation needed] during which Islam was the dominant religion and does not affect the rights of the Muslim community to practice their faith. At the end of the period covered by this report, several of these denominations were pending official government recognition; however, the Government has allowed adherents of not officially recognized groups freedom to practice. In 1961, legislation gave Muslim Shari'a courts exclusive jurisdiction in matters of personal status. Three additional religious communities have subsequently been recognized by Israeli law: the Druze (prior under Islamic jurisdiction), the Evangelical Episcopal Church, and the Bahá'í.[37] These groups have their own religious courts as official state courts for personal status matters (see millet system).

The structure and goals of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are governed by Israeli law, but the law does not say explicitly that it is a state Rabbinate. However, outspoken Israeli secularists such as Shulamit Aloni and Uri Avnery have long maintained that it is that in practice. Non-recognition of other streams of Judaism such as Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism is the cause of some controversy; rabbis belonging to these currents are not recognized as such by state institutions and marriages performed by them are not recognized as valid. As of 2011 marriage in Israel provides no provision for civil marriage, marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious communities, or same-sex marriages, although there is recognition of marriages performed abroad.

Political religions[edit]
In some countries, there is a political ideology sponsored by the government that may be called political religion.[38]"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

but the distinction cannot always be so simply made.

It can be simply made inside my head. I'm honest and I'm not antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

Anyway - must go.
I've promised not to hang around with thread-huggers
J Carroll

Contemptible scaredy-cat. Nyaahhhhh!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM

I've been trying for a while to take more care with terminology on this issue. I'm not antisemitic and I don't want to be called it, so I don't talk about "the Jewish lobby" for example (try pro-Israel lobby instead) and I try to remember that, in opposing such horrid policies as settlement expansion, the splitting apart of Palestinian families and the use of white phosphorus in Gaza, I am talking about the Israeli government's actions and not "Israel". Plenty of people in Israel, of all persuasions, I'm led to believe, hate what goes on and hate being tarred with the one brush. What the Israeli government does, deliberately to Palestinians and unintentionally to Israeli Jews, is bad for everyone in that country, men, women and children. They all deserve a better deal than the one on offer from their boneheaded and hubris-smitten political leaders (and from the ones in their poodle state, the US). That's my take and I'm sticking to it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

"Only those with pathetically short time horizons, an abysmally poor knowledge of history, or simply implacable anti-Semitic leanings will refuse to acknowledge why after two millennia of persecution a Jewish homeland was finally created and why its moral legitimacy and physical existence is simply beyond denial."

http://news.yahoo.com/passover-hell-week-190000272--politics.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:58 PM

"Contemptible scaredy-cat. Nyaahhhhh!"
You've already had your third childhood - at least - can't have that many more left.
You've been given the facts - you choose to ignore them - sticking out your tongue doesn't hack it.
Just in case you missed it
15 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM
or
23 Apr 14 - 03:32 AM
Jamaica Inn awaits - must get my night-viewing glasses
Sleep well and pleasant dreams
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:57 PM

Only those with ... implacable anti-Semitic leanings will refuse to acknowledge... [the] moral legitimacy and physical existence is simply beyond denial.

Cute, BBruce. Real cute.

But that doesn't "legitimize" the current policies of the Israeli GOVERNMENT.

I'm personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government and who are thus by your definition and that of BooBad & the other Israeli apoligists on this forum "Anti-Semites".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

"The BDS campaign has two main ingredients -- one is deception and the other is another kind of lie."

No, the great lie is the overt propaganda offered by the Israeli government.

"In some countries, there is a political ideology sponsored by the government that may be called political religion."

Not in a democracy. Thomas Jefferson had a lot to say about that.

Although Israel has many church affiliates within its borders, they are permitted only if they don't interfere with the occupation of Palestinians.

"WAiting on future "BDS" of theocracies…"

That sounds like a very good idea. Fortunately, the advanced countries of the world are not subjected to theocratic pressure.

It must be remembered that Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims in general can't be anti-Semitic because they are anthropologically classified as Semites as well as Jews.

BB says about me, "Stringsinger doesn't have a problem with Christian states Vatican, most of Europe, All of South America) , or Muslim ones Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc…). He only objects to Jewish states."

I must tell him that he is grossly misinformed and has not bothered to ask what I really think about this issue but like some here wants to corner me by his verbal traps.

I have a problem with Christian States, Muslim States or any theocracy that doesn't observe the Separation of Church and State as we have traditionally done in the US since the inception of our Constitution which defines us as Americans.

I don't think BB is qualified to comment on what takes place in "most of Europe" or "all of South America" which is becoming more and more enlightened and unchurched.

As in the US, the governments of many countries have been corrupted by clerical power
however, in time this will be rectified in the same manner as corporate power here in the States becomes apparent.

"Stringsinger -- The fact that Judaism is the official state religion no more makes Israel "a theocracy" than the fact that the Church of England is "Established" makes the UK one. Or are all countries with a state religion theocracies? In which case how is it as pejorative a term as you are obviously trying to make it sound? "

Then perhaps you can explain Zionism to me reasonably and its predication on scriptural references. The Church of England is being ignored and not used as a method of occupation, though in the past, this might have taken place. Yes, all countries with a state religion could be classified as a theocracy especially if it takes its form in controlling official governmental decisions. I am merely explaining that a country that uses religion to base its political decisions as does Israel and Saudi Arabia are in fact theocracies. Pejorative is not the word I have used.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

String: If you google Theodor Herzl, Zionism, and Der Judenstaat [title of Herzl's pamphlet genarally accepted as the founding document of Zionism as a political movement] you will find that its impetus was political and secular, and only marginally, if at all, relgiously based. Israel is no more a theocracy than any other modern state with an established religion, to which it is not in any way mandatory to belong to achieve citizenship. There are religious political parties, to be sure, but plenty of secular ones also; religion plays no more part in Israeli political decisions and policies than does the presence of bishops in the House of Lords here in the UK.

And do for heaven's sake drop the tired dreary old bromide about how some people, other than Jews, who happen also to be ethnically Semitic can't be antisemitic in the accepted sense of the term, which in accepted usage applies solely to hostility to Jews. There are perfectly good semantic and historical reasons for this which only a dishonestly motivated hair-splitting maker of crass non-applicable debating points would ignore. Here eg is the opening of wikipedia's entry:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.[1] A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite". As Jews are an ethnoreligious group, antisemitism is generally considered a form of racism.
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[2] and that has been its normal use since then.[3] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[4]

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:50 PM

One notes that the Israeli leadership has pulled out of talks with the Palestinians because Hamas is back in the fold. Yeah, right. This is hardly news at all, is it. Not once in the sorry history of the Israel/Palestine conflict has Israel been serious about peace talks. Why not? Because Israel does not have to make one single concession, ever. Why's that? Because the USA, Israel's poodle (and AIPAC will always make sure it stays that way), will neither criticise nor sanction Israel in any way, no matter how egregious Israel's atrocities may be. Big news on the Beeb tonight, it was, but a big bloody ho-hum from me.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM

The tragedy is that by failing to make a peaceful settlement of the conflict at this time - preferring to make other illegal type of settlement - the Government of Israel is making it increasingly probable that in the long term the country called Israel will have the same transitory existence ad the Crusader Kingdoms in the Holy Land.

And that really would be a tragedy in all kinds of ways.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 08:12 PM

And, of course, Israel wil abjure any and all responsibility in that unfortunate outcome

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:00 PM

MgM, the idea that Zionism is a secular movement doesn't even take into account the meaning of the term, that borrowed from the Old Testament. In fact, the religious political parties dominate the policies of Israel and that the idea that the rabbis of Israel play no part in Israeli politics than does the house of bishops is blatantly incorrect.
That is analogous to the same propaganda that is given when we call the US a democracy today.

As far as the "dreary old bromide" to insist that the term Semitic be applied to only Jewish people is prejudicial and racist. The only accepted usage of the term being applied to Jews only is a propaganda device that has no relevance in today's Mid-East conflicts.

If you trust Wikipedia's entry, than I suggest that you take into account Tom Lehrer's
dictum: "Those who seek their knowledge through the internet deserve all the disinformation they get."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,JotSC
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM

Stringsinger wrote, "As far as the "dreary old bromide" to insist that the term Semitic be applied to only Jewish people is prejudicial and racist."

Well, Frank, I know of no one here, nor at any place else I've heard or read, who has insisted that Semitic refers only to Jews. It doesn't and you know it! On the other hand, the terms "anti-Semite" and anti-Semitic has been the specific euphemism for anti-Jewish since the last quarter of the 19th century until very recently. The recent cooption of Palestineans and perhaps Arabs in general into that term has been by folks who wish to persuade the world that if one is on the side of Palestineans or Arabs then one cannot be an anti-Semite. That form of 'new speak' says a lot to me about the person who uses it, and defends their that usage--and what tells me is quite negative. We, at Mudcat, have had this discussion many times, and you've over over the past 10 or 12 years, and I believe you may have taken part in at least some of them.

Henceforth, I will consider your mal use of the term, or anyone else's, here, to be a priori proof of antisemitism against Jews and Israel, in its true meaning.

John

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,JotSC
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:44 PM

Steve Shaw wrote, "Not once in the sorry history of the Israel/Palestine conflict has Israel been serious about peace talks... Because Israel does not have to make one single concession, ever."

A Big Pinocchio for that statement! Just a couple of refutations: Israel returned Gaza to the Palestineans to try to get substantive peace talks from the other side, and got bombs as a Palestinean compromise; on several, perhaps many, occasions Israel has released Palestinean prisoners, by the scores and hundreds, hoping to gain peace talks, and getting little or no positive response.

John

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:09 PM

"Israel returned Gaza to the Palestinians". Jesus, man, you make it sound like it was an act of alms-giving or something. Gaza was a game not worth the bloody candle to Israel, that's why it was "returned" (and I remind you that it wasn't Israel's to "return" in the first place). And it didn't take long, once Israel had "returned" Gaza, for them to besiege it and impoverish one and a half million imprisoned people. Not to speak of the war crimes visited on that place in the years to follow. Still, "John", one wouldn't expect you to understand any of that, would one, especially as you seem rather prone to calling honest people liars. Are you one of the bloody mods here or something?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM

"But if you imagine that that fact obviates entirely the fact that hostility to that state can frequently be used as a useful but pretty well transparent veil for antisemitism, then you are not bringing to the matter the full use of your undoubted intelligence ~~~ and one can only sigh and wonder why!"

We know very well that there are those who try to hide antisemitism behind the veil of criticism of Israel's politicians, but it is disingenuous on your part to pretend that Bobad and K A of H are not countering every single criticism with that argument, and constantly trying (unsuccessfully) to manoeuvre us into using the term Jew or Jewish and thereby giving credence to their accusations.

Do you see them as they obviously see themselves, as the only non antisemitic posters on this forum, or would you disassociate yourself from their obvious hard wired "Israel, right or wrong" attitude?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 03:43 PM

"One notes that the Israeli leadership has pulled out of talks with the Palestinians because Hamas is back in the fold."

I would have thought that Israel might have chosen negotiators possessed of the intelligence to realise that, since Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and Fatah the government of the West Bank, any peace settlement would, of necessity, include both.

The fact that the talks broke down over this point means that either
1). The negotiators are incompetent and should be replaced, or
2). There was never any intention that the talks should succeed.

What's your guess as to which?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 07:37 PM

It really is very simple. The Israeli regime does not have to make a single tiny concession of any kind, nor does it have to refrain from any atrocities against Palestinians. It can do what it likes, without fear of sanction, apropos of land-grabbing and the perpetration of military atrocities. Why? because it has the unconditional backing of the United States for whatever it does. Oh yes, we get the little slaps on the wrist when they do something horrible, but those slaps on the wrist are for our consumption only, They mean nothing. When Obama visits Jerusalem, Netanyahu announces more settlement expansion. The US is Israel's poodle. Why? Largely because the US media is solidly behind Israel to such an extent that people in the US never get the story, and largely because there is a pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, that will ensure that any hopeful White House incumbent (or any other politician) will be toast the minute they brief against Israel. Oh yes. In the land of the free, the least democratic organisation in the western world holds all the cards. Ironic, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 AM

Steve Shaw, you are absolutely right, and that is why my support for Israel, 7 decades after all the youthful energy I & my generation expended in trying to achieve its existence, is now nil: to my intense horror & disappointment as detailed in my reply to Michaelr's excellent question on the Islamic Radicalism thread, 25 Apr, 1241 am.

Troubadour: I agree that some like bobad & Keith are overplaying the "anti-Israel = antisemitic" card, which I do my best to avoid doing; but I thank you for conceding that denunciations of Israel can, and often do, try to mask underlying antisemitism tout simple.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:53 AM

nor does it have to refrain from any atrocities against Palestinians

There is such a thing as international law that would deal with an atrocity if one was ever committed.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 08:54 AM

"There is such a thing as international law that would deal with an atrocity if one was ever committed."
Successfully neutralised by over 100 vetoes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 09:19 AM

" bobad & Keith are overplaying the "anti-Israel = antisemitic" card,"

I don't recall stating that anti-Israel = antisemitic. I have used as my guideline the definitions put forward by the EUMC, the Ottawa Protocol and by the eminent champion of human rights, Irwin Cotler. Once again here are some examples of what constitutes anti-semitism according to their definitions. I don't think it can be denied that some of our more rabid anti Israel posters have invoked one or more of these calumnies.
   
   * Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;

   * Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

   * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;

   * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

   * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.[40][41]

The EUMC added that criticism of Israel cannot be regarded as antisemitism so long as it is "similar to that leveled against any other country.

Also consider this argument from Irwin Cotler:

Cotler argues that classical antisemitism is discrimination against Jews as individuals whereas the new antisemitism, in contrast, "is anchored in discrimination against the Jews as a people – and the embodiment of that expression in Israel. In each instance, the essence of anti-Semitism is the same – an assault upon whatever is the core of Jewish self-definition at any moment in time."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:55 AM

"I don't recall stating that anti-Israel = antisemitic"
You have never stopped calling those who criticise Israel "antisemites BooBoo - even pulled up sites to back up your case
Senility approaches fast, it would appear.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 12:31 PM

'You have never stopped calling those who criticise Israel "antisemites BooBoo [SIC]"

I have used as my guideline the definitions put forward by the EUMC, the Ottawa Protocol and by the eminent champion of human rights, Irwin Cotler.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 01:45 PM

Uh-Huh.

I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government and who are thus by your definition and that of BooBad & the other Israeli apoligists on this forum "Anti-Semites".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM

"I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government...."

Oh yeah.....well I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the millions upon millions of Israeli citizens who support the policies of the current Israeli government.....so there.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:48 PM

No vetoes on "atrocities."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:55 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah - sure there isn't - after all, they ain't atrocities if they're vetoed, are they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:20 PM

Well let's just have a little look at some of these, boibabd.



The sencond part of thdt represernts a non seq

   * Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

   * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;

   * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

   * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:46 PM

That last message of mine got all garbled. Ignore. This is what I intended:


Well let's just have a little look at some of these, bobad.

Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor

The second part of that does not follow on from the first. I have never denied the right of Israel to have self-determination (to the chagrin of some of my allies, who might wish I were more hawkish on that point), but by their fruits shall ye know them. The Israeli regime, and the regimes going back seventy years, have all behaved in a racist manner towards Palestinians. In the name of the Jewish state they are denied the good land, freedom of movement and equal rights. Because they are not Jews. This may be uncomfortable for you but it is undeniable.   

Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Oh yes, a double standard applies all right. Any other nation that steals land from another people (let's have a look at Russia, for example) is heavily criticised and sanctioned. But not Israel. AIPAC will always see to that.   

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis

I never see that in rational discourse. Even rabid anti-Israel types would see that as barking mad.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

Give me an example. I've never seen one.

You are clearly an unfortunate victim of your one-sided media and of your pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC. Otherwise you wouldn't hbve posted this nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:38 PM

Steve: I am with you in much of your last post; but re this section -
...
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above. --
...
If you have follow other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads] with whom I have fre

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:45 PM

My last post got garbled too -- what is it with this thread! Should have read in full thus --

Steve: I am with you in much of your last post; but re this section -
...
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above. --
...
If you have followed other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads] with whom I have frequently clashed over his incurable insistence on doing just that. He has once or twice promised to refrain from doing so when I have pointed out how offensive it is. I hope he has stopped doing it now.

I refrain from naming him here, but he is following, and contributing to, this thread, and will know I mean him.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:11 PM

the millions upon millions of Israeli citizens who support the policies of the current Israeli government

No surprise there, BooBad, but somewhat irrelevant to the point under discussion, which is your labelling of anyone who opposes the policies of said government as antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:29 PM

"....your labelling of anyone who opposes the policies of said government as antisemitic."

Please re-read for comprehension.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:31 PM

I'll remind you of your last post next time you play the antisemetic card, BooBad. Count on it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:42 PM

You guys just give me too many opportunities.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:59 PM

So BooBad: you would then agree with the statement that the thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the actions of the current Israeli government are indeed antisemites.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:15 PM

Right Greg, you're a barrel of laughs....ha, ha.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:55 PM

I did say "most" people I know, Michael. There will always be the barking mad (and I'm not sure who you mean - not a mate of mine, one hopes!)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 08:00 PM

You guys just give me too many opportunities.

Yes we do, and you serially fail to take them, either because all you do is quote some irrelevant source or come up with one-liner quips which you think are clever but which are actually brainless. You are just a lazy, prejudiced and unreconstructed right-wing git, let's face it. And this is another opportunity you will fail to take in any meaningful sense. Go on, I'm waiting. Prove me wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Jimmy Carter, John Kerry and Their Best Friends
Posted: 04/28/2014 8:10 am EDT Updated: 04/28/2014 8:59 am EDT Print Article
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MORE: Israeli Palestinian Conflict Apartheid The New York Times Jimmy Carter Palestinian Territories Syria Violence John Kerry
When it comes to opining on Israel and the ongoing tensions and deliberations between Israelis and Palestinians, the views of the likes of President Jimmy Carter (his book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid) and Secretary of State Kerry among other dignitaries and pundits are not far apart. Their host of scribbles and public posturing serve to fortify each other: that the Israelis are intransigent, unbending and worst of all, by bandying those freighted words 'colonizers' added to Carter's and now John Kerry's 'apartheid', serving to portray Israel's presence in the West Bank as both an occupation and worse, imbuing it with the trappings of a colonial subjugation thereby helping to rationalize and validate any and all attempts at Israel's delegitimization.

What is routinely overlooked by these pundits, is that Israel's presence on the West Bank is the consequence of the massive mobilization of Arab armies on Israel's borders poised to attack Israel, thereby sparking the onset of hostilities in 1967. Israel's presence on the West Bank is referred to misguidedly and simply as "won by Israel in the 1967 war.." (Please see Thomas Friedman's New York Times Op-ed "Sheldon: Iran's Best Friend") with no mention that the genesis of the 1967 war was to defend the integrity of the Israeli state against a brace of Arab armies intent not only on eliminating Israel, but one could surmise -- given the myriad examples of Arab intolerance between Shia and Sunni in contemporary Syria and Iraq, the ongoing slaughter in Syria, given the teachings of Wahhabi scripture, Salafist indoctrination or the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Jew hatred taught in Arab madrassas or the vile bile emanating from Hamas Palestinians as well as from Hezbollah among others -- that a successful invasion by Arab States over Israel might well have resulted not only in the elimination of the Jewish State but also in the murderous destruction of its Jewish citizenry.

Far fetched you say? One needs understand in the deep consciousness of virtually every Jew is the reality of history, namely the profound perversity of Deutschland's Auschwitz.

Certainly there are many issues that both sides need to accommodate, but pundits rationalizing the isolation of Israel will only make the Palestinians more intransigent and the Israelis more fearful of the long shadow of history and their sworn determination that it will happen "Never Again."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raymond-j-learsy/jimmy-carter-john-kerry-a_b_5224846.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

…"Leading experts, including Richard Goldstone, a former justice of the South African Constitutional Court who led the United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict of 2008 and 2009, have argued that comparisons between the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and "apartheid" are offensive and wrong.

"One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues 'apartheid' policies," Goldstone wrote in The New York Times in 2011. "It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations."

In a 2008 interview with Jeffrey Goldberg, then-Sen. Barack Obama shot down the notion that the word "apartheid" was acceptable in a discussion about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians:

"There's no doubt that Israel and the Palestinians have tough issues to work out to get to the goal of two states living side by side in peace and security, but injecting a term like apartheid into the discussion doesn't advance that goal," Obama said. "It's emotionally loaded, historically inaccurate, and it's not what I believe.":

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-warns-israeli-apartheid-231200692--politics.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

Israeli apartheid

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM

So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?


That was 1923- and the Arab Muslims got sole rights to 76+ percent of the Mandate Palestine territory as their "Muslim Homeland" NO Jews allowed.

The remainder was to be the "Jewish Homeland"





Are you saying the Israel should be held to the same standard as the Arabs Muslims have been, or not?

If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:26 AM

So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?


Ah jaysus, BB- not that old canard again. Don'y you ever tire of straw men and putting words in other prople's mouths?

Raymond J. Learsy? I'm sure that the opinion of a a former Wall Street commodities trader is certainly an "expert" one on the Middle East and Israel. Not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM

GregF,



How is it a canard?

As usual, you make an unsupported comment that is in conflict with the facts.

That is a lie- which is your field of expertise.


Do YOU hold Israel to the same standards as you do the Arab nations? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

"If you have followed other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads]"
You persist in ignoring the fact that this comparison was made by one of the former heads of the Israeli Secret Service in the documentary, "The Gatekeepers" - an Israeli patriot - horse's mouth, so to speak.
I desisted from making that comparison in respect of your feelings the description - I no longer feel it necessary to do so as your hypocrisy as destroyed any respect I might once have had.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM

GregF,

Care to tell me of ANY borders accepted by the Arab nations AFTER the 1923 set?

If my comment is a canard, you can supply them- if not, you are being your usual scumbag lying self.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 02:54 PM

your usual scumbag lying self.

I love you too, BullshitBruce.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:01 PM

GregF,

YOU have never provided anything other than your statements that I have ever presented bullshit.

I have presented multiple thread posts by you showing you are a lying scumbag.


Waiting for your statement of what borders the Arab nations have recognized after 1923.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:40 AM

"So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?"

I think the 1967 borders would be adequate as suggested by Palestinians.

Peace talks could be negotiated if there wasn't a highly orchestrated military occupation of Palestinians. No one has shown me evidence to the contrary that makes any sense at all.

The trouble is that Israeli theocracy runs counter to Arab theocracy and at the root of the problem is a "holy war". Many people wish to deny this because they place so much importance in their "belief" systems.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:59 AM

The pre attack ( i.e., 1948 borders that were the result of a war) or the post attack ( 1967 borders that were the result of a war) borders?


And why should we NOT use the 1923 borders?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 05:52 PM

Lets go back to the 1099 borders, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:23 AM

The "Palestinians" did not accept the 1967 borders in 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM

OK, you don't like the 1099 borders. How about the 1149 borders, then?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM

If you don't like the past borders, why not just accept the PRESENT ones?????


ANd the Israelis can treat the Palestinians JUST like the Arabs treated the Jews in the West Bank in 1948, since you approve of the way the Arabs ave treated the Palestinians so much.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

the Israelis can treat the Palestinians JUST like the Arabs treated the Jews in the West Bank in 1948

But Mommy, Mommy! Johnny does it! Why Can't I ???!!!
[ NB: see Piaget's preoperational stage ]

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM

So, GregF,

You will continue to hold Israel to a set of standards that you will not allow to be applied to the Arab nations???

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM

See post 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AMBBruce- with particular attention to Piaget.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM

GregF,

If you cannot address the topic, or give a reasonable reply to posts, you will ( continue to) be only a waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 01:55 PM

Again:

If you object to 1923 borders because they are "old", why not start with TODAY's border instead of demanding that negotiations start with the pre-1967 borders?

Why is Israel being held to standards that the Arab nations are not held to?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:26 PM

Greg: Where, please, do you perceive 'genetic epistemology' coming into it?

Genuinely curious.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM

Only in ther sense of cognitive structures, and which level BBruce has apparently reached.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

Ah. Piaget always seems to me like most of Gallic philosophising* -- pompous asseverations of the obvious, with much pompous & portentous obfuscating vocabulary, and a faintly comic air of astoundingly complex conceptualisation having been laboriously uncovered.


~M~

*Most philosophy, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:55 PM

Did you mean to describe Piaget or Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:17 PM

What peace process?

It seems that Israel doesn't even want to accept "today's" borders.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:04 PM

Israeli spying on US at 'alarming level'
AFP May 7, 2014

The main targets for Israeli spies are US industrial and technical secrets, according to a report in Newsweek magazine

Washington (AFP) - Israel spies on the United States more than any other ally does and these activities have reached an alarming level, Newsweek magazine reported on Tuesday.

The main targets are US industrial and technical secrets, the weekly said, quoting classified briefings on legislation that would make it easier for Israeli citizens to get visas to enter America.

Newsweek said a congressional staffer familiar with a briefing last January called the testimony "very sobering ... alarming ... even terrifying", and quoted another as saying the behavior was "damaging."

"No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do," said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, according to Newsweek.

"I don't think anyone was surprised by these revelations," the former aide was quoted as saying. "But when you step back and hear ... that there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes, it is quite shocking."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:29 PM

"Officials said the internal review turned up NSA monitoring of some 35 world leaders, in the U.S. government's first public acknowledgment that it tapped the phones of world leaders. European leaders have joined international outrage over revelations of U.S. surveillance of Ms. Merkel's phone and of NSA's monitoring of telephone call data in France."

Spy vs. spy

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:09 PM

OK, BooBad - you're back to the toddler's defense: But Mommy - billy did it too!

See 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:28 PM

Or are you just singling out Israel Greggie because.........well we can guess why.

Industrial espionage

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:34 PM

Well BooBad - because I'm an anti-semite, of course.

More the usualI see - we've been through your & BSBruce's Mommy! MOMMY! nonsense before. Many times. Its boring- and its still bullshit.

Now, about that Israeli spying..............

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:39 PM

Oh, and BooBad- for your benefit, once again:

"No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do," said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, according to Newsweek.

"I don't think anyone was surprised by these revelations," the former aide was quoted as saying. "But when you step back and hear ... that there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes, it is quite shocking."

Its hardly ME that's "singling out Israel" -

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:14 PM

"(Reuters) - The U.S. National Security Agency is involved in industrial espionage and will grab any intelligence it can get its hands on regardless of its value to national security, former NSA contractor Edward Snowden told a German TV network."


Snowden says NSA engages in industrial espionage

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:21 PM

All industrialized countries that can get away with it do it but when the Jews do it well then that becomes worthy of a Greggie post.....of course it would.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:44 AM

but when the Jews do it well then that becomes worthy of a Greggie post

Sorry, BooBad.

1. "The Jews" aren't "doing it", as many have pointed out before me, you bigoted fool. The Israeli government is.

2. It isn't a "Greggie Post" - its a news story all over the various media outlets. Which story you apparently would like supressed.

3. Once again, with the toddler's defense: But MOMMY! - Billy did it FIRST! Come back when you have advanced beyond the mental age of two.

4. And again: No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do...........there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes

I know you dwell in a fact-free environment, but DO try to pay attention.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:01 AM

"4. And again: No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do...........there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes"

But MOMMY the Jews are better at it than anyone else.......that's not fair....waaah!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 14 - 10:11 AM

But MOMMY the Jews are better at it than anyone else.......that's not fair....waaah!

You really ARE an idiot, ain'tcha, BooBoo?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 11:50 AM

Israel isn't, and will never be, an apartheid state

Outside of the West Bank, in Jerusalem and elsewhere in Israel, Jews and Arabs mix freely and increasingly live in the same neighborhoods. Arabs serve in Israel's parliament, in its army and on its Supreme Court. And though discrimination in Israel , as in America, remains a scourge, there is no imposed segregation. Go to any Israeli mall, any restaurant or hospital, and you will see Arabs and Jews interacting.

This reality has not prevented Israel's enemies from branding it with the apartheid label. They do so not to achieve a better peace arrangement with Israel but to isolate it internationally and to eliminate it through sanctions. We Jews remember how each attempt to obliterate us, whether in the Inquisition or during the Holocaust, was preceded by a campaign to delegitimize us. People who practice apartheid are easily considered illegitimate.

Israel is not an apartheid state and will not become one, even if the Palestinians continue to reject peace. However unwittingly, those who associate apartheid with Israel are aiding the third and perhaps ultimate stage in the effort to destroy the nation. They are also committing a grave injustice to the millions of American and South African blacks who were the victims of true apartheid.

LA Times

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:14 PM

Whoops
ISRAEL IS ALREADY AN APARTHEID STATE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:48 PM

Why "Whoops", Jim? Two articles taking diametrically opposed views on a matter of definition, and how far the facts support the chosen definition of each author, is scarcely so convincing a proof that the second one, contradicting the first, must so definitively carry the argument to a triumphant conclusion, as to merit a "Whoops" to imply that the one who cited the first has been absolutely put in his place and left without a leg to stand on by the demonstrably unchallengeable factual and intellectual superiority of his interlocutor. Do better to fight it out with custard-pies at 20 paces than to imagine that you have overwhelmingly demolished anyone's argument simply by exclaiming "Whoops"!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:59 PM

Israel isn't, and will never be, an apartheid state

Yep, BooBad, Michael Scott Bornstein, former IDF paratrooper, member of the Zionist underground and a guy that strongly condemned the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict report, which determined Israel was guilty of possible war crimes.

You DO know what "Op-Ed" means, I take it? And what would one EXPeCT his viewpoint to be?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 01:29 PM

He does back up his opinion with facts so why don't you discuss those instead of trying to delegitimize him because he's a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 02:05 PM

...because he's a Jew.

Now, there ya go again with the anti-semitic name calling. Doesn't it ever get boring, BooBad, or at least tiring?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 14 - 02:44 PM

"Why "Whoops", Jim?"
You appear to be making a meal out of a crumb Mike
The "whoops" was for my own error of inadvertently sending a blank message, which seems to have been immediately spotted and removed by a passing forum fairy - nothing more.
All that remains is to choose between the two statements, whether to accept the word of a Zionist extremist and suspected war criminal when he says "wot, us? We didn't do it guv", or a human rights group (including many Jews) who express a widely held opinion that they definitely did - now let me see - eeny, meeny....
Interesting to see that little Boo-Boo is still holding "the Jews" responsible for all the Israeli regime's crimes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 May 14 - 03:06 PM

Ah -- sorry, Jim. (in fact, "Whoops!"). Misunderstood your Whoops; but am sure you can see why.

Apart from that; take your points, as you know. Though I don't think it's altogether the same sort of 'apartheid' as that from which the term derives, so that the word is perhaps just a bit emotive to match the strict actuality, it is indeed a far from ideal situation for any of the parties, however one may define it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 04:24 PM

So Greg, still unwilling to discuss the facts with which he supports his opinion - I can understand why.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 04:39 PM

Oh, and by the way, in listing what you consider to be the author's nefarious pro Israel activities you neglected to mention these: Israel's ambassador to the United States from 2009 to 2013, a senior fellow in international diplomacy at the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya and a fellow at the Atlantic Council.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 05:14 PM

I can understand why.

Why thanks, Boo! You DO realize the futility of my trying to teach a pig to sing!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 05:38 PM

Thanks Greg, your posts never fail to make me laugh, honestly, you always give me a good chuckle.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 14 - 05:01 AM

"It seems that Israel doesn't even want to accept "today's" borders." - Stringsinger

As the Arabs of Palestine rejected the two-state solution offered them by the UN in 1947 and opted for war instead, then the only officially demarcated and recognised borders of Palestine are those established in 1923. Under the terms of the original mandate the Jews could settle anywhere inside those borders, they could not settle anywhere east of the Jordan river.

When the Arabs of Palestine and all their Arab neighbours attacked the newly founded State of Israel in 1948, Egypt attacked, invaded and occupied Palestinian territory in Gaza, they illegally continued to hold this territory until 1967 when Israeli forces drove the Egyptians out and reclaimed Gaza and reunited it with the rest of the original mandated territory of Palestine.

In the same way the Jordanians attacked, invaded and occupied the Palestinian territories now commonly known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They too held this territory illegally until 1967 when Israeli forces liberated them from the Jordanian troops occupying them.

Ever asked what borders the Arabs of Palestine are prepared to honour and recognise? Let me see now:

1: Borders were "established" in 1949 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the second time by the Arabs of Palestine

2: Borders were "established" again in 1956 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the third time by the Arabs of Palestine

3: Slightly different borders were "established" in 1967 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the forth time by the Arabs of Palestine

4: Same borders as for 1967 were "established" in 1973 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the fifth time by the Arabs of Palestine - Israel starts process of bi-lateral peace talks trading land for peace with Egypt and Jordan

5: Borders proposed in 2000 at Camp David at a summit held involving Clinton, Arafat and Barak. Agreement almost reached - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the sixth time by the Representative of the Arabs of Palestine

OK then Stringsinger how many more times? How many more opportunities do you want to give the Arabs of Palestine to reject the two-state solution they seem to have conned you into believing that they want?

1947 to 2014 - I make that just over 67 years that both sides have had to sort this out. Over the course of those 67 years the Arabs of Palestine have consistently opted for armed conflict. So be it, the next time it kicks off nobody should step in to stop it until either one side or the other has "won" whatever it is that they think they will "win" - but whatever the case the rest of the world will have done with it.

Fact is that over the course of the last 67 years had all the aid that has been thrown at "The Palestinians" been put to good use Gaza should resemble Monaco in terms of wealth and prosperity - it is a shit hole because the leaders of the Arabs of Palestine chose to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 14 - 08:35 AM

Cast not your pearls Teribus, Stringsinger et al's views are not informed by facts, as is glaringly obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 14 - 09:11 AM

It is still worth putting up counter-propaganda.
Someone, somewhere may have their eyes opened.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 14 - 09:28 AM

One can only hope.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 14 - 08:08 PM

Anti Israel propaganda from the BDS crowd:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhuAh5Yb9f0

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 10:06 AM

Methodists to Sell Shares as a Protest Over Israel

By Laurie Goodstein June 12, 2014

The pension board of the nation's largest mainline Protestant denomination, the United Methodist Church, has decided to divest its shares in a British company that supplies security equipment to Israel for use in prisons and in the occupied West Bank....

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/13/us/methodists-to-sell-shares-as-a-protest-over-israel.html?ref=us

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 02:41 PM

Presbyterians in key moment on Israel, divestment
Associated Press
By RACHEL ZOLL 14 June 2014

NEW YORK (AP) — The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) appears to be on the brink of handing a major victory to a movement that wants institutions to wield their investment dollars against Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians.

The Presbyterian General Assembly, gathering in Detroit through next week, will consider withdrawing its investments from some companies whose products are used by the Israeli government in the Palestinian territories. Divestment advocates were narrowly outmaneuvered at the last Presbyterian convention in 2012, losing a crucial ballot by just two votes. They enter this year's fight with signs of increasing momentum, within and outside the church. ...

Rest of article:
http://news.yahoo.com/presbyterians-key-moment-israel-divestment-050919917.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

Anti-Israeli propaganda - faked by Israeli soldiers, no doubt
Jim Carroll

Antisemitic propaganda, no doubt

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:52 PM

That's what anti-Semites would say no doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 05:16 PM

Meanwhile Israel's trade with Muslim countries is flourishing:The badly kept secret of Israel's trade throughout the Muslim world

I guess Egypt missed the BDS train as evidenced by the recent 11 billion dollar gas deal with Israel: Egypt's Lost Power

Buycott companies Jew haters want you to boycott:Buycott

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 05:16 PM

Which anti-Semites, Boo- the Methodists or the Presbyterians?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM

"The hate behind boycotting Israel is no secret. Even the founder of BDS, Omar Barghouti, admits the end goal of the BDS movement is not peace — it's the destruction of the state of Israel as a Jewish state."

Faces Of Hate:The Extremists and Bigots Behind BDS

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 06:37 PM

So the U.S. Methodists and Presbyterians are extremist bigots out to destroy Israel?

You ain't amusing any more, Boo - you're psychotic. Get help.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:00 PM

It doesn't take much for some people and groups to buy into lies and propaganda especially when Jews are the target, as evidenced by some posters here.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:25 PM

"Why is Israel being held to standards that the Arab nations are not held to?"

Because Israel is the only nation whose government is still annexing land illegally, which it has been doing continuously since 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:43 PM

During the recent "peace talks", Israel was busy stealing more of the West Bank.

Is it any wonder that the Palestinians who are crammed into two effective prison camps, don't trust the Israeli government?

I certainly wouldn't trust anyone who was patting me on the back while nicking my watch and wallet, no matter what nationality.

And there has to be a limit on how long the Nazi atrocities can be used as an excuse for incarcerating a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:49 PM

"During the recent "peace talks", Israel was busy stealing more of the West Bank."

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 11:15 PM

It doesn't take much for some people and groups to buy into lies and propaganda

As evidenced primarily by yourself, Boo. Get help.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:23 AM

"There are no illegal settlements "
There are two groups of people in the Middle East - the Arabs and the Israelis.
Both have been there for millenia and both have a claim (by birthright) to live there.
One has, from the inception of the state of Israel, steadily drive the other out by force of arms.
Some facts and figures:
The total number of displaced Palestinians worldwide is 7.1 million, including:
6.6 million refugees, and 427,000 internally displaced persons (IDPs)
67 percent of all Palestinians worldwide are refugees or IDPs
4,766,670 refugees registered with the UNRWA
UNRWA definition of Palestinian refugees: "People whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." refugees in the Middle East who have no right to a place in their historical homeland.
That is the situation human beings should be addressing, not scraps of paper - anything else is militarism and politics.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:37 AM

The one who keeps trying to drive the other out is the Arab.

More Jews were displaced than Arabs.
They just were the ones allowed to settle by their own people.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

No -- you 'get help', GregF....

....to learn how to stop being such a dogmatic repetitive bore, and put a proper argument together for once.

Never known such an assertive "that's-what-I-think-so-that's-all-that-needs-to-be-said" merchant!


~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:08 AM

"People whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict."
.,,.
How many times have we been thru all this before?

Who started that conflict in 1948, then, after the Israelis had agreed to the UN Partition Plan?

Who displaced all those Palestinian Arabs by telling them to move out of the way just while they polished off the Israelis, and then they could come back?

Who then lost the conflict, for all their bravado & superior numbers, leaving all their Palestinian oppos stranded in their own countries [where so many of them, all these years later, are still in refugee camps!]?

So what should the Israelis have done -- said to them all "Sorry we beat all those thousands who were trying so hard to help you by wiping us all out, but come on back home just the same; and maybe you can have another go in a year or two"?

Oh, come on!

It's a pity the Israelis have now blown it with their aggressive bullying. But it won't help make them change these ways by going on with this selective-memory account of how their state first emerged, and how much help for it they got from their friendly helpful neighbours, will it?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:00 AM

"Who started that conflict in 1948, then, after the Israelis had agreed to the UN Partition Plan?"
How many times do we have to go through this
A plan that was foisted on both sides and satisfactory to neither was foisted on the legitimate occupants of Palestine by a Britain anxious to rid itself of a problem of history - as with Ireland, the result was permanent warfare.
Whatever the politicians of all sides did in 1948 - the end result was as the figures described.
Continuing military expansionist aggression aimed at creating a mono-cultural state is adding to those numbers daily.
To suggest that those people have no right to their former homeland is equivalent to claiming that those who were defeated in any war you care to mention had no right to return to theirs.
When will you people get it into your heads that this is about the suffering of impoverished human beings and not about 70 year old bits of paper drawn up by politicians - or is might always right?
"Come on" indeed.
Can I recommend another film 'When I Saw You" - set in one of the Palestinian refugees camps?
It depicts the conditions of refugees forced into tent towns in the desert, some having existed there for over twenty years, by Israeli military aggression
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

The ones in the camps in Lebanon & Syria weren't forced there by Israel 20 years ago, but by their Arab mates 'rescuing' them 66 years ago. It's a bloody crying disgrace to every Arab state in the Middle East that the great-grandchildren of those Palestinians told to move out temporarily, no more than a month or two, to make way for the conquering Arab hordes who were going to drive Israel into the sea, wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, & all the rest of their grand rhetoric, are still in camps. And the countries they were forced out to still haven't done anything to try to absorb them -- which they could have done 100 times over if they knew their arses from their elbows & knew anything about anything except making a lot of fierce noise & killing one another. Just look what's going on in Syria.

And they have votes in the UN General Assembly along with all the other stupid bloody pathetic tinpots who keep on passing their ɷ·hole 'resolutions'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:18 AM

History and military might Mike - nothing more
The cause of the original problem is shared by all sides; the responsibility for the present crisis should reflect that fact.
The alternative is to leave the victims were they are and continue adding to them, as is happening at the present time.
Israel is about as good at peace talks as you are with humanity - not very
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM

to learn how to stop being such a dogmatic repetitive bore,

Now THAT'S amusing, Boo - coming from a one trick pony such as yiourself.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM

Correction: That should read "M and Boo" and "yourselves"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM

Poor Greg, I'm sure he doesn't grasp the irony of his previous posts.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:20 AM

Israel has become a huge militocracy, a chief exporter of weapons systems, a repressive regime to Palestinians who are second class citizens in that country. The idea that they
offer any olive branch at all is entirely risible. BDS represents a non-violent approach to the problem.

The ridiculous notion that israel has given Gaza money and aid is belied by the current situation which is that only if Palestinians give up any hope for a two-state solution and succumb to the dictatorship of the Israeli government, then the Israeli government can declare a bogus "peace". It's been unfortunate that the Palestinian reaction has been to
throw rocks and meager rockets at an army of tanks, phosphorous bombs, bulldozers, weapons of mass destruction and an oppressive military operation, since the only solution, which is one offered by BDS which makes it credible in the world is a non-violent one in addition to the various international aid ships attempting to reach Gaza with needed medical supplies.

BDS is about actually helping Israel to survive rather than become a pariah to the international community. But hard-liners of the militocracy seem unable to grasp this fact.

In short, Israel is shooting itself in the foot.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

Previously it was a theocracy now it's a militocracy. It is in fact a democracy - the only one in a neighbourhood of theocracies and militocracies. More inane buzzwords from comrade Stringsinger.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 01:34 PM

Previously it was a theocracy now it's a militocracy.

No conflict there - its BOTH.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:36 PM

And they're both lies but that doesn't stop the haters from repeating them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:17 PM

Come off it Bobad.

Any country which needs to insist that every citizen serve in the armed forces and retain arms at home, is a militocracy by definition.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:35 PM

Like Switzerland, Troub? Or have they 'seen the light'?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:43 AM

Militocracy by definition eh Troub - I guess you don't know the definition of militocracy.

By your erroneous definition these countries would be militocracies:

    Armenia
    Austria
    Belarus
    Azerbaijan
    Bermuda
    Brazil
    Myanmar (Burma)
    Cyprus
    Denmark
    Egypt
    Finland
    Greece   
    Iran
    Israel
    North Korea
    South Korea
    Mexico
    Norway
    Russia
    Singapore
    Switzerland
    Taiwan (ROC)
    Thailand
    Turkey
    Ukraine

I would say that your attempt to demonize the only democracy in the Middle East has failed - you'll have to keep digging

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:07 AM

To Simon Shaw/Troubadour/Greg F & Stringsinger -

A Question: "Why after NINE Years under a Palestinian Government of their own choosing are there EIGHT Refugee Camps in GAZA?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:01 AM

You talkin' about the Occupied Territories there, T-bird?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:10 AM

As far as I am aware the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinians there decided to elect Hamas as their local rulers as opposed to Al-Fatah the party of choice for those Palestinians living on the West Bank.

So can you tell me why after NINE years of Palestinian self-government in GAZA there are EIGHT Palestinian Refugee Camps on Palestinian soil?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:37 AM

Hint, T-Bird: Were have thousands of Palestinians 1. been displaced from & 2. been denied basic civil rights??

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM

>A Question: "Why after NINE Years under a Palestinian Government of their own choosing are there EIGHT Refugee Camps in GAZA?

The answer is self-explanatory. The Palestinian Government is not allowed to exist by Israel.
Somehow the implication that there are refugee camps in Gaza is that Israel has done
something constructive for Palestinians which is a false premise.

The problem lies much deeper having to do with the religious ideologies of both Judaism and
Islam. At present, they are mortal enemies and this influences their foreign policies.

Israel is not a democracy but a theocracy. Unfortunately, the same can be said for a majority of Islamic dominated societies that insist on Sharia law. The US is struggling to remain a secular society by those who are attempting to Christianize it.

The answer is to get religion out of the public sphere.

Religion=militocracy as each belief system attempts to weaponize in its fight for it own ideology.

Today, antisemitism must include all the mid-east tribes including Islam for the epithet to make any reasonable sense.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:58 AM

"Israel is not a democracy but a theocracy."

More lies to delegitimize and demonize the only democracy in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM

Israel is not a theocracy and never has been. Members of some religious parties have served as members of some of its coalition governments, but they have never formed any sort of majority. The government has always been secular in its legislations. In what sense do you consider it any sort of "theocracy", in the way that several Islamic states are, where it is imams (members of the priesthood) who form the government? I don't think you know quite what a theocracy is.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:24 AM

OK I will ask the question that you both have "ducked" yet again:

"Tell me why after NINE years of Palestinian self-government in GAZA there are EIGHT Palestinian Refugee Camps in GAZA on Palestinian soil?"


Greg F's evasion - "Hint, T-Bird: Were have thousands of Palestinians 1. been displaced from & 2. been denied basic civil rights??"

Greg old son in the war of 1948, the war that the Arabs of Palestine chose to fight instead of accepting the Two State Solution on offer not only thousands of Arabs were displaced, Jewish communities were forced to flee and were displaced too. After the 1967 "Six-Day War" over 820,000 Jews were forcibly dispossessed of their property and forcibly deported from Arab countries - But, guess what Greg F? There have never been refugee camps set up inside Israel - all who fled were assimilated into the community at large. A community that respects and guarantees basic civil and human rights under a secular government and a common law.

Wasn't the same in the areas taken by force by the Egyptians (GAZA) or by the Jordanians (West Bank & East Jerusalem), both of whom stole Palestinian Territory and imprisoned the Palestinians inside refugee camps set up on Palestinian land, where they were denied any basic civil rights, not being allowed to integrate and not being allowed to work - you see they had to "maintained" as political pawns in abject poverty so that the begging bowl could be shoved forward to "help" the "poor refugees" - those poor refugees however saw little or none of the aid given though did they? Check Tosser Arafat's bank balances.

Civil rights in Gaza under Hamas? I think there were quite a few supporters of the rival political faction Al-Fatah taken prisoner by Hamas in Gaza received free flying lessons from the top of a high-rise buildings that was the Hamas contribution to Arab civil rights in area under their control.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:52 AM

Further to Teribus' post above. It wasn't in fact "the Arabs of Palestine", even insofar as they constituted any identifiable single entuty, who rejected the two-state UN proposal of 1948. Left to themselves they might well have accepted it. But it was their ethnic "brothers" in all the surrounding states -- Saudi, Lebanon, Transjordan, Egypt, Yemen, Iran, Iraq - who forbade them to do so, ordering them to leave their homes 'temporarily' while they marched in and destroyed the new-found State of Israel. As it turned out, they weren't quite such efficient "Drivers of the Jews into the Sea" as they had anticipated. With results still being felt, as we all know.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:48 AM

Stringsinger if you cannot answer the questions put to you why not just say so.

My Question to Stringsinger: "Why after NINE Years under a Palestinian Government of their own choosing are there EIGHT Refugee Camps in GAZA?

Stringsingers "self-explanatory Answer: The Palestinian Government is not allowed to exist by Israel.

Really??

1947 - The UN proposed a Two State Solution to resolve what they though of as irreconcilable differences. The Jews of Palestine accepted that proposal, the Arabs of Palestine (Encouraged by their Arab neighbours) refused.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number One thrown away by the Arabs.

1949 - The UN brokered a ceasefire that was accepted by Israel, who did comply with its stipulations. Egypt and Jordan stole large chunks of land now surprisingly claimed by the Arabs of Palestine with no Arab nation acknowledging the right of the State of Israel to exist. Why? Because despite signing the ceasefire their intent was still geared to driving the Jews of Palestine into the sea.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Two thrown away by the Arabs

1956 - Another UN Brokered ceasefire that the Arabs of Palestine and their Arab neighbours were forced through military defeat to sign. Once again no intention whatsoever of complying with it on the part of the Arabs. Once again the Israelis comply fully. Egypt and Jordan get to hold onto Palestinian land that they had stolen in 1948 and on that Palestinian land they imprison Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Three thrown away by the Arabs

1967 - Another war provoked by Israel's Arab neighbours resulting in a crushing defeat for the pan-Arabist forces led by Egypt. Israel recaptures and liberates the former Palestinian lands stolen by Egypt and Jordan in 1948. Parts of Lebanon and Syria are taken and held in order to improve Israels defences and make her more secure from attack. Read the three NOs declared by the Arabs in the Khartoum Declaration of November 1967 and then tell me if any Arab State or entity intended ever complying with the UN brokered ceasefire following the "Six Day War".

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Four thrown away by the Arabs



1973 - Arabs attack Israel in what became known as the "Yom Kippur War" Once again the Egyptians and Syrians suffer a humiliating defeat of epic proportions, the Jordanians and the Lebanese this time have the good sense to keep out of it. At the end of this war it starts to dawn on the Egyptians and the Syrians that they are never, ever going to defeat the IDF.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Five thrown away by the Arabs

1970 - Tosser Arafat's unsuccessful attempt to steal and take over the Kingdom of Jordan with his Palestinian refugees.

1979 - Egypt - Israel Peace Treaty - Land for Peace - A treaty that has held and lived up to by both sides. Palestinians now basically cut loose by Egypt.

1987 - Start of the First Intifada {1987 to 1991} - Again the Arabs elect to fight rater than negotiate.

Opportunity Number Six thrown away by the Arabs

1988 - Jordan relinquishes its claims to the West bank and East Jerusalem and strips West Bank Palestinians of Jordanian citizenship. Palestinians now basically cut loose by Jordan.

1993 - Oslo Accords agreement on many things reached by Arafat could not deliver on recognition of the State of Israel

Opportunity Number Seven thrown away by the Arabs

1994 - Jordan - Israel Peace Treaty - A treaty that has held and lived up to by both sides.

2000 - Camp David Summit - Again agreement almost reached but Tosser Arafat snatches defeat from the Jaws of Victory:

"I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." - Bill Clinton, President of the United States of America

Opportunity Number Eight thrown away by the Arabs

OK Stringsinger how many more examples do you want? How many more opportunities will be thrown away by the Arabs?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

Greg old son in the war of 1948...

And here I thought we were discussing the current situation, T-Bird, not events of 66 years ago. Talk about "evasion".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM

Address the questions asked and the points put forward.

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of the State of Israel are fully fully protected and guaranteed by the secular state of Israel.

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of Hamas in side GAZA are basically stuffed.

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank are basically stuffed.

Same goes for the Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 10:22 AM

The whys and the facts are irrelevant to those driven by hate.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of the State of Israel are fully fully protected and guaranteed by the secular state of Israel.


Uh-Huh. T-Bird & Boo, you need to explore the difference between what laws may be on the books, and how these laws are - or are not - applied.

A study of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Ammendments to the U.S. Constitution and the period 1875 to the present would be an instructive parallel example.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM

The US aid to Israel and the sale of US weapons to Israel HAS to stop COMPLETELY!

If the US stops forcing Israel to buy its weapons, then Israel will be able to use it's own ingenuously manufactured weapons, which will give Israel's economy a MASSIVE boost. Israel's "alliance" with the US is detrimental and crippling to Israel on all fronts, especially the economic front.

A brilliant piece by Canadian journalist Lawrence Solomon on the subject: Israel's growth industry

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:00 PM

As we all know, minnow, you're barking mad.

I note that Mr Obama is getting apoplectic about the capture of a single Israeli soldier (apparently forgetting the thousands of Palestinians, including hundreds of women and children, held without charge in Israeli jails - great democracy, huh?). Pity he can't get quite so apoplectic about the slaughter of hundreds of children in Gaza. I note how nasty he can be about the Russians, who might, indirectly, have been somewhat responsible for about 300 deaths in that aircraft rocketing. Yet he can't get all nasty about them Israelis, who have killed five times as many as were killed in that aeroplane. Forgive me for concluding that Mr Obama dare not even raise the slightest finger of criticism against Israel, as, if he did, he and his party would be toast at the next election, thanks to AIPAC and their fellow-travellers. In the Great Democracy, the Land Of The Free, one of the most undemocratic organisations one could possibly imagine holds all the reins of power. Brief against Israel? Sure, go ahead, but, if you do, you're toast. My belief is that most yanks even on internet forums dare not even breathe AIPAC's name. I'm certainly not expecting it here. Hands up for democracy, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 03:55 AM

"Address the questions asked and the points put forward."
Probably not the answer you want, but you can't please all the right-wing nutcases all of the time
THE INEQUALITY REPORT

ISRAEL'S APARTHEID STATE

SETTLEMENTS

BEDOUINS

WALLS

As I said, not the answers you were looking for - better luck next time!
"As we all know, minnow, you're barking mad."
Encourage Israel to develop its arms indistry - barking mad just about sums it up -

CUSTOMER FOR ISRAELI ARMS

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:57 PM

Israel, by its attacks on Gaza, has created hundreds, if not thousands, of terrorists. Not my words but those of Paddy Pantsdown. Jesus, at last a politician of any colour who has the temerity to call Israel's actions disproportionate, indiscriminate and foolish. Paddy's always been a bit of a twat but kudos to the man for this. I suppose he doesn't have to worry about any Israel lobby breathing down his neck these days.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:13 PM

The Israeli economy is booming, as can be seen from the comments of a very wide variety of sources and experts (which John Kerry and many others should read and recognize):

• "Technology companies and global investors are beating a path to Israel and finding unique combinations of audacity, creativity, and drive everywhere they look. Which may explain why, in addition to boasting the highest density of start-ups in the world (a total of more than 3,850 start-ups one for every 1,844 Israelis) more Israeli companies are listed on the NASDAQ exchange than all companies from the entire European continent." – Dan Senor and Saul Singer

• "Israel, the land of milk and honey, is now also the home of business success, opportunity and major growth." – Hedge Fund Billionaire Henry Swieca

• "If you're going to the Middle East to look for oil, you can skip Israel. However, if you're looking for brains, look no further. [Israel] has a disproportionate amount of brains and energy." – Warren Buffet

• "[Israel is] the most important high-tech center in the world after the US." – Eric Schmidt

• "Tel Aviv has been named the second best place in the world in which to launch a high-tech startup company." – Viva Sarah Press

• "Israel has an enormous cash reserve of some $80 billion." – Hezi Sternlicht

• "Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most highly developed and industrialized sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world." – InvestInIsrael.gov

• "So why Tel Aviv? The city is overflowing with software developers and venture capital. Larger companies, including Google, have set up offices there. Facebook is now there, too, after acquiring facial-recognition developer Face.com in June." – Bloomberg.com

• "The Israeli startup scene needs little introduction. Tel Aviv is rapidly becoming one of the most innovative tech hubs on the planet, vying with London, New York and Berlin as Silicon Valley's second." – Monty Munford

• "Israel has a highly educated entrepreneurial community (40% with Masters/PhD vs. 42% in Silicon Valley)." – Zack Miller

• "From VC funds to conglomerates, foreign government partners to a smart international workforce, Israel has it all." – Ron Hershco, Brooklyn & Israel financier

• "Swiss research institute IMD releases World Competitiveness Yearbook, ranks Bank of Israel first among world's central banks." — Olga Viniar

• "It should be noted that Israel's ranking first in terms of the market's durability in the face of crises is the direct result of the Treasury and the Bank of Israel's actions, which withstood the pressures and did not pump funds into failing organizations and financial systems as the US and Europe did." – Uriel Linn

• "Israel is good at creating international cooperation for funding in the R&D programs they establish. And they provide a great ROI when done correctly." – Ann Liebschutz

• "Israel has one of the world's fastest growing developed economies." – Moital.gov.il

• "Israel's output growth remains relatively strong, unemployment is at historically low levels, its high-tech sector continues to attract international admiration, and new off-shore gas fields have come on stream." – 2013 Israel Economic Survey

• "We find ourselves in an age when both data is bursting forth via the Internet, and the economy continues to become more globalized than ever. For us it is a challenge, but even more, it is an opportunity." – Benjamin Netanyahu

• "Steve Ballmer [Microsoft's CEO] calls Microsoft as much an Israeli company as an American company, because of the importance of its Israeli technologies. Google, Cisco, Intel, Microsoft, eBay…live and die by the work of [their] Israeli teams…. Israel, a tiny nation of immigrants torn by war, has managed to become the first technology nation…." – Wall Street Journal

No matter what detractors of the Jewish people there have been throughout history, the Jewish people have survived. The economy of Israel will continue to thrive and grow – and when there is a will, there is a way. Indeed, as my mother used to say: "This too shall pass."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 08:03 PM

Naturally, minnow, as an antisemite yourself you are confusing criticism of "Jewish people" (which you will not hear on this forum) with criticism of the actions of the Israeli regime (which, I'm proud to say, you will hear quite a lot of). If you can't see the difference, which patently you can't, then you are beyond help (which we know anyway). As an aside to your litany apropos of how well Israel is doing (and good luck to Israel for that), bear in mind (if you have a mind: you have this tendency to quote an awful lot of other people's minds, I find...) that Israel's healthy condition is largely predicated on favourable trade deals with the US and the EU, not to speak of having to spend very little on their military, as the US pays for that (about three billion per annum at last count). Not bad for a desert nation of about eight million. I hope you won't mind the inconvenience of having this stark reality thrust into your unseeing face, minnow. I fully expect any response (don't rush - I'm not bothered) to both ignore what I've said and to include extensive and unattributed quotes from God knows where you get your lies from. Nighty night. Don't let the truth bite.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 08:31 PM

Indeed, as my mother used to say: "This too shall pass."

If only I could believe that about YOU, Boo.

As my grandmother would have said, were she here today to witness your antics: "What a putz!"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 08:58 PM

Just since 2001, Israel's GDP has grown 1,000 percent and its economy is now larger than Egypt's economy despite the fact that Egypt has 10 times Israel's population.

At the same time, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas have received billions of dollars in foreign aid and support. But instead of joining in Israel's modern economic boom and encouraging partnerships, the political leaders have clearly invested in rocket launchers and terror tunnels instead.

In other words, as Israel's economic success grows and the economic opportunities for Arabs in Israel grows, so, too, does the violent strategy of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad.

And as long as politics trumps economics in the Middle East, there will never be peace.

Israel's economy is soaring—why isn't it bringing peace?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:14 PM

blow-bad

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 12:58 AM

Hey Steve Shaw seems you like boycotts, I noticed you've been boycotting the Israel/Palestine thread the 5pm hour yesterday. Hope the door didn't hit you in the ass on the way out. Less than 3 hours you're having truck on this boycott thread with the same people you want to ignore. You don't do boycott very well, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM

"Israel's economy is soaring—why isn't it bringing peace?"
Does it not strike you that trying to sell nuclear weapons to an aggressively fascist nation might have a teensy-weensy bit to do with this?
Recently I put up a link to Israel's 'Drone' industry and how they were complaining it wasn't growing fast enough.
The great contribution to modern society, the Uzi is one of theirs.
They have once again used chemical weapons in the form of white phosphorus in Gaza and have used chemical sprays to evict farmers from their lands - doesn't auger particularly well for a future ban on chemical weapons.
"Israel, by its attacks on Gaza, has created hundreds, if not thousands, of terrorists. "
For terrorists, read "opposition to Israel's terrorism".
What are you on Booboo?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 04:09 AM

You also told us they had used flechette weapons Jim, but no such things have been found.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 05:55 AM

"You also told us they had used flechette weapons Jim, but no such things have been found"
Found, photographed and produced here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:00 AM

ONE MORE TIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:18 AM

Not convincing.
No such have been produced from over a thousand casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:20 AM

Also no phosphorous burns.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:06 AM

But with the Jews coming to build up and improve the land, hundreds of thousands more Arabs poured in to get the jobs and opportunities with the Jews that they could not get elsewhere in the Arab world.

And, according to all the economic lessons we have learned about jobs and harmony, there was peace.

For more than 40 years the Arabs and Jews worked together peacefully to drain malarial swamps, remove salt from the soil and plant millions of trees. The result was mandatory Palestine was able to absorb the massive increase in Arab and Jewish population that came into the area to join in the effort.

In the 1920's a larger industrial boom began to mirror the agricultural progress and the economic prosperity really started to become apparent.

So, naturally one would think that the peaceful co-operation between Arabs and Jews increased — or at least continued — as well.

But the opposite happened.

Just as mandatory Palestine began a 400-percent increase in businesses creation, a 1,000-percent increase in the number of jobs and 10,000-percent increase in capital investment, the peaceful co-existence between Jews and Arabs was shattered. After an anti-Jewish riot in Hebron in 1923, bloodshed became more and more common. And even though the economic progress and opportunity never ceased, peace has never really returned since.

Ibid

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

"No such have been produced from over a thousand casualties"
Piss off Keith - photographic evidence.
The United Nations has been asked by its own observers to consider considered whether the use the Israelis has put these god-awful weapons to in Gaza breaches International Law
You really have gone round the rabid bend.
"Also no phosphorous burns."
ILLEGAL WEAPONS
What's the going rate for being an accomplice to murder and atrocities?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:15 AM

No flechette casualties, no phosphorous casualties, and "nail shrapnel" could only come from Hamas rockets.
Try not to be so gullible Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:38 PM

Hey Steve Shaw seems you like boycotts, I noticed you've been boycotting the Israel/Palestine thread the 5pm hour yesterday. Hope the door didn't hit you in the ass on the way out. Less than 3 hours you're having truck on this boycott thread with the same people you want to ignore. You don't do boycott very well, it seems.

Piss off, wanker-stalker. I'll post when I want and where I want. Get over it, and, either contribute to the conversation or just bugger off.

But instead of joining in Israel's modern economic boom and encouraging partnerships, the political leaders have clearly invested in rocket launchers and terror tunnels instead.

Well you see, minnow, Israel also invests in weaponry big-time, in case you haven't noticed. Maybe you think that it's OK for rich countries with big armies to invest in weaponry but not for piss-poor nations under siege. I love your double standard. But, unlike Hamas, the Israeli regime doesn't have to make any big decisions about how to use their dough. It's all provided by you, the yanks, no questions asked, even when they're slaughtering kids with gay abandon. Three billion spondoolies per annum at last count, for a tiny desert state, all for weapons. Not bad, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:28 PM

imagine

more

ah yes

and...

this

Ok... y'all go back to your bickering now...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 04:23 AM

"No flechette casualties, no phosphorous casualties, and "nail shrapnel" could only come from Hamas rockets.
Try not to be so gullible Jim."
You have the statements from the observers - you have the evidence - you even have the photographs
You are cleraly ****** insane - thank you for representing the Israeli regime so well
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:14 AM

We have a photo. of some flechettes in someone's hand and some stuck into a wall.
No casualties by flechette or phosphorous.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 03:15 PM

Wonder why I get echoes of "Israel calling - Israel calling" every time you post.
The report of their use has been carried widely, except in the U.S, apparently
However. Israel has not offered your excuse, nor have they denied their use.
You are now propagandizing on their behalf to save them the trouble
You are a rabid moron
Jim Carroll

4:59        Randy Talbot E-mail Print
The London Guardian reported Sunday that "The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in Gaza."[1] -- B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, says that although these weapons are not banned per se, "other rules of humanitarian law render their use in the Gaza Strip illegal. -- One of the most fundamental principles is the obligation to distinguish between those who are involved and those who are not involved in the fighting, and to avoid to the extent possible injury to those who are not involved. -- Deriving from this principle is the prohibition of the use of an imprecise weapon which is likely to result in civilian injuries." -- The London Independent also wrote about Israel's use of flechettes.[2] -- So did the Belfast Telegraph, which also posted a graphic RT video showing wounded Palestinians and interviewing Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor, who called Israeli attacks "immensely disproportionate."[3] -- A Google News search shows that discussion of their use also appeared in articles published in Israel, New Zealand, Canada, China, France, Lebanon, Iran, and Russia. -- We have only been able to locate one article published in U.S. media about the use of flechettes, published by Newsweek, where their use is presented as merely an unproven allegation.[4] ..

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

Jim, Russia Today is not a reliable source.
They will have easy access to handfulls of flechettes.

And, here is the header for that Guardian piece.
"Israel using flechette shells in Gaza
Palestinian human rights group accuses Israel military of using shells that spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal darts"

I am sure the other papers reported the same source, which 2 weeks later has not been substantiated by anyone else.

If it is true, no real evidence for it has yet emerged.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:14 PM

Is Adolf Hitler back ?? it seems that he lives in Israel ....

:(

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:42 PM

Sad.....very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:40 PM

Is Adolf Hitler back ?? it seems that he lives in Israel ....

Sad but True, Boo - the abused have become the abusers.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:05 PM

Hi Skarpi! I don't know if you noticed that I quoted Peter Ustinov somewhere above: "The Jews were the first victims of the Nazis; Palestinians the second...."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:14 AM

"Russia Today is not a reliable source."
The report came directly from the Guardian and was reproduced exactly as reported - that report if freely available for access.
GUARDIAN
"which 2 weeks later has not been substantiated by anyone else."
Nor has it been denied by Isreal - you alone, having first claimed that there is nothing wrong with using this obscene weapon on civilians,and have moved on to denying its use
You are defending it without them having done so
"ISRAEL CALLING - ISRAEL CALLING"
Brings back wartime memories brrrr!!
There is no reason whatever to believe that Israel is not using such weapons - they have used them before along with other obscenities
VERMONT
That's what terrorist states do - and that's what terrorist defenders like you support.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:03 AM

"Jim, Russia Today is not a reliable source.
They will have easy access to handfulls of flechettes."

Haven't you realised yet Jim, that K A of H is the only person in the world whose sources are reliable.

If you made the above comment about one of his, you would immediately be accused of attacking the source rather than the substance.

It's the way he is able to twist all arguments to his own xenophobic messages.

For him, a level playing field is a forty five degree slope, with him at the higher end!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:59 AM

Jim, the Guardian just reported that "Palestinian human rights group accuses Israel military of using...."

It has not been picked up since.
You know how thoroughly reported the hospital casualties are, but no-one has been found with flechette injuries.

It has all the hallmarks of a propaganda story.
You always believe all that shit without question but most of us wait for the truth to come out.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:02 AM

Peter ,
the abused have become the abusers.
the Nazi Germany killed and abused alot of Jews on WW2 we all know that
but , what are the Jews doing know ? ..killing soldiers is one thing
but killing small children ,

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:03 AM

it should " now " not know ...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:19 AM

It's always helpful, and more accurate, to refer to the Israeli regime rather than "Jews" carrying out these atrocities. There is a very good ad published in today's Guardian from Jews For Justice For Palestinians. The broad brush is not appropriate. Many Jewish people are revolted by the actions of the Israeli regime. And I wasn't aware in any case that Israel is acting in the name of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:09 AM

"It has not been picked up since."
Doesn't matter a toss - they've used them before, they have used them again - why shouldn't they.
You have given your blessing of their use
What more evidence can we need?
You are an arse-licking moron who doesn't even wait for the arse you are licking to fart before claiming it doesn't smell.
I suppose you know Lady Varsi has resigned from the Government in protest to the British Government's arse-licking approach to Gaza?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

"Hamas has been caught using schools as military sites"
Doesn't matter a toss - they've used them before, they have used them again - why shouldn't they.
You have given your blessing of their use
What more evidence can we need?



Right, Jimmy boy?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:46 AM

I wasn't aware in any case that Israel is acting in the name of religion.

Well, I dunno about that- don't they claim that God gave them the land & they occupy it by God's will?

Gott Mit Uns, ja?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:56 AM

THE ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP B'TSELEM HAS RECORDED NUMEROUS OCCASIONS WHEN THE ISRAELI ARMY HAS FIRED FLECHETTE SHELLS, BOTH IN LEBANON AND GAZA. THE SHELL RELEASES THOUSANDS OF TINY METAL DARTS THAT CAUSE HORRIBLE INJURIES TO ANYONE OUT IN THE OPEN.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:02 AM

Supporting link?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:13 AM

Above Brucie the Bru-ser - it's a repeat of what I've already put up - get somebody to read it for you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:22 AM

In other ( honest) words, YOU do not have a supporting link.


Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:48 AM

Oh dear - nobody home to read it for you?
One more time
VERMONT
I neither expect a response to the facts contained in the article nor a retraction from you
As for lying - as I said - you8 have described the Palestinian people as less than human - you have advocated that they be driven into the desert where they can be cared for by their own kind, you have openly and enthusiastically supported the ethnic cleansing of the Bedouins, their being driven from their traditional homes, the use of chemicals and high powered water-cannons to force them to vacate their lands and the Prawar plan to force them to resettle on a poison filled site.
Calling me a liar is fairly insignificant from someone who makes David Irving look like a rabbi
Feel free to continue.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

The government minister responsible for faith affairs has resigned from government here in The UK, in protest over the luke warm condemnation of Israeli aggression.

Baroness Warsi said she was sickened and could not support David Cameron's government as they appear partisan and tacitly accepting Israeli aggression of innocent civilians.

Looks like it isn't just Keith's "lefty liberals" who don't like murder, oppression and accusation then.. A conservative peer in government has stood up for the Palestinian people too.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:00 AM

Sorry, Jimmy boy.

By the SRS Rule, the information in a propaganda site like that is NOT valid unless supported by other, non-biased sources. So provide THOSE- CNN, even BBC (not quoting Hamas).

You have stated that ALL posts by Israel are false, so I will state that ALL posts by Hamas are suspect- UNLESS you are claiming that you get special rules AGAIN.


Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:01 AM

Jimmy,

"As for lying - as I said - you8 have described the Palestinian people as less than human - you have advocated that they be driven into the desert where they can be cared for by their own kind, you have openly and enthusiastically supported the ethnic cleansing of the Bedouins, their being driven from their traditional homes, the use of chemicals and high powered water-cannons to force them to vacate their lands and the Prawar plan to force them to resettle on a poison filled site."

Yes, those statements above that you have made ARE lies. Repeating them does not make them true.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:40 AM

You have the facts of the use of horrific weapons and you have had those throughout this discussion.
Your last example came from an Israeli source - Antisemitic no doubt!
Israel possesses flechette weapons and has used them on numerous occasions, as it has white phosphorus and napalm.
The use of Palestinian missiles is reprehensible, as is any weapon used on civilian areas - but they measure pretty small when compared to the approaching genocide being indulged in by the Israeli fascist regime (not just my description - go read some of the Jewish writers who are saying exactly that).
You have been given the facts of Israeli terrorism aimed at non combatants - I didn't expect for a moment you would accept it - atrocity deniers tend not to.
"Repeating them does not make them true.
Have told you were to find them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:47 AM

Jimmy,

The ONLY side advocating genocide has been Hamas- ACCORDING TO THEIR CHARTER.

Israel has not inflicted anything like the level of killed to justify the use of the word "Genocide"

Other ARAB nations have killed HUNDRED OF TIMES more of a population, and you don't call that Genocide- JUST WHEN ISRAEL is responsible ( according to you0 for the deaths.

YOUR silence on the 160 children killed BY HAMAS in building those tunnels to attack Israel tell all here how much YOU care about Palestinian civilians.

NOT ONE WORD OF COMMENT FROM YOU about Hamas killing them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 11:58 AM

Jim, most modern armies use flechette shapnel as it is a legal weapon and just a new kind of shrapnel.

You have given your blessing of their use

No, I just explained that their use is not illegal, and that no reputable journalist has reported their use in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:57 PM

The ONLY side advocating genocide has been Hamas...

But then you have those that are actually COMMITTING genocide, Bullshot.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 12:59 PM

You mean the Islamists that Jimmy and you are so quiet about?


I guess just because they are killing only 100 times as many civilians as Israel they get a pass for you and your ilk. After all, THEY are not the Evil Israelis...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 01:11 PM

"Jim, most modern armies use flechette shapnel as it is a legal weapon and just a new kind of shrapnel."
You defendit its use - then you denied it was being used - The Isralis have refused to deny that they are using it
You are an apologist shit - they are murdering scum
"Israel has not inflicted anything like the level of killed to justify the use of the word "Genocide"
You are getting nearer the mark Beirdie by admitting that one is as bad as the other - to what extent is debatable and immaterial.
Israel has juust slaughtered around 2,800 human beings, those who were armed possessed inferior arms and were poorly trained
Israel has a highly trained army ans sophisticated equipment - they have used what they have to kill civilians, destroy homes and basic necessities of living - they are murderous scum.
If Israel has the right to 'defend itself' in this manner, then they can have no complaints when their victims retaliate to their murderous behaviour
If it hadn't been for the U.S. veto they would have been tried for war crimes long ago.
David Irving roll over, you've out-denied him and you've debased the Jewish people you claim to be speaking for.
If you are Jewish, I hope you get six million visitors every time you fall asleep.      
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 01:19 PM

So, Jimmy boy.


YOU seem quite happy with Hamas killing 160 children to make attack tunnels, to attack Israeli civilians.


Dead civilians ON BOTH SIDES, so you must be having orgasms.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:01 PM

You defendit its use -

No, I just explained the legal position.

then you denied it was being used

No, I just said there was no evidence for it except an accusation by some Palestinian organisation, and Russia Today.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:14 PM

" According to the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, IDF tanks fired six anti-personnel munitions at the village of Khuzaa on July 17, resulting in the injury of one Palestinian woman. [10]"



6 tank rounds, with deadly flechettes, and they were only able to injure ( NOT KILL) one woman.

Boy, what active proof of genocidal intent.




We had best send the World Court to Michigan- they PLAY WITH KNIVES there!

KENTWOOD, Mich. (AP) — A 9-year-old boy who was repeatedly stabbed by a 12-year-old boy at a playground in western Michigan has died, police said Tuesday.

OBVIOUS GENOCIDAL INTENT!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM

But then, to Jimmy, Israel WOUNDING one Palestinian woman is a WAR CRIME, while HAMAS killing 160 Palestinian children is fine by him.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:42 PM

You mean the Islamists that Jimmy and you are so quiet about?

No. I dont. And you know it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:55 PM

You ARE very quiet about the Islamist atrocities.
Why is it always and only Israel with you people?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 05:14 PM

"Why is it always and only Israel with you people?"

That's not hard to figure out.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:54 PM

You ARE very quiet about the Islamist atrocities

Define "Islamist", FKWT.

And we're discussing Israeli atrocities here- take your bigoted Islamaphobia elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:23 PM

Greg, the stated aim of Israel in this particular conflict is to quell the rocket attacks and to destroy the tunnels (I don't believe a word of that, but hey ho}. There is no religious link there. In the broader context there is, but my remark pertained to this particular sorry episode. It is best to avoid saying that "the Jews do this, that or the other". There are Jews who want nothing to do with it and there are Jews who actively oppose it. Best to refer to the actions of the Israeli regime.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:32 PM

I've never quite understood why Baroness Warsi is a Tory. Anyway, she's joined Pantsdown, as well as the ever-vacillating Miliband, in speaking against Israeli actions in Gaza. Hey, yanks! Our politicos here can do that. Risky, but they can do it. Your politicos, almost to a man, dare not utter a word against Israel. The Murdoch media show and, worse, AIPAC, are looking over their shoulders at all times. Whaddya think, yanks? Is there one amongst you, in the Land Of The Free, who dare breathe AIPAC's name? What are you scared of?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:56 PM

I've never said "the Jews" in any context whatsoever, Steve.

This concerns the Government of Israel, and how it chooses to throw its weight around, aided by billions of dollars in aid from the US with no strings attached whatsoever -- which had there been strings, we wouldn't be experiencing this annihilation of Palestinian children & other civilians.

This is another failure of U.S. foreign policy in the same vein as the children fleeing the carnage in Central America that the U.S. has created by destabilizing the region since Reagan and the "Contras".

Some assholes never learn.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:22 AM

"160 children to make attack tunnels, to attack Israeli civilians."
There is no indication of this having happened apart from "Elders of Zion" and "Jewsnews" blogsites.
Do you have any actual evidence that it did?
If it did, of course I am not in favour of it, but it rates pretty small next to the Children, women, elderly and sick who have been deliberately targeted by Israeli troops in the last few weeks - fully supported by you and yours.
Keith has both attempted to deny and support the use of flechettes - describing them as faked, Hamas missiles, legal and non-existent - not necessarily in that order.
He now appears to be back-pedaling rapidly.
You appear to be acknowledging their us - time for a 'singing from the same hymn-sheet' meeting I think.   
Watched a discussion by media people describing the tsunami of condemnation coming from reporters, doctors, aid workers, neutral observers..... all overwhelmingly blaming the Israeli regime for the massacre which has taken place.
They said that Israel was fully aware of the condemnation but just didn't give a fuck - more our less sums up your little bunch of 'humanitarians'
Keep goose-stepping your way into the history books lads.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:02 AM

Keith has both attempted to deny and support the use of flechettes - describing them as faked, Hamas missiles, legal and non-existent - not necessarily in that order.
He now appears to be back-pedaling rapidly.

Completely made up false accusations.
Why do you do that?
I denied nothing, but pointed out that no reliable source has reported it.
I supported nothing, but explained the legality.
Your link spoke of "nail shrapnel" which I pointed out is only found in Hamas made missiles.

You can not attack anything I say, so you have to make shit up.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:18 AM

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, Jack the Sailor spoke of attempts to prevent Israeli aggression and poo bad immediately pointed out if you don't support Israeli aggression you are anti semitic.

Such is the flavour of threads when fascist sympathisers are let loose.

It went downhill from there...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:28 AM

"I denied nothing, but pointed out that no reliable source has reported it."
Which is as good as denying it - it's use was reported worldwide and it was a known fact from Israeli sources that it was an Israeli weapon
"I supported nothing, but explained the legality."
Describing it as coming from Hamas is supporting Israel as having used it.
You are a lying atrocity-apologist turd
You have just claimed you don't lump all Muslims together - you ahev described "all male Muslim Pakistanis" as implanted pervets
Stop fouling up this forum with your lies
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:59 AM

it's use was reported worldwide

No. Some Palestinian group's accusation was widely reported, but then the story died.

and it was a known fact from Israeli sources that it was an Israeli weapon
Ye. All modern armies have it.

Describing it as coming from Hamas is supporting Israel as having used it.
I described "nail shrapnel" as only to be found in Hamas missiles, which is true.

You have just claimed you don't lump all Muslims together - you ahev described "all male Muslim Pakistanis" as implanted pervets

I first made clear that it was nothing to do with them being Muslims.
I then reported that people from that culture blamed the culture, giving examples.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 07:25 AM

Amnesty.
"CUBE-SHAPED SHRAPNEL
Amnesty International delegates in Gaza also found evidence of the use of a new type of missile, seemingly launched from unmanned drones, which explodes large numbers of tiny sharp-edged metal cubes, each between 2 and 4 mm square in size. This purpose-made shrapnel can penetrate even thick metal doors and many were seen by Amnesty International's delegates embedded deep in concrete walls. They appear designed to cause maximum injury and, in some respects, seem to be a more sophisticated version of the ball-bearings or nails and bolts which armed groups often pack into crude rockets and suicide bombs. The signature of these new missiles, in addition to the deadly tiny metal cubes, is a small and deep hole in the ground (about 10 cm or less in diameter and up to several metres in depth) and a small quantity of shrapnel made of very thin metal, seemingly from the missile's casing.

An X-ray of a young man who had been injured in one of these missile attacks, which killed a dozen youths and injured several others, showed the tiny metal pellets still embedded in his thigh.

A 13-year-old girl who was asleep in her bed; three primary school-age boys who were carrying sugar canes; two young women on their way to a shelter in search of safety; a 13-year-old boy on his bicycle; eight secondary school students who were waiting for the school bus to take them home; an entire family sitting in the courtyard of their home, and many others were all killed in attacks with these "
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/012/2009/en/5be86fc2-994e-4eeb-a6e8-3ddf68c28b31/mde150122009en.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:44 AM

Jimmy boy,


"160 children to make attack tunnels, to attack Israeli civilians."
There is no indication of this having happened apart from "Elders of Zion" and "Jewsnews" blogsites.
Do you have any actual evidence that it did?


"
thescroll_header
THE SCROLL
Hamas Killed 160 Palestinian Children to Build Tunnels
Militant group used child labor to construct underground network in Gaza
By Myer Freimann|July 25, 2014 10:15 AM|Comments: 0
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An Israeli soldier is seen at the entrance of a tunnel dug by Palestinians beneath the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel on October 13, 2013. ( DAVID BUIMOVITCH/AFP/Getty Images)
As the death toll of Operation Protective Edge rises, the deaths of children are firmly in the spotlight—and rightly so. It pains all reasonable people to hear of children dying as the consequence of war. Hamas and its supporters display gruesome pictures of dead and wounded children in order to gain sympathy for their portrait of Israel as the villain intent on killing Palestinians. In response, Israel cites the need to stop Hamas from firing thousands of rockets at its own children, who are being forced to live in bomb shelters, as well as the need to eliminate the tunnels that Hamas dug into Israel in order to carry out terror attacks against Israelis. One tunnel opening was found underneath an Israeli kindergarten.

But who built those tunnels? The answer is Hamas, of course—using some of the same children who are now trapped under fire in Gaza.

The Institute for Palestine Studies published a detailed report on Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon in the summer of 2012. It reported that tunnel construction in Gaza has resulted in a large number of child deaths.

"At least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials"

The author, Nicolas Pelham, explains that Hamas uses child laborers to build their terror tunnels because, "much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies".

Human rights groups operating in Gaza raised concerns about child labor in the tunnels as far back as 2008. Hamas responded by saying it was "considering curbs." Following Operation Cast Lead in 2009 Hamas softened its position and the Interior Ministry established the Tunnel Affairs Commission (TAC) which, "In response to public concern at a rising toll of tunnel casualties, particularly of child workers…issued guidelines intended to ensure safe working conditions." No mention is made in the report of the conditions that would result for both Palestinian and Israeli children from building tunnels that would be used to launch terror attacks.

Nor does it seem that Hamas paid much subsequent attention to ensuring the safety of the child workers that it used to build the tunnels that would wind up endangering the lives of many in Gaza. On a tour of the tunnels in 2011, Pelham noted that, "nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels.""

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/180400/hamas-killed-160-palestinian-children-to-build-terror-tunnels


http://palestine-studies.org/jps/fulltext/42605

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:49 AM

Thus, the Journal of Palestine Studies (edited by President Obama's pro-Palestinian friend Rashid Khalidi) reported in 2012 that Hamas uses children to help dig tunnels into Israel. The finding appears in a paper called Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon: The Unintended Dynamics of Israel's Siege.

The author of the paper, Nicolas Pelham accompanied a police patrol in Gaza during December 2011. He reported that "nothing was done to impede the use of children in the tunnels, where, much as in Victorian coal mines, they are prized for their nimble bodies."

He also found that "at least 160 children have been killed in the tunnels, according to Hamas officials." And, as noted, this was as of the end of 2011. How many more Palestinian children have died digging tunnels for Hamas since then?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 08:50 AM

"Not only are Hamas misappropriating much of the humanitarian aid supplied to Gaza—800,000 tons of cement were used to construct the terror tunnels into Israel—they are also directly exploiting and endangering Gaza's youth in their construction and operation."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 04:39 PM

I've never said "the Jews" in any context whatsoever, Steve.

I know! I wasn't having a pop at you. I was making the point that, in this particular phase of the conflict, religion hasn't really reared its ugly head.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:13 PM

...religion hasn't really reared its ugly head.

But Steve, there's that pesky "God gave thiis land to me" business, isn't there? Israel claims that it has a divine right to the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 05:42 PM

I'm not denying it, Greg. Just sayin' that I haven't heard God invoked much in this particular conflict. I would imagine that God's quite relieved about that. ;-) Let's move on!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 14 - 06:54 PM

I would imagine that God's quite relieved about that

You bet!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 01:38 AM

Me? Naaahhh! Lost interest in the whole stupid business years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 02:13 AM

""I denied nothing, but pointed out that no reliable source has reported it."
Which is as good as denying it" - Christmas

Ehmmm Christmas no it is not as good as denying it and you damn well know that - it means exactly what it says - that the source is questionable, it is unsubstantiated and as such cannot be accepted at face value.

"- it's use was reported worldwide and it was a known fact from Israeli sources that it was an Israeli weapon" - Christmas

Oh good, then perhaps you could supply references to back-up those claims (You won't of course, because they don't exist - you just make shit up). Just because something is reported does not necessarily mean that it is true or even factual (Doubt that Christmas? Then tell us how true and factually accurate all the "Reports" were of the hundreds of refugees supposedly killed in Jenin)

For those who don't know the story, or those who wish to conveniently forget it:

"The Battle of Jenin took place in the Jenin refugee camp in the West Bank in April 1–11, 2002. Israel Defense Forces (IDF) entered the camp, and other areas under the administration of the Palestinian Authority, during the Second Intifada, as part of Operation Defensive Shield. The Jenin camp was targeted after Israel alleged that it had "served as a launch site for numerous terrorist attacks against both Israeli civilians and Israeli towns and villages in the area."

On April 7, senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat suggested to CNN that some 500 Palestinians had been killed in the camp. Five days later, when the fighting stopped, PA Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman told UPI that the number was in the thousands, hinting, along with other Palestinian figures, that Israel had snatched bodies, buried Palestinians in mass graves and under the rubble of ruined buildings, and otherwise conducted on a scale compatible with genocide."

Stories of hundreds of civilians being killed in their homes as they were demolished spread throughout international media. Subsequent investigations found no evidence to substantiate claims of a massacre, and official totals from Palestinian and Israeli sources confirmed between 52 and 54 Palestinians, mostly gunmen, and 23 IDF soldiers as having been killed in the fighting"

Take what the Palestinian Authority and Hamas tells you with a truckload of salt. Between 640 and 960 Hamas rockets fall short and land inside Gaza and they kill or injure nobody? Yeah "And the Band played believe it if you can".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:43 AM

"Ehmmm Christmas no it is not as good as denying it and you damn well know that "
Ehmmmm Buzz Lightyear - yes it damn well is.
Fragments corresponding exactly with those emitted from flechette weapons were photographed following claims of their having been fired
Doctors reported a woman had been treated for injuries and had removed one of these fragments
Of course, these could have been planted by Hamas who happened to be on hand and carry around such fragments in their pockets just in case - after all, it is a well known fact that these weapons are regularly used by Hamas and is a standard piece of their equipmentNOT
An Israeli humanitarian group has reported the use of flechette weapons and white phosphorus on civilians in the past - Israel has never denied such reports and they have not made such a denial here.
ISRAEL HAS, TO DATE, NEVER DENIED THE CLAIMS THEY THEY HAVE USED FLECHETTE WEAPONS - THAT IS A ONE-MAN ENTERPRISE ON KEITH'S PART
So what have we got - the use of a weapon, reported world-wide, not denied by those accused of having used it, first defended by Keith as being "legal" (though, according to the rule-book. its use is confined to military targets and is illegal when used randomly against non-combatants) then denied - by someone who has appointed himself unofficial spokesman for a regime which has just slaughtered approaching 2000 impoverished human beings (overwhelmingly civilians, largely made up of women, children elderly and infirm), destroying their homes, hospitals, schools, public buildings..... and leaving them with the future prospect of squatting on cities which resemble the ruins of Agidir following the earthquake.   
Personally - what I would take "with a pinch of salt" is the word of someone who claims to have taught children, but who sets himself up as self-appointed defender of such a bunch of murderous monsters - lets face it - who would trust their kids anywhere near such a disturbed headbanger?   
He is now joined by a toy soldier who has to have the key in his back wound up before he marches off to the local to tell his mates stories of his military exploits.
Who is a girl to believe, surrounded by all this expertise??
"For those who don't know the story"
THE FACTS OF THE BATTLE OF JENIN
What on earth has a weapon that is acknowledged as being in the arsenal of the Israeli army and has been used by them in the past and has not been denied as having been used here, got to do with Jenin - a murderous battle that was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of civilians, and was overturned as being described as a massacre on appeal, largely due to the intervention of the U.S. who has used its U.N. veto to offset criticism of Israel on over 100 occasions?
Jim Carroll
I'm sure you'll find enough typos in there to divert the attention from what has just been said - best get the spellcheck going now, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 03:55 AM

The link to the reports of the use of flechette weapons and white phosphorus from Israeli human rights group B'Tselem has been provided at least twice in these discussions and part of is was cut' and pasted to save people following the link
If you are going to participate in these discussions, please have the courtesy of getting someone to read what has been written beforehand - it really does help!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 04:24 AM

All modern armies have flechette munitions.
There is one highly dubious claim of one person in gaza being wounded by one, so even if it was true(!) it is still only one single wounding.

Greg,
But Steve, there's that pesky "God gave thiis land to me" business, isn't there? Israel claims that it has a divine right to the territory.
No it does not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 05:52 AM

"All modern armies have flechette munitions."
So ****** what - they are a barbaric invention and illegal when indiscriminately used in civilian area
You have supported their use as "legal"
You have denied their use, even though Israel haven't
Now you are defending them again because "everybody's got one".
You really need to decide which room in the asylum you wish to claim as your own.
Jeeze - talk about "stop digging"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 06:28 AM

what - they are a barbaric invention and illegal when indiscriminately used in civilian area

All weapons are silly!

You have supported their use as "legal"

No, I have explained the fact of their legality.

You have denied their use, even though Israel haven't

No. I just said that no convincing evidence for their use here has emerged, and it hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:02 AM

Since when was bombing that contravenes UN resolutions legal in any sense of the word?

"Legal" when used internationally as a word is an indicator of various conventions, and delegated to UN to comment on a situation. Conflict as opposed to war, and this is conflict, means it has no legal right through The UN. The USA of course feel that hosting The UN is enough, responsible participation seems to be optional.

Or at least till now. Obama and Kerry seem to be stirring and hearing the grinding of the beans.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:09 AM

"All weapons are silly!"
Then why are you supporting their use on behalf of somebody who hasn't bothered its arse to do so for itself?
"No, I have explained the fact of their legality."
Pompous pratt
"No. I just said that no convincing evidence for their use here has emerged, and it hasn't."
Used before, standard issue - not denied - YES IT HAS and you are one sick cookie for questioning its use when the terrorist state accused of using it has not done so themselves
Sicko-phant
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 07:36 AM

"Ehmmm Christmas no it is not as good as denying it and you damn well know that " - Teribus

"Ehmmmm Buzz Lightyear - yes it damn well is." - Christmas

Only to you Christmas - only to you.


Fragments corresponding exactly with those emitted from flechette weapons were photographed following claims of their having been fired"

Ah you mean these Christmas:

Flechettes fired in Gaza but who knows when?

Note how pristine they are Christmas. References and photos showing used flechettes 2001, 2002, 2008 and in 2009 - the photo showing them stuck in the wall in 2009 show what they look like after they have been fired.

Story brought to the world by the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights - Psst Christmas if any front organisation for Hamas told me that the Moon wasn't made of green cheese I'd want that checked. Their reputation as lying bastards is unparalleled.

"Of course, these could have been planted by Hamas who happened to be on hand and carry around such fragments in their pockets just in case"

Wouldn't put it past them, if they thought that it would serve their purposes.

"An Israeli humanitarian group has reported the use of flechette weapons and white phosphorus on civilians in the past"

AND? Your point is?

"So what have we got - the use of a weapon, reported world-wide, not denied by those accused of having used it"

So what do you actually have? Uncorroborated evidence of the use of this weapon, based on use on previous occasions and lack of denial of use on those previous occasions. That is what you have got.

"The munitions are not prohibited under international humanitarian law"

The Apache Helicopters in Afghanistan used these munitions to great effect against the Taliban in the "Green Zone" of Helmand.

"a regime which has just slaughtered approaching 2000 impoverished human beings (overwhelmingly civilians, largely made up of women, children elderly and infirm), destroying their homes, hospitals, schools, public buildings..... and leaving them with the future prospect of squatting on cities which resemble the ruins of Agidir following the earthquake."

Awwww jayzus when it comes to emotive claptrap Christmas you are in a class of your own. I have heard civilian casualty claims by Hamas apologists in the past that proved to be total bollocks - I will wait and see. By the way do all these Palestinian refugees segregate themselves in accordance with the tenets of their religion whilst attempting to shelter from this IDF/Hamas onslaught? Do they split up into women and children in one place and men in another? - If they did that (plus seemingly unerring pure bad luck) would explain the preponderance of fatalities falling amongst young males aged 17-29 wouldn't it Christmas?

"For those who don't know the story"
THE FACTS OF THE BATTLE OF JENIN
What on earth has a weapon that is acknowledged as being in the arsenal of the Israeli army and has been used by them in the past and has not been denied as having been used here, got to do with Jenin - a murderous battle that was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of civilians

What has it got to do with it Christmas?? What has it got to do with it?? How about it proving that they have a well documented track record of being lying bastards when it comes to making claims relating to what the other side did? What about it having to do with them having a track record of being lying bastards when it comes to reporting "civilian" casualties?

So Jenin was "a murderous battle that was responsible for the deaths of many hundreds of civilians" was it?

1: "The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55 (27 of whome were combatants)."

2: " Human Rights Watch completed its report on Jenin in early May, stating "there was no massacre,"

3: "Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre." Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for."

4: "A BBC report later noted, "Palestinian authorities made unsubstantiated claims of a wide-scale massacre,"

Mind you he would probably have then been subsequently sacked by the Beeb for reporting that.

5: "A reporter for the Observer opined that what happened in Jenin was not a massacre."

So then Christmas imagine that the UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the BBC and the Observer all say quite clearly no massacre yet you Christmas sat on your boney arse on the west coast of Ireland know better than all those who were there? Ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Victor
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:43 AM

I see that there is a lengthy discussion here regarding Israel's alleged use of flechettes during its' conflict with the Palestinians. I think that this discussion naturally leads to the following question for BDS supporters: If you support the BDS movement on the grounds that Israel is using excessive military force against Palestinians, and assuming that you are not applying moral double standards, how do you explain that you are not boycotting the USA for the following reasons:
-Dropping nuclear bombs on Japanese cities in WW2, killing 100,000's of civilians.
-Occupying Iraq for nearly a decade and killing 100,000's of civilians.
-Nowadays, using killer drones for extra-judicial executions in Pakistan, with 100's of civilian casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Aug 14 - 09:52 AM

"How about it proving that they have a well documented track record of being lying bastards when it comes to making claims relating to what the other side did? "
You mean wartime propaganda that no other country ever indulges in?
Give us a break
It is impossible to estimate how many died at Jenin - the first thing the Israelis did was to ship out as many bodies as they could so the actual death- count could not be established.
It was eventually stopped when the U.N, ordered them to desist.
The actions of an honest broker with nothing to hide.
The Israelis behaved in similar fashion following the Sabra/Shatila massacre.
Having provided transport and weapons for the Falangists and opening the gates to the compounds so they could commence their work, they provided illumination so the rape and butchery could continue over three days and nights.
They were eye-witnesses to the massacre - soldiers and medical staff testified to that fact, notably an American Jewish nurse.
When the butchery was over, the Army provided bulldozers and manpower to bury the dead before they could be counted, eventually erecting a sports stadium over the mass graves.
They then provided transport for those they had got to do the dirty work, allowing them to escape conviction.
Following Jenin, the Israelis were accused by the U.N.of war crimes - as far as I know, no charges were ever brought.
If wartime propaganda makes those who indulge (every nation that has ever gone to war), what do you reckon that sort of butchery makes Israel my little Termite
"Time to go to sleep now, Little man, you've had a busy day"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:50 AM

""How about it proving that they have a well documented track record of being lying bastards when it comes to making claims relating to what the other side did? " - Teribus

You mean wartime propaganda that no other country ever indulges in?" - Christmas

Only thing is Christmas is that you believe that propaganda to be 100% truth even when you know that it is propaganda.

The 72-hour ceasefire is about to draw to an end in Gaza - a ceasefire that the Israeli Government was quite happy to extend but Hamas was insistent that it did not. Already in the last two hours of the "ceasefire" two rockets have already been fired into Israel - If that assault continues then the IDF has every justification in going back in and every single casualty and fatality that occurs from this point forward is down to Hamas.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM

"Only thing is Christmas is that you believe that propaganda to be 100% truth even when you know that it is propaganda."
The only thing is that denying a thing to be propaganda doesn't make it so my little soldier - didn't they teach that in T.A. training?
"a ceasefire that the Israeli Government was quite happy to extend but Hamas was insistent that it did not."
Unless Israel agrees to the immediate removal of the blockade, the removal of the Berlin walls and a discontinuation of the humiliation and suffering it has imposed on Gazans, those who have been slaughtered by srael will have died for nothing.
Let Israel agree to the U.N. taking charge of the heap of rubble it has reduced Gaza to and return to the negotiating table under their supervision and a cease-fire will be more than just the surrender Israel and its hangers-on are looking for - anything less would be back to square one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:39 AM

Missed a bit
"You mean wartime propaganda that no other country ever indulges inw
PROPAGANDA
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:23 AM

"Unless Israel agrees to the immediate removal of the blockade, the removal of the Berlin walls and a discontinuation of the humiliation and suffering it has imposed on Gazans, those who have been slaughtered by Israel will have died for nothing."

Pssst Christmas all those Palestinians who have died HAVE died for nothing - that is precisely what Hamas has delivered and it is not going to deliver anything else. As long as they persist in their jihad and in their charter they offer no hope only death. If that is what the people of Gaza want then so be it - their choice, Israel and its population are not just going to roll over and die, they quite rightly will fight for their independence and their right to live a life free from attack and free from the threat of attack and as that seems to mean killing those who would mount and support such attacks then that will be what happens.

"Let Israel agree to the U.N. taking charge of the heap of rubble it has reduced Gaza to and return to the negotiating table"

The UN would not take Gaza on for all the tea in China Christmas, they are not that F**kin Stupid - you on the other hand are. By the way what would the UN take Gaza on with? I believe that the Israeli's are only too willing to return to the negotiating table, it is Hamas that are the ones who seem reluctant.

On the subject of this negotiating table could you give us an inkling as to what Hamas would be prepared to negotiate with the Israelis? Timings and ports of embarkation possibly, or perhaps method and means of extermination? One thing for certain Hamas will never negotiate anything remotely to do with a Two State Solution.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:49 AM

They were eye-witnesses to the massacre - soldiers and medical staff testified to that fact, notably an American Jewish nurse.

Notably NOT an American Jewish nurse.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:18 AM

"It is impossible to estimate how many died at Jenin - the first thing the Israelis did was to ship out as many bodies as they could so the actual death- count could not be established."

Really? Any proof to substantiate that Christmas - or is this just some more of your made up shit, that only you are aware of - the thing that sort of pisses all over your claim is the following:

1: "The UN report to the Secretary General noted "Palestinians had claimed that between 400 and 500 people had been killed, fighters and civilians together. They {The Palestinians} had also claimed a number of summary executions and the transfer of corpses to an unknown place outside the city of Jenin. The number of Palestinian fatalities, on the basis of bodies recovered to date, in Jenin and the refugee camp in this military operation can be estimated at around 55 (27 of whom were combatants)."

The claim picked out in bold in the above passage was bollocks because:

3: "Amnesty International's report concluded "No matter whose figures one accepts, "there was no massacre." Amnesty's report specifically observed that "after the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on April 17, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on April 3, 2002. WITHIN FIVE WEEKS ALL BUT ONE OF THE RESIDENTS WAS ACCOUNTED FOR."

Now then Christmas if all but one of the residents were accounted for by UNRWA who were all these hundreds of civilians that the IDF was supposed to have killed and shipped out to some unknown location? Or were the Palestinians lying? I somehow think given their track record that it was the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 10:18 AM

"Notably NOT an American Jewish nurse."
Piss off Keith - you have read her testimony and that of the other nurse.
If they were not eyewitnesses they were, and still are liars
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 11:03 AM

I have read her testimony and that of the doctor who was with her in the camp.
Neither were eye witness to the massacre.
It was over when they emerged from the hospital and from the hospital nothing of it was seen.

You know this Jim because we have been over it all before.
You knowingly lied to boost your case.

What does that say about your case Jim?
What does it say about you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 12:33 PM

"Neither were eye witness to the massacre."
That is your interpretation not theirs and It is not the interpretation of the Israelis - once again you are taking it upon yourself to invent arguments on their behalf
Up to the point she and her friend came out in the open with her accusations about the role the Israelis played in the massacre she was one of your claimed supporters, then, just like Christine Kineally in your Irish Famine arguments, you dropped her like a wet turd.
We have, indeed, been through this before - you were shown to be dishonestly making things up then and you are still doing so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:16 PM

She said nothing that contradicted the Israeli version of events, because she saw nothing that did.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:19 PM

Up to the point she and her friend came out in the open with her accusations about the role the Israelis played in the massacre she was one of your claimed supporters,

No.
You introduced them both to the discussion.
I produced what she actually said.
If I am wrong, produce one thing from her account.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 03:38 PM

"because she saw nothing that did."
For Christ's sake Keith, Both Ellen seigal and Dr Ang Swee Chai were eye witnesses, Doctor Ang has spent a good deal of her life since lecturing on the horrors she witnesses and the prole that srael played in the massacre.
You came up with some shite about "examining maps and finding Seigel could not have seen what she claimed to have seen.
Her first appearance in the public eye was through a letter she had written to an Israeli soldier who she made visual contact with throughout the massacre - she from the hospital roof where the nurses took their breaks, he from a watchtower overlooking the camp and witnessing what was going on.
What she couldn't see, she gathered from survivors brought into the hospital.
She later gave evidence of seeing the bulldozers with Hebrew writing on the side being used to dig the mass graves.
You have has all the evidence before I'm ******* if I have any intention of diggig it up again.
If you are so keen, why not link up her statement and prove me wrong?
In the meantime - chew on this - sorry it's so long for your limited intelligence
Jim Carroll

We look at one of the most shocking incidents in the career of the late former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon: the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Up to 2,000 Palestinians died on Sept. 16-17, 1982, when the Israeli military allowed a Christian militia to attack the camp. Then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon was forced to resign after a special Israeli investigative panel declared him to be "personally responsible" for the massacre. We air a description of the killings by Ellen Siegel, a Jewish-American nurse who was working at Gaza Hospital at the Sabra camp at the time of the attacks, and speak with Rashid Khalidi, Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies at Columbia University, and Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist, author and Institute Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

TRANSCRIPT

This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: Avi Shlaim, go back to 1982 and what happened in Lebanon. First, where were you?

AVI SHLAIM: In 1982, Ariel Sharon was defense minister in Menachem Begin's government, and he was the architect of the invasion of Lebanon. And it was a war of deception because Sharon tricked his Cabinet colleagues into launching this operation by pretending the aims were very limited, whereas in fact he had a big plan to completely change the bare geopolitics of the region, to create a new order in Lebanon but by helping Israel's Maronite Christian allies to come to power in Lebanon and then sign a peace treaty with Israel, then to expel the Syrian forces from Lebanon and to replace Syrian with Israeli hegemony in the Levant.

This war of deception ended in tears. It didn't achieve any of its grandiose geopolitical objectives, and it ended also with the massacre in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila. There was an Israeli—there was an Israeli commission of inquiry which found Defense Minister Sharon as responsible for failing to prevent the massacre of the Palestinian refugees by Israel's Christian allies, and Sharon was forced to step down—he was fired as minister of defense. And no one could have guessed at that time how a man who was found unfit to serve as minister of defense would bounce back as Israel's prime minister.

But this is all of a piece in Sharon's career as a soldier and as a politician, because, as Professor Khalidi pointed out, Sharon committed his first war crime as a young major in 1953 when he destroyed many houses in the Jordanian village of Qibya, and he was responsible for the massacre of 69 civilians. So that was his first war crime, but it was not to be his last. And the consistent thread in his career as a soldier and as a politician was to use brute force, not just against the regular armies of the Arab states, but also against Palestinian civilians. And the other consistent thread is to shun diplomacy and to rely on brute force to impose Israeli hegemony on the entire region. President George W. Bush famously called Sharon a man of peace. Sharon was nothing of the sort. He was a man of war through and through, and he called his autobiography Warrior, not Diplomat. His approach to diplomacy reversed Clausewitz's dictum; for Sharon, diplomacy was the pursuit of war by other means. For the last 40 years, the Arab-Israeli conflict has been my main research interest, and I can honestly say that I have never come across a single scintilla of evidence to support the notion of Sharon as a man of peace.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go back to 1982, the commission report you referred to, Avi Shlaim, and ask Noam Chomsky about the Kahan Commission and what it is they found, and how it is that Ariel Sharon actually survived politically beyond that.

NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, the Kahan Commission did condemn Sharon for what they called "indirect responsibility" for Sabra-Shatila massacre. The Kahan Commission, I think, was really a whitewash. It tried to give as soft as possible an interpretation of what was in fact a horrifying massacre, actually one that should resonate with people who are familiar with Jewish history. It was almost a replica of the Kishinev massacre in pre-First World War Russia, one of the worst atrocities in Israeli memory, led to a famous nationalist poem by the main Israeli poet, Chaim Nahman Bialik, "City of Killing." The tsar's army had surrounded this town and allowed the people within it to rampage, killing Jews for three days. They killed 45 people. That was—that's pretty much what happened in Sabra-Shatila: Israeli army surrounded it, sent in the Phalangist forces, who were obviously bent on murder.

AMY GOODMAN: These were the Lebanese Christian forces.

NOAM CHOMSKY: Lebanese Christian terrorist force, allied with Israel. The soldiers watched as they illuminated it. They helped them enter. They watched for several days while they murdered, not 45 people, but somewhere—Israel claims 800, other analyses go up to several thousand. That's the Sabra-Shatila massacre. The idea that Sharon had indirect—the tsar, incidentally, was bitterly condemned internationally for direct responsibility. That's, in fact, one of the events that set off the huge flow of refugees from Eastern Europe, including my father, among others. But—so this was a kind of a replica, except far more brutal and vicious. And Sharon escaped more than a mild censure. It's true that he was removed as defense minister, but it wasn't long before he came back. And that's one of a number of extremely shocking incidents in his career.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to stay with that for a moment, Noam, because I want to turn to Ellen Siegel. She was a Jewish-American nurse who worked at a hospital at the Sabra camp at the time of the Sabra and Shatila massacre in September 1982. We interviewed her in 2001 and played it on the 20th anniversary of the killings. She described some of what she witnessed during the massacre.

ELLEN SIEGEL: The 18th, which was a Saturday morning, it was also the first day of Rosh Hashanah. We were told to come down to the entranceway to the hospital, that the Lebanese army was downstairs. Well, it wasn't the Lebanese army; it was the Phalange. And here were a group of soldiers who looked—who looked quite neat, clean, and they told us that they were going to march us out of the camp. And they took our passports from us, and they started to march us down the main street of the hospital. As we were marching, we saw dead bodies. They started to holler at us, this militia, telling us that we were not Christian, that we came to help people who hated Christians, that we were terrorists. They were talking on walkie-talkies. There was constant communication with someone.
There was a Palestinian who had been working in the hospital, who did not flee when the rest of them did. And he was terrified, and he asked for someone to give him a lab coat. And so we gave him a lab coat. But, of course, he was picked out immediately because he looked very different than these white and blonde and Scandinavian and American and British health workers. And I turned around, I saw him on his knees pleading, and I was told to keep walking. And the next thing I heard was a shot. I never looked back.
As we continued walking, there were new soldiers. There was a whole contingent of other soldiers lining the streets. And these militia people looked quite crazed. They were—looked very dirty, very messy, and looked like they had been on drugs or something. They were just tense, wide-eyed, nervous—extremely nervous. There was a group of Palestinians and Lebanese refugees who they forced to line up against a—they were all just lined during this pathway. And one of the women had an infant in her hands, and she tried to give this infant to one of the doctors. And the Phalange said, "No, you can't—can't take this baby." And they were watching us, and they were giving us the V sign. It was hard to tell who was more uptight about what was going to happen to who.
As we continued down the street, we—there was an area that had been part of the camp. And suddenly, there were—there was bulldozers with an Israeli—with a Hebrew letter on it, and it was going back and forth, back and forth. That, I'm sure, turned out to be the mass grave. We were—we kept on walking. Walkie-talkies. We reached the end of the camp, and we turned a corner. This was outside of the camp. They lined us up against a bullet-ridden wall, and they had their rifles ready. And we really thought this is—I mean, it was a firing squad. Suddenly, an Israeli soldier comes running down the street and halts it. I suppose the idea of gunning down foreign health workers was something that was not very appealing to the Israelis. But the fact that they could see this and stop it shows that there was—there was some communication.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Ellen Siegel, a Jewish American nurse who was working at Gaza Hospital in the Sabra camp at the time of the Sabra and Shatila massacre in 1982. I asked her what should happen to Ariel Sharon.

ELLEN SIEGEL: I think what should happen to him is what has happened in our history, in Jewish history. Ever since I was a child, I have learned that what happened during the Holocaust happened because people were silent, people did not speak up. People allowed bad things to happen to other people and did not do anything about it. We should be the last people on Earth that should allow that to happen. Simon Wiesenthal continues and the Jewish agencies continue to look for Nazi war criminals, and indeed they should, and bring them to justice. Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. And the legal aspects of this, I understand, as a non-legal person, put him in that category. He allowed innocent people to be murdered. He did nothing to protect it. He knew that they were the sworn enemy of the Palestinians. And so, he should be tried.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Ellen Siegel, the nurse who worked in the Sabra camp at the time of the massacre in 1982. Professor Rashid Khalidi, also with us, your relative headed that hospital called Gaza Hospital?

RASHID KHALIDI: Correct.

AMY GOODMAN: That Ellen Siegel worked in.

RASHID KHALIDI: My cousin Aziza was the director of Gaza Hospital at the time.

AMY GOODMAN: And you were in Lebanon. He was there.

RASHID KHALIDI: I was in Beirut at the time.

AMY GOODMAN: Describe the reaction afterwards, how—what he was doing at that time.

RASHID KHALIDI: What my cousin, Aziza, what she was doing at the time?

AMY GOODMAN: What she was doing.

RASHID KHALIDI: Well, she was trying to stay alive. First of all, they were treating patients, as victims of the massacre came in. And then, as Ellen describes, they were—

AMY GOODMAN: Only critically injured patients there at the time, as they were trying to clear out.

RASHID KHALIDI: Precisely, precisely. And most people realized that a massacre was going on, and most of the Palestinians fled. My cousin was completely traumatized, obviously, by it, as, for that matter, were my children and thousands and thousands of others, Lebanese and Palestinian children, who were living in Beirut during the 10-week siege of the city, bombardment and siege of the city.

One of the things that nobody has talked about is the new documents that have been revealed in the Israel State Archives, which I think pin direct responsibility for much more of what happened in Sabra and Shatila on not only Ariel Sharon and the Israeli government, but reveal American responsibility for what happened. The New York Times, on the 30th anniversary of the massacre in September of 2012, published an op-ed with links to some of these documents—by a student of mine, actually—which shows that in fact Sharon's responsibility was far greater than indirect, shows that the Israeli government knew perfectly well what was going on, that the Israelis stonewalled to prevent the massacre being stopped. American diplomats were sent to tell the Israelis on the 16th of September, in the middle of the massacre, "You must withdraw your forces from Beirut," and one can read in these documents, which The New York Times has put a link to on their website, exactly how Sharon basically fended that off so that the killing could continue for another day.

AMY GOODMAN: What was Israel's goal in Lebanon? The pretext was an assassination attempt on Israel's ambassador in London and the shelling of northern Israel from Lebanon.

RASHID KHALIDI: Right. Well, the shelling had been stopped for a year. Ambassador Philip Habib, since 1981, had stopped the cross-border exchanges, so that pretext was removed. And Sharon was dying for a pretext. We have now the text of his meeting with Secretary of State Haig in May, and he lays out his objectives. He says, "We're going to turn Lebanon into a satellite state," much as Avi and Noam Chomsky said. "We are going to eliminate Syrian influence, and we're going to destroy the PLO." Those were his objectives. And he, exactly as Professor Shlaim said, sold this to the Israeli Cabinet by—and to the Americans, by saying it would be a much more limited operation. In fact, he intended to reach Beirut, and he intended to do all of these quite ambitious things to change the entire map.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. The former Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, has died. He died on Saturday after eight years in a coma. He was 85 years old. Our guests are Professor Avi Shlaim at Oxford University, where he is a professor emeritus there of international relations; Noam Chomsky, the world-renowned linguist, political dissident, author; and Rashid Khalidi, Arab studies professor at Columbia University, the Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies.

You were just talking about The New York Times and how they covered what happened at Sabra and Shatila, and the direct responsibility that Ariel Sharon—linking to documents of Sharon's responsibility and U.S. responsibility. Elaborate further on that and then how it's—his life is being described today in the same pages.

RASHID KHALIDI: Well, I describe it as the apotheosis of Ariel Sharon. He's being turned from a war criminal and a mass murderer, which he was, into a god, in the American—in much of the American media. The New York Times has played an enormous role in this. Instead of, for example, running their own op-ed, which was published a little over a year ago, which lays out in damning detail, from documents in the Israel State Archives, Israeli and American responsibility, notably Sharon's responsibility, for this massacre, they republished on their—in their online edition yesterday an op-ed by Sharon in which he justifies the war. It has been a degrading spectacle to watch the American and the Israeli media turn this man into, as Avi said, a man of peace, something that he could never possibly have been described as.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:19 PM

Her first appearance in the public eye was through a letter she had written to an Israeli soldier who she made visual contact with throughout the massacre

No. She met him outside the camp on the same morning the journalist Fisk arrived. A shy young soldier who offered to share honey cake his mother had sent.-

she from the hospital roof where the nurses took their breaks,
She saw nothing of it and knew nothing.
She watched the flares and commented on the silence. No shots or cries.

he from a watchtower overlooking the camp and witnessing what was going on.

The "camp" is buildings with a warren of streets in between. From outside the streets can not be seen.

What she couldn't see, she gathered from survivors brought into the hospital.
She does not recall being told about any massacre.

She later gave evidence of seeing the bulldozers with Hebrew writing on the side being used to dig the mass graves.

No. She does not say the bulldozer was burying anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM

If that assault continues then the IDF has every justification in going back in and every single casualty and fatality that occurs from this point forward is down to Hamas.

Clasp your hands over your ears and eyes as much as you like, but here's a basic home truth: if you fire a rocket or a gun or a bomb or a shell, and it kills someone, it's you who did the killing. No-one else. You had a choice of firing that weapon or not firing it. Do read that last little sentence again, please. This business of Israelis killing almost two thousand civilians and blaming every death on someone else who did not do the killing is no more than a sign of your impending insanity. You might as well accuse the Japanese of killing all those people in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. You might as well blame every female rape victim in a miniskirt for contributory negligence. Clear your head and get it clear who actually does the killing. The bloke who fires the weapon, every time. He always had the choice of not firing it. Got it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 05:41 PM

Arguable, Steve -- when he is responding in kind to someone who has already fired first, and is attempting to pre-empt and prevent his doing so again; particularly when it is 'the other side' who has declared the war-footing and prevented any meaningful negotiations from taking place, & endeavoured to inhibit the response by deliberate placement of civilian 'shields' against attack. You reduce a complex situation to absurdity by such grotesque over-simplifications.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Aug 14 - 06:01 PM

Arguable my arse, Islamophobe. You fire a gun and your bullet kills a person, you killed that person. No-one else killed that person. If you find something "arguable" about that, you are insane, and, frankly, not worth talking to. You had a choice as to whether you fired that gun. Hamas rockets have killed about one Israeli, on average, per annum since the turn of the millennium. That is a very bad thing and I wish it hadn't happened. But you cannot argue that killing 1800 civilians in a month was an act of self-defence against that. Had the Israelis been up against a massive onslaught that threatened their very existence, well yes, the retaliation would have been proportionate. But you know as well as I do that that was not the case. Gaza, to the Israelis, contains a wasps' nest that might occasionally make them feel uneasy and might occasionally result in an Israeli or two getting stung. But Israelis still enjoy their affluent lifestyles (often on stolen land, of course), and get to the beach and drink their cocktails of a summer's evening on their porches (good luck to 'em - I like doing all that as well). But they don't just extirpate the wasps' nest. They ravage the whole area, paying little heed to the value of the lives of ordinary Gazans. But, when we give them a little bollocking, they call us antisemitic. Get a grip, Michael. You're losing it, big time, old chap. Very old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:37 AM

More atrocity denying Keith - you have her statement, you have had Dr Ang Swee Chai's statement, you have Chomski's overall veiw (ignored, of course) you have had the masses of evidence by independent observers Human Rights groups and enquiries, yet you're still there with your "Israel is Innocent" placard.
The defence of two atrocities - flechettes and Sabra Shatila - at the same time - must be worth some sort of prize!
The ironic feature of all this is that, for all your posturing, you have no regard whatever for the Jewish people - your concern is solely for the extremist right-wing regime that now governs Israel.
Some time ago we discussed British wartime fascism
It arose from my recalling a story of two British politicians being told of what was happening in Belsen and Auschwitz and responding by describing the reports as "lies invented by whining Yids".
You immediately leapt to the defence of these 'gentlemen' by denying that such a thing could ever have happened.
The argument brought up the existence of a group of British politicians, nobility and businessmen who had formed themselves into an alternative government to take over Britain "when Herr Hitler had won the war"
Prominent in the group was the 5th Duke of Wellington (who was later to die cursing "the Yids" on his deathbed) and Archibald Maule Ramsey, whose 'Red Book' had been recently made public.
Maule's book contained masses of Antisemitic poetry along with plans for what was to happen to British Jewry when Germany won the war, (his dream was recently chillingly depicted in C.J. Sansom's novel, 'Dominion'
You described Maule as "an eccentric" and his diatribes of Antisemitism as "harmless", comparing them to the theme song of 'Dad's Army'
Considering that this was all happening at the same time as six million Jews where being herded into the extermination ovens of Auschwitz and other such facilities, I think that this puts your proclaimed regard for the Jewish People in somewhat of a strange light.
You are an extremist right winger and your ongoing defence of the Israeli regime has more to do with your own political position than it does any concern you might claim for The Jews.
I suspect that, given the constant attempts of those who persist in blaming 'The Jews' for atrocities such as Sabra/Shatila and Deir Yassin by making any criticism of israel 'Antisemitic', you are not alone in your right-wing extremism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:38 AM

Someone is gunning down your family from behind their own kid.
Take the shot or wait till he runs out of live kids and bullets?
Would it make you a murderer?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM

I have her statement and can quote it.

As with me you can only misrepresent what was said, but not produce actual quotes, because your accounts are lies.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:55 AM

Steve, You fire a gun and your bullet kills a person, you killed that person. No-one else killed that person

So you are not one of those who blame Israel for what Arab militia did at Sabra Shatila, or US for the hundreds of thousands of killings in post invasion Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:59 AM

"I have her statement and can quote it."
Do so - but it doesn't make a shit of difference to the overall facts which you choose to ignore
"Take the shot or wait till he runs out of live kids and bullets?"
What on earth are you babbling about - Israel has slaughtered nearly two thousand people indiscriminately claiming that Hamas is hiding somewhere among them
No running out and aiming - just blitzing everything in range
That makes it mass murder
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:09 AM

Jim, you claimed her account backs your version but it does not.
You lied.
My analogy was re. Steve's simplistic assesment.

Whatever you and Steve think, it is legal to fight back against an aggressor who hides behind civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:46 AM

"Whatever you and Steve think, it is legal to fight back against an aggressor who hides behind civilians."
What on earth are you talking about - who was hiding behind whom?
Which atrocity are you defending now"
"Jim, you claimed her account backs your version but it does not.

No did not Keith, though I accept you are far better than anybody else to recognise lies as you have turned them into a fine art.
Ellen Seigal says she witnessed the massacre from the roof of the hospital with the assistance of the flares provided by the Israelis - in her statement
It's in her report - please tell me it is not.
She gave evidence that she saw the Israeli soldier coming to the site during the massacre, being stopped at the gate, turning away and leaving them to it.
It's in her report - please tell me it is not.
She gave evidence of seeing the Israeli bulldozers at work as she wads leaving.
It's in her report - please tell me it is not.
All this is in her statement
Other accounts actually give descriptions of Israeli troops running amok during the massacre - but they came from the victims so they won't count with yo
The Israeli Kahan commission report actually stated that the Israelis knew exactly what was going on while it was going on and did nothing.
Why are you continuing to defend a massacre that has long been done and dusted?
Kahan report
"The decision on the entry of the Phalangists into the refugee camps was taken without consideration of the danger - which the makers and executors of the decision were obligated to foresee as probable - the Phalangists would commit massacres and pogroms against the inhabitants of the camps, and without an examination of the means for preventing this danger.
Similarly, it is clear from the course of events that when the reports began to arrive about the actions of the Phalangists in the camps, no proper heed was taken of these reports, the correct conclusions were not drawn from them, and no energetic and immediate action were taken to restrain the Phalangists and put a stop to their actions."
" Ariel Sharon was held personally responsible for allowing the Phalangists into the camps."
Is there no end to your atrocity condoning?
Jim Carroll

An American account of U.S. Involvement from the N.Y Times:
A Preventable Massacre
By SETH ANZISKA
ON the night of Sept. 16, 1982, the Israeli military allowed a right-wing Lebanese militia to enter two Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut. In the ensuing three-day rampage, the militia, linked to the Maronite Christian Phalange Party, raped, killed and dismembered at least 800 civilians, while Israeli flares illuminated the camps' narrow and darkened alleyways. Nearly all of the dead were women, children and elderly men.
For Op-Ed, follow @nytopinion and to hear from the editorial page editor, Andrew Rosenthal, follow @andyrNYT.
Thirty years later, the massacre at the Sabra and Shatila camps is remembered as a notorious chapter in modern Middle Eastern history, clouding the tortured relationships among Israel, the United States, Lebanon and the Palestinians. In 1983, an Israeli investigative commission concluded that Israeli leaders were "indirectly responsible" for the killings and that Ariel Sharon, then the defense minister and later prime minister, bore "personal responsibility" for failing to prevent them.
While Israel's role in the massacre has been closely examined, America's actions have never been fully understood. This summer, at the Israel State Archives, I found recently declassified documents that chronicle key conversations between American and Israeli officials before and during the 1982 massacre. The verbatim transcripts reveal that the Israelis misled American diplomats about events in Beirut and bullied them into accepting the spurious claim that thousands of "terrorists" were in the camps. Most troubling, when the United States was in a position to exert strong diplomatic pressure on Israel that could have ended the atrocities, it failed to do so. As a result, Phalange militiamen were able to murder Palestinian civilians, whom America had pledged to protect just weeks earlier.
Israel's involvement in the Lebanese civil war began in June 1982, when it invaded its northern neighbor. Its goal was to root out the Palestine Liberation Organization, which had set up a state within a state, and to transform Lebanon into a Christian-ruled ally. The Israel Defense Forces soon besieged P.L.O.-controlled areas in the western part of Beirut. Intense Israeli bombardments led to heavy civilian casualties and tested even President Ronald Reagan, who initially backed Israel. In mid-August, as America was negotiating the P.L.O.'s withdrawal from Lebanon, Reagan told Prime Minister Menachem Begin that the bombings "had to stop or our entire future relationship was endangered," Reagan wrote in his diaries.

The United States agreed to deploy Marines to Lebanon as part of a multinational force to supervise the P.L.O.'s departure, and by Sept. 1, thousands of its fighters — including Yasir Arafat — had left Beirut for various Arab countries. After America negotiated a cease-fire that included written guarantees to protect the Palestinian civilians remaining in the camps from vengeful Lebanese Christians, the Marines departed Beirut, on Sept. 10.
Israel hoped that Lebanon's newly elected president, Bashir Gemayel, a Maronite, would support an Israeli-Christian alliance. But on Sept. 14, Gemayel was assassinated. Israel reacted by violating the cease-fire agreement. It quickly occupied West Beirut — ostensibly to prevent militia attacks against the Palestinian civilians. "The main order of the day is to keep the peace," Begin told the American envoy to the Middle East, Morris Draper, on Sept. 15. "Otherwise, there could be pogroms."
By Sept. 16, the I.D.F. was fully in control of West Beirut, including Sabra and Shatila. In Washington that same day, Under Secretary of State Lawrence S. Eagleburger told the Israeli ambassador, Moshe Arens, that "Israel's credibility has been severely damaged" and that "we appear to some to be the victim of deliberate deception by Israel." He demanded that Israel withdraw from West Beirut immediately.
In Tel Aviv, Mr. Draper and the American ambassador, Samuel W. Lewis, met with top Israeli officials. Contrary to Prime Minister Begin's earlier assurances, Defense Minister Sharon said the occupation of West Beirut was justified because there were "2,000 to 3,000 terrorists who remained there." Mr. Draper disputed this claim; having coordinated the August evacuation, he knew the number was minuscule. Mr. Draper said he was horrified to hear that Mr. Sharon was considering allowing the Phalange militia into West Beirut. Even the I.D.F. chief of staff, Rafael Eitan, acknowledged to the Americans that he feared "a relentless slaughter."
On the evening of Sept. 16, the Israeli cabinet met and was informed that Phalange fighters were entering the Palestinian camps. Deputy Prime Minister David Levy worried aloud: "I know what the meaning of revenge is for them, what kind of slaughter. Then no one will believe we went in to create order there, and we will bear the blame." That evening, word of civilian deaths began to filter out to Israeli military officials, politicians and journalists.

At 12:30 p.m. on Sept. 17, Foreign Minister Yitzhak Shamir hosted a meeting with Mr. Draper, Mr. Sharon and several Israeli intelligence chiefs. Mr. Shamir, having reportedly heard of a "slaughter" in the camps that morning, did not mention it.
The transcript of the Sept. 17 meeting reveals that the Americans were browbeaten by Mr. Sharon's false insistence that "terrorists" needed "mopping up." It also shows how Israel's refusal to relinquish areas under its control, and its delays in coordinating with the Lebanese National Army, which the Americans wanted to step in, prolonged the slaughter.
Mr. Draper opened the meeting by demanding that the I.D.F. pull back right away. Mr. Sharon exploded, "I just don't understand, what are you looking for? Do you want the terrorists to stay? Are you afraid that somebody will think that you were in collusion with us? Deny it. We denied it." Mr. Draper, unmoved, kept pushing for definitive signs of a withdrawal. Mr. Sharon, who knew Phalange forces had already entered the camps, cynically told him, "Nothing will happen. Maybe some more terrorists will be killed. That will be to the benefit of all of us." Mr. Shamir and Mr. Sharon finally agreed to gradually withdraw once the Lebanese Army started entering the city — but they insisted on waiting 48 hours (until the end of Rosh Hashana, which started that evening).
Continuing his plea for some sign of an Israeli withdrawal, Mr. Draper warned that critics would say, "Sure, the I.D.F. is going to stay in West Beirut and they will let the Lebanese go and kill the Palestinians in the camps."
Mr. Sharon replied: "So, we'll kill them. They will not be left there. You are not going to save them. You are not going to save these groups of the international terrorism."

Mr. Draper responded: "We are not interested in saving any of these people." Mr. Sharon declared: "If you don't want the Lebanese to kill them, we will kill them."
Mr. Draper then caught himself, and backtracked. He reminded the Israelis that the United States had painstakingly facilitated the P.L.O. exit from Beirut "so it wouldn't be necessary for you to come in." He added, "You should have stayed out."
Mr. Sharon exploded again: "When it comes to our security, we have never asked. We will never ask. When it comes to existence and security, it is our own responsibility and we will never give it to anybody to decide for us." The meeting ended with an agreement to coordinate withdrawal plans after Rosh Hashana.
By allowing the argument to proceed on Mr. Sharon's terms, Mr. Draper effectively gave Israel cover to let the Phalange fighters remain in the camps. Fuller details of the massacre began to emerge on Sept. 18, when a young American diplomat, Ryan C. Crocker, visited the gruesome scene and reported back to Washington.

Years later, Mr. Draper called the massacre "obscene." And in an oral history recorded a few years before his death in 2005, he remembered telling Mr. Sharon: "You should be ashamed. The situation is absolutely appalling. They're killing children! You have the field completely under your control and are therefore responsible for that area."
On Sept. 18, Reagan pronounced his "outrage and revulsion over the murders." He said the United States had opposed Israel's invasion of Beirut, both because "we believed it wrong in principle and for fear that it would provoke further fighting." Secretary of State George P. Shultz later admitted that "we are partially responsible" because "we took the Israelis and the Lebanese at their word." He summoned Ambassador Arens. "When you take military control over a city, you're responsible for what happens," he told him. "Now we have a massacre."
But the belated expression of shock and dismay belies the Americans' failed diplomatic effort during the massacre. The transcript of Mr. Draper's meeting with the Israelis demonstrates how the United States was unwittingly complicit in the tragedy of Sabra and Shatila.

Ambassador Lewis, now retired, told me that the massacre would have been hard to prevent "unless Reagan had picked up the phone and called Begin and read him the riot act even more clearly than he already did in August — that might have stopped it temporarily." But "Sharon would have found some other way" for the militiamen to take action, Mr. Lewis added.
Nicholas A. Veliotes, then the assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern affairs, agreed. "Vintage Sharon," he said, after I read the transcript to him. "It is his way or the highway."
The Sabra and Shatila massacre severely undercut America's influence in the Middle East, and its moral authority plummeted. In the aftermath of the massacre, the United States felt compelled by "guilt" to redeploy the Marines, who ended up without a clear mission, in the midst of a brutal civil war.
On Oct. 23, 1983, the Marine barracks in Beirut were bombed and 241 Marines were killed. The attack led to open warfare with Syrian-backed forces and, soon after, the rapid withdrawal of the Marines to their ships. As Mr. Lewis told me, America left Lebanon "with our tail between our legs."
The archival record reveals the magnitude of a deception that undermined American efforts to avoid bloodshed. Working with only partial knowledge of the reality on the ground, the United States feebly yielded to false arguments and stalling tactics that allowed a massacre in progress to proceed.
The lesson of the Sabra and Shatila tragedy is clear. Sometimes close allies act contrary to American interests and values. Failing to exert American power to uphold those interests and values can have disastrous consequences: for our allies, for our moral standing and most important, for the innocent people who pay the highest price of all.
Seth Anziska is a doctoral candidate in international history at Columbia University.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:46 AM

@ Steve Shaw

Why are you being so rude, Steve? Good manners are an earnest of an overall decency. Stinking manners, meanwhile, enhance nobody's arguments, however otherwise convincing...

...As I trust you may learn as you mature --


All best regards, as ever,

from the preternaturally ancient

≈Michael≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 08:55 AM

Ellen Seigal says she witnessed the massacre from the roof of the hospital with the assistance of the flares provided by the Israelis - in her statement
It's in her report - please tell me it is not.

It is not.
She knew nothing of any massacre until she went out in the aftermath.

She saw no Israeli soldier until she had left the camp.

She did not say the bulldozer was burying bodies.

All your made up shit Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 11:26 AM

So you are not one of those who blame Israel for what Arab militia did at Sabra Shatila, or US for the hundreds of thousands of killings in post invasion Iraq.

You may not have noticed that I am not "blaming". I am stating a very plain fact that many people, including you, want to deny. That if you fire a weapon, and it kills someone, it is you who did the killing. I've been very consistent in saying that and it has nothing to do with blame. You had a choice as to whether you fired that weapon. Blaming is a separate issue. Perhaps you fired because your family would otherwise have been immediately murdered (which actually happened to a number of families in Gaza, in case you hadn't noticed) if you hadn't. No-one would blame you for doing that. But there have been no such circumstances facing Israelis in this conflict. Every shell, bullet or bomb sent by the IDF that killed innocent civilians in Gaza was deliberately fired by an Israeli person who fired blind with little or no regard for the consequences. Yes that's what Hamas does as well. That is a bad thing. You will agree with that. But you are utterly blind as to the out-of-control disproportionality of Israel's response. Firing shells blind into a heavily-populated civilian area in no better than firing rockets into towns in Israel. That is because you are a racist Islamophobe. By the way, no-one has gunned down any Israeli family from behind their own kids. Yet you accuse people here of making stuff up all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 11:29 AM

And I inserted a sentence in the wrong bloody place.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:25 PM

Mr. Shaw, I am not so sure that every Israeli shell and rocket was "fired blind" I think that many targets were chosen for their propaganda and terror value, including hospitals and the UN school. Otherwise I heartily agree with your post.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

Well we might never get to find out. Any weaponry which targets civilian areas is fired without regard for civilians, no matter what excuses are given. Both sides do that. The justification given by Hamas is that they are under siege, which is undeniable and intolerable. The justification given by Israel is that they are protecting their civilians. I think they are actually visiting on their civilians far greater insecurity and cause for fear for many years to come. Unfortunately, so far the Israeli regime has managed to hoodwink most of the civilian population. The world outside Israel is a different proposition, though I'm certain that AIPAC in the US will be sharpening its teeth as we speak in order to keep The Land Of The Free onside.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

Gaza is under blockade only because it declared war on Israel and declared its intention to kill all Jews.
A blockade is the least response they could expect.

Why is Israel expected to be kind and forgiving to people trying and determined to kill them all?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 02:46 PM

The overall effect of BDS is to isolate Israel, which only encourages extremists of both sides.
Israel is not South Africa under apartheid, despite arguments to the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:02 PM

Well, Keith (*sigh*), Hamas knows, I know, Israel knows, Jim knows, the whole world knows (except for you, of course), that Hamas will not get rid of Israel nor kill all the Jews. Israel wants Hamas to drop that alleged aim, and Hamas won't do it. Why not? Because that would be seen as a terrible defeat. Do you know something, Keith? Israel has made it so much harder for Hamas to renounce that aim. Israel's disproportionate actions have radicalised the Gazan people, not to speak of its other Arab neighbours, and (heaven forfend, but what a risk it was) might, in the words of Paddy Pantsdown, have created thousands more terrorists. So well done Bibi for making your people so much more secure, eh? Equally, Israel can't lift the blockade. Why not? Because that also would be seen as a terrible defeat. No other reason really. It's the politics of the infant school playground being played out by both sides. Both sides, Keith. Take your racist blinkers off just for a minute. But the side with the big bomb is the side who could take the initiative. But they won't. Why not? Well, they don't have to. No-one ever leans on them. They enjoy the (ever-thinning) security of military bankrolling for a start. Oh yes, world opinion might be turning against Israel, and rightly so, but all that will do is make AIPAC sharpen its teeth ever more.

By the way, ever seen a yank on here criticising AIPAC, just about the most undemocratic setup it's possible to conceive of?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:20 PM

"... AIPAC, just about the most undemocratic setup it's possible to conceive of?"

What total bullshit! AIPAC is a legal lobbying organization in the United States. It has all the rights to expression of its wants and desires to Congress as, for instance, CAIR, NOW, unions, NAACP, the AMA, just to name a few. They are neither more nor less democratic than those organizations. You may not like that or the organization, but, then, I'm not surprised: AIPAC's aims don't agree with Mr. Shaw's.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 03:40 PM

"She knew nothing of any massacre until she went out in the aftermath."
For the sake of decency, if not self respect – stop lying
Jim Carroll
Ellen Seigal interview
That evening, a few other health-care workers and I climbed to one of the top floors of the hospital; it had been unused since the recent invasion. Because most of the walls had been bombed out, the view was unobstructed. We watched for a time as flares were shot into the air, brightly illuminating different parts of the camp. After each flare, rounds of light artillery fire were heard. I thought people were trying to shoot down the flares. Not a sound was heard from the camps except the noise of the flares being projected and the shots that followed. No screaming, no cries for help, no human sound, nothing. Israeli planes continued to fly overhead as the night went on.

Letter from Ellen Seigal
Following the assassination of the newly-elected president of Lebanon in mid-September all hell broke loose. I listened as Israeli planes broke the sound barrier over the camps, heard continuous heavy artillery fire, and stayed away from shattering windows. For almost 48 hours, from September 16th to the 18th, I attempted to save the lives of those who were brought to the hospital. Many had severe wounds from being shot at close range. I cared for hundreds of terrified refugees seeking the safety of the hospital. I tried to comprehend the throat-slitting gesture the women made. I watched from a top floor of the hospital as flares were shot in the air. The flares illuminated areas of the camp; the sound of automatic weapons fire followed each illumination.
Ellen Seigal letter
The first day of year 5743 was marked by the arrival of the Phalangists – you who were there remember that extremist militia – at the front of the hospital. They ordered the international health workers to assemble. They marched us down the main street of the camps: past dead bodies, past a bulldozer marked with a Hebrew letter which was shifting soil to cover over a large area where homes once stood. Many of the militia were using walkie-talkies. At one point, the soldiers lined us up against a bullet- ridden wall and pointed their rifles at us. After several minutes, they put their rifles down and marched us out of the camp.
Rita Couture Article of Ellen Seigal
Ellen Siegel was an American nurse from Baltimore who volunteered at Gaza hospital in Sabra camp. She was rounded up with 20 other foreign medical personal. Upon hearing the radio communications that the butchers inside the camp were ready to execute all of them, an army officer stopped the order and ran back to the camp to rescue Miss Siegel and another female nurse from Holland . The rest were lined up against the wall and executed. Miss Siegel was among 3 Americans who testified in the Kahane Commission, the Israeli official inquiry into the massacre.
Noam Chomski
NOAM CHOMSKY: Lebanese Christian terrorist force, allied with Israel. The soldiers watched as they illuminated it. They helped them enter. They watched for several days while they murdered, not 45 people, but somewhere—Israel claims 800, other analyses go up to several thousand. That's the Sabra-Shatila massacre. The idea that Sharon had indirect—the tsar, incidentally, was bitterly condemned internationally for direct responsibility. That's, in fact, one of the events that set off the huge flow of refugees from Eastern Europe, including my father, among others. But—so this was a kind of a replica, except far more brutal and vicious. And Sharon escaped more than a mild censure. It's true that he was removed as defense minister, but it wasn't long before he came back. And that's one of a number of extremely shocking incidents in his career.
Dr Swee Chai Ang
I worked in Gaza Hospital in Sabra Shatilla during the massacre trying to save the lives of a few dozen people, but outside the hospital hundreds were killed. My patients and I knew that Sharon and his officers were in control, and without them the massacre would not be possible. The residents of Sabra Shatilla could at least have escaped. Now more than 30 years later, we know that the killers were brought in by Israeli armoured cars and tanks, obeyed Israeli commands, their paths lit by Israeli military flares, and some of them also wore Israeli uniforms. The mutilated bodies of the victims were thrown into mass graves by Israeli bulldozers.
Robert Fisk
But in Beirut, the victims were Palestinians. The guilty were certainly Christian militiamen - from which particular unit we were still unsure - but the Israelis were also guilty. If the Israelis had not taken part in the killings, they had certainly sent militia into the camp. They had trained them, given them uniforms, handed them US army rations and Israeli medical equipment. Then they had watched the murderers in the camps, they had given them military assistance - the Israeli airforce had dropped all those flares to help the men who were murdering the inhabitants of Sabra and Chatila - and they had established military liason with the murderers in the camps

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:34 PM

What total bullshit! AIPAC is a legal lobbying organization in the United States. It has all the rights to expression of its wants and desires to Congress as, for instance, CAIR, NOW, unions, NAACP, the AMA, just to name a few. They are neither more nor less democratic than those organizations. You may not like that or the organization, but, then, I'm not surprised: AIPAC's aims don't agree with Mr. Shaw's.

Hmm. Clearly a man signed up. :-) Now, Sunset John, I did not argue that AIPAC isn't legal. Booze and fags and fast cars are legal but they still do lots of damage. But, you see, what you are not telling us, in your staunch yet flawed defence of AIPAC, and what many yanks either deny (that'll be your media) or are scared to confront, is that AIPAC has Congress by the short and curlies. If a member of Congress briefs against Israel, AIPAC diverts lots of funding to their political enemies (and, if the miscreant was getting funding themselves, it's bye-bye to all that). This goes right to the top in American politics. President Obama knows that he cannot withdraw military aid from Israel, because, if he does, AIPAC will turn him into toast. Yet your electorate did not elect AIPAC. AIPAC consists of self-interested, wealthy and influential supporters of Israel, of all creeds and none (which is why you'll never catch me talking about "the Jewish lobby"). You live in a country that purports to lionise freedom and democracy. Yet you allow an unelected lobby group to dictate your foreign policy politics. If you think it stops at healthy and open lobbying, John, you are seriously deluded. But, again, that's your US media for you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 04:56 PM

You are right that AIPAC was not elected. BFD! It does no more nor no less than hundreds of lobbying groups. YOU don't like what it does, hence your antipathy towards it. You can couch your objections in any emotional way you wish, it is still the same garbage. If every single Jew in America joined AIPAC, and left the Democratic Party and President Obama (a wish devoutly longed for), it would be but a blip against them.

"AIPAC consists of self-interested, wealthy and influential supporters of Israel, of all creeds and none (which is why you'll never catch me talking about "the Jewish lobby")." But that is what you mean. NOW has male members, but it is a women's lobby group. Caucasians are members of the NAACP, but it is still a lobby group for 'Colored People". Don't be so mealy-mouthed, Steve..

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:32 PM

Jim, you just posted a claim that some of her party were shot.
No account says that.

Seigel wrote your account 30 years after the event.
Compare with what she wrote at the time.


"That evening, a few other health-care workers and I climbed to one of the top floors of the hospital; it had been unused since the recent invasion. Because most of the walls had been bombed out, the view was unobstructed. We watched for a time as flares were shot into the air, brightly illuminating different parts of the camp. After each flare, rounds of light artillery fire were heard. I thought people were trying to shoot down the flares. Not a sound was heard from the camps except the noise of the flares being projected and the shots that followed. No screaming, no cries for help, no human sound, nothing. Israeli planes continued to fly overhead as the night went on."

No mention of automatic fire.
No sound in the camp.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 05:38 PM

Steve, why should we not believe what Hamas says?
Their actions tell the same story.
Why would anyone assume that they don't really mean it?
It is irrational.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:52 PM

You are right that AIPAC was not elected. BFD! It does no more nor no less than hundreds of lobbying groups. YOU don't like what it does, hence your antipathy towards it. You can couch your objections in any emotional way you wish, it is still the same garbage. If every single Jew in America joined AIPAC, and left the Democratic Party and President Obama (a wish devoutly longed for), it would be but a blip against them.

"AIPAC consists of self-interested, wealthy and influential supporters of Israel, of all creeds and none (which is why you'll never catch me talking about "the Jewish lobby")." But that is what you mean. NOW has male members, but it is a women's lobby group. Caucasians are members of the NAACP, but it is still a lobby group for 'Colored People". Don't be so mealy-mouthed, Steve..

What a strangely-unfocussed post. I don't have "antipathy" towards AIPAC. I am merely pointing out what they are and what they do. I note that you don't contradict that. I was more honest than most who might demur from AIPAC's stance in refraining from calling them "the Jewish lobby", remember? The irony of your remarks, clearly lost on you, is that you are getting all animated and emotional about my criticism of AIPAC whilst my comments are, as ever, icy-cool (I wouldn't bother posting here otherwise). I've been bold enough to state some home truths about AIPAC et al. but you regard that as "mealy-mouthed". What a strange person you are. And the more you post, the odder you sound. At least we know where your sympathies lie, and we now know how inchoate your notions are. Keep calm and carry on is my advice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 14 - 07:55 PM

Steve, why should we not believe what Hamas says?

You don't believe Hamas when they say they don't use human shields, do you, Keith? Trouble is, you believe exactly what suits your prejudices. You have shown that time and time again.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 03:47 AM

"Jim, you just posted a claim that some of her party were shot."
Where?
You have claied that she was not aware that she was not aware of the massacre until she left the site even thought you know she witnessed it from the roof with the help of the flares being dropped by the Israelis and she and her collegues were traeting hundreds of victims for three days - a traffic accident maybe!
This gets ridiculous
Israel gave the Falange arms and uniforms - undisputed fact
They drove them to the camp and allowed them access to their victims - undisputed fact.
They stood by and allowed the massacre to take place for three days, fully aware of what was taking place - undisputed fact declared by many witnesses, including Israeli troops and dealt with by Israel's own Kahan Report.
Throughout the massacre, Israeli helicopters dropped flares, allowing it to go on day and night, so there can be no question of their not knowing what was taking place - undisputed fact.
After three days the Israelis transported the Falange from the site allowing them to escape any form of judicial proceedings for a massive crime which could and should have been punished in the International courts - undisputed fact.
They also provided bulldozers to level houses and dig mass graves to hide the evidence of those crimes and later built a sports stadium over them to ascertain that they would not be uncovered in the future - undisputed fact.
Both the independent inquiry into the massacre and the Kahan Commission report held Israel to be either directly or indirectly responsible for the massacre and held Ariel Sharon personally responsible - he was never brought to trial for this massive war crime - indisputable fact
You may nit-pick your way through these indisputable facts (on your own - "my job is done here", as you are fond of saying), but Israel has gone unpunished for a crime against humanity, and you are guilty of supporting its crime with your denials and evasions.
Feel free to continue
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:18 AM

Have to admit I hadn't notice the reference to the shootings before; the quote came, as I say, from   - the full statement was written by a retired USAF veteran Mahmoud El-Yousseph - I'm quite sure his name prohibits his word been believed.   
Are we to assume that Helen Seigal is to be regarded as a liar, as you claimed all those lying soldiers who didn't believe they were dying for a glorious cause i World War One?
Jim Carroll

By Mahmoud El-Yousseph
September 14, 2008
Sabra and Shatilla are two Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut, Lebanon where over two thousand Palestinians were massacred during three days in September 1982 by hundreds of Lebanese Phalange and Haddad militiamen with the aid and support of the Israeli Defense Forces.
During the 1982 Israeli invasion into Lebanon and siege of Beirut , U.S. Envoy Phillip Habib managed to have a written agreement whereby Palestinian fighters would leave Lebanon , providing a U.S. guarantee to the safety of Palestinian refugees left behind in the camps.
After Palestinian fighters evacuated Lebanon , the Israeli army sealed off Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps and established a command post at the Kuwaiti embassy, a seven-story building over looking both camps.
Present at the command post were the primary architects of the atrocity: Israeli Defense Minister Ariel Sharon and Chief of Lebanese Forces Intelligence Elie Hobeika, along with high-ranking Israeli army officials.
In the early morning of September 16th, the Israeli army allowed bloodthirsty armed militiamen to enter the camps, provided with weapons, bulldozers, and communication equipment. They were also given hashish and heroin to help them maintain "courage." For 48 hours, the militia participated in wholesale slaughter and rape. Women and children were not spared. The Israeli army lit the skies over the camps by firing flares during the nights, and also prevented residents of the camp from escaping . A group of refugees who reached the one of the Israeli checkpoint were ordered by soldiers to return back into the camp – even though they told soldiers that people are being slaughtered inside. This encounter was documented by a Scandinavian news crew.
Ellen Siegel was an American nurse from Baltimore who volunteered at Gaza hospital in Sabra camp. She was rounded up with 20 other foreign medical personal. Upon hearing the radio communications that the butchers inside the camp were ready to execute all of them, an army officer stopped the order and ran back to the camp to rescue Miss Siegel and another female nurse from Holland . The rest were lined up against the wall and executed. Miss Siegel was among 3 Americans who testified in the Kahane Commission, the Israeli official inquiry into the massacre.
No adjectives exist to describe this heinous atrocity. This crime was beyond all human and moral comprehension. However, an American journalist and researcher, Janet Stevens was among the first people to visit both camps the day after this ugly crime. She wrote the following testimony to her American friend Franklin Lamb:
"I saw dead women in their houses with their skirts up to their waists
and their legs spread apart; dozens of young men shot after being
lined up against an alley wall; children with their throats slit, a
pregnant woman with her stomach chopped open, her eyes still wide
open, her blackened face silently screaming in horror; countless
babies and toddlers who had been stabbed or ripped apart and who had
been thrown into garbage piles."

As the news and images of the massacre were broadcast worldwide, shockwaves, anger, and resentment were felt everywhere. I do remember exactly having the same feeling during the 9/11 terrorist attacks. In fact there were a lot similarities: The number of casualties almost the same, in both cases the victims were innocent civilians, and the perpetrators of both crimes were ruthless and did not value human life.

In Israel , 400,000 protesters took part in a peace rally in Tel Aviv demanding the resignation of Ariel Sharon and demanded he should be tried for war crimes.

An Israeli commentator denounced Sharon 's complicity into the massacre in a commentary which said in part, "…you can't toss a snake into a cradle, then act surprise when the baby gets bitten."

Meanwhile the Kahane Commission in Israel turned out to be a "kangaroo court" where the outcome was essentially predetermined, and the process was compromised. Several high-ranking military officers were found negligent, got a slap on the hand and later promoted. Sharon was forced to resign as the defense minister, and was barred for life from holding public office. Despite all of this, Israelis elected him in 2001 as their prime minister. In 2005, President Bush called this certified war criminal as "a man of peace". "The butcher of Beirut" would have been more accurate title to describe Ariel Sharon.

Eluding Justice: What happened to the victims and those responsible for the massacre 25 years later is mind-boggling.

* On June 18, 2001, several victims and other relatives sued Ariel Sharon for war crimes in a Belgium Court .
But under pressure from U.S. and Israeli governments, Belgium dropped the case as inadmissible. According to Franklin Lamb, Belgium scrapped the case after US Secretary of Defense then, Donald Rumsfeld, told Belgium: "It is your goddamned Sharon Trail or NATO Headquarter, you choose!"

* All militiamen who took part in the killing received amnesty from the Lebanese
government.

* Elie Hobeika was killed in a car bomb in Beirut 20 years after the massacre. His killing took place days after he gave an interview threatening to turn more damning evidence against Ariel Sharon in the Belgium Court.

* Two of Hobeika's top lieutenants were assassinated in a separate incidents

*Ariel Sharon suffered massive stroke in 2006 that ended his political career. Later, Israel 's cabinet declared Sharon officially "permanently incapacitated" until this day.

Finally, remember the 3 Americans who testified in the Kahane Commission?

Janet Stevens was killed during the 1983 bombing of the US Embassy in Beirut . She was pregnant with her first child, a baby boy. Mrs. Stevens went into the Embassy to seek more aid for the Lebanese people in the south and Palestinians in Beirut who were affected by the Israeli invasion and by the massacre. Mrs. Stevens' best friend, Franklin Lamb is a prominent researcher and author, frequently writing about the Middle East . Their work and sacrifices for human rights represent America 's pretty face.

Ellen Siegel continues to write letters, make calls, and write op ed. pieces to bring justice for the victims of the Sabra and Shatilla massacres and to promote genuine peace between Palestinians and Israelis. I had the privilege of meeting her in 1985 in a Washington , D.C. hotel lobby.. She has returned to Lebanon several times. She is currently in Lebanon for the 26th anniversary of the massacre to stand in solidarity with the Palestinians. To honor the and pay tribute the victims and their loved ones, she will be placing roses on the soil of the mass grave of the victims, and intend to silently recite Kaddish, the Hebrew prayer for the dead.

Mahmoud El-Yousseph
USAF Retired Veteran

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:47 AM

Steve, it is a fact that they fight from civilian areas so that retaliation kills civilians, so they use human shields.

Jim, she describes battle around the area of the hospital and treating the wounded.
In her original account she says there was no sound in the camp under the flares.
In either account, nothing she says contradicts Israel's version of events.

"Miss Siegel and another female nurse from Holland . The rest were lined up against the wall and executed. Miss Siegel was among 3 Americans who testified in the Kahane Commission, the Israeli official inquiry into the massacre.
Noam Chomski"

That was not rue according to both accounts.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

Noam Chomski [sic}

The well known apologist of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge....very reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:33 AM

NOAM CHOMSKI
"That was not rue according to both accounts."
Maybe - maybe not - but so what?
Please stop nit-picking to avoid the undeniable - and mainly undenied facts that have been put up
Both Doctor Goebbels and David Irving would have been ashamed of your cack-handed efforts - you'll never make the big-league if you go on the way you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 05:50 PM

Steve, it is a fact that they fight from civilian areas so that retaliation kills civilians, so they use human shields.

Fact my arse. Keith, this is received unwisdom from Islamophobic sources, unprovable by you or by any of your fellow-traveller racists. Churning it out machine-like by knee-jerk does not make it true. Do look at a bloody map. Gaza is a titchy-tiny territory (you could walk across it in an hour and a half) containing nearly two million people. It is one of the most crowded places on earth. Turn the bloody record over. They say the first casualty of war is truth. A big part of that casualty is the automatic and tedious claim, used in every modern conflict, especially against Muslims (easy meat, eh, Keith?), that your enemy is using human shields. Do have a think, and do grow up. You're bloody old enough.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 05:59 PM

Noam Chomski [sic}

The well known[sic] apologist of [sic] Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge

Really? Give us your evidence for this, or else just shut your slanderous gob, gobshite minnow. And I won't be holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Aug 14 - 08:36 PM

"I don't have "antipathy" towards AIPAC." Steve Shaw
Really!?

Hows this for non-antipathy? "...AIPAC, just about the most undemocratic setup it's possible to conceive of?" Or this, "AIPAC has Congress by the short and curlies. If a member of Congress briefs against Israel, AIPAC diverts lots of funding to their political enemies (and, if the miscreant was getting funding themselves, it's bye-bye to all that)." Or this, "...AIPAC will turn him [Pres. Obama] into toast." I would hate to read anything you wrote about AIPAC if you REALLY disliked it based on the slew of pejorative's you've used to describe that lobby. How self-delusional can you be?

I repeat, AIPAC does nothing different from any other lobbying group. Teachers unions actively work against candidates they deem anti-teacher, funding and working for their opponents; NOW advocates for a whole host of women's issues and funds those candidates who agree with them to the detriment of those who seem not to; and on and on to every group one can think of, no matter what their particular agenda. I repeat, your antipathy (hatred, repugnance, loathing, or you choose an apt descriptor) is because you, Steve Shaw, don't like what AIPAC stands for.

You may think you're so 'ice cool' for not using the "J" word,but you're really being dishonest by not. AIPAC supports Israel as a Jewish state; even the non-Jewish members of the group do. You are really weaseling a distinction without a difference. What I had meant to write yesterday in response your supposed non-use of 'Jewish Lobby' was to this effect: You would never write, "(I did not say National Organization for Women because men belong to that group.)" That would be an absurd aside. What you did write is equally so.

To summarize. AIPAC is a lobbying group to elicit support for the Jewish State of Israel, and vice versa. They give lots of money to those who agree with them, and withhold contributions from those who don't. No one has ever denied that. This is not news. This IS what lobbyists and PACs do—both sides. Get over it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 01:25 AM

Oh, yes: ever so "ice-cool". Here follow just a couple of extracts from Mr Ice-Cool's more recent posts. (Instances could no doubt be multiplied to ∞ if one could just trouble to go back a bit further):-

"just shut your slanderous gob, gobshite minnow...

Turn the bloody record over. .. grow up. You're bloody old enough".

& those from the one who recently assured us "my comments are, as ever, icy-cool (I wouldn't bother posting here otherwise".

So why bother at all, then? Or is Mr Ice-Cool on holiday for a bit, & Mr Scream'n'Shout standing in for him?

Just try a bit of the old Socratic "Know Thyself", why dontcha, Steve, & stop being so inenarrably conceited & pompous!

Best regards as ever

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:38 AM

Jim, "That was not rue according to both accounts."
Maybe - maybe not - but so what?"

An example of the lying that goes on against Israel.

Steve, it is legal to fire from civilian areas as we have all seen Hamas doing but you must evacuate civilians from the danger area.
Hamas does not and that is the "human shield" war crime.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:07 AM

"An example of the lying that goes on against Israel."
According to you - every criticism of Israel is "lies"
I have yet to see you accept any condemnation of Israel.
There are many dozens of eyewitness accounts of Israelis actually being on site and observing the massacre close at hand, accounts of women appealing to Israeli soldiers when they were being dragged away to be mob-raped before having their throats cut.
All these are to be had in plenty - unfortunately they are all by survivors, so it would be a waste of time putting them up.
Israel calling, Israel calling
Address the points made and stop prevaricating
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:29 AM

There are many dozens of eyewitness accounts of Israelis actually being on site and observing the massacre close at hand

Yes there are.
There are also eye witness accounts (by nurses) of Israelis throwing dozens of bodies off the MV Marmara, but it was lies.
There are also eye witness accounts of the Jenin massacre, and that was all lies.
Enemies of Israel lie against Israel.
Do not be so gullible and naive.

You chose to mention the "Jewish American nurse."
Her account does not support any of those claims, and nor does Robert Fisk's first report.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 08:50 AM

Guardian, 3 days ago.

It is no longer possible to deny that Europe still has a "Jewish problem". In France, synagogues have been firebombed. In Germany, chants of "Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas!" have been heard. The British Jewish community, too, is reporting a spike in antisemitic incidents – most thankfully non-violent – in a nasty spillover of anger over Gaza. "Free Gaza" was spray-painted onto a Brighton synagogue; a "child murderers" sign affixed to a synagogue in Surrey. This nastiness permeates polite society too: in sympathising with David Ward MP's pro-Hamas comments, former Lib Dem MEP Edward McMillan-Scott derided the Board of Deputies of British Jews as "a frightful bag of disputatious Jews".

Perhaps no wonder that Newsweek's cover story last week had the chilling headline: "Exodus: why Europe's Jews are fleeing once again".

Critics of Israeli policy might say that only Zionists, not all Jews, should be facing reproach for the operation in Gaza. But the anti-Jewish backlash – aimed at Jewish, not specifically Zionist, targets – has, ironically, reminded many Jews precisely why they need a safe and secure Jewish homeland in the first place – the essence of Zionism.

Why has the conflict in Gaza caused such a frightening reaction on the streets of Europe? One answer is that the media attention has been excessive, exaggerated beyond all reasonable proportions, and it is this which encourages outbursts of anger by appealing to the public's emotions. Tiny Israel ranks fifth in the list of foreign countries most reported on by the Guardian. Gaza is an important news story – but the wall-to-wall coverage leaves many scratching their heads. Nobody seems to recall similar attention devoted to the far greater civilian casualties of the UK's operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Why the disproportionate coverage of Israel? "Jews are news" many say, with a shrug. But this obsession with Israel's conduct tacitly encourages the easy slide into hostility towards Jews.

First, the reporting gives the false impression that the situation in Gaza, though tragic, is uniquely horrific. Compare it to the silence surrounding Isis's frightening rampage through Iraq: Mosul has been emptied of its ancient Christian community; hundreds of thousands of Yezidis have been cleansed from Nineveh province. Compare it also to coverage of the plight of Palestinians in Syria, where thousands of Palestinians have been killed and the Yarmouk refugee camp remains under siege. How many newspaper front pages have been devoted to these events?

The problem is not helped by hyperbole: one report on Sky News even compared the Gaza operation to the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Moreover, the flood of heartbreaking images of dead children addles the brain: Israel's protestations that it does more than any other army to avoid civilian casualties are simply laughed off. Israel is painted as irredeemably evil; its friends, accomplices in crime. I cannot count the number of times I have been told that if I am a Zionist – which means no more than believing that Israel has a right to exist – that means I must support the murder of children.

Second, much of the media have failed to seriously engage with Israel's moral and strategic dilemmas, assuming instead that Israel deliberately seeks civilian casualties.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/07/gaza-coverage-rise-antisemitic-attacks-europe

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:14 PM

We are especially horrified by what Israel does because we in the west unconditionally prop Israel up. We do not prop up many "Islamic" regimes, Keith. It all gives some of us a bit of a conscience. Let me just ask you why President Obama has been so quick to deploy his air strikes against ISIS (a strategy which, reluctantly, I support), yet has scarcely a word to say about the slaughter of innocent civilians in Gaza. Nothing to do with the pro-Israel lobby, I suppose? Your argument turned on its head, innit, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 04:51 PM

"just shut your slanderous gob, gobshite minnow...

Yes, well, Michael very old boy, the man (or woman - how would I know..) who calls himself or herself "bobad" is indeed an intellectual minnow. It is rare to see anyone here, even among you rabid Islamophobes, supporting this person. It's crystal clear that he or she is an infernal embarrassment to you all, what with his or her lack of development of argument and non-stop copy-and-pasting. And slanderous? Calling those who justifiably criticise (carefully) the actions of the state of Israel "Jew-haters"? Glad you can see your way to supporting that, Michael, though, in view of your recent posting history, I'm hardly surprised. Do carry on disingenuously trying to make me "civil", old fruit, but, if you don't mind, I will judge you by who you're in bed with, not by your faux-elegant turn of phrase. Nighty night. Don't let those nasty Muslims bite.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:33 PM

lack of development of argument and non-stop copy-and-pasting.....Calling those who justifiably criticise (carefully) the actions of the state of Israel "Jew-haters"

Now that's not at all fair, Steve, singling out BooBad - you're neglecting BullshotBruce!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 05:36 PM

the Jewish State of Israel

Hmmmm----- if it walks like a theocracy and calls itself a theocracy......

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:06 PM

Yes, it is interesting that the state of Israel has gone to great lengths (no exaggeration - no antisemitism!) to proudly characterise itself as a Jewish state (in spite of the fact that two million Arabs live in it, a lot more if you count the ones Israel holds prisoner in Gaza). So let's see. Those of us who criticise the state of Israel for its actions against the Gazan people are, no doubt, criticising a "Jewish state". Well I can't help that. The "Jewish state" wasn't my idea. Calling yourself a "Jewish state" does not immunise you against criticism for the most foul behaviour on the grounds that your critics are "antisemitic." Nice try, but bugger off!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:24 PM

Hows this for non-antipathy? "...AIPAC, just about the most undemocratic setup it's possible to conceive of?" Or this, "AIPAC has Congress by the short and curlies. If a member of Congress briefs against Israel, AIPAC diverts lots of funding to their political enemies (and, if the miscreant was getting funding themselves, it's bye-bye to all that)." Or this, "...AIPAC will turn him [Pres. Obama] into toast." I would hate to read anything you wrote about AIPAC if you REALLY disliked it based on the slew of pejorative's you've used to describe that lobby. How self-delusional can you be?

Every statement I made about AIPAC, everything you're getting all animated about, is a statement of fact. Actually, you don't appear to deny any of it. Good for you. But...

I repeat, AIPAC does nothing different from any other lobbying group.

Ah, the innocence of the naive! AIPAC is actually in control of Congress apropos of policy regarding Israel. I love lobby groups. We need them. But AIPAC makes sure that no politician in your Land Of The Free can ever raise a finger against Israel. Yes that is not illegal, but yes that is a damn sight more than is entailed by healthy and robust lobbying. AIPAC has crossed the line from healthy lobbying to sinister and undemocratic control by the wealthy and influential unelected. Of course, John, you can't see this, because you're a big supporter (member?) of AIPAC and a big supporter of Israel, and you don't get the full story from your benighted media. You are AIPAC's fodder. Good luck to you and AIPAC! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:26 PM

Now that's not at all fair, Steve, singling out BooBad - you're neglecting BullshotBruce!

Let me assure you, Greg, that if any man on this planet is worth neglecting, it's him.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Aug 14 - 06:46 PM

Can't argue with that, Steve - can't argue with that.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:12 AM

"I will judge you by who you're in bed with"
.,.,.

Don't care how you 'judge' me in the slightest, my dear young Steve; insofar, that is, as you may arrogate to yourself any 'judging' rights whatsoever. And I am not trying to make you 'civil': you just carry on being as rude as you like ~~ you merely, as Dr Leavis used to put it, 'place yourself'. It's the entertaining anomaly of your image of yourself as 'ice-cool'*, in conjunction with your perpetual 'gobshites' & 'bugger offs' [another of those just a couple of your posts back] to which I draw attention, in hopes that other readers of this thread may find it as exceptionally amusing as I do.. Is 'ice-cool' really your image of yourself, you foolish young fellow?

Regards again from the oh-so-helplessly-ancient

≈M≈

*"my comments are, as ever, icy-cool (I wouldn't bother posting here otherwise" --- well, hohoho and a parcel of bum!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:24 AM

In which connection, BTW, I would not disagree with the principle contained in your comment

'Calling yourself a "Jewish state" does not immunise you against criticism for the most foul behaviour on the grounds that your critics are "antisemitic." Nice try, but bugger off!'

--- but would add for your consideration that it does not by any means totally exclude the possibility that some antisemitism, on the part of some who deploy such 'criticisms', may be at least a part of their motivation, for all that.

Does it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 03:10 AM

"Does it?"
No it doesn't Mike, but unless you can point out such Antisemitism other than criticism of Israeli policy you have no evidence that any exists.
Israel supporters have erected a fence to defend her war crimes - "you're only arresting me because I'm black officer".
It isn't even original, let alone justified.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:11 AM

Entirely take your point, Jim. You know well my views on the matter, and the fact that you sometimes denounce them as 'lip-service' doesn't actually affect them at all. But you seemed in your last post to be asking me to demonstrate a negative, which notoriously can't be done in most cases.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:28 AM

... and I am not trying here to 'justify' anything. The mere adducement of the possibility which you agree exists, seems to me sufficient refutation, or at least querying, of Steve's point.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:59 AM

"You know well my views on the matter,"
I sometimes think I do and respect it, but to blows too hot and cold for me to be sure.
That there are Antisemites crawling out of the woodwork to take advantage pf what is happening is undeniable, but it really doesn't help to equate criticism of Israeli policy and such, in fact it feeds the monster.
Unfortunately, now Israeli behaviour has gone ballistic, this has become the mainstay of their response.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:18 AM

BBC on Gaza casualty figures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."

Spokesman Capt Eytan Buchman told BBC News that "the UN numbers being reported are, by and by large, based on the Gaza health ministry, a Hamas-run organisation".

He said that part of the reason for the discrepancy between the figures was "when militants are brought to hospitals, they are brought in civilian clothing, obscuring terrorist affiliations".

"Hamas also has given local residents directives to obscure militant identities," he said.

"It's important to bear in mind that in Operation Cast Lead [the last Israeli ground offensive in December 2008-January 2009], Hamas and Gaza-based organisations claimed that only 50 combatants were killed, admitting years later the number was between 600-700, a figure nearly identical to the figure claimed by the IDF."

It should be said that while Hamas said only 50 fighters had been killed in 2008-09, some human rights groups operating in Gaza were reporting considerably higher figures.

The point is that it is hard to say with certainty at this stage how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures - their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to revision.

But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:39 AM

Not that you were drawing conclusions even before the first blood of this particular episode eh Keith?

Quoting an Israeli militant may be good for the BBC balance in the story, but just quoting their disputed statistics and propaganda on these threads without the rest of the BBC story is disingenuous cherry picking.

If you saw your neighbour's house reduced to rubble and you had the opportunity to try and make sure yours wasn't next, would you be classed as a fighter? Even if you weren't at the beginning of the conflict?

As Steve said, you can walk West to East in an hour and a half in places. Now that Israeli terrorists have made the whole place uninhabitable, I doubt you can distinguish between combatants and civilians. This isn't about politics, culture or land now, it's about living or dying full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:12 PM

I gave the link so you could read it all, for instance this bit,

"Matthias Behnk, from OHCHR, told BBC News that the organisation would not want to speculate about why there had been so many adult male casualties, adding that because they were having to deal with a lot of casualties in a short time, they had "focused primarily on recording the casualties".

"As such, we have not at this stage conducted a detailed analysis of trends of civilian casualties, for example in relation to the reasons why different groups are affected and the types of incidents, but hope to carry this out at some point in the coming future," he said.

"However, even in the compiling of these preliminary figures, we cross-verify between different sources, not only media and several different human rights organisations, but also use other sources, including, for example, names of alleged fighters released by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and notices by armed groups in Gaza claiming someone as a member."

A number of other news organisations have been considering the civilian-to-fighter ratio.

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties." "

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:18 PM

the population most likely to be militants

You're joking, right FKWT?

Apparently this bogus statistical bullshit means something to you?

Something like "most likely to be" = "Are"?

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:23 PM

I believe Anthony Reuben, Head of statistics BBC News, even over you Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:27 PM

Jesus wept at Greggie's ignorance.


MAYBE if one realizes that:

Hamas HAS lied in the past.
The statistics do not support what Hamas claims.
EVERYTHING that Israel says does not HAVE to be a lie.
Hamas gets a benefit from killing Palestinians civilians.
Israel does NOT get a benefit from killing Palestinian civilians.

One MIGHT realize that the claims of Hamas require some verification, at LEAST as much as one demands from Israel, before being accepted and presented as facts.



That is if one used the same rules for Palestinians and Israelis- instead of showing anti-semitism by the EU definition, as the three stooges insist upon doing.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:49 PM

"nstead of showing anti-semitism by the EU definition, as the three stooges insist upon doing"
Did you reply about the domestic abuse incident?
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:52 PM

Its not about "belief", FKWT - as usual, this one went right over your head.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:53 PM

Jimmy boy,

I have no evidence about your domestic abuse.

Why would I even care who you were abusing now?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

Greggie boy,

It is about FACTS.

You have presented NONE.

YOU have repeated Hamas claims that are NOT supported by facts.

YOU are the one basing your claims on FAITH.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

YOU have repeated Hamas claims that are NOT supported by facts.

Where, exactly, Bullshot? Can you cite an instance or two?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:03 PM

What, Greggie?



ALL those lies you post are of your very own making???

I would NEVER have thought you could show such originality.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

I knew you couldn't back up your bullshit, Bullshot, but thanks for confirming it nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

And thank YOU for confirming that ALL of your posts have been lies.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:29 PM

And thank YOU for confirming that ALL of your posts have been lies.

You're hallucinating again, Bullshot. Adjust your meds.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:36 PM

Israel has been hiding behind the "Antisemitism" argument to offset its ongoing terrorist activity.
It used the argument of "defence" to slaughter as many people they have, when it was little more than a revenge killing.
They have used the excuse of "human shields" in order to justify the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians and the destruction of homes, schools hospitals public buildings, water and electricity supplies... turning much of Gaza into a bomb site.
They and their squalid bunch of supporters are now quibbling over exactly how many they have slaughtered, how old they were and whether they were resistance fighters or civilians
All sides exaggerate and lie in wartime - Israel is as guilty of this as anybody else and is far better equipped to do it than most.
CASUALTIES OF THE GAZAN WAR - 2008 -09
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

Jimmy boy,

Be careful what you post:

FROM YOUR CLICKY

"It was reported that Hamas fighters had been ordered not to wear military uniforms during the fighting.
That is a WAR CRIME that Hamas has yet to be held accountable for.

[15][16] Israeli-Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh wrote in The Jerusalem Post that this practice led to the over-counting of civilian casualties and under-counting Hamas military casualties, as Palestinian casualties arrived at hospitals without weapons or any other signs revealing they were actually fighters"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM

A collection of all the Tweets that Kenneth Roth, the rabidly anti-Israel head of Human Rights Watch, who said he isn't certain why young men seem to be "over-represented" among the dead in Gaza: it's "unclear if Hamas won't acknowledge fighters or Israel targets young men."

Several on Twitter stepped up to help clear up the confusion.

    @AviMayer @hrw @KenRoth Couldn't be bc.the young men are the Hamas fighters, right?? Oh wait, all Gazans are innocent civilians - I forgot
    —
    Lana (@Filala) August 09, 2014

    Give us an educated guess Ken. @KenRoth http://t.co/jEyr6zDfoT—
    Gil Lavi (@GilLavi) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth Yes, Israel targets young men with guns and rocket launchers.—
    Ofer Lando (@Ofernicus) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth wow. Record breaking pathetic tweet—
    Gil Eyal (@gileyal) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth bc u know those incidious Jews have special weapons that only target males #dumbass—
    Independent Patriot (@LibertysSpirit) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth so just to clarify, it is your suspicion that during combat, Israeli soldiers want to kill innocent bystanders, but only male?—
    Gil Eyal (@gileyal) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth That's massively unintelligent, even for you.—
    Oren Kessler (@OrenKessler) August 09, 2014

    @MiraWard375 @OrenKessler @dorothyofisrael @BenWeinthal @KenRoth It is pretty obvious they target young men with weapons.—
    NeoCon_Lbrtarian (@RachaelMadCow) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth @OrenKessler "or Israel targets young men" — using their famous age-distinguishing smart bombs, no doubt—
    Gary Weiss (@gary_weiss) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth lol. you're a parody of your already parodic self. impressive. and in public no less.—
    Richard Landes (@richard_landes) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth obvious to anyone with an understanding of the way terror cells work. Vast proportion = Hamas fighters. They got their wish. Death—
      (@Laurence0802) August 09, 2014

    .@KenRoth It certainly targets young men. Those who are members of Hamas or other militant factions.—
      (@neontaster) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth Oh, I get it. You're upset they're not targeting old men and women who are Hamas fighters. Makes sense.—
    Gary Weiss (@gary_weiss) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth Of course! That's why Israel requested the latest in young men seeking missiles! #twat—
    John Pendlebury (@John_Pendlebury) August 09, 2014

    Of course that age group is highly representative of casualtiesThat is the age of the males that ARE Hamas fighters @AviMayer @hrw @KenRoth—
    IHazClawzSee? (@meankitteh1) August 09, 2014

    .@HRW's @KenRoth thinks Israel might be "target[ing] young men." Probably something about Axe body spray. "Unclear." twitter.com/KenRoth/status…—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    @AviMayer @hrw @KenRoth Gosh do confusing. "Young men" in civilian clothes, with rocket burns on their hands. Must be civilians. Must be.—
    J A Hiker (@JHiker711) August 09, 2014

    The absolute, proven certainty that Hamas lies vs. a laughable smear alleging Israel "targets young men." @KenRoth: twitter.com/KenRoth/status…—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    Reminder, @KenRoth: Hamas first said 49 of its men were killed in Cast Lead, later admitting the number was 600-700 – bit.ly/1yhDCAD—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    Another reminder, @KenRoth: Ridiculous statements like this ( twitter.com/KenRoth/status…) only strengthen the perception that @HRW is a joke.—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    It's worse than a joke. Under @KenRoth, @hrw is the useful idiot, accepting terrorists' lies & undermining enlightened democracies @AviMayer—
    Jon Levin (@JNLevin) August 09, 2014

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:58 PM

Jim, do you have any examples of Israel lying?
On previous incursions their assessment of the casualties proved true and Hamas shown to have lied.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:00 PM

So now Kenneth Roth, whose Jewish father lived under Nazi rule, is an anti-Semite.

Boo, its hard to say who is the most deranged - you or Bullshot.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:04 PM

They and their squalid bunch of supporters are now quibbling over exactly how many they have slaughtered, how old they were and whether they were resistance fighters or civilians

You again claim that IDF kill civilians indiscriminately.
If that were true I would be with you in your outrage.
If some of the "civilian" dead are indeed Hamas fighters, you gullible dupes are naively believing propaganda lies again.

Do you not want to know, "how old they were and whether they were resistance fighters or civilians" ?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:05 PM

Greggie,

srael and Palestine

Kenneth Roth has been criticized by the Jerusalem-based NGO Monitor for allegedly being biased against Israel. Gerald M. Steinberg has been a long-time critic of Roth's role as head of Human Rights Watch from 1993. Writing in a 2004 Jerusalem Post article[28] in response to Roth's op-ed in which Roth accused NGO Monitor of disregarding basic facts, "fictitious allegations of bias" and a "fantasy-based discourse" which "does a deep disservice to Israel",[29]

In August 2006, during the war between Hezbollah and Israel, Roth rejected criticism of HRW's allegations against Israel, writing in a letter to the editor of the The New York Sun: "An eye for an eye — or, more accurately in this case, twenty eyes for an eye — may have been the morality of some more primitive moment. But it is not the morality of international humanitarian law which Mr. Bell pretends to apply." [30] In response, the head of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) referred to Roth's rhetoric as a reflection of "classic anti-Semitic stereotype about Jews".[31]

In reaction to Richard Goldstone's recantation of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict report, HRW Founder Robert Bernstein said to the Jerusalem Post in April 2011, referring to Roth, that it "is time for him to follow Judge Goldstone's example and issue his own mea culpa."[32]

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM

I do.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:12 PM

"Under Roth's leadership, Human Rights Watch has been criticized for perceived biases.[20]"


I even found a source that the stooges will have to believe!

"It is a politicised report lacking objectivity and impartiality".
-The Hamas information ministry, Aljazeera.net, August 13, 2009.
(In response to the report, Rockets from Gaza)



So if HAMAS thinks he is biased…

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:12 PM

So, Bullshot, Roth is an "anti-Semite" because: (True or False)

1. Gerald Steinberg and his pro-Israel lobbying group say so.
2. He has criticized actions of the Government of Israel.
3. You and Boo say so.
4. The ADL/JDL pro-Israel lobbying group says so.

Circle the correct answer:

a. 1
b. 2
c. 3
d. 4
e. All of the above
f. None of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM

Netanjahu & co need Hamas in order to justify their policies just as Hamas needs Netanjahu & co to justify their actions. If Hamas were to hand out prizes for services to recruitment, Netanjahu and the Israeli government would win hands down every time. Some Likud Knesset members are on record as wanting to deport the population of Gaza to Egypt.

As the israeli writer Meir Shalev wrote in a recent essay, Netanjahu misuses/abuses the shoah for his own ends. Furthermore, according to Shalev, Netanjahu suffers from a short-sightedness for which there is no medical definition: he is unable to see further than a week..........Shalev also writes that the commander of the Givati brigade(IDF) gave his troops a little 'morale booster' before they went into Gaza. This was nothing more than extreme religious fundamentalism, referring to Hamas in terms like 'blasphemous enemy' and, in effect, he was sending his troops on a little jihad into Gaza. This, apparently, did not go down well with a lot of Israelis. Also according to Shalev, the messianic, extreme right in Israel are on the verge of becoming something that earlier would have been unthinkable, a jewish neonazi party.

Some people here might like to use their fantasy, assuming they have any, and ask themselves how they would behave living under military occuptaion for 47 years, seeing their land stolen, having to survive behind a blockade and having nothing left to loose etc. etc. Don't such people have a moral right to resistance against the occupying power?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:17 PM

Greggie boy,

How about

"Because he applies a different standard to Israel than he does to the rest of the world."


THAT is in the EU definition of anti-semitism.




Oh, I forgot- YOU don't like to deal with facts...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:35 PM

And since you like him, here is what he says about your dear friends in Hamas.

http://www.hrw.org/node/82366


Or is it you only agree when he attacks Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:15 PM

Hear, hear, Lynn.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:16 PM

Bullshot, its past your bedtime. Go beddie-bye.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM

Don't such people have a moral right to resistance against the occupying power?

Absolutely they do. And it's hard to see how else they could have resisted Israel's single-minded belligerence.


And I'm still waiting for Keith's deeper analysis of his "1431 casualties". What I want to know, Keith, if one third of your "casualties" were men aged 20 to 29, who were the other two-thirds? Full details, please. And what percentage of the US army or the UK army are men aged 20 to 29? I know you won't think that's a fair question, because I know you'll be thinking that "terrorists" shouldn't be allowed "armies", eh, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:22 PM

"Because he applies a different standard to Israel than he does to the rest of the world."


THAT is in the EU definition of anti-semitism.




Oh, I forgot- YOU don't like to deal with facts...

Well I like to deal in facts. So would you please give me the source of that definition. And, as I'm wary of "facts" taken out of context, please give me the whole context, not some unattributed quote. I probably shouldn't be holding my breath (would you be voting for us to stay in the EU, by the way?)

I might add that, in my opinion, holding Israel to higher standards would be rather a good idea. After all, we give them rollicking good trade deals and we pay for their military, without question. That's quite a good setup for Israel. Perhaps, unlike what we do now, we should be bit more attentive to what responsibility they exercise in return. But we aren't. We just let them get on with it, no questions asked, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:30 PM

would you be voting for us to stay in the EU, by the way?

No, Bullshot is a Yank- you know, the country that gives Israel even bigger gobs of money than the UK does.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:16 PM

Ah, right. Thank God he's a yank and not a Brit, says I. You gotta feel sorry for yanks, though, Greg. In view of the all-powerful pro-Israel lobby and their biased media, it's really hard for them to find the full Middle East story. Even harder when they don't want to. Mucho kudos to those who do. There are one or two here. Equally, there are, sadly, a couple of truly blinkered Brits here too. I refer you to the infernal Keith 'n' Michael show.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM

Go easy on the Yanks, Steve - being one myself. ;>) We're not all of us right-wing TeaParty morons.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:09 PM

Asked about a comment made last year that he would most like to see Netanyahu stand trial in the Hague, Schabas said the comments were made in reference to the Goldstone Report, a UN Human Rights Council investigation that claimed Israel had committed war crimes during the 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead by deliberately targeting civilians during fighting in the Gaza Strip.

"I didn't prejudge him and I didn't say he was guilty," Schabas told Army Radio. "I was making a comment in the context of a discussion about the priorities of the International Criminal Court. I think probably every person in Israel has criticized the government in Israel at some point or other in their lives and the suggestion that I've delivered a verdict on this is wrong and unfair."

Finance Minister Yair Lapid, in an interview with Channel 2 later on Tuesday evening, pointed out that it was former prime minister Ehud Olmert who was in office during Operation Cast Lead and not Netanyahu.

"This is a ridiculous commission, set up by a ridiculous organization," Lapid said.

UN Gaza probe head says he's not anti-Israel, will be impartial

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:20 PM

So because in a slip of the tongue he named the incorrect Prime Minister, that means Israel DIDN'T commit war crimes during the 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead by deliberately targeting civilians during fighting in the Gaza Strip.

You're even more of an imbecile than I thought, Boo!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:36 PM

"Asked about a comment made last year that he would most like to see Netanyahu stand trial in the Hague, Schabas said the comments were made in reference to the Goldstone Report"

Our report found evidence of potential war crimes and "possibly crimes against humanity" by both Israel and Hamas. That the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets.

The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion. While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee's report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.

Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:48 PM

Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes:

Israel's lack of cooperation with our investigation meant that we were not able to corroborate how many Gazans killed were civilians and how many were combatants.

We made our recommendations based on the record before us, which unfortunately did not include any evidence provided by the Israeli government.

While I welcome Israel's investigations into allegations, I share the concerns reflected in the McGowan Davis report that few of Israel's inquiries have been concluded and believe that the proceedings should have been held in a public forum. Although the Israeli evidence that has emerged since publication of our report doesn't negate the tragic loss of civilian life, I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:45 AM

Don't bracket me entirely with Keith, please, Steve. My approval of Israel is at present pretty well zero. Their unnecessary W Bank expansionist policies &c have been a great disappointment to me -- indeed, to all of us who worked for the foundation of the state all those years ago; hence also all those other disappointed Jewish luminaries [Einstein, Chomsky et al] always being cited. I didn't strive all those years to establish an aggressive entity which would unnecessarily destroy the livelihoods of an innocent hardworking community to establish settlements that could easily, but for doctrinaire determination, have been established elsewhere (plenty of the Negev left to colonise still). I have said all this here countless times before. So less of your K&M Show, please.

OTOH it is still one of the few outposts of civilisation in that blighted benighted crucifying-stoning-beheading-caning area; & clearly retains the full right of any nation to defend itself against attack.

Re the EU laws ref'd above which you sought the source for, wiki European Monitoring Centre On Racism & Xenophobia & follow links.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:31 AM

"clearly retains the full right of any nation to defend itself against attack"
You rightfully claim this on behalf of the Israelis Mike, but seem reluctant to grant the same right to the Palestinians.
If one people have a right to self-defence, then all have.
It only takes a quick count of casualties and fatalities, of loss of land, of number and intensity of military incursions, of prevailing living conditions, of freedom of movement and of human aspiration... to see which is the wealthier, stronger and most aggressive and which is the victim.
A late friend of ours attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem back in the eighties.
Politically he was 'liberal left', a gentle humanitarian who regarded everybody equally and having no particular political axe to grind.
After the first few days he sent us a card which read something like, "Beam me up Scotty - its like being in a military outpost surrounded by uniformed, unfriendly bullies keeping the natives in order - can't wait to get home and down a decent pint of Guinness".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

Don't know what you mean there, Jim. I clearly posted, and you copied, "the right of ANY nation"; which of course includes the Palestinians if and when they are attacked. If they haven't the resources to defend themselves effectively, you had better refer the matter to those 'leaders' of theirs who have milked off all the aid that has come in from various sources to enrich themselves. You know this is the case -- everyone knows. That's why they they are the less 'strong, aggressive' & the rest of it. You can hardly blame the Israelis for that.

{In fact, you can; you can find reasons to blame the Israelis for anything & everything, Jim. I have my strong reservations about them, and my ongoing grievous disappointments, as you know, & will admit in some of your occasional more rational moments. But there is something manic in your constant shrieking hysterical hate-filled denunciations which points in some rather unsavoury directions and at some rather undesirable motivations which you would rather not acknowledge. You think it doesn't but it does.}

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:26 AM

JERUSALEM — The leader of a United Nations panel that investigated Israel's invasion of Gaza two years ago has retracted the central and most explosive assertion of its report — that Israel intentionally killed Palestinian civilians there.
   
Richard Goldstone, an esteemed South African jurist who led the panel of experts that spent months examining the Gaza war, wrote in an opinion article in The Washington Post that Israeli investigations into the conflict "indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy."

"If I had known then what I know now," he wrote, "the Goldstone Report would have been a different document."

His article, which was posted on The Post's Web site on Friday night, follows a report submitted two weeks ago by a committee of independent experts led by Mary McGowan Davis, a former New York judge, that said that Hamas had not conducted any internal investigations of its own but that Israel had devoted considerable resources in looking into more than 400 accusations of misconduct.

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:29 AM

You did of course Mike, and I misread what you said - sincerest apologies - too early in the morning and brain not in gear yet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:12 AM

Steve, re the casualty figures.
They prove that Israel is not killing indiscriminately.
Children and females are under-represented, all males are over-represented, and young men very over-represented.

That anomaly requires explanation.
The most likely would be that Hamas is lying about the status of its casualties.
Have you another?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:30 AM

"They prove that Israel is not killing indiscriminately."
Then they are deliberate.
"Children and females are under-represented, all males are over-represented, and young men very over-represented."
Sex and age are immaterial even if they had been qualified and confirmed, which they have not, are both an immaterial and disgusting justification of these murders - thhe vast majority of them are non-combatants and the killing of non combatants, indiscriminate or deliberate is murder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

GENEVA, Aug. 11 — A Geneva-based human rights group called on William Schabas to recuse himself from the UN's new Gaza inquiry, saying that he is legally disqualified by prior statements expressing his wish to see Prime Minister Netanyahu and former President Shimon Peres indicted before the International Criminal Court.

"Under international law, William Schabas is obliged to recuse himself because his repeated calls to indict Israeli leaders obviously gives rise to actual bias or the appearance thereof," said Hillel Neuer, an international lawyer and executive director of UN Watch, accredited to the United Nations as a non-governmental organization mandated to monitor the world's body's adherence to the UN Charter.

"You can't spend several years calling for the prosecution of someone, and then suddenly act as his judge," said Neuer. "It's absurd — and a violation of the minimal rules of due process applicable to UN fact-finding missions."


Prior statements of Schabas demonstrating bias or appearance thereof:

- "My favorite would be Netanyahu within the dock of the International Criminal Court," Schabas declared last year. (See video at 12:29)

- Schabas was an active participant before a pro-Palestinian "tribunal" that, according to a New York Times op-ed by Judge Richard Goldstone, consisted of one-sided evidence and a jury composed of "critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known."

- In a law journal article, Schabas wrote that Netanyahu could be considered "the single individual most likely to threaten the survival of Israel."

- A few years earlier, Schabas called for "going after" Israeli president Shimon Peres in the ICC, saying, "Why are we going after the president of Sudan for Darfur and not the president of Israel for Gaza?"

- In a 2009 blog post about the UN's infamous Durban II conference on racism, Schabas urged the world not only to "ignore" Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's statements, but to stop "exaggerating" them. According to Schabas, those who "deserve the blame" are "Israel and its friends, who have manipulated the truth about the nature of the work of the United Nations by gross exaggeration of the role and intervention of certain fanatics." Schabas described Ahmadinejad as nothing more than a "provocative politician," and not a torturer of dissidents, inciter of genocidal anti-Semitism, and arch-sponsor of terrorism.

- In 2011, Schabas went to Iran to co-sponsor conferences with the Tehran-based "Center for Human Rights and Cultural Diversity," despite its intimate ties with the fundamentalist regime, and avowed propaganda agenda. The center's director, Kamran Hashemi, a former political officer with Iran's foreign ministry, wrote his Ph.D under Schabas at the Irish Center for Human Rights.

UN Watch

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

My post did have a get-out clause for good yanks, Greg. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 07:56 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel.

The fact that Israel is being taken to task by the U.N. for alleged war crimes in Gaza is absurd, and a disgrace to the United Nations whose whole purpose is supposed to be to champion human rights and not oppress them."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:08 AM

"Civilisation?" The Israeli Attack Force has killed 500 children in a month. Let's have your figures for crucifyings/stonings/beheadings/canings, and don't forget to define your "area". Er, not just Gaza, I assume? Don't broaden it too much, though, or else we might have to include executions per annum in the US as well and the mass deaths in the aftermath of western sanctions against and invasion of Iraq. Oh, and Afghanistan while we're at it.

It's so nice of you to express your teary disappointment with Israel. But I note the contrast with your vitriolic attacks on the tiny minority of violent Muslims who bring Islam in disrepute (not to speak of your attack on Islam in general) at the very time when innocent Muslims are being indiscriminately slaughtered. This is exactly why I regard you as an Islamophobe. Still, at least Keith may be feeling a little disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

Children and females are under-represented, all males are over-represented, and young men very over-represented.

That anomaly requires explanation.
The most likely would be that Hamas is lying about the status of its casualties.
Have you another?

Yes. In fighting units the world over, armies, navies, militias, whatever, men aged 20 to 29 are going to be over-represented. They are the ones doing the shooting and the ones who get shot at. Yours sincerely, Steve, Professor of Plain-As-The-Nose-On-Your-Face, University of the Bleedin' Obvious. What is it Musket calls you? Not Top Cat, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:26 AM

That anomaly requires explanation.

Have done so twice already. Try to keep up, Top Cat.

The most likely would be that Hamas is lying about the status of its casualties.

Look up "weasel words" on wiki.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:36 AM

Have no extensive statistics to hand; but some will be found in following from Wikipedia, which I copy just as a kind of 'for example' of the sorts of things I am on about. I have hilighted a couple of passages, inc those noting penalties for offences not even illegal in most places:

=====================================================

Corporal and capital punishment in Saudi Arabia
Judicial corporal punishment --- In Saudi Arabia this includes amputations of hands and feet for robbery, and flogging for lesser crimes such as "sexual deviance" and drunkenness. In the 2000s, it was reported that women were sentenced to lashes for adultery; the women were actually victims of rape, but because they could not prove who the perpetrators were, they were deemed guilty of committing adultery.[12] The number of lashes is not clearly prescribed by law and is varied according to the discretion of judges, and ranges from dozens of lashes to several hundreds, usually applied over a period of weeks or months. In 2004, the United Nations Committee Against Torture criticized Saudi Arabia over the amputations and floggings it carries out under Sharia. The Saudi delegation responded defending "legal traditions" held since the inception of Islam 1,400 years ago and rejected interference in its legal system.
Saudi Arabia also engages in capital punishment, including public executions by beheading.[13] The death penalty can be imposed for a wide range of offences[14] including murder, rape, armed robbery, repeated drug use, apostasy,[15] adultery,[16] witchcraft and sorcery[17] and can be carried out by beheading with a sword,[15] stoning or firing squad,[16] followed by crucifixion.[17] In 2005 there were 191 executions, in 2006 there were 38, in 2007 there were 153, and in 2008 there were 102.[18]
============================================================

All most praiseworthy & hunky·dory to Steve & all our other Islamophiles, no doubt.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 08:45 AM

Steve,
Yes. In fighting units the world over, armies, navies, militias, whatever, men aged 20 to 29 are going to be over-represented.

Fighting units are legitimate targets.
Hamas claims they are civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:24 AM

That wasn't your point, Tee Cee. Stop moving the goalposts. Some of us notice when you do that. We're not all Top Cats, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:31 AM

Yes, not very nice, Michael. But you're Islamophobic because, unlike me, you focus only on atrocities (and atrocities they are, as you'll note I'm always at pains to point out) perpetrated by the one side. I'm perfectly happy to condemn all your highlighted "Islamic" atrocities as atrocities. Even Hamas rockets aimed at civilians (though I haven't worked out how else they can resist - cue pointless lecture from Keith). But the really nasty thing is that you choose to rail against "Islamic" crimes (though crimes not sanctioned by the holy text) during the very month that 500 children have been slaughtered by the nation that you're merely "disappointed" by.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:32 AM

"Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."
"

So ONLY HAMAS has been murdering Palestinian civilians, regardless of what the three stooges have claimed.

At least according to the Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:34 AM

That was my point.
Why do you say it is not?
The figures show that Hamas is lying about the number of civilian casualties, and the media has been passing their lies on to the world as UN supplied fact.
You have been deceived by them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:51 AM

Well, Top Cat, let's have a little think about this. Do Hamas have an army? Hmm, well no, not really. You wouldn't really want them to have one, would you? So what is a "civilian" then? If an Israeli soldier burst into my house, threatened my wife and kids, I punched his nose and made him scarper - well am a I still a civilian? Freedom fighter? Terrorist maybe? Military man? Would it be different if I'd cracked him over the head with a machete instead of punching him? You see, the reason you're trying to make a lot of this is that you would far rather dwell on the one-third of your "1431 casualties" who might just have been involved in the fighting (not forgetting, of course, that many might not have been, and neither you nor I has figures to put on that), and try to divert us away from the other two-thirds, who were definitely not involved in the fighting, and which included, among many other innocents such as women and elderly people, about 500 children. Or perhaps you'd like to persuade us that those kids were all carrying grenades or something. I wouldn't put it past you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:53 AM

Barking mad, Bruce, barking mad.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:56 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
I suggest you back and read exactly what the ambassador said.
He points out that both the attack on civilians and homes are "crimes against humanity"
You can work out for yourself just which was the greater crime - the rockets have killed 18 in twelve years - how man was it who have been killed in the last three weeks in Gaza?
At not time does he mention the justification of either.
Your description of what he said was not "candid" - it was a distortion
The question of the "warnings" is a red-herring - officials at hospitals which were blitzed were given hardly any time to evacuate the buildings - an impossible task to carry out in the time.
".....when an Israeli military officer called the hospital late on Tuesday warning that it must be evacuated by 8am the following morning"
TERMINALLY ILL HOSPITAL DEFIES WARNINGS
In early attacks, staff described having been given an hour's notice
"Fighting units are legitimate targets."
You have no evidence what they are, but like your statement that the Gazan lad who was beaten to death by extremist Israeli thugs when you stated that it was an "honour killing" - you are once again taking Israel's word for it (that turned out to be an attempt to smear the victim.
You are once again trying to smear the victims by making them terrorists -where is your proof for any of this.
You are a sordid little man   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:58 AM

Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 09:53 AM

Barking mad, Bruce, barking mad.


Is this an admission of your mental state?

I see NO factual basis to call the Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi, a liar, though YOU seem to be able to call ANYONE who disagrees with your OPINION one.

If you don't agree with what he says, why not argue THAT, instead of making unsubstantiated statements about people who report things you don't want to hear???

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:01 AM

Jimmy,

YOUR making statements does NOT change WHAT HE SAID:

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel.

The fact that Israel is being taken to task by the U.N. for alleged war crimes in Gaza is absurd, and a disgrace to the United Nations whose whole purpose is supposed to be to champion human rights and not oppress them."





YOUR comments are NOT supported by facts- YOU LIE.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

Hamas does have an army of fighters, uniformed and heavily armed.
Who do you think responsible for IDF's unprecedented casualties?
They launch the rockets, emerge from the tunnels and fire mortars into Israel.
They are not non-combatants and not civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:08 AM

"Fighting units are legitimate targets."
You have no evidence what they are.

The casualty statistics are strong evidence.

The figures show that Hamas is lying about the number of civilian casualties, and the media has been passing their lies on to the world as UN supplied fact.
You have been deceived by them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:12 AM

Jimmy, YOU STATE:

"I suggest you back and read exactly what the ambassador said.
He points out that both the attack on civilians and homes are "crimes against humanity"
You can work out for yourself just which was the greater crime - the rockets have killed 18 in twelve years - how man was it who have been killed in the last three weeks in Gaza?
At not time does he mention the justification of either.
"Your description of what he said was not "candid" - it was a distortion"

If you cannot provide ANY indication of where you heard this, I will ( continue, as for all your post) to think you made it up. That has been your past history.



"The question of the "warnings" is a red-herring - officials at hospitals which were blitzed were given hardly any time to evacuate the buildings - an impossible task to carry out in the time.
".....when an Israeli military officer called the hospital late on Tuesday warning that it must be evacuated by 8am the following morning"
TERMINALLY ILL HOSPITAL DEFIES WARNINGS
In early attacks, staff described having been given an hour's notice"

Perhaps HAMAS should NOT have been using those buildings as military storage and command sites, WHICH REMOVES THEIR PROTECTED STATUS according to the Geneva Conventions.



" like your statement that the Gazan lad who was beaten to death by extremist Israeli thugs when you stated that it was an "honour killing" - you are once again taking Israel's word for it (that turned out to be an attempt to smear the victim."

Since I have NEVER MADE SUCH A STATEMENT, this is another of your blatant lies.



"You are once again trying to smear the victims by making them terrorists -where is your proof for any of this."

I have been akin YOU that question about your blaming Israel for Hamas rockets killing Palestinian civilians, but you seem to be incapable of addressing any request for you to provide evidence for your lies.



I cannot call you a " sordid little man" as your MANhood is in doubt- a lying kid, perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:17 AM

Hamas does have an army of fighters, uniformed and heavily armed.

What are they called? Where are their barracks? Where do they do their drill? Hang on a mo, there's an army of peacock butterflies on my buddleia...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 10:24 AM

Trouble is, bruce, I can't help harbouring this image of you, a funny little goatee-sporting goblin in a pointy hat with bells on, leaping up and down hysterically shouting about how Hamas has murdered just about everyone who has ever been murderable. What's noticeable about both you and bobad is that the chaps here who one might have thought would be your allies never, ever speak up in support of you. I reckon you probably make even Keith shift uncomfortably from buttock to buttock at times.

Go on, tell me you're really a six foot eight Adonis with a PhD in philosophy...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM

Some nice pictures of Hamas soldiers here Steve.
http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/what-is-army.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:20 PM

Well thanks for that amazingly unbiased link, Keith. :-)

Actually, I normally think of states having armies. Now I'm getting really confused. Anyway, never mind that. What about those two-thirds of your "1431 casualties" who definitely were not in any sort of army or wotteverwewannacall it? And, by the way, Keith, do you think that dead women, old people and children care whether they're under-represented or not?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:35 PM

Let's try do be objective about an emotive and tragic issue Steve.

The figures show that Hamas is lying about how many civilian casualties there are.
It is what you would see if soldiers were fighting from civilian areas.

That is the war crime of using human shields.
Civilian casualties are inevitable as the result of that war crime, and committing that war crime does not make it illegal to strike back at them.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:38 PM

Well thanks for that amazingly unbiased link, Keith. :-)
You only had to look at the pictures. Do you imagine they are faked?

Actually, I normally think of states having armies.
There are exceptions.
Hezbollah for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

Lucky that Jewish Palestine, before if was the state that became Israel, had an army, Haganah. They were highly trained and motivated, ready to repel that invasion of all the surrounding Arab states when it occurred.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:36 PM

UK announcement on arms 'exceedingly odd' — Steinitz

In a somewhat backhanded way, Strategic Affairs Minister Yuval Steinitz slams the British government's announcement to halt arms sales to Israel in case the fighting with Hamas resumes.

"I heard it, but although I have a PhD in philosophy, I didn't understand it," he says about UK Business Secretary Vince Cable's announcement that, "in the event of a resumption of significant hostilities," London will suspend 12 export licenses for equipment that could be used by the Israeli army in Gaza.

"If this is the message, this is exceedingly odd," Steinitz says at a press conference in Jerusalem. "If Hamas will choose to resume the fighting, Britain will [place] some restrictions on defense cooperation with Israel? I hope this is not the message, because this might be very encouraging for Hamas to resume fire."

Steinitz says he knows many British people and government officials and that most of them are extremely intelligent. "I don't want to believe that this is the message. So I prefer to say that I misunderstood it."

– Raphael Ahren

Read more: Rocket hits near Ashkelon, 2 hours before end of ceasefire | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/day-37-london-to-nix-some-arms-sales-to-israel-if-fighting-resumes/#ixzz3AIo80gu4

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:41 PM

Gaza City (Palestinian Territories) (AFP) - A 72-hour truce between Israel and Hamas teetered on the brink of collapse Wednesday with a rocket hitting the Jewish state just hours before it expired at midnight.

Shortly before the rocket hit, an official told AFP Israel was willing to extend the lull by another three days as the Palestinians expressed hope they could reach a deal in indirect talks brokered by Egypt.

Israel police and the army said the rocket hit an open area near Gaza's northern border shortly after sirens rang out across the south.

But Hamas, Gaza's Islamist de facto rulers, said its militants were not responsible.

"Hamas denies firing any rockets towards the occupation this evening," spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said in a statement.

The attack jeopardised the hopes of millions who were banking on Egyptian mediators to clinch an agreement after days of frantic shuttle diplomacy between Israeli and Palestinian delegations.

Without agreement on an extension or a long-term truce, the two sides risk a resumption of the deadly fighting, which has killed more than 1,950 Palestinians and 67 on the Israeli side since July 8.





Not ONCE has a ceasefire run out of time- they have ALL been violated BY HAMAS before the end.

AND NOT ONCE have any of the stooges said a word about it.





They seem to WANT to have more Palestinian civilians killed by Hamas, so they can blame Israel.

What a bunch of sick SFBs.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:02 PM

Let's try do be objective about an emotive and tragic issue Steve....That is the war crime of using human shields.

Let's be objective about "human shields", Keith. You have no evidence that Hamas has ever used people as human shields. It's what one always say about one's enemy in order to salve one's bad conscience regarding collateral damage (as we used to call it: "human shields" sounds like a far better excuse for killing innocent people). If you have evidence that Hamas has used human shields, then let's have it. And, as I always have to tell pete, evidence does not mean links to biased sources. You're quite good at that. Not as good as minnow bobad, of course, who is so inarticulate that biased sources are all he can manage. Or she. He could be a girl I suppose. I hope not, girls.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:50 AM

Thanks for the interesting link Keith:

http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/what-is-army.html

Anybody who bothered to open it should have noted the "transport" the Hamas or Islamic Jihad "fighters" with the RPG's were sitting on - in conflict zones only one organisations vehicles are painted white - those of the UN.

OK then Christmas, Greg F, Qur'an Shaw - care to tell us how and why these brave souls are pictured posing on a UN vehicle and would you as an enemy commander view them as being a legitimate military target posed as they are (I dare say the women. old men and the children are crammed in the back ready for the post strike photo-op). I take it from their uniforms that none of you clowns are going to try and claim that these tossers are part of Hamas or Islamic Jihad's Mountain and Arctic Warfare Cadre.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 04:31 AM

Steve, there is undeniable proof that Hamas launches rockets and other military operations from civilian areas without evacuating.
That is what the term "human shields" refers to.
They are guilty.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 08:16 AM

Here is a clip of Hamas fighters setting up and launching in a civilian area.
The soldiers are in civilian clothes and would be counted as civilians if they became casualties.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/06/world/middleeast/indian-tv-crew-shows-rare-video-of-rocket-launch-from-gaza.html?action=click&

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 12:09 PM

It is time for moral clarity on Gaza. The facts bear repeating. Hamas intentionally started this conflict. Hamas militants built miles of underground tunnels -- at least 30 tunnels in all -- using about 600,000 tons of cement and other materials that could have built homes or schools for Palestinians. Instead, it went into a sickening subterranean network of tunnels designed to carry out surprise terrorist attacks across the border in Israel.

It has been said that the only real growth industries in Gaza are in rocket-building and tunnel construction. This unconscionable waste of resources has brought about the two crowning "cultural" achievements of Hamas: Thousands of rockets raining down on Israeli towns and cities and terrorists armed to the teeth emerging from holes in the ground, intent on kidnapping more Israeli soldiers and killing Israeli civilians. This culture of death is an essential part of Hamas' identity and ideology and has motivated the Hamas leaders for the more than eight years they have controlled Gaza.

The world knows that Hamas intentionally stores its rockets in homes, mosques, hospitals and schools. No matter how careful Israel tries to be in warning civilians before attacks, no matter how much restraint it exercises, Hamas has guaranteed that civilians will be victims. Children make up nearly half the population of Gaza, and so women and children are among those dying because of Hamas's maximalist strategy against Israel.

In Israel and Gaza, a war against peace

Israel did not want this war, and certainly does not want to see civilians killed. But no matter, the calumny continues to rain down on Israel. What hypocrisy this is.
Has anyone condemned Hamas for the death of 160 children during the construction of the Gaza tunnels? The Institute for Palestinian Studies reports Hamas uses child labor to build its terror tunnels and prizes their nimbleness and work ethic.
On the news every day there is the macabre body count of how many civilians have lost their lives in Gaza, invariably accompanied by a comparison with the cost of life for Israeli soldiers and civilians. Counts vary, but most put the numbers of Palestinian deaths around 1,800 and Israeli deaths at 65.

All deaths that come about as a result of this conflict are tragic. But who is taking steps to limit casualties? Israel. Who is apologizing for the loss of life in Gaza? Israel. Hamas, on the other hand, tries at every opportunity to inflict as much pain as possible on Israel, trying to kill more Israeli civilians by firing rockets at large population centers, by sending suicide bombers across the border and sacrificing the lives of their own children. They make no apologies for their culture of death.

Look out at the world, there is no shortage of horrific violence and tragic death. Death by the thousands, by the tens of thousands in Syria; human destruction in Libya, in Afghanistan, in Iraq. Muslims slaughtering Muslims. And in Iraq, Muslims are killing Christians. Why have the voices of outrage in response to the more than 170,000 dead as a result of Syria's civil war gone silent?
There are no cameras out there, there are few editorials, and there are even fewer demonstrations in the streets of Paris, of Rome or London.
Here is where moral myopia verges on moral blindness. It seems the world wakes up only when Jews in their own defense -- defending their men, women and children -- are forced to kill Muslims and Palestinians. That's when the world demonstrates.

This is the true hypocrisy of the "condemn Israel" phenomenon.

And there can be no doubt that the anti-Israel campaign that is unfolding around the world is a function of the anti-Semitism that we know lurks just underneath the surface in some European societies and is all-but rampant across the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:21 PM

You wouldn't understand "moral clarity" if it jumped up and bit you on the arse. I wonder whether five hundred dead kids would appreciate your "moral clarity" if they're up there looking down at you from somewhere.

Oops, forgot! I'll just stand out of your way while you leap around screaming that Hamas has murdered everyone murderable since before the Big Bang...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:29 PM

Steve,

You seem to be supporting Hamas-

160 dead kids to build attack tunnels
650- 1000 antipersonnel warheads hitting Gaza LAUNCHED BY HAMAS
Not ONE shelter built for civilians in Gaza.
When Israel warns Palestinian Civilians to evacuate a site ( being used BY HAMAS for military purposes) Hamas tells them ( and sometime forces them) to remain in the declared attack zone.

I see where YOUR morals are: The more dead Palestinian civilians, the happier you are.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:30 PM

It has been said that

The world knows that

On the news every day

Counts vary, but most put the numbers of

All deaths that come about as a result of this conflict are tragic.

It seems the world wakes up only

And there can be no doubt that

Weasel words, the lot. I invite you to look the term up on wiki. Then try to stop doing it, moraliser-in-chief. You're a big enough laughing stock already.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 03:32 PM

You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas. Criticism of Israel does not amount to support of Hamas. I've criticised Hamas here many times, and you know I can't be doing with anything connected with religion of any kind. Stop being so neurotic, weasel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 06:19 PM

Source of 14 Aug 14 - 12:09 PM C&P, Bullshot?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Aug 14 - 07:47 PM

Experts have revealed that it was composed by an arch-weasel, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:47 AM

The source is CNN.
It is by AH Foxman.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/07/opinion/foxman-israel-hamas-gaza/

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 06:14 AM

"You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas"
You are wasting your time with this serial liar Steve - he has retreated into the cowards-hole of "all critics of Israel are Antisemitics and supporters of Hams" he's not even open to an offer of a donation if he provides evidence for such statements.
I really wouldn't bother - let him go on with his example of what these pro-Israel shower-of-shits look like.
These morons are indulging in self-harm on behalf of the Jewish people - a typical example is the 'Tricycle Theatre' fiasco in London.
The theatre is one of the most progressive in the country and I was disturbed to read that it had "banned the Jewish Film Festival' it was due to hold there, according to the Israli propaganda machine and its supporters.
It turns out that The Festival was receiving Israeli Government funding and, as the Theatre wished to make its feelings know over what was happening in Gaza, and to disassociate itself from anything Israeli at the present time.
The Management asked the Festival Organisers to refuse the Grant, in return, they offered to recompense in full the loss.
Result - the organisers refused and they pulled out - and the Tricycle became "Antisemitic" and has been reported so ever since.
When I heard of the "ban" I was extremely upset, and were several Jewish friends in London - had I still been a member I would have resigned.
These morons will continue to attempt to justify the slaughter that has taken place byblaming the victims and making criticicism of Israel of Israel a no-go area - an example of how they are attempting to do so in Israel:
Jim Carroll

THE IRISH TIMES Friday, August 15,2014
ISRAEL BANS RIGHTS GROUP FROM NATIONAL SERVICE PROGRAMME
Israel has disqualified its fore¬most human rights group as a volunteer option for youths who choose civilian national service over military conscription, officials said yesterday, citing the group's criticism of the Gaza offensive.
The government move against B'Tselem, while unlikely to affect the group's operations, reflected growing anger within Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu's rightist coalition at Israeli activism it sees as stoking pro-Palestinian sympathy.
Hoping to close ranks with minority Arab citizens and ultra-Orthodox Jews exempted from the draft for ideological reasons, and to accommodate pacifists, Israel has been sponsoring alternative service in public bodies in areas such as education and health.
Civilian national service volunteers have their living expenses covered by the state and later become eligible for benefits akin to those extended to discharged soldiers.
No more staff
The government's Authority for National-Civic Service said it would stop providing staff for B'Tselem after the group argued that some military strikes in Gaza, where 1,945 Palestinians, mostly civilians, have died in a month-old war, were illegal. B'Tselem currently has one national service volunteer, authority director Bar-Shalom Jerbi told Israel's Channel 2 TV.
"The volunteers represent one camp, in that they want to contribute to the country, to society and to their community," Mr Jerbi said. "B'Tselem crossed the line in wartime [by] campaigning and inciting against the state of Israel and the Israel Defence Force, which is the most moral of armies."
B'Tselem director Haggai Elad, responding in the broadcast, described the ban as politically motivated and undemocratic. "We act out of a deep commitment to the values of the society we are part of," Mr Elad said, calling on Uri Orbach, the government minister in charge of the Authority for National-Civic Service, to overturn the decision.
Mr Orbach, a member of the ultranationalist Jewish Home party in Mr Netanyahu's government, was unmoved.
"Israel is in the midst of a difficult military and diplomatic campaign against terrorists," he said, referring to Hamas-led Gaza militants who have killed 64 Israeli soldiers and three civilians inside the Jewish state.
"An organisation that works to prove allegations that Israel is committing war crimes should be so good as to do so with its own resources and not with civilian national service volunteers and state funds."
Trim funding
Rightist lawmakers have been advancing legislation to trim foreign funding for advocacy groups they view as encouraging international censure of Israeli policies toward Palestinians. Left-wing lawmakers fear an attempt to stifle dissent.
An investigation by the UN Human Rights Council into possible war crimes committed by either side has been dismissed as a "kangaroo court" by Israel.
During the fighting, Israel's state broadcaster rejected a B'Tselem request to air names of killed Palestinian children. The group appealed to the high court of justice, which upheld the broadcaster's decision.
Meanwhile, a new, five-day truce between Israel and Ha¬mas appeared to be holding yesterday despite a shaky start, after both sides agreed to give Egyptian-brokered peace negotiations in Cairo more time to try to end the war. - (Reuters)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:20 AM

Greggie,

Since YOU cannot be bothered to ever provide FACTS or SOURCES, I see no reason to provide mine- YOU can go find them, or even ( GASP) look for FACTS to argue that the facts provided are wrong or misused.


But you obviously would rather make personal attacks and insults than actually support your opinions with facts.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:31 AM

Steve,

As long as you keep repeating that 500 children have been killed by Israel in Gaza, you are supporting Hamas propaganda.

I have provided more than enough information about HAMAS killing kids, and the number of HAMAS anti-personnel warheads hitting GAZA to show that:

IF there were 500 children killed in Gaza, (ONLY NUMBERS COME FROM HAMAS) HAMAS has killed the majority.
HAMAS has admitted that they killed 160 children digging tunnels TO ATTACK ISRAEL- YET YOU SAY NOTHING.

YOU ARE supporting the killing of children BY HAMAS with your attacks blaming Israel for those deaths.
You are demonstrating Anti-Semitism (BY THE EU DEFINITION) by singling out Israel for criticism while ignoring GREATER evil by other parties in the conflict. To hold Israel at fault for legally defending itself WHILE IGNORING the admitted WAR CRIMES of HAMAS qualifies you.



""The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."
"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:33 AM

Steve,

Greg had nothing to do with it.


"an arch-weasel, Greg."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:22 AM

"You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas"

Nor any supporting Israel.
Fair and even handed, but you will not find a single post on this forum in which you criticise Hamas.

OTH, you post pages of criticism of Israel and constantly dismiss reasonable criticism of Hamas' brutalities and atrocities and war crimes.

That is biased, one-sided prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

Sorry.

"You will not find a single post on this forum in which I support Hamas"

Nor any supporting Israel.
Fair and even handed, but you will not find a single post on this forum in which you criticise Hamas.

OTH, you post pages of criticism of Israel and constantly dismiss reasonable criticism of Hamas' brutalities and atrocities and war crimes.

That is biased, one-sided prejudice.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:28 AM

I have criticised Hamas many times on this forum. I have no time for Hamas nor for anyone else who invokes religion to support their cause and I'm sick of saying it. You are applying to me the same lack of principle you apply to all your nonsense here: soak up what suits your prejudices and burble on about it, ignore anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

Come to think of it, you'll find (well you won't, cos you won't want to look) plenty of posts in which I have expressed sympathy for ordinary Israelis and regretted that, due to the actions of their short-sighted leaders, they can't live in peace and security, and have stated the hope that one fine day they will see through them and throw them out. I have no time for Hamas nor for the Israeli regime. I have all the sympathy in the world for people on both sides who are forced by inept leaders to live in fear and insecurity, and, in the case of many Palestinians, also under siege and in poverty. That's where I am and all this may be gleaned from my posting track record here. You're a fine one to accuse anyone else of not being even-handed, aren't you?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:22 AM

I hope I am.
Saying you are sorry for all the poor people is just weasel words Steve.
We all feel that and it should go without saying.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 10:34 AM

""Moreover," she said, "the journalists who entered Gaza were fixated on the notion of peace and on the Israeli narrative." She asserted that the foreign press was focused "on filming the places from where missiles were launched. Thus, they were collaborating with the occupation." (The Israeli army said last week that 600 of the 3,300 rockets fired into Israel over recent weeks were launched from residential areas, including schools, mosques and homes.)

"These journalists were deported from the Gaza Strip," al-Mudallal said. "The security agencies would go and have a chat with these people. They would give them some time to change their message, one way or another.

"We suffered from this problem very much," she added. "Some of the journalists who entered the Gaza Strip were under security surveillance. Even under these difficult circumstances, we managed to reach them, and tell them that what they were doing was anything but professional journalism and that it was immoral."

On Monday, the Foreign Press Association, an umbrella group representing foreign journalists working in Israel and the Palestinian Authority, issued a strongly worded condemnation of Hamas's intimidation tactics and its interference with their reporting in Gaza."




So, since Steve wants me to tell him what to think, I suggest that he look at the information that he has based his opinions on, and a evaluate how much of what he is repeating as FACT is bias from an information vacuum.


It is pointless to ask the three stooges to even think.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:31 AM

"As long as you keep repeating that 500 children have been killed by Israel in Gaza, you are supporting Hamas propaganda."
UNICEF claimed that up to August 4th, 408 Palestinian children were reported to have been killed, 31 percent of all civilian casualties. More than 70 percent of the 251 boys and 157 girls killed were 12 or younger.
An estimated 307,000 Palestinian children had been traumatised by the war.
The actual figures are unknown - you (and Israel) are trying to massage them down by claiming that some are not children.
"I have provided more than enough information about HAMAS killing kids"
You have brought up those who were supposed to have been killed while building tunnels, while at the same time ignoring the number of kids who have been killed by Israel in various incursions, or those who have died or had their health permanently destroyed due to the prevailing conditions brought about by the walls or the blockade.
You are actually using the deaths of children as a propaganda exercise.
As long as you and yours keep claiming "antisemitism you are quoting Israeli propaganda.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:53 AM

251 boys and 157 girls .

How do you explain that discrepancy?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 11:56 AM

Jimmy boy,

"You are actually using the deaths of children as a propaganda exercise."

Yes, you are.


408 killed- If that is valid (ONLY source is Hamas) then HOW MANY were killed by anti-personnel warheads on Hamas rockets?

I gave you numbers before-

650- 1000 rockets HIT GAZA after being launched by Hamas.

EACH ONE will kill between 0 and 25 or so. GAZA HAS NO SHELTERS because of HAMAS using that material to make attack tunnels to threaten Israeli civilians. So it would be reasonable to use the higher end.

So IF 408 children were killed, and children are what percentage of the population- over the 31% killed, certainly- that means if ALL the HAMAS rockets are considered, EACH ONE would only have to kill 1.3 to 2 Gazans to give that number of dead kids .


1320 total dead civilians from Hamas rockets- Gee, that is about what civilians YOU claim Israel has killed TOTAL.



I am sure the actual number killed is less than that- SOME civilians ARE being used as human shields by Hamas, and at least 600 of the rockets were launched from schools, apartments, mosques and hospitals - so Israeli COUNTER-FIRE may have killed SOME civilians.


But to state that Israel has killed those 408 children, when the numbers indicate that Israel is FAR less efficient at killing Palestinian civilians than Hamas is, is plain bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:05 PM

Of course, that does not count the OTHER children being killed by Hamas…

"August 13th, 2014
10:50pm A child was killed and two other children were injured from a 9:57pm rocket launch from Gaza, according to a Reuters report.

The rocket landed in the Sinai.

The rocket hit their home in the town of el-Mattallah south of Rafah.

The murdered child was identified as Sara Salama, 13, and the injured children wwas her brother Khaled, 8, and her sister Rahaf, 2.

It is not clear if the rocket was a misfire, or a deliberate message to Egypt."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:12 PM

"A television reporter from Finland's Helsingin Sanomat, the "Helsinki Dispatch," spent the night reporting from Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital, where she saw Hamas militants launching a rocket from the hospital's parking lot, confirming a war crime that few journalists have dared report.

Using hospitals, schools and mosques to store weapons or as a military base is against international rules of war. The Al Shifa Hospital, in particular, has been an area of focus after journalists reported that Hamas was using the hospital as a headquarters, but many of their reports were withdrawn, deleted on social media or actually taken off their newspaper websites because of fears for their safety and retribution from Hamas for reporting the truth.

The Helsingin Sanomat report was titled, 'HS spent the night at a hospital in Gaza.'

Their reporter, whose name is not shown in the segment uploaded to YouTube on Friday, is reporting from outside of the hospital, where she said, "Right in the back parking lot of Al Shifa Hospital, a rocket was launched, two o'clock in the morning."

"Really, it happened right in the area, the sound of it was really loud," she said. "It's true that rockets are launched here from the Gazan side into Israel."

Watch the Helsingin Sanomat report from the parking lot of Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital.
"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

Brucie the Beligerant
"Yes, you are'.
Those are the only figures available at present and those are the ones UNICEF reported.
The only thing we are getting from you and your Israeli propaganda machine if that the Children aren't really children - that's how squalid it gets.
Repeating UNICEF figure (gathered from all sources, including those of their own observers), is in no way supporting Hamas, which is what you are attempting to do as you did before with your "conference with terrorists" bullshit, and you ******* well know it.
In the end, the final dead count will be made using all information available - the reliability of Israel's figures can be judged by the fact that they've just sacked their own Human Rights group, Bar Tselem sor not coming up with suitable information.
"HOW MANY were killed by anti-personnel warheads on Hamas rockets?"
Do you have any evidence this is the case - spo far I have only read that the Israelis are only claiming that the rockets (20 deaths in twelve years) are all Isreali
You appear to be acting as an unpaid propagandist for the Israeli regime before they have made such claims themselves - not that their word could carry much weight if they did, given their track record.
A bit of advice.
Your opinions might be just thal little bit more credible if they were delivered in a reasonable way, without the unpleasantly blustering, arrogance that they invariably come wrapped in - always a sig of insecurity.
And wile I'm in the advising mood:
"Jimmy boy,"
I'm rather fond of the name "Jimmy" (Ewan's mother used to call me "Jimmy Boy" all the time) so it doesn't particularly faze me, but I really wouldn't like people to think we're friends, so stop trying to ingratiate yourself with me - that doesn't work either - I still think you are a cretinous little gobshite.
Perhaps if you tried a little imagination - I'd be happy to suggest an alternative - don't suppose you'll take me up on that!!.
I offered to help Terry the Terminator in the same way, but he turned me down and stuck with a name I that takes be back to the time I was in infants school - which I suggested in the first place.
Kids - who'd have 'em?   
"How do you explain that discrepancy?"
What discrepancy - are you suggesting that these children are all Hamas terrorists, armed with lethal water-pistols, no doubt - wouldn't put it past you?
It seems to be the level you think - you really are an unsavoury little slug
"We all feel that and it should go without saying."
Yeah - just like the victims of that scourge of the extremists, "President Assad" in Homs - time to recommend the riot control equipment and sniper rifles, docha think?
Jim Carroll
A further example of Israel's reliability - along with that of her buddies in Washington
CONTROVERSY SURE TO FOLLOW IN GAZA STRIFE
The UN investigation into alleged violation of international law may lead to charges
The UN Human Rights Council has announced the appointment of the members of the Commission of Inquiry to investigate purported viola¬tions of international law in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, particularly in the Gaza strip.
Ireland abstained from voting on the resolution setting up the commission. This was regrettable as the operative paragraphs made clear that its mandate is fair and impartial.
The resolution condemned all violence against civilians wherever it occurs, including as a result of rocket fire and established an independent commission to conduct the investigation.
The commission's mandate is ambitious and many findings are certain to be controversial. Navigating the political sensitivities of the Israeli-Pales¬tinian conflict is not part of its remit but already there are efforts to discredit members of the commission. The most important function is to establish the facts and circum¬stances of violations and crimes perpetrated and to identify those responsible. It is not a court of law but the mandate does not just enable but requires that all parties, Israeli and Palestinian, are subject to investigation.
Command and control
In seeking to identify those responsible, the commission will be interested in individu¬als who exercised command and control functions during the conflict.
While the majority of these will be military personnel from the Israeli Defence Forces and the military wing of Hamas, it may also include civilians. These may include the political leaders on both sides.
A practical challenge to the inquiry will be finding evi¬dence that links senior mem¬bers of the Israeli administra¬tion and the Hamas organisa¬tion with specific crimes or actions deemed to be dispro¬portionate or indiscriminate. A,nr>frhf>r imnnrtant function of
accountability measures.
This is part of a broader strategy to end impunity.
Palestinian and internation¬al human rights organisations have for some time advocated for the use of international law mechanisms to examine the situation in Palestine, especial¬ly in relation to the Israeli settlements, exploitation of natural resources and ongoing violations of human rights.
The US has opposed such a strategy and any Palestinian recourse to the International Criminal Court and has threatened to withdraw funding to the Palestinian Authority should it proceed.
Impartial inquiry
The Human Rights Council has already established commissions of inquiry in respect of Syria, Sri Lanka and Korea.
None of these are receiving the co-operation of the relevant government and it is most unlikely this inquiry will be well received in Israel. But it is still possible to conduct an effective and impartial inquiry according to international standards.
Reputable international, Palestinian and Israeli human rights organisations have been investigating and document¬ing violations in Palestine for manyyears.
There is the testimony of victims, relatives, UN and other international staff, media and those who partici¬pated. There is also the sheer scale of the physical and forensic evidence. In this ' regard the commission will be assisted by a team of experts.
Since the recognition of Palestine as a non-member observer state at the UN in 2012, Palestinian president Abbas has come under in¬creased pressure to make the necessary declaration recognis¬ing the jurisdiction of the court and accept the consequences. The evidence gathered by the UN commission of inquiry could play a significant part in this process.
If, as is most likely, the commission finds that war. crimes have been committed and names individuals impli¬cated, it will be impossible for the prosecutor at the Interna¬tional Criminal Court to ignore such evidence.
This may precipitate a formal investigation and possible indictment by the court.
Although such a process will take years, it would be the most significant step in ending the impunity that has charac¬terised the now regular outbreaks of hostilities in the region and the Israeli occupa¬tion of Palestinian territory since 1967.
Prof Ray Murphy of the Irish Centre for Human Rights, NUI Galway, was a visiting scholar with Al-Haq, a Palestinian

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:32 PM

"A television reporter from Finland's Helsingin Sanomat, the "Helsinki Dispatch," spent the night reporting from Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital, where she saw Hamas militants launching a rocket from the hospital's parking lot, confirming a war crime that few journalists have dared report."
Just as Israel was doing during the last two incursions and was filmed doing it.
They were also photographed using children to detect suspected planted bombs and sitting them on the bonnets of their vehicles.
Their use of occupied homes as headquarters and observation posts is long-accepted old news - the high-point was when one group shat in all the cooking utensils of the family that was housing them - you can't beat Israeli potty-training!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:36 PM

Jimmy boy,

"Do you have any evidence this is the case - spo far I have only read that the Israelis are only claiming that the rockets (20 deaths in twelve years) are all Isreali"

Just the reports from Gaza of misfired Hamsa rockets hitting that school, and several hospitals, and the IDF reports ( reputable, and verifiable from video and radar tracks) of the number of misfired rockets.

But since Hamas has (from recent reports) kept the reporters from telling the truth, I expect a lot more will be known AFTER the reporters get out of range of Hamas weapons

You have what, the word of the Hamas Public Health, or the word of the UN based on the report of Hamas Public health? That sure is a neutral source- even you should admit they have a bias and vested interest in presenting Israel in a bad light, regardless of the truth.

As for the name, as long as YOU address me as other than "beardedbruce" I can call you whatever I want. Too bad, but you bring it onto yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 03:51 PM

"Just as Israel was doing during the last two incursions and was filmed doing it.
"

You make a claim- post the link for that video, if it is not just a figment of your imagination.

Israelis launching rockets from a hospital parking lot while the hospital is in use. SHOW ME.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:05 PM

Jimmy,

"Your opinions might be just thal little bit more credible if they were delivered in a reasonable way, without the unpleasantly blustering, arrogance that they invariably come wrapped in - always a sig of insecurity."



Where is that mirror??? You really need to look in it.

And I am NOT Keith- in spite of your thinking that "they all look alike." I never said "How do you explain that discrepancy?"
OR "We all feel that and it should go without saying."

Or discussed sniper rifles.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:08 PM

Saying you are sorry for all the poor people is just weasel words Steve.

No it isn't, ignoramus. You need to apprise yourself of the meaning of "weasel words".

And I didn't say "I feel sorry for all the poor people", did I?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:17 PM

I have all the sympathy in the world for people on both sides who are forced by inept leaders to live in fear and insecurity, and, in the case of many Palestinians, also under siege and in poverty

We all feel the same on that Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:24 PM

You could have fooled me.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 04:29 PM

I believe ya, FKWT- thousands wouldn't.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:22 PM

"and, in the case of many Palestinians, also under siege and in poverty"

For which they Hamas to thank.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:28 PM

Oh, and Gaza is not and has never been under "siege", it has been under a legal blockade - big difference. The use of the word "siege" is for for the purpose of demonizing Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 05:51 PM

"OTH, you post pages of criticism of Israel and constantly dismiss reasonable criticism of Hamas' brutalities and atrocities and war crimes.

That is biased, one-sided prejudice."

And where pray, can we find YOUR even handed criticism of anything the Israelis do?.............NOWHERE!

That is biased, one-sided prejudice."

Sauce for the Goose, Sauce for the Gander?......Unless it's an Israeli Gander!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 06:08 PM

"You make a claim- post the link for that video, if it is not just a figment of your imagination.

Israelis launching rockets from a hospital parking lot while the hospital is in use. SHOW ME."

You constantly fail to give links BB.

You show YOURS, and you'll have the right to demand that Jim show HIS!

Ain't gonna happen though, IS IT?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 06:14 PM

"Oh, and Gaza is not and has never been under "siege", it has been under a legal blockade - big difference."

And speaking of WEASEL WORDS,...............I think the residents of Gaza (the majority who are NOT Hamas) would have a different impression of exactly what their situation is.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 06:25 PM

"WEASEL WORDS"

Can't handle the truth, eh!......doesn't fit in with your agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:00 PM

'I think the residents of Gaza (the majority who are NOT Hamas) would have a different impression of exactly what their situation is.'

Their "situation" is that Gaza is under a legal blockade because the people governing them, who illegally seized power via a violent coup, bring into Gaza offensive weaponry which it uses to terrorize its neighbour. No other country on earth would tolerate such a "situation" but you and your kind can't stand the fact that Israel is able to defend itself from such terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 07:55 PM

Your conceptions of legal and illegal are nothing if not extremely amusing, minnow.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:18 PM

a legal blockade

Uh-Huh. It is to laugh.

If history is written by the victors, "legal" is determined by the oppressors.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 08:40 PM

The relations between Israel and Hamas are in the nature of armed conflict. Nowadays no formal declaration of war is needed. Hence the rules of the laws of armed conflict apply. This means that Israel may control shipping headed for Gaza – even when the vessels are still on the high seas.

    The rules of naval warfare have not been fully codified in a treaty and are in the nature of binding customary rules. They can be found in the relevant manuals of Western armies (in particular the U.S. and Britain) and in the San Remo Manual prepared by a group of experts.

    In order to be legal, a blockade has to be declared and announced, effective, non-discriminatory, and has to permit the passage of humanitarian assistance to the civilian population. In addition, the San Remo Manual of 1994 includes two conditions: first, the state which applies the blockade may decide where and when and through which port the assistance should reach the coast. In addition, the state may require that a neutral organization on the coast should verify who is the recipient of the assistance. In Gaza, for instance, does it reach the civilians or Hamas?

    A ship that clearly intends to breach the blockade may be stopped already when it is still on the high seas. Stopping the flotilla heading for Gaza in international waters 100 kilometers from Israel was not illegal; in time of armed conflict, ships intending to breach the blockade may be searched even on the high seas.

    Israel is within its rights and is in full compliance with international law because it has fulfilled all of the above-mentioned conditions for a lawful blockade. E.g., in January 2009 Israel notified the relevant authorities of its intention to establish a blockade of the Gaza coast.

- See more at: http://jcpa.org/article/the-legal-basis-of-israel%E2%80%99s-naval-blockade-of-gaza/#sthash.yIUtxj51.dpuf

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Aug 14 - 09:48 PM

The maritime blockade is legal under international law. In 2011, a special panel convened by UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon examined the maritime blockade. The UN Panel found both the naval blockade and its enforcement, including in international waters, to be legal. This panel of experts emphasized that all assistance to Gaza should be transferred only through the designated land crossings.

The Myth of an Israeli Siege on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 02:46 AM

The shooting war seems to have subsided and the Israelis and their suckers-up now seem to be getting down to the task of explaining the Gaza Massacre and a picture is emerging of how they are intending to proceed.
The murdered children are being presented as Hamas in disguise, the destroyed homes, hospitals and schools as Hamas outposts and overall, the Israelis are set fair to paint the perpetrators of the massacre as the real victims.
By removing Bar Tselem from the scene, they are in process of 'jury selecting' so they can claim, along with their apologists, that any criticism ios their behaviour is "Antisemitic".
The above analysis of how they intend to handle any enquiry into the Massacre - see (CONTROVERSY SURE TO FOLLOW OVER GAZA STRIFE above) - they want a hand-picked jury who will decide that the killing of 2000 people by a well trained and well equipped army, and the turning of Gaza into the building site they have always wished it to be, (once the former residents have vacated it of course), was OK by them.
And the U.S. is ready in the wings, U.N. veto in hand, t ascertain that things ton't get out of hand (if they are unable to stop an enquiry taking place).
All set fair for another cover-up.
And we have little Booboo on hand here to show us that the near decade blockade of Gaza which has been the cause of the deaths, life-lasting illnesses, hardship and poverty that have filled our screens night-after-night, throughout its existence, and which, if left in place, will make impossible the putting right of the damage and destruction that has been a feature of daily life for the Gazans - DOES NOT REALLY EXIST.      
Jimmy Boy Carroll (getting quite attached to that - pity I didn't think of it when joined this club)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 03:01 AM

Left this as a seperate item - the team seems to have difficulty handling too much in the one posting.
I wonder if anybody watched the half-hour news item on the shooting of fleeing civilians by Israeli troops.
CIVILIAN TARGETS
It reported occurrences of groups of Israeli soldiers setting up observation points and killing the residents of the destroyed homes as they scrambled over the rubble looking for their dead and their belongings.
The report was based on the findings of a group of American reporters who interviewed local residents and the bereaved of some of the victims.
Their accounts were backed up by photographic evidence and by a statement that a number of Israeli soldiers have testified to the fact that these events had taken place.
Israel says it will "give the matter serious consideration" - which probably means that the reports will go the same way Bar Tselem has gone.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 05:04 AM

You misrepresent the debate and the contributors.
We all understand that a humanitarian tragedy has occurred, with unbearable suffering, violence and death.
We only differ in our views of why it happened.

Some of us also wonder why there is so much less outrage for the vastly worse humanitarian tragedy across Israel's other border, that has been going on for years not weeks and worsens daily.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 06:54 AM

"Some of us also wonder why there is so much less outrage for the vastly worse humanitarian tragedy across Israel's other border"
Some of us wonder why you spend a great deal of your time defending ans supporting atrocities
Nobody other than you misinterpreting anything.
You obviously have no intention commenting on the fact that Israeli soldiers have been observed executing survivors and are happy to to ignore, excuse or deny such barbaric war crimes.
Pointing to "worse" events as a diversion from a wealth, nuclear-facilitated power is in the process of driving out an entire people by slaughtering them and making their homes unlivable only underlines your ongoing support for that regime.
In order to do so, they are cynically manipulating the facts and suppressing open discussion on it - you have elected to make yourself part of that propaganda drive.
There is no less outrage at what is happening elsewhere - we have all condemned religion-based persecution - only you has in any way supported it.
You are a squalid, atrocity-denying moron
WHAT YOU ARE DEFENDING
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:28 AM

Some of us wonder why you spend a great deal of your time defending ans supporting atrocities

But, of course, I do not.
Neither does anyone else here.

Nor do I defend soldiers acting illegally, as individuals inevitably do in conflict.
They should be held to account and I deplore it.

Again you misrepresent other contributors rather than debate.
I believe that is because your case is weak, but please prove me wrong with argument instead of insult.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:43 AM

"Again you misrepresent other contributors rather than debate."
You have been given debate - you choose to deny it and offer denial and massacre apologism in return.
Where is your response to anything that has been put up
The arrest of the whitleblower who reported the Israeli death squads, the removal of Bar Tselem, the U.S, interference in the holding of an enquiry... and the dozens of other points of debate you have refused to respond to and are claiming do not exist.
You put up pictures of Israeli soldiers and grieving parents put out on a blog by Israeli propagandists, but totally ignore ones of destroyed homes, hospitals, Palestinian wounded and dead....
You explain away a four week massacre, which is at best the wiping out of "hostages" as 'defending Israel' and are now downgrading the victims to fighters in disguise.
You and your squalid little bunch claim opposition to be terrorism - you are now an established part of the Israeli propaganda machine on this forum
If you are opposed to soldiers deliberately shooting civilians, explain why Israel have arrested the soldier who testified to the atrocity, and condemn the removal of Israel's own Huan Rights group, Bar Tselem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

You put up pictures of Israeli soldiers and grieving parents put out on a blog by Israeli propagandists,
No.
It was a jihadist site, and it was posted because Steve denied that Hamas even had an army.

Again you misrepresent and insult instead of debate.

Make a point and I will answer it.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 05:46 AM

Jim is absolutely correct. The attack on Gaza was a war crime in all its aspects.

The slaughter of around 2000 people..at least 400 children...hundreds of women some of whom were pregnant and the wounding of around 9000 others is a war crime.

The horrific wounds were caused by blast injuries, shrapnel, crush wounds and fire.

The IDF stands revealed as an army of highly trained child killers cheered on by rabid crowds of right wing young Zionists!

Hospitals, clinics, UN Schools and whole apartment blocks and neighbourhoods in Gaza were blown up.

A city of nearly 2 million now has no water and no sewage plants ...around half a million people are homeless.The power station was blown up by Israeli bombs.

Farms and orchards on the edge of Gaza have been destroyed by shelling, tanks and bulldozers.Unexploded bombs and shells litter the ruined city.Gaza's main bomb disposal expert was killed just a few days by one such shell.

But it is important to remember that Gaza itself is a refugee city. Its residents were refugees from what is now Israel driven out at the point of a gun.Or they are the children or grandchildren of the original refugees. The city which we have seen destroyed was built on top of sand dunes by these people.

The Palestinians have a right to resist the occupation of their homeland and the murder of its people.

On the occupied West Bank huge numbers of Palestinian men have been imprisoned at one time or another by the occupying state. Thousands of homes have been bulldozered and land stolen.

Although many politicians in the West continue to support Israel this murderous terrorist state has been rumbled as the huge pro Palestinian demonstrations across the world has shown.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 06:54 AM

Nicely summed up Ivor.
"It was a jihadist site, and it was posted because Steve denied that Hamas even had an army."
There is no "army" in the sense Israel has one.
Hamas is a rag-tag group of irregulars opposing a nuclear facilitated bunch well trained, well armed thugs who have topped their massacre by killing survivors.
The Israeli government if so concerned about this that they have arrested a whistleblower who has given evidence of it happening!!!
You have chosen to depict the grieving families of these and have not uttered a word of condemnation on the slaughterer that has taken place - on the contrary, you have defended the killing of civilians by claiming they are legitimate targets because they are being "used by Hamas" (the slaughter of hostages you were so offended by when I said you supported it).
You have defended the use of flechettes, and completely ignored the use of DIME missiles and white phosphorus.
You have defended the destruction of hospitals and schools - though in fairness, you have yet to say whether any of this has been random bombardment or targeted
You are now quibbling about the ages of the dead.
Yoou and your mates are a bunch of inhuman moral messes who are happy to defend an atrocity.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 08:20 AM

More misrepresentation.
I did not choose to represent any grieving families.
I was showing Steve pictures of the Al Qassam Brigades because he did not believe that Hamas had an army, and he suggested the pictures on the Israel site were photoshopped.

No hospital has reported any flechette injuries, or from dimes or phosphorus.
Your "evidence" was hardly convincing.
It is a lie that I "have defended the use of flechettes."

Ivor, Hamas is guilty of war crimes against Israeli and gazan civilians, but it has yet to be shown that Israel has committed war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 08:40 AM

"Ivor, Hamas is guilty of war crimes against Israeli and gazan civilians, but it has yet to be shown that Israel has committed war crimes."

To people like Ivor and the other stooges just the act of Israel defending itself is a war crime. Some people can't stand to see Jews fighting back, they should just politely accept being rocketed, bombed and mortared and not raise a fuss........this way to the gas chambers ladies and gentlemen.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 08:45 AM

"No hospital has reported any flechette injuries, or from dimes or phosphorus."
Are we now back to claiming that flechettes were not used?
Are you out of your mind?
There have been no attempts to assess the damage or the injuries incurred over the last four weeks, let alone report on them.
Flechettes have been used before by the Israelis, they are a standard part of their armoury ,AND THEY ARE YET TO DENY THAT THEY HAVE USED THEM - YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO DENY THEIR USE PURELY OFF YOUR OWN BAT - THIS IS THE EXTENT OF YOUR PRO-ISRAELI SYCOPHANCY you are a fanatical head-banger.
"Your "evidence" was hardly convincing."
My evidence is as above - Israel uses flechettes and has never denied having used them, now or in the past .
Both DIME and phosphorus usage has also been reported by Medicins Sans Frontiers, who have shown a video showing their effects on its victims.
"It is a lie that I "have defended the use of flechettes."
You really are round the twist - what the fuck are you doing here? Israel has accepted their use by their refusal to either deny or respond to claims that they have, the report of their use includes photographs of the missiles, Israel is, at the present time, the only military group to have access to them, nobody else has questioned their use, in the past or now - you are denying it on their behalf.
Round the twist - take your pills!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 08:55 AM

The IDF and Bibi Netanyahu deserve a Nobel Peace Prize for their restraint during such a challenging war. Israel has indeed been disproportionate; it has been disproportionately decent.

Israel's disproportionate decency

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:33 AM

maybe Obama can give them his, since he isn't using it

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:03 AM

To people like Ivor and the other stooges just the act of Israel defending itself is a war crime.

Perhaps, minnow, you'd care to apprise us as to how killing almost five hundred kids in a month amounts to "defending oneself".


Oops, l almost forgot. Of course, it was Hamas wot killed all those kids. And women. And old people. And everyone else who's ever been killed since the year dot. I hear that the Romans blamed the Crucifixion on Hamas. They definitely murdered Abe Lincoln too. Faux News told me so.

Incidentally, you don't know what "stooge" means. Why don't you look things up instead of making an arse of yourself? Minnow, of course, is a type of small fish. It also means an insignificant person of extremely limited intellect.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:08 AM

If Israel has used flechette rounds, it has not been reported.
Your silly story by a Palestinian propaganda group that one person had been wounded by a flechette weeks ago is most unlikely to be true.

IDF has not even used phosphorus smoke rounds, never mind anti-personnel rounds.
I have seen no convincing reports of their use either.
That is not me denying anything Jim.
just saying that there is nothing to deny yet.

Instead of accusing me of this and that, make a point for me to answer.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:08 AM

stooge (plural stooges). One who knowingly allows himself or herself to be used for another's profit; a dupe.

Fits you perfectly......dupe.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:12 AM

Steve and Jim, is it your view that Israel has a right to defend itself, provided it does not hurt anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:33 AM

Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself. Next question...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 10:45 AM

And Yes, the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves.

Next question.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 11:24 AM

Neither can do that without hurting anyone.
Is that OK?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 11:57 AM

The history of Israel from its inception is a story of the mass murder of many Palestinians and the expulsion from their homeland of many others.

It is a story, a true story, of mass imprisonment, often without a semblence of a trial , expulsions, beatings, the occupation of large swathes of Palestinian land, the bulldozing of tens of thousands of Palestinian homes, the casual shooting with live rounds or rubber bullets of children and teenagers, the building of a giant aprtheid wall on Palestinian land, the building of illegal settlements on occupied territories by the Israeli state and gun toting Israeli fanatics and the destruction of Palestinian property whether it was the public records stored at the Orient House showing landownership from the time of the Ottoman Empire or the smashing of farms, orchards and water supplies.

The history also includes the Israeli attacks on Lebanon and the mass bombings and carnage to civilians that ensured.

The USA and the UK along with other Powers have aided and abetted Israel in its vicious oppression of the Palestinian people.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 02:03 PM

Not true.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM

No -- but, wow, what an imagination!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 03:58 PM

Neither can do that without hurting anyone.
Is that OK?

Well, you could try to manage it without killing five hundred kids in a month.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 04:21 PM

They do.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 06:57 PM

Ah, so you are of the "Hamas is automatically responsible for killing everyone who has ever been killed since Adam was a lad" school of thought, eh? Did Hamas kill JR, do you suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 14 - 09:45 PM

Apparently, duplication is necessary and appropriate:

==============

Mark Levine:Author; Professor, Middle Eastern History, UC Irvine & Center for MES, Lund University

A Dear Jon (Voight) Letter About Gaza and the History of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict
Posted: 08/15/2014 10:36 pm EDT Updated: 08/15/2014 10:59 pm EDT

Dear Jon Voight,

We write to you as admirers of your work for many years. We are also professors of modern Middle Eastern studies, specializing on the history and contemporary realities of Israel, Zionism and Palestine, and between the two of us, we have written and edited over half a dozen books on the country and the two peoples who are destined -- or doomed, depending on your point of view -- to share it.

We have read your open letter to Javier Bardem, Penelope Cruz and other critics of the latest Israeli bombing and invasion of Gaza, in response to their own open letter condemning Israeli actions during the war. Your passion for defending Israel is clearly as great as your passion for acting. However, behind your passion is a view of Israel's history and current actions that are utterly at odds with the actual history and present-day realities in the country. They are simply dead-wrong, and your belief in them has led you to adopt views that will ultimately -- and at this rate, sooner rather than later -- doom, not defend, Israel. Moreover, while you have laudably said that they or other actors should not face industry sanctions for standing up to Israel, we believe that the intensity of your criticism, coupled with the inaccuracy of the arguments, not only exacerbates the rewriting of the conflict's history in the mainstream media but contributes both to a toxic atmosphere of hatred against Palestinians and to a purported blacklist against them.

Let us begin with your opening argument:

They are obviously ignorant of the whole story of Israel's birth, when in 1948 the Jewish people were offered by the UN a portion of the land originally set aside for them in 1921, and the Arab Palestinians were offered the other half. The Arabs rejected the offer, and the Jews accepted, only to be attacked by five surrounding Arab countries committed to driving them into the sea. But the Israelis won. The Arabs tried it again in 1967, and again in 1973, launching a sneak attack on the holiest Jewish holiday. Each time the Jews prevailed but not without great loss of life. And when Israel was not fighting a major war, it was defending itself against terrorist campaigns.

This is the traditional narrative of Israel's birth, part of what Israeli hisitorian Simha Flapan described as the "myths" surrounding Israel in his famous 1987 book The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities. However, this is a distortion of the actual history, which saw Zionism arrive on the soil of a Palestine that was already in the midst of its own modernization, against which what Israeli sociologist Gershon Shafir describes as a "militant [Zionist] nationalist movement" developed, deploying the "conquest of labor" and then the "conquest of land" to increasingly powerful effect once the British conquered Palestine in 1917.

After three decades of British rule that was legally committed -- through the Balfour Declaration and the Palestine Mandate -- to facilitate the creation of a Jewish "national home" at the expense of fostering Palestinian Arab nationalism, outright civil war became inevitable. When war finally came, the Zionist leadership "accepted" the terms of the 1947 Partition Plan. In reality, they had little intention of actually fulfilling them, and over the next year, through intercommunal conflict and then all-out war, three quarters of a million Palestinians were permanently forced from their homes, and over 500 villages were destroyed.

As for your claims that Israel was attacked by surrounding countries determined to throw it into the sea, this too is belied by the historical record. As Oxford University professors Avi Shlaim and Eugene Rogan demonstrated in their book The War for Palestine, Rewriting the History of 1948, minimal and badly trained and equipped forces were sent; their main goals were to prevent themselves from looking like collaborators and their rival Mufti of Jerusalem from establishing a state, and, where possible, to take whatever territory they could for themselves. Most important here, Jordan -- the one neighbor with an effective, British-run army -- had reached a modus vivendi with the Zionist/Israeli leadership in which it would take over the West Bank and leave Israel the rest of the country. The only exception was Jerusalem, about which the two sides couldn't agree and which therefore became the scene of the worst fighting of the war.

Let's leave aside the fact that you don't mention the 1956 tripartite invasion of Egypt by Israel, France and the UK, which not even Israelis argue was a defensive war. Similar to your description of 1948, your description of 1967 as the "Arab trying again" to destroy Israel is historically inaccurate. There were certainly many threats emanating from Arab capitals in the late spring of 1967, but ultimately it was Israel, not the Arab states, that clearly launched a "sneak attack." The CIA even predicted that Israel could wipe out the combined forces of the surrounding states in roughly five days, which is exactly what happened.

While presented to the world as a war of survival, 1967 was in fact a war of conquest and expansion. How do we know this? Quite simply because that's just what Israel did: It conquered and occupied the West Bank, Gaza, Sinai and the Golan Heights and proceeded to settle them intensively, particularly in the biblical heartland of the West Bank.

Here, Mr. Voight, it is absolutely crucial to understand that if Israel were really afraid to turn over the West Bank to Palestinians for security reasons -- that is, if the occupation were in fact about security -- it could have maintained a military occupation to this day without violating international law. But instead it began a settlement enterprise that came to dominate Israeli political life, eventually placing well over half a million settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, in clear contravention of international law, which expressly forbids transferring civilians from one country into an occupied territory.



Continued Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:04 AM

The role of the USA has been crucial to the murderous assaults on the Palestinian people by the armed might of Israel.

The USA armed and funded and supported Israel at almost every turn.

The Israeli warplanes that fired rockets and dropped bombs on Gaza were made in the USA and flown by Israeli pilots.

The USA had to admit just a few weeks ago that it was resupplying the Israeli Defence Force [ ie, the child killing army ] with stocks of weaponry which the USA has conveniently stored in Israel.

Israel receives billions of dollars of aid every year from the USA...money spent on military equipment, economic development and the oppression of the Palestinian people who are still being robbed of their land and in the case of Gaza literally blown up in their city.

The arrogance and efficiency of the Israelis ,however, has also led to some enormous problems.

Its high tec child killing armed forces encountered big problems during its onslaught of Gaza with 64 soldiers killed and hundreds wounded by the Palestinian resistance who do not possess a navy, warplanes , artillery, tanks or heavy weaponry of any kind.

More strategically the action of right wing Israeli governments for the past few decades have made a two state solution to the crisis impossible.

Israel has allowed 400000 armed fanatical settlers to seize land and build complexes in the occupied West Bank [ where there were none pre 1967].

Its Palestinian population has been terrorised, imprisoned, attacked, shot at, tortured in many cases,had property seized or destroyed and pauperised.

The Apartheid Wall now cuts off many villages and towns from their neighbours. Roads for settlers and Israeli military only now criss cross the occupied territory while the Palestinians suffer the daily ritual of roadblocks which add hours to their journey to work, school or hospital visits etc.

Palestinian universities and colleges and schools are routinely attacked or closed down which in themselves justifies the academic boycott which is gathering pace across the world.

The two state solution seems dead in the water.

If that is the case the Palestinians in Gaza, Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank can expect more rampant violence from the Israeli state as it , in the words of an Israeli leader ' mows the grass' in Gaza every few years.

Gaza is facing a huge human health catastrophe this coming winter as the combination of shortage of food and clean water , raw sewage everywhere , lack of housing, no power and a polluted cityscape kicks in....where are the 10000 severely wounded going to go and how are they to be treated and care for?

The whole world is still watching and Israel despite its powerful backers and big guns stands revealed as a terrorist state.
Fredom for Palestine!
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:39 AM

Steve, I do not understand your reply.
Israel can not attack the tunnels and missiles without hurting anyone.
Given that, have they the right to defend themselves?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 03:56 AM

It IS my opinion that Hamas is to blame for the violence in Gaza, but we were discussing a nation's right to reply to attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:11 AM

"Steve and Jim, is it your view that Israel has a right to defend itself, provided it does not hurt anyone?"
Israel has every right to defnd herself and is extremely well equipped to do so.
The Palestinians have the same right and are not so equipped.
Israel's behavior is recognised as going far beyond "defence" - it is no more than a revenge attack for the death of four boys - the ratio of that revenge is 50 Palestinians to one murdered Israeli boy - not bad, considering those who carried out those murders have never been uncovered.
You appear to be now suggesting that the 2000 deaths were in order to close the tunnels - not even Israel has claimed this - once again, your enthusiasm has taken you in front of them in claiming something they have not.
They claimed the attacks to be in order to stop the rocket attacks which have killed less than 20 Israelis in 12 years - my maths is lousy, but I make that 100 dead Palestinians for every rocket victim.
You are obviously not going to respond to the fact that Israel would have denied the use of flechettes if they thought they could get away with such a claim - they haven't and they used them, just as they have used them, along with DIME and white phosphorus (which you have also supported) in previous attacks on Gaza, despite having renounced their us.
The fact that you have run out of everything other than straightforward denial always becomes obvious when you start referring to facts as "silly" is a recurring trait of yours.
You obviously intend to make this one of your fillibusts - back to your old "I'm the king of the castle" attention seeking.
In doing so, you are ignoring every single point being made.
Isn't it time you got yourself a life of your own away from the keyboard?
If you find yourself unable to do this, try reading what others have offered and responding to it with some intelligence and, more importantly, a little humanity - you are doing the Jewish people (who you have sown you have no regard for), nor the Christians you claim to share beliefs with, any good in presenting yourself as one of them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:55 AM

You appear to be now suggesting
No. Not suggesting anything.
Why not just reply to what I actually say, i.e. Israel can not reply to the attacks without hurting anyone, so is it acceptable?

You are obviously not going to respond to the fact that Israel would have denied the use of flechettes if they thought they could get away with such a claim - they haven't and they used them,

So your evidence is just that Israel does not bother denying every single accusation Palestinians routinely make.
Perhaps they have used them, but there is absolutely no evidence for it.

white phosphorus (which you have also supported)
Blatant, deliberate LIE Jim.

Why can you never just discuss the issues instead of always accusing me of stuff (quotes never supplied).

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 08:11 AM

Of course the child killing IDF has used flechettes [or metal darts ] against the population of Gaza.

The Guardian newspaper on the 20th July reported the IDF using flechettes quoting reliable sources.

But this horrific weapon which is basically a shell which explodes thousands of metal darts on impact is only one of a huge array of weapons used against the men , women and children of Gaza.....artillery and naval shells, missiles, tank shells, flechettes, sniper fire, warplanes and so on.

The destruction of Gaza happened on our television screens for all to see. We also saw the Zionist crowds on the hill overlooking Gaza cheering wildly and even attacking reporters while back in Tel Aviv the crowds of Zionist thugs were whooping with joy at the news of Palestinian children being killed.

Zonist rightwingers also attacked young anti war activists and today it was reported that a young Jewish bride and her muslim husband had their wedding attacked by a crowd of 200 Zionists angered at the this young couple's wedding day celebrations.

Zionism has taken Israel into a dead end. Its leaders[ war criminals all ] can only promise more blood and death.

But still the Palestinian people resist.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 09:25 AM

The Guardian newspaper on the 20th July reported the IDF using flechettes quoting reliable sources.

No.
They quoted a Palestinian propaganda group, and no further claim or evidence has emerged all these weeks later.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 10:57 AM

Why would the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights lie about the use of the deadly flechette weapons? They didn't need to make the killing method up with all those other death dealing weapons being used.

Every day last month children were being butchered and mutilated by the pride of the Israeli Defence Forces. They were being killed by the hundred . Tens of thousands have been traumatised.

Well wouldn't we all if we saw our home destroyed and our loved ones crushed. And they did it with with high tec weapons like drone missiles and low tech weapons like artillery shells and tank fire.

It wasn't just the children and their mothere who were slain though , it was doctors, ambulance paramedics and other health workers. Even the hospitals were smashed by missiles and bombs.


How did those doctors and health workers not breakdown and go mad under the strain of dealing with the hundreds of dead and dying children and thousands of other wounded , the vast majority of whom by the way had no links with the resistance fighters?

I saw one old lady running hundreds of yards shielding a wounded civilian as he was dragged along the road under fire from Israeli snipers and then there was that young man in the green T shirt shot dead by another sniper while searching the rubble for a missing relative accompanied by very brave and very scared International Observers.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

Why would the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights lie about the use of the deadly flechette weapons?

To demonize Israel obviously.
That is their job.
Weeks later, no-one else has seen any sign of such weapons despite camera crews in every hospital.
You are sooooo naive Ivor.

I agree about the horror and the suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

Naive! Boy, that Ivor, he really is something else, innit... Can he be for real, d'you reckon?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 04:18 PM

According to William Schabes a Canadian International lawyer Benjamin Netanyahu has posed 'the greatest threat to Israel's survivalbecause of the war crimes that have been committed in Gaza by Israel.
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have been denied entry into Gaza by Israel which is working overdrive to rewrite the horrors of the past weeks..
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:05 PM

So Keith, the Israeli regime is so solicitous as to the wellbeing of the poor people of Gaza. They are so humanitarian, aren't they? Which is why they used white phosophorus in Gaza last time round as well as US-supplied cluster bombs in Lebanon, which are still blowing kiddies' feet off to this day?

None so blind, Keith, none so bloody blind. That's what bigotry does for you.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM

Israel did not use white phosphorus weapons, only smoke rounds.
They have not even used those this time, so that is good. Right?

Cluster weapons were used by all modern forces, but israel has stopped using them so that is good. Right?

You did say that Israel has a right to defend itself Steve.
How can they do that without hurting anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 14 - 07:29 PM

Israel definitely used white phosphorus, Keith. You remind me of that little lament by Dannie Abse:


They held up a stone.
I said, 'Stone.'
Smiling they said, 'Stone.'

They showed me a tree.
I said, 'Tree.'
Smiling they said, 'Tree.'

They shed a man's blood.
I said, 'Blood.'
Smiling they said, 'Paint.'

They shed a man's blood.
I said, 'Blood.'
Smiling they said, 'Paint.'

They said white phosphorus.
Keith said "smoke round".

They said white phosphorus.
Keith said "smoke round".

They said white phosphorus.
Keith said "smoke round".

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM

There is a huge difference between WP smoke munitions and WP anti-personnel rounds Steve.
Jim and I discussed it in some depth at the time.
Israel has used neither this time, so what is your point?

You agreed that Israel has a right to defend itself, but did you mean only if it does not hurt anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 05:54 AM

"Jim and I discussed it in some depth at the time."
No we didn't - you defend it then - I argued by producing horrific photographs of children whose faces had been burned to the bone by its use, which you ignored, but continued to defend its use.
That cannot be described by any stretch of the imagination as "discussion" - it is your declaration that what you say is unchallengable, possibly due to your claims of "infallibility".
Do not implicate me in your lying.
These weapons have been acknowledges as unacceptable - they declared they would stop using them yet have resumed the practice.
It is not a "latent lie" that you supported iT - you claimed it as "harmless illumination"
"To demonize Israel obviously."
Then why would Israel not deny the use ON WHAT GROUNDS ARE YOU DENYING THE USE OF FLECHETTES IF ISRAEL HAS ACCEPTED THEY HAVE USED THEM BY FAILING TO DENY ACCUSATIONS THAT THEY HAVE?
By the way, your claim that no injuries have been reported was a blatant lie - the first article on them being used reported a woman being brought into a hospital with flechette wounds.
One more try:
IF ISRAEL HAS NOT DENIED USING FLECHETTES, WHAT ARE YOUR GROUNDS FOR DENYING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN USED?
Jim Carroll

Images of "harmless illumination.
ATTACKS ON SCHOOLS

W P "burns to the bone"

ISRAEL GIVES UP WHITE PHOSPHORUS

PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:07 AM

ISRAEL HAS ACCEPTED THEY HAVE USED THEM BY FAILING TO DENY ACCUSATIONS THAT THEY HAVE?
Failing to deny is not an admission Jim.
They do not deny every bit of Palestinian propaganda.

IF ISRAEL HAS NOT DENIED USING FLECHETTES, WHAT ARE YOUR GROUNDS FOR DENYING THAT THEY HAVE BEEN USED?

I do not deny it Jim, but I do say there is no evidence for it.
The claim was one single wounding weeks ago.
If there were one there would be a hundred.

No we didn't - you defend it then
No I did not.

you claimed it as "harmless illumination"
No I did not, and the quote is made up.
They were smoke not illumination rounds.

Why will you never just respond to what I actually say, instead of always bringing up things from years ago that I never said anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 06:54 AM

Here are some actual quotes Jim, not made up ones.
They are quotes of me NOT defending the use of white phosphorus in Gaza.
All dates are 2010

Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 10 - 02:14 PM

Jim, "Show me where you have once acknowledged the damage they do to people."

20th July White phosphorous is nasty stuff,
I do not condone Israel's use of WP where it endangered civillians.
I deplored it.

21st July The use close to civillians was reckless and deplorable,

22nd July You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.
I will say again that I have not supported the use of WP in Gaza
It is dangerous, but not a targetted weapon.
I have said all along that its use in Gaza was reckless and possibly illegal.

25th July Emma, I agree WP is too dangerous to use in populated areas
Everyone knows that phosphorus burns

26th july I have never denied that smoke munitions can cause injury, and said its use here was deplorable and possibly illegal.
Do I need to say again that I deplored its use here and said it might have been illegal?
I never suggested smoke was harmless. In fact I said all along that it should not have been used and may have been illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 07:46 AM

It was good to see the big Jewish block of marchers on the huge London demonstration in support of Gaza two weeks ago.

The march was made up of people from many backgrounds and religions [ and none ].

All there to demand an end to the bombing of Gaza, the mass murder of its children, an ending of the military and economic blockade of this ruined city, and the stopping of arms and munitions to Israel by the UK government.

In contrast, the defence of the slaughter by assorted Zionists and right wing neo con types and other apologists has been sickening.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 08:12 AM

What about all the suffering and death, on a vaster scale, over Israel's other border?
You never post about that Ivor.
What is the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 09:36 AM

This thread is about BDS and Israel!

Israel knows a great deal about the other side of its borders having attacked over them quite a number of times over the years...Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Tunisia ,Jordan but have I missed any out? Oh yes they killed about a dozen Turkish volunteers on a relief boat heading to Gaza three years ago.

The attacks on Lebanon and Beirut were extremely brutal.Israel connived as the refugee camps of Sabra and shatilla were attacked by its falangist allies who went in with knives and machine guns to commit mass murder on children ,babies, women and the elderly.

The Palestinian fighters had previously left by ship after being given assurances that their refugee families would not be harmed.

The IDF guarded the perimeters of the refugee camps while the killers went in to do the wet work.

Incidentally, Israel is the only country that I know of which will not state where its border lies to the east......it intends to keep moving it and enlarging its territory.

It may be that the ISIS murderers in Iraq have a great deal in common with the Israeli murderers of Gaza...both sets of killers seem to enjoy their work.Both armed with American weaponry. Both claim divine sanction for their killings.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 10:47 AM

The killing, carnage and destruction in Syria and Iraq dwarfs Gaza but you ignore it Ivor, never posting on those threads.
What is the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 11:15 AM

Keith
Two quotes from you on the use of White Phosphorus in Gaza
"They are quotes of me NOT defending the use of white phosphorus in Gaza. "White phosphorus is used for illumination and making smoke, but it does burn.
That is how it makes light and smoke."

"Phosphorus is not that toxic.
In Gaza smoke munitions were used to create smoke."

"I said it was wrong and deplorable"
Where have you said it - you have claimed you have said it but you never have.
Here you are claiming to have said it?
Bollocks

"Failing to deny is not an admission Jim."
It most certainly is:
Flechettes are marginally allowable against combatants - against civilians they are a banned weapon.
Israel has them as part of their weaponry and it has used them before.
If it had not used them they would have denied carrying out a war crime - they have not.
i ask again BY WOSE AUTHORITY OTHER THAN YOUR OWN DO YOU DENY THEIR USE, OR EVEN QUESTION IT?
Your main defence of Israeli war crimes hs been that if they had committed them they would have been condemned by democratic nations - support by silence.
You appear to be wanting one rule for you and one for the rest of us again.
"What about all the suffering and death, on a vaster scale, over Israel's other border?"
What has this to do with what has happened in Gaza?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:17 PM

An indication to the state of Israel today is the mob of 200 young Zionists thugs attacking the wedding of a young Jewish woman and a young Palestinian citizen of Israel [ 20% of Israel's population are Palestinian and treated like second or third class citizens in Israel ].
The mob were held at bay but were shouting 'Death to the Arabs!' and 'Death to the leftists!' which by my reckoning means they are calling for the murder of about 30% of the population of Israel ...and this before they renew their attack on Gaza and elsewhere.
But good luck to Morel Malka and Mahmoud Mansour in their new life together..they will need it.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:24 PM

I suppose that when you have to choose between saying you were wrong and carrying on defending mass slaughter of innocents, it's best to just keep bare facing it out eh Keith?

I've backed a few wrong horses myself over the years, but mainly at my annual trip to Doncaster St Ledger or York Magnet Cup.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 12:54 PM

Jim, are you denying that my quotes are genuine.
In them I deplore the use of white phos. in Gaza and suggest it might be illegal.

against civilians they are a banned weapon.

All weapons are banned against civilians, chump!

Musket,
I suppose that when you have to choose between saying you were wrong and carrying on defending mass slaughter of innocents,

I have not been wrong, and I have never defended "mass slaughter of innocents," so what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 01:49 PM

"Jim, are you denying that my quotes are genuine."
No - I am saying you have taken them out of context, largely made in defence of previous statements - I provided two that put them in context and show your attitude to be defending the use of White Phosphorus by downgrading it as "illumination" while it was burning the faces off children.
"I have not been wrong, and I have never defended "mass slaughter of innocents," so what is your point?"
You defended Israel's role in the mass slaughter of the Sabra Shatila refugees and you defended Assad's slaughter of the people of Homs by suggesting that he be sold riot control equipment and it was OK to sell him "only a hnadful of" sniper rifles and chemicals to make weapons.
I ask again BY WHOSE AUTHORITY ARE YOU TAKING IT ON YOURSELF TO CLAIM ISRAEL HAS NOT USED FLECHETTES - ISRAEL HAS NEVER DENIED THEY HAVE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM

Jimmy,

And YOU have defended Hamas using human shields, anti-personnel warheads on civilians, and killing children to make attack tunnels to attack civilians.


So?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:25 PM

Jim, here again are the statements I made just on 22 July 2010,

" You will see that I have not supported its use in Gaza.
I said it was wrong and deplorable. It could also be illegal.

I will say again that I have not supported the use of WP in Gaza

I have said all along that its use in Gaza was reckless and possibly illegal."

Unequivocal whatever the context.
Your claim that I DID support its use is shown to be a lie, as I said.

The quotes you put up are simple statements of fact not opinion, and are not at all supporting the use of WP.

"BY WHOSE AUTHORITY ARE YOU TAKING IT ON YOURSELF TO CLAIM ISRAEL HAS NOT USED FLECHETTES "

Again Jim, I make no such claim, but I do say that no evidence for their use has yet been produced.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 02:31 PM

Re flechettes:

I quoted ONE report by a Palestinian source that 6 tank rounds were fired, causing ONE Palestinian woman to be wounded. Claim only, no physical evidence of flechettes.

No other use has been brought out, even by the Palestinian sources that have access to the hospitals to obtain any shrapnel from wounds.

One might well suspect the absence of shrapnel being brought out as evidence has something to do with the number of ANTI_PERSONNEL WARHEADS that HAMAS has dropped on Gaza, with identifiable shrapnel.


Not quite the mass slaughter that Jimmy would like to see, obviously.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:03 PM

"Not quite the mass slaughter that Jimmy would like to see, obviously."
Waste of time asking you wen I have advocated the slaughter of anybody, just as it would asking me to comment on Israeli death squads.
Never claimed mass slaughter by flechettes - just that they were used - you appear to agree
've posted what you said about W.P. being 'illumination' = which gives everything else you've said context Keith
Shit - I'm missing Holby City talking to you pair of gobshites
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:07 PM

Jimmy boy,

READ MY POST.

"Never claimed mass slaughter by flechettes - just that they were used - you appear to agree
'"

YOU have been claiming said slaughter OF CIVILIANS- Don't you even bother to read YOUR OWN POSTS???????I said that there was ONE report by an unverified source.

NOT the wholesale use YOU have claimed has been killing Palestinian civilians.

You are a sorry excuse for a person if you don't understand simple statements.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 03:44 PM

Jim, white phosphorous IS used in illumination flares, including those used at sea.
It is also used to produce smoke.
It is also used in incendiary munitions.

I was educating you with facts, not stating any opinion except that I did not agree with its use in Gaza.

Now Jim, instead of trying to discredit me by misrepresenting things I said years ago, why not start replying to what I actually say this year???

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 14 - 04:20 PM

And YOU have defended Hamas using human shields, anti-personnel warheads on civilians, and killing children to make attack tunnels to attack civilians.

And YOU do not have a scrap of evidence for any of this, prancing goatee copy 'n' paste clown. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 12:14 AM

The boycott of Israel has been strengthened in California when thousands turned out in the port city of Oakland to picket the docking of an Israeli cargo ship belonging to the zim shipping line.
The longshoremen bolstered by the community picketing refused to handle the cargo and the ship has had to stay out at sea while the owners ponder the nest move.
The mass murder of hundreds of children in gaza...a little girl was killed by an air strike yesterday ... Cannot fail but to strengthen the demand for a boycott of the murderous state of Israel.. A state that the Israeli commentator Mike peled so accurately said recently was founded on racism and colonialism.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 01:10 AM

"A state that the Israeli commentator Mike peled so accurately said recently was founded on racism and colonialism"
.,,.

Ah: like the USA, which, as has frequently been said, by distinguished director Michael Moore et al, was founded on a firm basis of slavery and genocide. Last I heard, at least the Israelis don't have laws permitting slave ownership...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 04:35 AM

"YOU have been claiming said slaughter OF CIVILIANS"
Not with flechettes you moron - I put up a link showing six were fired
It also pointed out that only one woman was reported as being injured
You read what has been put up - or get someone to read it for you.
No comments on the Israeli death squads then killing survivors then? - thought not
"Jim, white phosphorous IS used in illumination flares, including those used at sea."
Cricket bats are for hitting balls - used as weapons they can be lethal
Israel has been using white phosphorus as weapons and has admitted that their use is unacceptable, yet has resumed use of it.
By suggesting that it was only used for illumination, you have supported that use throughout
Your claim, first that flechettes were legal, then that their use was faked, is, similarly, support for their use.
You are a squalid atrocity supporter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 04:45 AM

Israel has been using white phosphorus as weapons

No, it has not used them as weapons.
Only as smoke and illumination.

and has admitted that their use is unacceptable,

In civilian areas yes.

yet has resumed use of it.

No. It has not.

By suggesting that it was only used for illumination, you have supported that use throughout

Incendiary weapons have not been used, only smoke and illumination.


Your claim, first that flechettes were legal, then that their use was faked, is, similarly, support for their use.

They are a legal weapon, and we only have one unsubstantiated claim from one Palestinian propaganda group that they have beeen used in Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 05:29 AM

Jim, you claimed I supported the use of WP in Gaza, but the truth is that I "deplored" it and repeatedly said so.

Because you can not reply to what I actually say, you try to discredit me by lying about what was said years ago.

Let us just discuss the issues and not me always.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:10 AM

"Jim, you claimed I supported the use of WP in Gaza, but the truth is that I "deplored" it and repeatedly said so.
For cryig out loud Keith - the time you have spent both on flechette and White Phosphorus, either explaining they are "legal", "not used by Israel", makes it obvious that you don't give a shit what Israel does, what weapons she uses and who she uses them on.
In your time here you have defended the ethnic cleansing of Bedouins, the setting up of an Apartheid State, the slaughter of civilians and the facilitating of the rape and massacre of up to 3500 refugees.... to name but a few of your interests.
You are Mudcat's star Israeli Arselicker and you have displayed less humanity than anybody I have encountered.
You have become a standing joke on this forum for your hatred of humanity and your predictability.
You continue to support Israel's use of white phosphorus - great, couldn't finish on a batter note.
If you need the lend of a shovel, there's a spare one in the shed - dig away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM

"The Palestinian Ambassador to the U.N. Human Rights Council, Ibrahim Khraishi admitted on a live television interview recently, in a moment of extreme candor, that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round.

His comments, which were made on a Palestinian Authority TV interview in July and translated by MEMRI, are particularly interesting as the U.N., over the last few days, has put together a panel of so-called experts to compile a report on alleged Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians. The claims arise over Israel's actions during its recent defensive war against Hamas in Gaza, and its response to the launching of thousands of rockets and the digging of dozens of terror tunnels.

For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."

The new U.N. commission, which was just announced, is being headed by well-known anti-Israel genocide expert William Schabas. Undoubtedly, it will make a mockery of the real facts on the ground in the ongoing conflict between the Jewish State and the Palestinians, and will likely echo the previous discredited inquiry chaired by Richard Goldstone.

based on past performance, the U.N. is unlikely to bring Hamas or the Palestinian Authority to task for firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately on Israeli towns and villages. The Hamas policy, which it does not deny, is to purposely fire those rockets from schools and mosques in the hope that Israeli retaliations would cause maximum Palestinian civilian casualties and garner world support against Israel."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:00 AM

I see from today's new reports that Israel has been following its usual 'war protocol' of slaughtering yet more Palestinian children..at least 5 in the past 2 days.... plus the slaying of a heavily pregnany woman in Gaza.
Apparently it aimed a missile at a Palestinian commander and killed instead eleven others.
I am not in the least surprised by the mass killings of civilians in Gaza nor should anyone else who has been following events in blockaded Gaza, Israel and the occupied territories.
Israel was founded on terror . It has spent decades murdering and terrorising the people of Palestine. They are the living witness to the crimes of the Israeli state and oh how the leaders of Israel and its backers wish they would go away and disperse around the world.
There have been scores of massacres, some well known and many others barely noticed by the outside world.
Deir Yassin, the bombing of Beirut, the attacks by Israeli warplanese on the refugees in the UN base in Southern Lebanon , Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, the use of white phospherous against civilians and the destruction of whole neighbourhoods in Gaza while the young zionist mobs cheered and exulted at the murder of Palestinian children.
Zionism didn't start out as such a violent and savage political idea but its historical development as a colonial and racist ideology has almost inevitably led to those right wing killers intensifying the savagery against the Palestinians...the victims and witness to their crimes.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:25 AM

"that Hamas are the ones perpetrating war crimes against Israel and not the other way round."
That is what the Israeli Press said - your link includes a film in which the Ambassador said that both the Israelis and Palestinians were guilty of war crimes - watch the film - it comes with a translation, so your friend should have no difficulty explaining it to you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 10:33 AM

Jimmy boy,

I provided NO LINK, just my post.

If you have one that shows what you state, provide it- OR REMAIN A LIAR.

YOU make a claim that my non-posted link shows something- SO POST THAT LINK.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:35 AM

"If you have one that shows what you state, provide it- OR REMAIN A LIAR."
You have one - go and watch it O Bearded Braindead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:38 AM

I think the casualties of the past few weeks show much of what has been happening:
64 Israeli soldiers killed and hundreds wounds plus three civilian death

10000+ Palestinian wounded including hundreds of children and women
2500+ Palestinian dead including over 400 children.
The refugee city of Gaza smashed with whole neighbourhoods obliterated by Israeli bombing and shelling.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:46 AM

Jimmy,

YOU state:

"You claimed the Hamas ambassador said that it was Hamas and not Israel who were guilty of war crimes
You posted a link purporting to be him saying it.
The link shows that in fact he said that both bere guilty of committing war crimes
"

In regards to the rockets that HAMAS launches, he DOES state that the Hamas rockest are ecah war crimes, and the Israeli attack are NOT, since there is warning.

He claims that Israel is guilty of other unspecified war crimes, but on the Hamas rockets and warned Israeli rockets, missiles, and artillery attacks on Gaza he is quite specific that HAMAS AND NOT ISRAEL is guilty of war crimes.

People who want the truth can go to the NOW POSTED link and see for themselves. Maybe YOU should as well.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 11:59 AM

Jim,
You continue to support Israel's use of white phosphorus - great, couldn't finish on a batter note.

I have just produced a string of quotes where I clearly say I "deplore" it.
Not "support" Jim, but "deplore."

Try to see and understand the difference Jim dear.

Factual explanation of the legal position and the types of munition do not constitute any kind of support for anything.

Now please, stop trying to smear me with lies about posts over 4 years old and just respond to what I actually say.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:09 PM

"I have just produced a string of quotes where I clearly say I "deplore" it."
You have also made a string of quotes designed to present the apalling stuff as harmless by which you have well and truly your deploring the bullshit it is - pretty well on par with drowning us all in your crocodile tears for the Homs victims while at the same time sondoning the sale of arms to the killer and proposing that Britain provides the wherewithal to bang up the surviving protesters in his torture chambers.
Are you really unaware of how stupid you look making such contradictory claims?
Braindead Brucie
Both sides have committed war crimes - the relative seriousness of these are there for all top see.
One side has put its hands up to committing war crimes - the other has yet to and is unlikely to.
Amerca and Israel are now in cahoots to make sure that an enquiry into Israel's latest behaviour doesn't take place.
Israel's response to the information that I.D.F. death squads have been targeting the survivors of their ethnic cleansing campaign has been to arrest the Israeli soldier who confirmed that it was taking place.
You are now employing diversionary tactics to avoid acknowledging this fact and to avoid even commenting on the figures Ivor has just put up.
Personally I have no time for Hamas and have never put up a single word in its favour.
You, on the other hand, have openly supported the Israeli atrocities that have taken place, recently, and in the past.
You have consistently attempted to offset criticism of an extremely right-wing regime by blaming the Jews and claiming all criticism of those atrocities and being "Antisemitic".
You had the temerity to ask if my family would be proud of my ideas - I trust you haven't got round to asking yourself if those of your people who perished in the Nazi ovens would be proud of your blaming them for what these bastards have turned Israel into in their name         
Now respond t facts or piss off - you have even less to say than Acheson the Arsehole (if that were humanly possible)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:22 PM

Jimmy,

The following are direct quotes from the video:

"For fear of being taken to the International Criminal Court for prosecution, Khraishi advised his interviewer that it was best all round if the issue was not raised with the U.N. In his own words, "each and every" Palestinian missile fired on Israel constitutes "a crime against humanity," while he admitted that Israel "followed the legal procedures" when carrying out retaliatory attacks against Hamas terrorists, who purposely embed themselves within civilian populations.

Even a Hamas spokesman admitted on a TV interview recently that: "The Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. As for the missiles launched from our side, we never warn anyone about where these missiles are about to fall or about the operations we carry out."

U.N. Watch, an NGO body that monitors the U.N., reported that Ambassador Ibrahim Khraishi wasn't coy in his assertions of Palestinian war crimes. As he said himself:

"I am not a candidate in any Palestinian elections, so I don't need to win popularity among the Palestinians. The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets."

Khraishi spelled out very clearly the fact that, in his opinion, the Israeli side followed proper war protocol, unlike the terrorist factions occupying Gaza:

"Please note that many of our people in Gaza appeared on TV and said that the Israelis warned them to evacuate their homes before the bombardment. In such a case, if someone is killed, the law considers it a mistake rather than an intentional killing because [the Israelis] followed the legal procedures."





This is HAMAS stating that the Israeli attacks are NOT WAR CRIMES.

This is HAMAS stating that what Hamas does ARE WAR CRIMES.



DO YOU DENY THIS- YES OR NO?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Aug 14 - 02:24 PM

You have also made a string of quotes designed to present the apalling stuff as harmless

Another lie Jim.
Of course it is not harmless and I would never suggest any such ridiculous thing.

Everything I stated is actual, accurate fact.
(Or will you quote one statement that is not?)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 01:41 AM

I expect the cals for an academic boycott of Israel to increase rapidly during the coming months.
The bosses of many universities in Israel have already told their students and staff who fought...and slaughtered ..in gaza that they are to receive special allowances and privileges aware ward for their efforts.
In contrast Palestinian schools have been destroyed, universities have been attacked and Palestinian school children killed in droves. Hundreds of thousands are in need of psychological help and of course have to try to get through next winter with out clean water, proper shelter and adequate food..and all this in a ruined city.
Thousands of children have been seriously wounded by the bombs, shells and missile strikes.
The boycott will help show that the children and their parents are not being forgotten.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:55 AM

"This is HAMAS stating that what Hamas does ARE WAR CRIMES."
No it is not
The ambassador makes it clear in his statement that it is his personal opinion and he is speaking on behalf of nobody but himself.
His point is a valid one - Hamas rockets are a war crime as war crimes are judged by U.N., though they have killed less than 20 people in 12 years.
Whether Israeli actions are war crimes remains to be seen.
The discrepancy between the casualties of both sides (exceeding 20 to one to date) and the number of non combatants, particularly women and children dead and injured indicates a massacre.
From the beginning, those at the receiving end have claimed the warnings given were less than useless.
Hospitals claimed they had no time to even begin to evacuate their patents before the announced attacks - many patients were killed and injured - one hospital for incurables simply declared it was staying put.
Shortly after the bombardments began, those on the ground said they simply had nowhere to go - all the likely refuges were already full to overflowing -thousands crowded onto open fields and beaches.
As far as established refuges - the organisers of one of the early U.N. shelters that was destroyed supplied the co-ordinates of the position to the Israelis 17 times, including on the morning of the attack.
They had been instructed by the Israelis to get everybody inside and stay were they were - and then they were bombarded - if that is not a war crime, I'm fucked if I know what is.
Incidents such as these have been common.
I have no idea what prompted the ambassador to say what he did, but he certainly was not speaking for Hamas, who have declared Israel's action a war-crime throughout.
The Israeli death squads constitute war Crimes - Israel has arrested the soldier who reported that they were taking place.
The use of flechette. DIME and White Phosphorus on civilians constitute war crimes.
The deliberate - or even indiscriminate targeting of non-combatants is a war crime.
The whole inhuman mess is a war crime, and what falls under permissible shouldn't be as far as civilian victims are concerned.
The Israeli army has behaved like uniformed thugs acting under the instructions of exactly the same brand of right-wing monsters that filled the ovens of Auschwitz.
Any Jew claiming that what has happened is in any way "Jewish", has disgraced the Jewish people by associating them with this slaughter.   
The United Nations has voted 29-1, with 17 countries abstaining, to set up a commission to investigate possible war crimes in this conflict.
Characteristically, Israel and the U.S. are attempting to prevent any enquiry from taking place.
There you go Weirdie Beardie - pick the bones out of that
Jim Carroll
Incidentally - your Ambassadors statement seems to have come from the somewhat shoddy 'Inquisitr' site which you chose not to link
It includes a film clip of the ambassador speaking, as do most sites carrying the story, including those from Israel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:47 AM

The use of flechette. DIME and White Phosphorus on civilians constitute war crimes.
The use of any weapons on civilians constitutes war crimes., but no evidence any of those used in Gaza this year.

The deliberate - or even indiscriminate targeting of non-combatants is a war crime.
Yes, but no evidence of IDF doing either.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

"Yes, but no evidence of IDF doing either."
There is every evidence of both - has to be one or the other
Piss off Keith - you've done enough yto justify your wage packet as an Israeli propagandist.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:31 AM

No evidence of them targeting non-combatants Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 07:57 AM

BDS is an anti-semitic hateful movement calling for the desctruction of the State of Israel. AVAAZ has joined the campaign and endorsed it.

Not only does it provide a platform for the hateful campaign, it also goes through un-precedented steps to promote it sharing op-eds supporting BDS with AVAAZ members!

It is sickening for such a great organization to be used in such a horrible and hateful way.

Please-

Stop standing with Hamas Terrorism and start standing with Israeli democracy.
Stop standing with Palestinian Hatred and start standing with Historical Justice.
Stop standing with Anti-Israel Lies and start standing with HOPE.

Remove your support from the Boycott movement and start supporting the only democracy in the middle east, fighting for its right to exist and for the survival of liberal values in this chaotic area of the world!

Join the Campaign

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 08:51 AM

Now then, mad minnow. BDS is neither antisemitic (it calls for boycott and sanctions against Israel, not "Jews" - two million Arabs, Christians and none of the above live in Israel, remember?) nor does it call for the destruction of Israel (it wants boycott and sanctions until Israel complies with its international obligations). It's all there on the website, which you forgot to check out. Just because some frenetic Zionist starts a petition on AVAAZ, it doesn't make lies come true, chump.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:08 AM

I like the Desmond Tutu letter that accompanied the pro-BDS petition.
I signed it, and also donated to the Middle East Children's Alliance.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:19 AM

"No evidence of them targeting non-combatants Jim."
Then they are indiscriminately firing at everything that comes within range
From your great depth of wisdom, can you confirm that this is a war crime
Have you anything other than denial to offer as information?
Jim Carroll

INFRASTRUCTURE

CIVILIANS

FLEEING CIVILIANS

U S ROLE IN COVER_UP

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 10:27 AM

From your great depth of wisdom, can you confirm that this is a war crime

It would be if it was true, but it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 11:25 AM

So you are confirming that, in spite of past denials, Israel is indiscriminately firing on hospitals, schools and,.... well, everything in range really
That seems to have that sorted - put it on the out tray along with Sabta/Shatila, wite phosphorus, DIME and flechettes, et al.
No comment on the clips and none of your own to disprove them - same out-tray then
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 11:57 AM

Sorry, Jimmy boy.

Israel is neither " targeting non-combatants", NOR are they " indiscriminately firing at everything that comes within range" as YOU claim.


Haas on the other hand is deliberately targeting non-combatants, as well as using protected sites for military purposes in volition of the Geneva Conventions. You seem OK with that- after al, it is only Israeli non-combatants they TARGET- The hundreds of Gazan Palestinian civilians being killed by Hamas anti-personnel rockets that misfire are certainly NOT targeted at Gaza- that is just an unplanned byproduct of their strategy that they take full advantage of.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 12:03 PM

If there are legitimate targets present, then the attacks are not indiscriminate.

We know such facilities have been hit.
Some undoubtedly by faulty hamas rockets, but who knows how many?
Some undoubtedly because hamas was operating illegally close.
Israel denies any indiscriminate firing, so what evidence is there Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 12:32 PM

The National Union of Students in the UK has voted recenmtly to back the academic boycott of Israel.
It has been a long haul to win this vote but the British students are sickened at seeing their Palestinian contemporaries shot down by snipers and by IDF soldiers armed with everything from rubber bullets on the West bank to tank rounds and artillery in and around Gaza.
Not only have school students been shot down or blown up but their schools and colleges have been attacked on the West Bank and in Gaza.
Moreover their teachers and lecturers have been shot or arrested and thrown into cells often without even a trial.

And the Palestinian children are stranded in Gaza with little food , no shelter and facing a bleak winter and all kinds of illnesses and deadly diseases in the months ahead.

It is clear that across the world there is a grassroots movement gaining momentum to label Israel for what it is..an apartheid regime that not only oppresses the Palestinian people but is sanguine about the mass murder of its children and young people.

There is nothing anti semitic about this.

Indeed there are many Israeli citizens , both Jewish and non Jewish, who see the injustices done to the Palestinians on a daily basis [ the bulldozing of homes, theft of land, the roadblocks and 'security controls' , the casual shootings of Palestinians on the West Bank and the armed Zionist mobs terrorising villagers ] etc and they support the boycott.


In addition, across the world Jewish people are marching with their non Jewish friends and work mates to oppose the bombing of Gaza and the lifting of its blockade.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 01:59 PM

"Israel denies any indiscriminate firing, so what evidence is there Jim?"
Bck to the alternative then - they deliberately slaughtered 2000+ people and made a hugh swathe of Gaza unlivable.
Don't know who Haas is targeting - total rocket deaths by Hamas are less than 20 in 12 years and 100 Israelis in the fighting
"The hundreds of Gazan Palestinian civilians being killed by Hamas anti-personnel rockets that misfire are certainly NOT targeted at Gaza- that is just an unplanned byproduct of their strategy that they take full advantage of."
You have evidence of this other than Israeli claims - no?
Thought not.
We do know that Israeli soldiers have gone around shooting survivors, but don't suppose they count.
Have we finished with the "war crimes" bit then?
Suppose so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 02:25 PM

Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people.

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:41 PM

Jimy boy does NOT deal in facts. He objects to them


If Israel was TRYING to kill Palestinian civilians, the death tole would be more like 1,500,000 dead now.

You keep saying how crowded Gaza is, and how there is NOWHERE to escape to, yet of 1,500,000 Gazans, with NO SHELTERS (Thanks again, Hamas!) constantly being shelled, about 2,000 have been killed ( How many by Hamas rockets and executioners) and about half of those were likely combatants ( see the figures from the previous time- Hamas is STILL claiming EXACTLY 82% civilians, just as they did last time. Boy, those Israelis are precise!

And as for not enough Israelis being killed, it is not due to a lack of Hamas effort- Rather it is because of the efforts Israel takes to DEFEND its population, and PROTECT THEM,UNLIKE HAMAS who use the civilian population to protect their weapons and fighters.


And where is YOUR evidence of ANY israelis "death squads", or "shooting survivors"?

POST IT.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 04:45 PM

"When I was in high school, my synagogue was firebombed, as was another about 20 miles away. A couple of years after I finished college, one of our synagogue members was held hostage by Arab militants who took over the building housing the Jewish organization where he worked.

I didn't grow up in Paris or Paraguay, but in a quiet suburb of Washington, D.C., and it's been almost 40 years since I last lived there. Which is the point: the dramatic surge in anti-Semitic violence prompted by war in Gaza and documented by a recent report from the Anti-Defamation League is not a one-time phenomenon. Rather, it's just the latest manifestation of decades of anti-Jewish prejudice deliberately instigated by Israel's opponents and indulged by the West.

The poisonous impact is deeply personal for every Diaspora Jew. My family and many others pay what I've dubbed the "Jew Tax;" that is, the portion of our suburban Chicago synagogue dues that goes for surveillance cameras, alarms and a security guard on duty during services and when kids are in Hebrew school.

Similar expenses burden synagogues and major Jewish community institutions in Washington, New York, Los Angeles, Miami and other areas where anti-Jewish violence or its threat is all too real. Some organizations take down identifying signs visible from major roads. Others, unable to hide, deploy other measures. One Jewish day school in a high-profile location protects its parking lot with thick steel gates designed to deter would-be car bombers. It is a depressing sight. The anti-Israel anti-Semites cannot put us in ghettos, but they've slowly forced us to build our own walls.

For the record, my home synagogue was firebombed in 1968 by garden variety anti-Semites, not anti-Zionists, while the recent firebombing of a Jewish center in France was an ostensibly anti-Zionist act. It is a distinction without a difference. The terrorists who took my fellow shul member hostage at B'nai B'rith headquarters in Washington back in 1977, killing two people in the process, sent a clear message about the definition of "Zionist" targets. These days, it's commonplace for Jewish institutions in Europe, South America and elsewhere to be surrounded by military-scale security precautions.

Indeed, if you go down the list of some 100 nations on six continents with affiliates of the World Jewish Congress, and the vast majority are places where anti-Zionist anti-Semites pose some level of threat, with or without a Mideast flare-up as an excuse.

Stop and consider that for a moment. No Christian, Muslim or practitioner of any other faith faces anything remotely close to the worldwide threat of unexpected violence that shadows Jewish religious and communal activities from Austria to Argentina to Australia -- and, yes, even in the United States. It is truly unprecedented.

So what can be done?

As Palestinians and Israelis continue to struggle to turn the Gaza cease-fire into something more permanent, Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal may have provided an inadvertent path forward. In his recent interview with U.S. journalist Charlie Rose, Meshaal wanted it clearly understood that Hamas is not anti-Semitic.

"We are not fanatics, we are not fundamentalists," Meshaal protested. "We do not actually fight the Jews because they are Jews, per se. We fight the occupiers."

Inconveniently for Meshaal, Hamas's charter is filled with explicit anti-Semitic language. Still, that charter is more than a quarter-century old. What might happen if the world publicly took Hamas, among the most radical of Israel's enemies, at its word? (Presuming, of course, that Hamas' protestations about prejudice include "Zionist" Jews, meaning almost all of us.)

The first step would be to challenge Hamas leaders to repeat in Arabic on Al Jazeera and in the mosques what they (and other Palestinian leaders) are willing to say in English. That demand would be most effective if it came not just from Israel's traditional friends, but from nations who insist their ire is directed at Israeli policies, not Jews. Perhaps the Qatari or Turkish governments could pay to restock those British supermarkets that removed all their kosher food due to threats of "anti-Israel" attacks.

But there's also a much more important economic element. Those vocal liberal activists who've urged boycotting, divesting from and sanctioning Israel due to the occupation must step forward and demonstrate that violations of Jewish rights concern them as deeply as those affecting Palestinians. Here's one suggestion: in the spirit of Christian fellowship, the Presbyterian Church should publicly announce that it will suspend support of anti-occupation activities -- boycott the boycott -- until its allies undertake clearly defined actions to combat anti-Jewish activities in Europe and elsewhere.

More is at stake here than freedom from fear. A clash of religious beliefs, as Muslims should understand better than anyone, offers nothing but endless bloodshed. In contrast, a dispute over boundaries of even a much-promised piece of land in the Middle East holds some hope of resolution. On the way there, it's time to end the "Jew Tax." The war against the Jews must stop, and it's long past time to pressure the anti-Semitic anti-Zionists to take concrete steps to end it."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:31 PM

Zionism has turned Israel into one of the most violent countries on earth.
It is a country where the 20% minority non Jewish population is harassed and discriminated against as a matter of routine and even its elected members of the Knesset are threatened and intimidated.


But it is aso a country where, on a weekly basis, the non Israeli population of the illegally occupied territories are shot, arrested or beaten up.


These people see on a regular basis homes demolished , houses ransacked, the elderly humiliated and orchards and trees destroyed.


They see land stolen by Israeli paramilitary settlers armed with guns who drive shepherds from their grazing land and farmers from their olive groves.


Water is stolen and in the Negev Desert in the south of the country Bedouin arabs are routinely attacked and their villages destroyed. All this on a routine basis.


Palestinian schools are denied funds and Palestinian universities closed or attacked. Palestinian students are disciplined for speaking and threatened by organised gangs of Zionists.


But it is not only Palestinians who are suffering in this violent and racist state. African migrant workers and refugees are routinely harassed and threatened.

Eithipian Jewish women have been sterilised against their will such is the racism of the zionists.

Other 'guest ' workers, from Thailand for example, have been shabbily treated while even the original minority Jewish population of Israel has been treated badly for having a Jewish-Arabic culture


I am amazed at the arrogance of the new Israelis often from the USA or Russia who end up totin' uzis on the West Bank and terrorizing the Palestinian population. These are characters who have probably never met a Palestinian unless he is pointing a gun at one!

We should not be surprised at this sick culture of violence and intolerance. Netanyahu is a child killer but the gangs of zionist youth shouting ' Death to the arabs! and Death to the leftists! show exactly where this racist and violent society is heading.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 05:36 PM

Source for: 21 Aug 14 - 04:45 PM , Bullshot? Or just more made-up bullshit per your usual nonsensical spew?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:43 PM

Hey Greg, why don't you ask comrade Ivor for his sources for the anti semitic bullshit he posts?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:46 PM

Is that supposed to legitimize Bullshot's spew, Boo?

Thought you espoused the antithisis of relativisism.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 06:55 PM

Ivor expresses his opinions. Mad-minnow bobad and prancing beardie-weirdie copy and paste. So lazy. Usually sans attribution. Zionist stooges!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:37 AM

"When I was in high school, my synagogue was firebombed"
You have a habit on not linking your postings Brucie.
This one comes from Michael Millington, an extremist Zionist who equates Anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism.
You conveniently left out part of his statement which demands that those who disagree with Israel's action in Gaza should be boycotted and the Christian Church should be part of that boycott.
The article is entitled 'The Jew Tax' and I've pasted the bit you missed out below.
"Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people."
Wouldn't she just say that.
So far, the nearest she has offered in proof to that statement is two young men on a motorcycle who were blasted to unidentifiable smithereens.
Keep it up Keith - you'll get there eventually - not
Jim Carroll

The Jew Tax (continued)
Michael Millington
"The first step would be to challenge Hamas leaders to repeat in Arabic on Al Jazeera and in the mosques what they (and other Palestinian leaders) are willing to say in English. That demand would be most effective if it came not just from Israel's traditional friends, but from nations who insist their ire is directed at Israeli policies, not Jews. Perhaps the Qatari or Turkish governments could pay to restock those British supermarkets that removed all their kosher food due to threats of "anti-Israel" attacks.
But there's also a much more important economic element. Those vocal liberal activists who've urged boycotting, divesting from and sanctioning Israel due to the occupation must step forward and demonstrate that violations of Jewish rights concern them as deeply as those affecting Palestinians. Here's one suggestion: in the spirit of Christian fellowship, the Presbyterian Church should publicly announce that it will suspend support of anti-occupation activities -- boycott the boycott -- until its allies undertake clearly defined actions to combat anti-Jewish activities in Europe and elsewhere.
More is at stake here than freedom from fear. A clash of religious beliefs, as Muslims should understand better than anyone, offers nothing but endless bloodshed. In contrast, a dispute over boundaries of even a much-promised piece of land in the Middle East holds some hope of resolution. On the way there, it's time to end the "Jew Tax." The war against the Jews must stop, and it's long past time to pressure the anti-Semitic anti-Zionists to take concrete steps to end it."
As Palestinians and Israelis continue to struggle to turn the Gaza cease-fire into something more permanent, Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal may have provided an inadvertent path forward. In his recent interview with U.S. journalist Charlie Rose, Meshaal wanted it clearly understood that Hamas is not anti-Semitic.
"We are not fanatics, we are not fundamentalists," Meshaal protested. "We do not actually fight the Jews because they are Jews, per se. We fight the occupiers."
Inconveniently for Meshaal, Hamas's charter is filled with explicit anti-Semitic language. Still, that charter is more than a quarter-century old. What might happen if the world publicly took Hamas, among the most radical of Israel's enemies, at its word? (Presuming, of course, that Hamas' protestations about prejudice include "Zionist" Jews, meaning almost all of us.)

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,ivor
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:34 AM

To Bobab,
I am not at all anti semitic. Millions of people across the world have just seen the refugee city of Gaza being destroyed and its children murdered or wounded in their hundreds by Israeli war planes, tanks , artillery shells and so on.

Israel is an 'apartheid state' that keeps committing mass murder ,or as one of its leaders so charmingly put it, 'mow the grass'.

There are many Jewish people across the world who are strongly opposed to the murderous policies being committed by Israel's right wing government.

The accusation is that they are 'self hating Jews '...actually they just can't stand the the Palestinian population being slaughtered time after time by the IDF.


There have been at least four huge national demonstrations and numerous local rallies in support of Gaza in the UK in the past few weeks .Jewish and non Jewish people demonstrating together against the violent vicious and racist Israeli state.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:02 AM

Zionism has turned Israel into one of the most violent countries on earth.

Says who?
It is about the least violent place in the whole region.

Jim,Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people.

If Israel are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female killed.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth you would expect young men to be over-represented.
What do we find Jim.

Those three young men on a motorcycle were targeted as Islamic Jihad fighters.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:50 AM

"Jim,Israel says it targets Hamas, but Hamas hides among the people."
Israel has provided no such proof and even if it had, you were extremely outraged when I suggested you supported the killing of hostages - you are now supporting the killing of hostages.
"If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children."
What an incredibly stupid piece of circumstantial evidence to justify the killing of 2000 human beings (the vast majority of them civilians and a large percentage of them children)
The only 'evidence' of the killing of Hamas has been the blowing to unidentifiable smithereens two men on a motor cycle - every other fatiliy has been claimed to be among the 2000+ - without substantiation.
"Those three young men on a motorcycle were targeted as Islamic Jihad fighters"
According to and unproven by Israel alone, nobody has backed that claim -
Israel regards every critic of its policy as Antisemitic so it is likely that they regard the entire population of Gaza as "Hamas Fighters".
While I have your attention, would you like to comment on the fact that Britain is selling arms to the three main states who are providing arms to Isis - no - thought not!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:39 AM

Well Ivor, you say you're not an anti semite then turn around and say Israel is an apartheid state, which it, by any stretch of the imagination, is clearly not. You are demonizing Israel which, by the EUMC definition, is anti semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 06:47 AM

Israel has provided no such proof

How could it?
However, the hard facts of the casualty statistics are strong evidence that it is true.

and even if it had, you were extremely outraged when I suggested you supported the killing of hostages - you are now supporting the killing of hostages.

No I am not.
They are human shields not hostages.
Hamas has made it impossible for Israel to strike back at them without hurting civilians.
They try to reduce the harm to civilians by giving warnings and by allowing pilots to abort missions where civilian casualties would be too heavy.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:00 AM

"However, the hard facts of the casualty statistics are strong evidence that it is true."
No they don't three dead motorcyclists prove nothing
No news on whether you disapprove of arms sales to those selling arms so those who sell arms to Isis - no surprise than
You are a miserably hypocritical little twat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:09 AM

Not the three on a bike Jim, but all the casualty statsistics.

If Israel are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female killed.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?.

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth you would expect young men to be over-represented.
What do we find Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 07:42 AM

Jimmy the illiterate,

I posted the ENTIRE article- INCLUDING the " bit you missed out "

TRY to learn how to read before you make your posts.

This has been a constant problem with you- YOU MAKE STATEMENTS BASED ONLY ON WHAT YOU THINK OTHERS SHOULD HAVE POSTED, and not on what they DO post.

I POSTED ALL- YOU post only a part- what does that say about YOU?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:20 AM

Apologies O Bearded One - misread your posting
I posted the bit I mistakenly thought you missed
What does it say about me?
It says that I am as capable of making mistakes as anybody else but, unlike you, I am prepared to acknowledge them
If you weren't such an insecure, loud-mouthed thug, you would do the same occasionally instead of covering your own ignorance and insecurity with bulling bluster
Please feel free piss of and bully someone who is impressed by such things you braindead lout
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 11:29 AM

"Not the three on a bike Jim, but all the casualty statistics."
There is no serious breakdown of casualties in regard to who are combatants and who are not - only numbers
If israel is telling the truth - there is no truth to tell, and if there was, a bunch of terrorists who facilitated the massacre of three and a half thousand refugees and then stood by and watched it take place would be the last place to look for it.
You do not take the word of the accused on trust, especially while it is still in the process of slaughtering civilians.
Do you have anything to say about the fact that Britain is selling arms to States who are supplying arms to Isis, I wonder.
The states are Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
Care to comment?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:07 PM

Jimmy boy,

"It says that I am as capable of making mistakes as anybody else but, unlike you, I am prepared to acknowledge them
"

Then where is YOUR acknowledgement that the UN school "bombardment" that you blamed on Israeli shelling was due to the HAMAS anti-personnel rocket that landed there?


Or is that a mistake you refuse to acknowledge?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:12 PM

Damn right Israel is an apartheid state!

Firstly, it has oppressed the Palestinian population of what is now Israel and the illegally occupied territories since its very inception in 1948.

It has driven large numbers into exile, imprisoned , often without trial, hundreds of thousands of Palestinian men and women over the years.

It has illegally occupied the West Bank and other areas in defiance of both International Law and the United Nations.

It has bulldozed tens of thousands of Palestinian homes .

It has practiced 'collective punishment' .

It has built an Apartheid Wall or separation wall across Palestinian land cutting off villages and farms from their surrounding fields and neighbouring towns etc.

It has pauperised an entire people stealing land, houses , orchards and desroying villages.

It has committed systematic massacres against the Palestinians at places like Tantura and Deir Yassin as recorded by the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe in his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

It has denied the 20% of Israeli citizens of Palestinian origin the legal or civic rights enjoyed by other Israelis.

It has driven Palestinian people out of neighbourhoods in the illegally occupied East Jerusalem which Israel now claims to be its capital; but which no other country recognises.

It has destroyed mosques and attacked universities.It has underfunded Palestinian universities and schools and again imposed collective punishment on students.

It has beaten up and imprisoned hundreds of Palestinian children and teenagers. Take a look at the youtube short film of an American Jewish youngster who spoke out in defence of Palestinians and just see how he was roughed up by some Israeli thugs in uniform. What a brave young man!

The Palestinian people on the West Bank are barred from using Israeli only roads built in recent years on their own land..land which has been confiscated by the occupying power.

Palestinian workers have been effectively removed from the Israeli economy through a variety of measures including the hated road blocks which keep Palestinian waiting for hours at the side of the road and at the whim of smirking 19 year old soldiers.

This denial of work to the Palestinians goes back to the beginnings of the conflict when 'Hisadrut' the Jewish trade union, set out to ban Palestinian workers from working in Jewish owned businesses.

Armed zionist fanatics are able to scare or terrorise Palestinians quite openly in cities like Hebron but also in the villages on the West Bank.

It is quite clear that Israeli politicians have whipped up hatred of Palestinians for decades. They believe that Palestinian life is cheap. One poor young girl a few years was deliberately shot dead after she wandered too close to an Israeli guard post.

Zionist gangs threaten and attack in East Jerusalem and elsewhere.

Interestingly enough Israel was big pals with apartheid era South Africa and only last week 200,000 South Africans marched to demand an end to the blockade of Gaza and a free Palestine.

Those people now a racist state when they see one.
ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 12:38 PM

There is no serious breakdown of casualties in regard to who are combatants and who are not - only numbers

We have break down by age and gender.
If Israel are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more male than female killed.
If they are lying, you would expect parity.
What do we find Jim?.

If they are telling the truth, you would expect significantly more adults than children.
If they are lying, you would expect more children than adults.
What do we find Jim?

If they are telling the truth you would expect young men to be over-represented.
What do we find Jim?

Re selling arms to Isis, some states did to help to them fight Assad, which you would have approved.
They no longer need to buy arms. They capture more than they are ever likely to need.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 03:19 PM

What the fuck is your point Keith?
The first thing any community does when under attack is to move all women and children out of range of fire - "women and children first"
Men will always be the highest on the casualty list, women and children much lower.
Had it been the other way around you would have been pointed at the cowardly male bastards hiding while the women died.
Had irt been , as you scum are suggesting, that Hamas been using civilians as human shields then women, elderly and children would have made up the greatest numbers.
The fact that so many non combatants have died is due entirely to the indiscriminate nature of the attacks - either that or the Israelis are deliberately targeting them.
To make sure, they have had death squads wiping out survivors
"They no longer need to buy arms. They capture more than they are ever likely to need."
You have been given the facts of the supplying of arms to Isis by the states mentioned (plus Kuwait) -
Throughout this period sales of arms by Britain and America continued and still happen in the case of Kuwait, Qatar and Turkey - so even if those sales stopped tomorrow, the arms Isis have used to get where they have almost certainly came from those States and originally from Britain and America.
As I poited out on the other thread - you are back to defending Britain selling arms to terrorists, just as you did on the Homs thread about selling arms to Assad.
I,m afraid you seem to have another conflict of interest - how do I condemn Isis while at the same time acting as proxy armes supplier to her forces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 04:24 PM

Right Ivor, I guessed you didn't know the definition of "apartheid" and you proved me right with your anti semitic bullshit rant.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 14 - 05:29 PM

The first thing any community does when under attack is to move all women and children out of range of fire

Er, why did the men not also move out of range of fire?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Ivor
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 01:37 AM

I think you have started from a position of support for Israel come what may.

There are many like you but support for your position and support for Israel is dwindling.

I am not suggesting that Israel is suddenly going to change its ways and negotiate fairly with the Palestinians..
The prospect of a two state solution is gone...probably forever.

It is gone because the illegally occupied territories are now settled by hundreds of thousands of armed Zionist settlers and are covered by settler only roads and an apartheid wall.
But the Palestinian people are not going to accept the small separate bantustan areas that apparently seem to be their future under Israeli rule. Bantustans that do not even have access to the outside world .
Israel doesn't want a one state democratic state with guaranteed civil and human rights for all and looks set to continue it's pulverising of garza and it's brutal control of the West Bank for the years ahead.

So it's seems to be vicious attacks every few years and during the intervening periods more heavy controls and intimidation etc.

All this adds up to a ort of process without peace.

The Palestinian resistance won't accept this situation. In garza for example the Palestinian leaders say that with the choice of a quick death by bombing or a slow death by malnutrition or disease they may as well continue fighting.

The child killer Netanyahu thinks he is on a winner but Israel is heading into a militarised racist dead end...with friends like you mr baobab and some rich neo cons in America but with dwindling grassroots support across the world.
Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM

"Er, why did the men not also move out of range of fire?"
Er - because there is nowhere for them to go - that has been the case from the early days and has been stated so by the aid agencies.
Nowhere is really out of range - the hope has been that the U.N. shelters would have offered some form of refuge - not entirely the case, the Israelis have treated refuges, hospitals, clinics, shelters for the elderly.... as legitimate targets - 70 odd schools were destroyed in the first week.
This is indiscriminate bombardment.
If this is your only evidence that Israel "is telling the truth"....
What kind of a moron are you Keith?
There is not a single shred of evidence that the boys and men on the casualty list are in any way combatants - there are no claims that they were carrying arms or are in uniform - unless you are suggesting that the medical staff are taking time off to strip them of weapons and uniforms and find a convenient hiding place.
There are no claims of actually targeting Haas fighters - unless you believe the shit that they are using Gazans as human shields (presumably they are all passively happy to be going to their death by allowing this to happen)
You are defending an atrocity with arguments that appear to have been scribbled on a cigarette packet in a hasty attempt to justify mass-murder.
"I think you have started from a position of support for Israel come what may."
You are obviously a newcomer to all this Ivor - welcome to Keith's "Let's Defend the Atrocity" show
Keith has defended every extremist right wing cause their is, British wartime Fascism, the Sabra/Shatila massacre, selling arms to Assad, ethnic cleansing of Bedouins, Israel's Apartheid state policy, the use of chemical weapons in Gaza - even the persecution of Travellers in Britain.... all grist to Keith's mill.
His "all Muslims are culturally implanted to have underage sex" is one of his prize-winning contributions.
As the man said - "you ain't seen nothing yet".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:02 AM

So Jim, why are males in general and young men in particular over-represented in the casualties, while females and young children under-represented.

It can be explained by believing Israel when it says they only target Hamas but they hide among civilians.
It can be explained if Hamas is just lying again about the status of many casualties as civilian when they are fighters.

They did exactly that on previous incursions.

You are obviously a newcomer to all this Ivor - welcome to Keith's "Let's Defend the Atrocity" show

No. I am just putting Israel's side of the story.
Why does that make you so angry.
Your unquestioning belief of obvious lies only amuses me.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM

"So Jim, why are males in general and young men in particular over-represented in the casualties,"
You have just had your answer - it is obvious you are going to ignore it.
In case you missed it
It is the case in every example of military attack that women and children are given priority "WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST" (ever hear of that one?
In the case of there not being sufficient places of relative safety older boys and men take their chances where they can and invariably bear the brunt of having to do so
Please point out which bit of this is difficulty to understand.
"No. I am just putting Israel's side of the story."
You never put, or even listen to any other side of the story.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 04:40 AM

No-one is turned away from " places of relative safety."

Civilian men would stay with their families.
Fighting men would suffer more casualties than civilians, if Israel is honest about not targeting civilians.
That is why most of the dead are males of fighting age.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 06:45 AM

"Civilian men would stay with their families."
For Christs sake Keith THERE WAS NO FUCKING ROOM FOR THEM TO DO SO - THAT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT FROM THE EARLY DAYS BY THE U.N.
I don't know what king of shit your Israeli masters are feeding you, but it appears to have effected your brain, what there is of it.
You seem to be totally out of control now your favourist toy has been removed from you
Not even Israel has been able to come up with reports of militants being killed in any numbers - none at all, just vacuous claims like tihis one.
And you have to remember, everybody who takes up a stone to defend his wife and family from one of Israel's death squads will be automatically listed as a Hamas fighter - even if he is the local greengrocer.
Give it a rest - you've blown it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 10:40 AM

Not even Israel has been able to come up with reports of militants being killed in any numbers - none at all, just vacuous claims like tihis one.

Yes they have.

"The Israel Defense Forces cannot refute the images of dead women and children that are broadcast abroad, so instead the army is trying to construct a narrative proving that its targets — and the aftermath of its attacks — are legitimate.

The Meir Amit Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center is a vital partner in constructing this narrative. The center, which is checking the name of each Palestinian said killed in the Gaza fighting (it has gotten to 450 so far), estimates that some 46 percent of them are "terrorist operatives." This figure may change in accordance with further investigation.

The center's lists are accompanied by photographs of posters and death notices of some of the militants. Each name is marked "non-involved," "unidentified" or "terrorist operative." The source for the information of each person's "involvement" is not mentioned, apart from operatives whose photograph appears in death notices or public reports of the militant organization to which he belonged"
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.611924

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Hugo
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM

So many of those'terrorist operatives' were aged ten or younger and some were even hiding in the womb.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 03:45 PM

You have posted a link to an unopenable Haaretz link (once again) which is headed;
"As of Thursday, 76.8 percent of the 2,090 fatalities documented by the Gazan human rights organization Mizan have been civilians" - what is the point of your doing this?
This is the figure I have already put up which you are disputing but Haaretz is not.
Your efforts to try to square the circle of Israel's claim that more men than women means the men must all be Hamas seems to have brought on a brainstorm - take your pills
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Aug 14 - 05:17 PM

So many of those'terrorist operatives' were ... hiding in the womb.

As The Lord Protector told us RE: Irish babies: "Nits make lice". This is just the same principle brought down to date.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 04:40 AM

Haaretz put up a pay wall yesterday afternoon.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 06:10 AM

"Haaretz put up a pay wall yesterday afternoon."
So?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 07:22 AM

So, when I put up the link it could be opened.
The opening statement you quoted was challenged in the rest of the piece.
You should have read it when you could.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 14 - 08:23 AM

"You should have read it when you could."
No - you put up the information (not just spurious claims by Israel that I have no access to anyway) - I don't trust isreal's claims and I certainlty don't accept your version of them.
Until you do, this figure remains unchallenged
"As of Thursday, 76.8 percent of the 2,090 fatalities"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 26 Aug 14 - 10:34 AM

BDS Victory Sees 900 Palestinians Out Of A Job

Posted by: Deebo in Deebo August 26, 2014        

We would like to wish the folks of the BDS Movement a hearty congratulations on achieving what is definitely a well-deserved victory in the battle against the occupation.

Unfortunately I am referring to the occupation of the 900+ "West Bank" and "East" Jerusalem Palestinian men and women at the Sodastream factory in Ma'ale Adumim.

That's right. As of 2015, the Sodastream plastics and metals factory in Ma'ale Adumim will be closing its doors and moving to its much larger $40 million facilities near the town of Lahavim in the Negev. This leaves all the previously highly satisfiedPalestinian employees out of a job.

The new plant will still be practicing its equal opportunity hiring policies and will provide employment to the region's Bedouin and African refugee population but this time on uncontested Israeli soil (it's uncontested unless you're a terrorist).

Regardless I'm still willing to bet the haters will still claim they are abusing Bedouins or something. …. … what's that? They already have? (Damn you, Ali A-bomb-a-nation).

Don't get too excited, the decision to move is purely operational, but regardless. BDS. You wanted it? You got it. Unemployed Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM

But Boo- the move has nothing to DO with BDS - as your anonymous Cut-N-Paste makes clear.

Afraid even you can't spin this one.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:40 AM

"as your anonymous Cut-N-Paste makes clear."
"Israellycool - Down Under and Anglo Punditry in the Middle East. Conservative weblog by an Australian and friends, living in Israel"
Real experts in the field of Middle Eastern politics
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 08:21 AM

1984 to 2014 in Israel: GDP per capita from $7K to $38K(above Italy, close to Japan and France), the budget deficit 17% to 3%; defense budget 20% to 6%;currency reserves $3bln to $89bln, exports $10bln to $90bln; high tech exports $1bln to $28bln.R&D 1.3% to 4.2% of GDP,population 4.1 million to 8.2 million,etc

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 10:34 AM

So?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 11:11 AM

Just giving you a hot tip on where to invest your money Greg.....you're welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 11:23 AM

So it WAS just more irrelevant BruceShit, eh Boo?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 14 - 11:47 AM

Did somebody suggest that the Gazan authorities should be spending money feeding its people rather than defending itself against Israeli armed aggression - wonder what made them think that?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Aug 14 - 08:18 PM

I know somebody suggested that Hamas could spend more time digging shelters for their people and less time digging tunnels for attacking Israeli civilians; that Hamas could buy fewer attack rockets and thus have more money for items like food and durable goods for their own economy. That Hamas could refrain from launching their weapons into Israel as first strike weaponry, then either gloat over Israeli deaths, or claim that every dead Palestinian is a female, civilian, or child, which in many cases is true since they used all conditions as cannon fodder around their mobile launch centers.

Meanwhile, the BDS movement is more and more obviously an attempt at defeating Israel by taking any and all routes - civil, military, legal, illegal, and saying Anything that will get them where they want to be - on Israeli territory without being bothered by Jewish citizens.
The only really believable argument on their side is in the Hamas Charter, which has been constant and consistent from Day One. It is concerned with victory, which is a long way from legality and fairness.
BDS can gain traction in one of two ways: Be seen as an istrement demanding fair treatment of all parties, or as an inexorable attempt to pressure Israel with the weight of the world isolating her. But if it tries to do both at the same time it will fracture internally due to perceived inconsistency in its motivations. Are those 'nonaligned' members of the BDS movement truly pressuring for fairness? Or are they useful idiots in the service of aggression by any means?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 09:08 AM

So BDS is a vast international anti-Israel (antisemetic?) conspiracy, bent on the destruction of Israel, Robo? I see you've gone over to the BooBeards.

Are those 'nonaligned' members of the BDS movement truly pressuring for fairness?

Yes.

Or are they useful idiots in the service of aggression by any means?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 10:32 AM

So BDS is a vast international anti-Israel (antisemetic?) conspiracy, bent on the destruction of Israel, Robo?

Yes

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 10:45 AM

Rave on, Boo. Same demented no-evidence bullshit as ever.

Boring.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 10:57 AM

Oh, and Boo- please be sure to let the the Methodist Church, Luxembourg's state pension fund, Norway's YMCA-YWCA, the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, Danske Bank, The Gates Foundation(etc etc), Stephen Hawking, TDesmond Tutu, Theodore Bickel, Zeev Sternhell, Anat Biletzki, Shlomo Sand, Neve Gordon, Oren Yiftachel, A. B. Yehoshua, Amos Oz, David Grossman, and Sami Michael and the thousands of Israeli citizens that SUPPORT BDS that they're all raving anti-semites, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 11:21 AM

Open your eyes and see it for what it is Greg.....fight hatred!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 11:53 AM

Israel have just announced that in the spirit of reaching a mutually agreed peace settlement they are planning to use 1,000 acres of recently seized land on the West Bank to build new Settlements.
God moves in a mysterious way!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 01:00 PM

Open your eyes and see it for what it is Greg.....fight hatred!

Don't tell ME, Boo - tell the Methodist Church, Luxembourg's state pension fund, Norway's YMCA-YWCA, the New Zealand Superannuation Fund, Danske Bank, The Gates Foundation(etc etc), Stephen Hawking, TDesmond Tutu, Theodore Bickel, Zeev Sternhell, Anat Biletzki, Shlomo Sand, Neve Gordon, Oren Yiftachel, A. B. Yehoshua, Amos Oz, David Grossman, and Sami Michael and the thousands of Israeli citizens that SUPPORT BDS & etc.

PARTICULARLY Zeev Sternhell, Anat Biletzki, Shlomo Sand, Neve Gordon, Oren Yiftachel, A. B. Yehoshua, Amos Oz, David Grossman, and Sami Michael (look'em up).

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 01:02 PM

Good to know there's no such thing as "occupied territories", eh Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 03:03 PM

"Good to know there's no such thing as "occupied territories", eh Jim?"
Yup - all a figment of our imagination - must lay off the cooking sherry!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 03:41 PM

During and after the American War of Independence, many Loyalists (to the Crown) left the Colonies and lost their land permanently. Some went back to Mother England, most moved to Canada. They did not (or could not) claim land in the United States as British Territory after the fact.
Displacement is a fact of life. Usually leads to Replacement.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 05:56 PM

'displacement ' is a softer word than ethnic cleansing, particularly in the Indigenous Peoples case.
'Occupied' is becoming politically incorrect.'Disputed' is now in vogue.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 14 - 09:01 PM

Displacement is a fact of life.

So, unfortunately, is genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 11:51 AM

Genocide is currently being practiced in Northern Iraq where there are only ISIS allowed. Yazidi men are killed, their women taken. This is not mere displacement, but death.

Ethnic cleansing might apply to Hamas, due to their noted habit of killing off their own detractors.

Israel is multi-ethnic, and multi-culti. Every colour and shade is free to complain there.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 01:30 PM

"Every colour and shade is free to complain there"
And to be shifted onto the local toxic rubbish dump if you happen to be a Bedouin, or ride in certain buses in certain areas if you are a non-Jew....
Don't you mean Israel is rapidly becoming an Apartheid State and as free as thet word implies?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 01:57 PM

THE INEQUALITY REPORT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 03:27 PM

"Israel have just announced that in the spirit of reaching a mutually agreed peace settlement they are planning to use 1,000 acres of recently seized land on the West Bank to build new Settlements."

Contrary to the narrative in which Jews are portrayed as "stealing" Arab land, Gush Etzion was actually populated and owned by Jews not only prior to 1967 but also prior to Israel's War of Independence. Gush Etzion was a bloc of Jewish settlements that was overrun by Jordanian army units and local Palestinians after a bitterly contested siege. Its inhabitants were either massacred or taken prisoner and their homes and farms destroyed. As such, it was the first land to be reclaimed for Jewish settlement after the 1967 war put it back in Israeli hands.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 05:33 PM

Ah yes: "reclaimed" - that is to say, conquered by military invasion and then occupied.

And now it's been "reclaimed" yet once again by military invasion and occupation.

Jesus wept, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:07 PM

Missed this part did you Greg...."but also prior to Israel's War of Independence."

Jews lived and owned land for generations in what today is called the West Bank. Their land was taken from them by Jordan when they illegally occupied it and expelled all the Jews. Their land was reclaimed in 1967 when Jordan was defeated after they attacked Israel. What do you not understand about that or do you believe that Jews should not be able to live on land they own in the West Bank?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Sep 14 - 06:09 PM

Merciless slaughter in Gaza appalls (Excerpt)
BY GENE LYONS

What's less understood in this country is that Israel has zealots of its own: militant nationalists on Prime Minister Netanyahu's extreme right who believe that the territories he calls "Judea and Samaria" (and the rest of the world calls the West Bank) belong to Jews by divine dispensation, and that the indigenous Palestinians have no rights.

It's to that faction that Netanyahu is speaking when he says, in Hebrew more plainly than in English, "that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the river Jordan."

"That sentence, quite simply," comments David Horowitz in The Times of Israel, "spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state."

In short, not only no peace now, but no peace as long as Netanyahu can prevent it. He may not be so blunt on "Meet the Press," but that's what he's telling his supporters. Israel, after all, has overwhelming military superiority. Why should it risk anything at all for the illusion — as he sees it — of peace?

The New York Times' brilliant columnist Roger Cohen, a South African Jew resident in Europe, has an answer.

A lifelong Zionist, Cohen writes that what he "cannot accept, however, is the perversion of Zionism that has seen the inexorable growth of a Messianic Israeli nationalism claiming all the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River; that has, for almost a half-century now, produced the systematic oppression of another people in the West Bank; that has led to the steady expansion of Israeli settlements on the very West Bank land of any Palestinian state; that isolates moderate Palestinians . . . in the name of divide-and-rule; that pursues policies that will make it impossible to remain a Jewish and democratic state; that seeks tactical advantage rather than the strategic breakthrough of a two-state peace; that blockades Gaza with 1.8 million people locked in its prison and is then surprised by the periodic eruptions of the inmates; and that responds disproportionately to attack in a way that kills hundreds of children."
**

Rest of article Click Here

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 03:56 AM

"Contrary to the narrative in which Jews are portrayed as "stealing" Arab land, Gush Etzion was actually populated"
Your UNLINKED quote comes from the extremist right-wing (fascist) magazine COMMENTARY dedicated to promoting extremist Zionism to the American people.
From its Wiki profile:
"Benjamin Balint describes it as the "Contentious Magazine That Transformed the Jewish Left Into the Neoconservative Right".[2]"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 04:36 AM

Does it contain any errors Jim?
If not, how is the source significant?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 08:42 AM

He can't dispute the facts so he attacks the source. Same old tactic .....yawn.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:11 AM

So Boo- please tell us in detail why what's presented in "The Protocols Of The Elders of Zion" isn't factual.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:14 AM

"So Boo- please tell us in detail why what's presented in "The Protocols Of The Elders of Zion" isn't factual."

Idiot

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:21 AM

RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Israel signs $15 billion gas deal with Jordan

Israel signed a memorandum of understanding with Jordan Wednesday, under which it will supply the Hashemite Kingdom with $15 billion worth of natural gas from its Leviathan energy field over 15 years.

The new deal is the largest collaboration with Jordan to date, and will make Israel its chief supplier, according to the Globes business news website.

Read more: Israel signs $15 billion gas deal with Jordan | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-signs-15-billion-gas-deal-with-jordan/#ixzz3CG5EpXb8

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 10:09 AM

So Boo- I guess you're condemning the source ("Protocols") without debating the facts, then, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 10:11 AM

"So Boo- I guess you're condemning the source ("Protocols") without debating the facts, then, eh?"

Idiot

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 11:58 AM

Thanks for the confirmation that you condemn the source without dealing with the facts, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 12:04 PM

Thanks for the confirmation that you condemn Israel without dealing with the facts, Greggie Boy.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 12:11 PM

Plenty of facts in the Lyons article, BullShot & Boo- want to deal with them, or just fling excrement?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 01:05 PM

So, Greggie,

YOU are claiming that the word of a few people represents ALL Israelis, yet the Charter of Hamas is just a few words we can ignore?

The groups in Lyon's article may well have stated the things that are claimed- in SOME countries, there is a thing called free speech. ( Not in Gaza, however).

So what?


The Hamas CHARTER calls for genocide- AND YOU SUPPORT THAT.

Hamas is the supposedly elected government of Gaza. Not a fringe political group.


"Apparently the world is content to ignore the fact that the Hamas Covenant is, in and of itself, a war crime. (A war crime, not yet a genocide.) Apparently the various moral equivalence explainers are unaware that advocating genocide is a punishable war crime, different only in degree from genocide itself. Indeed the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda convicted the perpetrators of a Rwandan radio station of crimes against humanity just for its broadcasts inciting the murder of the Tutsis as that genocide (yes, genocide) got underway. Though neither party is a signatory to the Rome Statute on Genocide, I wouldn't be opposed to that idiot Jewish advocate of genocide being hauled before the International Criminal Court. As long as the entire leadership of Hamas was there in the dock, too, for advocating genocide in their covenant.

Because of course the entire governing entity of Hamas is prima facie guilty of advocating genocide. But the ignoramuses comparing Israelis to Nazis and Gaza to genocide while ignoring actual ongoing genocide in Syria and Iraq must be seen as an excrescence of the enduring double standard to which Israelis—and Jews—are subjected."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 06:19 PM

So I guess you DO just want to fling excrement instead of addressing the facts in the Lyon piece.

Big surprise, Bullshot

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:23 PM

Bobad wrote:

Israel signed a memorandum of understanding with Jordan Wednesday, under which it will supply the Hashemite Kingdom with $15 billion worth of natural gas from its Leviathan energy field over 15 years.

See, Israel CAN get along with a Palestinian State!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Sep 14 - 09:24 PM

M

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 08:03 AM

"Of the 4,500 rockets fired by Hamas and allies, 875 fell inside Gaza. Many were lobbed at Israeli soldiers during the ground offensive, but others were duds or misfires that landed short, meaning Hamas dropped explosives on its own people.

It is even possible, the intelligence chief said, that some of that fire was intentional."





19.44% hit GAZA- When do we see a BDS against Hamas?

Oh, that's right- A Palestinian civilian killed by an Hamas rocket is ok, like the political killings of those who oppose Hamas. At least according to our resident stooges.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Sep 14 - 09:33 AM

Take your meds, BullShot, like a good boy.