BBC Folk Awards 2014

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Jim Martin
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 07:23 AM

The 'Red Button' highlights on a 1 hr continuous loop - seem to be very broken , no continuity!

The stage set was apalling, I would have thought for such a high profile presentation, something a lot more tasteful would have been arranged! The performers must have cringed having to be in front of it!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:41 AM

I wonder why our generation never clicked on that Mississippi John Hurt and Fred Jordan had nothing to teach us. And Ewan MacColl - and Pete Seeger and Woody Guthrie - the hours I wasted with outdated rubbish like that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:34 AM

Ah! the good old days when summers were warm and skies were blue. All was well in the folk world. We knew what folk was and were certain it could not be bettered.
As we slip quietly into old age we are disturbed by the young guns who challenge our perceptions of our beloved music. We cherish older singers, even though we know in our hearts they are past their sell by dates.
The old are free to live in the past, but we should not try to impose our past on the youngs' future.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 04:23 AM

I've finally got around to watching this on the Red Button. I'd been looking forward to it, but it was so brutally edited that I'll now have to go and listen to the radio version, if it's still on. The camerawork even managed to miss the leapfrog at the climax of the morris dance.

I thought Mark Radcliffe was truly rubbish as MC, he should leave the jokes to Mike Harding.

With the exception of The Full English, and Martin Simpson & Richard Hawley, I was fairly underwhelmed by most of the live performances - even Bellowhead seemed a bit subdued. In particular I found Anaïs Mitchell and Jefferson Hamer's version of "Willie of Winsbury" simply tedious. And what are Jarvis Cocker's credentials for presenting the lifetime achievement award to Martin Carthy? Nice to see Ciaran Algar and Greg Russell win the Horizon Award - when he was even younger than he is now Ciaran would sometimes come along to our local session with his dad, and it was obvious even then that he is prodigiously talented.

I don't subscribe to the view that these awards are irrelevant. I went to the show in Salford and thoroughly enjoyed it (despite the notorious Don Mclean peformance), so perhaps the televised version didn't get across the atmosphere or quality of the performances. If so, it suggests the BBC isn't really interested enough to do a proper job of it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 03:58 AM

Youngsters have *always*
had to learn that!

However, it's only rcently that theyy have been under such intense scrutinisation from assorted arm chair and computer screen critics.

;-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 26 Feb 14 - 03:01 AM

'One thing that may be objectively true, is that there are now so many more highly competent young musicians and singers;
that the bar has been raised for rising adolescent stars to even acheive a reasonable level of mediocrity.'

Whilst this is true, there's a hell of a lot more to being a good entertainer than being a highly competent performer, and some of the youngsters still need to learn that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 07:47 PM

Terrified Tim has got my vote again. Now just calm down, dears! You fellas must lead a really miserable life with so much hate and negativism in you souls!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:49 PM

there was a bloke who had both parents who played the trumpet. he had a better trumpet than Louis Armstrong, and he didn't have to play the same old rubbish that Louis Armstrong played - so of course he was bound to be better than Louis Armstrong.

GSS - you amaze me that you can't follow the simplistic logic of a total dickhead.

We are wasting our time.

I bet you never heard the one bout the saxophonist who was born after Charlie Parker ......

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Terrified Tim
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:49 PM

One thing that may be objectively true, is that there are now so many more highly competent young musicians and singers;
that the bar has been raised for rising adolescent stars to even acheive a reasonable level of mediocrity.

- compared to the 1960s and 70s.....

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:30 PM

Oops, the last three "Guest" comments were from me. I had to reset my cookies for some reason.

It would probably not be too difficult to show that many more young people are playing traditional music in certain parts of the UK than they were forty or fifty years. In Scotland, especially.

More of them have received some form of tuition whether it be on formal courses or having been mentored by more experienced musicians. While there have always been teachers, it used to be much more common to be self taught as far as most "folkie music" was concerned. Less so on the fiddle and accordion or piping circles, I agree.

I can see for myself that there are a lot of musicians out there who have reached a very high standard. Whether they are as good, better, ground breaking or as innovative as previous generations is another matter.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: RTim
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:14 PM

This thread will probably run until the 2015 BBC Folk Awards and everyone will be either right and wrong with their views!! Who really cares.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:26 PM

no, it was not i that said that todays musicians are better than previous generations, i said there is no evidence to say they are any better or any worse than previous generations of musicians, and no one including you has yet provided evidence that they are.
I do not need you to tell me about young emerging musicians, i can find them easily on you tube, and make up my own mind as to exactly how good they are.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 03:34 PM

It's you and Al who are making it into a competition = all I am doing is trying to get you look at some of the emerging superb talent bthat is out there.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 02:38 PM

then there is folk blues, please show me some young player who is technically better than blind blake. YOU INSISTT ON BEING SILLY and you bring roger bannister in to this, you clearly miss the point of music it is not a competition like sport.MUSIC IS NOT ABOUT COMPETITION.MUSIC IS NOT ABOUT TIN PAN ALLY STUPID FUCKING FOLK AWARDS

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 02:30 PM

I have.
I cannot see that he has anything to offer that roscoe holcomb clarence ashley, earl scruggs,ralph stanley, tom paley,sara grey are you seriously trying to tell me that his playing surpasses the afore mentioned, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jmsQxfOsgclarence ashleyhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwlOO8RG-oghers tom paley
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGPervSVSys if you think walsh surpasses these you are clearly unmusical

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 01:19 PM

Well, of course Roger Bannister did the four minute mile - no one can surpass that can they.

As for 5 string banjo players - have you not seen or heard Dan Walsh?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 12:49 PM

What a shame that there'll never be anyone as good as these old timers then?

It's obvious that you don't have a clue what I'm talking about and I don't understand what you are coming from either. However, I'm quite that we both know what we are talking about ourselves.
So, we'll have to agree to differ.
:-)

You can't compare the new kids on the block to legendary performers who have been on the road for years no matter how gifted or talented they may be. The latter have the benefit of experience having honed and mastered their craft over many years.

"nic jones,and carthy were innovators and have yet to be surpassed by younger guitarists, as accompanists, where are the young superior 5 string banjoists?"

They've already done it and there's surely no need to reinvent the wheel? I don't know about 5 string banjo players but there's plenty of great young tenor banjo players but, of course, they still owe the late Barney McKenna loads of respect as he was the pioneer as far as Irish tenor banjo was concerned.

As I've said earlier, I'm not suggesting that the young musicians are any better than the "best" of the previous generation but they are certainly much more talented than the average players and singers were back then. I lived through it all too, by the way. Perhaps our view of the situation is clouded slightly by the fact that we've probably(In many cases) improved ourselves during the intervening years. So, we forget how limited a lot of us were back then

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 12:20 PM

what utter bollocks, davy graham.. mainstream, furthermore nic jones,and carthy were innovators and have yet to be surpassed by younger guitarists, as accompanists, where are the young superior 5 string banjoists?
as for button accordionists none of the irish young ones are any better than finbarr dwyer or paddy o brien .
Finally,I have yet to hear a young concertina player, surpass on song accompaniment of the arrangements of some of the older concertina accompanists, no names no pack drill.
johnny j, your generalisations are your opinion, but in my opinion codswallop., yes there are some good young musicians and singers no one denies that but no evidence they are any better.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 11:52 AM

Why do we seem to have more talented young performers?
1. many are first or second generation from performing families.
2. better access and more enlightened musical and academic education
3. public schools spotting the opportunities in acting and music.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 11:36 AM

I haven't produced a "list" as yet. That must have been someone else.
:-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 11:30 AM

well I admit it does take quite a lot to impress me. its something I take seriously. i'm not familiar with one or two of the names on your list - but others, I would say you have to be joking.

i could only insult you by drawing conclusions about your acuity and insight, from what you have said. not that insulting me has bothered you much. but i think it best that i quit this thread.

yes Will - i understand what you're saying - there are interesting bits and pieces at most gigs. you can learn from players with very limited techniques. but to totally re-imagine the instrument like davy, and the re-imagine it again. i can only think of django rheinhardt and eric roche who did that.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:58 AM

There will only be one Davey Graham and only one of many other great musicians. That is all we really need.

We shouldn't be looking for young musicians to be as good as or the equal to Davey Graham. Surely, they can be themselves and unique in their own way.

All I am really saying is that as far as the good or above average musicians are concerned the bar has got much higher in recent years and there are many more players of that standard or above.

That's fairly inevitable as there are more opportunities available plus a wealth of previous experience (from many of the greats you have mentioned) from which these younger musicians can draw.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:46 AM

I had to laugh at all this. I've been playing for nearly 50 years, and I've known some stunning musicians in that time, believe me - "amateur" and "professional".

What else can one say? If you met them, you met them - if you didn't, you didn't.

'Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:40 AM

"I look forward to hearing anybody of any age as good as Bert or Davy."


Sadly Al, that is unlikeley to happen for you as you don't seem to be interested in up and coming talent. There are plenty of people who are at least the equal of these guys, but you will probably never see them.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:39 AM

Davey had a Scottish dad. and Bert was born and grew up in Scotland.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 10:33 AM

Davey Graham ...mainstream?
and Pol Pot was a liberal democrat....

Let me assure you, there was planet Davy Graham....and then the rest of us. He would have been exceptional in any age.

Bert Jansch's don't turn up in bus loads either

As for showing the way....I don't really know where to start.
Steve Knightley said in an interview a few months back - the trouble with this sort of music - you have to do it for about ten years before you're any good.

I look forward to hearing anybody of any age as good as Bert or Davy. As the late |Roger Brooks once said to me - you're jamming with Bert and you're thinking this is easy - the he just goes off in another gear.... he is stunningly original.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 09:25 AM

"How would you define a Scottish act, anyway?"

Scottish acts will be granted Protected Designation of Origin.

At least Bella Hardy will have a say on whether she becomes a Scottish folk singer or not. I won't be allowed to vote on it.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 09:19 AM

I agree with Johnny J. The current generatgion have leaned a lot from the pioneering generation that has been mentioned, have learned and moved it forward. Instumentalists of today, and I mean particularly theb younger ones are far, far in advance of almost anything that I saw in the seventies amnd eighties. Look at people like Tim Edey, Dan Walsh, Jim Moray, Blair Dunlop, Ciaran Algar and Greg Russell and I could fill a page with names. The reason that we single out Swarb, Bert Jansch, Davey Graham is because they were exceptional - I would say that side by side, in comparison with the current talenty on offer they they would be mainstream. BUT - they did show the way.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 09:09 AM

I never had the chance to hear "Davy Graham? Bert Jansch? Al Stewart?" in their teenage years but the fact that names such as those stand out from the crowd would indicate that they were in a minority at the time.

Most young folkies at that time were lucky if they could string together more than four or five chords and there were very few good instrumentalists to be heard back then. You had fiddlers like Swarb, Aly Bain and so on but even they were still in the early stages of their careers.

Evidence?

Compare old recordings from that period with what's available now.

Of course, these great musicians have developed and improved over the years but so will those young ones of today.

Also, please note I did say "In general" and, therefore, I didn't mean that the best of today's young musicians were necessarily better than "the best" of previous generations. However, I'd suggest that it is fairly obvious that far more of them have reached a higher standard than back then.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 08:26 AM

Quite right, Dick - such generalisations have no evidence to back them up. More knowledgeable and technically advanced than... Davy Graham? Bert Jansch? Al Stewart?

And how about this old boy - still playing - who was a huge influence on many of us about 1970 or so:

David Laibman - The Ragtime Oriole

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 08:14 AM

"In general, today's younger musicians are indeed more knowledgeable and "technically advanced" in musical terms"   That is your opinion, my opinion based on what I see and hear is that there is no evidence to suggest that they are any more or less so. I still see young bands who are crap and or very loud and doing things purely to be different, and young bands and solo musicians who are very good, neither is there any proof that they are any more knowledgeable than previous generations.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 07:10 AM

I agree Will, Sting probably has gambled! but with some of the best artists from the English folk scene(although not one of them mentioned at these "awards")he couldn't go far wrong, considering the project material. A fantastic CD(which I purchased although not a Sting fan)and a great show which the "BBC" televised in December

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:37 AM

Johncharles - I think I may have phrased that badly - I have no problems with ameteurism (however it is spelt) none at all, in fact I love the very rawness of general folk music. But I think the general public do percieve folk music as very much an ameteur genre and the point I was (badly) tying to make is these guys are far from amateur.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:34 AM

oh yeah.. and the Albert effin' Hall - how much does that cost to book then ?

Our local Social Club is massive, and it's got a stage and PA in the corner.
I'm sure Tony the manager could sort out a deal for next year's awards ceremony.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 06:04 AM

well johnny - i'd say sod the politicians and politics. lets think in terms of great Britain as was before 1922.

I think a lot of the regional differences are a bit arbitrary. most of us are mixed race, and the cities are full of Irish and Welsh people and there is a great cross fertilisation of songs.

does a Belfast person who comes to work in Sheffield still sing The Doffin Mistress - yeh course they do. they acquire a Sheffield accent and put Yorkshire words and mill slang in over time. I mean that's just human behaviour.

similarly off to Dublin in the green - many regional variations can be heard in English folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:52 AM

"They do shed the ametuerism (amateurism)that folk music is well known for, but is that a bad thing?"
Without amateurs, both collecting and performing, it is unlikely that folk music would have ever reached the dizzy heights of having televised award ceremonies. They maintain the tradition of live music and no doubt form a significant part of the audience for the folk professionals.
john

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:23 AM

Further to my last post, Bella also regularly performs and records with Scottish musicians who would obviously deserve to be recognised too.
:-)

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:17 AM

well as I've pointed out the programmes do exist but on dvd that you have to pay for.
the bbc is in a better position to pay for them than me - but if I want to see a decent folk programme that's what I have to do. that is in fact what I do.

the difference is that guys like Trevor Dann (biographer of Nick Drake) actually know something about folk music.

Isn't this really what this debate is about. The nation showing some respect for an art form. bugger the photo opportunities for the goodies and has 1970's dj's, and retired comedians. the flotsam and jetsam of the media. this serious stuff - wiz jones has played for nearly sixty years, blues that blind boy fuller only played for about five or six years |(BBF was dead before he was thirty). Wizz is damn good.

this isn't strictly dancing on ice. bugger the celebrities. lets put a proper focus on the artform and yes - you're right Silas (if you let the pigs decide it, they will put you in the sty, as the ISB said) let the current gang of twats decide it and you will have a series devoted to the shite with major recoding contracts - money will change hands. as Lloyd webber said, I know them so well.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:15 AM

"It may be the last time that the Scots are eligible for the BBC Folk Awards.

In future there may be the British less Scottish (BLESS) Awards and separate CAledonian Broadcasting Ethnic Recognition Show (The CABERS). "

Well, that would not necessarily be the case as several Irish acts have featured over the years.

How would you define a Scottish act, anyway?
After all, Bella Hardy lives in Scotland and she is very welcome too.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:10 AM

I agree about Sting. I also though the Nic Jones doc was done extremely well. I have other thoughts about the Unthanks documentaries - good as it was to have seen them and not in any way knocking the Unthanks, I think they could have been done better. The Transatlanic sessions are slick - no doubt about that - but for me it is the pinnacle of what can be achieved by top quality musicians and singers getting together. They do shed the ametuerism that folk music is well known for, but is that a bad thing?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 05:09 AM

I've posted this before here - and I'll post it again. This is what the music is all about...

The Kansas City Hornpipe/ Jarlath's Tune - Bruce Molsky & Fred Morrison

Oh for some more wonderful, simply presented, glorious stuff like this!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:59 AM

I know what the problem is, Silas - and I used to work for the Beeb many years ago. There have to be value judgments, naturally, but at least an individual series producer can construct a set of boundaries in which to work and develop a series theme - and that theme can be examined and debated if necessary.

Just look at what Sting is doing with his show about the Gateshead shipyards - wonderful. But then he has money and mixes with money, so he can get his talent and the talents of others up there with an audience. Still takes guts though.

I'm glad, on the whole, that we still have the Transatlantic Sessions, though - like others - I've been increasingly frustrated over the years with what I perceive to be a growing blandness in the presentation. But, hey-ho, that's just me - I like a bit of grit in the mix - and to my mind, series 6 can't compare with series 2 or 3 , for example.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: melodeonboy
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:58 AM

"For me the whole point of Folk based music is that its is reactionary"

I certainly hope that it never becomes that!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Silas
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:45 AM

The problem is Will, as I am sure you are aware, if some enterprising TV company took this on board, there would still be the mudcat whiners complaing about 'why wasn't so and so given an episode' or 'Why did the do one on that talentless sod' etc. No one can win here. I just enjoy what is avaliable.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:38 AM

From this thread I think we can divide Catters into two camps.

1. Those who just know what they like and ignore the rest
2. Those who think that commercial success is evil.

That's a simplistic judgement, and shows how far the thread has drifted. The awards are nothing to do with commercial success or otherwise - and may or may not be a guarantee of future success. They're nothing to do with age or styles of music or geographical area, or professionalism or amateurism - or even a yardstick by which other people should measure themselves. In my view, which I stated originally, they're an arbitrary, showbiz beanfeast which, like other awards, highlight some people while ignoring equally good people - for reasons which I know not. And that's why I don't care for awards ceremonies.

I don't begrudge anyone commercial success or making money from music - any kind of music - in any way they can. It would be hypocritical for me to do so when I've made money myself doing the business over the years. And I don't care what music people choose to play or how old they are, or what their background is. My dears, I don't give a damn - let each person do just what they want to, and each of us will go with what we like.

Some posters here have said that we shouldn't begrudge the performers their moment on radio/TV, etc., and that it's good to hear the music in the media. I absolutely agree with that, but I think the hoo-hah surrounding and awards ceremony, with all the crap that surrounds it, is boring and expensive. What I would really like to see is the money being spent on a series of 30 minute TV programmes, each one allocated to a performer or a group - and I believe Al suggested this back in the thread. That would be real exposure for the music and show much greater commitment to it than a one-off, annual awards bash. But I don't think we'll get that from SmoothOperations, or whatever they call themself. Granted, such a series would also a selective process, but at least there would be an identified series producer with a brief that one could see.

But I might as well spit into the wind...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 04:37 AM

It may be the last time that the Scots are eligible for the BBC Folk Awards.

In future there may be the British less Scottish (BLESS) Awards and separate CAledonian Broadcasting Ethnic Recognition Show (The CABERS).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 25 Feb 14 - 03:56 AM

I'll take that as a veiled compliment, Al. I said these young folk were 40 yrs younger than me. That makes them about mid to late 20s, not pre-pubertal!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Johnny J
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:56 PM

"we know nowt about folk music compared to pre pubertal Scots people."

I don't believe that anyone is saying or suggesting that but many of them are certainly more talented and knowledgeable than I was at that "pre pubertal age" and in many other areas too besides folk music.

Of course, such youngsters have had more opportunities than me(and most of us here, I'm sure).   On the other hand, many other young people still don't get these and are, sadly, even worse off than we were in many ways.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:45 PM

yeh that's us!

we hate money and we know nowt about folk music compared to pre pubertal Scots people.

mind you I used hear all this bollocks years ago.

the way it manifested itself in those days was:-

1. there are ten year olds in Ireland who play better fiddle than Dave Swarbrick
2. white people can't play the blues

live long enuff the recycled rubbish will be served up to you as current thinking.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 24 Feb 14 - 06:21 PM

From this thread I think we can divide Catters into two camps.

1. Those who just know what they like and ignore the rest
2. Those who think that commercial success is evil.