Origins: Johnny Doyle

Subject: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:47 AM

Does anyone know the author of the song "Johnny Doyle"? ("You men of Dan O'Connell's race, Pray pay attention to my ditty…." – not the other song in the DT)

The lyrics are on a Dubliners' lyric site as "trad". They are also on Donal Maguire's site but unattributed although I'm sure I heard him introduce it once and attribute it to an author from about the 1960s; which would seem right as I learned it from Frank Jeal in about 1969. When I sang it last night someone asked about its origins and I'd like to be able to give due credit to the author if known.

Thanks in advance for any info.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 08:01 AM

It was written, incongruously enough, by the Irish film censor. If memory recalls aright, he was called Jimmy Murphy. The song is in Padraic O'Lochlain's More Irish Street Ballads, where the author is identified.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 10:09 AM

Many thanks for the rapid response.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 06:22 PM

Nearly there, Fred! The author's name was Jimmy Montgomery - and he was, indeed, the Irish Film Censor. It's in O'Lochlainn's "More Irish Street Ballads".

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:08 PM

Nearly there, Fred. It's Colm Ó Lochlainn.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:11 PM

James Montgomery was indeed the first Film Censor of the Irish Republic; he said that he took the Ten Commandments as his guide in making his decisions. He had a strong aversion to cinematic displays of kissing or dancing, so that some films were so severely cut as to render them utterly incomprehensible. You can read about some of his thoughts here:- Irish Film Censorship

"When Moses from Mount Sinai descended,
He bore commandments ten in number;
Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God,
And thou shalt not dance the rumba.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife,
Nor his asses, slaves or lodgers;
Thou shalt not care for Fred Astaire,
Or view the legs of Ginger Rogers."

Matthew

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,Gealt
Date: 19 Mar 14 - 07:31 PM

Montgomery also said that his censor's job caught him 'between the devil and the Holy See'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:55 AM

I thought I was losing it for a minute - 'Johnny Doyle' isn't listed in 'More Irish Street Ballads'
A plod through all the entries reveals that it is listed as 'George's Quay or The Forgetful Sailor' and starts "Ye sons of Dan O'Connell's Guard".
I remember once hearing it introduced as a parody of a Child ballad - if anybody knows which one it would solve a life-long mystery.
"Montgomery also said that his censor's job caught him 'between the devil and the Holy See'."
There was a wonderful television programme on the history of Irish film censorship a few weeks ago which showed how it managed to re-write the ending of 'Casablanca' - makes the scissor-wielding priest in 'Cinema Paradiso' look like a soft-pedaling liberal do-gooder!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:12 AM

Luke Cheevers of Ringsend, of course, does a wonderful take on this one!

Regards

p.s. Whatever about Child (Haveth Childer Everywhere?), the cross-dressing may have movie origins rather than "The Handsome Cabin Boy"?!

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:27 AM

Thanks to all for the information and corrections. I'll be sure to give credit where credit's due the next time I sing it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 11:20 AM

Will Martin Ryan and Lunatic stop taking the piss! I am up to my oxters at the moment with the North West Euro elections and trying to stop our local Loonytoon fascist MEP from being re-elected. So the info was purely off the top of my head and straight out of what I could remember. At my age, and with the number of burnt out grey cells I've got, it's a wonder I could remember that much.

Remember what much? There your are. See what I mean.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 01:56 PM

Don't think anybody is "taking the piss" - just trying to help the o.p. with his query.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 16 - 06:17 AM

The film censor's name who wrote this was Jimmy Montgomery, not Jimmy Doyle as suggested earlier.

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 17 - 06:00 AM

Anytime I've heard this song sung there is an extra verse at the end which isn't included in Ó Lochlainn or in Frank Harte's Songs of Dublin;

And now their family numbers ten and Mary's heart sings lke a linnet
For Johnny's tamed that wild young buck that stretched her patience to the limit
They're happy now in sweet Ringsend no more they'll sail for foreign waters
For Johnny Doyle his hands are full, with five strong and five sweet daughters

Any idea where this verse originated?

All the best,

Ian

Subject: RE: Origins: Johnny Doyle
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 29 Jun 17 - 03:03 AM

Two names come into my head - Luke Cheevers, mentioned earlier - and Liam Weldon. I should be able to confirm rhe culprit over the next week as I head to Miltown Malbay!

Regards