BS: Ukraine

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 03:54 PM

"Sorry Christmas the Guinard only witters on about licences."
No the don't they state specifically that the sale was official - no wittering
The sale was covered in several papers - so far you have just denied them, after saying they were not a sufficient quantity to do any damage, rtat no licenses were issued, that the licences were issued and rescinded, probably for sporting purposes.... and several other excuses before you settled for "the newspapers made them up".   
Your thick mate settled for them being "only a few sniper rifles" - you went along with that at first
Consistency man, consistency, didn't Captain Mainwearing teach you that in the Home Guard?
You really are an unashamed feckin' eejit!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 12:13 PM

Twelve months on, the Kremlin has gotten away with the biggest territory heist the continent has seen since World War II.

The Crime of the Century

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 10:12 AM

Sorry Christmas the Guinard only witters on about licences. Perhaps you could name these British Government owned factories that are churning out all these weapons that are being sold by the British Government to Assad? Perhaps you could name the weapons being sold? After all you have said you have "details of the sales and actual charts showing the sales." - Don't worry petal I won't hold my breath - I do not anticipate getting any factual reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 09:11 AM

"Russia's finance ministry says the car being sought in connection with the killing of Kremlin critic Boris Nemtsov belonged to an "in-house security service" for the ministry, according to the Russian news agency TASS."

Business Insider

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 05:58 AM

"What I have been given Christmas are not reports but speculative newspaper articles"
A total invention on your part - the Guardian article presented government details of the sales and actual charts showing the sales.
Doesn't matter anyway - the articles came from as far apart as The Guardian, The Daily Mail and the Telegraph - at least two of which are establishment mouthpieces and are hardly likely to make up evidence which shows the establishment in a bad light
Your denial of press reports is a regular feature of your arguments - all you offer in return is somewhat bullying and blustering denial - as here.
If these reports are false, show that they are - they were never denied by the Government - only you.
You're like the barber's cat, full of wind and pee, as my mother used to say (remember her - you once described her as a whore?)
You really are a bit of a low-life, aren't you?
Now - where's your evidence that these sales were made up (or even denied by anybody but you and the clown?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Mar 15 - 04:17 AM

What I have been given Christmas are not reports but speculative newspaper articles that say that the Government of the UK granted exported licences to private third parties who may or may not have completed the transactions. Nothing whatsoever about the British Government selling arms to Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 07:38 PM

"What reports Christmas??"
Still denying what you've been given - didn't doubt it for a minute
Try the Homs Horror thread (wher you and braindead took a severe thrashing) - all there and on record
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 06:41 PM

"You've had the reports"

What reports Christmas??

Do you mean newspaper articles that you just happen to agree with? Newspaper articles that state that the British Government issued export licences - nothing about the British Government selling anything.

You have no grasp of detail, no perspective, no understanding of what has been plainly reported. And after three years I am most certainly not going to waste my time discussing it with you, I will only continue to tell you that you are lying through your teeth and that you are guilty of deliberately misrepresentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 03:29 PM

Further wisdom from Keith on the sale of equipment to the Assad regime also from the Homs Horror Saga
Jim Carroll

"Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 11 Feb 12 - 03:15 PM
Even liberal democracies have to deal with riots.
Non-lethal crowd control techniques are preferrable to live rounds.
If only Syria would restrict its security forces to using tear gas and water.
It would not be such a crime to supply such things, compared to what Russia and China supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 03:24 PM

"That a definite enough statement for you Christmas??
From you - of course bloody not - who the hell do you think you are?
You've had the reports all you can do is deny them

From your mate Keith on the Homs Horror site
"11 Feb 12 - 09:21 AM
"You have clearly been searching vigorously, but all you have come up with is some sniper rifles.
The only other "weapons" supplied were armour plated buses, tear gas and water cannon."
Better organise a quick hymn-sheet rehearsal - you're singing a little out-of-tune here, doncha think?
On the other hand "Instead of just spluttering and ranting of course you could come up with some facts"
Denials don't hack it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 02:13 PM

The British Government has sold no arms to Assad - his forces use no British weapons, weapon systems and what arms and weaponry Assad does have does not use any calibre used by any British light or heavy weapons - that a definite enough statement for you Christmas??

Instead of just spluttering and ranting of course you could come up with some facts - newspaper articles referring to the granting of export licences to third parties in the dim and distant past does not equate to the actual sale and delivery of weapons to Assad by the British Government.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 02:04 PM

My condemnation of Russia and China's role in Syria has been there since the beginning of this argument
You used the same slime-ball argument at the beginning of the Homs Horror thread
As British citizens, the British Government is selling arms to monsters in my and your names - hw about some condemnation of that indisputable fact - not a single word so far
Jim Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:58 PM

"Liked the complete and utter lie that these items had been "sold to Assad by Britain""
All of these items were sold to Assag#d, despite your denials, you rode off into the sunset having failed to prove otherwise
You were given documented details of all of them - you denied it in stages - not sold, not licencesd, not sent, not enough to make a difference - and then silence.
Keith argued about the sniper ammunition (after having mistaken them for rifles) "All you were able to find was a few sniper rifles" - the he followed you steps.
Regarding the armored cars and riot equipment, he actually proposed that it was ok to sell this to a murderous dictator strangely saying "even a democracy has a right to keep law and order"
One artcle actually came with photographs of British armoured cars and water cannon being used on the streets with the caption pointing out what they were.
The sale of chemicals became a cause-celébre - too well-known even to bother about.
What planet do you establishment arse-lickers occupy?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 01:07 PM

"Amnesty reports have suggested athat, along with the sniper ammunition, armoured cars, riot control equipment and chemicals which have seen sold to Assad by Britain, some of the electrical equipment (for peaceful purposes, of course) has been used to torture prisoners of the regime." - an old chesnut of Jim Carroll's

Liked the complete and utter lie that these items had been "sold to Assad by Britain"

The British Government sold nothing, they granted export licences to private companies, absolutely no evidence that the standard NATO 7.62mm ammunition (tiny quantity) sale ever went through, the "armoured cars" Jim refers to were in fact armoured buses to transport police, while they may have been "armoured" in terms of glass and body-work they were not "armed" (no guns), chemicals? Sodium Flouride which is used in the maanufacture of cosmetics and the last licence expired in 2010, and is Jim really trying to tell us that Syria or any other nation for that matter should be denied electricity on the basis of what it might be used for? All this lot sold months before Assad Junior started slaughtering his citizenry with light and heavy weapons supplied by the shipload, month in and month out by Russia and China (Yet for some weird reason Jim doesn't single them out for condemnation)

No grasp of detail and no sense of perspective Jim - sad - same old shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:36 AM

Who finances Aljazeera?.......Hysterical nonsense.

Every government tries to control and manipulate, ever watched BBC lately? Try one of their late night World Radio channels they are full of propaganda.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 08:30 AM

"liberalism" should evolve.....if it must. Installing it at the point of a gun is a grave mistake"
You are joking, of course?
Syria is run by a despotic dynastic dictatorship which has been jailing, torturing and murdering its opponents for decades.
Amnesty reports have suggested athat, along with the sniper ammunition, armoured cars, riot control equipment and chemicals which have seen sold to Assad by Britain, some of the electrical equipment (for peaceful purposes, of course) has been used to torture prisoners of the regime.
The Arab Spring protests were just that - protests - they were met with armed police and military opposition; some evolved into open revolt - the only type of evolution that is likely to change anything in these countries.
Britain and the US (and the West in general) has had no compunction in intervening in any country that they conceive as a threat to their own well-being - this has taken the form of open military intervention and CIA et al, 'Black Ops'
Vietnam, Cuba, Nicaragua, Guatamala, Bolivia, Brazil, The Phillipines.... the list of countries where the West has been happy to intervene, is endless
As far back as the Russian Civil War 14 western countries sent troops to overthrow the government and following World War Two, British troops were sent to assist the fascist terrorists in Greece.
The U.S. was supporting extremist right-wing regime after regime in South Vietnam - notably that of Hitler admirer, Marshall Ky.
Britain and the U.S. welcomed the Military coup in Chile with open arms and following the arrest of Pinochet for murdering and torturing thousands of his opponents, that nice Mrs Thatcher fought tooth and nail to prevent him from being brought to trial, declaring him " a hero of democracy".
The West is not interested in assisting democracy anywhere in the world unless any changes brought about are to their political and economic advantage - on the contrary, it is happy to intervene in any way at their disposal if that particular brand of 'democracy' doesn't suit them.
What is certain is that change and modernisation in the Middle East is both desirable and, eventually inevitable.
The outcome of those changes depaend very much on what assistance they get - so far, the West has helped Isis to be the front runner.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 07:38 AM

"The Kremlin propaganda machine is Soviet "agitprop" on steroids, critics say, also comparing it to the methods of Joseph Goebbels, Nazi Germany's propaganda minister, or to the Orwellian "Two Minute Hate" broadcasts."

Kremlin spin and the killing of Boris Nemtsov

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 05:24 AM

Jim, from all reports, Libya is a lawless wasteland, ruled by warring tribes....fertile breeding ground for fundamentalist Islam.

The despots were there as a barrier to what we see growing in parts of Syria and Iraq. We were too stupid or naïve to see that before our "humanitarian interventions" in Iraq and Libya.....but we have no such excuses now.

"liberalism" should evolve.....if it must. Installing it at the point of a gun is a grave mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 15 - 04:16 AM

in the manner that we removed Gadaffi, the whole of Syria would now be under IS rule?
As Libya is now under IS rule, you mean?
Nobody has ever suggested removing anybody - a proposal was made to send assistance to the rebels on humanitarian grounds - that proposal was voted down and nothing was done.
Isis leapt into the gap, recruited supporters from among people who were fighting Assad and rose from being an unknown fanatical entity to a world threat and we are now involved in fighting in the Middle East, with Assad as our ally.
The alternative to doing nothing in countries that wished to modernise during the Arab Spring revolts was to leave those despots being opposed where they were, which is what the west decided to do, and never had any real intention of doing anything else - bad business otherwise.
As I have always said, if oil had been a factor things would have been very different.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/07/u-s-assad-s-machinery-of-death-worst-since-the-nazis.html
jIM cARROLL

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 05:14 PM

I don't really understand your point Jim, surely if the West had removed Assad in the manner that we removed Gadaffi, the whole of Syria would now be under IS rule?

Assad and the West are at last fighting together against these head chopping monsters.....Assad said right from the beginning that the uprising was started by Islamic terrorists using a few "liberal useful idiots" as a smoke screen just as they did in every other country in the Middle East and North Africa.

No sensible person thinks that Western "democracy" can be transplanted into tribal cultures.....in my opinion even our leaders know that and de-stabilisation is their goal, but they have started to realise that the genie will not go back into the bottle.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 04:50 PM

the long list of political murders that have occurred under Vladimir Putin's watch

Two words, Guest: Salvador Allende.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 12:09 PM

Amy Knight on the killing of Boris Nemtsov, and the long list of political murders that have occurred under Vladimir Putin's watch:

Russia: Another Dead Democrat

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 08:15 AM

"just look at how our politicians treat Russia and its president."
A somewhat odd statement about someone who, along with China, managed to block any action against the war crimes being perpetrated by Syrian butcher Assad.
If it hadn't been for the actions of "free Russia" in this matter, Isis need never have got a toe-hold in the Middle East.
This isn't to say that what is happening in the Ukraine is a one-way-street.
A NOT-TOO-BAD SUMMING UP OF THE SITUATION
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 07:52 AM

Well, nobody who was not immediately involved knows who killed Nemtsov, but the last few posts seemed to indicate Mr Putin as being guilty. This seems highly unlikely for all the reasons reported in the news media.

As for Mr Putin promoting an atmosphere of "paranoia", just look at how our politicians treat Russia and its president.
Hypocrisy or what?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 07:29 AM

The Guardian has a slightly different take on the matter than what is being put out by the Kremlin and it's TV stations:

Was Boris Nemtsov killed because in Russia opposition figures are deemed traitors?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 05:23 AM

"Meanwhile, the wait for answers continues. The attack took place in an area saturated with video cameras. Within hours, one television station was showing footage of the killing -- albeit from a considerable distance. Nemtsov was almost certainly under surveillance at the time.

If the Kremlin did not know before, it very likely knows by now who the killer was. Its next decision will be how to use the information for its own purposes. Whether or not the actual perpetrators are caught and punished, all know who created the climate of hatred in which liberal politicians are likened to "jackals who hang around foreign embassies" and a "fifth column" of traitors.

Nemtsov in his later years was never a threat to Putin's regime. Hardly a radical revolutionary, he cooperated with the authorities to avoid violence by moving the site of the first major Moscow demonstration in December 2011, and he participated in discussions with then-President Dmitry Medvedev about reforms of the political system.

Having come to symbolize for most Russians the disorder of the 1990s, he had little chance of rising to the top again. Indeed, he was the kind of liberal -- unbowed, unabashedly pro-Western, unpopular -- whom the Kremlin loved to hate. Now it will have to find somebody else."

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Mar 15 - 05:06 AM

Interesting CNN report on Nemtsov's position in Russian politics

"A spent "liberal" force?"

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 07:14 PM

"A stunning interview published today by Novaya Gazeta (one of very few independent media outlets remaining in totalitarian Russia), showcases the warped mentality of Putin's soldiers in Ukraine. Dorzhi Batomunkuev is a Russian soldier, who participated in a tank battle near Debaltseve. He detailed the process of deployment of Russian troops to Ukraine and outlined his own participation. While the information he revealed is quite staggering, Batomunkuev's self-described mindset is equally as revealing. Although the troops were initially told they are going to participate in military exercises, all soldiers knew where they were going. "Even if we do military exercises first, we'll be sent to bomb khokhols [derogatory slur used by Russians to describe Ukrainians]."

Batomunkuev describes the process of "maskirovka" (military deception) that commenced in Russia: painting over the license plates, disguising tanks, removing military patches and epaulets, leaving passports and military ID's with their military divisions. "We all knew where we were going. I was fully adjusted, mentally and physically, to the fact that we would have to go to Ukraine."

Russian soldier fighting in Ukraine is proud of Putin for deceiving the world

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 01:36 PM

"The most likely scenario is that one of his business deals went wrong, simply a gangland hit....another possibility is anti Putin elements setting it up"

Ha, ha, ha.........if you believe that maybe you would be interested in a bridge I have for sale.

Here's another good one from the party line: Moscow police; "Rain washed away all usable traces of the Nemtsov murder"

Photo of murder site

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 01:16 PM

I fail to see what the possible benefit to Mr Putin would be in ordering the murder of a dissident with little public support, right outside his front door.   I just doesn't make sense.

Mr Putin is at the moment, one of the most popular presidents ever in Russia.....he regularly polls over 60% in popularity, why on earth would he involve himself in this?

If Nemtsov had really been a danger to Putin...and most observers say that he was a decade out of date, with no power base, surely he could have been bought off or eliminated without it being done on widescreen TV?

The most likely scenario is that one of his business deals went wrong, simply a gangland hit....another possibility is anti Putin elements setting it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 12:43 PM

"Kinda like the Black Panthers were"
Don't forget George Jackson (and a bit further afield Archbishop Romero), or Patice Lumumba.
All states and institutions have ways of removing yjjeir 'little problems'

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 12:14 PM

Now they are just gunned down in the street.

Kinda like the Black Panthers were.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 11:41 AM

"Now they are just gunned down in the street."
That's capitalism for you (not that Stalin was a communist by policy)
Interesting to examine Nemstsov's agenda - if Yeltsin hadn't got him, The CIA would've
Jim Carroll

NEMTSOV WAS A CAMPAIGNER AGAINST BANDIT CAPITALISM
CONOR O'CLERY

Neither his looks, his charm nor his integrity could save the 'golden boy' of Russian democracy
In the summer of 1994 Boris Nemtsov was a frequent telephone caller to our house in Washington DC as his 10-year-old daughter Zhanna was staying with us on her way to and from summer camp in Virginia,
A few years before, when I was Moscow correspondent of the Irish Times, Boris Nemtsov had emerged as one of the pere¬stroika generation of reform¬ers.
He began his political activ¬ism in 1988 in a successful campaign to prevent a nuclear power station being built in Gorky, since renamed Nizhny Novgorod.
Aged just 32, he was elected to the Russian Supreme Soviet in 1990 in the dying days of the Soviet Union. After the collapse of communism, President Boris Yeltsin appointed him first governor of Nizhny Novgorod.
He was tall, charming and good-looking, with an integrity and an exuberance for change that made him known as the "golden boy" of the fledging Russian democracy.
Yeltsin put him in charge of the first attempt at dismantling the communist system of state ownership in an orderly fashion. It was a pilot programme involving the privatisation of six state-owned farms in the Nizh¬ny-Novgorod region.
The model for this was constructed by the International Finance Corporation, in Washing¬ton, an off-shoot of the World Bank.
As a consultant on a team under Anthony Doran, manager of IFC's Russia division, which conceived and executed the project, my wife (also called Zhanna) came in contact with Nemtsov (hence his daughter staying with us).
Farm employees
The dining table in our house in the Washington suburb of Bethesda in those days was often strewn with documents translated into Russian on how to create entitlement certificates to give farm employees the purchasing power to buy land and property.
It was a complicated process based on fairness. Land entitlement certificates had to be equal in value but property certificates were calculated according to seniority, and pensioners and service providers had to be accommodated.
Much of the work involved legal terminology and components, and the production of Russian-language manuals.
Russian prime minister Victor Chernomyrdin endorsed the pilot programme and it became the template for privatising business, industry and property throughout Russia.
Nemtsov's achievements as a reformer were recognised by Yeltsin who appointed him a deputy prime minister in 1997. Nemtsov began a campaign against what he called "bandit capitalism". He insisted on top bureaucrats disclosing their incomes and using Russian-made cars.
However the idealistic Nemtsov was unable to prevent the rapid development of a culture of quick profits, corruption and oligarch capitalism.
The voucher system worked out at the IFC was overwhelmed with corrupt auctions. Loans for shares gave for¬mer party officials and bureau¬crats the means to grab enormous parcels of property.
Before stepping down in 1999, Yeltsin spoke of Nemtsov as his successor but in the end nominated former KGB official Vladimir Putin, who could be trusted not to pursue corruption charges against Yeltsin's family circle.
Neither wanted a reformer
Before stepping down in 1999, Yeltsin spoke of Nemtsov as his successor but in the end nominated former KGB official Vladimir Putin, who could be trusted not to pursue corruption charges against Yeltsin's family circle
in the Kremlin who would pursue a vision of a transparent, free and competitive society based on the rule of law. That this happened is Russia's tragedy.
We got Zhanna Nemtsova safely back on the plane to Russia after her stay in the US. Today she is a journalist working in Moscow for RBC-TV.
Conor O'Clery is a former Moscow and Washington correspondent of the Irish Times

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Mar 15 - 04:36 AM

At least dissidents got a show trial in Stalin's time.
Now they are just gunned down in the street.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 09:55 AM

Andrea Chalupa: "Putin always feared, ever since the Orange Revolution, that his pesky neighbor Ukraine would export revolution to Russia. That's why he killed Boris Nemtsov who was devoted to Ukraine and about to release damning evidence of Russia's invasion. Today at the Moscow protest, as thousands marched, a member of Ukraine's parliament was singled out and arrested. The Kremlin repeatedly ignores calls from the International community to free Ukrainian pilot Nadiya Savchenko, a POW on an 80+ day hunger strike who has become a symbol of resistance. In short, Putin fears Ukraine. He has the second most powerful military in the world, but he's worried about a country with a depleted military; that's the power of being on the right side of history. There's no greater might than the longing for freedom."

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 15 - 08:19 AM

This is an English-language translation of an op-ed by the slain Russian opposition leader, Boris Nemtsov, that the Kyiv Post published on Sept. 1, 2014. It is worth reading and re-reading to understand why Vladimir Putin decided to wage war against Ukraine.

One excerpt: "Ukraine became an example of an anti-criminal revolution, which overthrew a thieving president. 'Oh so you dared to get out onto the street and throw off a president?' Ukraine needs to be punished for it to make sure that no Russian would gets these thoughts. Moreover, Ukraine chose the European way, which implies the rule of law, democracy and change of power. Ukraine's success on this way is a direct threat to Putin's power because he chose the opposite course – a lifetime in power, filled with arbitrariness and corruption."


Boris Nemtsov: 'This is Vladimir Putin's war'

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 07:50 PM

The Donetsk terrorist gangs are using artillery to execute Russian mercenaries who are owed back pay for several months of "service," reports Liga.net, citing the Russian TV journalist Timur Olevsky.

Terrorists at the so-called "Donetsk People's Republic" (DNR) are executing Russian mercenaries to avoid paying them back wages, the well-know Russian journalist Timur Olevsky, a correspondent for the independent Dozhd TV channel, reported on his Facebook page, February 26.

"In Pisky I saw a strange scene. For four hours the DNR artillery pounded a building near the airport where another DNR unit was located. I even did a news report on it. I could not understand what was happening. And the Ukrainian officers could not understand it. They only said that it happened quite often. First they fired on their own and then they opened fire on them," Olevsky wrote.

Olevsky said the explanation was provided by a journalist who lives in Novosibirsk and who managed to return alive from the Donbas after several months fighting on the side of the DNR terrorists. "He said that this is the way they kill the mercenaries from Russia to avoid paying them the promised wages. They may owe them three months back pay, and before their return they shoot them down with artillery fire if they have managed to survive some useless battle. The Donetsk airport was one of those places. "Written off," Olevsky concluded.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Feb 15 - 07:36 AM

Last week, President Petro Poroshenko said Ukrainian security services had discovered that Russia directly orchestrated the killing of anti-government protesters in central Kyiv last February.
Petro Poroshenko, Ukrainian President: "The General Prosecutor's Office and Ukraine's Security Services have found a direct link to Russia's part in the shooting of Maidan protesters. Now investigators have access to the records of phone conversations between former President Yanukovych and Russia's Federal Security Service. Together they planned the shootings."
In response, Vladimir Putin said the claims that Russia was involved in the Maidan massacre were baseless.

20 Russian FSB agents suspected of Euromaidan Revolution crimes identified

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Ukie
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:34 PM

Many errors due to autocorrect on Korean phone. Halychyna not "Halcyon" lol. Not "Postal Jews" but rather "Moskal Jews" lolol. Not "lovers" but losers in a conflict. Damn Korean phone. You must teach it! Marx = Max etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST,Ukie
Date: 25 Jul 14 - 08:18 PM

Well I read through this entire thread and I must tell you that Jim Carroll is right. My grandparents came from Halcyon a (Galicia) and to say that my grandfather hated Russians would be an understatement- with an extreme passion! My grandmother was much more tolerant. She explained that east and west Ukraine were different. West hates Russia and is closer to Polish and east were pretty much Russian. But she also taught me that we are descended from the same people, the Rus, and would have remained one people had it not been for the Mongol Invasion. One people, much more alike than different in a myriad of ways, and different from the West, ruled by the heart.

The Ukie Nazis are a blight on our people. There is no excuse for the western media's blackout on this except that they have a nefarious agenda where our people are concerned and have given these haters a prominent place in the so-called revolution and current regime.

What the Ukie Nazis believe I am intimately familiar with and it smacks of the same sort of revisionist history/mythology that the Germans Nazis once espoused. First off, there must be an all purpose scapegoat. We all know who that is. Ukie Nazis don't hate all Jews, just "Postal Jews." For example, they don't hate benefactor Jewish oligarch Kolmoisky, recently appointed as governor of Dnipetrovsk, notorious for his mafias type business practices.

The Ukie Nazis cry crocodile tears over the Holodomor. The Holodomor never touched their regions. The Holodomor occurred primarily in the east, in the regions that were part of Russia until Lenin gifted them to Ukraine in the 1920's much as Kruschev gifted Crimea in 1954.Stalin, a Georgian, starved those regions for a few different reasons. 1.) Agricultural prowess that could produce exports that could finance his plans for industrialization (to compete with the west who I might had imposed similar hardships on their own "subjects" (Let's not forget the Irish famine). 2.) These were the regions inhabited by the people (many of them Cossacks) who fought against the Bolshevik Revolution. History is rife with examples of retaliation against lovers in a conflict. 3.) They were FARMERS. Land was very important to them. They were ideologically opposed to sharing in the sense that socialism espoused. They were branded "kulaks", counter - revolutionaries who should be forced into collectives or face genocide. I'm not altogether sure that Max or Lenin held farmers to the same standards as factory owners but that neither here nor there. Stalin was a monster. Not even Russian. In any case, none of this transpired in west Ukraine, land of Svoboda. You wouldn't know that to hear them rant about it.

Ukie Nazis are not descendants of Zaphorizian Cossacks in any sense although they have coopted the legacy of these great warriors much as Hitler would have done.

Open for discussion. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:21 AM

Baghdad, Boo-Bad

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:09 AM

I would encourage those who are still buying into Russian propaganda re the uprising and slaughter of protesters in the Maidan, to read this article:

Photographs Expose Russian-Trained Killers in Kiev

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:12 PM

Just looking at the locals where I am now (Sakhalin) it's fairly obvious that a high percentage of the middle-aged men have some pretty severe alcohol problems. Almost everyone smokes.

I imagine it's similar in Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:54 PM

aneki gives no documentation. reliability?

The Wikipedia entry also gives the CIA Factbook rankings; doesn't agree with aniki either.

Rates for eastern Europe are high in general, but a number of African countries are worse.

Others- Belgium, 60; UK, 82; Germany, 45; Latvia surprisingly high at 18.
(OECD listing)

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:07 PM

Actually, Ukraine does have a high mortality rate. Very similar to that of Russia, possibly even slightly higher. I wouldn't trust pdq's source for its exact position in a "mortality league table" but it IS much higher than western Europe and similar to nearby areas of Russia and Belarus. Source for this is:

Ukraine: The Social Sectors during Transition
A World Bank Country Study, 2010


There seem to be various reasons:

- a high incidence of smoking/ smoking-related diseases
- a high incidence of high blood pressure
- a very skewed demographic due to wars, famines and Soviet-era purges
- poor pollution controls in the industrialised east of the country
- low birthrate

Since the end of the soviet era there has been a gradual improvement, but the older generations were born and brought up under those conditions and what we are seeing now as those generations die off early is the consequences of the pollution, deprivation etc they lived their earlier decades under. Mortality rates dropped significantly between 1980 and 2010.

This has been compounded since independence by the aspirations of a large proportion of Ukrainians to adopt a western lifestyle (ie fast-food diet, less physical exercise) but without improving very much on the existing healthcare infrastructure.

Yulia Tymoshenko's government started a programme to improve health care in 2009 but this was largely emasculated when Viktor Yanukovych's government came into power in 2010.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

So tell me, PeeDee- where did this aneki outfit I've never heard of get THEIR numbers since they don't tell us what their "numerous sources" are?

Sounds kinda like Tailgunner Joe documentation to me.?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 02:18 PM

OK, here is my source...

http://www.aneki.com/death.html

The CIA has politicised their numbers on many subjects for a long time, and the other sources cited probably use CIA data anyway.

Now can we discuss why Russia's Bread Basket is now near the worst place in the World as far as death rates go? Its farm land is legendary and its produce hase fed other parts of Europe for a very long time. What happened?

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 02:15 PM

Mitt Romney's apparently got a new gig as a
Stand-Up Comic

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 01:25 PM

Oops! cut off. Ukraine is 14, Russia is 23, USA is 104 and Canada is 130.
Wikipedia; List of sovereign states and dependent territories by mortality rate.

Subject: RE: BS: Ukraine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 01:22 PM

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/countries-by-highest-death-rate.html