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Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets
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Subject: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Jack Campin Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:19 PM A thread to post links to full-on professional singers doing what some folks here claim a professional would never do. To start, Joan Baez on Italian TV |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,Don Firth Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:19 PM Something a professional would never do--except--under special circumstances, such as singing a song in a language foreign to them for a special event. A professional does not, in general, use cheat sheets. One owes it to the audience, save on these rare special occasions, to learn the song. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:50 PM Jack - How many songs do YOU sing in another language ? (Without a crib sheet) |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 10 Apr 14 - 03:56 AM John McCormack the celebrated Irish tenor usually sang from a little songbook, as in this clip from "Wings Of The Morning". here And I believe he was a professional..... |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Apr 14 - 04:04 AM Merritt Herring, a legendary traditional singer on the West Coast of the U.S., sang from a binder of lyrics in his last years. I believe he took pride in singing from memory in his younger years, but he used his home-made songbook when I knew him. I'd pay a lot for a copy of that binder. Every song he sang was a gem. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Jack Campin Date: 10 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM Jack - How many songs do YOU sing in another language ? (Without a crib sheet) Two that I can think of right now - one in Turkish (where I do know what every word means) and one in Basque (where I know the gist but it's basically by rote). Both rather shorter than "Marinella", though. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: G-Force Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:00 AM I believe this is now normal practice for Van Morrison. Not that it bothers me. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,Derek Schofield Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:23 AM In England, the Copper family have long used the song book to sing from, but I think this is more a case of emphasising the importance of the song book in family history - they usually seem to know the words well enough. Roy Bailey relies on song words now, as does Norma Waterson on occasions. Both of these singers are excellent communicators with their audiences and the song books do not get in the way of that communication. I've also seen singers who rely on the words who sing with their head stuck in the book, not looking up and not communicating. Sad. Derek |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Nick Date: 10 Apr 14 - 05:43 AM I have a live Sarah Vaughan album where the guy who introduces her specifically states at the beginning that she will be reading the words that she is singing. I think she counts as a good singer. It was at the height of her powers and she was singing in English not a foreign language |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Will Fly Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:10 AM I don't care two hoots what famous people do. When I'm in a folk club watching a floor singer who will probably perform, at most, two songs during the whole evening, I don't expect to see them using a prop. Each to his own. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:33 AM A "sheet taboo" can have two distinct motives:
(Computer monitors hidden behind a column or other equipment can serve as prompters nowadays, replacing the good old cue cards.) |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: johncharles Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:01 AM The could be a whole new scene, Karaoke Folky with backing tracks and a little bouncing ball to indicate when the words should be sung. john |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Dave Sutherland Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:25 AM What Will said. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,OldNicKilby Date: 10 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM What is just as bad if not worse is the dreaded Palm Top that scroll's at the speed of the "Singer". Best solution I ever saw was at a Morris do when a "Singer " had their crib sheet torched. After that the books seemed to disappear |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST Date: 10 Apr 14 - 08:09 AM Like it or not, the world's most famous arena touring singers, have been discretely using on stage autocue screens scrolling their song lyrics in real time with the live band's performance [conveniently located front of stage amongst sound monitors] for at least the last 20 years.... This is an accepted vital part of on stage touring equipment. One major British artist openly admits he depends on this technological aide memoire, as his memory for his own extensive back catalog of self written complexly poetic lyrics is failing with advancing old age. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: RTim Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM I have seen video of both Luciano Pavarotti and Richard Thompson sing from words, so if occasionally it is good enough for them, occasionally it is good enough for me - and I only use verse first lines as a back up. Tim Radford |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Nick Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:24 AM Also saw Steve Knightley on Friday who got out a song sheet for a recently written song 'just in case he forgot it'. He didn't. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Nick Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:24 AM Also saw Steve Knightley on Friday who got out a song sheet for a recently written song 'just in case he forgot it'. He didn't. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Stringsinger Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:25 PM I have heard "singers" perform from memory, as opposed to those who used "cheat" sheets, preferring to hear a good performer who "cheats" over one who has an eidetic memory for words but is boring to sit through. A rigid approach to folk singing is counter-productive. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Deckman Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM About two years ago I attended a house concert in the Seattle area given by a well known male trio. During the set-up, they ran an extension cord to a music stand and plugged in a lap top computer. During the first half of the concert they almost did each other bodily harm as they stumbled, reached, blocked each other and squinted to read the words from the computer. After the first two minutes it was no longer funny. Half the audience left at the intermission. I left with them. I think it's important to state the difference between a "jam session" (where crib sheets are very welcome) and a "concert" where folks pay good money to see a "performance." bob(deckman)nelson |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Doug Chadwick Date: 10 Apr 14 - 02:14 PM A 'crib' sheet suggests something to be referred to occasionally during the song, perhaps to note which verse comes next or similar. Joan did not seem to engage with her audience at all, her eyes looking down, reading from the sheet throughout the song. Also, she committed the sin of arriving on stage with her guitar out of tune, having to make several adjustments before she was ready to go. Still, it was a beautiful song, well sung and I thoroughly enjoyed it, song sheet or not. Just one question, why is it that song sheets are such a no-no in folk music when classical choirs would never been seen dead without each choir member holding a large book of words/music, even if they were singing "Happy Birthday to You"? |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 10 Apr 14 - 08:54 PM Jack you don't know ....J about S..... It has been my opportunity to attend "readings,walk-throughs,cold calls, that would place an insecure performer in a tail-spin if published. Focus on Ms. B's performance. Sincerely, Gargoyle "Criticizing people is unhealthy for the critic. He develops such a keen scent that amid a thousand excellences of any program, he looks to one solitary defect and holds it up to mockery. He becomes a scavenger. (GIL HAMBERT) |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:27 AM Performing from sheet music or a songbook is a skill that has to be learned. The fact that professionals learn this skill isn't an excuse for those who haven't to sing to a piece of paper rather than their audience. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: JHW Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:38 AM Choirs maybe but they have masses of material to contend with, not individual repertoire. Last time I saw 'Messiah' three of the imported soloists read from their score. The Alto never opened her copy and was way way ahead of the others in her performance. Singing songs you don't know is another nail in the coffin of folk clubs. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: The Sandman Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:58 AM we had a trad festival here in BALLYDEHOB last week,although during the course of the festival i had one paid gig. I did some impromptu singing just for fun During a tunes session, i decided to sing one song, so i was in the position of floor singer, I sang Bushes and Briars, and in one verse I had to make up some words, no one noticed, in my opinion to some extent that is what performing is about, I kept my cool and ad libbed remembering the gist of the song and fitting the words to the meter. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: meself Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:01 AM 'a "jam session" (where crib sheets are very welcome)' When I come to a session and see binders and sheets, my heart sinks - because I know that half the evening will be spent watching people shuffling through papers looking for something that they 'know is in there' - and the other half will be spent listening to them bumble through the first verses of old pop songs, before they give up - only to start looking for one they 'really know'. On the other hand, if I arrive to find no sign of sheets or digital devices, my heart soars - because I know it will be a good session. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: BrendanB Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:53 AM I sing in a folk choir and we have a rule - learn your part and no crib sheets in performance. I greatly approve of this because I think it helps us to improve communication with the audience. The group that I sing/play with has the same rule for the same reason. However, I see no problem with a performer using a crib if it helps them to turn in a good, entertaining performance. I avoid sessions where players depend on books, folders etc. They screw spontaneity. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,MikeL2 Date: 11 Apr 14 - 02:28 PM Hi GSS <" I had to make up some words, no one noticed, in my opinion to some extent that is what performing is about,"> I couldn't agree more. I had to do that sometimes but managed to keep up my performance. On one occasion I actually forgot the tune of the song I had introduced. I just sang the words to a tune I made up as I went along. All performers whether professional or not make mistakes. But the best ones make only a few and know how to cover them up. Cheers MikeL2 |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 11 Apr 14 - 02:28 PM I suppose that if you attend sessions where you have lots of performers who don't need music/words at all, you can afford to be picky about who you allow to participate. the rest of us can find a singaround or open mic that is only to happy to accommodate the less confidant. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,MikeL2 Date: 11 Apr 14 - 02:33 PM Hi There is a difference between using a crib sheet just in case you forget something, than bringing a song sheet because you couldn't be bothered to learn the song. But I would listen to Sarah Vaughn whatever way she decided to perform!!!! Cheers MikeL2 |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Jack Campin Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM Maddy Prior and band, 2003 That one is surprising. Surely, like me, she'd have half-known it years before getting the gig. It wouldn't have taken me long to learn it properly. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Janie Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:30 PM Well said, Stringsinger and Garg, in your footnote. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: JHW Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:38 PM " I had to make up some words, no one noticed, in my opinion to some extent that is what performing is about," I couldn't agree more. Me too - is it time for a thread 'Agreeing with GSS' |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:03 PM I've just finished several weeks working on a project with a big chunk of Bellowhead. They work from scores at first, then allow their inner musician to take over and take the music where it's got to go to in performance. I was fortunate, being able to sight-read, my run-throughs took no time, making the project viable: if we'd wasted the same amount of time on me we did on those who couldn't read. The dots are there to tell each other what we ought to start from, they're not some kind of Midi code dictating every nuance of a performance. That's where those who only work from a score go wrong, they're not musicians, they've traded their souls to a machine. It's like reading a book outloud in a monotone: you have to add your own interpretation and expression, to bring it to life. So yes, use the dots, and perhaps have them available if your memory fails because the interpretation has strayed a bit far from the score. But in principal, know what you're doing and don't do it unless you do. You don't expect actors to read from their scripts on stage, the only difference is that they aren't constrained by the somewhat artificial constraint of the musical conventions. I know only too well that where we sing from in our brains is not where we speak from, but the principle remains the same: it has to be you performing, not the composer. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Janie Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:44 PM Agree, Guest. Some here seem to be asserting, and perhaps I misunderstand, that it is impossible for it to be "you" who is performing if you need or prefer a cheat sheet. If that is what they assert, I disagree. I don't understand either/or thinking. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Edthefolkie Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:08 AM One celebrated singer I recall using an aide memoire was Peter Bellamy performing songs from "The Transports". He had a music stand for his little book too. I guess that when Sandy Denny recorded "Tam Lin" she had the words in front of her! Martin Carthy has been known to use a tablet (a small configurable flat screen, for the traditionalists among us). If the above don't pass muster, even Joseph Taylor used to forget the words occasionally. Mind you he was a bailiff, not a folkie. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,DTM Date: 13 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM I have a poor memory and it's deteriorating as I age. Although I don't like doing it, I sing with my eyes closes. There is one benefit, I can squint at my lyrics sheet if required. Crib sheets are better than having someone looking at the ceiling in the middle of a performance trying to remember the next line, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,DTM Date: 13 Apr 14 - 07:15 AM I have a poor memory and it's deteriorating as I age. Although I don't like doing it, I sing with my eyes closes. There is one benefit, I can squint at my lyrics sheet if required. Crib sheets are better than having someone looking at the ceiling in the middle of a performance trying to remember the next line, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: johncharles Date: 13 Apr 14 - 10:36 AM repetition aids memory. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Lighter Date: 13 Apr 14 - 11:27 AM A crib sheet in your pocket in case you forget the words in front of an informal audience is one thing, or singing from the page while you're recording for an absent audience. But if you're an adult and don't know the song, don't make us sit and listen as you try to learn it on our time. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: The Sandman Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:06 PM practice,practice and practise again, if you are not feeling well or tired do not sing, it is only people who are getting paid that have to try and perform when they are not feeling well or tired, in my experience in these situations try not to drink much alcohol. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: The Sandman Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:09 PM here is another suggestion try using mental yoga exrcises for improving memory. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Janie Date: 13 Apr 14 - 12:11 PM Really? I don't think needing or wanting a cribsheet necessarily indicates a performer doesn't know a song. Performance anxiety and what happens in the brain with age can both lead to lapses of memory - no matter how well a person may have learned the song. I suppose there comes a time with even the most well-known and applauded performers reach the point through the aging process when they really ought not be performing in large venues anymore or expecting people to pay big bucks to see them. (From what I have recently heard, BB King comes to mind - but that goes well beyond using a cribsheet for the lyrics.) I agree that a paid performance is not the time or place to learn a song. I don't think using a cribsheet is an unforgiveable sin, however, and don't think some one using a cribsheet necessarily, even usually among celebrated singers, suggests they are "learning it on our time." Not saying it has never happened. But hard to believe a singer who is celebrated can be routinely accused of learning their songs on our time. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:16 AM I'm 59, but don't have that memory problem: I just learned over 100 pages in that Bellowhead piece. It can be done. My problem was that a careless Jordanian academic gave me her laryngitis a week before the gigs: technique carried me through. I think it's a matter of pride: if you're not ready, don't do it. Know why and anticipate the problems next time. Performance nerves are just a cop-out: you should be attuned to the venue and audience, but those are empathic nerves, and should help your assurance: anything else should be ignored. Your first task is to grab the audience' attention: there's nothing worse for you than a gang more concerned with fighting their way to the bar than what you're doing. In such circumstances, there's an argument for busking till ready, doing something you fancy rather than something in the program. If the organisers are so disorganised as not to have got the audience settled by the time they want you "on", then that's their problem. But even then, you still have to grab them, and that needs musicianship, and the root of that is knowing what you're doing. In the worst of cases, recognising a failure can even be a positive experience. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Lighter Date: 14 Apr 14 - 08:25 AM > musicianship ... is knowing what you're doing. Well said. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,steve baughman Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:49 PM Interesting discussion, thanks for having it. I think we misstate the problem when we cast it in terms of "profesisonalism" or by compiling lists of celebs who do and don't use cheat sheets. The real question, IMHO, is to what extent (if any) cheat sheets undermine listener experience. Imagine a stand up comic reading her lines, or a joke party where folks are reading their contributions from a book. I suspect this would knock a good 30% of our experience as listeners. Why might we think it is different with singing? Memorizing the song is not always feasible and it is almost never easy. But it tells the audience that we love the music and them enough to do so. There is a cost in using cheat sheets. And although sometimes it may be worth paying, we do well to recognize that it is not always so. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: Jack Campin Date: 14 Apr 14 - 06:12 PM Imagine a stand up comic reading her lines Les Barker |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,Steve baughman Date: 14 Apr 14 - 09:43 PM Bingo! Nice, and it would've been 30% better without the notebook. :-) My point is, let's not just assume that there is no cost to reading. |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:30 AM "In the worst of cases, recognising a failure can even be a positive experience." Boy, have I had a lot of positive experiences! |
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Subject: RE: Celebrated Singers Using Songsheets From: The Sandman Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:05 AM "Bingo! Nice, and it would've been 30% better without the notebook." 50 PERCENT better |
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