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BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 10:31 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 14 - 11:55 AM
Jack the Sailor 03 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 03:07 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 03:29 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 05:50 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 09:07 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 09:38 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 02:43 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM
Stringsinger 04 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM
GUEST 04 Mar 14 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 01:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 02:58 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 03:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 04:11 PM
GUEST 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 05:12 PM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 05:36 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 06:25 PM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 06:36 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:31 AM

Just back in for a second in great concern!

Really worried!

Really alarmed!





Jim Carroll in imminent danger of










cutting himself severely on his razor-wit!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:40 AM

"I'm out"
In my recollection you've never been in
Jim Carroll

.,,.

I mean, really Jim, is that the best you can do?

How pathetic!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 11:55 AM

"How pathetic!"
My thoughts exactly - though probably not about the same subject
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

You have allowed Keith the moron
Keith, Boo Boo and
I have no compunction in giving my opinion of people like yourself (in fact, I quite enjoy doing so) but I never substitute that for argument.

Please tell us why you do insult people. It doesn't help your credibility. Many people might think it is ranting. It certainly is an expression of contempt.

You you feel that is appropriate in civil conversation. Don't you think it is not only rude to Keith and Bobad, but rude to anyone else who may be reading. I think the oppression of the Palestinian is a serious issue. I think it deserves to be discussed seriously and respectfully. How about you?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM

Patheticer & patheticer.

Poor little Jim.

Still, won't do to mock the afflicted.

Tch! Tch!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.

77% Arab citizens wordwide, or just living in Israel? According to whom? And how was survey done?

Nice job dodging & weaving, by the way, but that still does not address the point of laws on the books vs. laws as enforced or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM

I know it must suck when facts prove you wrong and expose the bigotry of your opinions but it's never too late to become enlightened.

The source of the survey has been posted more than once in the past so I'll leave it to you to make the effort to find it for yourself. I'll give you a hint though - "Coexistence in Israel". And don't forget to post the exact question asked once you find it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:07 PM

Nice job dodging & weaving, by the way,BooBad, but that still does not address the point of laws on the books vs. laws as enforced or not.

More later.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:29 PM

In point of fact, BooBad the survey you claim was done in 2008 by The Kennedy Center(plenty has happened in the last 5 years - got a more recent survey anywhere?) shows only an error message when your link is clicked, and it was posted exactly once by you in 2010. In fairness, you did post the same nonsense multipme times in the sme thread, but only the singlwe source, which has now mysteriously disappeared.

One of the response deserves to be re-visited, viz:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox - PM
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

Thank you Bobad.

That information supports my view exactly.

That the current Israeli administration rides roughshod, not only over residents of Gaza, but also ignores the views of many Israelis, including the views of many Israeli Jews.

It is also my view that the Israeli administration lies to Isrealis and non Israelis alike to justify its actions.


And another:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

Per Bobad:Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Not at all hard to understand - elementary patriotism would explain it - "This is my country - it is where I belong, and I refuse to be driven into exile".

Finally, I would once again recall to your mind U.S. history; this time the Antebellum South, where Negro slaves - a subject population- surveyed by white folks virtually universally claimed to be happy, well cared for, and that Ol' Massa was kindly.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM

RE: "plenty has happened in the last 5 years" above. my mistake.

My mistake. That should be corrected to "plenty has happened in the last 7 to 10 years"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM

Those posts you copied show that the posters didn't read the poll. I guess their research skills are as good as yours which would explain your misinformed opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:50 PM

C'mon Greggie do some work it'll be good practice for you - you might learn how to find information to inform your opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 09:07 PM

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 09:38 PM

It's for your own benefit Greggie, I'm trying to help you learn how to find information so you can have something useful to offer instead of ad hominem insults and name calling. Go ahead and give it a try, you can do it, I know you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:43 AM

Don't suppose for one minute any of the ethnic cleansers among us watched 'Five Broken Cameras' last night.
The residents of a small Palestinian village cut in half by an illegal fence - unarmed protesting villagers opposing armed settlers backed up by the Israeli Army using live rounds, gas grenades and eventually, gas missiles fired from helicopters to suppress the demonstrations.
After three years the villagers won their case in the courts and the fence was declared illegal; the settlers continued building and the soldiers went on protecting for another two years, then, after occupying the new houses that hd been built, they 'concede' removed part of the fence and 'allowed' the villages to return to some of their land.
Mike would have hated it - the settlers burnt olive trees on the land they returned!!!
Israel has become an apartheid state run by uniformed armed thugs - Nazi Germany in the sun.
Carry on ignoring Boo Boo - seig heil!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:10 AM

I found it unbearable, Jim. Tears in my eyes thruout. It was, as you say, the olive trees that carried the symbolic weight of the narrative. Can't yet bring self to say any more about it just now. Maybe later!.

~M~

You have, nevertheless, I would remind you, previously conceded the offensive inappropriateness of the use of the word 'Nazi" in this context. I never expected you'd remember, though. A dyed-in-the-wool member of any racist persuasion, including yours, doesn't change his spots. We both object to Israel's thoroughly obnoxious goings-on; but you in addition are an anti-semite I'm afraid, Jim. To cite yet again that Shaw character's locution: You think you're not, but you are. I remind you once more of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's 2005 statement on this precise manifestation of anti-semitism. Look it up -- and try to get something of it into that thick ☠ of yours!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 AM

The web is carrying numerous articles and comment pieces about the diminishment of AIPAC's influence over the current US administration. Another reason for me to 'fingers crossed' hope that Obama is proceeding successfully towards being a war-free US president worthy of that Nobel Peace Prize. Now if he could only stuff a fecking sock in that pugilistic loud-mouth Kerry's flapping gob!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM

Mike I can appreciate how upsetting your personal change of heart concerning Israel must be. I know a number of people of Jewish descent are challenged and aggrieved by the actions of the state of Israel. It must be the more painful to have cherished an ideal for a homeland for Jewish people for so many decades, only to have it ruined in the face of harsh reality. I think however you are quite the honourable man, to acknowledge your change of heart and the reasoning behind it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:26 AM

Thank you CS. That is greatly appreciated.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM

Sorry Mike - I really did not mean offence to you or anybody.
I came away from the film angry and saddened - tears as well.
The sight of uniformed and armed soldiers backing up an illegal eviction of villagers, even after the court had ruled it illegal still leaves me shaking.
It has become a State set on establishing itself as a singl ethnic one.
It was an ex-head of the Israeli security services who stated on camera last year that what was happening in Israel today was comparable with Nazi Germany (see The Gatekeepers)
I was raised in a family that fully supported the Israeli State; I am glad that those who spent time and energy actually fighting anti-Semitism (my Grandmother was prosecuted for throwing a stone at a Blackshirt at an open-air meeting), didn't live to see what Israel has become.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

A more balanced review of the film.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/5-Broken-Cameras


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM

Another.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/02/18/fairy-tales-wont-bring-peace-five-broken-cameras-and-the-palestinian-farce/


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM

The Jerusalem Post - my apologies?
The film must have been a load of shit in that case.
All the points in the German paper were fully covered by the film itself
The film was not about Palestine - it was about the effects of an apartheid ethnic cleansing policy has on ordinary human beings.
One of the most telling moments was the mistrust shown towards Palestinian politicians who muscled in on the press interviews.
You can dredge up any dissenting reviews you wish - the film said it all
It is a superbly honest film and has been recognised as such with world-wide acclaim

"5 Broken Cameras" has been screened at a number of film festivals and won the award for best Israeli documentary at the 2012 Jerusalem Film Festival. It also took the prize for best documentary directing in the World Cinema category at the Sundance Film Festival.
It was nominated for an Academy Award in the documentary feature category this year, but lost to "Searching for Sugarman.""
Take your ethnic cleansing apologisms elsewhere you deplorable toe-rag.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

No Israeli view may be heard?
What are you afraid of hearing Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM

The use of the term "anti-semite" is an epithet used by those who are neither Jewish or knowledgeable about what the term means; Arabs are a Semitic tribe and hence any anti-Arab reference could be classified as "anti-Semitic". At one point in Israeli history, Palestinians and Israeli's cooperated in the growing and distribution of the Joffa oranges acknowledged by the world. Then Zionism took root and bullied the Palestinians, cutting off their contributions to the Israeli State.

The corollary to the Zionism of Israel is the "Manifest Destiny" in the United States responsible for the genocide of the Native American, an ungrateful act in that the Native Americans showed the "invaders" how to employ agricultural farming techniques for their survival.

The hurling of the stupid "anti-semite" accusation belies the low level of intelligence of those who use it, those who would call people "communists" or "terrorists" without remorse and showing self-righteous hypocrisy as persecutors themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

From the Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.
    Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

Stringsinger: Don't be so disingenuous, it's beneath you. You know perfectly well that the term 'antisemitism' doesn't subsume animosity towards Arabs, whatever pedanticisms as to their ethnicity might be adduced.

Jim: Thank you for your moderate response to my perhaps overstated animadversions. But the hackles cannot be restrained from rising at that o-so-tempting but facile & best-resisted 'Nazi' comparison, which is, as above-cited protocols state, one of the generally regarded as infallible litmus tests for the presence of that virus. [My science is as confused as my metaphors; but you know what I mean!]

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM

No apology needed Mike - it was a knee-jerk reaction on my part to revert to old habits.
I apologise in advance if it should happen again, which is quite possible if Keith keeps up his deplorable behaviour.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM

"I am glad that those who spent time and energy actually fighting anti-Semitism (my Grandmother was prosecuted for throwing a stone at a Blackshirt at an open-air meeting), didn't live to see what Israel has become.
Jim Carroll"
.,,.
Something we can share there, Jim. I'm glad my grandmother didn't either.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM

It's for your own benefit Greggie, & etc.

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

Deplorable behaviour!?

I just linked to an Israeli review, and a Jewish American review.
What is to deplore?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 12:37 PM

MgM, what I know of the term anti-semitism is that it is used as a catch-all to justify a reaction toward those who do not agree with Israeli policies regarding the subjugation of Palestinians and this accusation in itself is disingenuous and makes a mockery of the "holocaust".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 01:08 PM

"Deplorable behaviour!?"
sorry - didn't give the full sentence - long term, intensive and dishonest behaviour
Yes - the Israelis do have a right to be listened to - the same rights afforded to any criminal in the dock - on the understanding that their past record will be taken into consideration.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel. "

Holding all Jews responsible is anti-Jewish (I use that word out of deference to Frank's opinion on the word "anti-semitic")

But it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish.

We can argue semitic semantics until the cows come home. The fact remains that the self described Jewish State kills people for land.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

GUEST ~~ I in no way deny that it can indeed be a catch-all defence. I hold no brief for such an attitude. There are certain most justifiable criticisms of Israel to be made, and a great deal [far too much, indeed] in its conduct to deplore.

But this is in no way excludes the strong possibility that much of such criticism is principally a cover for antisemitism nevertheless ~~ a 'respectable' way in which such racist views may be disguised for acceptability. The Protocols cited nine posts back at 09.08 can be of much assistance in recognising this distinction.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:58 PM

On learning about Semitic races, I now tend to find the phrase "anti-Semitic" to be a somewhat divisive and obfuscatory creation, though I will use it where precedent demands.

I realise that it has *become* the term meaning "anti-Jewish" but nevertheless I think - considering the word Semite applies to a much broader race of people other than those of the Jewish religion - it would be preferable if it hadn't been adopted, and I also think it would be better if phased out.

I also think intentionally provocative analogues with Nazi Germany are unhelpful, as they can only generate greater intransigence and reaction from those who will be inflamed by such a comparison. A better contemporary equivalence would be South Africa IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:08 PM

But it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish.


Not at all - there are plenty of millenial "Christians"[sic] especially in the U.S. as well as self-serving U.S. politicians who are partly responsible.

And people with Bobad's outlook and viewpoint are also partly responsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM

Greg the Christian Zionists support Israel but I believe they don't give the orders to oppress and kill and they don't drive the tanks and bulldozers.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:39 PM

The US has politically intervened via a veto, every time a NATO resolution tried to control the Israeli land grab. The US is every bit as implicated in each settlement as Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM

My last post: Responding to "it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:11 PM

"And people with Bobad's outlook and viewpoint are also partly responsible."

Now you're really losing it - please seek help for your own good.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 PM

the Christian Zionists support Israel but I believe they don't give the orders to oppress and kill and they don't drive the tanks and bulldozers.

Not directly, but they DO support, enable and finance those who give the orders to oppress and kill and drive the tanks and bulldozers.

Thus they are culpable.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:12 PM

Now you're really losing it - please seek help for your own good.

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM

Insecurity - The need to insult others in order to feel good about yourself


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:36 PM

Culpable? Yeah, Enablers? yes. Aiders and abettors? Uh huh.

Responsible? No. Not as I meant it anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM

So how do you define "responsibility", Jack?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:25 PM

Insecurity - The need to insult others in order to feel good about yourself

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:36 PM

"but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" "

Yes I have - more than once - you just don't want to do the legwork to find it (as expected) and I'm not going to do it for you but I'll give you another tip though - GOOGLE (it's a search engine) - that's all I'm going to say - have at it and don't forget to post the exact question asked in the survey when you find it.

Oh and I'm an understanding kind of guy so if you need any help with your "problem" I'm all ears - here to help without prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM

So how do you define "responsibility", Jack?

The people who give the orders and the people who carry them out.


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