BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..

Subject: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Musket
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM

Quiet..

Don't wake the moderators....

LET'S DISCUSS CREATIONISM AGAIN!!!!!!!!

Your move.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 09:14 AM

It doesn't matter how we got here. What do we do now?

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 09:22 AM

Are you trying to create a fuss?

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Musket
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 09:31 AM

You can't create*

You can merely convert.








*If you ignore the work of Prof Higgs.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 10:10 AM

Do we know any bosuns who might join in?

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 10:18 AM

"It doesn't matter how we got here. What do we do now?"

The only thing that makes much sense: order pizza.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Musket
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 10:27 AM

Boson...

You are going to have to visit this thread as well now, me old Co Messiah....

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 10:28 AM

Creationism is Star Trek for the closed minded.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Musket
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 10:34 AM

OK Steve, you win.

You said Bosun as a magnet to attract sailors....

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 10:44 AM

Just think what you could attract with a coxswain or a bulwark!

BTW - Was this thread created or did it evolve?

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 10:56 AM

Dave, I think this thread might turn out to be the poop deck. :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 11:22 AM

You're all getting very nautical.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Will Fly
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 11:30 AM

Criez, Jean!

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 11:31 AM

... And all I need is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.

Ok on the ship, but where did the star come from? and what day?

one of our states wants to proclaim the wooly mammoth as their state fossil... but it's on hold while they squabble about the "created on the 6th day" language that got inserted into it....

third world, here we come... do not stop at Go and do NOT collect $200.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 11:40 AM

You said Bosun as a magnet to attract sailors....

Yes I did - and it bloody worked!

What was the thread about?

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 01:08 PM

How closely do you think two tholes resemble a rollock?

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM

Rollocks to you too Richard!

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:05 PM

How many does it take to row, row, row your boat...........

Never mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:33 PM

Row, row, row your boat gently down the stream,
Trousers down, willy out, isn't life a scream?

I think the last creationist thread ended with bearded Bruce explaining God to we mere mortals ? If anyone wishes to take up the cudgels.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:39 PM

"God is the tangential point between zero and infinity."

Alfred Jarry...renowned 'Pataphysiican

...hard to say if that indicates any tendency toward causality...

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:40 PM

Any moment now we'll be hearing from those two famous crew members on board the Black Pig, skippered by Captain Pugwash. (Master Bates and Seaman Staines)

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:44 PM

Four gentlies.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 02:45 PM

Oops... shoulda rechecked out the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:45 PM

My car says in back

shhh...... I'm TEXTING


yEAH I DREAD JACK THE BULLY especially to kids who are differently wired.

but I know something he don't

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 03:56 PM

(Master Bates and Seaman Staines)

...Not forgetting Roger the Cabin-boy. BUT all three are characters of Folklore, not Captain Pugwash. Funny how these things catch on!

From WIKI : There is a persistent urban legend, repeated by the now defunct UK newspaper the Sunday Correspondent, that ascribes sexually suggestive names – such as Master Bates, Seaman Staines, and Roger (meaning "have sex with") the Cabin Boy – to Captain Pugwash's characters, and indicating that the captain's name was a slang Australian term for oral sex. John Ryan successfully sued both the Sunday Correspondent and The Guardian newspapers in 1991 for printing this legend as fact. The origin of this myth is likely due to student rag mags from the 1970s.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Ed T
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 04:08 PM

pugwash 

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 05:13 PM

Yes Jack, I did know their names were a spoof, but they still make me giggle! (I'd forgotten Roger the cabin boy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: gnu
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:25 PM

Dirty little nipper.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 14 - 08:54 PM

So, who wants what on the pizza?

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Musket
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:19 AM

I'll have roast dinosaur, 6,001 year old smoked kangaroo, served on a bed of ark planks.

Oh, and some water. Got this bloke here reckons he can turn it into wine. He sounds useful but says this will be the last time he does supper. Must like his beer though, he says he is going to get nailed tomorrow. Sounds like a good party in the offering. If you put some fishes on the pizza bread, he reckons he can make it stretch, so don't go buying garlic bread or chips.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:09 AM

Musket, LOL!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:19 AM

OK, well I haven't had very good Internet service this week. I typed out something offline very carefully, and then found the other thread closed when I wanted to post my profound thoughts. Here's what I said:

I guess I get drawn into posting in these threads when I see something that just seems unfair, especially when the preponderance of the discussion consists of putting down what others hold sacred. I really don't want to defend what I believe. Defending my beliefs puts me in a position where I don't want to be, because I don't pretend to have to have possession of the Truth. My faith life is a life of exploration, pondering the questions and mysteries of life. I believe the Truth lies not in one answer, but in a delicate balance of many answers and many perspectives.

I have a great deal of admiration and respect for Pete and for many other born-again Christians. I respect their strict interpretation of the Bible, although I do not hold to it myself. They put their hearts into what they believe, and it makes a difference in their lives. Their dedication and their integrity is certainly admirable and inspiring. I have known conservative Jews and Muslims with this same dedication and integrity. I have also learned a great deal from atheists who look at life through a non-theistic perspective. They often come up with honest, profound answers that don't rely on platitudes or preconceptions. Their insights are often invaluable to me.

I suppose I'm eclectic, fitting best into what are referred to as "mainline" Christians. I try to study every position I can come across, and learn from them all. Some may call me a "Cafeteria Catholic" (a term I despise) because I adhere to no one ideology, but in my eight years of Catholic seminary training, I was never taught that I was required to adhere to a single simplistic ideology. I prefer to see the truth wherever I find it - and most often, the answer is "both," or often "all of the above." I see wisdom in most of the longstanding religious and philosophical traditions. Though I may not espouse every one of them, I try to respect and understand each of them - even the conservative ones.

To my mind, my religious beliefs and traditions need satisfy only one person - me. I can't understand why people seem to think they have the right to tell me what a horrible person I am for believing this or not believing that. Or, for that matter, condemning me or my beliefs for what some other Catholic did. I acknowledge the Inquisition. I acknowledge the child molestation scandal. I didn't do it, and I didn't support it.

I went to a convention of 40,000 Catholics two weeks a ago, a gathering sponsored by the Archbishop of Los Angeles with the official blessing of Pope Francis. There were ultra-Catholics outside with newspapers and posters telling us what heretics we were. There were also born-again street preachers on the scene, telling us what sinners we were for being Catholics. We somehow didn't suit their particular ideology, so somehow we were terrible persons - despite the fact that we were Christians gathered to worship God. Now, there were 40,000 of us and maybe 15 protesters, so I guess we weren't all THAT bad. I know that for some people the main point of their religion is pointing out how horrible other people are for one thing or another, mostly for their beliefs or their sexual conduct. I feel bound to speak up when people do injustice or injury to others, but I don't see the private conduct of others is any of my business.

The one thing I can't stomach, is those people who live to tear others down. Very often, they seem to have no thinking of their own - they only seek to destroy the thinking of others. There's a lot of that going on here at Mudcat. It's disheartening, and it serves to prevent a civil and constructive exchange of ideas. The bullies and naysayers beat everybody into defensive positions, and then very little good can happen. If Messrs. Blandiver and Musket and Shaw think I have insulted them by criticizing their endless attacks, so be it. I don't wish to insult anyone, but I don't think it's right to attack nonaggressive people for what they hold sacred.

-Joe-

And Musket, I think you for starting this thread. I had things I wanted to say, and I was disappointed when the other thread was closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:51 AM

Good post, Joe. I, as I have often said before, have nothing against any religion provided it does not try to push it's own version of 'truth' down the throat of other people. Particularly the young and vulnerable. As I know that you are one of the good guys can I ask a favour of you? Maybe at a conference, like the one you describe, can you suggest that Catholic schools do not teach children that your faith is true? By all means teach the tenets of Catholicism and any other religion. But teach it as a 'this is what some people believe' type of lesson. Leave it up to the people, when they are grown up, to decide for themselves.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM

You're right, Dave.

I cringe particularly when I see Catholic youth groups wearing T-shirts that contend that the Catholic faith (or some other faith) is the "one true religion." As someone who has served as a catechist for almost 50 years, I've always thought it's far better to do a decent job of presenting things rationally, and then let the audience decide for themselves what's of value and what's not.

And the best proof, is how people live their lives. I have seen people of all ways of thinking and all creeds and philosophies who live exemplary lives that's I've learned a lot from. That makes me think that what's in the heart is what's most important, not a person's way of thinking.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Stu
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:03 AM

"Their dedication and their integrity is certainly admirable and inspiring."

Joe, I have the greatest respect for you as a person of integrity and someone with a deep and sophisticated faith, but I have to take issue with this line. Note this is not an ad hominem attack, I just need to make this point about integrity.

In the creationist threads my fellow scientists have been constantly misrepresented, dismissed and been outright lied about. I know many people (palaeontologists in my case) who act in the best interests of us all, who are fervent believers in the democratisation of knowledge and work to the highest possible standards. Many are religious themselves, many are not. However they all have one thing inn common: integrity. They are motivated by the search for truth, no more or less than any religious advocate.

The creationist advocates on this site have not acted with integrity, choosing instead to obscfucate, evade and deceive. To me, these people are teachers who should be engaged with, not to simply name-call them constantly but to try to discuss the points they raise, but in the end it's like herding cats and becomes tiresome.

There is no real honesty, let alone integrity displayed by these people. They lack any desire for truth and question nothing, they are simply following a rulebook to the letter. They lack understanding and their opinions are lacking nuance; their arguments rely on false witness.

I can't see much to admire there.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:24 AM

Thanks Joe. Like I said, one of the good guys. BTW - You up very early or very late?

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:35 AM

I think your admiration for creationists is severely misplaced. These people are honest neither with themselves nor with others, and I find their attacks on science to be extremely offensive.

As for your or anyone else's religious beliefs, I've said time and time again that I can respect them, as long as they are held privately and not used in any way to influence others to follow them. Explain your beliefs, great (very necessary, too), but that business of influencing others to follow the same beliefs is simply immoral. My bar for that immorality threshold is set very low. Telling young children that there is a God, making them attend faith schools and forcing them to worship by singing hymns and parroting prayers all fail my test abysmally, no matter how cosily they are wrapped up.

And it would help if you didn't tell me I needed a shrink, though I can take that.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:41 AM

Thanks joe, and to assure you that ,though having a firm faith in the bible and obviously not taking your position that nothing can be known for sure about the subject, I would certainly not be protesting outside your conference !

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Musket
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:30 AM

Joe says he was questioned by the fundamentalists but respects them. He then singles out those who don't share a faith and says not so nice things about us.

Interesting.

I have consistently waffled on the subject of live and let live but that makes me a militant something or other, (atheist apparently.)

I fail to see where pointing out that religion and science is chalk and dog fur is a problem? People speaking of science don't try to justify it against religion. People of religion have a habit of trying to justify against science. pete being our pet example.

Apparently I am wrong to point out the wars, misery and backwardness for civilisation that religion brings. People still, here in the c21 are prepared to kill and die in order to prove that their imaginary friend is better than someone else's. Joe speaks of the orthodox Catholics as if they were normal. Me? Managed to watch that new Judi Dench and Steve Coogan film at the weekend. You could weep at the callous actions of those wicked nuns. True story for that matter.

Joe used to respect my views till he figured he was in the firing line. Now doesn't respect me for holding firm in my views.

Sorry, but that says all you need to read. It's a bit like on the prick thread, where fair words and foul intent seem to be preferable to foul words with fair intent.




Well, fuck me gently.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 10:42 AM

I admire pete for his determination and faith. I don't admire that he attacks science without bothering to learn what it is. I don't find his regurgitating the arguments of others to be an attractive aspect of his Mudcat persona.

I like pete as a man very much. He has grit and patience and a dry wit. He argues like my grandfather did. How can I not find that endearing? I didn't believe most of what my grandfather said either. If taken with a grain of salt, a mixture of mischief and fundamentalism can be very amusing. Most of us can learn from pete's example.

I think that Joe as hit upon some good points. It is useful to converse with someone with strong belief who is also willing to listen. It gives me some hope for humanity.

Even the Mudcat mocking birds have their moments of lucidity and humanity. If they were to work on their humility, these threads would be one of the better and more stimulating places on the Internet to hang out.

Now, I am not saying that I have no faults. I certainly do have faults. But I feel that they have been pointed out on these threads far too many times in far too much detail to be of interest to anyone not writing a thesis on abnormal Internet psychology.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 11:07 AM

Even the Mudcat mocking birds have their moments of lucidity and humanity.

Wrong. We are all about lucidity and humanity. If you want to see what real inhumanity is, go and read some of the trash emanating from some of the crypto-fascists who post on the Israel thread, or in any thread which discusses homosexuality. That's the problem, innit. Have a go at people who call you names but ignore (as with them) or defend (as with pete) the unbalanced and the downright unsavoury. If you want a good forum with strong discussion, you have to give these people no quarter. Build an ethos that effectively excludes their notions (not them). Simple as that. Too many people who comment in these threads are choosing the wrong targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:18 PM

Although I am a 'believer' (CofE) and go to church every Sunday, I'm still angered by all the religions (mine included) which dominate and strait-jacket vulnerable, credulous peoples, usually (but not exclusively) in the so-called Third World, ordering them to contribute financially to gigantic, wealthy institutions when they can hardly feed themselves; forbidding contraception; enforcing bizarre practices such as Ramadan (no food or even water for all daylight hours in temperatures of 50C); FGM and circumcision of young babies/children without anaesthesia; eradicating many historical and cultural traditions and labelling them 'sinful'; imposing dietary laws which make no sense; shunning and persecuting all homosexuals; loading people with guilt and shame for lifestyles which harm no-one (for example, living with someone but not marrying them) and so on and on. Muslims, Christians, Jews and other worldwide religions all do these things, and I do not agree with any of them, neither does my Muslim husband. 'Religion' can be a heinous burden and scourge, and has been responsible over millennia for an unimaginable amount of suffering and death.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Musket
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 12:39 PM

You know Eliza, if you can keep your faith without blind adherence to a controlling organisation, you have won and they have lost.

Most people who profess a faith are too good for the scheming multinationals masquerading as religions. I was at a service last Sunday, (Methodist) and if you ignore asking my niece and her husband to fear God (christening) it was all good fun. Not my cup of tea and better as a metaphor than to take the chants and words at face value but I can well understand people looking forward to going.

You mention the rat trap lurking under the cheese. If you can nibble the cheese anyway, good luck to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 02:31 PM

Steve Shaw says (03 Apr 14 - 07:35 AM):

I think your admiration for creationists is severely misplaced. These people are honest neither with themselves nor with others, and I find their attacks on science to be extremely offensive.

Hi, Steve. I do not support or admire "creationism" or creationists. What I said is this (03 Apr 14 - 04:19 AM):

I have a great deal of admiration and respect for Pete and for many other born-again Christians. I respect their strict interpretation of the Bible, although I do not hold to it myself. They put their hearts into what they believe, and it makes a difference in their lives. Their dedication and their integrity is certainly admirable and inspiring. I have known conservative Jews and Muslims with this same dedication and integrity.

The conservative people I admire may not have a scientifically correct understanding of the origins of our universe. They may profess and express "creationist" ideas, but they make no attempt to impose their views on the rest of us, or on our taxpayer-owned schools. "Creationism" itself is a different ballgame. It is a desperate and aggressive power grab by fundamentalist leaders seeking impose their entire world view (Weltanschauung, if you will) by forcing their neo-traditionalist definition of creation upon the rest of us - particularly upon our schoolchildren. These people don't even take the biblical story of creation straight - they impose all sorts of phony "science" upon the creation story, in an attempt to make it look scientific. And they spend all sorts of money and use political muscle to force their phony science upon the rest of us. They're quite successful in places like Texas and the American southern and central states. They've even had some luck here in California, but not on a large scale.

I live in a very conservative county near Sacramento, California. Our local school boards have often had to fight off attempts to impose "creationism" on our schools - along with the extreme right-wing agenda that goes with it. The excellent president of my stepson's junior college lost his job during a short period when the conservatives had a majority on the board of directors of the college.

But I think those aggressive "creationists" are quite different from most religious conservatives, who don't try to force their religion on the rest of us. They're good people like Pete - generous, thoughtful, tolerant people. They believe what they believe - and in everyday life, it doesn't make much difference what they believe about the origins of the universe. They may buy into what the creationists are teaching, but forcing creationism on the world is not a concern for them. And yes, I admit that they vote and that their votes very often don't agree with mine - but that's democracy for ya.

So, what I oppose is aggression, not any particular philosophy. Unfortunately, aggression and the drive to destroy and deride others, is alive and well on the Internet, including our bully-dominated discussions here at Mudcat.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 03:11 PM

It's been very interesting over the years to find my husband feels the same as I do, although he's a Muslim and I'm a Christian. We've both found ways to honour God, live (we hope) a loving and good life, worship in our different places and try to 'walk the straight path' as he puts it, all without becoming 'fundamentalist' or overly dogmatic, and trying to understand and tolerate other views (not easy that one!) I reckon our 'joint religion' manages to circumnavigate the minefields of rules and regulations, bigotry and extremism. If this sounds horribly smug, I didn't intend it to, and sometimes I wonder if I should stay in my church (aa he does with his mosque). But we keep trudging on and concentrate on trying to be kind, pray for others and find joy in the natural world.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 04:03 PM

If you don't want bully-dominated discussions, don't tell me I need a shrink.

You admire pete but not creationists, you say. But pete is a dyed-in-the-wool creationist, Joe. His mission is to propagate creationist notions. He doesn't necessarily say "I'm a creationist and you should follow what I say", but he does diss all the science, so hard-won, so honest, that shows how wrong he is. He is utterly disrespectful towards scientists, even the best of 'em, such as Charles Darwin, who made it his life's work to seek the truth about how the diversity of life got here. Pete dismisses them summarily, lazily and ignorantly, ignoring all evidence that doesn't suit him. That is not a position of integrity as I understand that word. He is a cad and a charlatan and you would do well to see it. Soft faces, hard cases. You are listening to the wrong people here.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: GUEST,Stu in the ether
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 05:52 PM

There certainly are bullies here.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:33 PM

Just so's y'all know what it is I said that Steve Shaw was so offended by, it was something I said in the "creationism" thread on March 27:

To seek to refute and destroy attempts at constructive thinking, seems to be small-minded and mean-spirited, at the very least. Sometimes I wonder whether some of our Mudcat Brethren understand the concept of constructive discussion. Messrs. Blandiver, Shaw, and Musket may well need a shrink to get them out of their funk.

I just can't see that as "bullying." Maybe mildly naughty and perhaps not qualifying material for my sainthood, but it was just a gentle attempt at humor. I never dreamed that Mr. Shaw would still be offended by it a week later. I certainly wouldn't want to upset him so.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 06:51 PM

attempts at constructive thinking

I hope you don't mean to imply, Joe, that the "thinking"[sic] of the creationists is either constuctive or approximates actual intelligent thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Shh.. Don't let them hear you..
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Apr 14 - 07:16 PM

I never apologize.
I'm sorry, but that's just the way I am.- Homer J. Simpson