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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Jul 17 - 04:57 AM This kind of thing goes back to the "community song" movement of the 20s, and there's no sensible alternative to singing off a sheet. There's a reason why the News Chronicle songbook sold as well as it did. There is a sensible alternative its called practice and menorisation most of the ukelele stuff is fairly simple chords that can be learned quickly, it is just laziness Twaddle. The community song movement never depended on memorization, and for what they were doing there was no earthly point. Nor is there for the ukulele groups. Their repertoire is far too big and fast-developing. I suspect you've never been to one. The community-song thing was a mass movement made up of people who were very well practiced in singing from books - that's what every churchgoer does, and most people in community singing already sang hymns every week. There was then (and still is) a FAR larger proportion of the public who knew how to sing convincingly off a sheet than the total membership of the folk scene at its zenith. The sad thing is that folkies have accepted an abysmal level of incompetence at interpreting songs from print. In a church, that would get you edged towards the back of the room so most of the congregation didn't have to listen to you. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: The Sandman Date: 06 Jul 17 - 03:46 AM "I've seen some people make a half-decent job on tha concertina, but even then, there is a tendency to allow the instrument to make the running "or not be allowed to play until they have learnt the tune off by heart" As far as I'm concerned, the golden rule is 'private is for practice - public is for the finished article'" good points, yes, any accompanying instrument should be just that, not a bad idea to learn the song unaccompanied first, first rule is singing has to be louder than instrument, then keep the accompaniment simple, and flexible using chords as an alternative to melody allows the singer to hold longer notes[altering timing and phrasing for effect] [in my experience only] it becomes simpler to do this using chordal acc rather than melody, but both can be done if a lot of time and practice is put in. I have seen both older and youger singers shuffling through notes in an amateurish way, I have seen the occasional performer make an excellent job of reading from notes.. Johnny Handle for example, BUT THEN HE HAS HAD BEEN PERFORMING FOR YEARS WITHOUT NOTES. " Here in England there has been a significant growth in ukulele groups (and community choirs) at the same time as folk clubs have declined. There can be between 10 and 50 people playing together, possibly 20 songs in an evening from songbooks containing up to a hundred songs. They use iPads here. This kind of thing goes back to the "community song" movement of the 20s, and there's no sensible alternative to singing off a sheet. There's a reason why the News Chronicle songbook sold as well as it did." There is a sensible alternative its called practice and menorisation most of the ukelele stuff is fairly simple chords that can be learned quickly, it is just laziness., and you know it Jack Campin However classical music and brass band music is a different ball game. When I was a member of the new mexborough english concertina quartet we had to use sheet music the parts were too complicated and lengthy ,but that is a different genre, it is debatable that what we were playing was folk music, I dont think it was ,but i enjoyed it |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Jul 17 - 09:21 PM ..and also... important to consider.. way back in the day... and the not too distant past at that... So many adults never learned to read........ |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:21 PM ...besides which... like it or lump it... the karaoke boom of the past few decades has normalized and made socially acceptable the reading of lyrics in public entertainment singing... |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:08 PM What pisses me off with crib sheets is that it's more often than not that it's youngsters who use them That's not what I see - the older the singer, the more likely they are to use notation (badly), and the larger and more disorganized their song folder is likely to be. The folk scene has not done very well at helping people bow out gracefully. Here in England there has been a significant growth in ukulele groups (and community choirs) at the same time as folk clubs have declined. There can be between 10 and 50 people playing together, possibly 20 songs in an evening from songbooks containing up to a hundred songs. They use iPads here. This kind of thing goes back to the "community song" movement of the 20s, and there's no sensible alternative to singing off a sheet. There's a reason why the News Chronicle songbook sold as well as it did. I belong to something a bit like that, a fluid group of 10-20 people doing Greek and Middle Eastern music. The instrumentalists (including me) memorize the songs quickly. The singers are pretty stuck, because they have five different first languages and share songs. The timescale involved in putting together a set for a new performance just doesn't allow the time for them all to memorize all the material in unfamiliar languages. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: punkfolkrocker Date: 05 Jul 17 - 08:01 PM "What pisses me off with crib sheets is that it's more often than not that it's youngsters who use them, leaving the impression that they really can't be arsed - extremely patronising The oldies tend to have spent a lifetime singing their songs in Jim - bear in mind there were fewer songs in total [good & bad] in existence when the folk tradition sprang forth, and later became more popularized... Now there are countless millions..... from dozens, if not hundreds & thousands, of genres and diverse cultures to choose from........ I often spend so much time trying to decide which CD to listen to, I run out of time and have to go to bed having listened to nothing... Kids these days, the aspiring singers, are over spoiled with choice for competing activities to occupy their time.. and in all honesty folk clubs are just only one of the available venues to practice show casing their 'talents'... |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:41 PM "What about when there is a group with instruments which need to be in harmony"may be a good indication of why the British tradition is basically an unaccompanied one. I sang a lot accompanied, but I failed miserably to accompany myself (on the guitar, that is) I've seen some people make a half-decent job on tha concertina, but even then, there is a tendency to allow the instrument to make the running "or not be allowed to play until they have learnt the tune off by heart" As far as I'm concerned, the golden rule is 'private is for practice - public is for the finished article' No club should ever its singers to practice in public - it gives both the club and the music a bad name What pisses me off with crib sheets is that it's more often than not that it's youngsters who use them, leaving the impression that they really can't be arsed - extremely patronising The oldies tend to have spent a lifetime singing their songs in Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,watcher (and strummer!) Date: 05 Jul 17 - 07:08 PM It seems that everyone is assuming people are singing unaccompanied, and probably solo. What about when there is a group with instruments which need to be in harmony with each other, literally "off the same songsheet". Thanks to the so-called folk process there are many variations in the melody as well as the chords for any song. As a bit of an aside, how is Joe Offer getting on with his ukulele? Here in England there has been a significant growth in ukulele groups (and community choirs) at the same time as folk clubs have declined. There can be between 10 and 50 people playing together, possibly 20 songs in an evening from songbooks containing up to a hundred songs. so, back on topic, should everyone hammer away doing their own thing, or not be allowed to play until they have learnt the tune off by heart, or is it acceptable to have the songsheets on music stands? There's a lot of words to learn, plus the "right" chords, for people with no previous musical training if they can't have the safety net. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:13 PM Jim Carroll, good post |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 Jul 17 - 03:01 PM "You know, I sing songs for the fun of it. " Don't know about you Joe, but I get the most fun out of singing a song when it works - for me and for the listener That takes work Macoll summed it up perfectly when we rinterviewed him "Now you might say that working and training to develop your voice to sing Nine Maidens A-milking Did Go or Lord Randall is calculated to destroy your original joy in singing, at least that's the argument that's put to me from time to time, or has been put to me from time to time by singers who should know better. The better you can do a thing the more you enjoy it. Anybody who's ever tried to sing and got up in front of an audience and made a bloody mess of it knows that you're not enjoying it when you're making a balls of it, but you are enjoying it when it's working, when all the things you want to happen are happening. And that can happen without training, sure it can, but it's hit or miss. If you're training it can happen more, that's the difference. It can't happen every time, not with anybody, although your training can stand you in good stead, it's something to fall back on, a technique, you know. It's something that will at least make sure that you're not absolutely diabolical…………… The objective, really for the singer is to create a situation where when he starts to sing he's no longer worried about technique, he's done all that, and he can give the whole of his or her attention to the song itself, she can give her or he can give his whole attention to the sheer act of enjoying the song." Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jul 17 - 02:46 PM Sandman says:
2. You need to learn to ad lib and keep going, remember the story line and the rhyming scheme, this partly what performing is about, it is much the same with tunes one sometimes make a mistake but it is knowing how to deal with the mistake, that is partly the art of performance You know, I sing songs for the fun of it. I've never performed for a paying audience, and I never intend to. I do have a number of songs committed to memory, but I like to try new stuff. Most of the people I sing with, don't have the expectation that songs be fully memorized, and yet we are able to have a wonderful time singing together. So, generally, I just don't sing with people if their expectations are higher than what I'm comfortable with. Screw 'em. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: MikeL2 Date: 05 Jul 17 - 02:29 PM Hi <" What I do have is a capacity for practising, practising and practising, persistently, until words, tunes and chords stay "> Couldn't agree more. The old adage of "Practice makes Perfect " is very true. How you practice - Will has given some good advice. I used to practice while listening to the tune/song I wanted to learn. I would record the song and sing/play with it until I thought I was word perfect. Then I would sing without the recording and then listen to it. This showed where it needed improvement. This helped me. I found that it made me much more confident which in turn improved my peformance in front of the audiences. cheers MiKeL2 |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jul 17 - 01:42 PM i am not suggesting that you should not learn the words, but it can happen to anyone [myself included.. despite practice] so then you have to keep cool and try and correct it rather than giving up in a state of embarrassment or resort to always using words, have i made myself clear LynneH, YOU PRACTISE THE SONG MANY TIMES IF YOU STILL MAKE A MISTAKE YOU HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO HANDLE IT |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM If you practise you are showing the song respect if you do not you are not showing your audience respect, if you do make a mistake knowing how to get over it is also part of performance, that does not mean you should not practise, you should practise.... is that clear, Nigel Parsons |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 05 Jul 17 - 01:34 PM As Fred Wedlock once sang: "In the middle of Sir Patrick Spens I clean forgot the 42nd. verse So I sang the 27th. once again and twice as loud and no-one even noticed............." Personally, if I hadn't learnt a song properly I wouldn't get up on stage and try to wing it! |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jul 17 - 01:31 PM nigel parsons, you can interpret this comment how you like Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Nigel Parsons - PM Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:48 AM Conflicting stances here: From: The Sandman - PM Date: 05 Jul 17 - 12:23 AM 2. You need to learn to ad lib and keep going, remember the story line and the rhyming scheme, this partly what performing is about, it is much the same with tunes one sometimes make a mistake but it is knowing how to deal with the mistake, that is partly the art of performance So it's Ok to take the stage if your unsure of words or music, and happy to ." no its not, and that is not what i said, what i am saying is this you practise hard, and learn your words, but if you do make a mistake, you keep cool try and ad lib if you can, if you cannot, then you have several options sing a chorus or repeat another verse, and carry on. What is your problem Nigel Parsons, that you try and twist my words to eitherr score points or attempt to ridicule me, I have not said that performers should not learn the words. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: JHW Date: 05 Jul 17 - 12:20 PM Last night I forgot the next verse, twice. Twice I repeated the verse I had just sung and the missing verse flowed perfectly. This in a ballad which are usually easy to keep going in. For a while I went out with 'pick your own set'; a hundred titles for the audience to tick sheets and I did the most ticked. Never a great success but very interesting to do. Now I may have to scroll through the words in my head as a safeguard - but a missing line may pop up easily when sung or one I'd rehearsed may still disappear. Its like forgetting someones name or the name of a common flower which you know you know. a feature alas of age. I'll give up one day if it gets too bad but I'll never use a crib sheet. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Will Fly Date: 05 Jul 17 - 12:03 PM Believe me Tony, there's no difference in busyness when you're retired - and nearly every retiree I've ever met has said, "Never been busier - don't know how I ever did any work!" or words to that effect. I have an ailing in-law, grandchildren, car, shopping, cooking, cleaning, house & garden to maintain, and lots of other demands on my time. But I've never used paper or pads or anything else when performing - which has now been for over 50 years - whether working or retired. And I don't think I have an abnormal brain - unless it's on the small size! What I do have is a capacity for practising, practising and practising, persistently, until words, tunes and chords stay in my head through thick and thin. And the irony is that the more you do it, the better you get at doing it. It's possible, for example, to rehearse a song in your head while doing other things - washing up, walking, on the loo, driving with the song on the car CD or mp3 player, etc. My tips: 1. Write the song/chords/notes, whatever, out in longhand on a piece of paper. This act of writing aids memory. 2. Start singing as much of the song as you can without looking at the paper. 3. When you get to a bit you don't know, take a peek at the paper and fill in the blank. 4. Continue until the blanks start to get filled in. That's one way - I'm sure other 'Catters have similar tips. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,Tony Fisk Date: 05 Jul 17 - 11:40 AM Sometimes I sing from memory, sometimes from sheets (even if I wrote it - complexity is a rod for my own back) The best approach that I know is, if you DO have to have it in front of you, sort your material out in advance and collect together what you need, in the order you need it. That way you don't have to rustle paper during anybody else's performance and don't waste the audience's time hunting through a lever-arch binder. As for those who memorise everything, either (a) congratulations on your brain capacity or (b) lucky you for having the time - some of us have day jobs and have to spend most of our "spare" hours pushing back against the entropy of life-in-general like home and car maintenance, gardening, cooking, shopping etc. so cut us some slack. Maybe when I've retired, I'll memorise everything, too. Until then, there's paper to fall back on. Or a 12" Android tablet with slow-scrolling PDFs.... |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Nigel Parsons Date: 05 Jul 17 - 06:48 AM Conflicting stances here: From: The Sandman - PM Date: 05 Jul 17 - 12:23 AM 2. You need to learn to ad lib and keep going, remember the story line and the rhyming scheme, this partly what performing is about, it is much the same with tunes one sometimes make a mistake but it is knowing how to deal with the mistake, that is partly the art of performance So it's Ok to take the stage if your unsure of words or music, and happy to Compare this with earlier comments that those taking to the stage must learn the words: My opinion is positive I believe that performing with words is not necessary and insulting to an audience, it looks to me as if musicans /singers have not bothered to learn the words before they perform, if someone cannot be bothered that is an insult to the audience, therefore your club would not appeal to me, I am not prejudging anything ,I have seen two photgraphs of different performers at your club using words while performing, on that basis i would not wish to attend your club, there is nothing introspective about it or pompous. The only person who is being rude or negative or pompous is you, you cannot accept that people might not want to come to a club where performers appear to be not bothered about learning words. It seems the author changes his view depending on his own capabilities at the time, always on the understanding that reading lyrics is an absolute no-no. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 05 Jul 17 - 05:31 AM It's about engaging your audience, methinks. If you can still do that with a crib-sheet in front of you - great! If you can't, then you're on a loser. I've known some singers who can do it discreetly - but I've also known some who seem to use a crib, consciously or otherwise, to avoid engagement. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: The Sandman Date: 05 Jul 17 - 12:23 AM "I admit that it's a good thing to memorize the lyrics to a song - I just don't do it very well, and I hate to have to stop a song in the middle because I've forgotten the lyrics. I feel like I've learned a song when I can sing it well." 1. You need to analyse why your memory fails you, and learn tricks to overcome it. 2. You need to learn to ad lib and keep going, remember the story line and the rhyming scheme, this partly what performing is about, it is much the same with tunes one sometimes make a mistake but it is knowing how to deal with the mistake, that is partly the art of performance |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:30 PM On the U.S. Pacific coast, Merritt Herring was known for the huge number of songs in his repertoire. In the last years of his life, he would forget the lyrics to some songs, so he kept his songs in a looseleaf binder. I'd kill to get a copy of that binder. Merritt always sang every song well. His binder helped him continue to sing well until his final days. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 Jul 17 - 08:04 PM Well done Joe Perhaps that will take some of the heat out of what could be an interesting discussion. Cheat-sheets are ok in certain circumstances - I remember friends using them bu taping, say, orders of verses on their guitars The last time I was in an English club I witnessed singers admitting they hadn'e managed to learn the song and still singing it by reading it from a sheet - not acceptable as far as I am concerned The worst practice was singers calling up texts on their mobile phones - why do they bother? I watched MacColl perform regularly for over twenty years and, towards the end of his life I began to notice his memory for words go, but I doubt if many other people noticed it. Ewan learned his songs by absorbing them as complete pieces - stories -when the set texts escaped him, he improvised. I noticed this happening because I had heard his songs so often down the years - on several occasions he would grin across the room when he made a slip and he saw I had recognised him doing it. Warm memories, if a little sad Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Joe Offer Date: 04 Jul 17 - 07:04 PM It's interesting to note that some people refer to "memorizing the lyrics" and others to "learning a song," and they are referring to the same thing but displaying different value judgments. I admit that it's a good thing to memorize the lyrics to a song - I just don't do it very well, and I hate to have to stop a song in the middle because I've forgotten the lyrics. I feel like I've learned a song when I can sing it well. I sing in a church choir most Sundays, and I've been singing most of our songs for years. I often don't hold a hymnal, because I don't like knocking it into the head of the woman in front of me - but I occasionally glance at her music to avoid mistakes, even though I have most of the songs memorized. When I sing folk music, I use "cheat sheets"; but again I glance at them for help when I need it and don't need to read much. That's what I feel comfortable with. That's my choice of how I do it. Judge me from the quality of my singing, not on how I obey or disobey your expectations. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Brakn Date: 07 Sep 16 - 06:19 PM If you can't be bothered learning the words don't expect others to listen. Worse is when they want you to help them out with a chorus that they couldn't be bothered mastering. Even worse still, "let me find the lyrics on the internet, won't be a moment". Singing with a phone in front of you face? Nah |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Backwoodsman Date: 07 Sep 16 - 04:16 PM In the past, I've defended readers, having been one myself, who use lyric sheets as a safety net - simply to pick up a line occasionally when they 'dry'. I find a singer 'ummm-ing and aaahh-ing' while he/she struggles to recall a line far more frustrating and irritating than an occasional glance at a lyric sheet to refresh the singer's memory. Nowadays, I make strenuous efforts to learn my stuff, and to re-learn stuff I haven't performed for a considerable time, and I mostly manage without a prompt. But there are occasions when I need to quickly refer to a prompt, and I regard the ability to do so pretty surreptitiously, and without detracting from the performance, as being part of the performer's art. But, like 'GUEST: For it is he', I very much deplore the practice which some singers have of performing songs, seemingly with little or no rehearsal, by reading the entire song (including the three or four very basic chords required), from a book propped up on a table stand or, even worse, one of those huge black music stands with holes in it, and almost always struggling to make a decent fist of it. No attempt at 'performance', no eye contact with the audience, no 'feeling' in either the singing or the playing, hiding behind the book - just awful. Someone above moaned about the modern usage of iPads. I find my iPad very useful for my set-lists (using the OnSong app), and the by-product of the set-list feature is that, as one works one's way through the set, the lyrics are displayed in set-list order so, although I'm not 'reading' the songs, I have my 'safety net' in case of the occasional 'dry'. And an iPad is considerably less of a barrier between performer and audience than one of those sodding great black built-to-withstand-a-nuclear-explosion music stands! |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,Pete from seven stars link Date: 07 Sep 16 - 01:44 PM In my experience, though i still have the music stand, for well established songs it is more a safety net than of continual use. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Rumncoke Date: 07 Sep 16 - 01:42 PM I've been pushed to memorise my songs - to which I reply 'where do you think I got them from?' I used to be able to steal anyone's song at one listening, but that was then, I have done my best, by writing them down in my book - but these days, if I am going to sing, it is from my book. I have always suffered a little from stage fright, so it might be a relief to be prevented from singing, and in my declining years just sit back and let the younger ones get on with it. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,For it is he Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:33 AM A reminder cum prompt is one thing (blue tac'd notes on guitar with key, first line etc) have been part of my style for almost forty years. I also sympathise with those who perhaps cannot physically retain words. But increasingly, it has led to less need to practice with the resultant drop in quality. If you have to learn a song, you end up crafting and honing it. A singaround I sometimes go to has at least three people I know who sight read three chord wonders for the first time, badly, rather than learning and therefore trying to entertain with songs. The saddest part is, all three of them are capable of us enjoying their songs rather than timing the emptying of my glass accordingly. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Acorn4 Date: 07 Sep 16 - 03:16 AM And now, of course, we have the dreaded ipads! |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 06 Sep 16 - 07:37 PM It is hard is hard to imagine....one signing from a script. The decent church choirs I know, are memerized and learn new material continuously, on a weekly basis. If...you require a script ... there are places within the service for you....BUT....You better be pretty DANMED Good Sincerely, Gargoyle choir/organ overtones make a "goose walk over my grave.) |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,Ebor Fiddler Date: 06 Sep 16 - 06:53 PM I am very much in the "if you can't be bothered to learn the words, shut up and let somebody sing who could be bothered" school, and at one time, I too had a large repertoire in my head of 200 or so. Most of them are still there, but occasionally I get asked to sing something I last sang forty years ago, but can't drag it out from where it's hiding. My current answer is to learn it again, but as my memory is imperfect, and - quite frankly, I no longer have the time to produce a new song each week, as I used to - my answer is to print off a version that I think I know and amend this until it is the version I think I knew, and learn from there. But Shhhh! I stick the printout in my pocket as a memory aid for the odd word, or line! Chris B. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Uncle Tone Date: 06 Sep 16 - 03:39 PM Organisers of a club I used to attend all read the words of every song. One regular reckons he knows hundreds of songs. No he doesn't. He doesn't 'know' any of them. He just performs them. He reads the words and chord-shapes. I am aware that memory fades as we get older. Mine does. I have even woken up in the middle of a song and not known what song I was singing, let alone what the next line is! But I will fight off the temptation to read the words. I will rehearse the songs until I think I know them well enough to perform them in public (again). There was a time when I could hold about fifty songs in my head out of about 200. It's down to about twenty now. So I try to rotate the sing-able list now and again. It is said that musicianship and deliberate use of the memory helps to fight off dementia. Use it or lose it. But if you do habitually read the words, then you are unlikely to pick up any guest bookings. You are more likely to remain a humble floor singer. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics and Memorization From: Genie Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:30 PM Howard, having a brain fart and blanking on the beginning of a song or verse does not imply lack of preparation or even any general memory deficit. It can happen with a song you know by heart and have performed dozens of times. Usually all you need it a trigger (e.g., the first word or phrase of the verse, and having a "cheat sheet" serves that purpose. But having a piece of sheet music or a lyrics/chord sheet can also work. (When I've learned a new song and have done it a number of times from memory, I find that having a very large print lyrics/chord sheet visible nearby the first few times I perform the song in public actually helps me perform it well and without error, even if I don't even look at it. It relieves the distraction of not being sure whether I'll blank on a part of the song; just knowing it's there helps me concentrate on what I've committed to memory and on my performance and the audience.) As Stewart says, just occasional glances at that song sheet can suffice and need not be distracting. (RUS isn't very good here, because it's not formatted for that sort of use and doesn't make it easy to quickly find the key word or chord you're looking for.) I agree about RUS - and even bigger print song books - in song circles encouraging people to try to participate without preparation. For one thing, if you're looking at the book/page instead of whoever is leading the song, you can't watch their mouth for cues (e.g., phrasing, pauses in the song) and you may well be singing different lyrics or using different chords because you're following the printed page and not the performer. So I really do understand why the event organizers "encourage" you not to use RUS but do say it's OK to use a cheat sheet or the like if you need to. If you feel too restricted by the post-payment notification of these rules, I'd say you should ask for a refund. But it sounds to me like you could enjoy the music event within these late-notice guidelines. Genie |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM Taking Lynn's comments on confidence further, a question of experience arises in respect to memorization. Perhaps the way forwards on this thread is to share our thinking on how to memorize. For myself, I have a trained visual memory which although not eidetic is very, very good. I developed it when young using a card game often known as Pelmanism, dealing a shuffled pack of cards out face-down on a table and then looking for pairs. Complicating it somewhat involves colour-matching, both black 2s, for example. My first read-through on a new piece is to do with what the line I'm singing's doing, musically. The second is how it relates to everything else that's happening. The third comes back to the line and is done slowly, the first time I'm trying the line out loud. It's a sketch, trying to find some anchor points in the piece. Then I work the sections resulting up in detail, deciding how to do it. The next stage is closely related to what the dance world calls body memory. It means going over it time and time again, repeating it until I can do it in my sleep - sometimes literally, it seems. Having it on my mind when I go to sleep helps enormously, my mind integrates it far better. Once I'm certain it conforms to the pro standard in "an amateur rehearses until he performs it right, a pro until he can't perform it wrong", then it's time to take it out and see. What do other people do? |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:06 AM This was strictly a non-profit gathering. The 30 participants paid the Episcopalian retreat center for room and board, but the event organizers received nothing but the joy of making music with friends. So, it was good. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:54 AM Personally, I'm sick to death of people singing from bits of paper. The other day a bloke at our local singaround sang a 15 verse ballad. He accompanied himself on the guitar but he sang from a piece of paper on the seat of a chair in front of him - so he was actually bent over his guitar whilst singing to the chair seat! The guitar playing was competent (if you like slavish Nic Jones imitations) but the words were completely inaudible - all I heard was the guitar riff repeated 15 times and some incomprehensible mumbling. Surely, the whole point of a f**king ballad is the f**king words!! And he was not the only one mumbling through songs written on bits of paper - they're all at it these days. Sadly, I think that I will have to stop going to singarounds - mainly because I don't want to go to prison for common assault; I'm fairly sure that kneeling on someone's chest whilst forcing a piece of paper into their mouth counts as common assault (?) |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: The Sandman Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:19 AM yes, it does have a right or wrong side dependent on circumstances, once the involvement of an admission charge or collection is done the scenario is changed, it is no longer an amateur occupation. Lynne H has hit the treble clef with the music stand, and is right. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:14 AM And as it worked out, the weekend was wonderful. Yes, most of the singers sang from memory, but almost everyone used notes occasionally - just like I do. And people liked my singing and my songs. Our harmonies were absolutely wonderful. We shared the Bishop's Ranch retreat center with a group called Women Making Music, led by Judy Fjell and attended by some wonderful musicians like Malvina Reynolds' daughter Nancy Schimmel. We would sing songs to each other at every meal. Judy spent an hour with us the last day, recording examples of our harmonies to use as a teaching tool. A good time was had by all. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Musket Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:55 AM Joe, you have hit the nail on the head when you distinguish. To an onlooker, is there any difference between performing and "going to singarounds?" It could be argued that some see it as swapping songs and keeping them alive in the oral tradition, whilst others like the idea of performing in front of others. Hence this discussion can't really have a right and wrong side. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:07 AM Sorry, Lynn, I just don't buy this slavish adherence to the "rule" that one must memorize lyrics for any song one dares to sing at a singaround. I go to singarounds to try out new stuff. When I perform for an audience, I generally know the songs by memory - but I have to sing a song for other people a number of times before I have it down. Generally, if people hear me, they enjoy what I sing....unless they have their minds made up already because they're tied to their silly rules. If you want to evaluate a singer, listen. You might just like the song they sing, even if they've defied your songsheet prohibition. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,LynnH Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:26 AM ...and how are they ever going to gain the required confidence if they continually capitulate? Like learning to swim, there comes a time when you have to venture into the deep end of the pool. Bite on the bullet! |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Apr 14 - 03:00 AM I think most of us would say that memorization of lyrics is a good thing - no question about that. The trouble is, some of us just don't have the confidence to sing without a lyrics sheet - so in many singing sessions, we don't feel "good enough." And as a result, we don't bother. Some of us stop trying. And some of us limit our singing to church, where people are required to be nice. But I'm off to my music gathering tomorrow, welcome or not. Chances are pretty good that I'll have a wonderful time, but the "restrictions" put an unpleasant edge on it. Still the people always love my summer camp songs, which I have sung without printed lyrics all my life. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,Al Zymer Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:13 PM OK, poor example - but what I mean is that when Wogan was on TV (not moderating conferences), like many before and since he had clearly been directed to look at the camera exclusively. The relevance is that the audience must feel the same as people watching a singer sing to a music stand. Cream cheese, yeah. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Musket Date: 06 Apr 14 - 10:06 AM Not wanting to digress here, but Terry Wogan is a poor example. His value to producers is his ability to ad lib. An excellent spontaneous entertainer. He moderated a health conference I was a speaker at a couple of years ago. If there was ever a script, he must had memorised it beforehand. He certainly knew the agenda in his head. He introduced us all with no notes, including our backgrounds as if he knew us personally and was question master at the plenary session with no notes at all, including referring to things we had said during our own speeches. Sometimes, there are reasons why the cream goes to the top. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: GUEST,Al Zymer Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM I can remember words OK, and it's true that it gets easier with practice - to the extent that you find yourself remembering songs you didn't know you'd actually learnt - but what I can never do is remember what a particular song is called, so I end up carrying a list of titles around. As for the OP, using a music stand etc., is fine, even for a concert pro AS LONG AS YOU ENGAGE THE AUDIENCE, which is the whole point. Powerpoint presentations back in the 1990's where the 'presenter' read the slides off the screen rather than using them to illustrate the talk are also seared into my memory. Certain TV entertainers are likewise unable to do anything but talk to the camera when in front of a live audience. Terry Wogan was one example. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Tattie Bogle Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:35 AM I have a better memory for tunes than words, and like Joe, like to sing a lot of different songs, so this does mean that I will use words on occasion, but again, use them as a glance-down prompt rather than wholesale reading off the page. In some sessions I go to this seems to be the norm, in others the exception. On the rare event that I get a floor spot, I will try to sing songs that are firmly in the memory bank. Not every song I memorise remains in there sadly. Paper-shufflers are a pain, and even more so those who leave it until it's their turn to plough through a massive folder, mumbling "oh, I don't know what to sing". They should be made to miss a turn! Mobile phone fiddlers, tweeting, texting and Facebookig while others sing, are also extremely rude: phones should be off and firmly away during sessions, unless, as one angry session host remarked, " you are on the waiting list for a heart transplant"! Joe, I would still go to your gathering: you've made your point and it would be a shame to miss something you otherwise enjoy. And take a small selection of lyric sheets to glance at. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: Musket Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:06 AM As ever, it depends on whether you are sharing a song or entertaining people. Different people see themselves in different categories. I suppose at a singaround there is room for both. |
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Subject: RE: Reading Lyrics vs Memorization From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 05 Apr 14 - 08:33 PM The reasons we've got all these folk variants is because people mostly sang and passed them on from memory rather than relying on the broadsheets they might have picked up. And more often than not the variants are a lot better than the originals. That's more or less what that term "the folk process" adds up to. And long may it continue. Most singarounds I've been in over the years have been overwhelmingly made up of people singing from memory. No rules about it, just generally the custom. |
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