BBC Folk Awards 2014

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 01:19 PM

Well, of course Roger Bannister did the four minute mile - no one can surpass that can they.

As for 5 string banjo players - have you not seen or heard Dan Walsh?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 02:30 PM

I have.
I cannot see that he has anything to offer that roscoe holcomb clarence ashley, earl scruggs,ralph stanley, tom paley,sara grey are you seriously trying to tell me that his playing surpasses the afore mentioned, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jmsQxfOsgclarence ashleyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwlOO8RG-oghers tom paley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGPervSVSys if you think walsh surpasses these you are clearly unmusical

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 02:38 PM

then there is folk blues, please show me some young player who is technically better than blind blake. YOU INSISTT ON BEING SILLY and you bring roger bannister in to this, you clearly miss the point of music it is not a competition like sport.MUSIC IS NOT ABOUT COMPETITION.MUSIC IS NOT ABOUT TIN PAN ALLY STUPID FUCKING FOLK AWARDS

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 03:34 PM

It's you and Al who are making it into a competition = all I am doing is trying to get you look at some of the emerging superb talent bthat is out there.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:26 PM

no, it was not i that said that todays musicians are better than previous generations, i said there is no evidence to say they are any better or any worse than previous generations of musicians, and no one including you has yet provided evidence that they are.
I do not need you to tell me about young emerging musicians, i can find them easily on you tube, and make up my own mind as to exactly how good they are.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: RTim
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:14 PM

This thread will probably run until the 2015 BBC Folk Awards and everyone will be either right and wrong with their views!! Who really cares.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:30 PM

Oops, the last three "Guest" comments were from me. I had to reset my cookies for some reason.

It would probably not be too difficult to show that many more young people are playing traditional music in certain parts of the UK than they were forty or fifty years. In Scotland, especially.

More of them have received some form of tuition whether it be on formal courses or having been mentored by more experienced musicians. While there have always been teachers, it used to be much more common to be self taught as far as most "folkie music" was concerned. Less so on the fiddle and accordion or piping circles, I agree.

I can see for myself that there are a lot of musicians out there who have reached a very high standard. Whether they are as good, better, ground breaking or as innovative as previous generations is another matter.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:49 PM

One thing that may be objectively true, is that there are now so many more highly competent young musicians and singers;
that the bar has been raised for rising adolescent stars to even acheive a reasonable level of mediocrity.

- compared to the 1960s and 70s.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:49 PM

there was a bloke who had both parents who played the trumpet. he had a better trumpet than Louis Armstrong, and he didn't have to play the same old rubbish that Louis Armstrong played - so of course he was bound to be better than Louis Armstrong.

GSS - you amaze me that you can't follow the simplistic logic of a total dickhead.

We are wasting our time.

I bet you never heard the one bout the saxophonist who was born after Charlie Parker ......

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 07:47 PM

Terrified Tim has got my vote again. Now just calm down, dears! You fellas must lead a really miserable life with so much hate and negativism in you souls!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 03:01 AM

'One thing that may be objectively true, is that there are now so many more highly competent young musicians and singers;
that the bar has been raised for rising adolescent stars to even acheive a reasonable level of mediocrity.'

Whilst this is true, there's a hell of a lot more to being a good entertainer than being a highly competent performer, and some of the youngsters still need to learn that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 03:58 AM

Youngsters have *always*
had to learn that!

However, it's only rcently that theyy have been under such intense scrutinisation from assorted arm chair and computer screen critics.

;-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:23 AM

I've finally got around to watching this on the Red Button. I'd been looking forward to it, but it was so brutally edited that I'll now have to go and listen to the radio version, if it's still on. The camerawork even managed to miss the leapfrog at the climax of the morris dance.

I thought Mark Radcliffe was truly rubbish as MC, he should leave the jokes to Mike Harding.

With the exception of The Full English, and Martin Simpson & Richard Hawley, I was fairly underwhelmed by most of the live performances - even Bellowhead seemed a bit subdued. In particular I found Anaïs Mitchell and Jefferson Hamer's version of "Willie of Winsbury" simply tedious. And what are Jarvis Cocker's credentials for presenting the lifetime achievement award to Martin Carthy? Nice to see Ciaran Algar and Greg Russell win the Horizon Award - when he was even younger than he is now Ciaran would sometimes come along to our local session with his dad, and it was obvious even then that he is prodigiously talented.

I don't subscribe to the view that these awards are irrelevant. I went to the show in Salford and thoroughly enjoyed it (despite the notorious Don Mclean peformance), so perhaps the televised version didn't get across the atmosphere or quality of the performances. If so, it suggests the BBC isn't really interested enough to do a proper job of it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:34 AM

Ah! the good old days when summers were warm and skies were blue. All was well in the folk world. We knew what folk was and were certain it could not be bettered.
As we slip quietly into old age we are disturbed by the young guns who challenge our perceptions of our beloved music. We cherish older singers, even though we know in our hearts they are past their sell by dates.
The old are free to live in the past, but we should not try to impose our past on the youngs' future.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:41 AM

I wonder why our generation never clicked on that Mississippi John Hurt and Fred Jordan had nothing to teach us. And Ewan MacColl - and Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie - the hours I wasted with outdated rubbish like that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Jim Martin
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 07:23 AM

The 'Red Button' highlights on a 1 hr continuous loop - seem to be very broken , no continuity!

The stage set was apalling, I would have thought for such a high profile presentation, something a lot more tasteful would have been arranged! The performers must have cringed having to be in front of it!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 07:59 AM

I learned a lot from M john hurt, Seeger and woody guthrie, even last night i sat down and played some M J Hurt songs,even though i am supposed to be a concertina player, i will even state that MJH INFLUENCED THE WAY I APPROACH SONG ACCOMPANIMENT ON ENGLISH CONCERTINA.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 09:28 AM

"I do not need you to tell me about young emerging musicians, i can find them easily on you tube, and make up my own mind as to exactly how good they are."

Well, there you go - says it all really.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 09:35 AM

"i can find them easily on you tube, and make up my own mind as to exactly how good they are."

Well, I guess the same thing can be said about long established singers and concertina players.

:-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 09:56 AM

Anais Mitchell was nominated last year for the Best Original Song. This year she won the award for Best Traditional song.

She is making a short UK tour with Jefferson Hamer including;

Sunday, March 2, 2014 The Deaf Institute, 135 Grosvenor Street, Manchester M1 7HE

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:01 AM

cary on making snide remarks, you cannot produce any evidence for your generalised statemenhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olplcsNuqyg take that and better it

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:35 AM

You'll never hear anything better than Nic Jones in his hey day although his own son can perform all the guitar parts very well indeed.

Of course, there has, is, and will be music which is just as good but *different*.

There are good, bad, exceptional, and mediocre musicians of all ages but I wouldn't choose to dismiss a whole generation of performers on the basis of viewing a few "You Tube" clips.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:38 AM

errrmm.. ok.. we understand it's the mudcat norm to completely lose the plot
and skew off on wild tangential irrelevant arguemnts..
but anyone care to remind the rest of us exactly what is the point
of all this bickering about and listing of notable influential artists ????

Anyway, I managed to record the last red button showing of the complete awards show,
and started watching it last night.
So far I've got through the underwhelming 'going through the motions' first half.

[My wife kept herself amused by googling up the date's of birth
of all the venerable awards worthy participants'
and trying to work out how many were related by birth or marriage]

Thankfully, the rather good intermission documentary about the junior folkies bootcamp was a welcome relief..
- all that vibrant energy and enthusiasm..
Now that was a very positive breath of fresh air

Then the start of the 2nd half's dismal showing by Clannad put me to sleep.

So, I'll brace myself to try watching the 2nd half again tonight.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 01:23 PM

i have not dismissed anyone, i disagree with the statement that i think you made which was one of the most stupid generalisations i have ever come across, here..
"In general, today's younger musicians are indeed more knowledgeable and "technically advanced" in musical terms."

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 01:30 PM

Note the first two words "In general".

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:00 PM

all right, in general, the current crop of younger folksingers have selected all the wrong role models and couldn't entertain their adoring parents at their own birthday party. and as for creating a memorable piece of music....not as long as they had a hole in their arse. just in general.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:10 PM

The fact that many of the new generation of folk singers are finding wider audiences, and getting better media coverage, suggests they are doing something right. certainly something which many of the older generation can only dream about.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:35 PM

I know! They hoover up all the support slots. And you sit there at festivals suffering one bout of boredom after another, Songs with fuck all to say sang by young people with the requisite amount of talent to say it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:37 PM

sorry I forgot I was talking about your kids. The only possible reason for your denial of the facts.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 02:49 PM

can't sit on my arse, got to go and play at our regular monthly venue.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 05:08 PM

heres some old geezer who never got a folk award who still played folk music, and didnt need to be taught anything, never got a degree was not young but by god he had ithttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV_ZhBcNiQQ

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 05:47 PM

Well, I must say, this thread makes all our atheist threads look like paragons of common sense and virtue! :-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 06:52 PM

I notice that some of you talk about "folk *singers*" as opposed to traditional musicians and singers.

The latter scene is very strong up here and the mentors and role models are the best in the business.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 11:27 PM

generally.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 03:17 AM

'The latter scene is very strong up here'

Well yes there must be plenty of traditional singers in Heaven.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 05:01 AM

"I suppose every generation has a conceit of itself which elevates it, in its own opinion, above that which comes after it. ("The Open Door")"
― Margaret Oliphant.
seems appropriate.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 05:06 AM

Statler and Waldorf plus a few of their pals are alive and well, it seems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=14njUwJUg1I

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 06:45 AM

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 06:58 AM

dunno hat happened there.

its abit like Paul Simon wrote - you can't be forever blessed.

We're just not living through one of the great periods of folk music at the moment.
what wasit that gave it that historical importance. other generations will analyse it. I suppose some of it had to do with the threat of nuclear nihilation, and th concept of us beig a global village.

MacColl through to McTell, they had to be bohemian and realise that were not living in the same world as their parents. and their outlaw staus gave them a sort of coherence - they were almost like a school o art, the pre-raphaelites, or impessionists.

go to college to learn to be a folksinger. part of the leisure industry well its shite, it isn't their fault. But they've arrived after the match and the crowds gone home.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:02 AM

Hi gss
I have just had time to look at your youtube clips and now realise that you write with your tongue in cheek! ;-) .Well done mate - you had me going for a while!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:24 AM

he sounded pretty serious to me. Dick takes the whole thing of music with all the seriousness he he has in his character.

having given a great portion of his life to creating music - I think it genuinely pisses him off to have it dismissed, just because he's the wrong age group.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:37 AM

Really? He is the same age as me. I don't think that anyone is divsmissing the 'old guard' far from it, but I think some people are not prepared to give credit to some awesome singers and musicians that pulate the current folk scene.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:50 AM

As this thread now seems more about sensitivity to age discrimination in current UK folk,

here's a rousing late 1960's Western movie theme song by USA folkie GLENN YARBROUGH;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrhv4jUvPq4

- dedicated to all mudcatters my age and older...

Now this song is crying out for a Big Al creative makeover;
I'd genuinely enjoy hearing your pisstake rewrite posted to Youtube.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 08:11 AM

Silas, I fully expect that you will find out how serious GSS is, in the very near future.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: Jim Martin
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:27 AM

Nobody agree with me about the appalling stage props?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: johncharles
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 09:50 AM

Dear Jim, I see what you mean. No doubt an expensive set designer has come up with something "reclaimed rustic" as representative of the music; and cheap as chips.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 10:01 AM

Folk Awards sponsored by Cuprinol ???

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:38 PM

"Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: GUEST,silas - PM
Date: 27 Feb 14 - 07:02 AM

Hi gss
I have just had time to look at your youtube clips and now realise that you write with your tongue in cheek! ;-) .Well done mate - you had me going for a while"
Silas, I have no idea what you are talking about, my point [which you seem to be delibrately misunderstanding is that there is no evidence that one generation is better than another].I have not said that there are not good performers in the younger generation, there are. you make a reference to clips of mine,presumably you are trolling, I will select some clips, that i feel are representative of me and explain why I still get booked to do gigs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcBocS_x_M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu8CybKCbss&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A&feature=c4-overview-vl
http:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4//www.youtube.com
http:http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/5148 //www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzU
/watch?v=0lADsPWsoR4
Silas, when you can do half of what i have done and can still do it you might be less of a nonentity in the meantime get yourself a wooden spoon and learn to play that well.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 04:58 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzUhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcBocS_x_M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4now here are some more facts
The following musicians have been happy to session on my recordings Martin Carthy, JEZ lOWE,Sara Grey, Richard Grainger, THIS DOES NOT MEAN I AM BETTER OR WORSE THAN SOMEONE OF A NEWER GENERATION,it means i have spent years practising and performing Folk Music AND OTHER PROFESSIONAL PERFORMERS ARE HAPPYENOUGH THINK I AM GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY WITH ON RECORDINGS, THEIR OPINIONS ARE IN MY OPINION MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOURS do you understand THAT anonymous troll.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards 2014
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 14 - 05:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4