20 Button Concertina

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:53 AM

"the accompaniment Bellamy put to songs like Death is not the end..."

Thanks for posting that, Phil. You've found an arrangement that the OP could play on his existing instrument - in fact I don't think PB's fingers ever move from the home row. So, OK, you could play some (though not of all) of PB's accompaniments on 20 buttons.

Fan of Peter though I always was, that accompaniment demonstrates to me exactly the limitations of sticking to the home row. Assuming for the moment that you're in C (the recording seems to be in D so is presumably played on a D box, and who knows how many buttons it had), all the home buttons (CGCEG) give versions of a C chord on the push, whereas on the pull you have GBDFA. So the bottom three buttons on the pull give you a full and plummy G chord, the top two a lightweight F chord, the top three a Dm, and other combinations create varying degrees of unpleasantness. On 'Death' you can hear how thin the IV chord sounds compared to the V.

If I were accompanying that song, I'd not play the melody, I'd get rid of a lot of the bellows movement and chord changes (possibly using duplicated notes as Richard Mellish described early in the thread), and maybe try out an alternative chord or two. But that's what I would do. What Peter did was what Peter did (though 'Death' is one of his less sophisticated accompaniments) and, as Howard said, it shouldn't have worked but it did.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,SqueezeMe
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM

Goran, my observation was made not from superstition, but from experience garnered from nearly 40 years of playing and repairing. But you are correct in that there is a lot of superstition surrounding concertinas, although the more common term for it is BS.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Guran
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:17 AM

SqueezeMe, I did not oppose to your observation itself: "Most, if not all the hybrids have a riveted action" and you may have a better total view of those hybrids than I.
The superstitious hazards arise when drawing quality conclusions from the type of lever/post connection per se since there are so many factors involved determining how the whole action system from pad to button works firstly for music performance - but also mechanically and for processing/assemblage and for service requirements.

What is the advantage with a riveted action in your view, just curious to hear?

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:25 AM

Dick, your experience is very different from mine.   Most 26-keys I've come across (my own included) have been bog-standard middle-of-the-range Lachenals, which weren't built to the highest standards in the first place and inevitably show signs of wear and tear after a decades of use.

There has been extensive discussion on concertina.net and The Session of the differences between modern hybrids and vintage instruments, and the overwhelming body of opinion is that the hybrids are better value and better quality than equivalently-priced vintage instruments. There are also players who have reached a high standard of playing who are very happy with their hybrid instruments and see no need to upgrade to a traditionally-made one.

Here's just one example, from Gav Davenport in this discussion on c.net comparing Tedrow and Edgeley concertinas:

"In general either box would be better than a bog standard lachenal in terms of developing your own playing."

I find it speaks volumes that a professional player is happy to play hybrid instruments. He's not the only one - Jody Kruskal plays a Morse along with his Jeffries and Dipper concertinas.

The fact is that you get what you pay for. Even the highest quality vintage instruments show their age, even if expertly restored. You can probably get a bog-standard Lachenal for less than a new hybrid - it will have concertina reeds if that's what you value, but an inferior action. A modern hybrid will be in better shape than most vintage instruments you are likely to find in a similar price range, and the question is whether you are happy with the sound of accordion reeds. You will have to pay considerably more to find a traditionally-made instrument in comparable condition.

This doesn't make it easy to decide what to get. For a given price range there are many compromises to be made in terms of sound, playability and speed of response, and indeed the number of buttons. There is no right answer, it depends on the individual player's preferences and, importantly, what is available to buy.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:40 AM

Brian - it's getting off-topic, but this is fascinating stuff for me. Coming to this cold, it had never occurred to me that what PB was doing on that song was basically a I/IV/V job with added melody. I briefly tried to duplicate what his accompaniment sounded like on EC; I ended up with relative minors & added passing chords all over the place, & it still didn't sound nearly busy enough.

Time to stop trying to follow what a gifted but eccentric player of a different instrument came up with, I guess, & start from scratch. Although, in the case of that song, scratch is a rather forbidding place, given that the whole first line (which in up/down notation goes *UUDUUDDDUUUDDD) is on one chord.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:45 AM

Since Howard has mentioned Edgeley concertinas, can I remind our OP Matthew - if he's still watching and hasn't completely lost the will to live - that these instruments are made in his home town. Edgeley's website displays both hybrids and traditional concertina-reeded models. I played one of Frank's hybrids a few years ago, and it seemed very good.

I've also been impressed by Morses, but there might be import duty to pay in that case. Of course we still don't know Matthew's budget, and these instruments may be out of his reach. Which is why I suggested that he contact someone like Robin Harrison if he's thinking of buying second-hand.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 09:53 AM

"the whole first line is on one chord"

Not such a problem for an EC system player, surely? You run out of air, you just reverse, and the chord stays the same. As Alan Day said, this is much more of a problem with an anglo, where you either play lots of in-and-out chords like PB, or use duplicate buttons and other wheezes to keep the air supply going.

Not wishing to nitpick, but PB's 'Death' arrangement is more a case of the chords following the melody than the other way round.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: johncharles
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:25 PM

An interesting discussion. It may be worth mentioning, as Mathew seems to imply he wishes to accompany his singing, that more buttons may be helpful, but the real gain will be from practice and increased skill. I find poorly played concertina accompaniments (not uncommon) rather like nails scraping down a black/white/green/-board.
john

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Guest, Gus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 12:54 PM

Not such a problem for an EC system player, surely? You run out of air, you just reverse.
You run out of air you have to reverse, or alternatively use an air button while playing.
Why not ask old grumpy GSS.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:13 PM

Not such a problem for an EC system player, surely? You run out of air, you just reverse, and the chord stays the same.

The problem is that holding an A chord for four and a half bars would sound awful, particularly when you then switch to E for two bars before going straight back to A. When I first picked up a guitar*, learning chords didn't bothered me, but the stuff baffled me completely - all the extra stuff guitarists put in to stop it coming out as chung, chung, chung. Concertina stuff still baffles me - stuff on a single chord most of all.

Not wishing to nitpick, but PB's 'Death' arrangement is more a case of the chords following the melody than the other way round.

Nitpick away - my musical knowledge is about 90% theoretical and 10% intuitive, although I'm working on redressing the balance. What is the blighter playing on the LH, then, if it's not a three chord trick?

*I put it down soon afterwards.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Baffled of Basingstoke
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:27 PM

Not such a problem for an EC system player, surely? You run out of air, you just reverse, and the chord stays the same.

The problem is that holding an A chord for four and a half bars would sound awful.
Too right, have a listen to Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Guest Dick Miles
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:34 PM

Since I have been summoned, I could tell you, but why should i?
anyone who genuinely wants to know can contact me privately.
Brian Peters illustrates his complete non understanding of song accompaniment on the EC, he plays the Anglo well, but clearly knows freck all about the EC.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:18 PM

OK Dick, I promise to stick to the anglo and say no more about the EC.

At the risk of boring any Bellamophobes out there, Phil's questions about 'Death is not the End' are actually very interesting (and, the more I listen to some of PB's music with a concertina in my hand, the more I realise I didn't understand his stuff as well as I thought).

I've just got my Crabb out and tried the song; D isn't a good key on my C/G (by no means impossible, but limited and thin-sounding), so let's put everything into C, including my analysis of PB's arrangement, which sounds as though it's in D, but isn't in concert pitch - could it be an old pitch C instrument?

Here's what PB does - I said the chords are following the tune because, every time the bellows reverse to accommodate his playing the melody on the right hand, a chord change is forced on him, so he chooses C on the push and either G or F on the pull (so, yes, he's using the three-chord trick):

C    G      C            F      C   G C
When you're sad and when you're lonely

C   G   C F   C    G C
And you cannot find a friend

C    F C G   C    F       C   G   C
Just remember that death is not the end


Here's what I would do, not trying to play the melody, but just changing chord within the I, IV and V when I feel like it:

C    G      C            F      C
When you're sad and when you're lonely

G       C      C    G C
And you cannot find a friend

C    [F]G          F       G       C
Just remember that death is not the end

I were trying to make it a bit more interesting, I would substitute an Am for the C on 'friend', and maybe do some other stuff. That's just my take on it - Peter's was different, and so would another musician's be. But does that make it any clearer?

As to playing a single sustained chord under the whole first line, this could work if the chord was a nice stark one without the third note, but I would probably only use that for the first verse of an arrangement that then built up to more varied chording over subsequent verses.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:23 PM

Oh dear, that didn't work: the spacings are different when it uploads to the way they are in the composition window, so none of the chords line up. Use your imagination or paste it into Word and add some extra spaces.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:17 PM

Here's possibly my favourite Bellamy accompaniment (excepting possibly 'My Boy Jack'), from the magnificent 'Both Sides Then' album, which is still available from Topic. As far as I can make out he's playing in F on a Bb/F box (slightly above concert pitch) with the left hand crossing all three rows to get those chords and discords.

The Trees They Grow High

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Somewhere near East Cheam
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM

Bellamy had a wonderful grasp of harmony,smashing track, Peters old chap

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,SqueezeMe
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:25 AM

Absolutely agree.


Brian, you have made no mention of the drone levers that Peter used. There has been some discussion on concertina.net about this, but not a lot of explanation as to the notes sounded. This may also explain some of his unusual chording.

Would you, or anyone else care to comment???

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,guest doubting thomas
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:05 AM

no

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:18 AM

SqueezeMe - I did mention the drones in my first post, but, to elaborate a bit:

I remember Peter showing me one (or possibly even two - it was a long time ago) button in the middle of the LH third (top) row, which was tuned to a drone and had a small metal plate that could be swivelled over to hold it down for the duration of a song. A drone is more usually fitted under the left thumb, but holding that down for several minutes is hard work.

Peter's drone was simply that of the instrument's home key - a C on a C instrument, etc. The unusual chording came because he would add harmonies to it, usually but not always from the I, IV, V chord palette. The more unusual chording came about when he would sound a V chord against the drone so, in the key of C, you would be hearing G, D and C notes together, making an edgy, clashing sound (can Phil tell us what that's called?).

Some of the strangest sounding accompaniments were on songs that already had unusual melodies. 'Streets of Derry' is played against a simple, home key drone, but the nature of the melody is such that a lot of it ends up on the pull, with plenty of opportunity for clashes against the drone. Incidentally, listening to this track carefully, I'm struck by the number of little ornaments Peter puts into the accompaniment.

On 'Housecarpenter' (both these tracks are on 'Both Sides Then'), he's not only playing a drone, but he's accompanying a F mixolydian melody in the key of Bb, so none of the chords are the ones you'd normally expect. With the Bb drone added, it sounds incredibly eerie, fittingly for a ghostly story. Martin Carthy used to do the same kind of thing on guitar - he called it 'cross-tuning' - the two were good pals so perhaps they compared notes.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM

Just to clarify, Brian, was the home-key drone the same on push and pull?

in the key of C, you would be hearing G, D and C notes together, making an edgy, clashing sound (can Phil tell us what that's called?).

Thumbing through my I Spy Book of Chords... G/C/D is a Gsus4, which usually sounds 'edgy' - it's just asking to resolve back to G/B/D*. If he was playing the full G chord, OTOH, you'd have G/B/C/D, which is dissonant - although you could also think of it as an inverted C maj 9 (C/E/G/B/D) with the E missing...

he's accompanying a F mixolydian melody in the key of Bb, so none of the chords are the ones you'd normally expect

Possibly because he didn't realise it was Fmix? It sounds as if there were a lot of happy accidents in PB's arrangements, and maybe this was another.

*Not always. The refrain of Radiohead's No Surprises modulates from an A to an Asus4, with the kind of 'release' effect that you usually get from going the other way. Mind you, it then resolves onto the home key of D, so you could say that it's actually going from A to an inverted Dsus2 & from there back to D.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,SqueezeMe
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Brian. I missed the reference in your first post, lost amongst....hmmm.

A good explanation, and much appreciated by me, if not by Guest doubting thomas, above.... :-(

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:09 AM

Phil - yes, the drone is the same both ways.

Thanks for the chord explanations. The way PB used that sus4 was IMO purely to create tension, and I don't think he would normally have resolved it. On 'Streets of Derry' he ends each verse with a clash. Also, he would not have added a B to that GCD combo. I usually leave out the thirds when chording on a concertina, particularly on modal songs but in most folk stuff too, and that seems to have been PB's policy.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Brian Peters
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:19 AM

"Possibly because he didn't realise it was Fmix? It sounds as if there were a lot of happy accidents in PB's arrangements, and maybe this was another."

Some of those old modal ballad tunes are hard to pigeon-hole, even by a scholar like Bertrand Bronson. Different people hear them differently. As to Peter, while I suspect that some of his weird chords were developed by experiment rather than theory, I'm pretty sure he used them with a lot of discrimination.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:41 AM

As to Peter, while I suspect that some of his weird chords were developed by experiment rather than theory, I'm pretty sure he used them with a lot of discrimination.

Absolutely. 'Happy accident' wasn't meant to suggest that he stumbled on those chords on the morning of the recording session - I know that PB listened hard to what he was doing, & played what he played because it worked.

I usually leave out the thirds when chording on a concertina

That's really interesting. Perhaps it's because most of the triads are so easy on an EC, but it had never occurred to me to do this.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Duelling Duet
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:58 AM

Phil, you should listen to Dick Miles, my impression is that he uses thirds, and also leaves them out, to my ears, he seems to use a lot of 2 note dyads.
       He is someone who uses a 48 key treble, I think he has written a book on song accompaniment on the EC.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Guest Dick Miles
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:17 AM

duelling duet.
Much depends on the mode of the tune.I do use thirds sometimes, and sometimes I play two notes of a chord the first and fifth, without the third, sometimes i play the first note[for example if it is a whole beat crotchet and add a note a third below for half a beat].Sometimes, Sometimes.
I do not agree with GENERALLY for anything, my approach is entirely dependent on the tune, although ON OCCASIONS I leave out the third, dependent on mood, sometimes using the third can establish it as being minor is appropriate because it gives a sadder feel.
leaving out the third means it is unclear if it is major or minor, sometimes that is appropriate sometimes it is not.
Incidentally the third not is the most out of tune note on equal tempered instruments such as theEC, the interval of a fifth is the interval that is least out of tune.my song accompaniment books are available from my website.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:26 AM

Dick Miles? Never heard of him, I say I've NEVER HEARD OF HIM. ONLY kidding - I like Dick's playing & should probably listen to it more closely. I actually haven't listened much to anyone else since I took up the EC myself.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 07:59 AM

I think Bellamy understood about modes, he sang with young tradition, and was very experienced as regards hearing harmony.
here are some ec players Iwould recomend for song accompaniment, all different, killen, turner, barber, clinging, kendrick, alf edwards,lea nicholson, pete wood. also listen to anglo players like Brian, and peter bellamy, much can be learned from listening to other systems of concertinas, even if it cant always be used.
here is a tip, For playing tunes like morris tunes reverse bellows more frequently, and avoid running notes into one another

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 08:43 AM

One of the reasons that I like playing in octaves is that it makes more sense of splitting the notes of the chords over a wider range. If you play three note chords on the concertina they sound better if you spread the three notes over two octaves rather than one. This is to do with the way that the harmonics of concertina reeds can clash with harmonics from another note. It is fascinating to look at a computer screen showing just how many different harmonics are in operation from a single note. I have a friend who goes round collecting data from different concertinas as he is trying to make some scientific sense of why concertina reeds, accordion reeds and hydrid reeds act differently!

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

As I recall there were two 'clips' on Peter Bellamy's concertina, but I'm not sure on which notes.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST, Mystified
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:36 AM

I have a friend who goes round collecting data from different concertinas as he is trying to make some scientific sense of why concertina reeds, accordion reeds and hydrid reeds act differently!      
A better use of ones time than train spotting.
are Octaves easy on Duet and English?, but Octaves are not chords, Black Belt could you clarify your comments.

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 01:23 PM

It is not so easy to play a tune continually whilst playing two notes an octave apart on the Englich as it is on the Anglo because of the distance that the fingers have to move on both sides of the English between notes. Having said that please note that this is one of exercises in the original Wheatstone tutor book for the English.
Because I am nearly always playing two notes an octave apart It means that I tend to use other notes from a wider range to make up a chord of three or four notes, thus the tendency to have notes that are more distant in pitch from each other and less likely to generate beat frequencies between harmonics.
Returning to the computer analysis displays it is possible to have a harmonic on some notes that is actually louder than the fundamental note. You do not notice this as there are other harmonics, at the octaves, that override it.
Having spent some years doing the Tidal Predictions for the Hydrographic Office it all looks rather familiar!

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,anglo enquirer
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:12 PM

do you play straight up and down your G row and C row?

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:31 PM

I started out by playing along the rows but have developed into a style that crosses the rows. As a result I play Irish music on the D/G rather than the C/G.
Part of the fun is finding odd chords!

Subject: RE: 20 Button Concertina
From: GUEST,concertina player
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:09 PM

Wheastones instructions, a book designed to put anyone off enjoying the concertina, talk about boring.