BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:28 AM

... and I am not trying here to 'justify' anything. The mere adducement of the possibility which you agree exists, seems to me sufficient refutation, or at least querying, of Steve's point.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 04:59 AM

"You know well my views on the matter,"
I sometimes think I do and respect it, but to blows too hot and cold for me to be sure.
That there are Antisemites crawling out of the woodwork to take advantage pf what is happening is undeniable, but it really doesn't help to equate criticism of Israeli policy and such, in fact it feeds the monster.
Unfortunately, now Israeli behaviour has gone ballistic, this has become the mainstay of their response.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:18 AM

BBC on Gaza casualty figures.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties."

Spokesman Capt Eytan Buchman told BBC News that "the UN numbers being reported are, by and by large, based on the Gaza health ministry, a Hamas-run organisation".

He said that part of the reason for the discrepancy between the figures was "when militants are brought to hospitals, they are brought in civilian clothing, obscuring terrorist affiliations".

"Hamas also has given local residents directives to obscure militant identities," he said.

"It's important to bear in mind that in Operation Cast Lead [the last Israeli ground offensive in December 2008-January 2009], Hamas and Gaza-based organisations claimed that only 50 combatants were killed, admitting years later the number was between 600-700, a figure nearly identical to the figure claimed by the IDF."

It should be said that while Hamas said only 50 fighters had been killed in 2008-09, some human rights groups operating in Gaza were reporting considerably higher figures.

The point is that it is hard to say with certainty at this stage how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters. This is in no sense the fault of the UN employees collecting the figures - their statistics are accompanied by caveats and described as preliminary and subject to revision.

But it does mean that some of the conclusions being drawn from them may be premature.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 11:39 AM

Not that you were drawing conclusions even before the first blood of this particular episode eh Keith?

Quoting an Israeli militant may be good for the BBC balance in the story, but just quoting their disputed statistics and propaganda on these threads without the rest of the BBC story is disingenuous cherry picking.

If you saw your neighbour's house reduced to rubble and you had the opportunity to try and make sure yours wasn't next, would you be classed as a fighter? Even if you weren't at the beginning of the conflict?

As Steve said, you can walk West to East in an hour and a half in places. Now that Israeli terrorists have made the whole place uninhabitable, I doubt you can distinguish between combatants and civilians. This isn't about politics, culture or land now, it's about living or dying full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:12 PM

I gave the link so you could read it all, for instance this bit,

"Matthias Behnk, from OHCHR, told BBC News that the organisation would not want to speculate about why there had been so many adult male casualties, adding that because they were having to deal with a lot of casualties in a short time, they had "focused primarily on recording the casualties".

"As such, we have not at this stage conducted a detailed analysis of trends of civilian casualties, for example in relation to the reasons why different groups are affected and the types of incidents, but hope to carry this out at some point in the coming future," he said.

"However, even in the compiling of these preliminary figures, we cross-verify between different sources, not only media and several different human rights organisations, but also use other sources, including, for example, names of alleged fighters released by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and notices by armed groups in Gaza claiming someone as a member."

A number of other news organisations have been considering the civilian-to-fighter ratio.

An analysis by the New York Times looked at the names of 1,431 casualties and found that "the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll. They are 9% of Gaza's 1.7 million residents, but 34% of those killed whose ages were provided."

"At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71% of the population and 33% of the known-age casualties." "

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:18 PM

the population most likely to be militants

You're joking, right FKWT?

Apparently this bogus statistical bullshit means something to you?

Something like "most likely to be" = "Are"?

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:23 PM

I believe Anthony Reuben, Head of statistics BBC News, even over you Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:27 PM

Jesus wept at Greggie's ignorance.


MAYBE if one realizes that:

Hamas HAS lied in the past.
The statistics do not support what Hamas claims.
EVERYTHING that Israel says does not HAVE to be a lie.
Hamas gets a benefit from killing Palestinians civilians.
Israel does NOT get a benefit from killing Palestinian civilians.

One MIGHT realize that the claims of Hamas require some verification, at LEAST as much as one demands from Israel, before being accepted and presented as facts.



That is if one used the same rules for Palestinians and Israelis- instead of showing anti-semitism by the EU definition, as the three stooges insist upon doing.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:49 PM

"nstead of showing anti-semitism by the EU definition, as the three stooges insist upon doing"
Did you reply about the domestic abuse incident?
Jim carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:52 PM

Its not about "belief", FKWT - as usual, this one went right over your head.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:53 PM

Jimmy boy,

I have no evidence about your domestic abuse.

Why would I even care who you were abusing now?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

Greggie boy,

It is about FACTS.

You have presented NONE.

YOU have repeated Hamas claims that are NOT supported by facts.

YOU are the one basing your claims on FAITH.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:00 PM

YOU have repeated Hamas claims that are NOT supported by facts.

Where, exactly, Bullshot? Can you cite an instance or two?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:03 PM

What, Greggie?



ALL those lies you post are of your very own making???

I would NEVER have thought you could show such originality.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:23 PM

I knew you couldn't back up your bullshit, Bullshot, but thanks for confirming it nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:24 PM

And thank YOU for confirming that ALL of your posts have been lies.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:29 PM

And thank YOU for confirming that ALL of your posts have been lies.

You're hallucinating again, Bullshot. Adjust your meds.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:36 PM

Israel has been hiding behind the "Antisemitism" argument to offset its ongoing terrorist activity.
It used the argument of "defence" to slaughter as many people they have, when it was little more than a revenge killing.
They have used the excuse of "human shields" in order to justify the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians and the destruction of homes, schools hospitals public buildings, water and electricity supplies... turning much of Gaza into a bomb site.
They and their squalid bunch of supporters are now quibbling over exactly how many they have slaughtered, how old they were and whether they were resistance fighters or civilians
All sides exaggerate and lie in wartime - Israel is as guilty of this as anybody else and is far better equipped to do it than most.
CASUALTIES OF THE GAZAN WAR - 2008 -09
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:46 PM

Jimmy boy,

Be careful what you post:

FROM YOUR CLICKY

"It was reported that Hamas fighters had been ordered not to wear military uniforms during the fighting.
That is a WAR CRIME that Hamas has yet to be held accountable for.

[15][16] Israeli-Arab journalist Khaled Abu Toameh wrote in The Jerusalem Post that this practice led to the over-counting of civilian casualties and under-counting Hamas military casualties, as Palestinian casualties arrived at hospitals without weapons or any other signs revealing they were actually fighters"

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:50 PM

A collection of all the Tweets that Kenneth Roth, the rabidly anti-Israel head of Human Rights Watch, who said he isn't certain why young men seem to be "over-represented" among the dead in Gaza: it's "unclear if Hamas won't acknowledge fighters or Israel targets young men."

Several on Twitter stepped up to help clear up the confusion.

    @AviMayer @hrw @KenRoth Couldn't be bc.the young men are the Hamas fighters, right?? Oh wait, all Gazans are innocent civilians - I forgot
    —
    Lana (@Filala) August 09, 2014

    Give us an educated guess Ken. @KenRoth http://t.co/jEyr6zDfoT—
    Gil Lavi (@GilLavi) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth Yes, Israel targets young men with guns and rocket launchers.—
    Ofer Lando (@Ofernicus) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth wow. Record breaking pathetic tweet—
    Gil Eyal (@gileyal) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth bc u know those incidious Jews have special weapons that only target males #dumbass—
    Independent Patriot (@LibertysSpirit) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth so just to clarify, it is your suspicion that during combat, Israeli soldiers want to kill innocent bystanders, but only male?—
    Gil Eyal (@gileyal) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth That's massively unintelligent, even for you.—
    Oren Kessler (@OrenKessler) August 09, 2014

    @MiraWard375 @OrenKessler @dorothyofisrael @BenWeinthal @KenRoth It is pretty obvious they target young men with weapons.—
    NeoCon_Lbrtarian (@RachaelMadCow) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth @OrenKessler "or Israel targets young men" — using their famous age-distinguishing smart bombs, no doubt—
    Gary Weiss (@gary_weiss) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth lol. you're a parody of your already parodic self. impressive. and in public no less.—
    Richard Landes (@richard_landes) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth obvious to anyone with an understanding of the way terror cells work. Vast proportion = Hamas fighters. They got their wish. Death—
      (@Laurence0802) August 09, 2014

    .@KenRoth It certainly targets young men. Those who are members of Hamas or other militant factions.—
      (@neontaster) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth Oh, I get it. You're upset they're not targeting old men and women who are Hamas fighters. Makes sense.—
    Gary Weiss (@gary_weiss) August 09, 2014

    @KenRoth Of course! That's why Israel requested the latest in young men seeking missiles! #twat—
    John Pendlebury (@John_Pendlebury) August 09, 2014

    Of course that age group is highly representative of casualtiesThat is the age of the males that ARE Hamas fighters @AviMayer @hrw @KenRoth—
    IHazClawzSee? (@meankitteh1) August 09, 2014

    .@HRW's @KenRoth thinks Israel might be "target[ing] young men." Probably something about Axe body spray. "Unclear." twitter.com/KenRoth/status…—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    @AviMayer @hrw @KenRoth Gosh do confusing. "Young men" in civilian clothes, with rocket burns on their hands. Must be civilians. Must be.—
    J A Hiker (@JHiker711) August 09, 2014

    The absolute, proven certainty that Hamas lies vs. a laughable smear alleging Israel "targets young men." @KenRoth: twitter.com/KenRoth/status…—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    Reminder, @KenRoth: Hamas first said 49 of its men were killed in Cast Lead, later admitting the number was 600-700 – bit.ly/1yhDCAD—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    Another reminder, @KenRoth: Ridiculous statements like this ( twitter.com/KenRoth/status…) only strengthen the perception that @HRW is a joke.—
    Avi Mayer (@AviMayer) August 09, 2014

    It's worse than a joke. Under @KenRoth, @hrw is the useful idiot, accepting terrorists' lies & undermining enlightened democracies @AviMayer—
    Jon Levin (@JNLevin) August 09, 2014

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 01:58 PM

Jim, do you have any examples of Israel lying?
On previous incursions their assessment of the casualties proved true and Hamas shown to have lied.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:00 PM

So now Kenneth Roth, whose Jewish father lived under Nazi rule, is an anti-Semite.

Boo, its hard to say who is the most deranged - you or Bullshot.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:04 PM

They and their squalid bunch of supporters are now quibbling over exactly how many they have slaughtered, how old they were and whether they were resistance fighters or civilians

You again claim that IDF kill civilians indiscriminately.
If that were true I would be with you in your outrage.
If some of the "civilian" dead are indeed Hamas fighters, you gullible dupes are naively believing propaganda lies again.

Do you not want to know, "how old they were and whether they were resistance fighters or civilians" ?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:05 PM

Greggie,

srael and Palestine

Kenneth Roth has been criticized by the Jerusalem-based NGO Monitor for allegedly being biased against Israel. Gerald M. Steinberg has been a long-time critic of Roth's role as head of Human Rights Watch from 1993. Writing in a 2004 Jerusalem Post article[28] in response to Roth's op-ed in which Roth accused NGO Monitor of disregarding basic facts, "fictitious allegations of bias" and a "fantasy-based discourse" which "does a deep disservice to Israel",[29]

In August 2006, during the war between Hezbollah and Israel, Roth rejected criticism of HRW's allegations against Israel, writing in a letter to the editor of the The New York Sun: "An eye for an eye — or, more accurately in this case, twenty eyes for an eye — may have been the morality of some more primitive moment. But it is not the morality of international humanitarian law which Mr. Bell pretends to apply." [30] In response, the head of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) referred to Roth's rhetoric as a reflection of "classic anti-Semitic stereotype about Jews".[31]

In reaction to Richard Goldstone's recantation of the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict report, HRW Founder Robert Bernstein said to the Jerusalem Post in April 2011, referring to Roth, that it "is time for him to follow Judge Goldstone's example and issue his own mea culpa."[32]

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:07 PM

I do.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:12 PM

"Under Roth's leadership, Human Rights Watch has been criticized for perceived biases.[20]"


I even found a source that the stooges will have to believe!

"It is a politicised report lacking objectivity and impartiality".
-The Hamas information ministry, Aljazeera.net, August 13, 2009.
(In response to the report, Rockets from Gaza)



So if HAMAS thinks he is biased…

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:12 PM

So, Bullshot, Roth is an "anti-Semite" because: (True or False)

1. Gerald Steinberg and his pro-Israel lobbying group say so.
2. He has criticized actions of the Government of Israel.
3. You and Boo say so.
4. The ADL/JDL pro-Israel lobbying group says so.

Circle the correct answer:

a. 1
b. 2
c. 3
d. 4
e. All of the above
f. None of the above.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:15 PM

Netanjahu & co need Hamas in order to justify their policies just as Hamas needs Netanjahu & co to justify their actions. If Hamas were to hand out prizes for services to recruitment, Netanjahu and the Israeli government would win hands down every time. Some Likud Knesset members are on record as wanting to deport the population of Gaza to Egypt.

As the israeli writer Meir Shalev wrote in a recent essay, Netanjahu misuses/abuses the shoah for his own ends. Furthermore, according to Shalev, Netanjahu suffers from a short-sightedness for which there is no medical definition: he is unable to see further than a week..........Shalev also writes that the commander of the Givati brigade(IDF) gave his troops a little 'morale booster' before they went into Gaza. This was nothing more than extreme religious fundamentalism, referring to Hamas in terms like 'blasphemous enemy' and, in effect, he was sending his troops on a little jihad into Gaza. This, apparently, did not go down well with a lot of Israelis. Also according to Shalev, the messianic, extreme right in Israel are on the verge of becoming something that earlier would have been unthinkable, a jewish neonazi party.

Some people here might like to use their fantasy, assuming they have any, and ask themselves how they would behave living under military occuptaion for 47 years, seeing their land stolen, having to survive behind a blockade and having nothing left to loose etc. etc. Don't such people have a moral right to resistance against the occupying power?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:17 PM

Greggie boy,

How about

"Because he applies a different standard to Israel than he does to the rest of the world."


THAT is in the EU definition of anti-semitism.




Oh, I forgot- YOU don't like to deal with facts...

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 02:35 PM

And since you like him, here is what he says about your dear friends in Hamas.

http://www.hrw.org/node/82366


Or is it you only agree when he attacks Israel?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:15 PM

Hear, hear, Lynn.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 05:16 PM

Bullshot, its past your bedtime. Go beddie-bye.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM

Don't such people have a moral right to resistance against the occupying power?

Absolutely they do. And it's hard to see how else they could have resisted Israel's single-minded belligerence.


And I'm still waiting for Keith's deeper analysis of his "1431 casualties". What I want to know, Keith, if one third of your "casualties" were men aged 20 to 29, who were the other two-thirds? Full details, please. And what percentage of the US army or the UK army are men aged 20 to 29? I know you won't think that's a fair question, because I know you'll be thinking that "terrorists" shouldn't be allowed "armies", eh, Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:22 PM

"Because he applies a different standard to Israel than he does to the rest of the world."


THAT is in the EU definition of anti-semitism.




Oh, I forgot- YOU don't like to deal with facts...

Well I like to deal in facts. So would you please give me the source of that definition. And, as I'm wary of "facts" taken out of context, please give me the whole context, not some unattributed quote. I probably shouldn't be holding my breath (would you be voting for us to stay in the EU, by the way?)

I might add that, in my opinion, holding Israel to higher standards would be rather a good idea. After all, we give them rollicking good trade deals and we pay for their military, without question. That's quite a good setup for Israel. Perhaps, unlike what we do now, we should be bit more attentive to what responsibility they exercise in return. But we aren't. We just let them get on with it, no questions asked, don't we?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 06:30 PM

would you be voting for us to stay in the EU, by the way?

No, Bullshot is a Yank- you know, the country that gives Israel even bigger gobs of money than the UK does.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 07:16 PM

Ah, right. Thank God he's a yank and not a Brit, says I. You gotta feel sorry for yanks, though, Greg. In view of the all-powerful pro-Israel lobby and their biased media, it's really hard for them to find the full Middle East story. Even harder when they don't want to. Mucho kudos to those who do. There are one or two here. Equally, there are, sadly, a couple of truly blinkered Brits here too. I refer you to the infernal Keith 'n' Michael show.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM

Go easy on the Yanks, Steve - being one myself. ;>) We're not all of us right-wing TeaParty morons.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 08:09 PM

Asked about a comment made last year that he would most like to see Netanyahu stand trial in the Hague, Schabas said the comments were made in reference to the Goldstone Report, a UN Human Rights Council investigation that claimed Israel had committed war crimes during the 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead by deliberately targeting civilians during fighting in the Gaza Strip.

"I didn't prejudge him and I didn't say he was guilty," Schabas told Army Radio. "I was making a comment in the context of a discussion about the priorities of the International Criminal Court. I think probably every person in Israel has criticized the government in Israel at some point or other in their lives and the suggestion that I've delivered a verdict on this is wrong and unfair."

Finance Minister Yair Lapid, in an interview with Channel 2 later on Tuesday evening, pointed out that it was former prime minister Ehud Olmert who was in office during Operation Cast Lead and not Netanyahu.

"This is a ridiculous commission, set up by a ridiculous organization," Lapid said.

UN Gaza probe head says he's not anti-Israel, will be impartial

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:20 PM

So because in a slip of the tongue he named the incorrect Prime Minister, that means Israel DIDN'T commit war crimes during the 2008-2009 Operation Cast Lead by deliberately targeting civilians during fighting in the Gaza Strip.

You're even more of an imbecile than I thought, Boo!

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:36 PM

"Asked about a comment made last year that he would most like to see Netanyahu stand trial in the Hague, Schabas said the comments were made in reference to the Goldstone Report"

Our report found evidence of potential war crimes and "possibly crimes against humanity" by both Israel and Hamas. That the crimes allegedly committed by Hamas were intentional goes without saying — its rockets were purposefully and indiscriminately aimed at civilian targets.

The allegations of intentionality by Israel were based on the deaths of and injuries to civilians in situations where our fact-finding mission had no evidence on which to draw any other reasonable conclusion. While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee's report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy.

Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Aug 14 - 09:48 PM

Reconsidering the Goldstone Report on Israel and war crimes:

Israel's lack of cooperation with our investigation meant that we were not able to corroborate how many Gazans killed were civilians and how many were combatants.

We made our recommendations based on the record before us, which unfortunately did not include any evidence provided by the Israeli government.

While I welcome Israel's investigations into allegations, I share the concerns reflected in the McGowan Davis report that few of Israel's inquiries have been concluded and believe that the proceedings should have been held in a public forum. Although the Israeli evidence that has emerged since publication of our report doesn't negate the tragic loss of civilian life, I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 12:45 AM

Don't bracket me entirely with Keith, please, Steve. My approval of Israel is at present pretty well zero. Their unnecessary W Bank expansionist policies &c have been a great disappointment to me -- indeed, to all of us who worked for the foundation of the state all those years ago; hence also all those other disappointed Jewish luminaries [Einstein, Chomsky et al] always being cited. I didn't strive all those years to establish an aggressive entity which would unnecessarily destroy the livelihoods of an innocent hardworking community to establish settlements that could easily, but for doctrinaire determination, have been established elsewhere (plenty of the Negev left to colonise still). I have said all this here countless times before. So less of your K&M Show, please.

OTOH it is still one of the few outposts of civilisation in that blighted benighted crucifying-stoning-beheading-caning area; & clearly retains the full right of any nation to defend itself against attack.

Re the EU laws ref'd above which you sought the source for, wiki European Monitoring Centre On Racism & Xenophobia & follow links.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 02:31 AM

"clearly retains the full right of any nation to defend itself against attack"
You rightfully claim this on behalf of the Israelis Mike, but seem reluctant to grant the same right to the Palestinians.
If one people have a right to self-defence, then all have.
It only takes a quick count of casualties and fatalities, of loss of land, of number and intensity of military incursions, of prevailing living conditions, of freedom of movement and of human aspiration... to see which is the wealthier, stronger and most aggressive and which is the victim.
A late friend of ours attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem back in the eighties.
Politically he was 'liberal left', a gentle humanitarian who regarded everybody equally and having no particular political axe to grind.
After the first few days he sent us a card which read something like, "Beam me up Scotty - its like being in a military outpost surrounded by uniformed, unfriendly bullies keeping the natives in order - can't wait to get home and down a decent pint of Guinness".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 03:05 AM

Don't know what you mean there, Jim. I clearly posted, and you copied, "the right of ANY nation"; which of course includes the Palestinians if and when they are attacked. If they haven't the resources to defend themselves effectively, you had better refer the matter to those 'leaders' of theirs who have milked off all the aid that has come in from various sources to enrich themselves. You know this is the case -- everyone knows. That's why they they are the less 'strong, aggressive' & the rest of it. You can hardly blame the Israelis for that.

{In fact, you can; you can find reasons to blame the Israelis for anything & everything, Jim. I have my strong reservations about them, and my ongoing grievous disappointments, as you know, & will admit in some of your occasional more rational moments. But there is something manic in your constant shrieking hysterical hate-filled denunciations which points in some rather unsavoury directions and at some rather undesirable motivations which you would rather not acknowledge. You think it doesn't but it does.}

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:26 AM

JERUSALEM — The leader of a United Nations panel that investigated Israel's invasion of Gaza two years ago has retracted the central and most explosive assertion of its report — that Israel intentionally killed Palestinian civilians there.
   
Richard Goldstone, an esteemed South African jurist who led the panel of experts that spent months examining the Gaza war, wrote in an opinion article in The Washington Post that Israeli investigations into the conflict "indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy."

"If I had known then what I know now," he wrote, "the Goldstone Report would have been a different document."

His article, which was posted on The Post's Web site on Friday night, follows a report submitted two weeks ago by a committee of independent experts led by Mary McGowan Davis, a former New York judge, that said that Hamas had not conducted any internal investigations of its own but that Israel had devoted considerable resources in looking into more than 400 accusations of misconduct.

NY Times

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 04:29 AM

You did of course Mike, and I misread what you said - sincerest apologies - too early in the morning and brain not in gear yet
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 05:12 AM

Steve, re the casualty figures.
They prove that Israel is not killing indiscriminately.
Children and females are under-represented, all males are over-represented, and young men very over-represented.

That anomaly requires explanation.
The most likely would be that Hamas is lying about the status of its casualties.
Have you another?

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 06:30 AM

"They prove that Israel is not killing indiscriminately."
Then they are deliberate.
"Children and females are under-represented, all males are over-represented, and young men very over-represented."
Sex and age are immaterial even if they had been qualified and confirmed, which they have not, are both an immaterial and disgusting justification of these murders - thhe vast majority of them are non-combatants and the killing of non combatants, indiscriminate or deliberate is murder.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

GENEVA, Aug. 11 — A Geneva-based human rights group called on William Schabas to recuse himself from the UN's new Gaza inquiry, saying that he is legally disqualified by prior statements expressing his wish to see Prime Minister Netanyahu and former President Shimon Peres indicted before the International Criminal Court.

"Under international law, William Schabas is obliged to recuse himself because his repeated calls to indict Israeli leaders obviously gives rise to actual bias or the appearance thereof," said Hillel Neuer, an international lawyer and executive director of UN Watch, accredited to the United Nations as a non-governmental organization mandated to monitor the world's body's adherence to the UN Charter.

"You can't spend several years calling for the prosecution of someone, and then suddenly act as his judge," said Neuer. "It's absurd — and a violation of the minimal rules of due process applicable to UN fact-finding missions."


Prior statements of Schabas demonstrating bias or appearance thereof:

- "My favorite would be Netanyahu within the dock of the International Criminal Court," Schabas declared last year. (See video at 12:29)

- Schabas was an active participant before a pro-Palestinian "tribunal" that, according to a New York Times op-ed by Judge Richard Goldstone, consisted of one-sided evidence and a jury composed of "critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known."

- In a law journal article, Schabas wrote that Netanyahu could be considered "the single individual most likely to threaten the survival of Israel."

- A few years earlier, Schabas called for "going after" Israeli president Shimon Peres in the ICC, saying, "Why are we going after the president of Sudan for Darfur and not the president of Israel for Gaza?"

- In a 2009 blog post about the UN's infamous Durban II conference on racism, Schabas urged the world not only to "ignore" Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's statements, but to stop "exaggerating" them. According to Schabas, those who "deserve the blame" are "Israel and its friends, who have manipulated the truth about the nature of the work of the United Nations by gross exaggeration of the role and intervention of certain fanatics." Schabas described Ahmadinejad as nothing more than a "provocative politician," and not a torturer of dissidents, inciter of genocidal anti-Semitism, and arch-sponsor of terrorism.

- In 2011, Schabas went to Iran to co-sponsor conferences with the Tehran-based "Center for Human Rights and Cultural Diversity," despite its intimate ties with the fundamentalist regime, and avowed propaganda agenda. The center's director, Kamran Hashemi, a former political officer with Iran's foreign ministry, wrote his Ph.D under Schabas at the Irish Center for Human Rights.

UN Watch

Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 14 - 07:51 AM

My post did have a get-out clause for good yanks, Greg. ;-)