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Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions

GUEST,Jim Causley 20 Mar 14 - 05:39 AM
Jack Campin 20 Mar 14 - 05:55 AM
Brian Peters 20 Mar 14 - 06:01 AM
Les in Chorlton 20 Mar 14 - 06:13 AM
GUEST 20 Mar 14 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Jim Causley 20 Mar 14 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,Jim Causley 20 Mar 14 - 06:32 AM
Jack Campin 20 Mar 14 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,OldNicKilby 20 Mar 14 - 08:16 AM
Steve Gardham 20 Mar 14 - 02:36 PM
Steve Gardham 20 Mar 14 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Bill Brewer 20 Mar 14 - 05:01 PM
zozimus 20 Mar 14 - 08:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Mar 14 - 10:58 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Mar 14 - 03:13 AM
GUEST,OldNicKilby 21 Mar 14 - 06:10 AM
Les in Chorlton 21 Mar 14 - 06:38 AM
Steve Gardham 21 Mar 14 - 02:39 PM
Les in Chorlton 21 Mar 14 - 03:02 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Mar 14 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,does it matter 21 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM
Steve Gardham 21 Mar 14 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,really 21 Mar 14 - 09:06 PM
MGM·Lion 22 Mar 14 - 12:44 AM
GUEST,Devils Advocate 22 Mar 14 - 06:34 AM
Les in Chorlton 22 Mar 14 - 06:58 AM
MGM·Lion 22 Mar 14 - 07:05 AM
GUEST 22 Mar 14 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 22 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM
Steve Gardham 22 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM
GUEST,Devils Advocate, not devils advocaat 22 Mar 14 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 22 Mar 14 - 08:06 AM
GUEST,Dick Miles 22 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM
Les in Chorlton 22 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM
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Subject: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Jim Causley
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:39 AM

Recently had a mini epiphany! I've always had a nack at detecting the songs Baring-Gould made up vs the ones he actually collected - God love 'im! His handcrafted lyrics are easy to spot but tunes less so. (Could be his mate William Bussell's efforts?) Anyhow, for a wee while now i've been spotting a similarity in several tunes for well known songs that have particularly unusual, modal melodies and three I would definitely highlight as original compositions from 'Songs of the West' would be the 'Midsummer Carol' (Leman Day), 'Georgie' (or Geordie) and 'Where Are You Going To My Pretty Maid' (now known as the popular "Cornish" dance tune 'Delyo Syvy') and several more I could list such as 'Dead Maid's Land', 'The Little Blue Flame', 'Kitty Alone' etc. I feel there was a particular flavour of melody which Baring-Gould felt was missing from the repertoire he was collecting and wanted to make the songs from the region he was proud of stand out from the rest of the British Isles. He did a grand job albeit with a large slice of "poetic licence"!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:55 AM

How do you know? Is it just that these tunes don't turn up from any independent sources, or can you pinpoint where and when he wrote them?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:01 AM

Hi Jim!
I've looked at a lot of 'Georgie' versions, and that one does look like a very unusual tune to me. I'll look at the others when I've got a minute. Have you spoken to Martin G about it yet?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:13 AM

Rumour has it that Bert Lloyd was his unacknowleged love child


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:23 AM

That is very funny Les but not helpful!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Jim Causley
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:29 AM

I haven't chatted to Martin about this yet no athough what got me started was when chatting to guitartist Pete Berryman who plays the tune Delyo Syvy. I commented that it put me in mind of a few Baring-Gould song tunes and he said "that's no coincidence as Delyo Syvy is actually a Cornish set of lyrics that had no melody and were put to a tune of a song that Baring-Gould "collected" in Launceston called 'Where are you going to my pretty maid'. And that got me on the scent of other Baring-Gould tunes which is felt were related or similar


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Jim Causley
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 06:32 AM

I'm sorry i should have said that Delyo Syvy has now become an independant session tune in it's own right in Cornwall but it's origins are very interesting. Quite possibly written by a Devonian rector!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 07:39 AM

It's much like a mazurka or hanter-dro, isn't it? and Baring-Gould had lived in France for a long time. Actual or imitation French tune?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:16 AM

Lived in France for "A long time"? Perhaps for a short time when he was quite young and wrote "In Troubadour Land". It is easy to spot his words if you study his Field Note Books. My favourite is "Old Adam" with the appalling rhyme of His'n and Prison. Tune is, I think, Cosher No I am not going to get involved in the discussion of who sings the "right" tune , Me/Us or Martin and Sian


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 02:36 PM

Hi, Jim
I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable with the music side but I have proof he sent his own lyric compositions to Child claiming them as from tradition. I've long suspected Dead Maid's Land was one of them.

See the latest thread by Richie on Child Ballads in America.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 03:25 PM

Jim,
If you want to look at my paper on Baring Gould's concoction of Child 295B The Brown Girl, it is published in Folk Song: Tradition, Revival, and Re-Creation, Russell and Atkinson, Chapter 28, but if you go to The Full English and enter Child 295 you will be able to see all the proof you need with your own eyes. On the left hand page is BG's hand-written copy of 295A and on the right hand page and following are what Woodridge actually sang which is a straight version of 'The Sailor from Dover' called 'Pretty Dorothy' along with fragments from another singer. What he sent to Child is cobbled together from bits of both ballads which are not in any way related.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Bill Brewer
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 05:01 PM

Does it matter?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: zozimus
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 08:08 PM

Interesting that OldNicKilby should mention rhyming "His'n with Prison above. I always thought that only occurred in "High Noon"(Do not forsake Me,oh My Darlng)
"He just got out of the State Prison
He said it's gonna be my life or his'n"


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 14 - 10:58 PM

His'n and prison is a perfectly good rhyme. Most famously used I suppose not in a Baring-Gould song but in the Ballad of High Noon

He made a vow while in State Prison
Vowed it would be my life or his'n.


I don't suppose that when Ned Washington wrote the words he'd been listening to Baring-Gould songs. But who knows?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:13 AM

Does it matter........

When historians tell us that certain artefacts are medieval and 'of the folk' when they are really 18th century imitations or even their own invention....

When someone tries to pass off a replica of a work of art as an original.......

When propagandists deliberately distort history for their personal ends.......

When Cecil Sharp tells us that folk songs were produced by peasantry going back into the mists of time, when actually he is well aware that most were produced by sophisticated songwriters and broadside hacks only a century earlier......

When politicians try to pass off their opinions as facts.....

When the Met shred all their records of their investigations into the Lawrence Family........etc.?

When first we practice to deceive...........


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:10 AM

Where is the S B G Guru? Come on Martin join in with your Two pennorth


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 06:38 AM

But who was Bert's mum?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 02:39 PM

Ruth Tongue?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:02 PM

This Ruth Tongue?

Sounds plausible Steve


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:35 PM

That's the one, Les. a.k.a 'In Cheek'


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,does it matter
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:59 PM

Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 03:13 AM

Does it matter........

When historians tell us that certain artefacts are medieval and 'of the folk' when they are really 18th century imitations or even their own invention....

When someone tries to pass off a replica of a work of art as an original.......

When propagandists deliberately distort history for their personal ends.......

When Cecil Sharp tells us that folk songs were produced by peasantry going back into the mists of time, when actually he is well aware that most were produced by sophisticated songwriters and broadside hacks only a century earlier......

When politicians try to pass off their opinions as facts.....

When the Met shred all their records of their investigations into the Lawrence Family........etc.?

When first we practice to deceive
practise, Steve, practice used as a verb is unscholarly, all your different statements have different answers.
1. History has always been propoganda and has always been distorted.
2. if it fools us it merely shows how good the fake is, it does not matter at all if it is a good work,it exposes the snobbery attached to names in art, and the snobbery attached to something being traditional or by Baring Gould, everything that is traditional was in its original form written by someone, so why does it matter it is either a song worth singing or not worth singing.
3 Cecil Sharp, we can work out for ourselves that he had an agenda , so it is not important.
4.It has always happened so you learn to question everything, so not important
5. it just shows politicians in their true colors.
6.now that is more important, but does not surprise me., the Police are there to protect the very wealthy and cover up for themselves.
7. Is that a royal we, I am always honest, but I put more or less importance to different of your questions
   go and make music and forget this attempt on your part to justify scholarly trivia.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 04:37 PM

Guest d.i.m.
Being 'scholarly' about folk song is just as valid as playing/singing. Personally I enjoy the best of both worlds. You mention 'snobbery'; your inverted snobbery against people who like to study the subject is telling!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,really
Date: 21 Mar 14 - 09:06 PM

Inverted Snobbery?. Bull.
I think Baring Goulds' songs should be judged on their merits, whether they are traditional or written by Baring Gould, people will either want to sing them or they will not, nobody judges a contemporary folk song on who wrote it, this whole thing that some scholars have about did some collector write such and such is trivial, and could be interpreted as an attempt to denigrate a collectors reputation the songs[be they traditional or written by a collector or a modern day songwriter] are there to be sung, if they are no good they will be forgotten, end of story.
I noticed before that you were one of the Lloyd critics.
Sabine Baring Gould, and Bert Lloyd should be thanked, not sneered at.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 12:44 AM

I don't think anybody is 'sneering', GUEST,really. They are truth-seeking in the interests of scholarly accuracy and reasoned evaluation. It is arguable that the undoubtedly valuable contributions of Baring-Gould, Lloyd, et al, would have been of even more worth if they had frankly acknowledged their sources, and their own personal input, if any, rather than [if such is indeed what they did, which question-begs to an extent because this is precisely the point at issue] trying to pass off their own additions and emendations as being true traditional coin.

Some seem here to be suggesting that a song's being 'worth singing' somehow precludes any reason to inquire into its origins, as if these were somehow incompatible considerations. Surely the two activities, enjoyment in singing and scholarly accuracy, can co-exist, rather than being for some reason regarded as mutually incompatible? That is what folklore is - and what this forum exists to consider.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Devils Advocate
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:34 AM

Most performers choose a song because it appeals to them, they do not choose it because it is traditional of because Baring Gould or some other song writer wrote it.
When a performer chooses a contemporary song they choose it on its merits, as far as I am concerned when I make a decision to perform a song, my decision is not influenced by whether it was a Baring Gould composition or a genuine traditional song, so it matters little to meas regards the choosing of the song.
Some of the scholars on this forum have in the past sneered at Lloyd and criticized him for allegedly producing fakes, these fakes have been so good, they have for many years fooled a lot of people. Does anyone criticize Keating for doing something similiar as regads old masters in the art world?
Keating had created them, he declared, as a protest against those art traders who get rich at the artist's expense.
Lloyd and Baring Gould, were concerned about collecting and leaving a legacy of large quality repertoire, for this they should be thanked not castigated by those whose concern appears to be not the merit of the song but scholarly accuracy, sing the song, judge the song on its merits and stop making a hullabaloo about scholarly accuracy, talk about a Mountain out of a Molehill.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 06:58 AM

Bert seriously mislead people about the origin of some of the songs that he sang. He compose some and said he had collected them.

Of course the songs should be judged simply as songs. But Bert wasn't simply doing that he was seeking to further a vue of folks songs and their origins by composing songs to support his hypothesis.

Does it matter? Not much. But lies are lies


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:05 AM

But why are people like Really & Advocate going on as if nothing mattered except how much a song turned their-all·important-selves on? As I read it, any sort of interest in any aspect of a song except its tum-di-pum singability is somehow contemptible. I hope that isn't really what they mean. If it actually is, then IMO they should be ashamed of such an egocentric, philistine and anti-intellectual world-view.

Tom Keating, BTW, was arrested in 1977, and accused of conspiracy to defraud. The case was dropped solely owing to his bad health. The fact that his forgeries for a while acquired a certain collectability and cult following IMO reflects poorly on some people's judgment, rather than indicates any particular quality in his work other than that of particularly gifted pasticheur, and I suppose a sort of meretricious interisting-ness comparable to that of a freak show' Likewise, Han van Meegeren confessed to forgery to avoid accusations of collaboration under the Nazi occupation of Holland. On 12 November 1947, after a brief but highly publicized trial, he was convicted of falsification and fraud charges, and was sentenced to a modest punishment of one year in prison. He never served his sentence, however; before he could be incarcerated, he suffered a heart attack and died on 30 December 1947. It is estimated that van Meegeren duped buyers, including the government of the Netherlands, out of the equivalent of more than thirty million dollars in today's money. Admire him too, do you, Advocate?

FWIW, I think better than that of Baring Gould & Lloyd -- but would think even more respectfully if they had been a bit more frank as to the true extent of their actual input.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:44 AM

A painting may be worth a million pounds when it's a Rembrandt, but only a few thousand when it turns out to be a Keating. It's still exactly the same painting. If it was bad before, why was it worth a million then? If it was good before, why is it worth so little now?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:48 AM

Devils advocate raises some interesting points, and there is some validity in his? her? argument, however scholarly interest may not be of the same importance to me, but its fair enough that others attach a different importance to it.
MGM goes right over the top IMO IN ACCUSING devils advocaat of being a Philstine, according to the dictionary a philstine is a person who is guided by materialism and is usually disdainful of intellectual or artistic values.
has devils advocaat been disdainful of artistic values, to the contrary devils advocaat, is talking about artistic value being the benchmark for choosing a song, is there any evidence Devils whatsit is guided by materialism?
I only partly agree with devils advocaat, but surely he/SHE has a reight to put forward a case without incorectly being called a philistine by boobys such as MGM.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:50 AM

Contrary to 'popular' opinion I also greatly admire the work of Baring Gould and Bert Lloyd.

The argument, however, seems to be that there should be no study on the history of songs. Their only worth is in singing them. This is ridiculous and I now bow out of this silly conversation!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Devils Advocate, not devils advocaat
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 07:56 AM

Devils Advocaat, god forbid, A guarantee for a hangover.
Dick Miles does at least provide some humor, could we make him Mudcats court jester?
The sanctimonious attitude of some on this thread leaves me gob smacked
"Does it matter? Not much. But lies are lies."


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:06 AM

I think Devils Advocate is saying that it is more important to sing the songs, and to judeg the song on its merit as regards choice of singning it than to be concerned wheter it is tradtional or a composotion,his /her argument that we do not judge modern composed songs by who wrote them,is a valid argument, it is not silly.
Devils advocate, did not actually say that there should be no study of the history of songs, if i understood him /her correctly, Devil was saying that singers choose songs on their merit.
Devil does seem to imply that he?she thinks the most important worth is in singning them, that does not mean that devil thinks there is no worth in studying the history of songs.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: GUEST,Dick Miles
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM

Songs should be judged on their quality as a song.
Here is another viewpoint, all "traditional" songs were originally compositions, but through the mists of time we have lost their authorship, if that is the case they should be judged in exactly the same way as modern composed contemporary folk songs.
I wonder do folk singers dismiss a song written by a popular singer such as Harry Chapin?, The Shortest story, because he is not from The Folk Revival.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-Yj_Md2no


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Subject: RE: Folklore: Baring-Goulds Constructions
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Mar 14 - 03:04 PM

Bert Lloyd lied to people about the origins of some of the songs he sang and shared with others. This is true.

Why did he do that? He wrote a lot about 'folk' songs and was and is taken very seriously by some people who try to understand the origin and evolution of old/folk songs.

How much of what he wrote might be called evidence and how much is lies?

We will probably never know.

Does it matter? Not much


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