BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

…"Leading experts, including Richard Goldstone, a former justice of the South African Constitutional Court who led the United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict of 2008 and 2009, have argued that comparisons between the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and "apartheid" are offensive and wrong.

"One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues 'apartheid' policies," Goldstone wrote in The New York Times in 2011. "It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations."

In a 2008 interview with Jeffrey Goldberg, then-Sen. Barack Obama shot down the notion that the word "apartheid" was acceptable in a discussion about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians:

"There's no doubt that Israel and the Palestinians have tough issues to work out to get to the goal of two states living side by side in peace and security, but injecting a term like apartheid into the discussion doesn't advance that goal," Obama said. "It's emotionally loaded, historically inaccurate, and it's not what I believe.":

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-warns-israeli-apartheid-231200692--politics.html

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

Israeli apartheid

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM

So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?


That was 1923- and the Arab Muslims got sole rights to 76+ percent of the Mandate Palestine territory as their "Muslim Homeland" NO Jews allowed.

The remainder was to be the "Jewish Homeland"





Are you saying the Israel should be held to the same standard as the Arabs Muslims have been, or not?

If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:26 AM

So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?


Ah jaysus, BB- not that old canard again. Don'y you ever tire of straw men and putting words in other prople's mouths?

Raymond J. Learsy? I'm sure that the opinion of a a former Wall Street commodities trader is certainly an "expert" one on the Middle East and Israel. Not.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM

GregF,



How is it a canard?

As usual, you make an unsupported comment that is in conflict with the facts.

That is a lie- which is your field of expertise.


Do YOU hold Israel to the same standards as you do the Arab nations? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

"If you have followed other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads]"
You persist in ignoring the fact that this comparison was made by one of the former heads of the Israeli Secret Service in the documentary, "The Gatekeepers" - an Israeli patriot - horse's mouth, so to speak.
I desisted from making that comparison in respect of your feelings the description - I no longer feel it necessary to do so as your hypocrisy as destroyed any respect I might once have had.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM

GregF,

Care to tell me of ANY borders accepted by the Arab nations AFTER the 1923 set?

If my comment is a canard, you can supply them- if not, you are being your usual scumbag lying self.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 02:54 PM

your usual scumbag lying self.

I love you too, BullshitBruce.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:01 PM

GregF,

YOU have never provided anything other than your statements that I have ever presented bullshit.

I have presented multiple thread posts by you showing you are a lying scumbag.


Waiting for your statement of what borders the Arab nations have recognized after 1923.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:40 AM

"So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?"

I think the 1967 borders would be adequate as suggested by Palestinians.

Peace talks could be negotiated if there wasn't a highly orchestrated military occupation of Palestinians. No one has shown me evidence to the contrary that makes any sense at all.

The trouble is that Israeli theocracy runs counter to Arab theocracy and at the root of the problem is a "holy war". Many people wish to deny this because they place so much importance in their "belief" systems.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:59 AM

The pre attack ( i.e., 1948 borders that were the result of a war) or the post attack ( 1967 borders that were the result of a war) borders?


And why should we NOT use the 1923 borders?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 05:52 PM

Lets go back to the 1099 borders, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:23 AM

The "Palestinians" did not accept the 1967 borders in 1967.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM

OK, you don't like the 1099 borders. How about the 1149 borders, then?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM

If you don't like the past borders, why not just accept the PRESENT ones?????


ANd the Israelis can treat the Palestinians JUST like the Arabs treated the Jews in the West Bank in 1948, since you approve of the way the Arabs ave treated the Palestinians so much.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

the Israelis can treat the Palestinians JUST like the Arabs treated the Jews in the West Bank in 1948

But Mommy, Mommy! Johnny does it! Why Can't I ???!!!
[ NB: see Piaget's preoperational stage ]

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM

So, GregF,

You will continue to hold Israel to a set of standards that you will not allow to be applied to the Arab nations???

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM

See post 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AMBBruce- with particular attention to Piaget.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM

GregF,

If you cannot address the topic, or give a reasonable reply to posts, you will ( continue to) be only a waste of time.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 01:55 PM

Again:

If you object to 1923 borders because they are "old", why not start with TODAY's border instead of demanding that negotiations start with the pre-1967 borders?

Why is Israel being held to standards that the Arab nations are not held to?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:26 PM

Greg: Where, please, do you perceive 'genetic epistemology' coming into it?

Genuinely curious.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM

Only in ther sense of cognitive structures, and which level BBruce has apparently reached.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

Ah. Piaget always seems to me like most of Gallic philosophising* -- pompous asseverations of the obvious, with much pompous & portentous obfuscating vocabulary, and a faintly comic air of astoundingly complex conceptualisation having been laboriously uncovered.


~M~

*Most philosophy, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:55 PM

Did you mean to describe Piaget or Bruce?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:17 PM

What peace process?

It seems that Israel doesn't even want to accept "today's" borders.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:04 PM

Israeli spying on US at 'alarming level'
AFP May 7, 2014

The main targets for Israeli spies are US industrial and technical secrets, according to a report in Newsweek magazine

Washington (AFP) - Israel spies on the United States more than any other ally does and these activities have reached an alarming level, Newsweek magazine reported on Tuesday.

The main targets are US industrial and technical secrets, the weekly said, quoting classified briefings on legislation that would make it easier for Israeli citizens to get visas to enter America.

Newsweek said a congressional staffer familiar with a briefing last January called the testimony "very sobering ... alarming ... even terrifying", and quoted another as saying the behavior was "damaging."

"No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do," said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, according to Newsweek.

"I don't think anyone was surprised by these revelations," the former aide was quoted as saying. "But when you step back and hear ... that there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes, it is quite shocking."

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:29 PM

"Officials said the internal review turned up NSA monitoring of some 35 world leaders, in the U.S. government's first public acknowledgment that it tapped the phones of world leaders. European leaders have joined international outrage over revelations of U.S. surveillance of Ms. Merkel's phone and of NSA's monitoring of telephone call data in France."

Spy vs. spy

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:09 PM

OK, BooBad - you're back to the toddler's defense: But Mommy - billy did it too!

See 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:28 PM

Or are you just singling out Israel Greggie because.........well we can guess why.

Industrial espionage

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:34 PM

Well BooBad - because I'm an anti-semite, of course.

More the usualI see - we've been through your & BSBruce's Mommy! MOMMY! nonsense before. Many times. Its boring- and its still bullshit.

Now, about that Israeli spying..............

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:39 PM

Oh, and BooBad- for your benefit, once again:

"No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do," said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, according to Newsweek.

"I don't think anyone was surprised by these revelations," the former aide was quoted as saying. "But when you step back and hear ... that there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes, it is quite shocking."

Its hardly ME that's "singling out Israel" -

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:14 PM

"(Reuters) - The U.S. National Security Agency is involved in industrial espionage and will grab any intelligence it can get its hands on regardless of its value to national security, former NSA contractor Edward Snowden told a German TV network."


Snowden says NSA engages in industrial espionage

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:21 PM

All industrialized countries that can get away with it do it but when the Jews do it well then that becomes worthy of a Greggie post.....of course it would.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:44 AM

but when the Jews do it well then that becomes worthy of a Greggie post

Sorry, BooBad.

1. "The Jews" aren't "doing it", as many have pointed out before me, you bigoted fool. The Israeli government is.

2. It isn't a "Greggie Post" - its a news story all over the various media outlets. Which story you apparently would like supressed.

3. Once again, with the toddler's defense: But MOMMY! - Billy did it FIRST! Come back when you have advanced beyond the mental age of two.

4. And again: No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do...........there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes

I know you dwell in a fact-free environment, but DO try to pay attention.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:01 AM

"4. And again: No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do...........there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes"

But MOMMY the Jews are better at it than anyone else.......that's not fair....waaah!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 14 - 10:11 AM

But MOMMY the Jews are better at it than anyone else.......that's not fair....waaah!

You really ARE an idiot, ain'tcha, BooBoo?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 11:50 AM

Israel isn't, and will never be, an apartheid state

Outside of the West Bank, in Jerusalem and elsewhere in Israel, Jews and Arabs mix freely and increasingly live in the same neighborhoods. Arabs serve in Israel's parliament, in its army and on its Supreme Court. And though discrimination in Israel , as in America, remains a scourge, there is no imposed segregation. Go to any Israeli mall, any restaurant or hospital, and you will see Arabs and Jews interacting.

This reality has not prevented Israel's enemies from branding it with the apartheid label. They do so not to achieve a better peace arrangement with Israel but to isolate it internationally and to eliminate it through sanctions. We Jews remember how each attempt to obliterate us, whether in the Inquisition or during the Holocaust, was preceded by a campaign to delegitimize us. People who practice apartheid are easily considered illegitimate.

Israel is not an apartheid state and will not become one, even if the Palestinians continue to reject peace. However unwittingly, those who associate apartheid with Israel are aiding the third and perhaps ultimate stage in the effort to destroy the nation. They are also committing a grave injustice to the millions of American and South African blacks who were the victims of true apartheid.

LA Times

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:14 PM

Whoops
ISRAEL IS ALREADY AN APARTHEID STATE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:48 PM

Why "Whoops", Jim? Two articles taking diametrically opposed views on a matter of definition, and how far the facts support the chosen definition of each author, is scarcely so convincing a proof that the second one, contradicting the first, must so definitively carry the argument to a triumphant conclusion, as to merit a "Whoops" to imply that the one who cited the first has been absolutely put in his place and left without a leg to stand on by the demonstrably unchallengeable factual and intellectual superiority of his interlocutor. Do better to fight it out with custard-pies at 20 paces than to imagine that you have overwhelmingly demolished anyone's argument simply by exclaiming "Whoops"!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:59 PM

Israel isn't, and will never be, an apartheid state

Yep, BooBad, Michael Scott Bornstein, former IDF paratrooper, member of the Zionist underground and a guy that strongly condemned the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict report, which determined Israel was guilty of possible war crimes.

You DO know what "Op-Ed" means, I take it? And what would one EXPeCT his viewpoint to be?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 01:29 PM

He does back up his opinion with facts so why don't you discuss those instead of trying to delegitimize him because he's a Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 02:05 PM

...because he's a Jew.

Now, there ya go again with the anti-semitic name calling. Doesn't it ever get boring, BooBad, or at least tiring?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 14 - 02:44 PM

"Why "Whoops", Jim?"
You appear to be making a meal out of a crumb Mike
The "whoops" was for my own error of inadvertently sending a blank message, which seems to have been immediately spotted and removed by a passing forum fairy - nothing more.
All that remains is to choose between the two statements, whether to accept the word of a Zionist extremist and suspected war criminal when he says "wot, us? We didn't do it guv", or a human rights group (including many Jews) who express a widely held opinion that they definitely did - now let me see - eeny, meeny....
Interesting to see that little Boo-Boo is still holding "the Jews" responsible for all the Israeli regime's crimes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 May 14 - 03:06 PM

Ah -- sorry, Jim. (in fact, "Whoops!"). Misunderstood your Whoops; but am sure you can see why.

Apart from that; take your points, as you know. Though I don't think it's altogether the same sort of 'apartheid' as that from which the term derives, so that the word is perhaps just a bit emotive to match the strict actuality, it is indeed a far from ideal situation for any of the parties, however one may define it.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 04:24 PM

So Greg, still unwilling to discuss the facts with which he supports his opinion - I can understand why.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 04:39 PM

Oh, and by the way, in listing what you consider to be the author's nefarious pro Israel activities you neglected to mention these: Israel's ambassador to the United States from 2009 to 2013, a senior fellow in international diplomacy at the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya and a fellow at the Atlantic Council.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 05:14 PM

I can understand why.

Why thanks, Boo! You DO realize the futility of my trying to teach a pig to sing!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 05:38 PM

Thanks Greg, your posts never fail to make me laugh, honestly, you always give me a good chuckle.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 14 - 05:01 AM

"It seems that Israel doesn't even want to accept "today's" borders." - Stringsinger

As the Arabs of Palestine rejected the two-state solution offered them by the UN in 1947 and opted for war instead, then the only officially demarcated and recognised borders of Palestine are those established in 1923. Under the terms of the original mandate the Jews could settle anywhere inside those borders, they could not settle anywhere east of the Jordan river.

When the Arabs of Palestine and all their Arab neighbours attacked the newly founded State of Israel in 1948, Egypt attacked, invaded and occupied Palestinian territory in Gaza, they illegally continued to hold this territory until 1967 when Israeli forces drove the Egyptians out and reclaimed Gaza and reunited it with the rest of the original mandated territory of Palestine.

In the same way the Jordanians attacked, invaded and occupied the Palestinian territories now commonly known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They too held this territory illegally until 1967 when Israeli forces liberated them from the Jordanian troops occupying them.

Ever asked what borders the Arabs of Palestine are prepared to honour and recognise? Let me see now:

1: Borders were "established" in 1949 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the second time by the Arabs of Palestine

2: Borders were "established" again in 1956 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the third time by the Arabs of Palestine

3: Slightly different borders were "established" in 1967 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the forth time by the Arabs of Palestine

4: Same borders as for 1967 were "established" in 1973 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the fifth time by the Arabs of Palestine - Israel starts process of bi-lateral peace talks trading land for peace with Egypt and Jordan

5: Borders proposed in 2000 at Camp David at a summit held involving Clinton, Arafat and Barak. Agreement almost reached - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the sixth time by the Representative of the Arabs of Palestine

OK then Stringsinger how many more times? How many more opportunities do you want to give the Arabs of Palestine to reject the two-state solution they seem to have conned you into believing that they want?

1947 to 2014 - I make that just over 67 years that both sides have had to sort this out. Over the course of those 67 years the Arabs of Palestine have consistently opted for armed conflict. So be it, the next time it kicks off nobody should step in to stop it until either one side or the other has "won" whatever it is that they think they will "win" - but whatever the case the rest of the world will have done with it.

Fact is that over the course of the last 67 years had all the aid that has been thrown at "The Palestinians" been put to good use Gaza should resemble Monaco in terms of wealth and prosperity - it is a shit hole because the leaders of the Arabs of Palestine chose to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 14 - 08:35 AM

Cast not your pearls Teribus, Stringsinger et al's views are not informed by facts, as is glaringly obvious.