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BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

Jack the Sailor 07 Feb 14 - 10:17 AM
Richard Bridge 07 Feb 14 - 03:15 PM
bobad 07 Feb 14 - 04:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Feb 14 - 05:00 PM
Greg F. 07 Feb 14 - 05:20 PM
bobad 07 Feb 14 - 05:29 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Feb 14 - 05:35 PM
bobad 07 Feb 14 - 05:43 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Feb 14 - 05:47 PM
Richard Bridge 07 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM
Jack the Sailor 07 Feb 14 - 08:16 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 04:45 AM
Greg F. 08 Feb 14 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM
bobad 08 Feb 14 - 01:43 PM
bobad 08 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM
Greg F. 08 Feb 14 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Feb 14 - 03:50 PM
bobad 09 Feb 14 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 14 - 12:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Feb 14 - 12:26 PM
bobad 09 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Feb 14 - 01:21 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Feb 14 - 01:26 PM
bobad 09 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM
Jack the Sailor 09 Feb 14 - 01:44 PM
Greg F. 09 Feb 14 - 03:12 PM
bobad 09 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Feb 14 - 12:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM
bobad 10 Feb 14 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Feb 14 - 02:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Feb 14 - 04:00 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 Feb 14 - 04:43 PM
Greg F. 10 Feb 14 - 05:06 PM
Tootler 10 Feb 14 - 05:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 10 Feb 14 - 06:10 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 14 - 06:51 PM
GUEST 10 Feb 14 - 07:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 10 Feb 14 - 10:05 PM
bobad 11 Feb 14 - 08:20 AM
Greg F. 11 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 14 - 10:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM
bobad 11 Feb 14 - 11:20 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 14 - 11:38 AM
GUEST 11 Feb 14 - 11:49 AM
Stringsinger 11 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM
Greg F. 11 Feb 14 - 12:18 PM
Stringsinger 11 Feb 14 - 02:22 PM
GUEST,CS 11 Feb 14 - 03:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Feb 14 - 03:27 PM
Greg F. 11 Feb 14 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 11 Feb 14 - 06:20 PM
Stringsinger 12 Feb 14 - 01:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Feb 14 - 05:16 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM
Greg F. 12 Feb 14 - 06:25 PM
Greg F. 12 Feb 14 - 06:29 PM
bobad 12 Feb 14 - 06:50 PM
Stringsinger 12 Feb 14 - 08:33 PM
Jack the Sailor 12 Feb 14 - 10:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 14 - 02:18 AM
Stringsinger 13 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Feb 14 - 10:56 AM
Jack the Sailor 14 Feb 14 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 14 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 14 - 02:24 PM
bobad 14 Feb 14 - 03:49 PM
bobad 14 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM
Greg F. 14 Feb 14 - 05:15 PM
Stringsinger 14 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM
bobad 14 Feb 14 - 06:12 PM
Greg F. 14 Feb 14 - 06:34 PM
bobad 14 Feb 14 - 06:45 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 14 - 02:11 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 14 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Feb 14 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Feb 14 - 07:47 AM
bobad 20 Feb 14 - 11:40 AM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 09:30 AM
Greg F. 27 Feb 14 - 10:20 AM
Sawzaw 27 Feb 14 - 10:29 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 11:07 AM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 11:36 AM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 11:53 AM
Greg F. 27 Feb 14 - 12:01 PM
beardedbruce 27 Feb 14 - 12:03 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 12:09 PM
beardedbruce 27 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 12:33 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 14 - 01:25 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 01:35 PM
Stringsinger 27 Feb 14 - 02:05 PM
Greg F. 27 Feb 14 - 02:15 PM
beardedbruce 27 Feb 14 - 02:49 PM
Greg F. 27 Feb 14 - 02:53 PM
beardedbruce 27 Feb 14 - 02:55 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 02:58 PM
beardedbruce 27 Feb 14 - 03:06 PM
beardedbruce 27 Feb 14 - 03:12 PM
Greg F. 27 Feb 14 - 03:22 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 14 - 03:30 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Feb 14 - 03:30 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 03:38 PM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 04:08 PM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 04:22 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 04:31 PM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 04:41 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 04:54 PM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 05:04 PM
bobad 27 Feb 14 - 06:32 PM
Jack the Sailor 27 Feb 14 - 09:43 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Feb 14 - 12:47 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Feb 14 - 03:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM
bobad 28 Feb 14 - 06:43 AM
bobad 28 Feb 14 - 07:03 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 08:07 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 08:47 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 08:56 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 09:18 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Feb 14 - 09:35 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 09:46 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 09:49 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 09:54 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM
bobad 28 Feb 14 - 10:07 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 10:19 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 10:21 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 10:24 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Feb 14 - 10:28 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 10:34 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 10:36 AM
Jack the Sailor 28 Feb 14 - 10:39 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 10:46 AM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 10:54 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 12:00 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Feb 14 - 12:03 PM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 12:23 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 12:35 PM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 01:16 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 01:27 PM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 01:34 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 01:45 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 01:56 PM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 02:03 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 02:08 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 02:10 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Feb 14 - 02:11 PM
Stringsinger 28 Feb 14 - 02:13 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 02:14 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 02:17 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Feb 14 - 02:24 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 02:27 PM
Jack the Sailor 28 Feb 14 - 02:37 PM
beardedbruce 28 Feb 14 - 02:44 PM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM
Greg F. 28 Feb 14 - 05:44 PM
Stringsinger 01 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM
Greg F. 01 Mar 14 - 10:30 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 14 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 14 - 07:41 AM
bobad 02 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 14 - 08:28 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 14 - 08:37 AM
bobad 02 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM
Jack the Sailor 02 Mar 14 - 09:24 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM
bobad 02 Mar 14 - 09:48 AM
Greg F. 02 Mar 14 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 14 - 11:08 AM
Stringsinger 02 Mar 14 - 12:17 PM
bobad 02 Mar 14 - 12:36 PM
GUEST 02 Mar 14 - 12:50 PM
bobad 02 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Mar 14 - 02:26 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM
bobad 02 Mar 14 - 07:43 PM
bobad 02 Mar 14 - 08:33 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 14 - 03:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 14 - 03:56 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 14 - 04:57 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 14 - 06:25 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 10:07 AM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 10:31 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 10:40 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Mar 14 - 11:55 AM
Jack the Sailor 03 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 03:07 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 03:29 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 05:50 PM
Greg F. 03 Mar 14 - 09:07 PM
bobad 03 Mar 14 - 09:38 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 02:43 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM
Stringsinger 04 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM
GUEST 04 Mar 14 - 12:37 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Mar 14 - 01:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 02:58 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 03:08 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 03:39 PM
GUEST,CS 04 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 04:11 PM
GUEST 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 05:12 PM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 05:36 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 06:25 PM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 06:36 PM
Jack the Sailor 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM
Greg F. 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM
bobad 04 Mar 14 - 06:56 PM
beardedbruce 05 Mar 14 - 08:03 AM
bobad 05 Mar 14 - 08:23 AM
beardedbruce 05 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM
Greg F. 05 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM
beardedbruce 05 Mar 14 - 09:19 AM
Greg F. 05 Mar 14 - 09:29 AM
beardedbruce 05 Mar 14 - 09:36 AM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Mar 14 - 03:48 PM
Jack the Sailor 05 Mar 14 - 07:04 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 14 - 03:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 14 - 04:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 14 - 07:22 AM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 07:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 14 - 08:47 AM
Greg F. 06 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 10:02 AM
Greg F. 06 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 10:56 AM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 11:01 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 01:16 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 14 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Mar 14 - 03:06 PM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 03:31 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 03:46 PM
Jack the Sailor 06 Mar 14 - 03:51 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 14 - 04:21 PM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 04:35 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 14 - 04:54 PM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 04:57 PM
Greg F. 06 Mar 14 - 06:09 PM
bobad 06 Mar 14 - 06:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Mar 14 - 09:41 PM
Greg F. 07 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM
beardedbruce 07 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM
Greg F. 07 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM
beardedbruce 07 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM
Greg F. 07 Mar 14 - 01:45 PM
beardedbruce 07 Mar 14 - 01:59 PM
beardedbruce 07 Mar 14 - 02:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 14 - 07:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Mar 14 - 08:21 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Mar 14 - 07:09 AM
Jack the Sailor 08 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM
bobad 14 Mar 14 - 10:08 AM
beardedbruce 14 Mar 14 - 10:28 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM
beardedbruce 14 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM
beardedbruce 14 Mar 14 - 11:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 02:16 PM
beardedbruce 14 Mar 14 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Mar 14 - 04:35 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Mar 14 - 04:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Mar 14 - 09:01 AM
Greg F. 15 Mar 14 - 11:14 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Mar 14 - 05:45 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM
Joe_F 16 Mar 14 - 09:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Mar 14 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 17 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Stringsinger 17 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 14 - 04:30 AM
GUEST,Stringsinger 20 Mar 14 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Mar 14 - 01:54 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 14 - 10:40 PM
GUEST,Troubadour. 21 Mar 14 - 08:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 02:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 02:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 03:28 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 03:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 06:53 AM
GUEST 22 Mar 14 - 06:54 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 22 Mar 14 - 07:20 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 22 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM
bobad 22 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 08:29 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 08:56 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 09:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 02:02 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 22 Mar 14 - 03:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 03:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 03:25 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Mar 14 - 03:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 22 Mar 14 - 04:15 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM
bobad 11 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM
Greg F. 11 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM
Jack the Sailor 11 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM
beardedbruce 11 Apr 14 - 11:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 11 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM
Stringsinger 11 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM
beardedbruce 11 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM
beardedbruce 11 Apr 14 - 03:34 PM
bobad 11 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Apr 14 - 01:21 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Apr 14 - 06:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Apr 14 - 11:07 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Apr 14 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 14 - 04:34 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 14 - 10:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 14 - 11:01 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Apr 14 - 10:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM
bobad 21 Apr 14 - 01:36 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM
GUEST 21 Apr 14 - 03:19 PM
Greg F. 21 Apr 14 - 04:28 PM
bobad 21 Apr 14 - 07:07 PM
Greg F. 21 Apr 14 - 09:01 PM
bobad 21 Apr 14 - 09:02 PM
Stringsinger 22 Apr 14 - 05:34 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Apr 14 - 05:49 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Apr 14 - 07:14 PM
Greg F. 22 Apr 14 - 08:06 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Apr 14 - 11:36 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 03:32 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 05:35 AM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 07:30 AM
Stringsinger 23 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 12:49 PM
beardedbruce 23 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 01:23 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM
beardedbruce 23 Apr 14 - 01:48 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM
beardedbruce 23 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 03:58 PM
Greg F. 23 Apr 14 - 04:57 PM
Stringsinger 24 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 14 - 06:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM
Greg F. 24 Apr 14 - 08:12 PM
Stringsinger 25 Apr 14 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,JotSC 25 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,JotSC 25 Apr 14 - 07:44 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 14 - 08:09 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 26 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 26 Apr 14 - 03:43 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 14 - 07:37 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 14 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 14 - 08:54 AM
bobad 27 Apr 14 - 09:19 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 14 - 11:55 AM
bobad 27 Apr 14 - 12:31 PM
Greg F. 27 Apr 14 - 01:45 PM
bobad 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 14 - 02:48 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 14 - 03:55 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 14 - 04:20 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 14 - 04:46 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 05:38 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 05:45 PM
Greg F. 27 Apr 14 - 06:11 PM
bobad 27 Apr 14 - 06:29 PM
Greg F. 27 Apr 14 - 06:31 PM
bobad 27 Apr 14 - 06:42 PM
Greg F. 27 Apr 14 - 06:59 PM
bobad 27 Apr 14 - 07:15 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 14 - 07:55 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 14 - 08:00 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM
Stringsinger 28 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM
Greg F. 28 Apr 14 - 11:26 AM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM
Greg F. 28 Apr 14 - 02:54 PM
beardedbruce 28 Apr 14 - 03:01 PM
Stringsinger 29 Apr 14 - 11:40 AM
beardedbruce 29 Apr 14 - 11:59 AM
Greg F. 29 Apr 14 - 05:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 04:23 AM
Greg F. 30 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM
beardedbruce 30 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM
Greg F. 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM
beardedbruce 30 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM
Greg F. 30 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM
beardedbruce 30 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM
beardedbruce 30 Apr 14 - 01:55 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Apr 14 - 02:26 PM
Greg F. 30 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM
Greg F. 30 Apr 14 - 05:55 PM
Stringsinger 30 Apr 14 - 07:17 PM
Greg F. 07 May 14 - 05:04 PM
bobad 07 May 14 - 07:29 PM
Greg F. 07 May 14 - 08:09 PM
bobad 07 May 14 - 09:28 PM
Greg F. 07 May 14 - 09:34 PM
Greg F. 07 May 14 - 09:39 PM
bobad 07 May 14 - 10:14 PM
bobad 07 May 14 - 10:21 PM
Greg F. 08 May 14 - 08:44 AM
bobad 08 May 14 - 09:01 AM
Greg F. 08 May 14 - 10:11 AM
bobad 20 May 14 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 14 - 12:14 PM
MGM·Lion 20 May 14 - 12:48 PM
Greg F. 20 May 14 - 12:59 PM
bobad 20 May 14 - 01:29 PM
Greg F. 20 May 14 - 02:05 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 14 - 02:44 PM
MGM·Lion 20 May 14 - 03:06 PM
bobad 20 May 14 - 04:24 PM
bobad 20 May 14 - 04:39 PM
Greg F. 20 May 14 - 05:14 PM
bobad 20 May 14 - 05:38 PM
Teribus 21 May 14 - 05:01 AM
bobad 21 May 14 - 08:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 May 14 - 09:11 AM
bobad 21 May 14 - 09:28 AM
bobad 24 May 14 - 08:08 PM
Greg F. 13 Jun 14 - 10:06 AM
Greg F. 14 Jun 14 - 02:41 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM
bobad 14 Jun 14 - 04:52 PM
bobad 14 Jun 14 - 05:16 PM
Greg F. 14 Jun 14 - 05:16 PM
bobad 14 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM
Greg F. 14 Jun 14 - 06:37 PM
bobad 14 Jun 14 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 14 Jun 14 - 09:25 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 14 Jun 14 - 09:43 PM
bobad 14 Jun 14 - 09:49 PM
Greg F. 14 Jun 14 - 11:15 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 14 - 03:23 AM
GUEST 15 Jun 14 - 03:37 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jun 14 - 05:08 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 14 - 07:00 AM
MGM·Lion 15 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 14 - 08:18 AM
Greg F. 15 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM
Greg F. 15 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM
bobad 15 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM
Stringsinger 15 Jun 14 - 10:20 AM
bobad 15 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM
Greg F. 15 Jun 14 - 01:34 PM
bobad 15 Jun 14 - 02:36 PM
GUEST,Troubadour. 15 Jun 14 - 09:17 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 15 Jun 14 - 10:35 PM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 08:43 AM
Teribus 16 Jun 14 - 09:07 AM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 10:01 AM
Teribus 16 Jun 14 - 10:10 AM
Greg F. 16 Jun 14 - 10:37 AM
Stringsinger 16 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM
bobad 16 Jun 14 - 10:58 AM
MGM·Lion 16 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 14 - 02:24 AM
MGM·Lion 17 Jun 14 - 03:52 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 14 - 06:48 AM
Greg F. 17 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM
Teribus 17 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM
bobad 17 Jun 14 - 10:22 AM
Greg F. 17 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM
bobad 01 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Aug 14 - 06:00 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Aug 14 - 03:55 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Aug 14 - 05:57 PM
bobad 02 Aug 14 - 07:13 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Aug 14 - 08:03 PM
Greg F. 02 Aug 14 - 08:31 PM
bobad 02 Aug 14 - 08:58 PM
GUEST 02 Aug 14 - 10:14 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 03 Aug 14 - 12:58 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 14 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Aug 14 - 06:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Aug 14 - 06:18 AM
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Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 03:44 AM
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Jim Carroll 23 Aug 14 - 04:16 AM
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Keith A of Hertford 23 Aug 14 - 10:40 AM
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Greg F. 28 Aug 14 - 08:35 AM
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Subject: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 10:17 AM

Boycott Divestment Sanctions working?

The Economist seems to think so.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 03:15 PM

Like!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 04:16 PM

"The BDS (Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions against Israel) movement has assembled a rather strange sort of bedfellows. It is led by Arab-Muslim professional propagandists who seek Israel's destruction, along with leftist students and faculty members seeking a 'cause,' and non-better than one "to stick it to the Jews." Among them, one could find naïve students with little understanding of the history of the Middle East or the Arab-Israeli conflict. It matters not that their cause is unjust, and transparently anti-Semitic, or that the Arab world unlike Israel's open democracy is homophobic, enslaves women, is utterly intolerant of Christians and Jews, or that its schools breed hatred and misanthropy."

The Hypocrisy of the BDS Movement


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:00 PM

bobad, nice quote. Brilliant attempt to brush away the facts on the ground with empty, loaded words.

these are the worries of Israeli business.

"Mr Lapid, who favours a two-state solution, reels out figures to show how sanctions could hit every Israeli pocket. "If negotiations with the Palestinians stall or blow up and we enter the reality of a European boycott, even a very partial one," he warned, 10,000 Israelis would "immediately" lose their jobs. Trade with the European Union, a third of Israel's total, would slump—he calculates—by $5.7 billion."

The Economist is a business magazine. It is reporting on how politics is affecting business.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:20 PM

Uh huh.

SPME - another self-proclaimed pro-Isreali Goverment apologist propaganda organisation; obviously a non-biased source.

Joseph Puder is and has ben a cheerleader and apologist for Netanyahu and his gang.

C'mon, BooBad- this is even worse than you usual drivel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:29 PM

If anyone believes that a peaceful resolution can be had by demonizing one side in the conflict - well, I have some bad news for you.

Here is one person who is going about it the right way, Ahmed Meligy an Egyptian Muslim. You can read about him and the work he's doing HERE. Check out the links to his blog and that of YaLa. It is people like these who will eventually bring peace to that part of the world not those haters who are trying to "stick it to the Jews."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:35 PM

"stick it to the Jews."

I'm glad that you put that in quotes.

Have you ever heard anyone say that?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:43 PM

Ah yes Greg, Jews supporting their government and having an opinion on BDS, what was I thinking- we can't have that - after all we know what they're like...right.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:47 PM

Is SPME in Israel Bobad? Is it their government they are supporting?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM

Hmm, the analogy of South Africa being overlooked, then?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Feb 14 - 08:16 PM

BDS is the strategy of South Africa, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 04:45 AM

"Like!"
Me too Richard.
Israel has just been forced by world pressure to abandon their attempts to ghettoise the Bedouins of Israel - the 'Prawar Plan' has been widely described as part of an attempt to "ethnically cleanse" the Bedouins from Israeli territory.
Previous attempts at ethnic cleansing have included the proposed moving of Bedouins onto toxic rubbish dumps (also abandoned - then at the insistence of The U.N.), and the use of high pressure water cannons and chemical sprays on Bedouin homes and crops.
John Kerry has been accused of "Antisemitism" because he has exposed what he claims to have been deliberate attempts by Israel to scupper the Palestinian/Israeli peace talks.
There is world condemnation of Israel's continuing settlement policy in the middle of peace talks.
Last year a documentary film interviewing a number of ex Mossad chiefs had one of them comparing the present Israeli regime to the Nazis (straight from the horses mouth).
The Israeli regime doesn't seem to care much, why should it - it has powerful allies and nuclear weapons (god help us all)
Maybe hitting them in the pocket with economic sanctions and ostracisation might do the trick - it eventually did with South Africa.
More power to their elbows.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 10:35 AM

Ah yes Greg, Jews supporting their government and having an opinion on BDS -

Gee, BooBad- Seemed to me that article was written by this dude Puder- not by "Jews". Is Puder an Israeli National, by the way?

Do check out the article "The International Holocaust Remembrance Day Charade January 30, 2014 by Joseph Puder. The world pays lip service to the Holocaust — while laying the groundwork for the next one."

And then there are the Israelis and other Jews world-wide who OPPOSE the current Israeli government- or have you forgotten about them, again?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 12:59 PM

http://www.seamac.org/EqualRights.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stanley-kutler/israel-can-do-no-wrong-je_b_4521643.html

http://www.icahd.org/

http://iilah.unimelb.edu.au/files/dmfile/download51921.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_for_Justice_for_Palestinians


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 01:43 PM

THE GLOBAL BDS CAMPAIGN LAID BARE


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 01:48 PM

"And then there are the Israelis and other Jews world-wide who OPPOSE the current Israeli government- or have you forgotten about them, again?"

Well duh, as in democratic country there are some who oppose their government that's why they have elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:16 PM

"THE GLOBAL BDS CAMPAIGN LAID BARE", BooBad?

How about Peter Wertheim's long-standing defense of illegal Isreali "settlements"?

Well duh, as in democratic country there are some who oppose their government ...

And according to you these persons are "anti-Semites", correct?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 14 - 03:50 PM

"THE GLOBAL BDS CAMPAIGN LAID BARE"
We didn't do it guv!!!
They would say that, wouldn't they?
"And according to you these persons are "anti-Semites"
Which means that all Jews are to be held responsible for the Israeli human rights crimes that the Israeli regimes have now been out on over one hundred occasions (to date)
- hmm
Sounds a bit Antisemitic to me!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 11:57 AM

Foreign investment in Tel Aviv Stock Exchange tripled in 2013

Foreign investments in companies traded on the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange more than tripled from 2012 to 2013, according to figures the Bank of Israel released Sunday.

Nonresident net investments reached about $1.5 billion in TASE shares in 2013, primarily in pharmaceuticals, banking and communications industries. In 2012, the figure amounted to only $410 million, indicating an increase of some 266% in 2013.
   
Nonresidents also bought $940 million in Israeli shares that were traded abroad, on exchanges such as the NASDAQ, in 2013.

All in all, though, Israelis invested more of their money abroad, with Israel's institutional investors putting some $3.36 billion into foreign shares, households investing $2.1 billion, and the business sector investing $1.3 billion abroad.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:23 PM

What are the point of your meaningless snippets Boo-Boo apart from the fact that the Ireali regime is raking in money from its terrorist activities - just as South frica did from enslaving the black population
Doesn't change the fact they are a terrorist state which needs U.S vetoes to keep it out of the War Crimes court
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 12:26 PM

>>Nonresidents also bought $940 million in Israeli shares that were traded abroad, on exchanges such as the NASDAQ, in 2013.<<

Non residents who defend "their government" from articles in The Economist?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM

Re.BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) praised Israel's economic growth in 2013 and predicted that its economy will continue to grow in 2014 and 2015 at a rate that exceeds growth projections for the OECD's other 33 member nations, Israel Hayom reported.

"Israel's output growth remains relatively strong, unemployment is at historically low levels, its high-tech sector continues to attract international admiration and new off-shore gas fields have come on stream," the OECD said in the executive summary of its 2013 Israel Economic Survey.

The report projected that Israel's economy would grow by 3.7 per cent in 2013, compared to 3.9-per cent growth in 2012. Growth projections for 2014 and 2015 were pegged at 3.4 per cent and 3.5 per cent, respectively. As a result, unemployment is expected to rise from its current historic low of 5.9 per cent to a range of 6.6-6.9 per cent. The OECD also praised the Israeli economy for being one of the most turmoil-resistant economies in the West and for its high-tech industry.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:21 PM

How does that compare with Israel's neighbours Bobad?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:26 PM

You are still arguing "Israel is rich so you can stuff your human right" Boo-Boo
It's still a terrorist state, no matter how rich it becomes - or are you arguing that money puts it above international law?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM

Would that Israel's neighbours enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens - the Middle East would be a much more peaceful and prosperous place.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:44 PM

He is not arguing anything. I say good luck to Israel as more and more people and countries boycott their goods, especially goods like Sodastream, made by exploited labor on stolen land, and more and more of their investment comes from people who enjoy the benefits of other countries while claiming that "their government" is Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 03:12 PM

Ah, Jack, you old anti-Semite you......


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM

Meanwhile, Palestinians who work at the factory tell the International Business Times that they are just trying to make a living.

Yasmin Abu Markhia, 22, is proudly Palestinian. When asked about her nationality, she lifted her sleeve to show a Palestinian-flag bracelet.

Abu Markhia checks and stacks the carbon dioxide canisters that go inside SodaStream machines. She has worked at the factory for just four months. Considering she's a Palestinian living in Jerusalem but working in the occupied West Bank, the political storm is far from her mind. She said she sees no conflict in working at SodaStream: "We are human, we earn good money and the work is good."

SodaStream Yasmin Abu Markhia Yasmin Abu Markhia, a Palestinian worker at SodaStream in the occupied West Bank, proudly shows her Palestinian bracelet. Kate Shuttleworth

Zafid Abu Aballah, 28, is an Israeli Arab who has been a machine operator at the factory for four years. He earns $2,000 a month, significantly more than the Palestinian Authority minimum wage of 1,450 Israeli shekels ($377).

"I have an Israeli passport. If the firm closed I could find another job, but Palestinians would not be able to. There are no jobs for Palestinians in the West Bank," he said. "This is political, but the people here just want to work and live, they don't have an interest in the politics between Palestine and Israel."

Palestinian Nabil Basharat, 40, from a village near Ramallah, has worked for SodaStream for four years and is now a shift manager. He supports his wife and six children on an income he says is high by both Palestinian and Israeli standards. About the boycott, he said it came down to protecting the workers' ability to earn a fair wage:

"We understand their [BDS and Oxfam's] opinion, but they need to understand what the factory gives the Palestinian workers, and there are a lot of factories in this area doing the same thing."

Similarly Palestinian Asharaf Aballi, 28, from Jenin, said he supported his parents, his wife and another eight family members on his income of $2,000: "First off we need a job and an income to live -- I have a family and I need money."

An unemployed youth near Qalandiya checkpoint, who gave his name as Yasser, said the minimum wage in the Palestinian Authority made it nearly impossible to live. "We need more factories like SodaStream. It's hard to get a job there," he said.

SodaStream CEO Daniel Birnbaum told IBTimes on Monday that he is "fed up" with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and that businesspeople should take the opportunity to contribute to peace. He also said he didn't agree with settlements and believes that they shouldn't be built, despite the fact that his factory sits in the center of one. His company can in fact be "a model for peace." "We are showing Israelis and Palestinians that there can be peace," Birnbaum said.

IBT


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 12:46 PM

I didn't buy anything from South Africa, till the apartheid regime ended.

The same goes for Israel. I look forward to the day I'll be able to eat Israeli oranges as well as South African.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:04 PM

BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'

I am happy that the Soda Stream PR person could find so many positive stories. Warms the heart. Where is the factory located? How was the land obtained? What is the opportunity cost to the Palestinians of stolen land and flattened orchards?


McGrath

Are Israeli oranges sustainable? The "miracle" of Israeli agriculture seems to have a high environmental cost. I am not an expert on irrigation but I suspect oranges can and are grown more sustainably elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 01:11 PM

Palestinian workers praise SodaStream - and Scarlett Johansson

It's time to stop faulting Israel for all our problems, Palestinian worker says.

HAARETZ


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 02:57 PM

"Would that Israel's neighbours enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens "
Except those suffering against the apartheid system that is being protested against by Israelis and Arabs alike, of course - not to mention the ethnically-cleansed Bedouins!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 03:48 PM

They actually are better off than Israel's neighbours!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:00 PM

Better than Syrians maybe. But that has been recent.

Bobad, Do you think that HAARETZ is a neutral source? It isn't worth opening the link.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 04:43 PM

The Bedouin in Egypt are much worse off than Bedouin Israelis.
I am sure there is truth in that survey that found Arab Israelis would not choose to live in Arab lands.
I am sure Israel would let them go if they wanted to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 05:06 PM

The Bedouin in Egypt are much worse off than Bedouin Israelis.

And this is likely confirmed by "all historians", right, self-identified complete idiot?

And that would justify wht Israel is doing, oh self-DEMONSTRATED idiot?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Tootler
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 05:23 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 06:10 PM

"I am sure Israel would let them go if they wanted to leave. "

I am sure that Egypt would not let them in.

What does that have to do with Israel stealing their land?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 06:51 PM

"It is led by Arab-Muslim professional propagandists who seek Israel's destruction, along with leftist students and faculty members seeking a 'cause,' and non-better than one "to stick it to the Jews."

I mustt have missed the reference in that article to "JEWS". All I saw was "ISRAEL".

Perhaps you would point out the comment to which you refer?

Or did you, as usual, invent it?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 07:03 PM

"It's time to stop faulting Israel for all our problems, Palestinian worker says."

How about canvassing the views of a few non "Uncle Tom" Palestinians?

You know, the Palestinians squeezed into 40% of the West Bank. What do they think of Israeli "Democracy"?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Feb 14 - 10:05 PM

Apartheid South Africa was also a democracy in the sense that it had elections and a parliamentary system. To get over the criticism that black people weren't allowed to vote they set up Bantustans where they could vote.

Israeli democracy has a similar pattern, with the difference that the excluded electorate actually live in the Bantustans, and the remnant of Palestinians who are not in exile are allowed to vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 08:20 AM

"It is not difficult to recognize that BDS's target is not Israeli policies, but Israel itself. American political scientist Norman Finkelstein points out that BDS claims to be agnostic on Israel. However, as he also points out, their three goals only lead to one logical conclusion: the destruction of Israel. This campaign demonizes Israel through the slanderous accusation of apartheid. Israel is not an apartheid state. Israel's Basic Laws guarantee equal treatment for all citizens, including Arab-Israeli citizens. The Occupation, in spite of its brutality, is the result of a long and complex territorial conflict in which neither Israel nor the Palestinians have been without blame. The "Wall" was built for security purposes, not to enforce racial segregation. While the construction of the "Wall" has hurt Palestinians, it has also reduced the number of Palestinian attacks on Israeli citizens. This is the kind of nuance that the label "apartheid" obscures. Indeed, the word "apartheid" is not an accurate criticism of Israeli policies, but a weapon aimed at the very idea of Israel."

The McGill Daily


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM

BDS's target is not Israeli policies, but Israel itself....their three goals only lead to one logical conclusion: the destruction of Israel.

Horseshit. An anonymous, un-footnoted article in a college blog?

Try

Here


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 10:37 AM

"Apartheid" is the Afrikaans word for separation. That seems a fair teem for what has happened to the overwhelming majority of Palestinians, in terms of their homeland.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM

Would the same word encompass the keeping of Palestinians in camps with no rights at all for seventy years, which has been the practice in countries other than Israel.
That really is "separation."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 11:20 AM

"I mean we have to be honest, and I loathe the disingenuous. They don't want Israel. They think they are being very clever; they call it their three tier. We want the end of the occupation, the right of return, and we want equal rights for Arabs in Israel. And they think they are very clever because they know the result of implementing all three is what, what is the result?

You know and I know what the result is. There's no Israel!"



"They say no they're not really talking about rights. They're talking about they want to destroy Israel. And in fact I think they're right I think that's true. I'm not going to lie. But this kind of duplicity and disingenuous, "oh we're agnostic about Israel." No you're not agnostic! You don't want it! Then just say it!"

Norman Finkelstein on BDS


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 11:38 AM

"The Bedouin in Egypt are much worse off than Bedouin Israelis."
Even if ths were true, so what - it does not excuse the programme of ethnic cleansing Israel has just been forced to abandon (which you supported up to the point that they withdrew if, then you and your two mates went ballistic) - a human rights atrocity is a human rights atrocity whichever bunch of thugs commits it; same with apartheid, chemical weapons, massacring refugees... hand all the other atrocities Isral has been saved from being indicted as a war criminal by U.S. - U.N. veoes ("but they said they didn't do it!!").
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 11:49 AM

Is Norman Finkelstein one of those Americans who is defending their government in Israel?

Who is he that we should take his word as to what the BDS movement means over the word of those leading the BDS movement?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 12:15 PM

Jews all over the world decry the violence of Zionism, which entails the oppression of Palestinians.

Norman Finkelstein does't believe that a compromise in Israel which will accept leadership of both Jewish and Palestinian governance is possible.

We have a similar problem in America where many Christians want to Christianize America and not allow other religious or non-religious views to take root, defending Israel in their theological nationalism as a part of their own biblical prophecy.



The BDS movement is not a cult because it doesn't ostracize people who don't join it.
There is no guru here. The purpose is to send a message to Israeli leaders that they don't want expansionist behavior, restrictive walls and the maltreatment of the Palestinian people.

The nations of Israel and America must be redefined to include democratic values and not authoritarian religious values. The US is not a Christian nation therefore it behooves Israel not to be a Jewish nation. Theocracy can lead only to more bloodshed.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 12:18 PM

Is Norman Finkelstein one of those Americans who is defending their government in Israel?

Unfortunately, yes. But he must have hit his head recently - ordinarily, he's usually considerably more connected to the real world.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 02:22 PM

Finkelstein is reacting. He's made valid points in the past but he is in danger of becoming bigoted like Alan Dershowitz, his nemesis.

BDS is about reconciliation in a meaningful way through non-violent action.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:08 PM

I may be being a bit dense here, but why would (quote) "the end of the occupation, the right of return, and ... equal rights for Arabs in Israel." necessarily bring about the "destruction" of the state of Israel?

Sure it's boundaries may shift a little and the demographics would adjust - as is indeed a natural byproduct of the osmosis of human movement - but so what? How does that destroy a nation? Especially a supposedly modern democratic one.

I guess I should really watch the video.. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:27 PM

The Jews would become a minority.
Israel was created to be a "Jewish State."
It would cease to exist as such, and become one more Arab state.
Jews are not treated well in Arab states.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 03:54 PM

why would (quote) "the end of the occupation, the right of return, and ... equal rights for Arabs in Israel." necessarily bring about the "destruction" of the state of Israel?

It obviously wouldn't - necessarily or otherwise.

(And pay no attention to that Keith behind the curtain.)


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 06:20 PM

"Would the same word encompass the keeping of Palestinians in camps with no rights at all"

Yes indeed, including but not limited to, Gaza and the 40% of West Bank behind the wire.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 01:44 PM

"The Jews would become a minority.
Israel was created to be a "Jewish State."

This is analogous to Christians in America. Fortunately America is not a Christian nation as John Adams so eloquently wrote. I don't think that Jews would necessarily be in a minority and this belies the fact that among Arab people, there are different cultural groups, one being Palestinian.

"It would cease to exist as such, and become one more Arab state."

Nonsense. This assumes that all Arab states are alike, more chauvinism.

"Jews are not treated well in Arab states."

Historically Jews were treated with respect in Islamic countries. Perhaps, today, with cause, Zionists are treated by some Arab states with hostility due to the Zionist national proclivity for war and oppression. Again, criticism of Zionist behavior can't be equated with Anti-Semitism because, 1. Arabs are a Semitic tribe and 2. Not all Jews like the Zionism being practiced in Israel today that has been co-opted by the dictator, Netanyahu.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 05:16 PM

The Jews had no state.
They were persecuted in every land they found themselves, and were subject to the greatest genocide in human history.
The UN agreed to give them their own state.
Just a tiny sliver of land, invisible on a map, lost among the vast surrounding Arab lands.
Their persecutors would deny them even that.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM

"The UN agreed to give them their own state.
Just a tiny sliver of land, invisible on a map, lost among the vast surrounding Arab lands.
Their persecutors would deny them even that. "

Yeah perhaps it wasn't the best idea to settle on occupied land?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:25 PM

No no, Keith GOD gave them the land. And they occupy it, and extend that occupation wherever they see fit, by GOD'S will.

Try to keep up, will you?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:29 PM

...the greatest genocide in human history...

I think the indigenous peoples of the Americas might contest that, Keith.

Of course, they didn't occupy the Americas by Divine Right, being Godless savages.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 06:50 PM

"Yeah perhaps it wasn't the best idea to settle on occupied land?"

They were settled in the homeland of the Jewish people - where would you have had them settled?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 08:33 PM

"They were settled in the homeland of the Jewish people - where would you have had them settled?"

That argument is up for grabs. Who was there first? That has never been rationally solved.
Propaganda instead of facts. The UN didn't know they were about to kick out the people who were displaced otherwise they might have reconsidered.

The solution is for Israel to overthrow democratically Netanyahu and his party and replace it with a government that can share equal polity with the Palestinian population. In America,
there is a Christian majority regarding religious preference but our Constitution is secular and doesn't give Christianity any special office, but not many rational Christians think they will be displaced by any other religious or non-religious group. This is because the US is not a theocracy, at least not yet.

israel has to give up being the reactionary theocratic nation state and embrace a true democracy entailing diversity. Jews have been around a long time and have nothing to fear about becoming extinct. If Jews are in the minority, so what? In a true democratic state they won't be persecuted, witness America where they are in a minority and thrive.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Feb 14 - 10:11 PM

"where would you have had them settled?"

Who should give up the land for European Jews persecuted by the Germans? How about the Germans?

Alberta?

Wyoming?

Guyana?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 02:18 AM

Of course the UN knew the implications, but they reached agreement and took the decision.
That is History.

The Jews had no state.
They were persecuted in every land they found themselves, and were subject to the greatest genocide in human history.
The UN agreed to give them their own state.
Just a tiny sliver of land, invisible on a map, lost among the vast surrounding Arab lands.
Their persecutors would deny them even that.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM

'The history recounted in the Bible is a huge part of the mythology of modern Zionism. The idea of a promised land is based on narratives that assert with complete confidence stories that never actually happened'


The Old Testament's made-up camels are a problem for Zionism
theguardian.com
Andrew Brown: The earliest camel bones have been dated at 1,500 years after Genesis – which undermines Zionists' promised land narrative


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Feb 14 - 10:56 AM

Israel exists because of UN, not OT.
Anyway, Egypt did have camels.
Abraham might have brought some back.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 10:51 AM

I missed this.

From: bobad - PM
Date: 09 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM

Would that Israel's neighbours enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens - the Middle East would be a much more peaceful and prosperous place.


Would that all of the people inside the borders that Israel controls enjoyed the same level of human rights as do ALL of Israel's citizens - the Middle East would be a much more peaceful and prosperous place.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 11:29 AM

Nice to see the usual suspects lining up behind Israeli atrocities and human rights abuses as has come to be expected – brings a warm glow!! They'll be blaming "the Jews" for the Israeli regime's terrorist behaviour next – then we'll really know that all is well and God is in his heaven
Jim Carroll
Oh - I forgot - Israel didn't do it (whatever it was) they said so!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 02:24 PM

Maybe someone can produce a list of historians that can prove they didn't do it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 03:49 PM

Oops!

Wael Elasady, a fixture on the extremist anti-Israel circuit visited the University of Washington on January 30th to promote his Marketo buysvision for a Middle East free of the Jewish state. Not bound by the constraints of veracity or truth, Elasady regularly libels Israel, claiming that Arab political parties are banned in Israel (not true) and that converts to Judaism are ineligible for the "Right of Return" (also not true).

In a convoluted apologia for the defacing of a Star of David with a Swastika at a PSU event, Elasady compared the Nazi genocide to Israel's response to Arab violence. "It's not surprising that many leverage moral indignation at Nazi crimes against the Jewish people to draw attention to oppression of the Palestinians by Israel" asserted Elasady.

At the University of Washington event Elasady advocated for the economic strangulation of Israel through Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS). Elasady urged the impressionable students to pressure business and academia to cease investment in Israeli corporations.

This position is particularly ironic when one considers that Elasady's employer (according to his Linkedin page) Marketo is a major investor in the Israeli economy. In addition to purchasing Israeli company Insightera for 20 million dollars just two months ago, Elasady's company is setting up a research and development center in Israel, which will employ Insightera's current workforce.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 03:56 PM

Japanese Internet giant snags Viber for $900m

The biggest-ever buyout of an Israeli tech company by an Asian firm will likely lead to more Asia-Israel deals, experts say

Yup....BDS is really "gathering weight".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 05:15 PM

Maybe someone can produce a list of historians that can prove they didn't do it?

I'm sure Keith will assert that ALL historians assert they didn't do it - whatever it was.

Good enuf?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 05:58 PM

"The biggest-ever buyout of an Israeli tech company by an Asian firm will likely lead to more Asia-Israel deals, experts say
Yup....BDS is really "gathering weight".

It is but not coming from corporations who find in convenient to capitalize on propaganda.
It's coming from people who have no ties to corporate buyouts or criminal wall streeters.
It's a quiet movement but becoming more known as Israeli leaders commit more atrocities and as BDS stresses non-violent ways of dealing with Israel's military.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:12 PM

"The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) praised Israel's economic growth in 2013 and predicted that its economy will continue to grow in 2014 and 2015 at a rate that exceeds growth projections for the OECD's other 33 member nations, Israel Hayom reported."

Yup...keep on BDSing.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:34 PM

And praise of PAST performance proves what, eggzackly, BooBad?

Or do the amassed sheckels negate abysmal performance in the area of Human Rights?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Feb 14 - 06:45 PM

"And praise of PAST performance proves what, eggzackly, BooBad?"

Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) is a global campaign[1] which uses economic and political pressure on Israel to comply with the stated goals of the movement: The end of Israeli occupation and colonization of Arab land, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and respect for the right of return of Palestinian refugees.[1]

The campaign was started on 9 July 2005.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 02:11 AM

Anyone baffled by those references to historians by Jim and Greg, just see my replies on the Christmas Truce thread.
thread.cfm?threadid=133984&messages=721&page=1&desc=yes


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM

"Anyone baffled by those references to historians by Jim and Greg"
Yup - that's what I said; an extremely long thread which you dominated with jingoism, invented a bunch of historians who didn't even say what you claim them to have said, and called word war one veterans liars because their experiences didn't tie up with your re-writing of history, topped off by an excellent television series on WW1 which left your case in shreds - "who could ask for anything more", as the song says.
Anyway - mustn't allow ourselves to be diverted.
Israel has a history of war atrocities, involvements in massacres, usage of heavy artillery and chemicals on impoverished farmers and besieged house-dwellers.
A peace treaty was set up - Israel immediately announced the continuation, eventually acceleration of "Israeli only" settlements on seized and disputed lands, sent troops into neighbouring countries, attempted to ethnically cleanse a nomadic community... and a whole host of recognisably hostile acts designed to wreck the peace conference unless it guarantees all their expansionist aims.
It is in the process of setting up an apartheid state and has been recognised as doing so by protesters from within and without Israel - the only reason the Israeli regime is not facing human rights abuses is the intervention of the U.S. with over 100 vetoes in the U.N.
last year an ex head of Israel's own security service deplored what Israel had become, visibly stopping himself describing it as a 'Nazi' state - five others more or less backed up his description of what was happening (see the documentary - The Gatekeepers)      
Israel is a terrorist state with nuclear capability, so we can all sleep east because "it has God on its side" we are told.
Now let's hear it for gallant little Israel
And please do not try to turn this into another of our Tweedledum-Tweedledee exercises with thread-drift - my reference to your 'historians' applies to all your contributions nowadays which invariably end with your scurrying behind "experts" and "historians" when you run out of arguments, or, in Israel's case, "They said they didn't do it".
Now what were you saying about Israel being devoid of all sin....?   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 04:42 AM

I scurry behind experts and historians because I can.
I back up my views with hard evidence.
How you hate that, and have no answer to it.
In the face of overwhelming hard evidence from historians and documentaries, you fled the WW1 thread, and pretend on this thread it is not so.
You lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 07:32 AM

Yeh, yeh - we know all that you swept the board with the vote, didn't you (whoops sorry - forgot - you declared yourself "infallible" so it' didn't matter anyway.
Now - stop thread-drifting and tell us why the Israeli regime is apparently as infallible as you declare yourself to be?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 14 - 07:47 AM

Huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 Feb 14 - 11:40 AM

"As often as not, the actions that most effectively advance the goal of peaceful coexistence are taken by people who would never think to refer to themselves as peace activists. A new planned city called Rawabi [Hills] is going up in the West Bank. A Palestinian company called Massar International is building it with the approval and cooperation of Israel. The first 600 Palestinian families are scheduled to move in this summer. Phase one will represent a private investment of one billion US dollars in Palestine and will house 25,000 Palestinians in what will be the largest construction project in recorded Palestinian history.

Bashar Al-Masri is the managing director of Rawabi. Speaking about buying supplies in Israel he said, "It makes no difference to us if the company is Israeli, Italian or German.. It is a mistake to separate our economy from Israel's. Projects like this bring our peoples closer together: Israelis come to the site, they are exposed to Palestinians, and they realize there's no risk in coming here. There is a sense of comfort."

In Rawabi, the brand-new Palestinian city, both sides win


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:30 AM

The punching bag bigots of anti-Israel boycotts

The practitioners of anti-Israel boycott bigotry are bent upon disrupting the free flow of knowledge, academic discourse and civilizational advancement in the Western World. They must not be allowed to do so, for we are all in peril if they are, says Vijeta Uniyal of Indian Friends of Israel

The Italian philosopher and politician Niccolò Machiavelli famously said: "Never attempt to win by force what can be won by deception". After decades of aggression failed to destroy Israel, deception is the "new" game in town.

This deception has a name, or to be precise, a lame sounding acronym -- BDS, the campaign of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel.

The BDS campaign has two main ingredients -- one is deception and the other is another kind of lie. There's the sinister deception about the campaign's own true nature, and a blatant lie about the state of Israel.

The otherwise vocal BDS campaign remains eerily silent about its ties and sympathies with terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The campaign lures in faith-based Christian groups, and LBGT community and feminist groups while at the same time hiding its ties with the homophobic and misogynist clerical regime of Iran.

Yes, indeed. The BDS campaign calls for an academic and cultural boycott of Israel, while doing the bidding of its masters in Tehran who offer bounties on the heads of writers abroad and hang poets for penning dissenting verses at home.

The BDS campaign targets and maligns Israel, the only functioning democracy and liberal-minded multi-ethnic society in the Middle East -- a country that doesn't discriminate negatively against its citizens on the basis of gender, sexual orientation or faith; and where every citizen has access to an impartial judiciary for redressing grievances regardless of faith or ethnicity.

The terrible beauty of the BDS campaign is that it does not have to bind itself to facts. This fact-free campaign is all about emotions. The campaign scouts interest groups, communities and campuses for "grievances". Their game plan is to whip up emotions, ratchet up the hate, and present the mob with a target, namely Israel.

The fact that their issues and grievances have nothing to do with Israel doesn't really bother BDS campaigners.

There is something for everyone. An all-inclusive package to fight "evil corporations", "apartheid", "racism", "militarism", "gender oppression" -- or any other perceived discriminations. On university campuses all across Europe and North America, the BDS's message is simple: "If you have a grievance worth getting mad about, we have just the right punching bag for you."

The BDS campaign camouflages itself as the reincarnation of the Résistance, the Civil-Rights Movement or the Gandhian Civil-Disobedience movement in our times. The fact that it has nothing to do with the reality of Israel isn't allowed to dampen the mood at this anti-Israel slugfest.

On the other hand, those in the western liberal academia and self-proclaimed "civil society" also have no big qualms about hopping on a bandwagon driven by Hamas or Hezbollah.

The question worth asking would be; what drives elements like Hamas and Hezbollah to hate Israel. It is not about the "settlements", the "refugees" and the "occupation". It is about the very existence of Israel; the existence of a free, humane and enlightened society in a neighborhood of bigotry, despotism and tyranny.

The contempt and hatred of Israel is in fact contempt and hatred of Western Democracy and Civilization. The radical Left in the West hates the values signified by Israel just as much as the religious supremacists in the Arab world do. It is a match made in hell in which the BDS campaign plays cupid bringing these sadists and masochists together to form an unholy alliance.

It would be hilarious, if it wasn't so tragic. The BDS campaign uses the avenues and free spaces provided by the liberal and open societies to hit at the very core of values that built them in the first place. It uses University campuses, faculty unions and student bodies to divide and polarize. It targets trade unions, local communities and churches to spread the mean-spirited gospel of BDS.

The BDS campaign will never achieve its intended goal of "bringing Israel to its knees". However, it is bound to have unintended consequences.

The practitioners of BDS are bent upon disrupting the free flow of knowledge, academic discourse and civilizational advancement in the Western World. They must not be allowed to do so, for we are all in peril if they are.

Vijeta Uniyal is an Indian entrepreneur based in Germany. He is founder of "Indian Friends of Israel", an initiative of Indian Diaspora in Europe to promote friendship between India and Israel. The article reflects the personal view of the author.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:20 AM

The article reflects the personal view of the author.

Whoopee. Another loonie heard from.

The otherwise vocal BDS campaign remains eerily silent about its ties and sympathies with terrorist groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Evidence? Proofs? Or just more of the usual BullBooBadShit?

The contempt and hatred of Israel is in fact contempt and hatred of Western Democracy and Civilization.

Now that IS pure BullBooBadBatShit.

Yup, Robin Shepherd, neo-conservative warrior, creator of "The Commentator" website and his paid lackey Vijeta Uniyal.

This is even below your usual standard of nonsense, BooBad.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:29 AM

So?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM

Do you think that it would be possible to discuss your differences without the insults?

Bigots? The Palestinians and Israelis are the same race. Certainly they are as closely related as Swedes and Spaniards.

BullBooBadShit?


Come on!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 11:07 AM

Greg is not worth getting worked up over - I consider him with the same part of my brain with which I consider mosquitoes.

To All Israel Boycotters


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 11:36 AM

Bobad, Perhaps you do not understand commerce. Perhaps you do not understand intellectual property? Perhaps you don't understand medical research? Perhaps it is rhetoric that you do not understand.

I am very happy to boycott goods and services produced on occupied land and companies which supply goods and services used in the occupation of that land.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 11:53 AM

Perhaps you don't know what BDS is really about. As Omar Barghouti, a graduate student at Tel Aviv University and BDS founder, admits, "If the occupation ends . . . would that end support for BDS? No it wouldn't—no."

BDS is a movement motivated by hatred of Jews and a desire to see the end of the Jewish state.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:01 PM

Greg is not worth getting worked up over

Agreed, BooBad.

However, your constant stream of "My Zionism, right or wrong" ceartinly IS.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:03 PM

"I am very happy to boycott goods and services produced on occupied land and companies which supply goods and services used in the occupation of that land."


The problem is that unless you are boycotting

the US ( Native Americans),
Canada ( Native Americans)
Australia (Aboriginals),
China (Tibetans),
Russia (Chechnyians)
Iran (Ba'hias)

and a number of other nations, and those THEY do business with, the BDS is really aimed at Israel- and if ALL those who oppose anything Obama does do so because they are racist, as many here at Mudcat claim, that indicates that those who pick on Israel are doing so because it is the ONLY Jewish state and they are Anti-Jew..

In fact, a boycott of Israel will hurt the Palestinian economy far more than the Israeli one.



I note not one comment about the Arab states that

Prohibit Palestinians from settling as citizens
Have driven out MORE Jewish refugees than the number of Palestinians who fled Israel
Have Laws against JEWS (Not Israelis) limiting their rights


Nor do I see one mention of the Jews AND Christians ( pre-Israel) driven out of the West Bank
in 1948. I guess that the rights you are fighting to give to Palestinian Muslims do not apply to those Palestinians who are Jewish or Christian?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:09 PM

Hi Bruce, Your points are noted. Do you believe that I support BDS because I am "ANTI-Jew?" I do not.

bobad,

The Jewish state is going to end. It is not geopolitically or democratically stable. Theocratic government is an anachronism, just as the racial elite was in South Africa.

BDS is a way for the racists in Israel to save face and concede power over others for economic reasons without going down fighting and starting World War III. I think we will see one or the other in our lifetimes. I prefer peace.

By the way, do you think that people who opposed Apartheid should be refused heart transplants?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:14 PM

Jack,

I respectfully await your explanation why ISRAEL should be held to standards you do not apply to the US, Canada, Russia, China, Australia, Iran,or the Vatican?


Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:33 PM

"Theocratic government is an anachronism"

If you believe Israel is a theocratic government I suggest you inform yourself on what constitutes a theocratic government.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 01:25 PM

"The problem is that unless you are boycotting.... "
Once again - they're all doing it so why can't Israel be left aloone to do it
No other stat is systematically ethnically cleansing entire cultural groups to make an apartheid-like state - as did South Africa.
Boo-boo put in in a nutshell - "our economy is booming" (he might have added "we have nuclear weapons and the U.S. veto behind us) "so we can do what the **** we like to who we like.
Under pressure, U.S. support is crumbling, South Africa finally wilted under international pressure - i's about time the world was rid of this racist regime that is doing as much damage to the Jewish people as it is to the peace and safety of the rest of the world.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 01:35 PM

>>From: bobad - PM
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 12:33 PM

"Theocratic government is an anachronism"

If you believe Israel is a theocratic government I suggest you inform yourself on what constitutes a theocratic government. <<


There are a lot of words for how Israel and the people within its claimed borders are governed. Theocratic is partly descriptive and by far the kindest word.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:05 PM

A theocratic government is one that is run by a singular religious group such as Judaism..

Zionism is predicated on a religious view based on it's version of a religious scripture
purporting to be inclusive but is not as Rabbis control Israel and influence its foreign policies. What is going on in the Mid-east today is a religious war.

The BDS has in its policy statement declared that non-violent resistance is the only effective way of dealing with Israel. Palestinians have no military means to establish their rights, being opposed by the superior technological weaponry of Israel and the U.S. including the threat of nuclear use.

The repressive and brutal Netanyahu dictatorship oppressing the rights of Palestinians in obtaining their own state, the expansion of the settlements as a part of ethnic cleansing,
throwing Palestinians out of their homes by bulldozing, killing non-combative bystanders,
many of them children forced into poverty, has incensed the BDS movement, many of them people of Jewish heritage.

Throughout the world, Israel is a pariah, a war-mongering government, deteriorating as a governing society, basing its actions on military repression and religious fanaticism.

Zionist fanatics, propagandists, who rationalize their violation of human rights by shamefully invoking the "holocaust", another egregious violation, would have you believe a lie instead of the truth that the BDS movement is not about destroying Israel, but saving it by turning it from a theocratic dictatorship into a democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:15 PM

I respectfully await your explanation why ISRAEL should be held to standards you do not apply to the US, Canada, & etc.....

Here's a novel idea for you Bruce: instead of giving the government of Israel a pass based on the logic of a two-year-old (But Mommy! Johnny did it first!) how about working to bring ALL of the nations you name up to the same standard?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:49 PM

I offer the past and present levels of Muslim population in Israel compared with the past and present levels of Jewish and Christian population in the Arab nations as proof they the statements expressed by Stringsinger are lacking in a relationship to reality.



640,000 Palestinians fled Israel in 1948.

820,000 Jewish Arabs fled Arab nations in 1948.



Israel settled about 550,000 of the displaced Arab Jews. Most of the rest went to the US or South America.

Arab nations refused to settle the displaced Arab Muslims.



And you boycott ISRAEL?????????

Yet I note NO claim that Pakistani Muslims should be given back land in India, or that Indian Hindus should be given back their land in Pakistan or Bangladesh. Why is that?

No call for Arab nations to give back property to Jewish refugees.

But I keep hearing how Israel should give back land to the Arab Muslims. How about if the West Bank became a Christian nation, to be settled by the Christian Arabs driven out in 1948- 1967?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:53 PM

Like I said, Bruce: "Mommie--- MOMMIE! Johnny did it first!!!

(That makes it all OK)


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:55 PM

So, GregF,

What you are saying is that it is OK for everybody but the Jews to do it?

Or is it that you ONLY object to Jews doing it?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 02:58 PM

If a free and fair election were held today in the land that Israel claims. There would be no Israel. Can you claim that about the USA or any of the other countries you mentioned?

Israel does not have the right to turn back the clock to the beginning of colonialism. Palestine in the 2,000's is not America in the 1600's


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:06 PM

Jack,

Are you aware of the history of Mandate Palestine?

77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"


Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:12 PM

"If a free and fair election were held today in the land that Israel claims. There would be no Israel. Can you claim that about the USA or any of the other countries you mentioned?"


Iran, China, and probably Russia, at least. The governments would be entirely replaced, and possibly those nations broken up into various ethnic nations.

Indonesia and the Philippines are other possibilities.




I do not that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:22 PM

What you are saying is that it is OK for everybody but the Jews to do it?

No, you made that up.

Or is it that you ONLY object to Jews doing it?

No, you made that up as well.

You need work on your English comprehension sklls, Bruce.

Also, Right, Bruce - "Mommie Mommie, Johnny did it, too!!!"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:30 PM

"No, you made that up"
Hiding behind "The Jews" has become a stock get-out for atrocity apologists such as Bruccie and Boo Boo.
It is deeply Antisemitic to blame "the Jews" for the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Israeli regime - doesn't seem to stop them doing it though
These crimes are ISRAELI not "Jewish" as the Antisemites would have us believe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:30 PM

"No, you made that up"
Hiding behind "The Jews" has become a stock get-out for atrocity apologists such as Bruccie and Boo Boo.
It is deeply Antisemitic to blame "the Jews" for the war crimes and atrocities committed by the Israeli regime - doesn't seem to stop them doing it though
These crimes are ISRAELI not "Jewish" as the Antisemites would have us believe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:38 PM

Bruce,

I don't think that China and Iran would cease to exist if there was a free and fair election. Most of the people within their borders are Chinese and Iranian. Israel is more like Apartheid South Africa. The governing elites are a minority and becoming more so.

BTW, I am not trying to convince you or anyone else of this. It is just my opinion that the Zionist experiment of a pure Jewish homeland has failed. I prefer peace to war.

BDS ended minority rule in South Africa and I believe it will in Palestine as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:08 PM

"There are a lot of words for how Israel and the people within its claimed borders are governed. Theocratic is partly descriptive and by far the kindest word."

And I guess the fact that it's a blatant lie doesn't matter - just one more lie with which to slander and hate.

"A theocratic government is one that is run by a singular religious group such as Judaism.."

If you are implying that this is representative of Israel's government then that is a fucking ignorant statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:22 PM

I guess the fact that the "Palestinians" who work for Jewish owned businesses in the west bank oppose BDS and are happy with their jobs and salaries means nothing to the boycotters who are so patronizingly doing what they believe is good for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:31 PM

"I guess the fact that the "Palestinians" who work for Jewish owned businesses in the west bank oppose BDS and are happy with their jobs and salaries means nothing to the boycotters who are so patronizingly doing what they believe is good for them. "

I suppose that their "happiness" is the reason that they are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections? :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:41 PM

"I suppose that their "happiness" is the reason that they are not allowed to vote in Israeli elections?"

Huh???


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 04:54 PM

As I said to Bruce, Bobad. I'm not trying to convince you. I've expressed my opinion on what will happen, I think you have expressed your opinion on my opinion very clearly.

Are we done?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 05:04 PM

"Before boycotting, they should think of the workers who are going to suffer," says a young man shivering in the pre-dawn darkness in Azzariah, a West Bank town cut off from work opportunities in Jerusalem by the concrete Israeli separation wall. Previously, he earned 20 shekels ($6) a day plucking and cleaning chickens; now he makes nearly 10 times that at SodaStream, which also provides transportation, breakfast, and lunch."

Palestinian workers back Scarlett Johansson's opposition to SodaStream boycott


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 06:32 PM

"It is just my opinion that the Zionist experiment of a pure Jewish homeland has failed."

Another blatant lie. Israel's population is 23% non Jewish who enjoy equal rights under Israel's laws. You do know that professing these kind of lies make you look like an anti-semite don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:43 PM

I don't want to argue definitions with you Bobad.

BDS of Israel are 'Gathering Weight.'


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:47 AM

"Do you think that it would be possible to discuss your differences without the insults?"
.,,.
Very good question, Jack.

Unhappily, the answer would appear to be no, when it comes to potty-mouthed Greg F. I agree with whoever it was above who said he is best treated liked a buzzing mosquito, & with just as much respect. He is IMO the worst current avatar & practitioner of all that makes so many aspects of this forum a hissing & byword to so many who would like to use it for serious discussion.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 03:08 AM

"just one more lie with which to slander and hate."
There is no argument that the Israeli regime has committed the crimes that they have.
Despite the fact that they have been protected fro the consequences of them by over 100 U.S. Sabra/Shatila,, chemical weapons on schools and hospitals, expansionism, attempting to starve Palestinians into submission, creating an Apartheid state.... all are a matter of record.
The only defence for their behaviour that has ever been put forward in these arguments is "Israel says they didn't do it" and these crimes against humanity are justified because Israel has a god-given right to occupy Palestine.
The main difference between the pros and antis is that whether these crimes Israelis the majority opinion here, or "Jewish" - the usual suspects.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM


There is no argument that the Israeli regime has committed the crimes that they have.


Of course there is!
You yourself have joined in many such arguments.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 06:43 AM

"I don't want to argue definitions with you Bobad."

It's not about definitions, it's about lies and abut using them to demonize a people. Shades of "The Protocols". Shame on you.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 07:03 AM

The most recent PSR poll showed that a slim majority of Palestinians would support a two state proposal that Abbas negotiated. It also showed that Palestinians opposed a one state arrangement by a two to one margin. The latest poll of Israelis was released a couple days ago. 63% of Hebrew-speaking Israeli respondents said they would support a negotiated regional peace agreement, even before they were given any details about the hypothetical agreement. When they were given the likely provisons of the Kerry proposal, then the number who said they would support it rose to 76%. Since Netanyahu might have to create a new political party in order to get a government agreeable to the Kerry initiative, the Israelis were asked if they would support Netanyahu if he engaged in that endearvor. 56% of respondents said they would.

IPI group API poll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 08:07 AM

Still waiting, politely, for an explanation of why Arab Muslims should be given rights that Arab Jews are not ( re refugees)


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 08:47 AM

See above, Bruce RE: Mommy! Mommy! Johnny did it too!!!!!

Shades of "The Protocols". Shame on you.

Equating it to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Shame on HIM??


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 08:56 AM

Luv ya too, ~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:18 AM

Still waiting, politely, for an explanation of why Arab Muslims should be given rights that Arab Jews are not ( re refugees).


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

Because it would be a mitzvah worthy of a real mensch?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:35 AM

You are not going to get that explanation from me Bruce. Your question is too loaded with definitions and assumptions which I would have to wade through.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:46 AM

Jack,

And the statements of those supporting BDS are NOT "too loaded with definitions and assumptions which (one) would have to wade through."?


So the answer is that we cannot discuss this, but must accept YOU viewpoint without questioning it, while having the opposing viewpoint ignored?

That sound like what GregF is in favor of, but you?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:49 AM

77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"


Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?


YES or NO


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:51 AM

"The Jewish Homeland" as defined how and by whom?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 09:54 AM

By the treaty ending WW I .

Are you advocating we get rid of it- and eliminate all the OTHER nations defined and created by it? Or is it just the "Jewish Homeland" that you object to?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM

Are you advocating we get rid of it- and eliminate all the OTHER nations defined and created by it? Or is it just the "Jewish Homeland" that you object to?

None of the above.

Also, RE: the 1919 definition of "The Jewish Homeland": based on what evidence?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:07 AM

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people"

The Palestine Mandate


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:19 AM

Thanks, BooBad, but the Balfour Declaration & the League of Nations Mandate do not speak to the definition/delineation of "The Jewish Homeland" by "the treaty ending WWI".

The former DOES contain the following, however:

"...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:21 AM

Balfour Declaration, 1917
Conference of San demo, 1920
Treaty of Sevres, 1920
Treaty of Lausanne, 1923
Legue of Nations mandate 1922

In Sept, 1923, 77+% of the Mandate Palestine territory was split off, with Jewish settlement prohibited, to form the ARAB MUSLIM PALESTINIAN HOMELAND. The REMAINING 32+% was to be the "Jewish Homeland" as envisioned in the above treaties.

Feel free to negate the formation of the Jewish Homeland- S LONG AS you also negate the creation of Syria, Lebenon, Jordan,and Iraq, at a minimum.

"
Class A mandates consisted of the former Turkish provinces of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. These territories were considered sufficiently advanced that their provisional independence was recognized, though they were still subject to Allied administrative control until they were fully able to stand alone. Iraq and Palestine (including modern Jordan and Israel) were assigned to Great Britain, while Turkish-ruled Syria and Lebanon went to France. All Class A mandates had reached full independence by 1949.
Class B mandates consisted of the former German-ruled African colonies of Tanganyika, parts of Togoland and the Cameroons, and Ruanda-Urundi. The Allied powers were directly responsible for the administration of these mandates but were subject to certain controls intended to protect the rights of the mandates' native peoples. Tanganyika (which is now part of Tanzania) was assigned to Britain, while most of the Cameroons and Togoland were assigned to France, and Ruanda-Urundi (now Rwanda and Burundi) went to Belgium.
Class C mandates consisted of various former German-held territories that mandatories subsequently administered as integral parts of their territory: South West Africa (now Namibia, assigned to South Africa), New Guinea (assigned to Australia), Western Samoa (now Samoa, assigned to New Zealand), the islands north of the Equator in the western Pacific (Japan), and Nauru (Australia, with Britain and New Zealand)."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:24 AM

"...it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

Negated by the 1923 decision by the Mandate Power (Great Britain) to divide the Mandate territory ( In violation of the stated terms of the Mandate) and provide a Muslim ONLY nation in the greater part 9TransJordan) where Jewish settlement was prohibited..


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:28 AM

>>Jack,

And the statements of those supporting BDS are NOT "too loaded with definitions and assumptions which (one) would have to wade through."?


So the answer is that we cannot discuss this, but must accept YOU viewpoint without questioning it, while having the opposing viewpoint ignored?<<<

I'm not defending the statements supporting BDS. I don't even know what they are. It is not a matter of rhetoric for me.

You and I are friends. I have expressed my opinions about the effects of BDS, you have said why you think what I said is wrong. We can just leave it at that.

The reasons for the mass immigration of pan Arab Jews to Israel, are myriad and extremely complex. Suffice it to say that you seem to be saying that the only reason for that migration is that the Jews were forced out of Egypt, or Jordan or Iraq and that they had no place to go. I know that they were recruited by Israel and that there were other factors. Rather than get into that. I prefer to let your challenge stand, unquestioned.

I don't mind discussing the issue as a favor to you. But it has to be with the understanding that I am not trying to change your mind and I am not trying to change yours and that we both know where we stand already.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:34 AM

Jack: "
"The Palestinians and Israelis are the same race. Certainly they are as closely related as Swedes and Spaniards."

Yet the charge of Israel being racist has been put out here without any comment against it.


The Conflict is RELIGIOUS:

On one side you have the Muslims, who have driven out other religions (Bahai, Christian, Jewish)

On the other you have Israel, which

"Religion in Israel is a central feature of the country and plays a major role in shaping Israeli culture and lifestyle, and religion has played a central role in Israel's history. Israel is also the only country in the world where a majority of citizens are Jewish. According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics, the population in 2011 was 75.4% Jewish, 20.6% Arab, and 4.1% minority groups.[1] The religious affiliation of the Israeli population[vague] as of 2011 was 75.4% Jewish, 16.9% Muslim, 2.1% Christian, and 1.7% Druze, with the remaining 4.0% not classified by religion.[2]
Israel has no entrenched constitution, but freedom of religion is anchored in law. While the Basic Laws of Israel that serve in place of a constitution define the country as a "Jewish state," these Basic Laws, coupled with Knesset statutes, decisions of the Supreme Court of Israel, and various elements of the common law current in Israel, also protect free practice of religion in the country.[3][4] Legal accommodation of the non-Jewish communities follows the pattern and practice of the Ottoman and British administrations with some important modifications. Israeli law officially recognizes five religions, all belonging to the Abrahamic family of religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Druzeism and the Bahá'í Faith. Furthermore, the law formally recognizes ten separate sects of Christianity: the Roman, Armenian, Maronite, Greek, Syriac, and Chaldean Catholic Churches; the Eastern Orthodox Greek Orthodox Church; the Oriental Orthodox Syriac Orthodox Church; the Armenian Apostolic Church; and Anglicanism.[5] Members of unrecognized religions are free to practice their religion.[3]"





Stringsinger:"Propaganda instead of facts. The UN didn't know they were about to kick out the people who were displaced otherwise they might have reconsidered."

This statement is contrary to reality. Look at 1936 - 1939.

It is a lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:36 AM

Negated by the 1923 decision by the Mandate Power...

Negated? How so?

negate the formation of the Jewish Homeland

I'm doing no such thing. I'm asking you how "The Jewish Homeland" per "the treaty ending WW I" was defined & delineated & based on what evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:39 AM

FYI, about the mandate and UN declarations etc. I don't recognize the power of Britain or the UN to give away land that doesn't belong to them or indeed to meddle in the affairs of other states through the use of "declarations." History for the past 65 years, shows that Israelis do not put much store in UN declarations as well.

I do recognize the right and the power of people and countries to buy goods and services from whoever they please. Our carbonator is Primo, not soda stream.

I will never again rent a movie because Scarlett Johanson is the star as long as she supports the Palestinian aparthied. Small things I know, but more effective than mere talk.

I also recognize that Zionists, Christian or otherwise also have a right to vote wither their own pocketbooks.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:46 AM

Re: Theocracies

"ALL of (Vatican )City's actual citizens are Catholic as are all the places of worship."


Jack,

"The reasons for the mass immigration of pan Arab Jews to Israel, are myriad and extremely complex. Suffice it to say that you seem to be saying that the only reason for that migration is that the Jews were forced out of Egypt, or Jordan or Iraq and that they had no place to go. I know that they were recruited by Israel and that there were other factors. Rather than get into that. I prefer to let your challenge stand, unquestioned. "

Agreed, but so are the reasons that SOME of the Arab Muslims left Israel- A far larger percentage of Arab Muslims stayed in Israel than the number of Arab Jews who remained in Arab nations


"I don't mind discussing the issue as a favor to you. But it has to be with the understanding that I am not trying to change your mind and I am not trying to change yours and that we both know where we stand already."

I do not expect to change other's minds- most of those who support BDS do not seem willing to discuss reality, and many seem willing to apply their "fairness" standards to ONLY one side of the issue. But when I see a lie- ( statement contrary to reality, known to be false) presented, I will point it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:53 AM

do not seem willing to discuss reality, and many seem willing to apply their "fairness" standards to ONLY one side of the issue.

Hmmmm......

Bruce: do look in the mirror & encourage BoBad to do so as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:54 AM

Jack,

"FYI, about the mandate and UN declarations etc. I don't recognize the power of Britain or the UN to give away land that doesn't belong to them or indeed to meddle in the affairs of other states through the use of "declarations." History for the past 65 years, shows that Israelis do not put much store in UN declarations as well."

Once the ARABS refused to acknowledge the UN declaration of the state of Israel, AND THE UN STOOD BY WHEN THE ARAB LEAGUE ATTACKED, Israel had no reason to recognize later UN resolutions



"I do recognize the right and the power of people and countries to buy goods and services from whoever they please. Our carbonator is Primo, not soda stream."

I agree- but the selection to boycott ONLY the "Jewish" state, when other nations have done as bad or worse appears to reasonable people to be… anti-Jewish.



"I will never again rent a movie because Scarlett Johanson is the star as long as she supports the Palestinian aparthied. Small things I know, but more effective than mere talk."

Your choice.

"I also recognize that Zionists, Christian or otherwise also have a right to vote wither their own pocketbooks."

Exactly.

But to be consistent, BDS needs to be willing to boycott nations persecuting Jews, Christians, and Ba'hais. So far I have seen no indication of any targets other than Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 10:57 AM

"
"I also recognize that Zionists, Christian or otherwise also have a right to vote wither their own pocketbooks.""

BTW, this would include any efforts by Israel to blockade Gaza and other territories from commerce WITH ISRAEL. correct?

After all , all the Palestinian territories have borders with other nations ( Egypt, Jordan) so Irael should not be forced to finance those who have stated their goals are the destruction of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:00 PM

"I don't recognize the power of Britain or the UN to give away land that doesn't belong to them or indeed to meddle in the affairs of other states through the use of "declarations.""

So the UN does NOT have the right to tell Israel what to do with the West Bank???


It was acquired in a war- JUST as the Allied Powers acquired the lands of the Ottoman Empire and split them up into those countries that you accept all of save Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:03 PM

"
BTW, this would include any efforts by Israel to blockade Gaza and other territories from commerce WITH ISRAEL. correct?
"

You seem to be claiming that a boycott of goods and services exported to my country is the same as a military blockade of a concentration camp set up by the country that created that camp.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:23 PM

You mean it ain't, Jack?

Tthere ya go again,with "not ... willing to discuss reality, and many seem willing to apply their "fairness" standards to ONLY one side of the issue".

yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 12:35 PM

"You seem to be claiming that a boycott of goods and services exported to my country is the same as a military blockade of a concentration camp set up by the country that created that camp."


No, ++I++ am claiming that Gaza and the West Bank have a border with other countries, so Israel is under no obligation to allor transport THROUGH Israel for Palestinian goods in OR out.

Have you any evidence of this "concentration camp " besides Palestinian propaganda?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:16 PM

so Israel is under no obligation

Absolutely true- the Israeli government is under no OBLIGATION to act fairly, morally, justly, or even in accord with the humanitarian precepts of the Torah.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:27 PM

SO?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:34 PM

SO?

And therein lies the problem...........


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:40 PM

Since NO other nation is under that obligation, your singling out Israel for criticism is proof of your anti-Jewish bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:45 PM

Jesus (or Moses) wept.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 01:56 PM

Jesus would weep, at your attempts to justify your bigotry.

I do note that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?



77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"

Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:03 PM

Since NO other nation is under that obligation, your singling out Israel for criticism is proof of your anti-Jewish bigotry.

Forgot to thank you Bruce, for your tacit admission that the government of Israel is, in fact, engaged in immoral, unjust, unfair, anti-humanitarian activities, in contradiction and contravention of the teachings of the Torah.

AND that you have no problem with this.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:08 PM

Thank YOU for your tacit admission that you are a religious bight, and are engaged in a hate-campaign against Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:10 PM

And that you are proud of the fact that you hold Jews to standards you refuse to apply to any other group.

Your hate and bigotry is out in the open.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:11 PM

Look up boycott and blockade and get back to me OK?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:13 PM

Israel killing kids

This is what's going on.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:14 PM

The government of Israel is under NO obligation to engage in immoral, unjust, unfair, anti-humanitarian activities, in contradiction and contravention of the teachings of the Torah, either- However, YOU have given your tacit approval for any OTHER nation to act that way, as long as it not Jews being allowed to act in self-preservation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:17 PM

Jack,

Fine, I mis-spoke.

Israel has the right to refuse to allow Palestinian goods and people in, through, or out of Israel, boycotting those peoples that have stated their goal is the destruction of the state of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:23 PM

Stringsinger,

And YOUR criticism of Hamas and Hezboallah for launching anti-personnel rockets aimed at civilian areas in Israel ( a war crime by all standards?

And your comment on the fact that Hezboallah has claimed to have over 100,000 rockets in Lebanon, in violation of the 2006 Truce terms? And have stated an intent to attack Israeli CIVILIANS with them?


Dead children are fine with you as long as they are Israelis.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:24 PM

Call it what you want, Gaza, Israel and the West Bank of the Jordon River are all the same place all subject to the military rule of the IDF. The Zionists did not clear the original inhabitants when they started to colonize and now it is too late.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:27 PM

But the Arabs Muslims DID clear off the Arab Jews and Christians from the West Bank when they took it militarily in 1948, so it is now OK for them to claim it?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:37 PM

I think that the morality went out of this conflict long ago and the Zionists were heavily involved in that.

I don't think Israel, as it is today is geopolitically or democratically stable. As ethnic political divisions fade in importance, so will Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 02:44 PM

I respectfully disagree, both with your evaluation and your conclusions.

The destruction of Israel as a viable state will cause far more suffering in the region as the Sunnis and Shiites fight each other, and wipe out any other groups ( Ba'hai, Christian, Druze, etc).


Syrian Muslims over the last year have killed far more Arab Muslims than Israel has over the last 66 years.

A case could be made that JORDANIAN Muslims have killed more Palestinians than Israel has in total.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 05:38 PM

Bruce is apparently off his meds again, and is rapidly reverting to the old ranting, slobbering Bull####Bruce personna. Shame, that.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Feb 14 - 05:44 PM

Syrian Muslims over the last year have killed far more Arab Muslims than Israel has over the last 66 years. A case could be made that JORDANIAN Muslims have killed more Palestinians than Israel has in total.

And thus, as far as you are concerned, that makes Israel's killing of Muslims and Palestinians perfectly all right.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 10:13 AM

AIPAC down

AIPAC is losing ground.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 14 - 10:30 AM

One can only hope, Strings.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:36 AM

A must for Israeli atrocity apologists - I don't think.
From the Sunday Times Culture supplement:
"Every picture tells...
5 Broken Cameras (BBC4, 10.30pm)
In 2005, Emad Burnat, a Palestinian farmer living in the West Bank, bought a video camera to film his newborn fourth son. He also began filming his fellow villagers' demonstrations against the building of a barrier that cut them off from their land, which was given to Jewish settlers — protests that over five years would involve confrontations with Israeli troops, with activists killed or severely injured, and elicit support for their cause from politicians and foreign volunteers. By turns stirring and shocking, Burnat's remarkable video diary (co-directed by Guy Davidi) was nominated for the best documentary Oscar in 2012. John Dugdale and Helen Stewart"

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:41 AM

Sorry - omitted to say that the documentary is on BBC4 tomorrow night
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM

Let's call BS on the BDS


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:28 AM

Waste of time, I fear, Bobad. Everyone with a ½d-worth of sense will know that J Carroll & Greg F are Founder Members & Joint Presidents of the much revered [in some ◯s] MMMUPDCMWFS*.

~M~

*My·Mind's·Made·Up·Please·Don't·Confuse·Me·With·Facts Society.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:37 AM

...Which will be Carroll's cue, I daresay, for him to tell me yet again that he & I have nothing to say to one another: an astonishing piece of impertinence whose constant iteration has become a sort of tic of his. So I will point out, yet again, that if he considers himself to have nothing to say to me, that is his privilege; but it confers on him not the remotest right or authority to tell me, or to endeavour to control, to whom I have anything to say; the sole decision as to which shall remain with me, without the leave of him or anybody else.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

"There is no need to explain facts to people who clearly don't care about the truth and focus only on bigotry, lies, and anti-Semitic discrimination."

Let's call BS on the BDS


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 09:24 AM

Good luck with that Bobad.


I read your article.

"Russia is violating Human rights so Israel should be allowed to." is not an argument that sways my thinking. If I had a chance to buy Russian goods. I wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM

*My·Mind's·Made·Up·Please·Don't·Confuse·Me·With·Facts Society."
At least we express our opinions rather than have a couple of morons to take the flak while you stay back at back in the bunker keeping your mind unsullied by argument.
Must be reminiscent of Uni. days, having a couple of fags at your beck-and call again - yarroo, you beast, leggo my ear!!
"If I had a chance to buy Russian goods. I wouldn't"
How do you know you aren't Jack - Russia is on the side of the angels now.
trade
Bet you buy Chinese goods.
Yours as ever,
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 09:48 AM

"Russia is violating Human rights so Israel should be allowed to."

You obviously didn't read the same article or are lying again. This is what it said:

"Last week a big chunk of the world sat glued to their TVs following the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia. Not a single country, or any individual athletes, chose to boycott the event. Even though we all know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that the most atrocious human rights violations are taking place on a daily basis in that country.

So. While LGBT-activists were being abducted, raped and beaten in Russia, political activists around the world choose to focus their energy and resources on demonizing the one country in the Middle East where gay people can live freely, safely and openly?"

As is obvious to anyone with minimal comprehension he is pointing out that Israel, unlike Russia, is NOT violating human rights yet it is being vilified while other states that are, in fact egregiously violating human rights are ignored. But you knew that, didn't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 10:17 AM

My·Mind's·Made·Up·Please·Don't·Confuse·Me·With·Facts Society

Time for BooBad & MGM to look in the mirror once again, methinks, being President and Corresponding Secretary of said society.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 11:08 AM

"President and Corresponding Secretary of said society."
Nah - Mike prefers to operate from behind the scene and Boo-Boo appears not to have the initiative to join anything without holding someone's hand - I don't think Yogi would have approved - he was a "good bear Mister Ranger".
As for him 'writing' (isn't that what secretaries are supposed to do) - cut-'n-pasting maybe!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:17 PM

"As is obvious to anyone with minimal comprehension he is pointing out that Israel, unlike Russia, is NOT violating human rights "

This conclusion operates under the premise that Palestinians are not human and therefore have no rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:36 PM

The Palestinians in Israel have the same rights as Israelis under the law but let's not let facts get in the way of reality as that would spoil the narrative of those who love to hate Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 12:50 PM

"Under The Law", Blacks in the U.S. had the same rights as Whites following the ratification of the 15th Amendment on February 3, 1870.

Care to try that again, there, BooBad?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM

"Under The Law", Blacks in the U.S. had the same rights as Whites following the ratification of the 15th Amendment on February 3, 1870."

And that has what to do with the Palestinians and other non-Jewish Israeli's having equal rights in Israel GooGuest?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 02:26 PM

"And that has what to do with the Palestinians and other non-Jewish Israeli's having equal rights in Israel"
Ignoring the situation in Israel, where even some of its own citizens have taken to describing it as an "Apartheid state" does not make your continuing unqualified claim anything other than a lie   
From - the 'Or report':
"Civil rights
Main article: Ethnic discrimination in IsraelDirected at Arabs
The Israeli Declaration of Independence stated that the State of Israel would ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex, and guaranteed freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture.
While formally equal according to Israeli law, a number of official sources acknowledge that Arab citizens of Israel experience discrimination in many aspects of life. Israeli High Court Justice (Ret.) Theodor Or wrote in The Report by the State Commission of Inquiry into the Events of October 2000:[182]
The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/israel_studies/v011/11.2or.html

Published March 2011.
The definition of Israel as "the Jewish State" or "the State of the Jewish People" makes inequality a practical, political and ideological reality for Palestinian citizens of Israel.
The State of Israel, as an ethnocracy or "ethnic nationstate", is systematically failing to adopt effective measures to redress the gaps that exist between the Palestinian minority and the Jewish majority. By privileging Jewish citizens in many fields, the state actively preserves and even widens these gaps.

The inequality Report
"The Inequality Report details some of the main legal, political and policy structures that institutionalize and entrench discrimination against the Palestinian minority in Israel."
The Inequality Report

The last time I put up 'The Inequality Report' one of the 'usual suspects' braindead said there was too much to read; another said it couldn't be believed because "it was written by Arabs" - that is how "equal" these twots believe Arabs to be - they don't even believe their own lies.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM

The thing that really puzzles me is how Mr Carroll J contrives to stagger about the world so insouciantly, under the intolerable weight of that jumbo-size chip that he carries on his shoulder...


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 07:43 PM

The speech that swayed the vote against BDS at UCLA.

Ben Shapiro


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Mar 14 - 08:33 PM

The emotional breakdown of a UCLA student after the defeat of the anti-Israel BDS vote:

Waaaah!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:27 AM

"The thing that really puzzles me is how Mr Carroll "
Not the only thing that puzzles you obviously.
That you and your band of brother choose to ignore the facts of Israeli terrorism doesn't make them any less facts and only serves to underline your own positions as atrocity and ethic-cleansing deniers.
Name calling and insult hurling is no substitute for argument.
You appear to have inherited lack of self respect from your ward - that not -long-enough spoon again - sad!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM

Name calling and insult hurling is no substitute for argument.

You laughable hypocrite Jim!
No-one is more guilty of that than you!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:56 AM

No Keith
I have no compunction in giving my opinion of people like yourself (in fact, I quite enjoy doing so) but I never substitute that for argument.
I have just given three links to major examples of inequality in Israel; you, Bob Cherry and Jimminy Cricket choose to ignore those facts; you and Cherry Major hurl insults, Boo-Boo goes his own sweet way with his cut-'n-pastes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:00 AM

I ignore nothing as you know, Jim, & deplore Israel's actions as much as you. We don't have to go into all that again, becoz it would only be repetition, & you'll only start one of your endless 'lip-service' monologues which are the most boring thing since the works of bloody Brecht. The chip I referred to was your own repetitiveness in yet again having resorted to insulting mockery of the fact that I happen to have had a university education & you haven't ~~ on this occasion, I would add, having ignorantly confused such with a public school education*, which I didn't have.

~M~


*'fags' &c, which one doesn't get at university, as you well know so why go out of your way to appear more pig-ignorant than you actually are?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:57 AM

"I ignore nothing as you know, Jim, & deplore Israel's actions as much as you."
Yes - we know you don't like olive trees being cut down - which is about as serious an accusation as you have ever made of Israel.
You have allowed Keith the moron to make your case for you and leapt to his defence whenever he got into trouble
On occasion you have resorted suggesting that those of us who feel strongly about Israel's behaviour as anti-Semites and "Jew-baiters"
You are as sad a case as he is a disgusting one
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:24 AM

Those olive-trees stuck in my craw as a peculiarly spiteful manifestation of an overall mistaken approach to the whole situation. I admit that they had a particularly symbolic significance to me; and I constantly refer to them as such, as an indicator of my complete withdrawal of any residual support or feeling of any sort of loyalty to Israel in its present avatar. I think they should be viewed as a sort of synecdoche for the unacceptability of Israel's activities.

But this in no way nullifies the undoubted fact that much expressed opposition to Israel is in fact a not particularly well-disguised form of antisemitism, as was recognised by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's 2005 working definition of antisemitism. In which context there are many who feel the terms of the vehement denunciations of the Carroll/Greg·F axis could be viewed as significantly suspect.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 06:25 AM

"Those olive-trees stuck in my craw as a peculiarly spiteful manifestation"
Thy offend me to but thay rate small against Sabra Shaitla, the Blockage, the use of chemical weapons.... all of which you have defended with either your total silence or your blanket support for Keith at the very least - praising with faint damns
I am well aware of the anti-Semitism that exists - the latest brand being to describe Israeli atrocities as "Jewish".
Rather than addressing supposed motives for criticism of Israel, why not try addressing the motives themselves - it would make a refreshing change?
"there are many who feel the terms of the vehement denunciations of the Carroll/Greg·F axis could be viewed as significantly suspect"
Actually, there aren't - just you, Keith, Boo Boo and Brucie - the sum total 'gang of four' who consistently defend these recognised atrocities and war crimes - you have the honour of being the first to have ever accused me of Anti - Semitism.
I've always considered it base cowardice to crouch behind six million dead to defend atrocities - as I said - lack of self respect
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 07:19 AM

It's Mulberry-Bush-time again.

I'm out.

שלום


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 08:09 AM

"I'm out"
In my recollection you've never been in
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:07 AM

"Under The Law", Blacks in the U.S. had the same rights as Whites following the ratification of the 15th Amendment on February 3, 1870."

And that has what to do with the Palestinians and other non-Jewish Israeli's having equal rights in Israel GooGuest?


If you're thick enough to have to ask what the difference is betweeen laws on the books and laws as implemented and enforced guess you're even more hopeless than folks think.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:31 AM

Just back in for a second in great concern!

Really worried!

Really alarmed!





Jim Carroll in imminent danger of










cutting himself severely on his razor-wit!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 10:40 AM

"I'm out"
In my recollection you've never been in
Jim Carroll

.,,.

I mean, really Jim, is that the best you can do?

How pathetic!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 11:55 AM

"How pathetic!"
My thoughts exactly - though probably not about the same subject
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

You have allowed Keith the moron
Keith, Boo Boo and
I have no compunction in giving my opinion of people like yourself (in fact, I quite enjoy doing so) but I never substitute that for argument.

Please tell us why you do insult people. It doesn't help your credibility. Many people might think it is ranting. It certainly is an expression of contempt.

You you feel that is appropriate in civil conversation. Don't you think it is not only rude to Keith and Bobad, but rude to anyone else who may be reading. I think the oppression of the Palestinian is a serious issue. I think it deserves to be discussed seriously and respectfully. How about you?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM

Patheticer & patheticer.

Poor little Jim.

Still, won't do to mock the afflicted.

Tch! Tch!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

77% of Arab citizens would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world.

77% Arab citizens wordwide, or just living in Israel? According to whom? And how was survey done?

Nice job dodging & weaving, by the way, but that still does not address the point of laws on the books vs. laws as enforced or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM

I know it must suck when facts prove you wrong and expose the bigotry of your opinions but it's never too late to become enlightened.

The source of the survey has been posted more than once in the past so I'll leave it to you to make the effort to find it for yourself. I'll give you a hint though - "Coexistence in Israel". And don't forget to post the exact question asked once you find it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:07 PM

Nice job dodging & weaving, by the way,BooBad, but that still does not address the point of laws on the books vs. laws as enforced or not.

More later.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:29 PM

In point of fact, BooBad the survey you claim was done in 2008 by The Kennedy Center(plenty has happened in the last 5 years - got a more recent survey anywhere?) shows only an error message when your link is clicked, and it was posted exactly once by you in 2010. In fairness, you did post the same nonsense multipme times in the sme thread, but only the singlwe source, which has now mysteriously disappeared.

One of the response deserves to be re-visited, viz:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: Lox - PM
Date: 08 Jun 10 - 06:07 PM

Thank you Bobad.

That information supports my view exactly.

That the current Israeli administration rides roughshod, not only over residents of Gaza, but also ignores the views of many Israelis, including the views of many Israeli Jews.

It is also my view that the Israeli administration lies to Isrealis and non Israelis alike to justify its actions.


And another:

Subject: RE: BS: New Israeli atrocity: attack on Gaza aid
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 09 Jun 10 - 03:45 PM

Per Bobad:Why in the world would 77% of it's Arab citizens say they would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Sure makes one wonder, doesn't it?

Not at all hard to understand - elementary patriotism would explain it - "This is my country - it is where I belong, and I refuse to be driven into exile".

Finally, I would once again recall to your mind U.S. history; this time the Antebellum South, where Negro slaves - a subject population- surveyed by white folks virtually universally claimed to be happy, well cared for, and that Ol' Massa was kindly.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM

RE: "plenty has happened in the last 5 years" above. my mistake.

My mistake. That should be corrected to "plenty has happened in the last 7 to 10 years"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM

Those posts you copied show that the posters didn't read the poll. I guess their research skills are as good as yours which would explain your misinformed opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:50 PM

C'mon Greggie do some work it'll be good practice for you - you might learn how to find information to inform your opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 09:07 PM

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 09:38 PM

It's for your own benefit Greggie, I'm trying to help you learn how to find information so you can have something useful to offer instead of ad hominem insults and name calling. Go ahead and give it a try, you can do it, I know you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:43 AM

Don't suppose for one minute any of the ethnic cleansers among us watched 'Five Broken Cameras' last night.
The residents of a small Palestinian village cut in half by an illegal fence - unarmed protesting villagers opposing armed settlers backed up by the Israeli Army using live rounds, gas grenades and eventually, gas missiles fired from helicopters to suppress the demonstrations.
After three years the villagers won their case in the courts and the fence was declared illegal; the settlers continued building and the soldiers went on protecting for another two years, then, after occupying the new houses that hd been built, they 'concede' removed part of the fence and 'allowed' the villages to return to some of their land.
Mike would have hated it - the settlers burnt olive trees on the land they returned!!!
Israel has become an apartheid state run by uniformed armed thugs - Nazi Germany in the sun.
Carry on ignoring Boo Boo - seig heil!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:10 AM

I found it unbearable, Jim. Tears in my eyes thruout. It was, as you say, the olive trees that carried the symbolic weight of the narrative. Can't yet bring self to say any more about it just now. Maybe later!.

~M~

You have, nevertheless, I would remind you, previously conceded the offensive inappropriateness of the use of the word 'Nazi" in this context. I never expected you'd remember, though. A dyed-in-the-wool member of any racist persuasion, including yours, doesn't change his spots. We both object to Israel's thoroughly obnoxious goings-on; but you in addition are an anti-semite I'm afraid, Jim. To cite yet again that Shaw character's locution: You think you're not, but you are. I remind you once more of the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia's 2005 statement on this precise manifestation of anti-semitism. Look it up -- and try to get something of it into that thick ☠ of yours!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 AM

The web is carrying numerous articles and comment pieces about the diminishment of AIPAC's influence over the current US administration. Another reason for me to 'fingers crossed' hope that Obama is proceeding successfully towards being a war-free US president worthy of that Nobel Peace Prize. Now if he could only stuff a fecking sock in that pugilistic loud-mouth Kerry's flapping gob!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:07 AM

Mike I can appreciate how upsetting your personal change of heart concerning Israel must be. I know a number of people of Jewish descent are challenged and aggrieved by the actions of the state of Israel. It must be the more painful to have cherished an ideal for a homeland for Jewish people for so many decades, only to have it ruined in the face of harsh reality. I think however you are quite the honourable man, to acknowledge your change of heart and the reasoning behind it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:26 AM

Thank you CS. That is greatly appreciated.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:33 AM

Sorry Mike - I really did not mean offence to you or anybody.
I came away from the film angry and saddened - tears as well.
The sight of uniformed and armed soldiers backing up an illegal eviction of villagers, even after the court had ruled it illegal still leaves me shaking.
It has become a State set on establishing itself as a singl ethnic one.
It was an ex-head of the Israeli security services who stated on camera last year that what was happening in Israel today was comparable with Nazi Germany (see The Gatekeepers)
I was raised in a family that fully supported the Israeli State; I am glad that those who spent time and energy actually fighting anti-Semitism (my Grandmother was prosecuted for throwing a stone at a Blackshirt at an open-air meeting), didn't live to see what Israel has become.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

A more balanced review of the film.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-Ed-Contributors/5-Broken-Cameras


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM

Another.
http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/02/18/fairy-tales-wont-bring-peace-five-broken-cameras-and-the-palestinian-farce/


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM

The Jerusalem Post - my apologies?
The film must have been a load of shit in that case.
All the points in the German paper were fully covered by the film itself
The film was not about Palestine - it was about the effects of an apartheid ethnic cleansing policy has on ordinary human beings.
One of the most telling moments was the mistrust shown towards Palestinian politicians who muscled in on the press interviews.
You can dredge up any dissenting reviews you wish - the film said it all
It is a superbly honest film and has been recognised as such with world-wide acclaim

"5 Broken Cameras" has been screened at a number of film festivals and won the award for best Israeli documentary at the 2012 Jerusalem Film Festival. It also took the prize for best documentary directing in the World Cinema category at the Sundance Film Festival.
It was nominated for an Academy Award in the documentary feature category this year, but lost to "Searching for Sugarman.""
Take your ethnic cleansing apologisms elsewhere you deplorable toe-rag.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

No Israeli view may be heard?
What are you afraid of hearing Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 08:44 AM

The use of the term "anti-semite" is an epithet used by those who are neither Jewish or knowledgeable about what the term means; Arabs are a Semitic tribe and hence any anti-Arab reference could be classified as "anti-Semitic". At one point in Israeli history, Palestinians and Israeli's cooperated in the growing and distribution of the Joffa oranges acknowledged by the world. Then Zionism took root and bullied the Palestinians, cutting off their contributions to the Israeli State.

The corollary to the Zionism of Israel is the "Manifest Destiny" in the United States responsible for the genocide of the Native American, an ungrateful act in that the Native Americans showed the "invaders" how to employ agricultural farming techniques for their survival.

The hurling of the stupid "anti-semite" accusation belies the low level of intelligence of those who use it, those who would call people "communists" or "terrorists" without remorse and showing self-righteous hypocrisy as persecutors themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

From the Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.
    Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM

Stringsinger: Don't be so disingenuous, it's beneath you. You know perfectly well that the term 'antisemitism' doesn't subsume animosity towards Arabs, whatever pedanticisms as to their ethnicity might be adduced.

Jim: Thank you for your moderate response to my perhaps overstated animadversions. But the hackles cannot be restrained from rising at that o-so-tempting but facile & best-resisted 'Nazi' comparison, which is, as above-cited protocols state, one of the generally regarded as infallible litmus tests for the presence of that virus. [My science is as confused as my metaphors; but you know what I mean!]

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM

No apology needed Mike - it was a knee-jerk reaction on my part to revert to old habits.
I apologise in advance if it should happen again, which is quite possible if Keith keeps up his deplorable behaviour.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:42 AM

"I am glad that those who spent time and energy actually fighting anti-Semitism (my Grandmother was prosecuted for throwing a stone at a Blackshirt at an open-air meeting), didn't live to see what Israel has become.
Jim Carroll"
.,,.
Something we can share there, Jim. I'm glad my grandmother didn't either.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 09:47 AM

It's for your own benefit Greggie, & etc.

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

Deplorable behaviour!?

I just linked to an Israeli review, and a Jewish American review.
What is to deplore?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 12:37 PM

MgM, what I know of the term anti-semitism is that it is used as a catch-all to justify a reaction toward those who do not agree with Israeli policies regarding the subjugation of Palestinians and this accusation in itself is disingenuous and makes a mockery of the "holocaust".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 01:08 PM

"Deplorable behaviour!?"
sorry - didn't give the full sentence - long term, intensive and dishonest behaviour
Yes - the Israelis do have a right to be listened to - the same rights afforded to any criminal in the dock - on the understanding that their past record will be taken into consideration.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM

"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel. "

Holding all Jews responsible is anti-Jewish (I use that word out of deference to Frank's opinion on the word "anti-semitic")

But it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish.

We can argue semitic semantics until the cows come home. The fact remains that the self described Jewish State kills people for land.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:29 PM

GUEST ~~ I in no way deny that it can indeed be a catch-all defence. I hold no brief for such an attitude. There are certain most justifiable criticisms of Israel to be made, and a great deal [far too much, indeed] in its conduct to deplore.

But this is in no way excludes the strong possibility that much of such criticism is principally a cover for antisemitism nevertheless ~~ a 'respectable' way in which such racist views may be disguised for acceptability. The Protocols cited nine posts back at 09.08 can be of much assistance in recognising this distinction.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 02:58 PM

On learning about Semitic races, I now tend to find the phrase "anti-Semitic" to be a somewhat divisive and obfuscatory creation, though I will use it where precedent demands.

I realise that it has *become* the term meaning "anti-Jewish" but nevertheless I think - considering the word Semite applies to a much broader race of people other than those of the Jewish religion - it would be preferable if it hadn't been adopted, and I also think it would be better if phased out.

I also think intentionally provocative analogues with Nazi Germany are unhelpful, as they can only generate greater intransigence and reaction from those who will be inflamed by such a comparison. A better contemporary equivalence would be South Africa IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:08 PM

But it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish.


Not at all - there are plenty of millenial "Christians"[sic] especially in the U.S. as well as self-serving U.S. politicians who are partly responsible.

And people with Bobad's outlook and viewpoint are also partly responsible.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:34 PM

Greg the Christian Zionists support Israel but I believe they don't give the orders to oppress and kill and they don't drive the tanks and bulldozers.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:39 PM

The US has politically intervened via a veto, every time a NATO resolution tried to control the Israeli land grab. The US is every bit as implicated in each settlement as Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 03:44 PM

My last post: Responding to "it is a certainty that all those responsible for the actions of the State of Israel are Jewish."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:11 PM

"And people with Bobad's outlook and viewpoint are also partly responsible."

Now you're really losing it - please seek help for your own good.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:59 PM

the Christian Zionists support Israel but I believe they don't give the orders to oppress and kill and they don't drive the tanks and bulldozers.

Not directly, but they DO support, enable and finance those who give the orders to oppress and kill and drive the tanks and bulldozers.

Thus they are culpable.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:12 PM

Now you're really losing it - please seek help for your own good.

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:14 PM

Insecurity - The need to insult others in order to feel good about yourself


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 05:36 PM

Culpable? Yeah, Enablers? yes. Aiders and abettors? Uh huh.

Responsible? No. Not as I meant it anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM

So how do you define "responsibility", Jack?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:25 PM

Insecurity - The need to insult others in order to feel good about yourself

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:36 PM

"but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" "

Yes I have - more than once - you just don't want to do the legwork to find it (as expected) and I'm not going to do it for you but I'll give you another tip though - GOOGLE (it's a search engine) - that's all I'm going to say - have at it and don't forget to post the exact question asked in the survey when you find it.

Oh and I'm an understanding kind of guy so if you need any help with your "problem" I'm all ears - here to help without prejudice.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM

So how do you define "responsibility", Jack?

The people who give the orders and the people who carry them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:43 PM

Uh- BooBad- your link from 2010 don't work. Web searches don't turn it up, either.

In addition that's only one item - you haven't addressed any other points raised.

So, one more time:

More shucking and jiving, BooBad- nice footwork! - but you STILL haven't provided any proof of this "survey" nor addressed any of the other points or questions.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Mar 14 - 06:56 PM

So Greggie I was able to find it again without the links so I'm sure you can too - just keep on truckin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 08:03 AM

GregF,

Still waiting for your answers…



I do note that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?



77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"

Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 08:23 AM

IDF intercepts major Iranian weapons shipment to Gaza

The Times of Israel

No BDS against Iran I note.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM

Iran just persecutes Jews , Christians, and Ba'hai. No reason for the BDS crowd to comment on THAT.

They think that is just fine, as long as the Jews are ethnically cleansed like from the West Bank in 1948 to 1967, and from most of the Arab nations post 1948 to the present.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:08 AM

Take your meds, Bruce.

Keep shuckin' & jivin', BooBad


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:19 AM

As I expected, GregF continues to demand special rules for what he supports, and requires anyone who disagrees to comply with what he will not do himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:29 AM

Take your meds, Bruce. Please. You're hallucinating.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 09:36 AM

Answer my questions, or admit you are just a bigot.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 03:48 PM

The expulsion of Jewish minorities from other countries was criminal, and should obviously be reversed. However in very large part this happened in the wake of the expulsion of the majority Palestinian population of what became Israel. Without that precipitating factor there is no reason to believe it would have happened.

Any right of return for Palestinians should be accompanied by a similar right of return for Jews who see living in Israel as exile from other countries. So far as I know this demand has never been put on the table in negotiations, and it surely should be.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Mar 14 - 07:04 PM

"Iran just persecutes Jews , Christians, and Ba'hai. No reason for the BDS crowd to comment on THAT. "




Iran has been subject to BDS since 1979.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:50 AM

"Answer my questions, or admit you are just a bigot."
No less a bigot than those who continue to describe the Crimes of Israel as "Jewish"
The only way for people like Brucie and his little band of fanatics to continue their fanaticism is to ignore the fats of what has happened and is still happening - no reference to Israeli behaviour, just the continuance of old wars - lethally detrimental to Jews and non-Jews alike.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:45 AM

McGrath,
Without that precipitating factor there is no reason to believe it would have happened.

An alternative view.
"It is the custom to say that Zionism was responsible for this (expulsion) development. However, the region's anti-Semitism would have developed even without the rise of the state of Israel because of Arab-Islamic nationalism, which resulted in xenophobia. The fact that these events have been obscured has served in the campaign to delegitimize Israel, and therefore to a large extent, the same population that suffered this oppression. The fate of Palestinian refugees, their proclaimed innocence, and the injustice they endured form the main thrust of this delegitimization. The Jewish refugees have suffered more than the Palestinian refugees and undergone greater spoliations. However, they became citizens of the countries of refuge, especially Israel and France, while Palestinians were ostracized from the Arab nations. -
http://jcpa.org/article/the-expulsion-of-the-jews-from-muslim-countries-1920-1970-a-history-of-ongoing-cruelty-and-discriminatio


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 07:22 AM

"...would have developed even without the rise of the state of Israel because of Arab-Islamic nationalism..." In the opinion of the Jerusalem Centre for Public Affairs, which would not appear a wholly dispassionate organisation.

A hypothetical speculation like that cannot be disproved. But to be. In any way persuasive it would need some pretty strong evidence. The history of anti-semitism linked to nationalism does not have an equivalent in Islamic history, prior to the colonial experience of European settlement and takeover in the Palestinian region.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 07:41 AM

So it's the Jews that are responsible for Muslim antisemitism - good to know that.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

Of course not dispassionate, but Israeli views are still valid.

I put it up as an alternative view.
Are you one of those who object to the views of Israelis being heard?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 08:47 AM

"I put it up as an alternative view."
You always do -
Israel puts its point of view with guns, chemical weapons, blockades, Berlin-type walls and denials - you just offer their denials.
You've had the reports on equality (the Or report was from Israel itself), you've had the filmed evidence, you've had researched and documented accounts of Israeli war crimes and atrocities, you even have over 100 vetoes protecting Israel from her crimes - all you have ever offered in return is Israel's denials.
Wouldn't stand up in any court
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 09:00 AM

Are you one of those who object to the views of Israelis being heard?

Not at all. I object to bullshit being claimed as fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 10:02 AM

And I object to your proclamation that it is bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM

And I object to your proclamation that it is bullshit.

By all means, object all you want. But where's your evidence?

Now, back to your shucking and jiving, BooBad - putting aside the "survey" for the time being (since its results are a decade out of date in any case) - you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions.

As anticipated.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 10:56 AM

"By all means, object all you want. But where's your evidence?"

My evidence is the same as what you provided in your proclamation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 11:01 AM

As for your points and questions, whatever they may be, I proclaim them to be bullshit also.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 12:42 PM

"I proclaim them to be bullshit also."
A proclaimer!!!
Sounds the same as being infallible like Keith?
Didn't thik you'd even begin to respond to the facts put before yo.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 01:16 PM

I've started my own BDS movement. It's known as the Bullshit Detection System and It's gathering weight. I'll be monitoring your posts so be sure to get your facts straight or your posts will be boycotted.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 02:10 PM

As for your points and questions, whatever they may be, I proclaim them to be bullshit also.

Well, BooBad, the points and questions are posted a short while back in this thread - a lot more readily accessible than your obscure post about the "survey"[sic] from 2010. I'm sure if you follow your own advice you can readily turn them up.

As for "proclaiming them (e.g. the points and questions) to be bullshit", just more of your usual shucking and jiving.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:06 PM

"I've started my own BDS movement. It's known as the Bullshit Detection System and It's gathering weigh"
You have long been a leading member of the LITF, (Let's ignore the facts) club - it's why nobody takes you seriously little Boo Boo
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM

Well I'm definitely not going to wade back through your posts to find it - that wouldn't be good for my health (if you get my drift). But if I recall you were inventing another one of your patented false equivalencies to try and make a claim against non Jews having equal rights in Israel but as you didn't provide any evidence for that it was merely your opinion, and we all know about opinions....don't we.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:31 PM

WARNING......the post previous to my last one has set off my BDS alarm.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM

Well I'm definitely not going to wade back through your posts to find it...

If directed at me, BooBad, such "wading" is exactly what you expected and enjoined MJEto in search of your postings up to 5 years ago - not just in this currebt thread- instead of supplying any facts; but of course you are exempt from your own strictures.

Yet another example of your shucking, jiving & bullshitting and general 'do as I say not as I do' disregard for the facts and of reality.

As expected.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:46 PM

"such "wading" is exactly what you expected and enjoined MJEto in search of your postings up to 5 years ago"

Not at all I told you that it's on the web and gave you the name of it - your ineptitude is not my fault but I am willing to give you search advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 03:51 PM

More than 50 discriminatory laws

http://adalah.org/eng/Articles/1771/Discriminatory-Laws

http://adalah.org/eng/Israeli-Discriminatory-Law-Database


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:21 PM

Not at all I told you that it's on the web and gave you the name of it - your ineptitude is not my fault but I am willing to give you search advice.

Yeah, right.

HOWEVER still more shucking & jiving & you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions.

As anticipated.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:35 PM

"you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions."

Yes I did in the second sentence of my post of 06 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM which you must have missed.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:54 PM

Yes I did in the second sentence of my post of 06 Mar 14 - 03:21 PM which you must have missed.

Oh really? No so any sentient being would notice; no answers or responsed whatsoever.

Just more shucking & jiving & you STILL haven't addressed any of the other points or questions.

As anticipated.

Again.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:57 PM

"Oh really? No so any sentient being would notice; no answers or responsed whatsoever."

OK if I have to spell it out for you - my answer is that that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 06:09 PM

OK if I have to spell it out for you - my answer is that that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

AND that you have no facts to contradict it.

Thanks.

Now, moving along.......


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 06:32 PM

"AND that you have no facts to contradict it."

No, you stated the opinion without any supporting evidence, I didn't contradict it because it is just an opinion.

Over and out.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 09:41 PM

And so it gets back to insults and knockabout rubbish.

Why not carry on an actual discussion, and look to find any points of agreement as well as disagreement?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM

Why not carry on an actual discussion,

Been trying for quite a while, Kevin - but Bobad refuses to speak to the several issues raised.

So best I stop trying.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:18 AM

GregF,

Still waiting for your answers…



I do note that you ignore the rights of the Jewish refugees of 1948 from Arab lands. What about them? Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?



77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"

Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League. Shouldn't we go back to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:42 AM

Bruce, if you have any actual questions rather than thinly disguised polemics, do let me know.

You're also "assuming facts not in evidence" - or hallucinating. Are you taking your meds?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 10:54 AM

GregF,

DIRECT QUESTIONS:

1. Do the rights of 640,000 Arab Muslims exceed the right of 820,000 Arab Jews?

Yes or no, feel free to explain your reasons.



2. STATEMENT OF VERIFIED FACT: 77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"
Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League.

QUESTION: Shouldn't we go back to them?

Yes or no, feel free to explain your reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 01:45 PM

More polemics & rhetorical questions, Bruce. Up your dosage.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 01:59 PM

I give you questions, and you attack me rather than answer them.

That says a LOT about you, and the opinions that you are supporting.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 02:04 PM

STATEMENT OF VERIFIED FACT: 77% of the "Jewish Homeland" was split off in 1924 or so to form the Kingdom of TransJordan, where Jews were not allowed to settle. This was by the Mandate Power ( GB) . The remainder was to be the new "Jewish Homeland"
Those were the LAST borders accepted by the Arab League.

QUESTION: Shouldn't we go back to them, rather than the so-called "1967" borders that were the result of truce lines from the 1948 war?

Yes or no, feel free to explain your reasons.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 07:37 PM

Israelis who are living in exile in Israel should of course be free to return to the countries from which they were exiled. The government of Israel should be pressing for this to be agreed, and The governments of such countries, as well as Palestinians, should be supporting them in this.

So far as I am aware this has not happened.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 08:21 PM

A return to those borders might make a lot of sense, bruce. There was of course no suggestion on either side at that time that the Muslim and Christian residents of the area identified as available for Jewish immigrants should be expected to be displaced.   A united Israel/Palestine shared by both peoples was anticipated, and there is a great deal to be said for such an outcome, if it could be achieved.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 07:09 AM

One wonders how any of these historical arguments should apply to the Native Americans, or the Maoris, or the Australian Aborigines - if at all, and if not, why not?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 03:43 PM

Bruce, If Israel wants to use the borders of the mandate, its fine by me, as long as everyone in those borders has the same civil rights and voting rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:08 AM

"As Amos Oz once aptly observed: the walls of his grandparents Europe were covered with graffiti saying "Jews, go to Palestine." Now they say, "Jews, get out of Palestine"—by which is meant Israel. Who do these Western European bigots think they're fooling? Only fools who want to be fooled in the interest of denying that they are manifesting new variations on their grandparent's old biases."


Some hard questions about the Western European double standard against Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:28 AM

"A united Israel/Palestine shared by both peoples was anticipated,"

False statement.

FACT: The 1923 formation of TransJordan out of 77+% of the Mandate Palestine SPECIFICALLY prohibited Jew from owning land, or settling in that portion of the Mandate.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

I very much doubt if any nation would welcome war criminals into its borders
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 10:34 AM

"I very much doubt if any nation would welcome war criminals into its borders"


Yet you expect Israel to accept Palestinians who have been shown to violate the Geneva Conventions time after time?



Oh, that's right- YOU consider that only JEWS can be "war criminals"


Or are you saying that PALESTINIANS should not be allowed to enter Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 11:44 AM

"Yet you expect Israel to accept Palestinians..."
Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so
Israel has broken human rights laws time after time - they have been protected from international condemnation by U,S. vetoes on over 100 occasions
They facilitated the slaughter of 3,500 unarmed refugees
They are ethnically cleansing the area to create a 'Jews only' state
They are forcibly moving entire communities into ghettoes
Their continued development of settlements has all but killed any chance of peace in the area.
At best, you are saying that they are all as bad as one another
Is that your point?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 11:48 AM

And by the way - you are still referring to the crimes of the Israeli regime as "Jewish" - which makes you an Anti-Semite
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 11:53 AM

I disagree with your statements- they are your opinion, and not all statements of fact.

The launching of antipersonnel rockets at civilian areas BY THE PALESTINIANS is an acknowledged war crime.


If territory taken in war is illegal, then the West Bank, taken from Mandate Palestine territory by the Arab League IN WAR in 1948 is the legal property of the successor state to Mandate Palestine, Israel. The FACT that it was rendered "JEW Free" by the Arab occupiers after 1948 seems to have been ignored.


Arab Muslims have greater rights in Israel than Jews OR Christians have in ANY Arab nation.


Yet you seem to focus only on Israel- it looks like you have a little bias, which I can only attribute to religious bigotry, since all peoples in that region are racially related.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 01:20 PM

All your accusations are disputed Jim, but this one I think you made up by yourself.
"Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so."
Please explain about the slaughter.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:16 PM

"All your accusations are disputed Jim, but this one I think you made up by yourself."
Only by you and other ethnic cleanser supporters Keith - three and a half thousand refugees were slaughtered at Sabra/Shatila to start with - doen't take all the other massacres into account - you have made up a defence for all those - which is the only "invention" here.
"I disagree with your statements- they are your opinion, and not all statements of fact"
Not opinion Brucie - facts defended by United Nations vetoes - I suppose they are all Anti-Semites, unlike your good self who continues to accuse all Jews of Israeli war crimes!!
Even the heads of the Israeli Security Service put their hands up to some of the crimes - Anti-Semites too, no doubt!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 02:25 PM

Well, Jimmy,

When you hold ALL parties responsible for their actions, an not just Israel, you might be able to put forward your arguments as to the validity of those accusations. Until then, you show a bias.






Why do you give 640,000 Arab Muslim refugees greater rights than you do 820,000 Arab Jews?


Why do you insist on borders determined by MILITARY action in 1948, and deny those determined by military action in 1967?


Why do you demand that Israel abide by rules you do not apply to ANY other nation?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM

"When you hold ALL parties responsible for their actions,"
I do Brucie (don't mind Jimmy, though I prefer it with a Y) - I have no brief for any politician and condemn out offhand all atrocities carried out in the name of religion.
You, on the other hand, defend atrocities by Israel, while not only blaming all Palestinians for what their leaders do, but telling those same people they have no right to be where they are.
I would like to see peace in the Middle East - you on the other hand say there can be no peace until all Arabs succumb to to all Israeli demands.
I support the present (floundering) peace talks - you on the other hand give your wholehearted support to every Israeli abuse that has led those talks to the point of destruction.
I blame the Israeli regime - you blame the Palestinian people.
I identify the war criminals as the Israeli regime - you identify them as being "Jews" - making Sabra/Shatila and the like "Jewish" crimes.
I don't give any people rights over any other - I object to the continuing occupation of land that has been taken by force and can only settled peaceably by negotiation.
I have no reason to invalidate my accusations - they have been validadted by the United Nations and quashed by the United States veto.
Validation for those crimes is long established and has been acknowledged by Israelis and non-Israelis alike including members of the Israeli Security forces - I ask again Anti-Semites?
Now answer my pints and don't you dare start demanding answers before you do so.
Yours
Jimmy Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Mar 14 - 04:35 PM

Sabra and Shatila.
Nothing to do with occupied territories, and Arab on Arab violence anyway.

"Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so."

Who are these thousands of non comabatants slaughtered to occupy land?
You made it up Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 04:21 AM

"Nothing to do with occupied territories, and Arab on Arab violence anyway."
Everything to do with the predatory and murderous nature of the Israeli regime
I made nothing up - massacres of Palestinian settlers began as the British were leaving Palestine - British soldiers reported the sounds of the grenades being thrown into occupied homes to clar villages ready for occupation - but then again - you've already described British soldiers as liars, so that doesn't matter to you.
Doesn't matter anyway - it's all a matter of record, around 800 civilians and prisoners of war were massacres by Israeli troops before Israel even got started.
You, of all people, are the last person in the position to accuse anybody of making things up - not with your running record.
Jim Carroll
Israeli Massacres
More Israeli Massacres


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 09:01 AM

So this is made up,
"Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land - it has slaughtered thousands of non combatants to do so."

Or, was there slaughter of thousands of non combatants to illegally occupy some Palestinian land?

Of course not.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Mar 14 - 11:14 AM

When you hold ALL parties responsible for their actions, an not just Israel,

Bruce, are you really so deluded that you cannot realize that you are constantly doing, in reverse, what you rant and rave and accuse other folks of, by giving the Government of Israel a pass and not holding it responsible for doing what you accuse other parties of?

So, are you blind, confused, or are you dissembling?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 03:30 AM

"Or, was there slaughter of thousands of non combatants to illegally occupy some Palestinian land?"
Both
Incursions into Palestine, slaughter of refugees, deleiberately causing the deaths of nomadic tribes by depriving them of the essentials of existence (not to mention the use of chemicals on their homes), indiscriminate use of heavy artillery on civilian ares, continuing depriving of Palestinians of food, medicine, equipment essential to livelihood and day-to-day living..... not to mention actions that have slowed down peace negations to a virtual halt - all of these Israel has been condemned for and in each case, the United States have blocked them being brought to justice for - thousands of lives - nothing invented unless the civilised world has invented them.
Even its own ex-security service head have fessed up to these having taken place - are they 'anti-Semites' d'you think.
Shitbag ethnic cleansers like anti Semites like you and Brucie defend them, but neither of you fall into the catergory of 'civilised'.
I'm glad we agree that Israelis slaughtered non-combatants to occupy Palestinian lands though - but there again, how can you deny history - whoops - forgot who I was addressing fotr a moment, that's what you do. isn't it?      
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 05:45 AM

"Incursions into Palestine,"
Driving back invading armies.

" slaughter of refugees,"
Not true.

" deleiberately causing the deaths of nomadic tribes by depriving them of the essentials of existence"

Israeli Bedouin have the fastest growing population in the world!

"indiscriminate use of heavy artillery on civilian ares,"

Never happened

" continuing depriving of Palestinians of food, medicine, equipment essential to livelihood and day-to-day living..... "
Made up.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM

You can deny all these until your red-neck explodes - they are all on record, have been condemned, confirmed by neutral observers and the U.N. and only denied by Israelis and their supporters - it's all in the book - but you don't read them, do you?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Joe_F
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 09:44 PM

http://come-to-think.livejournal.com/tag/zionism


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 14 - 10:36 PM

The 1923 partition, as I remarked Bruce, envisaged that the area not separated as Transjordan, that is to say, west of the Jordan, while allowing European Settlements by Jewish immigrants would also continue to be occupied by the existing Muslim and Christian inhabitants, resulting in a shared Palestine/Israel, call it whatever the inhabitants wished to call it.

If it were possible to return to that, as You appear to suggest Bruce, that could well be the best thing. However there would be a lot of opposition to that especially from those who would oppose a state which was not defined in a sectarian way and dominated by a particular ethnic group.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM

Young Isaelis won't serve


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 17 Mar 14 - 10:29 AM

Conscientious objection to military service in Israel:
an unrecognised human right
Report for the Human Rights Committee in relation to Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

The procedures governing the hearing and deciding of cases of conscientious objectors are unfair and unknown (to the public).

(A violation of human rights.)

The imprisonment of (male) conscientious objectors is a violation of the human rights to conscientious objection, derived from art 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

(Some democracy.)

The legislation on exemption of religious women is based on Jewish tradition, which does not permit daughters either to stray from their father's authority or to live in a mixed-gender society. Military service by women would conflict with both these proscriptions, hence with the traditional religious way of life[17].

(Israel is a sexist theocracy.)

        •        At present the ongoing attempt to force conscientious objectors into betraying or changing their convictions by means of escalating the tactic of repeated imprisonment is of major concern. This is in breach of article 14, paragraph 7, of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and contrary to Commission on Human Rights resolution 2002/45.

(Imprisonment of this kind is a tactic of a totalitarian regime.)



Jewish male scholars studying in a yeshiva (religious school) are granted exemption or automatic deferral until they are past military service age. There is an arrangement whereby they can study while in the armed forces. Druze male religious scholars too are exempt[10].

(Orthodox Judaism runs Israel.)


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:30 AM

From Tuesday's Irish Times
Jim Carroll
BESIEGED BEDOUIN CAMP A MICROCOSM OF ISRAELI OCCUPATION AND SETTLEMENT POLICY

RAY MURPHY LETTER FROM RAMALLAH, IRISH TIMES, TUESDAY 19TH MARCH.
PALESTINIAN FARMERS' ACCESS TO LAND CURBED AS JEWISH SETTLEMENTS EXPAND.
Sulaiman is a 75-year-old sheikh, or camp elder, in a Bedouin camp in the south Hebron hills over an hour's drive from Ramallah in the so-called West Bank of Palestine.
This is an area referred to by John Kerry as having potential to be part of a future land swap, a reference to the Palestinian Authority and Israel agreeing to exchange land to accommo¬date illegal settlements as part of a peace agreement.
On a field trip there to observe the impact of Israeli settlement policy I found myself in a nearby Bedouin camp after our car broke down. Palestinians told me the Bedouin chose this way of life, but I was not convinced.
These Bedouin came here after fleeing their land around Beersheba soon after the state of Israel was founded in 1948. Unlike most Bedouin, they paid for the land with camels and have been there since. The Bedouin seemed to cling to the hillside, and their camp even had a woman living in a cave. In the 1980s settlers moved in alongside the camp and the settlement has expanded continuously since then.
Here is a microcosm of the implications of the Israeli occupation and settlement policy. Sulaiman is passionate and animated when outlining the daily obstacles to living in a specially designated zone by the Israeli military. We want to live in peace and buried the guns with Arafat, he says.
He asks if the British govern¬ment will give them a home in England, as historically it is responsible for the predica¬ment of the Palestinians.
Poor accommodation
The camp comprises a few temporary structures and poor quality accommodation, including what looks like a large shed, funded by Irish Aid. There were also solar panels supported by Irish Aid that provide electricity to the camp.
These people own a few miserable-looking sheep and goats, and the shelters they live in. Yet they are under constant pressure to move. Despite the obstacles, they are determined to remain and preserve their way of life. This is a lifestyle choice for these formerly nomadic people.
As this is an Israeli military restricted zone, anything built without permission will be demolished or removed. This even includes outside toilet facilities and children's playground equipment provided by international aid organisations.
A specially built toilet for the disabled nephew of Sulaiman was removed in the middle of the night.
Braindamaged
His nephew was brain dam¬aged during a confrontation with Israeli security forces about four years ago when he tried to stop them demolishing the traditional clay cooker used by the Bedouin for baking, called a Tamboun. This is an enclosed cooker fuelled by dried animal waste that is usually kept lit all day.
One of the settler families has sued Sulaiman in the Israeli civil courts seeking substantial damages for the nuisance created by the smoke from the camp Tamboun. The court document served on Sulaiman is in Hebrew.
Israeli activists who regular¬ly come to the camp to monitor the situation and lend support have helped with translation and advice. They too are often attacked by the settlers. .
Violence against Palestini¬ans from Israeli settlers is an increasing problem in the West Bank. On a previous visit to the city of Nablus and its hinter¬land, I experienced this first hand.
Israeli authorities are threatening to relocate thou¬sands of Bedouin. The Israeli defence ministry is in the process of legalising another illegal outpost in the area to create a chain of settlements.
Haartez, the Israeli daily newspaper, reported that the gradual expansion of the residential and agricultural areas of Jewish settlements has been accompanied by well-doc¬umented efforts by settlers to block access by Palestinian farmers and shepherds to more and more of their land.
I thank Sulaiman for sharing his experience and his hospitali¬ty and promise to return.
Not forgotten
He described himself as a simple illiterate Bedouin and thanked us for our concern. He demonstrates you don't need a formal education to be articu¬late and compelling in arguing a case.
He said it helped to know that they are not forgotten and it gave him strength to endure.
Back on the road hitching a lift to the nearest village to catch a bus to Ramallah, Sulaiman's predicament and spirit remind me why I had come to Palestine in the first place.
Meanwhile the peace negotiations continue and no one I meet, Israeli or Palestini¬an, is optimistic.
Prof Ray Murphy of the Irish Centre for Human Rights, NUI Galway, is a visiting scholar with Al-Haq, a Palestinian Human Rights Organisation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:33 PM

The dictator Netanyahu still maintains his iron heel over rational thinking Israelis, who,
realizing that their country is in peril from their government, speak out at the injustices inflicted on the Palestinian people, while Bibi spouts lies about the BDS and attempts to arm twist the public in accordance with the toady followers in AIPAC.

The only solution for Palestinians is to adopt a politically defiant non-violent campaign against Israel including the boycott of West Bank Settlement industrial products such as Soda Stream and Sabra condiments.

Shame on Scarlett Johansson for playing into the hands of a corrupt Israeli government.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:54 PM

"The only solution"
Not the "only" solution - if the U.S. would stop supporting Israeli atrocities with its veto (and the apologists stopped arguing on their behalf), perhaps the Israeli people might view the thugs in charge in a different light.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:40 PM

Committed nonviolence has the potential to change those kind of things and has far more chance of winning a future worth living than the kind of violent resistance that the authorities know how to deal with. There is a kind of collusion between the advocates of violence on both sides, they serve to justify each other.

But committed nonviolence is very hard indeed, when it is faced by those determined to break it brutally. It involves people having their lives damaged, and it involves dying.

Recently I saw the film 5 Broken Cameras, which brings that very much home. It tells the story of a nonviolent struggle carried on over years by a palestinian village facing the encroaching wall and an illegal settlement. It is particularly heart breaking, because you get to know the people, and those killed are people you have grown to respect and admire, and wonder at their courage.   Here is a link to the film on Youtube.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:22 PM

"Sabra and Shatila.
Nothing to do with occupied territories, and Arab on Arab violence anyway."

Those Arab Phalangists were put into Sabra/Shatila by the IDF. At the very least they facilitated the massacre, at most they actively encouraged it.

And the only argument you can produce against that is "Israel denies it".

Mandy Rice-Davies!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:36 AM

troubadour, we have debated that incident in excruciating, minute detail.
Israel's version of events stands up to scrutiny.
You dismiss it why?

And why do you never express views about the other Arab on Arab massacres at those same refugee camps, and other such camps like the terrible scenes we saw a few weeks ago at Palestinian camps in Syria?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:39 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/26/queue-food-syria-yarmouk-camp-desperation-refugees


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:55 AM

"Filippo Grandi, the head of UNRWA, described the camp as a ghost town after visiting this week. "The devastation is unbelievable. There is not one single building that I have seen that is not an empty shell by now. They're all blackened by smoke," he told reporters.

He said he was even more shocked by the camp's residents, who flooded towards aid distribution points. "It's like the appearance of ghosts. These are people who have not been out of there, that have been trapped in there not only without food, medicines, clean water – all the basics – but also probably completely subjected to fear because there was fierce fighting … They can hardly speak. I tried to speak to many of them, and they all tell the same stories of complete deprivation.""


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:28 AM

"Israel's version of events stands up to scrutiny."
No we haven't - your trolling has made sure of that
You have been given statement after sytatment by eye-witnesses, by reporters, by nurses on site, by soldiers who witnessed the massacre - there was even a film made based on an Israeli soldiers breakdown following having observed the massacre
Your single response has been - Israeli said they didn't do it
Israel's role in the massacre is a done deal - part of history.
They facilitated the massacre, they provided the transport for the trrops, they gave them access to the site, they stood by, both in the camp and outside, in watchtowers, and watched the slaughter take place for three days - they even provided illumination so the killing could carry on through the hours of darkness.
When the massacre was over they once again provided that transport for the killers to make their getaway.
When the killing was over the Israeli troops assisted in burying the evidence in mass graves and later they built a sports stadium over it to hide the evidence.
Now matter how many statements of shock-horror statements and Israeli denials you produce, those are the recorded facts of the Sabra Shatila - long accepted   
You have now adopted a technique of trolling on these subjects, repeating your denials over and over again until they are driven into the ground.
Shatila as one of the great human rights atrocities of history - Israel facilitated in it and made it happen, it wouldn't have been possible without their full co-operation.
How about responding to the Bedouin ethnic cleansing - I suppose that is a lie as well!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:31 AM

Or Five Broken Cameras, or the deliberate sabotage of the peace talks...


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:16 AM

See the Israeli version of the film.
Re the massacres, after literally thousands of posts, Israel's version stood.

If israel is guilty of war crimes, why the warm relations with EU countries, Scandinavian countries Canada etc.?
You kid yourself that your version is believed by real people in the real world.
It is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:43 AM

And that's it - we take the word of nations who have a vested interested in trading with Israel above the facts
Stupid, even for you
Jim Carroll

Christian view
U.S. View
Israeli View
Jewish view - another atrocity


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 05:58 AM

Tiny Israel's trade can not be very significant.
You can hardly even see it on a map.
Not like, say Russia.
That can not be the only reason for warm relations.

The fact is that everyone knows that lies are told about Israel and in the real world as opposed to Mudcat no-one believes any of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:39 AM

Have nay of the people you named ever produced any evidence of Israel's innocence, or for that matter, claimed that they didn't do it.
The world has had comfortable trading relations with monsters - Britain trades with China, has sold chemical weapons to Syria, supplied arms to Gadaffi, continues to sell arms to despotic regimes, and has "wrarm relations" with many of them.
You have had your evidence, you have the Redmond report, yu have international condemnation
Character witnesses who accept Israel's guilt enough to have not bothered defending her atrocities don't hack it
Guilty as charged
Out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:53 AM

Britain has sold chemical weapons to no-one and does not even have any.

It is not just Britain who is on warm and friendly terms with Israel.
Virtually all liberal democracies are, and they would not be with a country that was really guilty of war crimes or crimes against humanity or any massacres at all.

It is all bollocks Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:54 AM

"And why do you never express views about the other Arab on Arab massacres at those same refugee camps, and other such camps like the terrible scenes we saw a few weeks ago at Palestinian camps in Syria?"

I deplore ANY massacre, whoever commits the crime and whoever is the victim.

But my post was in direct response to your dismissive comment on one particular massacre.

Unlike you, I don't seek to excuse the actions of one side by repeatedly using the primary school playground "Tommy did it too Miss!" defence.

1. The IDF had the camps surrounded.
2. They admitted the Phalangists, knowing the hatred that group has for the inmates.
3. At best, they stood by and let the slaughter of hundreds of men, women and children continue.

"Israel denies it" is not a credible defence.

In case you missed the allusion to Ms Rice Davies, she famously said "They would say that, wouldn't they"!

It is a huge relief that you are not a judge, as the thought of a serial killer being released because others killed more, is simply appalling.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:20 AM

BTW, the Sabra/Shatila affair is a very recent instance of genuine Christian persecution of another religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:27 AM

U.S. involvement in Sabra Shatila
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

Horses mouth trade figures for Israel
Israel offers a wide range of opportunities for UK businesses – many UK companies are already exporting successfully and in 2012 two way trade reached a record high of over £3.85 billion of goods and a further £2 billion of services. For the first four months of 2013, UK companies exported £482 million of goods. Israel is an open and highly competitive market, with opportunities in most sectors, especially for small and medium-sized business. UK goods and services are generally held in high regard, but must be of high quality and competitively priced.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:33 AM

I deplore ANY massacre, whoever commits the crime and whoever is the victim.

Sure, but the only one ever posted about here is the one where you can frame Israel.

Is 30+ years "recent" really?

The massacre was carried out by Arabs, not Jews.
The Israelis stopped it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:36 AM

Israel is a tiny country with correspondingly tiny trade, and no oil or gas.
No country would cosy up to a criminal state for access to orange juice.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:40 AM

Sure, but the only one ever posted about here is the one where you can frame Israel.
Israel has been found guilty by a United Nations enquiry into the massacre
The world and its mother has condemned Israel for the massacre
Thare has never been any question of Israel's part in the massace
Even Israel's own enquiry (hardlt impartial) was forced to admit partial guilt
Now Mudcat has become an 'Anti-Semitic plot'
Can we assume you are only a member of this forum to lead us all onto the path of righteousness?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM

"The Israelis stopped it."

SURE they did,............after watching it happen for THREE DAYS!
__________________________________________________________________


Concerning other massacres, I responded directly to a post from YOU, so they are irrelevant to that exchange. So I will take a leaf from your book.

Start a thread on any other subject you like, and I will express my opinions there!

You have suggested that to others in the past. How do like having your own evasive techniques used against you?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM

U.S. involvement in Sabra Shatila
Jim Carroll

Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) may best be described as a left-wing equivalent to WingNutDaily.

The website describes itself as an "independent research and media organization." Globalresearch.ca takes pride in being a reliable "alternative news" source serving as a major repository of a broad range of "news articles, in-depth reports and analysis on issues which are barely covered by the mainstream media" (such as the New World Order). Its politico-economic stance is strongly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist, anti-militarist, "internationalist but anti-globalization." Its view of science, the economy and geopolitics seems to be broadly conspiracist.

While many of Globalresearch.ca's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping and bullshit throughout its pages, especially in relation to taking its news from "Russia Today", along with other unreliable and/or open sources.

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, Globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda. The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order. Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11, vaccines, genetic modification, Zionism, HAARP, global warming, and David Kelly. Analyses of these issues tend follow the lines of the site's political biases.

Apparently, contributors to Globalresearch.ca consider information sourced from anyone who seems aligned to their ideology as reliable; during the 2011 Libyan civil war the site was an apologist for Muammar al-Gaddafi, reproducing his propaganda and painting him as a paragon of a modern leader. It's no surprise then that the site has long become a magnet for radicals, fringe figures and crank elements from the left in general. And ironically, it has more in common with its writers' enemies and wingnut rivals than they would ever admit.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:29 AM

Start a thread on any other subject you like, and I will express my opinions there!
I started one about the abuses in Syria.
"Homs horror"
Feel free to comment.

Israel has been found guilty by a United Nations enquiry into the massacre
Not true.
The world and its mother has condemned Israel for the massacre

Which governments?
Any liberal democracies?
No.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM

"Not true."
The Redmond Enquiry found Israel guilty either "directly or indirectly" of the Sabra/Shatila massacre - guilty as that
"I started one about the abuses in Syria."
And proposed that Assad should be armed with riot control equipment
"Globalresearch.ca (also under the domain name globalresearch.org) may best be described as a left-wing equivalent to WingNutDaily."
Only by nutters who present pages of from openly fascist sites such as 'Muslim' Watch', Racist Sites like 'White Supremecy' and Zionist sites like 'Gatestone'..... not forgetting his supporter who back some of those claims vehemently - without exception nor qualification - thousand of Islamophobic claims - and is now defending Israeli massacres of civilians - why not!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:56 AM

Israel accepts indirect responsibility as the authority in Lebanon at the time.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 09:04 AM

"Israel accepts indirect responsibility as the authority in Lebanon at the time."
Not for the massacres - just that they stood by and did nothing - a war crime in itself.
Booboo put an objection to one of the links I put up - the other three stand then?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:02 PM

They did not.
They ended it.

Israel has been found guilty by a United Nations enquiry into the massacre
Not true.
The world and its mother has condemned Israel for the massacre
Which governments?
Any liberal democracies?
No.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM

Denial again
Another game set and match I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:33 PM

Denial again
Another game set and match I think
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM

They started it by delivering the killers to the site and allowing them access to their victims
THey ended it by burying the bodies under the stadium
I dare you to say neither of these things are true
That will just about put an end to an semblance of credibility you believe you have
Even your best friends.....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:40 PM

They started it by delivering the killers to the site and allowing them access to their victims
THey ended it by burying the bodies under the stadium
I dare you to say neither of these things are true
That will just about put an end to an semblance of credibility you believe you have
Even your best friends.....
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 02:52 PM

They do not deny transportation.
(The camps are only 15 minutes walk from the centre of Beirut anyway.)

Bodies under the stadium is a myth.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:10 PM

One liberal democracy can be cited that accuses Israel is Ireland, the source of the vessels intended for Gaza to offer relief.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:15 PM

Ireland did not accuse Israel of the massacre, and abstained from a UN GA resolution condemning it as a war crime.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:25 PM

Irish embassy website.
"Ireland and Israel are both modern, open, export orientated economies which benefit from highly educated and dynamic workforces. Israel is one of Ireland's largest trading partners in the Middle East, with visible trade amounting to a half a billion US dollars annually. It is not surprising, therefore, that there are strong commercial links across a wide range of business areas from software and the life sciences to education and food and drinks. "


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:53 PM

Denial and charecter reference versus eye witnesses and conviction by the UN enquiriry
Eye witness account from a doctor - now let me see - who do we believe?
Jim Carroll
All lies, I tell you!!
The Massacre
The phalange militia were Israel's proxy in Lebanon, their members were recruited from the Maronite Christian community. They were payed for, trained and armed by Israel. They were effectively an extension of the IDF, and were usually sent in to do the dirty work.
After Sharon's army had taken West Beirut and sealed off all escapes routes from the Palestinian refugee camps, Sharon ordered the phalange in. The official order from Sharon read "for the operation in the camps the phalange should be sent in"*. Knowing that the camps were full of unarmed civilians - mainly women and children, only around 150 phalange were deployed. The testimonies of the survivors suggest that both Israeli soldiers and their mercenaries the Phalange entered the camps and participated in the massacre**.
The Israelis supervised the operation from their forward command post, a six story building overlooking the camps. From there they gave logistic support and relayed orders to the soldiers on the ground. Concerned that reports of the on-going slaughter would leak out, the soldiers were ordered to continue the killing through out the night - to facilitate this the Israelis lit up the sky with flares all night long. The idea was to kill as many Palestinians as quickly as possible, before international pressure would put a stop to the operation. Over 3000 elderly men, women and children were murdered. Next the evidence had to be buried quickly - so the Israelis send in bulldozers. Houses were packed with bodies and demolished to form mass graves. One such mass grave contained a thousand bodies.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 04:15 PM

This doctor was not an eye witness.
We have been over all this.
She was in the hospital and saw nothing of it, and found out about it afterwards.
We have the account of a nurse who was with her in the hospital and they were marched out of the camp together.

You are resorting to dishonesty again.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM

Now you are openly lying again to defend a human rights atrocity.
Yes she was there, as was the nurse whose eye-witness testimony you attempted to use, and then to deny when it didn't work out, and the on-the-spot journalist reporting from the site, and the Israeli soldiers who gave evidence against the massacres, and the investigation teams sent in to report, and the survivors of the massacre and the Falangists who were later pressed to give evidence as to their involvement... every single account of the massacre that doesn't show Israel in a favourable light has been dismissed by you as "lies" of has been ignored.
You are a sick, sick joke - thankfully you are a one-off - not even your bigoted mates bother to invent things - they just pepper us with their extremist arguments.
Jim Carroll   
Wiki entry.
"From Beirut to Jerusalem: A Woman Surgeon With the Palestinians is a book by Swee Chai Ang, an orthopaedic surgeon who worked with civilians during the Lebanese Civil War. The book details her eye-witness account of the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Dr. Ang, a graduate of the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Britain, testified before the Kahan Commission. The commission was responsible for investigating the nature of the Israeli involvement in the massacre of perhaps 800 to 1000 Palestinians. Dr. Ang established a British charity following her first hand account of the massacres known as the Medical Aid for Palestinians (MAP) which she discusses in her work"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM

as was the nurse whose eye-witness testimony you attempted to use, and then to deny when it didn't work out,

Not true Jim.
Nurse Siegel gave an honest account of the experience she and Dr. Chai shared.

You have to admire Chai's work but her accounts are loaded with dishonest propaganda.

You know this because we debated it in great detail just one year ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

In his book, Foucault's Pendulum, Umberto Eco writes: "If two things don't fit, but you believe both of them, thinking that somewhere, hidden, there must be a third thing that connects them, that's credulity." Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland. They also believe Palestinians have a right to the Jewish homeland. They are credulous, because they refuse to look at the "hidden thing" that allows them to connect the two things that don't fit. The hidden thing is anti-Semitism. Make no mistake: BDS is the new "final solution."

Barbara Kay - National Post


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:04 AM

Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland. They also believe Palestinians have a right to the Jewish homeland.

Moresimplistic booshit, Bullbad.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

I am against Zionism.

Do I think that Zionists have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

What you you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:16 AM

Do you think that Muslims have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

You have said that you support that- the West Bank was made "JEW-Free" in 1948 during the Jordanian occupation, and Palestinians settled that previously Jewish occupied land.


Unless the borders of the Two-state solution reflect the LAST set of AGREED upon borders ( i.e., NOT caused by military occupation), the war will continue (IT HAS NEVER BEEN ENDED).

So, we should go back to the 1923 borders of The Jewish Homeland and TransJordan, the Arab Muslim homeland. All other borders after that have been denied by the Arab nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 12:04 PM

Do I think that Zionists have the right to push other people off land that they want and to constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land?

If they ever started doing that, I would be very angry about it.
No decent country would have anything to do with a people who did that.
Not the Brits or the Irish or the Duth or the French or the Swedes or the Canadians or the Australians or the New zealanders or......


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

There are those who are not accepting Israel's suppression of Palestinians that are raising their voices about it all over the world including the countries mentioned above.
As long as the Palestinian cause continues to be non-violent political resistance, it will remain a viable force that will eventually have a win-win for it and Israel.

If the BDS lapses into the violent quagmire of military reaction found in Syria or Egypt today, which I doubt it will since BDS is predicated on non-violent political resistance, it could
dissipate it's influence.

As it stands, BDS is working toward the betterment of the Palestinian and the
people of Israel. The notion that Palestinians want to eliminate Israel
is a propagandistic lie. It is being manufactured by the reactionary so-called right-wing forces in the Zionist community as it builds new settlements and evicts the Palestinian tenants from their rightful homes. Their actions are unsustainable as a growing BDS will show.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM

"The notion that Palestinians want to eliminate Israel
is a propagandistic lie. It is being manufactured by the reactionary so-called right-wing forces in the Zionist community as it builds new settlements and evicts the Palestinian tenants from their rightful homes."


Stringgie, the QUOTE from the HAMAS charter is from THEIR website.


Are you calling Palestinians LIARS????????


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:34 PM

from the Hamas Charter

"[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware.""


"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who can presume to speak for all Islamic generations to the Day of Resurrection?

This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Sharia (law), and the same goes for all lands conquered by Muslims by force, during the times of (Islamic) conquests, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

It happened like this: When the leaders of the Islamic armies conquered Syria and Iraq, they sent to the Caliph of the Muslims, Umar bin-el-Khatab, asking for his advice concerning the conquered land - whether they should divide it among the soldiers, or leave it for its owners, or what? After consultations and discussions between the Caliph of the Muslims, Omar bin-el-Khatab and companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, it was decided that the land should be left with its owners who could benefit by its fruit, but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine , is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM

Don't confuse the man with facts BB, it spoils his delusions.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 01:21 AM

Stringsinger, which of those countries treat Israel as the pariah it would be if those accusations are true.
You claimed that about Ireland and I already showed that you were wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 06:34 PM

"You claimed that about Ireland and I already showed that you were wrong."
You have shown nobody any such thing.
You showed yourself a racist idiot on Ireland - your evidence was as invented as was your "cultural implant" witnesses.
You appear to have slunk away from the Irish thread to lick your wounds, so please don't try to turn your defeats into victories.
Israel has been condemned time and time again throughout the world for tis terroris behaviour and human rights abuses.
Up to now, the only support they have had is from the U.S. (with its 100+ vetoes which have prevented the regime being indicted as war criminals.
There is a large opposition to the present policy from Jews within and outsidee Israel (all Anti-Semite, no doubt) and even America has stepped away from supporting its behaviour over the peace negotiations.   
"Anti-Zionists believe the Jews have no right to their historic homeland."
Why I am no longer a Zionist
Zionism is a temporal political movement - to suggest that to be Anti-Zionist is to be Anti-Semitic is equivalent to suggestion that to oppose political organisations like The British National Party, whose basis is a claim to represent the interests of the British people, is Anti-British.
It is also equivalent to skulking behind the dead of Auschwitz to defend war crimes and atrocities.
Only an Anti-Semite would accuse Jews of horrors such as Sabra/Shatila when it was Israel who facilitated the massacre.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 11:07 PM

Jim, I showed that Ireland enjoyed warm and friendly relations with Israel.
Like any decent government, it would not if it believed all that shit.

I have not slunk away from the Irish thread.
You just did not respond to my last post.

Instead of making up shit about me, try to address what I actually say.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

"I showed that Ireland enjoyed warm and friendly relations with Israel"
Another figment of your sick and inventive mind.
This is actually a summary of Ireland's "friendly relations with Israel"
"Both countries established diplomatic relations in 1975. Prior to 1975, Ireland had refused to establish relations due to Israel's alleged violations of UN Resolutions. In 1981, however, Ireland condemned Israel's attack on Iraq's nuclear reactor. Ireland did not allow an Israeli embassy to open until 20 December 1993. Two weeks prior to that, Ireland had allowed PLO Leader Yasser Arafat to visit and open a delegation.
Ireland annually provides €7.5 million in aid to the Palestinians, including €3.5 million for UNRWA"
Not that it matters anyway
Britain has friendly relations with China, who is at present, one of her greatest trading partners.
Does that negate China's record on human rights - I presume so?
Our (Britain's) relations with despots is legendary
Gaddafi
Bahrain
In the past, Britain and the US has had "friendly relations" with some of the world's despots - like, for instance, the Salazar regime in Portugal, which was regularly declared as Britain's greatest ally
Salazar
While the Greek and Chilean fascists were torturing and 'disappearing' many thousands of its opponents they were enjoying "friendly relations with Britain and America - Margaret Thatcher's "friendly relations" with Pinochet the Torturer could have come straight out of a Barbara Cartland novel.
"Friendly relations" are a political and economic expediency and have nothing whatever to do with the human rights records of those concerned - whatever "facts" one cares to invent about them to defend human rights abuses and terrorist behaviour.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:08 AM

Irish embassy website.
"Ireland and Israel are both modern, open, export orientated economies which benefit from highly educated and dynamic workforces. Israel is one of Ireland's largest trading partners in the Middle East, with visible trade amounting to a half a billion US dollars annually. It is not surprising, therefore, that there are strong commercial links across a wide range of business areas from software and the life sciences to education and food and drinks. "


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:34 AM

As I said - immaterial - the "business links" says it all, especially since the death of the Celtic Tiger.
You have been given Ireland's official position on Israel - wherever tweakings are taking place to keep the trade flowing, Ireland's support for the Palestinian people remains unaltered.
It doesn't matter anyway - as I have shown, "friendly relations" and political mouthings do not alter one iota the human rights records of any country - or were Gaddafi, the present Hamad bin Isa bin Salman Al Khalifa,s Bahrain, Salazar's Portugal, Papadopoulos's and Makarezos's Greece, Pinochet's Chile all misjudged souls because of their "friendly relations" with the west.
And what about 'China, me old China' - hotbed of democracy or what?
Did you know that with Syria's 20 year record of torturing and disappearing its opponents, Syria's present leader, Assad, was in line for an honourary British knighthood - gawd bless 'is democratic socks!
Pratt!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM

Half a billion is a fraction of Ireland's total trade.
If Ireland believed all that shit about Israel's evil doings, they would have nothing to do with them.
Like all intelligent and informed governments, they know it is all propaganda and bollocks.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:03 AM

You are clinging onto Ireland and ignoring her official stated policy while at the same time deliberately ignoring the ludicrous idea that silence on Israel's crimes have nothing to do with those crimes being a fact
Israel's actions speak for themselves
!00+ vetoes speak for themselves
America's outright condemnation of Israel's behaviour at the Conference table (described as "Antisemitism by the Israeli regime) just about says it all
Only the atrocity deniers remain
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

Jim, liberal democracies like Ireland know that Israel is not the evil tyrant of the propaganda lies.
Those hundred vetoed motions were not supported by any intelligent, informed government.
The other sort are a majority at UN.

Ireland's "stated policy" is strong links with Israel.
They obviously do not see a "terrorist state."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:01 AM

"Jim, liberal democracies like Ireland know that Israel is not the evil tyrant of the propaganda lies."
Load of crap in the light of "liberal democracies" arms trading with terrorists record
"Those hundred vetoed motions were not supported by any intelligent, informed government."
So the UN is a load of crap and should be scrapped - must write that down!!
Sheesh - deeper and deeper every time you post - keep digging please
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:09 AM

There you go - one example from the United Nations News centre.
The U.S. veto had overwhelming support from all liberal democratic nations - my arse
Jim Carroll

UNITED STATES VETOES SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION ON ISRAELI SETTLEMENTS
18 February 2011 – The United States today vetoed a Security Council resolution condemning all Israeli settlements established in occupied Palestinian territory since 1967 as illegal, saying that while it agreed that the settlements are illegitimate the resolution harmed chances for peace talks.
The other 14 members of the Council voted for the resolution, which demanded that "Israel, as the occupying power, immediately and completely ceases all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and that it fully respect its legal obligations in this regard." But as one of the five permanent members, the negative US vote is the equivalent of a veto.
The resolution, co-sponsored by over 120 of the UN's 192 Member States, also called on both parties to comply with their obligations under the Road Map plan, sponsored by the diplomatic Quartet of the United Nations, European Union, Russia and US, which seeks to establish a two-State solution of Israel and Palestine living side by side in peace and security within recognized borders


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:42 PM

How times change. Shopping the other day I was looking for some oranges, and just about to buy some that looked OK, when I noticed the label - Jaffa. And I remembered a CND march long ago on a sweltering day and a couple of lads running up and down the line selling oranges and saying - "boycott South Africa, these are Jaffa oranges" .

I look forward to the day when I"ll be able to buy Jaffa oranges, the way I can now buy South African.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM

I was not talking about settlers, although decent countries welcome them.
I was talking about claims if Israeli "terrorism" and " constantly punish and torture the generations who want to stay on their ancestral land"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM

Those who wish to remain on the land where their ancestors have lived for many generations are tolerated, under sufferance. Those who wish to return home are excluded, unless that claim relates to where ancestors are believed to have lived several thousand years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:36 PM

The people who defame Israel and wish to undermine its status in the world are not anti-Semites — or so they will tell you, every chance they get. Their denial of anti-Semitism is essential to their moral position. In their own view they are good progressives, therefore absolutely innocent of racial or religious discrimination. Their propaganda campaign, which they hope eventually will escalate into economic warfare, is intended merely to reshape Israel's policies.

What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.

Robert Fulford: The BDS smokescreen


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:15 PM

Ho- hum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:19 PM

Well said, bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:28 PM

Same old garbage, eh BooBad?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:07 PM

Same old insightful and erudite post, eh Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:01 PM

Hard to be insightful and erudite when what one is responding to is pure bullshit, BooBad.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:02 PM

Right Greg, thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:34 PM

>Stringgie, the QUOTE from the HAMAS charter is from THEIR website.>

Hamas is one faction of the Palestinian struggle but doesn't represent the BDS movement in its entirety. If that quote is in fact legitimate on their website, the lie is that BDS represents a violent solution to the problem, a propaganda technique that is propagated by AIPAC and the Zionist controlled Israeli government.

>What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.>

Actually, the same old fallacy, equating the oppressive actions of Zionism in the West Bank
with "leftist" politics, the same old red-baiting, the labeling and the complete denial of
any oppressive move that Israel makes, in short, part of the hackneyed propaganda that pervades US and Israeli policies. What the BDS movement wants to do really is have
Israeli government hacks see what they are doing to their country, isolating it with a
hawkish ideology that will preclude any solution to the mid-east crisis. It's the same
old "dreck".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 05:49 PM

Not quite sure what anyone means by this use of the term "Zionism" & its derivatives in a pejorative sense. It was the name of an international Jewish movement from late C19 to the proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region where the Jews had lived until the Roman conquest & the diaspora. What its unfavourable connotation may be in the senses it is being used at present by Israel's denunciators, as eg in Stringfellow's post above, is something I can by no means fathom.

This is in no way intended as a defence of those parts of Israeli policy which are agreed to be regrettable: simply a semantic enquiry.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 07:14 PM

The people who defame Israel and wish to undermine its status in the world are not anti-Semites — or so they will tell you, every chance they get. Their denial of anti-Semitism is essential to their moral position. In their own view they are good progressives, therefore absolutely innocent of racial or religious discrimination. Their propaganda campaign, which they hope eventually will escalate into economic warfare, is intended merely to reshape Israel's policies.

What they oppose, they want to assure us, is Israel's position in the West Bank. Their increasingly loud and self-confident BDS movement (Boycott, Divest, Sanction) is not, as they tell it, a struggle against the Jews. They simply want to bring Israel into line with enlightened leftist opinion in Europe, the U.S. and Canada.


Allow me to redraft the above misrepresenting piece of bile.

The people who criticise Israel government policy and who wish to remove its US-led immunity from true scrutiny are not antisemites. To be an antisemite you must display unreasonable and blanket condemnation of all Jewish people. The critics of the Israeli government are often moved towards denial of the antisemitism they are routinely accused of, mainly by ardent, blindfolded and insecure supporters of the Israeli regime, but they are seldom otherwise troubled by the term which, after all, does not apply to them. They are a mixed bunch (including a good number of Israeli Jews as well as many Jews outside Israel), but they do not claim to be progressives and would never make saintly assertions about their total freedom from racial or religious prejudice, though they often try quite hard to avoid stuff like that. Their campaign to raise awareness of the Israeli government's unjust discrimination against Arabs in both Israel and the occupied territories, as well as the ever-worsening grabbing of the best land for the exclusive use of Jews, not to speak of the dividing of Palestinian families with a concrete wall (we can discuss their military atrocities another time maybe) is certainly intended to persuade Israel to reshape its policies.

We do oppose Israel's land-grabbing in the West Bank. The "BDS" movement, for want of a better term, is an attempt to persuade the Israeli government to treat all it citizens fairly, not just Jews. It has nothing to do with some hidden leftist agenda (let's leave those fairy tales to the conspiracy theorists), and is certainly not a "struggle against Jews". Jewish people in history have endured more than their fair share of discrimination and level-headed people of whatever political persuasion know that further discrimination against Jews would leave us all in just as miserable state, or worse, as we're in at the moment. And, not least, it would be morally indefensible.

Get your bloody blinkers off, will you? Just because some of us don't share your unthinking brand of right-wing extremism doesn't mean we're all bloody commies, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 08:06 PM

Boobad knows, all right, Steve. He just doesn't CARE.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:36 PM

Agree, Steve, so far as it goes. However, would point out yet again that in 2005 the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (now Fundamental Rights Agency) published a working definition of antisemitism, which drew particular attention to the common practice of disguising antisemitism as being merely political objection to Israeli policies. It is by no means always a simple matter to determine when anti-Israel comment is just a disguised form of antisemitism. Often the context can help -- Israel is often denounced in BNP publications etc; but the distinction cannot always be so simply made.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:32 AM

It seems that the now common (on Mudcat) practice of the use of "Antisemitism" as a defence of criticism of the behaviour of the Israeli government has one purpose only - to stifle debate on the issues - if those using it can make the subject "Jewish" rather than Israeli, the subject becomes a no-go area.
Some of the bitterest critics of the Israeli government I have met have been Jewish friends, some of them active in the early days of the State of Israel, in the kibbutz movement.
The first time I heard Israel policy referred to as "fascist" was by a Manchester Jewish girl friend who had lost many of her family in the Holocaust.
Was she "Antisemitic"; are the American based 'Jews for Justice' all "Antisemites" - or 'Haaretz', or the many Jews who criticise Israeli policy, including from within Israel - often to the extreme.
There is a debate within Israel itself as to whether present Israeli policy can be described as promoting an 'Apartheid' state - an 'Anti-Jewish' plot from within maybe?
Last year I watched half a dozen former Israeli Secret Service heads discuss their work, on camera, in the film, The Gatekeepers.
Even if there was not enough evidence of the disturbing nature of Israeli Government policy shown via film clips, all of the six were critical of the present government, some extremely so.
One drew breath at the end of his sentence and stopped himself from using the term "fascist", shaking his head and choosing "unthinkable" instead.
Describing criticism of Israel as "Antisemitic", is not only cowardly apologist, is is extremely Antisemitic in itself.
It attributes all the crimes and human rights abuses that are being committed in Israel today to "the Jews".
Antisemitism has been responsible for the worst crimes in history, it has never gone away.
If Marine LePenn, who has been tipped as a future French Prime Minister, has her way, it will become a feature of European life in the not-to-distant future.
I watched an interview with her on television last week, and was fascinated to hear her talk about her overtures to Nigel Farrago, of Ukip, whom she apparently regards as a soulmate, which brings it all nearer home - the latest controversy of the racist nature of Ukip election publicity, indicates she may have a friend-in-waiting.
Crying "Antisemitic" wolf really isn't going to help in all this.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:24 AM

Agree with almost all that, Jim; except that I note you fail [not for the first time] to take account of the points I ref'd in the post before yours, ie those made in a significant report [you can google it] by an objective officially appointed European body. Criticism of Israel is in general just that; but if you persist in claiming that in 100% of cases it is not used as a mask for antisemitism, neverevereverever!, to give that prejudice a veneer of acceptability, then you are asserting more than you can possibly know, in direct contradiction of those who have gone more deeply than you into the question, about which they are better informed than you by the very fact of having dedicated much time to the production of an official, and respected report on it. You are often in the right on a lot of topics, Jim; but an occasional attack of uncharacteristic modesty, an admission that there might just now & then be occasions when your views are not those of an Infallible, would not come amiss.

Regards
~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:35 AM

I have never at any time dismissed or denied Antisemitism Mike, and it's more than a little disingenuous to describe by attitude as "an occasional attack of uncharacteristic modesty"
We all believe we have a case, and we put it as well as we can, but you, shamefully, have been one of those who have hidden behind the "Antisemitic" defence.
I stand by by attitude towards Israeli policy and past actions, and have stated as clearly as I am able why I believe as I do.
I also believe it to be one of the most dangerous policies in the world today because of where it is and who is involved.
In the end, all my postings have been on the effect of all this holy warfare, which is what it has become, on those who only stand and get slaughtered.
Religious and politicians can all burn in their own chosen hell as far as I'm concerned
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 06:08 AM

No I haven't. I detest the present Israeli regime far more than you ever can; your youth wasn't dedicated to bringing about the existence of the betrayal of all our hopes that they have become. But if you imagine that that fact obviates entirely the fact that hostility to that state can frequently be used as a useful but pretty well transparent veil for antisemitism, then you are not bringing to the matter the full use of your undoubted intelligence ~~~ and one can only sigh and wonder why!

Try asking yourself, just once...


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 07:30 AM

Really no need for abuse Mike - we do seem to be more or less on the same side on this question.
Antisemitism can come in all forms, but it doesn't make those who find what is happening in Israel today Antisemites, nor does it make their case any less valid.
If we could remove this Antisemitism shit from these arguments, maybe we could get down to addressing the facts of the situation calmly and without the rencour it inevitably causes - it is your crowd that has but up this particularly distasteful line of defence, just as it is the same people who have made these crimes "Jewish".
"Try asking yourself just once.... rather than slinging "Jew-baiter" about, as you have done.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:05 PM

>The proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region<

If this is the definition of Zionism, then Israel is a theocracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:17 PM

"The proclamation of Israel in 1948, to re-establish a Jewish state in the original, traditional biblical region"
Echoed by a settler interviewed in the excellent series of programmes on the history of the Jews who gave a chilling account of how far he believed the State of Israel should stretch.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:49 PM

Stringsinger -- The fact that Judaism is the official state religion no more makes Israel "a theocracy" than the fact that the Church of England is "Established" makes the UK one. Or are all countries with a state religion theocracies? In which case how is it as pejorative a term as you are obviously trying to make it sound?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM

Stringsinger doesn't have a problem with Christian states Vatican, most of Europe, All of South America) , or Muslim ones Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc…). He only objects to Jewish states.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:23 PM

Yes. And there's a word for it, isn't there? But we'd better not say it or poor old Jim might have 50 coniptions!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

A well-matched pair - keep it up and you'll have three of a kind.
Isn't it time you found another volcano to sit on Mike - that one must be getting pretty cold by now?
Anyway - must go.
I've promised not to hang around with thread-huggers - have a nice hate boys.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:48 PM

WAiting on future "BDS" of theocracies…


"

Currently, the following religions have been established as state religions in some countries. All are versions of Christianity, Islam or Buddhism.

Christian countries[edit]
The following states recognize some form of Christianity as their state or official religion (by denomination):

Catholic[edit]
Jurisdictions where Catholicism has been established as a state or official religion:

Alsace-Moselle
Argentina[5]
Costa Rica[6]
Liechtenstein[7]
Malta[8]
Monaco[9]
Vatican City (theocracy)
Other
Andorra
Dominican Republic
El Salvador,[10]
Panama
Paraguay,[11] Peru,[12]
Poland,[13]
Spain[14]
Portugal
Ireland
The above listed countries also give constitutional privileges to Catholicism without necessarily referring to it as the state religion.

Eastern Orthodox[edit]
Jurisdictions where one of the Eastern Orthodox Churches has been established as a state religion:

Greece: Church of Greece[15]
Mount Athos (officially the 'Autonomous Monastic State of the Holy Mountain')
Georgia: Georgian Orthodox Church[16] (See Concordat of 2002)
Other
The Finnish Orthodox Church[17] is not the state religion of Finland but has a special relationship with the Finnish state. The internal structure of the church is described in the Orthodox Church Act. The church has a power to tax its members, and receives a share of corporate tax revenue of the state.[18] The church does not consider itself a state church, as the state does not have the authority to affect its internal workings or theology.

Protestantism[edit]
Lutheran[edit]
Jurisdictions where a Lutheran church has been established as a state religion include the Nordic countries. Membership is very high among the general population, however the amount of actively participating members and believers is considerably lower than in many other countries with similar membership statistics. Furthermore, all of these churches have lately seen decline in the percentage of the population being members.

Denmark (Church of Denmark)[19] Also the Church of the Faroe Islands is the state church of the Faroe Islands, a territory of Denmark.
Iceland (Church of Iceland)[20] (76.81% of population members at 1 January 2012) [21]
Norway (Church of Norway)[22][23][24]
Other
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland has a special relationship with the Finnish state, its internal structure being described in a special law, the Church Act.[17] The Church Act can be amended only by a decision of the synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church and subsequent ratification by the Parliament of Finland. The Church Act is protected by the Finnish Constitution and the state can not change the Church Act without changing the constitution. The church has a power to tax its members and all corporations unless a majority of shareholders are members of the Finnish Orthodox Church. The state collects these taxes for the church, for a fee. On the other hand, the church is required to give a burial place for everyone in its graveyards.[25] (77.2% of population members at the end of 2011).[26] The President of the Republic of Finland also decides the themes for intercession days. The church does not consider itself a state church, as the Finnish state does not have the power to influence its internal workings or its theology, although it has a veto in those changes of the internal structure which require changing the Church Act. Neither does the Finnish state accord any precedence to Lutherans or the Lutheran faith in its own acts.

Sweden relegated their state church, Church of Sweden, to a national church in 2000. In late 2011 the Church of Sweden had 68.8% of the population as its members although only around 20% of the Swedish population believes in any religion. Memberships are high because until 1996 membership was automatic for children of members. Since 1996, baptism is the basis for membership.[27]

Reformed[edit]
Jurisdictions where a Reformed church has been established as a state religion:

Tuvalu (Church of Tuvalu)
Other
The Church of Scotland is recognized as the national church of Scotland, but is not a state church and thus differs from the Church of England. Its constitution, which is recognised by acts of the British Parliament, gives it complete independence from the state in spiritual matters.[28]

At the cantonal state level in Switzerland, of 26 Swiss cantons, 24 give official recognition to both the Roman Catholic Church and the Swiss Reformed Church. The Cantons of Geneva and Neuchâtel have no state recognized church. At the federal state level, Switzerland has no official religion.

Anglican[edit]
See also: State religion#Tabular summary
Jurisdictions where an Anglican church has been established as a state religion:

England (Church of England)
The Church of England is the officially established religious institution [29] in England, and also the Mother Church of the worldwide Anglican Communion. It is the only established Anglican Church. The British monarch is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England and is Defender of the Faith. In 19th century England there was a campaign by Liberals, dissenters and nonconformists to disestablish the Church of England, even when most of its privileges had been removed by Parliament. The campaigners styled themselves "Liberationists" (the "Liberation Society" was founded by Edward Miall in 1853). Though their campaign failed, nearly all of the legal disabilities of nonconformists were gradually dismantled. The campaign for disestablishment was revived in the 20th century when Parliament rejected the 1929 revision of the Book of Common Prayer, leading to calls for separation of Church and State to prevent political interference in matters of worship.

Lords Spiritual, who are the 26 most senior Archbishops and Bishops in the Church are reserved seats in Parliament in the House of Lords. The Archbishop of Canterbury, Archbishop of York, Bishop of London, Bishop of Durham, and the Bishop of Winchester sit automatically with the 21 longest-serving Bishops.

Muslim countries[edit]
Main articles: Political aspects of Islam, Sharia, Caliphate, Islamic religious police (disambiguation), and Islamism

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (April 2012)
Many Muslim-majority countries have constitutionally established Islam, or a specific form of it, as a state religion. Proselytism on behalf of other religions is often illegal.

Islam (non-denominational)[edit]
Bangladesh (Section 2A of the 1972 constitution specifies, "The state religion of the Republic is Islam, but other religions may be practiced in peace and harmony in the Republic."[30])
Iraq
Djibouti[31]
Pakistan[32]
Palestine[33]
Sunni Islam[edit]
Afghanistan Algeria Brunei Comoros Egypt Jordan Libya Maldives Malaysia Mauritania Morocco Qatar Saudi Arabia Somalia Tunisia United Arab Emirates
Shiʾa Islam[edit]
Iran (theocracy)
Ibadi[edit]
Oman
Mixed Shia and Sunni[edit]
Kuwait
Yemen (Zaydi fiqh among Zaydi Shias)
Bahrain
Buddhist countries[edit]
Governments where Buddhism, either a specific form of, or the whole, has been established as an official religion:

Theravada Buddhism[edit]
Cambodia[34]
Other
The constitution of Sri Lanka accords Buddhism the "foremost place", although it does not identify it as a state religion.[35]

Likewise, in Thailand, the 2007 Thai constitution recognized Buddhism as "the religion of Thai tradition with the most adherents".[citation needed] However, it is not formally identified as a state religion.

Vajrayana Buddhism[edit]
Bhutan (Drukpa Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism)[36]
Israel[edit]
Israel is defined in several of its laws as a "Jewish and democratic state" (medina yehudit ve-demokratit). However, the term "Jewish" is a polyseme that can describe the Jewish people as both an ethnic or a religious group. The debate about the meaning of the term "Jewish" and its legal and social applications is one of the most profound issues with which Israeli society deals.

The State of Israel supports religious institutions, particularly Orthodox Jewish ones, and recognizes the "religious communities" as carried over from those recognized under the British Mandate. These are: Jewish and Christian (Eastern Orthodox, Latin [Catholic], Gregorian-Armenian, Armenian-Catholic, Syrian [Catholic], Chaldean [Uniate], Greek Catholic Melkite, Maronite, and Syrian Orthodox). The fact that the Muslim population was not defined as a religious community is a vestige of the Ottoman period[citation needed] during which Islam was the dominant religion and does not affect the rights of the Muslim community to practice their faith. At the end of the period covered by this report, several of these denominations were pending official government recognition; however, the Government has allowed adherents of not officially recognized groups freedom to practice. In 1961, legislation gave Muslim Shari'a courts exclusive jurisdiction in matters of personal status. Three additional religious communities have subsequently been recognized by Israeli law: the Druze (prior under Islamic jurisdiction), the Evangelical Episcopal Church, and the Bahá'í.[37] These groups have their own religious courts as official state courts for personal status matters (see millet system).

The structure and goals of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel are governed by Israeli law, but the law does not say explicitly that it is a state Rabbinate. However, outspoken Israeli secularists such as Shulamit Aloni and Uri Avnery have long maintained that it is that in practice. Non-recognition of other streams of Judaism such as Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism is the cause of some controversy; rabbis belonging to these currents are not recognized as such by state institutions and marriages performed by them are not recognized as valid. As of 2011 marriage in Israel provides no provision for civil marriage, marriage between people of different religions, marriages by people who do not belong to one of nine recognised religious communities, or same-sex marriages, although there is recognition of marriages performed abroad.

Political religions[edit]
In some countries, there is a political ideology sponsored by the government that may be called political religion.[38]"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

but the distinction cannot always be so simply made.

It can be simply made inside my head. I'm honest and I'm not antisemitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

Anyway - must go.
I've promised not to hang around with thread-huggers
J Carroll

Contemptible scaredy-cat. Nyaahhhhh!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 02:10 PM

I've been trying for a while to take more care with terminology on this issue. I'm not antisemitic and I don't want to be called it, so I don't talk about "the Jewish lobby" for example (try pro-Israel lobby instead) and I try to remember that, in opposing such horrid policies as settlement expansion, the splitting apart of Palestinian families and the use of white phosphorus in Gaza, I am talking about the Israeli government's actions and not "Israel". Plenty of people in Israel, of all persuasions, I'm led to believe, hate what goes on and hate being tarred with the one brush. What the Israeli government does, deliberately to Palestinians and unintentionally to Israeli Jews, is bad for everyone in that country, men, women and children. They all deserve a better deal than the one on offer from their boneheaded and hubris-smitten political leaders (and from the ones in their poodle state, the US). That's my take and I'm sticking to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM

"Only those with pathetically short time horizons, an abysmally poor knowledge of history, or simply implacable anti-Semitic leanings will refuse to acknowledge why after two millennia of persecution a Jewish homeland was finally created and why its moral legitimacy and physical existence is simply beyond denial."

http://news.yahoo.com/passover-hell-week-190000272--politics.html


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:58 PM

"Contemptible scaredy-cat. Nyaahhhhh!"
You've already had your third childhood - at least - can't have that many more left.
You've been given the facts - you choose to ignore them - sticking out your tongue doesn't hack it.
Just in case you missed it
15 Feb 14 - 03:13 AM
or
23 Apr 14 - 03:32 AM
Jamaica Inn awaits - must get my night-viewing glasses
Sleep well and pleasant dreams
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:57 PM

Only those with ... implacable anti-Semitic leanings will refuse to acknowledge... [the] moral legitimacy and physical existence is simply beyond denial.

Cute, BBruce. Real cute.

But that doesn't "legitimize" the current policies of the Israeli GOVERNMENT.

I'm personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government and who are thus by your definition and that of BooBad & the other Israeli apoligists on this forum "Anti-Semites".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

"The BDS campaign has two main ingredients -- one is deception and the other is another kind of lie."

No, the great lie is the overt propaganda offered by the Israeli government.

"In some countries, there is a political ideology sponsored by the government that may be called political religion."

Not in a democracy. Thomas Jefferson had a lot to say about that.

Although Israel has many church affiliates within its borders, they are permitted only if they don't interfere with the occupation of Palestinians.

"WAiting on future "BDS" of theocracies…"

That sounds like a very good idea. Fortunately, the advanced countries of the world are not subjected to theocratic pressure.

It must be remembered that Arabs, Palestinians and Muslims in general can't be anti-Semitic because they are anthropologically classified as Semites as well as Jews.

BB says about me, "Stringsinger doesn't have a problem with Christian states Vatican, most of Europe, All of South America) , or Muslim ones Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, etc…). He only objects to Jewish states."

I must tell him that he is grossly misinformed and has not bothered to ask what I really think about this issue but like some here wants to corner me by his verbal traps.

I have a problem with Christian States, Muslim States or any theocracy that doesn't observe the Separation of Church and State as we have traditionally done in the US since the inception of our Constitution which defines us as Americans.

I don't think BB is qualified to comment on what takes place in "most of Europe" or "all of South America" which is becoming more and more enlightened and unchurched.

As in the US, the governments of many countries have been corrupted by clerical power
however, in time this will be rectified in the same manner as corporate power here in the States becomes apparent.

"Stringsinger -- The fact that Judaism is the official state religion no more makes Israel "a theocracy" than the fact that the Church of England is "Established" makes the UK one. Or are all countries with a state religion theocracies? In which case how is it as pejorative a term as you are obviously trying to make it sound? "

Then perhaps you can explain Zionism to me reasonably and its predication on scriptural references. The Church of England is being ignored and not used as a method of occupation, though in the past, this might have taken place. Yes, all countries with a state religion could be classified as a theocracy especially if it takes its form in controlling official governmental decisions. I am merely explaining that a country that uses religion to base its political decisions as does Israel and Saudi Arabia are in fact theocracies. Pejorative is not the word I have used.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:39 PM

String: If you google Theodor Herzl, Zionism, and Der Judenstaat [title of Herzl's pamphlet genarally accepted as the founding document of Zionism as a political movement] you will find that its impetus was political and secular, and only marginally, if at all, relgiously based. Israel is no more a theocracy than any other modern state with an established religion, to which it is not in any way mandatory to belong to achieve citizenship. There are religious political parties, to be sure, but plenty of secular ones also; religion plays no more part in Israeli political decisions and policies than does the presence of bishops in the House of Lords here in the UK.

And do for heaven's sake drop the tired dreary old bromide about how some people, other than Jews, who happen also to be ethnically Semitic can't be antisemitic in the accepted sense of the term, which in accepted usage applies solely to hostility to Jews. There are perfectly good semantic and historical reasons for this which only a dishonestly motivated hair-splitting maker of crass non-applicable debating points would ignore. Here eg is the opening of wikipedia's entry:

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.[1] A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite". As Jews are an ethnoreligious group, antisemitism is generally considered a form of racism.
While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[2] and that has been its normal use since then.[3] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[4]


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:50 PM

One notes that the Israeli leadership has pulled out of talks with the Palestinians because Hamas is back in the fold. Yeah, right. This is hardly news at all, is it. Not once in the sorry history of the Israel/Palestine conflict has Israel been serious about peace talks. Why not? Because Israel does not have to make one single concession, ever. Why's that? Because the USA, Israel's poodle (and AIPAC will always make sure it stays that way), will neither criticise nor sanction Israel in any way, no matter how egregious Israel's atrocities may be. Big news on the Beeb tonight, it was, but a big bloody ho-hum from me.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM

The tragedy is that by failing to make a peaceful settlement of the conflict at this time - preferring to make other illegal type of settlement - the Government of Israel is making it increasingly probable that in the long term the country called Israel will have the same transitory existence ad the Crusader Kingdoms in the Holy Land.

And that really would be a tragedy in all kinds of ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 08:12 PM

And, of course, Israel wil abjure any and all responsibility in that unfortunate outcome


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:00 PM

MgM, the idea that Zionism is a secular movement doesn't even take into account the meaning of the term, that borrowed from the Old Testament. In fact, the religious political parties dominate the policies of Israel and that the idea that the rabbis of Israel play no part in Israeli politics than does the house of bishops is blatantly incorrect.
That is analogous to the same propaganda that is given when we call the US a democracy today.

As far as the "dreary old bromide" to insist that the term Semitic be applied to only Jewish people is prejudicial and racist. The only accepted usage of the term being applied to Jews only is a propaganda device that has no relevance in today's Mid-East conflicts.

If you trust Wikipedia's entry, than I suggest that you take into account Tom Lehrer's
dictum: "Those who seek their knowledge through the internet deserve all the disinformation they get."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,JotSC
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM

Stringsinger wrote, "As far as the "dreary old bromide" to insist that the term Semitic be applied to only Jewish people is prejudicial and racist."

Well, Frank, I know of no one here, nor at any place else I've heard or read, who has insisted that Semitic refers only to Jews. It doesn't and you know it! On the other hand, the terms "anti-Semite" and anti-Semitic has been the specific euphemism for anti-Jewish since the last quarter of the 19th century until very recently. The recent cooption of Palestineans and perhaps Arabs in general into that term has been by folks who wish to persuade the world that if one is on the side of Palestineans or Arabs then one cannot be an anti-Semite. That form of 'new speak' says a lot to me about the person who uses it, and defends their that usage--and what tells me is quite negative. We, at Mudcat, have had this discussion many times, and you've over over the past 10 or 12 years, and I believe you may have taken part in at least some of them.

Henceforth, I will consider your mal use of the term, or anyone else's, here, to be a priori proof of antisemitism against Jews and Israel, in its true meaning.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,JotSC
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:44 PM

Steve Shaw wrote, "Not once in the sorry history of the Israel/Palestine conflict has Israel been serious about peace talks... Because Israel does not have to make one single concession, ever."

A Big Pinocchio for that statement! Just a couple of refutations: Israel returned Gaza to the Palestineans to try to get substantive peace talks from the other side, and got bombs as a Palestinean compromise; on several, perhaps many, occasions Israel has released Palestinean prisoners, by the scores and hundreds, hoping to gain peace talks, and getting little or no positive response.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:09 PM

"Israel returned Gaza to the Palestinians". Jesus, man, you make it sound like it was an act of alms-giving or something. Gaza was a game not worth the bloody candle to Israel, that's why it was "returned" (and I remind you that it wasn't Israel's to "return" in the first place). And it didn't take long, once Israel had "returned" Gaza, for them to besiege it and impoverish one and a half million imprisoned people. Not to speak of the war crimes visited on that place in the years to follow. Still, "John", one wouldn't expect you to understand any of that, would one, especially as you seem rather prone to calling honest people liars. Are you one of the bloody mods here or something?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM

"But if you imagine that that fact obviates entirely the fact that hostility to that state can frequently be used as a useful but pretty well transparent veil for antisemitism, then you are not bringing to the matter the full use of your undoubted intelligence ~~~ and one can only sigh and wonder why!"

We know very well that there are those who try to hide antisemitism behind the veil of criticism of Israel's politicians, but it is disingenuous on your part to pretend that Bobad and K A of H are not countering every single criticism with that argument, and constantly trying (unsuccessfully) to manoeuvre us into using the term Jew or Jewish and thereby giving credence to their accusations.

Do you see them as they obviously see themselves, as the only non antisemitic posters on this forum, or would you disassociate yourself from their obvious hard wired "Israel, right or wrong" attitude?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 03:43 PM

"One notes that the Israeli leadership has pulled out of talks with the Palestinians because Hamas is back in the fold."

I would have thought that Israel might have chosen negotiators possessed of the intelligence to realise that, since Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and Fatah the government of the West Bank, any peace settlement would, of necessity, include both.

The fact that the talks broke down over this point means that either
1). The negotiators are incompetent and should be replaced, or
2). There was never any intention that the talks should succeed.

What's your guess as to which?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 07:37 PM

It really is very simple. The Israeli regime does not have to make a single tiny concession of any kind, nor does it have to refrain from any atrocities against Palestinians. It can do what it likes, without fear of sanction, apropos of land-grabbing and the perpetration of military atrocities. Why? because it has the unconditional backing of the United States for whatever it does. Oh yes, we get the little slaps on the wrist when they do something horrible, but those slaps on the wrist are for our consumption only, They mean nothing. When Obama visits Jerusalem, Netanyahu announces more settlement expansion. The US is Israel's poodle. Why? Largely because the US media is solidly behind Israel to such an extent that people in the US never get the story, and largely because there is a pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, that will ensure that any hopeful White House incumbent (or any other politician) will be toast the minute they brief against Israel. Oh yes. In the land of the free, the least democratic organisation in the western world holds all the cards. Ironic, huh?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 AM

Steve Shaw, you are absolutely right, and that is why my support for Israel, 7 decades after all the youthful energy I & my generation expended in trying to achieve its existence, is now nil: to my intense horror & disappointment as detailed in my reply to Michaelr's excellent question on the Islamic Radicalism thread, 25 Apr, 1241 am.

Troubadour: I agree that some like bobad & Keith are overplaying the "anti-Israel = antisemitic" card, which I do my best to avoid doing; but I thank you for conceding that denunciations of Israel can, and often do, try to mask underlying antisemitism tout simple.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:53 AM

nor does it have to refrain from any atrocities against Palestinians

There is such a thing as international law that would deal with an atrocity if one was ever committed.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 08:54 AM

"There is such a thing as international law that would deal with an atrocity if one was ever committed."
Successfully neutralised by over 100 vetoes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 09:19 AM

" bobad & Keith are overplaying the "anti-Israel = antisemitic" card,"

I don't recall stating that anti-Israel = antisemitic. I have used as my guideline the definitions put forward by the EUMC, the Ottawa Protocol and by the eminent champion of human rights, Irwin Cotler. Once again here are some examples of what constitutes anti-semitism according to their definitions. I don't think it can be denied that some of our more rabid anti Israel posters have invoked one or more of these calumnies.
   
   * Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;

   * Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

   * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;

   * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

   * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.[40][41]

The EUMC added that criticism of Israel cannot be regarded as antisemitism so long as it is "similar to that leveled against any other country.

Also consider this argument from Irwin Cotler:

Cotler argues that classical antisemitism is discrimination against Jews as individuals whereas the new antisemitism, in contrast, "is anchored in discrimination against the Jews as a people – and the embodiment of that expression in Israel. In each instance, the essence of anti-Semitism is the same – an assault upon whatever is the core of Jewish self-definition at any moment in time."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:55 AM

"I don't recall stating that anti-Israel = antisemitic"
You have never stopped calling those who criticise Israel "antisemites BooBoo - even pulled up sites to back up your case
Senility approaches fast, it would appear.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 12:31 PM

'You have never stopped calling those who criticise Israel "antisemites BooBoo [SIC]"

I have used as my guideline the definitions put forward by the EUMC, the Ottawa Protocol and by the eminent champion of human rights, Irwin Cotler.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 01:45 PM

Uh-Huh.

I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government and who are thus by your definition and that of BooBad & the other Israeli apoligists on this forum "Anti-Semites".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:17 PM

"I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the thousands upon thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the policies of the current Israeli government...."

Oh yeah.....well I'm still personally quite happy & content to stand with the millions upon millions of Israeli citizens who support the policies of the current Israeli government.....so there.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:48 PM

No vetoes on "atrocities."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:55 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah - sure there isn't - after all, they ain't atrocities if they're vetoed, are they?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:20 PM

Well let's just have a little look at some of these, boibabd.



The sencond part of thdt represernts a non seq

   * Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;

   * Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;

   * Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

   * Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:46 PM

That last message of mine got all garbled. Ignore. This is what I intended:


Well let's just have a little look at some of these, bobad.

Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor

The second part of that does not follow on from the first. I have never denied the right of Israel to have self-determination (to the chagrin of some of my allies, who might wish I were more hawkish on that point), but by their fruits shall ye know them. The Israeli regime, and the regimes going back seventy years, have all behaved in a racist manner towards Palestinians. In the name of the Jewish state they are denied the good land, freedom of movement and equal rights. Because they are not Jews. This may be uncomfortable for you but it is undeniable.   

Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Oh yes, a double standard applies all right. Any other nation that steals land from another people (let's have a look at Russia, for example) is heavily criticised and sanctioned. But not Israel. AIPAC will always see to that.   

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis

I never see that in rational discourse. Even rabid anti-Israel types would see that as barking mad.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

Give me an example. I've never seen one.

You are clearly an unfortunate victim of your one-sided media and of your pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC. Otherwise you wouldn't hbve posted this nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:38 PM

Steve: I am with you in much of your last post; but re this section -
...
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above.
--
...
If you have follow other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads] with whom I have fre


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:45 PM

My last post got garbled too -- what is it with this thread! Should have read in full thus --

Steve: I am with you in much of your last post; but re this section -
...
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Most people I know who oppose Israeli policies know full well that such a comparison is ludicrous. See above.
--
...
If you have followed other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads] with whom I have frequently clashed over his incurable insistence on doing just that. He has once or twice promised to refrain from doing so when I have pointed out how offensive it is. I hope he has stopped doing it now.

I refrain from naming him here, but he is following, and contributing to, this thread, and will know I mean him.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:11 PM

the millions upon millions of Israeli citizens who support the policies of the current Israeli government

No surprise there, BooBad, but somewhat irrelevant to the point under discussion, which is your labelling of anyone who opposes the policies of said government as antisemitic.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:29 PM

"....your labelling of anyone who opposes the policies of said government as antisemitic."

Please re-read for comprehension.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:31 PM

I'll remind you of your last post next time you play the antisemetic card, BooBad. Count on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:42 PM

You guys just give me too many opportunities.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:59 PM

So BooBad: you would then agree with the statement that the thousands of Israeli citizens who oppose the actions of the current Israeli government are indeed antisemites.

Thanks for the confirmation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:15 PM

Right Greg, you're a barrel of laughs....ha, ha.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 07:55 PM

I did say "most" people I know, Michael. There will always be the barking mad (and I'm not sure who you mean - not a mate of mine, one hopes!)


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 08:00 PM

You guys just give me too many opportunities.

Yes we do, and you serially fail to take them, either because all you do is quote some irrelevant source or come up with one-liner quips which you think are clever but which are actually brainless. You are just a lazy, prejudiced and unreconstructed right-wing git, let's face it. And this is another opportunity you will fail to take in any meaningful sense. Go on, I'm waiting. Prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Jimmy Carter, John Kerry and Their Best Friends
Posted: 04/28/2014 8:10 am EDT Updated: 04/28/2014 8:59 am EDT Print Article
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MORE: Israeli Palestinian Conflict Apartheid The New York Times Jimmy Carter Palestinian Territories Syria Violence John Kerry
When it comes to opining on Israel and the ongoing tensions and deliberations between Israelis and Palestinians, the views of the likes of President Jimmy Carter (his book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid) and Secretary of State Kerry among other dignitaries and pundits are not far apart. Their host of scribbles and public posturing serve to fortify each other: that the Israelis are intransigent, unbending and worst of all, by bandying those freighted words 'colonizers' added to Carter's and now John Kerry's 'apartheid', serving to portray Israel's presence in the West Bank as both an occupation and worse, imbuing it with the trappings of a colonial subjugation thereby helping to rationalize and validate any and all attempts at Israel's delegitimization.

What is routinely overlooked by these pundits, is that Israel's presence on the West Bank is the consequence of the massive mobilization of Arab armies on Israel's borders poised to attack Israel, thereby sparking the onset of hostilities in 1967. Israel's presence on the West Bank is referred to misguidedly and simply as "won by Israel in the 1967 war.." (Please see Thomas Friedman's New York Times Op-ed "Sheldon: Iran's Best Friend") with no mention that the genesis of the 1967 war was to defend the integrity of the Israeli state against a brace of Arab armies intent not only on eliminating Israel, but one could surmise -- given the myriad examples of Arab intolerance between Shia and Sunni in contemporary Syria and Iraq, the ongoing slaughter in Syria, given the teachings of Wahhabi scripture, Salafist indoctrination or the goals of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Jew hatred taught in Arab madrassas or the vile bile emanating from Hamas Palestinians as well as from Hezbollah among others -- that a successful invasion by Arab States over Israel might well have resulted not only in the elimination of the Jewish State but also in the murderous destruction of its Jewish citizenry.

Far fetched you say? One needs understand in the deep consciousness of virtually every Jew is the reality of history, namely the profound perversity of Deutschland's Auschwitz.

Certainly there are many issues that both sides need to accommodate, but pundits rationalizing the isolation of Israel will only make the Palestinians more intransigent and the Israelis more fearful of the long shadow of history and their sworn determination that it will happen "Never Again."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/raymond-j-learsy/jimmy-carter-john-kerry-a_b_5224846.html


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

…"Leading experts, including Richard Goldstone, a former justice of the South African Constitutional Court who led the United Nations fact-finding mission on the Gaza conflict of 2008 and 2009, have argued that comparisons between the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians and "apartheid" are offensive and wrong.

"One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues 'apartheid' policies," Goldstone wrote in The New York Times in 2011. "It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations."

In a 2008 interview with Jeffrey Goldberg, then-Sen. Barack Obama shot down the notion that the word "apartheid" was acceptable in a discussion about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians:

"There's no doubt that Israel and the Palestinians have tough issues to work out to get to the goal of two states living side by side in peace and security, but injecting a term like apartheid into the discussion doesn't advance that goal," Obama said. "It's emotionally loaded, historically inaccurate, and it's not what I believe.":

http://news.yahoo.com/kerry-warns-israeli-apartheid-231200692--politics.html


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM

Israeli apartheid


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM

So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?


That was 1923- and the Arab Muslims got sole rights to 76+ percent of the Mandate Palestine territory as their "Muslim Homeland" NO Jews allowed.

The remainder was to be the "Jewish Homeland"





Are you saying the Israel should be held to the same standard as the Arabs Muslims have been, or not?

If not, why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:26 AM

So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?


Ah jaysus, BB- not that old canard again. Don'y you ever tire of straw men and putting words in other prople's mouths?

Raymond J. Learsy? I'm sure that the opinion of a a former Wall Street commodities trader is certainly an "expert" one on the Middle East and Israel. Not.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM

GregF,



How is it a canard?

As usual, you make an unsupported comment that is in conflict with the facts.

That is a lie- which is your field of expertise.


Do YOU hold Israel to the same standards as you do the Arab nations? If not, why not?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

"If you have followed other threads on this topic, you will know that there is one regular poster [on this & every other of these threads]"
You persist in ignoring the fact that this comparison was made by one of the former heads of the Israeli Secret Service in the documentary, "The Gatekeepers" - an Israeli patriot - horse's mouth, so to speak.
I desisted from making that comparison in respect of your feelings the description - I no longer feel it necessary to do so as your hypocrisy as destroyed any respect I might once have had.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM

GregF,

Care to tell me of ANY borders accepted by the Arab nations AFTER the 1923 set?

If my comment is a canard, you can supply them- if not, you are being your usual scumbag lying self.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 02:54 PM

your usual scumbag lying self.

I love you too, BullshitBruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:01 PM

GregF,

YOU have never provided anything other than your statements that I have ever presented bullshit.

I have presented multiple thread posts by you showing you are a lying scumbag.


Waiting for your statement of what borders the Arab nations have recognized after 1923.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:40 AM

"So, Stringsinger, you are willing to go back to the last borders accepted by the Arab nations?"

I think the 1967 borders would be adequate as suggested by Palestinians.

Peace talks could be negotiated if there wasn't a highly orchestrated military occupation of Palestinians. No one has shown me evidence to the contrary that makes any sense at all.

The trouble is that Israeli theocracy runs counter to Arab theocracy and at the root of the problem is a "holy war". Many people wish to deny this because they place so much importance in their "belief" systems.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:59 AM

The pre attack ( i.e., 1948 borders that were the result of a war) or the post attack ( 1967 borders that were the result of a war) borders?


And why should we NOT use the 1923 borders?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 05:52 PM

Lets go back to the 1099 borders, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:23 AM

The "Palestinians" did not accept the 1967 borders in 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM

OK, you don't like the 1099 borders. How about the 1149 borders, then?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM

If you don't like the past borders, why not just accept the PRESENT ones?????


ANd the Israelis can treat the Palestinians JUST like the Arabs treated the Jews in the West Bank in 1948, since you approve of the way the Arabs ave treated the Palestinians so much.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM

the Israelis can treat the Palestinians JUST like the Arabs treated the Jews in the West Bank in 1948

But Mommy, Mommy! Johnny does it! Why Can't I ???!!!
[ NB: see Piaget's preoperational stage ]


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:23 AM

So, GregF,

You will continue to hold Israel to a set of standards that you will not allow to be applied to the Arab nations???


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM

See post 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AMBBruce- with particular attention to Piaget.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:35 PM

GregF,

If you cannot address the topic, or give a reasonable reply to posts, you will ( continue to) be only a waste of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 01:55 PM

Again:

If you object to 1923 borders because they are "old", why not start with TODAY's border instead of demanding that negotiations start with the pre-1967 borders?

Why is Israel being held to standards that the Arab nations are not held to?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:26 PM

Greg: Where, please, do you perceive 'genetic epistemology' coming into it?

Genuinely curious.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:51 PM

Only in ther sense of cognitive structures, and which level BBruce has apparently reached.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

Ah. Piaget always seems to me like most of Gallic philosophising* -- pompous asseverations of the obvious, with much pompous & portentous obfuscating vocabulary, and a faintly comic air of astoundingly complex conceptualisation having been laboriously uncovered.


~M~

*Most philosophy, in fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:55 PM

Did you mean to describe Piaget or Bruce?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:17 PM

What peace process?

It seems that Israel doesn't even want to accept "today's" borders.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:04 PM

Israeli spying on US at 'alarming level'
AFP May 7, 2014

The main targets for Israeli spies are US industrial and technical secrets, according to a report in Newsweek magazine

Washington (AFP) - Israel spies on the United States more than any other ally does and these activities have reached an alarming level, Newsweek magazine reported on Tuesday.

The main targets are US industrial and technical secrets, the weekly said, quoting classified briefings on legislation that would make it easier for Israeli citizens to get visas to enter America.

Newsweek said a congressional staffer familiar with a briefing last January called the testimony "very sobering ... alarming ... even terrifying", and quoted another as saying the behavior was "damaging."

"No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do," said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, according to Newsweek.

"I don't think anyone was surprised by these revelations," the former aide was quoted as saying. "But when you step back and hear ... that there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes, it is quite shocking."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:29 PM

"Officials said the internal review turned up NSA monitoring of some 35 world leaders, in the U.S. government's first public acknowledgment that it tapped the phones of world leaders. European leaders have joined international outrage over revelations of U.S. surveillance of Ms. Merkel's phone and of NSA's monitoring of telephone call data in France."

Spy vs. spy


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:09 PM

OK, BooBad - you're back to the toddler's defense: But Mommy - billy did it too!

See 30 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:28 PM

Or are you just singling out Israel Greggie because.........well we can guess why.

Industrial espionage


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:34 PM

Well BooBad - because I'm an anti-semite, of course.

More the usualI see - we've been through your & BSBruce's Mommy! MOMMY! nonsense before. Many times. Its boring- and its still bullshit.

Now, about that Israeli spying..............


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:39 PM

Oh, and BooBad- for your benefit, once again:

"No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do," said a former congressional staffer who attended another classified briefing in late 2013, according to Newsweek.

"I don't think anyone was surprised by these revelations," the former aide was quoted as saying. "But when you step back and hear ... that there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes, it is quite shocking."

Its hardly ME that's "singling out Israel" -


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:14 PM

"(Reuters) - The U.S. National Security Agency is involved in industrial espionage and will grab any intelligence it can get its hands on regardless of its value to national security, former NSA contractor Edward Snowden told a German TV network."


Snowden says NSA engages in industrial espionage


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:21 PM

All industrialized countries that can get away with it do it but when the Jews do it well then that becomes worthy of a Greggie post.....of course it would.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:44 AM

but when the Jews do it well then that becomes worthy of a Greggie post

Sorry, BooBad.

1. "The Jews" aren't "doing it", as many have pointed out before me, you bigoted fool. The Israeli government is.

2. It isn't a "Greggie Post" - its a news story all over the various media outlets. Which story you apparently would like supressed.

3. Once again, with the toddler's defense: But MOMMY! - Billy did it FIRST! Come back when you have advanced beyond the mental age of two.

4. And again: No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do...........there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes

I know you dwell in a fact-free environment, but DO try to pay attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:01 AM

"4. And again: No other country close to the United States continues to cross the line on espionage like the Israelis do...........there are no other countries taking advantage of our security relationship the way the Israelis are for espionage purposes"

But MOMMY the Jews are better at it than anyone else.......that's not fair....waaah!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 14 - 10:11 AM

But MOMMY the Jews are better at it than anyone else.......that's not fair....waaah!

You really ARE an idiot, ain'tcha, BooBoo?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 11:50 AM

Israel isn't, and will never be, an apartheid state

Outside of the West Bank, in Jerusalem and elsewhere in Israel, Jews and Arabs mix freely and increasingly live in the same neighborhoods. Arabs serve in Israel's parliament, in its army and on its Supreme Court. And though discrimination in Israel , as in America, remains a scourge, there is no imposed segregation. Go to any Israeli mall, any restaurant or hospital, and you will see Arabs and Jews interacting.

This reality has not prevented Israel's enemies from branding it with the apartheid label. They do so not to achieve a better peace arrangement with Israel but to isolate it internationally and to eliminate it through sanctions. We Jews remember how each attempt to obliterate us, whether in the Inquisition or during the Holocaust, was preceded by a campaign to delegitimize us. People who practice apartheid are easily considered illegitimate.

Israel is not an apartheid state and will not become one, even if the Palestinians continue to reject peace. However unwittingly, those who associate apartheid with Israel are aiding the third and perhaps ultimate stage in the effort to destroy the nation. They are also committing a grave injustice to the millions of American and South African blacks who were the victims of true apartheid.

LA Times


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:14 PM

Whoops
ISRAEL IS ALREADY AN APARTHEID STATE
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:48 PM

Why "Whoops", Jim? Two articles taking diametrically opposed views on a matter of definition, and how far the facts support the chosen definition of each author, is scarcely so convincing a proof that the second one, contradicting the first, must so definitively carry the argument to a triumphant conclusion, as to merit a "Whoops" to imply that the one who cited the first has been absolutely put in his place and left without a leg to stand on by the demonstrably unchallengeable factual and intellectual superiority of his interlocutor. Do better to fight it out with custard-pies at 20 paces than to imagine that you have overwhelmingly demolished anyone's argument simply by exclaiming "Whoops"!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 12:59 PM

Israel isn't, and will never be, an apartheid state

Yep, BooBad, Michael Scott Bornstein, former IDF paratrooper, member of the Zionist underground and a guy that strongly condemned the United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict report, which determined Israel was guilty of possible war crimes.

You DO know what "Op-Ed" means, I take it? And what would one EXPeCT his viewpoint to be?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 01:29 PM

He does back up his opinion with facts so why don't you discuss those instead of trying to delegitimize him because he's a Jew.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 02:05 PM

...because he's a Jew.

Now, there ya go again with the anti-semitic name calling. Doesn't it ever get boring, BooBad, or at least tiring?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 14 - 02:44 PM

"Why "Whoops", Jim?"
You appear to be making a meal out of a crumb Mike
The "whoops" was for my own error of inadvertently sending a blank message, which seems to have been immediately spotted and removed by a passing forum fairy - nothing more.
All that remains is to choose between the two statements, whether to accept the word of a Zionist extremist and suspected war criminal when he says "wot, us? We didn't do it guv", or a human rights group (including many Jews) who express a widely held opinion that they definitely did - now let me see - eeny, meeny....
Interesting to see that little Boo-Boo is still holding "the Jews" responsible for all the Israeli regime's crimes
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 May 14 - 03:06 PM

Ah -- sorry, Jim. (in fact, "Whoops!"). Misunderstood your Whoops; but am sure you can see why.

Apart from that; take your points, as you know. Though I don't think it's altogether the same sort of 'apartheid' as that from which the term derives, so that the word is perhaps just a bit emotive to match the strict actuality, it is indeed a far from ideal situation for any of the parties, however one may define it.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 04:24 PM

So Greg, still unwilling to discuss the facts with which he supports his opinion - I can understand why.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 04:39 PM

Oh, and by the way, in listing what you consider to be the author's nefarious pro Israel activities you neglected to mention these: Israel's ambassador to the United States from 2009 to 2013, a senior fellow in international diplomacy at the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya and a fellow at the Atlantic Council.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 14 - 05:14 PM

I can understand why.

Why thanks, Boo! You DO realize the futility of my trying to teach a pig to sing!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 20 May 14 - 05:38 PM

Thanks Greg, your posts never fail to make me laugh, honestly, you always give me a good chuckle.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 21 May 14 - 05:01 AM

"It seems that Israel doesn't even want to accept "today's" borders." - Stringsinger

As the Arabs of Palestine rejected the two-state solution offered them by the UN in 1947 and opted for war instead, then the only officially demarcated and recognised borders of Palestine are those established in 1923. Under the terms of the original mandate the Jews could settle anywhere inside those borders, they could not settle anywhere east of the Jordan river.

When the Arabs of Palestine and all their Arab neighbours attacked the newly founded State of Israel in 1948, Egypt attacked, invaded and occupied Palestinian territory in Gaza, they illegally continued to hold this territory until 1967 when Israeli forces drove the Egyptians out and reclaimed Gaza and reunited it with the rest of the original mandated territory of Palestine.

In the same way the Jordanians attacked, invaded and occupied the Palestinian territories now commonly known as the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They too held this territory illegally until 1967 when Israeli forces liberated them from the Jordanian troops occupying them.

Ever asked what borders the Arabs of Palestine are prepared to honour and recognise? Let me see now:

1: Borders were "established" in 1949 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the second time by the Arabs of Palestine

2: Borders were "established" again in 1956 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the third time by the Arabs of Palestine

3: Slightly different borders were "established" in 1967 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the forth time by the Arabs of Palestine

4: Same borders as for 1967 were "established" in 1973 by the UN as part of a ceasefire but the Arabs of Palestine refused to accept or recognise them - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the fifth time by the Arabs of Palestine - Israel starts process of bi-lateral peace talks trading land for peace with Egypt and Jordan

5: Borders proposed in 2000 at Camp David at a summit held involving Clinton, Arafat and Barak. Agreement almost reached - An opportunity for the supposedly desired two-State solution thrown away for the sixth time by the Representative of the Arabs of Palestine

OK then Stringsinger how many more times? How many more opportunities do you want to give the Arabs of Palestine to reject the two-state solution they seem to have conned you into believing that they want?

1947 to 2014 - I make that just over 67 years that both sides have had to sort this out. Over the course of those 67 years the Arabs of Palestine have consistently opted for armed conflict. So be it, the next time it kicks off nobody should step in to stop it until either one side or the other has "won" whatever it is that they think they will "win" - but whatever the case the rest of the world will have done with it.

Fact is that over the course of the last 67 years had all the aid that has been thrown at "The Palestinians" been put to good use Gaza should resemble Monaco in terms of wealth and prosperity - it is a shit hole because the leaders of the Arabs of Palestine chose to fight.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 14 - 08:35 AM

Cast not your pearls Teribus, Stringsinger et al's views are not informed by facts, as is glaringly obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 May 14 - 09:11 AM

It is still worth putting up counter-propaganda.
Someone, somewhere may have their eyes opened.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 14 - 09:28 AM

One can only hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 14 - 08:08 PM

Anti Israel propaganda from the BDS crowd:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhuAh5Yb9f0


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Jun 14 - 10:06 AM

Methodists to Sell Shares as a Protest Over Israel

By Laurie Goodstein June 12, 2014

The pension board of the nation's largest mainline Protestant denomination, the United Methodist Church, has decided to divest its shares in a British company that supplies security equipment to Israel for use in prisons and in the occupied West Bank....

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/13/us/methodists-to-sell-shares-as-a-protest-over-israel.html?ref=us


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 02:41 PM

Presbyterians in key moment on Israel, divestment
Associated Press
By RACHEL ZOLL 14 June 2014

NEW YORK (AP) — The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) appears to be on the brink of handing a major victory to a movement that wants institutions to wield their investment dollars against Israel over its treatment of the Palestinians.

The Presbyterian General Assembly, gathering in Detroit through next week, will consider withdrawing its investments from some companies whose products are used by the Israeli government in the Palestinian territories. Divestment advocates were narrowly outmaneuvered at the last Presbyterian convention in 2012, losing a crucial ballot by just two votes. They enter this year's fight with signs of increasing momentum, within and outside the church. ...

Rest of article:
http://news.yahoo.com/presbyterians-key-moment-israel-divestment-050919917.html


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

Anti-Israeli propaganda - faked by Israeli soldiers, no doubt
Jim Carroll

Antisemitic propaganda, no doubt


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 04:52 PM

That's what anti-Semites would say no doubt.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 05:16 PM

Meanwhile Israel's trade with Muslim countries is flourishing:The badly kept secret of Israel's trade throughout the Muslim world

I guess Egypt missed the BDS train as evidenced by the recent 11 billion dollar gas deal with Israel: Egypt's Lost Power

Buycott companies Jew haters want you to boycott:Buycott


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 05:16 PM

Which anti-Semites, Boo- the Methodists or the Presbyterians?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 05:42 PM

"The hate behind boycotting Israel is no secret. Even the founder of BDS, Omar Barghouti, admits the end goal of the BDS movement is not peace — it's the destruction of the state of Israel as a Jewish state."

Faces Of Hate:The Extremists and Bigots Behind BDS


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 06:37 PM

So the U.S. Methodists and Presbyterians are extremist bigots out to destroy Israel?

You ain't amusing any more, Boo - you're psychotic. Get help.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 08:00 PM

It doesn't take much for some people and groups to buy into lies and propaganda especially when Jews are the target, as evidenced by some posters here.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:25 PM

"Why is Israel being held to standards that the Arab nations are not held to?"

Because Israel is the only nation whose government is still annexing land illegally, which it has been doing continuously since 1967.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:43 PM

During the recent "peace talks", Israel was busy stealing more of the West Bank.

Is it any wonder that the Palestinians who are crammed into two effective prison camps, don't trust the Israeli government?

I certainly wouldn't trust anyone who was patting me on the back while nicking my watch and wallet, no matter what nationality.

And there has to be a limit on how long the Nazi atrocities can be used as an excuse for incarcerating a nation.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 09:49 PM

"During the recent "peace talks", Israel was busy stealing more of the West Bank."

There are no illegal settlements - unless of course one assumes that Jews should not own property or build in those areas because they are Jews. Every current Jewish "settlement" is on land owned by Jews before 1948 or purchased after 1967. Settlements that tried to set up on land that was not Jewish owned have been dismantled. We continue to hear the term "illegal", but "legal and illegal" has to be more that political desires and interests. It has to refer to law. And, frankly, law established during the illegal Jordanian occupation of the area in which jewish property was confiscated and retitied, and current PA regulations that ban sales or ownership of property by Jews is not valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jun 14 - 11:15 PM

It doesn't take much for some people and groups to buy into lies and propaganda

As evidenced primarily by yourself, Boo. Get help.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:23 AM

"There are no illegal settlements "
There are two groups of people in the Middle East - the Arabs and the Israelis.
Both have been there for millenia and both have a claim (by birthright) to live there.
One has, from the inception of the state of Israel, steadily drive the other out by force of arms.
Some facts and figures:
The total number of displaced Palestinians worldwide is 7.1 million, including:
6.6 million refugees, and 427,000 internally displaced persons (IDPs)
67 percent of all Palestinians worldwide are refugees or IDPs
4,766,670 refugees registered with the UNRWA
UNRWA definition of Palestinian refugees: "People whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict." refugees in the Middle East who have no right to a place in their historical homeland.
That is the situation human beings should be addressing, not scraps of paper - anything else is militarism and politics.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 03:37 AM

The one who keeps trying to drive the other out is the Arab.

More Jews were displaced than Arabs.
They just were the ones allowed to settle by their own people.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

No -- you 'get help', GregF....

....to learn how to stop being such a dogmatic repetitive bore, and put a proper argument together for once.

Never known such an assertive "that's-what-I-think-so-that's-all-that-needs-to-be-said" merchant!


~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 05:08 AM

"People whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict."
.,,.
How many times have we been thru all this before?

Who started that conflict in 1948, then, after the Israelis had agreed to the UN Partition Plan?

Who displaced all those Palestinian Arabs by telling them to move out of the way just while they polished off the Israelis, and then they could come back?

Who then lost the conflict, for all their bravado & superior numbers, leaving all their Palestinian oppos stranded in their own countries [where so many of them, all these years later, are still in refugee camps!]?

So what should the Israelis have done -- said to them all "Sorry we beat all those thousands who were trying so hard to help you by wiping us all out, but come on back home just the same; and maybe you can have another go in a year or two"?

Oh, come on!

It's a pity the Israelis have now blown it with their aggressive bullying. But it won't help make them change these ways by going on with this selective-memory account of how their state first emerged, and how much help for it they got from their friendly helpful neighbours, will it?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:00 AM

"Who started that conflict in 1948, then, after the Israelis had agreed to the UN Partition Plan?"
How many times do we have to go through this
A plan that was foisted on both sides and satisfactory to neither was foisted on the legitimate occupants of Palestine by a Britain anxious to rid itself of a problem of history - as with Ireland, the result was permanent warfare.
Whatever the politicians of all sides did in 1948 - the end result was as the figures described.
Continuing military expansionist aggression aimed at creating a mono-cultural state is adding to those numbers daily.
To suggest that those people have no right to their former homeland is equivalent to claiming that those who were defeated in any war you care to mention had no right to return to theirs.
When will you people get it into your heads that this is about the suffering of impoverished human beings and not about 70 year old bits of paper drawn up by politicians - or is might always right?
"Come on" indeed.
Can I recommend another film 'When I Saw You" - set in one of the Palestinian refugees camps?
It depicts the conditions of refugees forced into tent towns in the desert, some having existed there for over twenty years, by Israeli military aggression
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

The ones in the camps in Lebanon & Syria weren't forced there by Israel 20 years ago, but by their Arab mates 'rescuing' them 66 years ago. It's a bloody crying disgrace to every Arab state in the Middle East that the great-grandchildren of those Palestinians told to move out temporarily, no more than a month or two, to make way for the conquering Arab hordes who were going to drive Israel into the sea, wipe the Jews off the face of the earth, & all the rest of their grand rhetoric, are still in camps. And the countries they were forced out to still haven't done anything to try to absorb them -- which they could have done 100 times over if they knew their arses from their elbows & knew anything about anything except making a lot of fierce noise & killing one another. Just look what's going on in Syria.

And they have votes in the UN General Assembly along with all the other stupid bloody pathetic tinpots who keep on passing their ɷ·hole 'resolutions'


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 08:18 AM

History and military might Mike - nothing more
The cause of the original problem is shared by all sides; the responsibility for the present crisis should reflect that fact.
The alternative is to leave the victims were they are and continue adding to them, as is happening at the present time.
Israel is about as good at peace talks as you are with humanity - not very
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM

to learn how to stop being such a dogmatic repetitive bore,

Now THAT'S amusing, Boo - coming from a one trick pony such as yiourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM

Correction: That should read "M and Boo" and "yourselves"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM

Poor Greg, I'm sure he doesn't grasp the irony of his previous posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:20 AM

Israel has become a huge militocracy, a chief exporter of weapons systems, a repressive regime to Palestinians who are second class citizens in that country. The idea that they
offer any olive branch at all is entirely risible. BDS represents a non-violent approach to the problem.

The ridiculous notion that israel has given Gaza money and aid is belied by the current situation which is that only if Palestinians give up any hope for a two-state solution and succumb to the dictatorship of the Israeli government, then the Israeli government can declare a bogus "peace". It's been unfortunate that the Palestinian reaction has been to
throw rocks and meager rockets at an army of tanks, phosphorous bombs, bulldozers, weapons of mass destruction and an oppressive military operation, since the only solution, which is one offered by BDS which makes it credible in the world is a non-violent one in addition to the various international aid ships attempting to reach Gaza with needed medical supplies.

BDS is about actually helping Israel to survive rather than become a pariah to the international community. But hard-liners of the militocracy seem unable to grasp this fact.

In short, Israel is shooting itself in the foot.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

Previously it was a theocracy now it's a militocracy. It is in fact a democracy - the only one in a neighbourhood of theocracies and militocracies. More inane buzzwords from comrade Stringsinger.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 01:34 PM

Previously it was a theocracy now it's a militocracy.

No conflict there - its BOTH.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 02:36 PM

And they're both lies but that doesn't stop the haters from repeating them.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour.
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 09:17 PM

Come off it Bobad.

Any country which needs to insist that every citizen serve in the armed forces and retain arms at home, is a militocracy by definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Jun 14 - 10:35 PM

Like Switzerland, Troub? Or have they 'seen the light'?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 08:43 AM

Militocracy by definition eh Troub - I guess you don't know the definition of militocracy.

By your erroneous definition these countries would be militocracies:

    Armenia
    Austria
    Belarus
    Azerbaijan
    Bermuda
    Brazil
    Myanmar (Burma)
    Cyprus
    Denmark
    Egypt
    Finland
    Greece   
    Iran
    Israel
    North Korea
    South Korea
    Mexico
    Norway
    Russia
    Singapore
    Switzerland
    Taiwan (ROC)
    Thailand
    Turkey
    Ukraine

I would say that your attempt to demonize the only democracy in the Middle East has failed - you'll have to keep digging


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 09:07 AM

To Simon Shaw/Troubadour/Greg F & Stringsinger -

A Question: "Why after NINE Years under a Palestinian Government of their own choosing are there EIGHT Refugee Camps in GAZA?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:01 AM

You talkin' about the Occupied Territories there, T-bird?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:10 AM

As far as I am aware the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and the Palestinians there decided to elect Hamas as their local rulers as opposed to Al-Fatah the party of choice for those Palestinians living on the West Bank.

So can you tell me why after NINE years of Palestinian self-government in GAZA there are EIGHT Palestinian Refugee Camps on Palestinian soil?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:37 AM

Hint, T-Bird: Were have thousands of Palestinians 1. been displaced from & 2. been denied basic civil rights??


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM

>A Question: "Why after NINE Years under a Palestinian Government of their own choosing are there EIGHT Refugee Camps in GAZA?

The answer is self-explanatory. The Palestinian Government is not allowed to exist by Israel.
Somehow the implication that there are refugee camps in Gaza is that Israel has done
something constructive for Palestinians which is a false premise.

The problem lies much deeper having to do with the religious ideologies of both Judaism and
Islam. At present, they are mortal enemies and this influences their foreign policies.

Israel is not a democracy but a theocracy. Unfortunately, the same can be said for a majority of Islamic dominated societies that insist on Sharia law. The US is struggling to remain a secular society by those who are attempting to Christianize it.

The answer is to get religion out of the public sphere.

Religion=militocracy as each belief system attempts to weaponize in its fight for it own ideology.

Today, antisemitism must include all the mid-east tribes including Islam for the epithet to make any reasonable sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:58 AM

"Israel is not a democracy but a theocracy."

More lies to delegitimize and demonize the only democracy in the Middle East.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jun 14 - 10:59 AM

Israel is not a theocracy and never has been. Members of some religious parties have served as members of some of its coalition governments, but they have never formed any sort of majority. The government has always been secular in its legislations. In what sense do you consider it any sort of "theocracy", in the way that several Islamic states are, where it is imams (members of the priesthood) who form the government? I don't think you know quite what a theocracy is.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 02:24 AM

OK I will ask the question that you both have "ducked" yet again:

"Tell me why after NINE years of Palestinian self-government in GAZA there are EIGHT Palestinian Refugee Camps in GAZA on Palestinian soil?"


Greg F's evasion - "Hint, T-Bird: Were have thousands of Palestinians 1. been displaced from & 2. been denied basic civil rights??"

Greg old son in the war of 1948, the war that the Arabs of Palestine chose to fight instead of accepting the Two State Solution on offer not only thousands of Arabs were displaced, Jewish communities were forced to flee and were displaced too. After the 1967 "Six-Day War" over 820,000 Jews were forcibly dispossessed of their property and forcibly deported from Arab countries - But, guess what Greg F? There have never been refugee camps set up inside Israel - all who fled were assimilated into the community at large. A community that respects and guarantees basic civil and human rights under a secular government and a common law.

Wasn't the same in the areas taken by force by the Egyptians (GAZA) or by the Jordanians (West Bank & East Jerusalem), both of whom stole Palestinian Territory and imprisoned the Palestinians inside refugee camps set up on Palestinian land, where they were denied any basic civil rights, not being allowed to integrate and not being allowed to work - you see they had to "maintained" as political pawns in abject poverty so that the begging bowl could be shoved forward to "help" the "poor refugees" - those poor refugees however saw little or none of the aid given though did they? Check Tosser Arafat's bank balances.

Civil rights in Gaza under Hamas? I think there were quite a few supporters of the rival political faction Al-Fatah taken prisoner by Hamas in Gaza received free flying lessons from the top of a high-rise buildings that was the Hamas contribution to Arab civil rights in area under their control.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 03:52 AM

Further to Teribus' post above. It wasn't in fact "the Arabs of Palestine", even insofar as they constituted any identifiable single entuty, who rejected the two-state UN proposal of 1948. Left to themselves they might well have accepted it. But it was their ethnic "brothers" in all the surrounding states -- Saudi, Lebanon, Transjordan, Egypt, Yemen, Iran, Iraq - who forbade them to do so, ordering them to leave their homes 'temporarily' while they marched in and destroyed the new-found State of Israel. As it turned out, they weren't quite such efficient "Drivers of the Jews into the Sea" as they had anticipated. With results still being felt, as we all know.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 06:48 AM

Stringsinger if you cannot answer the questions put to you why not just say so.

My Question to Stringsinger: "Why after NINE Years under a Palestinian Government of their own choosing are there EIGHT Refugee Camps in GAZA?

Stringsingers "self-explanatory Answer: The Palestinian Government is not allowed to exist by Israel.

Really??

1947 - The UN proposed a Two State Solution to resolve what they though of as irreconcilable differences. The Jews of Palestine accepted that proposal, the Arabs of Palestine (Encouraged by their Arab neighbours) refused.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number One thrown away by the Arabs.

1949 - The UN brokered a ceasefire that was accepted by Israel, who did comply with its stipulations. Egypt and Jordan stole large chunks of land now surprisingly claimed by the Arabs of Palestine with no Arab nation acknowledging the right of the State of Israel to exist. Why? Because despite signing the ceasefire their intent was still geared to driving the Jews of Palestine into the sea.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Two thrown away by the Arabs

1956 - Another UN Brokered ceasefire that the Arabs of Palestine and their Arab neighbours were forced through military defeat to sign. Once again no intention whatsoever of complying with it on the part of the Arabs. Once again the Israelis comply fully. Egypt and Jordan get to hold onto Palestinian land that they had stolen in 1948 and on that Palestinian land they imprison Palestinian Arabs in refugee camps.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Three thrown away by the Arabs

1967 - Another war provoked by Israel's Arab neighbours resulting in a crushing defeat for the pan-Arabist forces led by Egypt. Israel recaptures and liberates the former Palestinian lands stolen by Egypt and Jordan in 1948. Parts of Lebanon and Syria are taken and held in order to improve Israels defences and make her more secure from attack. Read the three NOs declared by the Arabs in the Khartoum Declaration of November 1967 and then tell me if any Arab State or entity intended ever complying with the UN brokered ceasefire following the "Six Day War".

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Four thrown away by the Arabs



1973 - Arabs attack Israel in what became known as the "Yom Kippur War" Once again the Egyptians and Syrians suffer a humiliating defeat of epic proportions, the Jordanians and the Lebanese this time have the good sense to keep out of it. At the end of this war it starts to dawn on the Egyptians and the Syrians that they are never, ever going to defeat the IDF.

Now under those circumstances who was it that refused to allow a separate Palestinian State to exist? - The Arabs

Opportunity Number Five thrown away by the Arabs

1970 - Tosser Arafat's unsuccessful attempt to steal and take over the Kingdom of Jordan with his Palestinian refugees.

1979 - Egypt - Israel Peace Treaty - Land for Peace - A treaty that has held and lived up to by both sides. Palestinians now basically cut loose by Egypt.

1987 - Start of the First Intifada {1987 to 1991} - Again the Arabs elect to fight rater than negotiate.

Opportunity Number Six thrown away by the Arabs

1988 - Jordan relinquishes its claims to the West bank and East Jerusalem and strips West Bank Palestinians of Jordanian citizenship. Palestinians now basically cut loose by Jordan.

1993 - Oslo Accords agreement on many things reached by Arafat could not deliver on recognition of the State of Israel

Opportunity Number Seven thrown away by the Arabs

1994 - Jordan - Israel Peace Treaty - A treaty that has held and lived up to by both sides.

2000 - Camp David Summit - Again agreement almost reached but Tosser Arafat snatches defeat from the Jaws of Victory:

"I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace." - Bill Clinton, President of the United States of America

Opportunity Number Eight thrown away by the Arabs

OK Stringsinger how many more examples do you want? How many more opportunities will be thrown away by the Arabs?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:27 AM

Greg old son in the war of 1948...

And here I thought we were discussing the current situation, T-Bird, not events of 66 years ago. Talk about "evasion".


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 09:39 AM

Address the questions asked and the points put forward.

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of the State of Israel are fully fully protected and guaranteed by the secular state of Israel.

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of Hamas in side GAZA are basically stuffed.

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank are basically stuffed.

Same goes for the Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 10:22 AM

The whys and the facts are irrelevant to those driven by hate.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM

The civil and human rights of all those irrespective of race, creed and colour, currently living under the laws and governance of the State of Israel are fully fully protected and guaranteed by the secular state of Israel.


Uh-Huh. T-Bird & Boo, you need to explore the difference between what laws may be on the books, and how these laws are - or are not - applied.

A study of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Ammendments to the U.S. Constitution and the period 1875 to the present would be an instructive parallel example.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 05:21 PM

The US aid to Israel and the sale of US weapons to Israel HAS to stop COMPLETELY!

If the US stops forcing Israel to buy its weapons, then Israel will be able to use it's own ingenuously manufactured weapons, which will give Israel's economy a MASSIVE boost. Israel's "alliance" with the US is detrimental and crippling to Israel on all fronts, especially the economic front.

A brilliant piece by Canadian journalist Lawrence Solomon on the subject: Israel's growth industry


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:00 PM

As we all know, minnow, you're barking mad.

I note that Mr Obama is getting apoplectic about the capture of a single Israeli soldier (apparently forgetting the thousands of Palestinians, including hundreds of women and children, held without charge in Israeli jails - great democracy, huh?). Pity he can't get quite so apoplectic about the slaughter of hundreds of children in Gaza. I note how nasty he can be about the Russians, who might, indirectly, have been somewhat responsible for about 300 deaths in that aircraft rocketing. Yet he can't get all nasty about them Israelis, who have killed five times as many as were killed in that aeroplane. Forgive me for concluding that Mr Obama dare not even raise the slightest finger of criticism against Israel, as, if he did, he and his party would be toast at the next election, thanks to AIPAC and their fellow-travellers. In the Great Democracy, the Land Of The Free, one of the most undemocratic organisations one could possibly imagine holds all the reins of power. Brief against Israel? Sure, go ahead, but, if you do, you're toast. My belief is that most yanks even on internet forums dare not even breathe AIPAC's name. I'm certainly not expecting it here. Hands up for democracy, anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 03:55 AM

"Address the questions asked and the points put forward."
Probably not the answer you want, but you can't please all the right-wing nutcases all of the time
THE INEQUALITY REPORT

ISRAEL'S APARTHEID STATE

SETTLEMENTS

BEDOUINS

WALLS

As I said, not the answers you were looking for - better luck next time!
"As we all know, minnow, you're barking mad."
Encourage Israel to develop its arms indistry - barking mad just about sums it up -

CUSTOMER FOR ISRAELI ARMS


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:57 PM

Israel, by its attacks on Gaza, has created hundreds, if not thousands, of terrorists. Not my words but those of Paddy Pantsdown. Jesus, at last a politician of any colour who has the temerity to call Israel's actions disproportionate, indiscriminate and foolish. Paddy's always been a bit of a twat but kudos to the man for this. I suppose he doesn't have to worry about any Israel lobby breathing down his neck these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:13 PM

The Israeli economy is booming, as can be seen from the comments of a very wide variety of sources and experts (which John Kerry and many others should read and recognize):

• "Technology companies and global investors are beating a path to Israel and finding unique combinations of audacity, creativity, and drive everywhere they look. Which may explain why, in addition to boasting the highest density of start-ups in the world (a total of more than 3,850 start-ups one for every 1,844 Israelis) more Israeli companies are listed on the NASDAQ exchange than all companies from the entire European continent." – Dan Senor and Saul Singer

• "Israel, the land of milk and honey, is now also the home of business success, opportunity and major growth." – Hedge Fund Billionaire Henry Swieca

• "If you're going to the Middle East to look for oil, you can skip Israel. However, if you're looking for brains, look no further. [Israel] has a disproportionate amount of brains and energy." – Warren Buffet

• "[Israel is] the most important high-tech center in the world after the US." – Eric Schmidt

• "Tel Aviv has been named the second best place in the world in which to launch a high-tech startup company." – Viva Sarah Press

• "Israel has an enormous cash reserve of some $80 billion." – Hezi Sternlicht

• "Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most highly developed and industrialized sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world." – InvestInIsrael.gov

• "So why Tel Aviv? The city is overflowing with software developers and venture capital. Larger companies, including Google, have set up offices there. Facebook is now there, too, after acquiring facial-recognition developer Face.com in June." – Bloomberg.com

• "The Israeli startup scene needs little introduction. Tel Aviv is rapidly becoming one of the most innovative tech hubs on the planet, vying with London, New York and Berlin as Silicon Valley's second." – Monty Munford

• "Israel has a highly educated entrepreneurial community (40% with Masters/PhD vs. 42% in Silicon Valley)." – Zack Miller

• "From VC funds to conglomerates, foreign government partners to a smart international workforce, Israel has it all." – Ron Hershco, Brooklyn & Israel financier

• "Swiss research institute IMD releases World Competitiveness Yearbook, ranks Bank of Israel first among world's central banks." — Olga Viniar

• "It should be noted that Israel's ranking first in terms of the market's durability in the face of crises is the direct result of the Treasury and the Bank of Israel's actions, which withstood the pressures and did not pump funds into failing organizations and financial systems as the US and Europe did." – Uriel Linn

• "Israel is good at creating international cooperation for funding in the R&D programs they establish. And they provide a great ROI when done correctly." – Ann Liebschutz

• "Israel has one of the world's fastest growing developed economies." – Moital.gov.il

• "Israel's output growth remains relatively strong, unemployment is at historically low levels, its high-tech sector continues to attract international admiration, and new off-shore gas fields have come on stream." – 2013 Israel Economic Survey

• "We find ourselves in an age when both data is bursting forth via the Internet, and the economy continues to become more globalized than ever. For us it is a challenge, but even more, it is an opportunity." – Benjamin Netanyahu

• "Steve Ballmer [Microsoft's CEO] calls Microsoft as much an Israeli company as an American company, because of the importance of its Israeli technologies. Google, Cisco, Intel, Microsoft, eBay…live and die by the work of [their] Israeli teams…. Israel, a tiny nation of immigrants torn by war, has managed to become the first technology nation…." – Wall Street Journal

No matter what detractors of the Jewish people there have been throughout history, the Jewish people have survived. The economy of Israel will continue to thrive and grow – and when there is a will, there is a way. Indeed, as my mother used to say: "This too shall pass."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 08:03 PM

Naturally, minnow, as an antisemite yourself you are confusing criticism of "Jewish people" (which you will not hear on this forum) with criticism of the actions of the Israeli regime (which, I'm proud to say, you will hear quite a lot of). If you can't see the difference, which patently you can't, then you are beyond help (which we know anyway). As an aside to your litany apropos of how well Israel is doing (and good luck to Israel for that), bear in mind (if you have a mind: you have this tendency to quote an awful lot of other people's minds, I find...) that Israel's healthy condition is largely predicated on favourable trade deals with the US and the EU, not to speak of having to spend very little on their military, as the US pays for that (about three billion per annum at last count). Not bad for a desert nation of about eight million. I hope you won't mind the inconvenience of having this stark reality thrust into your unseeing face, minnow. I fully expect any response (don't rush - I'm not bothered) to both ignore what I've said and to include extensive and unattributed quotes from God knows where you get your lies from. Nighty night. Don't let the truth bite.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 08:31 PM

Indeed, as my mother used to say: "This too shall pass."

If only I could believe that about YOU, Boo.

As my grandmother would have said, were she here today to witness your antics: "What a putz!"


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 08:58 PM

Just since 2001, Israel's GDP has grown 1,000 percent and its economy is now larger than Egypt's economy despite the fact that Egypt has 10 times Israel's population.

At the same time, the Palestinian Authority and Hamas have received billions of dollars in foreign aid and support. But instead of joining in Israel's modern economic boom and encouraging partnerships, the political leaders have clearly invested in rocket launchers and terror tunnels instead.

In other words, as Israel's economic success grows and the economic opportunities for Arabs in Israel grows, so, too, does the violent strategy of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad.

And as long as politics trumps economics in the Middle East, there will never be peace.

Israel's economy is soaring—why isn't it bringing peace?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:14 PM

blow-bad


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 12:58 AM

Hey Steve Shaw seems you like boycotts, I noticed you've been boycotting the Israel/Palestine thread the 5pm hour yesterday. Hope the door didn't hit you in the ass on the way out. Less than 3 hours you're having truck on this boycott thread with the same people you want to ignore. You don't do boycott very well, it seems.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 03:33 AM

"Israel's economy is soaring—why isn't it bringing peace?"
Does it not strike you that trying to sell nuclear weapons to an aggressively fascist nation might have a teensy-weensy bit to do with this?
Recently I put up a link to Israel's 'Drone' industry and how they were complaining it wasn't growing fast enough.
The great contribution to modern society, the Uzi is one of theirs.
They have once again used chemical weapons in the form of white phosphorus in Gaza and have used chemical sprays to evict farmers from their lands - doesn't auger particularly well for a future ban on chemical weapons.
"Israel, by its attacks on Gaza, has created hundreds, if not thousands, of terrorists. "
For terrorists, read "opposition to Israel's terrorism".
What are you on Booboo?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 04:09 AM

You also told us they had used flechette weapons Jim, but no such things have been found.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 05:55 AM

"You also told us they had used flechette weapons Jim, but no such things have been found"
Found, photographed and produced here
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:00 AM

ONE MORE TIME
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:18 AM

Not convincing.
No such have been produced from over a thousand casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:20 AM

Also no phosphorous burns.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:06 AM

But with the Jews coming to build up and improve the land, hundreds of thousands more Arabs poured in to get the jobs and opportunities with the Jews that they could not get elsewhere in the Arab world.

And, according to all the economic lessons we have learned about jobs and harmony, there was peace.

For more than 40 years the Arabs and Jews worked together peacefully to drain malarial swamps, remove salt from the soil and plant millions of trees. The result was mandatory Palestine was able to absorb the massive increase in Arab and Jewish population that came into the area to join in the effort.

In the 1920's a larger industrial boom began to mirror the agricultural progress and the economic prosperity really started to become apparent.

So, naturally one would think that the peaceful co-operation between Arabs and Jews increased — or at least continued — as well.

But the opposite happened.

Just as mandatory Palestine began a 400-percent increase in businesses creation, a 1,000-percent increase in the number of jobs and 10,000-percent increase in capital investment, the peaceful co-existence between Jews and Arabs was shattered. After an anti-Jewish riot in Hebron in 1923, bloodshed became more and more common. And even though the economic progress and opportunity never ceased, peace has never really returned since.

Ibid


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM

"No such have been produced from over a thousand casualties"
Piss off Keith - photographic evidence.
The United Nations has been asked by its own observers to consider considered whether the use the Israelis has put these god-awful weapons to in Gaza breaches International Law
You really have gone round the rabid bend.
"Also no phosphorous burns."
ILLEGAL WEAPONS
What's the going rate for being an accomplice to murder and atrocities?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:15 AM

No flechette casualties, no phosphorous casualties, and "nail shrapnel" could only come from Hamas rockets.
Try not to be so gullible Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:38 PM

Hey Steve Shaw seems you like boycotts, I noticed you've been boycotting the Israel/Palestine thread the 5pm hour yesterday. Hope the door didn't hit you in the ass on the way out. Less than 3 hours you're having truck on this boycott thread with the same people you want to ignore. You don't do boycott very well, it seems.

Piss off, wanker-stalker. I'll post when I want and where I want. Get over it, and, either contribute to the conversation or just bugger off.

But instead of joining in Israel's modern economic boom and encouraging partnerships, the political leaders have clearly invested in rocket launchers and terror tunnels instead.

Well you see, minnow, Israel also invests in weaponry big-time, in case you haven't noticed. Maybe you think that it's OK for rich countries with big armies to invest in weaponry but not for piss-poor nations under siege. I love your double standard. But, unlike Hamas, the Israeli regime doesn't have to make any big decisions about how to use their dough. It's all provided by you, the yanks, no questions asked, even when they're slaughtering kids with gay abandon. Three billion spondoolies per annum at last count, for a tiny desert state, all for weapons. Not bad, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:28 PM

imagine

more

ah yes

and...

this

Ok... y'all go back to your bickering now...


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 04:23 AM

"No flechette casualties, no phosphorous casualties, and "nail shrapnel" could only come from Hamas rockets.
Try not to be so gullible Jim."
You have the statements from the observers - you have the evidence - you even have the photographs
You are cleraly ****** insane - thank you for representing the Israeli regime so well
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:14 AM

We have a photo. of some flechettes in someone's hand and some stuck into a wall.
No casualties by flechette or phosphorous.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 03:15 PM

Wonder why I get echoes of "Israel calling - Israel calling" every time you post.
The report of their use has been carried widely, except in the U.S, apparently
However. Israel has not offered your excuse, nor have they denied their use.
You are now propagandizing on their behalf to save them the trouble
You are a rabid moron
Jim Carroll

4:59        Randy Talbot E-mail Print
The London Guardian reported Sunday that "The Israeli military is using flechette shells, which spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal metal darts, in its military operation in Gaza."[1] -- B'Tselem, the Israeli human rights organization, says that although these weapons are not banned per se, "other rules of humanitarian law render their use in the Gaza Strip illegal. -- One of the most fundamental principles is the obligation to distinguish between those who are involved and those who are not involved in the fighting, and to avoid to the extent possible injury to those who are not involved. -- Deriving from this principle is the prohibition of the use of an imprecise weapon which is likely to result in civilian injuries." -- The London Independent also wrote about Israel's use of flechettes.[2] -- So did the Belfast Telegraph, which also posted a graphic RT video showing wounded Palestinians and interviewing Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor, who called Israeli attacks "immensely disproportionate."[3] -- A Google News search shows that discussion of their use also appeared in articles published in Israel, New Zealand, Canada, China, France, Lebanon, Iran, and Russia. -- We have only been able to locate one article published in U.S. media about the use of flechettes, published by Newsweek, where their use is presented as merely an unproven allegation.[4] ..


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 03:26 PM

Jim, Russia Today is not a reliable source.
They will have easy access to handfulls of flechettes.

And, here is the header for that Guardian piece.
"Israel using flechette shells in Gaza
Palestinian human rights group accuses Israel military of using shells that spray out thousands of tiny and potentially lethal darts"

I am sure the other papers reported the same source, which 2 weeks later has not been substantiated by anyone else.

If it is true, no real evidence for it has yet emerged.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: skarpi
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:14 PM

Is Adolf Hitler back ?? it seems that he lives in Israel ....

:(


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: bobad
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 07:42 PM

Sad.....very sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 08:40 PM

Is Adolf Hitler back ?? it seems that he lives in Israel ....

Sad but True, Boo - the abused have become the abusers.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 04 Aug 14 - 09:05 PM

Hi Skarpi! I don't know if you noticed that I quoted Peter Ustinov somewhere above: "The Jews were the first victims of the Nazis; Palestinians the second...."


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 04:14 AM

"Russia Today is not a reliable source."
The report came directly from the Guardian and was reproduced exactly as reported - that report if freely available for access.
GUARDIAN
"which 2 weeks later has not been substantiated by anyone else."
Nor has it been denied by Isreal - you alone, having first claimed that there is nothing wrong with using this obscene weapon on civilians,and have moved on to denying its use
You are defending it without them having done so
"ISRAEL CALLING - ISRAEL CALLING"
Brings back wartime memories brrrr!!
There is no reason whatever to believe that Israel is not using such weapons - they have used them before along with other obscenities
VERMONT
That's what terrorist states do - and that's what terrorist defenders like you support.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:03 AM

"Jim, Russia Today is not a reliable source.
They will have easy access to handfulls of flechettes."

Haven't you realised yet Jim, that K A of H is the only person in the world whose sources are reliable.

If you made the above comment about one of his, you would immediately be accused of attacking the source rather than the substance.

It's the way he is able to twist all arguments to his own xenophobic messages.

For him, a level playing field is a forty five degree slope, with him at the higher end!


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 06:59 AM

Jim, the Guardian just reported that "Palestinian human rights group accuses Israel military of using...."

It has not been picked up since.
You know how thoroughly reported the hospital casualties are, but no-one has been found with flechette injuries.

It has all the hallmarks of a propaganda story.
You always believe all that shit without question but most of us wait for the truth to come out.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:02 AM

Peter ,
the abused have become the abusers.
the Nazi Germany killed and abused alot of Jews on WW2 we all know that
but , what are the Jews doing know ? ..killing soldiers is one thing
but killing small children ,


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:03 AM

it should " now " not know ...


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 07:19 AM

It's always helpful, and more accurate, to refer to the Israeli regime rather than "Jews" carrying out these atrocities. There is a very good ad published in today's Guardian from Jews For Justice For Palestinians. The broad brush is not appropriate. Many Jewish people are revolted by the actions of the Israeli regime. And I wasn't aware in any case that Israel is acting in the name of religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:09 AM

"It has not been picked up since."
Doesn't matter a toss - they've used them before, they have used them again - why shouldn't they.
You have given your blessing of their use
What more evidence can we need?
You are an arse-licking moron who doesn't even wait for the arse you are licking to fart before claiming it doesn't smell.
I suppose you know Lady Varsi has resigned from the Government in protest to the British Government's arse-licking approach to Gaza?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 08:15 AM

"Hamas has been caught using schools as military sites"
Doesn't matter a toss - they've used them before, they have used them again - why shouldn't they.
You have given your blessing of their use
What more evidence can we need?



Right, Jimmy boy?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:46 AM

I wasn't aware in any case that Israel is acting in the name of religion.

Well, I dunno about that- don't they claim that God gave them the land & they occupy it by God's will?

Gott Mit Uns, ja?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 09:56 AM

THE ISRAELI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP B'TSELEM HAS RECORDED NUMEROUS OCCASIONS WHEN THE ISRAELI ARMY HAS FIRED FLECHETTE SHELLS, BOTH IN LEBANON AND GAZA. THE SHELL RELEASES THOUSANDS OF TINY METAL DARTS THAT CAUSE HORRIBLE INJURIES TO ANYONE OUT IN THE OPEN.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:02 AM

Supporting link?


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:13 AM

Above Brucie the Bru-ser - it's a repeat of what I've already put up - get somebody to read it for you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:22 AM

In other ( honest) words, YOU do not have a supporting link.


Thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:48 AM

Oh dear - nobody home to read it for you?
One more time
VERMONT
I neither expect a response to the facts contained in the article nor a retraction from you
As for lying - as I said - you8 have described the Palestinian people as less than human - you have advocated that they be driven into the desert where they can be cared for by their own kind, you have openly and enthusiastically supported the ethnic cleansing of the Bedouins, their being driven from their traditional homes, the use of chemicals and high powered water-cannons to force them to vacate their lands and the Prawar plan to force them to resettle on a poison filled site.
Calling me a liar is fairly insignificant from someone who makes David Irving look like a rabbi
Feel free to continue.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: BDS of Israel 'Gathering Weight.'
From: Musket
Date: 05 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

The government minister responsible for faith affairs has resigned from government here in The UK, in protest over the luke warm condemnation of Israeli aggression.

Baroness Warsi said she was sickened and could not support David Cameron's government as they appear partisan and tacitly accepting Israeli aggression of innocent civilians.

Looks like it isn't just Keith's "lefty liberals" who don't like murder, oppression and ac