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camden council and banning of music

The Sandman 06 Mar 14 - 04:23 AM
The Sandman 06 Mar 14 - 04:25 AM
GUEST 06 Mar 14 - 04:41 AM
WindhoverWeaver 06 Mar 14 - 05:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Mar 14 - 05:39 AM
Leadfingers 06 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM
Sandy Mc Lean 06 Mar 14 - 10:21 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Richard Mellish 07 Mar 14 - 07:38 AM
GUEST 07 Mar 14 - 07:59 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 07 Mar 14 - 04:01 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 07 Mar 14 - 04:01 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 07 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM
GUEST 07 Mar 14 - 06:21 PM
GUEST 08 Mar 14 - 09:25 AM
Richard Mellish 08 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM
GUEST 08 Mar 14 - 06:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 08 Mar 14 - 08:22 PM
GUEST 08 Mar 14 - 08:27 PM
Mysha 08 Mar 14 - 08:30 PM
GUEST,Ripov 09 Mar 14 - 06:34 PM
Van 09 Mar 14 - 07:17 PM
GUEST 10 Mar 14 - 07:30 AM
Dennis the Elder 10 Mar 14 - 02:24 PM
Richard Bridge 10 Mar 14 - 07:22 PM
Dennis the Elder 10 Mar 14 - 08:12 PM
Betsy 11 Mar 14 - 06:36 AM
GUEST 11 Mar 14 - 08:01 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 11 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM
Uncle_DaveO 11 Mar 14 - 09:57 AM
GUEST 11 Mar 14 - 04:46 PM
Joe Offer 12 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM
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Subject: camden council and banning of music
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:23 AM

I thought I read somewhere that camden council was going to ban unamplified busking in the streets, anyone got further info on this one


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:25 AM

ah found itDay 1 in the High Court finished. A day of complex legal arguments has been finished and one day remains.

Camden's Barrister acknowledged in open court that under this license scheme a person singing to a friend whilst walking down the street would be committing a criminal offence if people started listening to it because it would then be 'providing entertainment in the street'

We've also heard from Camden's Senior Licensing Officer. He submitted evidence to the court that it was 'necessary to license unamplified and unaccompanied singing in the streets because the human voice box is itself a form of amplification.

These ludicrous arguments were made in open court. People need to wake up to what is going on in this country.

I'm genuinely frightened that these arguments are being advanced with a straight face ANYWHERE, let alone the High Court.

You can support our ongoing fundraiser here:

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/keep-streets-live-uk

Please share this post to help us spread awareness of what is going on...
Photo: Day 1 in the High Court finished. A day of complex legal arguments has been finished and one day remains. Camden's Barrister acknowledged in open court that under this license scheme a person singing to a friend whilst walking down the street would be committing a criminal offence if people started listening to it because it would then be 'providing entertainment in the street' We've also heard from Camden's Senior Licensing Officer. He submitted evidence to the court that it was 'necessary to license unamplified and unaccompanied singing in the streets because the human voice box is itself a form of amplification. These ludicrous arguments were made in open court. People need to wake up to what is going on in this country. I'm genuinely frightened that these arguments are being advanced with a straight face ANYWHERE, let alone the High Court. You can support our ongoing fundraiser here: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/keep-streets-live-uk Please share this post to help us spread awareness of what is going on...


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 04:41 AM

camden council worker digging a hole for himself .

what a waste of local council taxpayers money and council officers time , aint they anything worthwhile to do ? sack em I say.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 05:27 AM

"the human voice box is itself a form of amplification"

By the same token, language has a natural cadence that can be represented in musical notation and is thus "singing" so they should also be looking to license talking on the streets!

What a sad, sad thing.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 05:39 AM

camden council worker digging a hole

I thought that is what council workers did?

:D


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 05:42 AM

As GUEST said - What a total waste of Council Funds !


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Mar 14 - 10:21 PM

Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread! This all reflects badly on those who elected the fools unless they in turn rush in to kick the council's arses!


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM

I am somewhat pleased to see that not only North Americans elect idiots.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 07:38 AM

> I am somewhat pleased to see that not only North Americans elect idiots.

The problem is that most of the candidates in an election are politicians. There are such creatures as honest ethical politicians, but few of them get very far.

Not only does all power corrupt, but even the wish to seek power often indicates the start of the corruption.

I have heard that one of the sayings of Muhammad was that the stupidest thing a man can wish for is to be a king.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 07:59 AM

With you all the way, Richard. Reminds me of Paxton's

'Our leaders are the finest men,
So we elect them again and again'


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 04:01 PM

Related thread here:

Camden Council Criminalise Busking

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=152839


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 04:01 PM

Related thread here:

Camden Council Criminalise Busking

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=152839


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 04:06 PM

Sorry for the echo

Sorry for the echo

I have no idea how that happened

I have no idea how that happened


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM

Nor I.

Nor I.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Mar 14 - 06:21 PM

Welcome to the wonderful world of Cecil Sharp House.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 09:25 AM

Also the wonderful world of The British Library, Euston Station, The Roundhouse, branches of Sainsburys, some dodgy massage parlours and quite a few other things.

Not to mention a lot of ordinary people who voted for the council.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM

Any news yet of the decision?

If the law stays, it could be course be enforced selectively, like many other laws. If applied strictly, however, it would apparently criminalise not only "singing to a friend whilst walking down the street" as quoted above but even singing or whistling to oneself.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 06:09 PM

Or even breaking wind.
There is, on the other hand, the little question of Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the salient part of which reads, "Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers."
That has Constitutional status, superior to National Law, let alone Council ByeLaws.
The enacting legislation, The Humans Rights Act 1998, contains the following provisions:

Article 3 Interpretation of legislation.
   (1)So far as it is possible to do so, primary legislation and subordinate legislation must be read and given effect in a way which is compatible with the Convention rights.
   (2)This section—
       (a)applies to primary legislation and subordinate legislation whenever enacted;
...
6 Acts of public authorities.
   (1)It is unlawful for a public authority to act in a way which is incompatible with a Convention right.
   (2)Subsection (1) does not apply to an act if—
      (a)as the result of one or more provisions of primary legislation, the authority could not have acted differently; or
      (b)in the case of one or more provisions of, or made under, primary legislation which cannot be read or given effect in a way which is compatible with the Convention rights, the authority was acting so as to give effect to or enforce those provisions.
   (3)In this section "public authority" includes—
      (a)a court or tribunal, and
      (b)any person certain of whose functions are functions of a public nature,
    but does not include either House of Parliament or a person exercising functions in connection with proceedings in Parliament.
...
   (6)"An act" includes a failure to act but does not include a failure to—
      (a)introduce in, or lay before, Parliament a proposal for legislation; or
      (b)make any primary legislation or remedial order.

Article 7 contains details about time limits and ways of going about complaining. It's too long to post here, click the link. Perhaps CSH should step in. It's worth reading the next Articles too

We now come to the num of the matter:

Article 12 Freedom of expression.
   (1)This section applies if a court is considering whether to grant any relief which, if granted, might affect the exercise of the Convention right to freedom of expression.
   (2)If the person against whom the application for relief is made ("the respondent") is neither present nor represented, no such relief is to be granted unless the court is satisfied—
      (a)that the applicant has taken all practicable steps to notify the respondent; or
      (b)that there are compelling reasons why the respondent should not be notified.
   (3)No such relief is to be granted so as to restrain publication before trial unless the court is satisfied that the applicant is likely to establish that publication should not be allowed.
   (4)The court must have particular regard to the importance of the Convention right to freedom of expression and, where the proceedings relate to material which the respondent claims, or which appears to the court, to be journalistic, literary or artistic material (or to conduct connected with such material), to—
      (a)the extent to which—
         (i)the material has, or is about to, become available to the public; or
         (ii)it is, or would be, in the public interest for the material to be published;
      (b)any relevant privacy code.
   (5)In this section—
      "court" includes a tribunal; and
      "relief" includes any remedy or order (other than in criminal proceedings).
...

This is primordial. "Relief" means the exact opposite of what you might think, it actually means "Law". Anyone who thinks they may be affected by this must write IMMEDIATELY to the Court drawing their attention to these provisions, taking it by hand to the Clerk of the Court and requiring him to sign a copy of the document as proof of receipt.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 08:22 PM

And the Zoo is just round the corner. Maybe the Monkey House could supply some better local representatives.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 08:27 PM

Ask Kurt about that.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Mysha
Date: 08 Mar 14 - 08:30 PM

Hi,

I see a problem when I'm practising a song while outside. Now, humming a ditty because of the fine weather could still be argued to be an expression of one's opinion about the weather. But can I get away with claiming that practising is an expression of one's opinion on one's grasp of the song?

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST,Ripov
Date: 09 Mar 14 - 06:34 PM

just as well this lady doesn't live in camden then!


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Van
Date: 09 Mar 14 - 07:17 PM

What happens if you fart in the key of F. Worse if it's amplified, worse still if you follow through. How many many fines?


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Mar 14 - 07:30 AM

Songs are an expression of opinion in the way we perform them. TomAto, TOmato...Camden Council is acting illegally and must be told to cease and desist immediately. If it wishes to target particular types of busker, let it do so legally. Perhaps in the mean time it's time to ask the Musician's Union to declare as strike against the Council for an entire week, close every venue down and picket the discos and see what that does: after all, they can't ask us to Keep Music Live and allow this to happen, surely?


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 10 Mar 14 - 02:24 PM

Please, what was the result of the Court Case?


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Mar 14 - 07:22 PM

Judgment is due in the morning - https://www.facebook.com/JonnySongs


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 10 Mar 14 - 08:12 PM

Thanks Richard


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Betsy
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 06:36 AM

I can apprecioate that I may be a little provocative, but could anyone provide the ethnic background to the people / group(s) who are promoting this ridiculous ban.
I wonder if they'd like to ban the Notting Hill Carnival . Where does it all start / stop.
I DO appreciate that there are people with very little musical competence perhaps combined with lifestyle / social problems who can constitute a nuisanceby using an instument as a form of scrounging / begging, but blanket bans are throwing the baby out with the water.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 08:01 AM

Case lost, sad to say.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

The text to Guest's link is below, in case that page goes west. Provocative or not (and that always depends on who the provacatee is) I think Betsy's points are spot on.


Council fights off High Court bid to derail busking licensing scheme - Tuesday, 11 March 2014 11:10

The London Borough of Camden has successfully fought off a High Court challenge to its proposed regime for the licensing of busking. Following a two-day hearing last month, Mrs Justice Patterson has now ruled that the introduction of the scheme was lawful.The judge said:

"The defendant [the council] has adopted a policy which, in my judgement, is both necessary and a proportionate response to the issue of busking.

"It has striven to introduce a policy which holds the ring between promoting economic growth through fostering dynamic busking activity across the borough but balancing that with the requirements of its residents and other economic activity which contributes to the well being of Camden. It has done so in a way which, in my judgement, is lawful."

The Keep Streets Live Campaign, which brought the challenge, has already said it plans to take the case to the Court of Appeal.
The key features of the policy – adopted last November by Camden under Part V of the Local Authorities Act 2000 – were:

It will apply to the whole of Camden and to the provision of all entertainment in a street within the borough;
Standards will be set through a voluntary Code of Conduct with which all buskers are expected to comply;
Where the entertainment includes music or the use of amplifiers, a busking licence will be required – except where the entertainment falls within a class of entertainment which is excluded from this requirement;
Two types of licence can be issued: a standard busking licence and a special busking licence;

The standard licence will be subject to the council's standard conditions. "These conditions include restrictions in respect of permitted times of 10 am to 9 pm, certain types of instruments such as drums and wind instruments, and amplification. Standard licences can only be used by solo or duo performers";
A special busking licence will be required for busking within Camden where a performer seeks to amend or vary the conditions.
The lawyers for the Keep Streets Live Campaign, Leigh Day, had claimed that the definition of busking in Camden's scheme was not sufficiently clear.
They also argued that there was insufficient evidence to cross the threshold in s. 33(2) of the 2000 Act.

Rosa Curling, a lawyer in the Human Rights team at Leigh Day, who is representing Keep Streets Live Campaign said: "We will now seek permission to take this decision to the Court of Appeal. The council's draconian licensing policy is unnecessary, unlawful and threatens the very essence of what makes Camden such an important cultural space."

Jonny Walker, Founding Director of Keep Streets Live Campaign Limited, said: "We continue to believe that the scheme proposed by the council is too wide in its definition of busking and that it has been introduced in response to inadequate evidence to apply across the entire geographical area of the borough."

He added: "We also remain firm in the belief that it is disproportionate for the purposes of the Human Rights Act by interfering with the right to freedom of expression. "Informal and spontaneous performances of music are a vital part of Camden's rich and diverse cultural heritage and need to be protected."


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 09:57 AM

"Standards will be set through a voluntary Code of Conduct with which all buskers are expected to comply;

Someone doesn't know (or perhaps care) what it is to be consistent. If "all buskers are expected to comply", it's hardly "voluntary", is it?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Mar 14 - 04:46 PM

Let's put it this way, Camden just wiped itself off the face of the earth for those who hope it'll become the next Dalston. They just crushed the butterfly.


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Subject: RE: camden council and banning of music
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM

BBC has a good title for its piece on this: Could kazoos be banished from Camden Town?


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