Origins: Bunclaudy/Bunclody

Subject: Origins of the song Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:25 AM

Am I missing something?
I'm trying to write a note on the very popular song Bunclaudy and have drawn a total blank on it.
I can only find a single reference to it having been collected in the Roud index (Roud 9665) from Nellie Walsh of Wexford in 1948, under the title 'Streams of Buclaudy' and a version in O'Lochlainn's Irish Street Ballads, but apart from that - nothing.
I am aware that it shares a motif with 'The Cuckoo', but I don't believe there to be any other connections.
I thought that, of all the songs I'm working on at the moment, this would have been one of the easy ones - am I opening the wrong boxes?
Any help on the provenance of the song would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Jim Carroll

---

Roud: https://www.vwml.org/record/RoudFS/S191473

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: MARINER
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 04:52 AM

Could it be 'Bunclody' you are looking for ?.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:11 AM

The town name is Bunclody and there's any amount of references to the song with that spelling. Maybe "Bunclaudy" is just an aberrant variation? There is also "The Maid from Buncloudy" in the DT, but it seems identical to the "Bunclody" versions I have come across. Session.org also refers to an older melody than the one usually heard.
http://thesession.org/tunes/12770
Ross

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:52 AM

There is a reference to Bunclody as a broadside published in 1846 in
this thread.
Origins:MelodyRelation-PollyPerkins/Bunclody?
dated 30th May 2011
(Sorry I dont know how to make a link)

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:53 AM

Sorry - typo in the title
The song is sometimes referred to as Bunclody - other times as The Maid of Bunclaudy/Bucloddy
It's a rather pretty town in Wexford
That
's the song, anyway
Wonder if some kind forum-fairy could correct my error
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:58 AM

Thanks a million Ross - your tip had done the trick
Shouldn't start this sort of work at 7 in the morning
Thanks for all your help
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:23 AM

Hello, Jim.

I have an old edition of O'Neill's Music of Ireland. I'm sure it's a facsimile of the original edition. 1903, was it?

(If you are not familiar with the history of this collection, look it up. It's interesting.)

In the 'Airs - Songs' section there is tune #338, 'The Streams of Bunclody.' It's marked 'moderate' and 'Hartnett.'

I suspect it was collected from a musician named Hartnett.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for that Leeneia
I have a couple of O'Neill's books - I'll follow your suggestions up
I came across the name Hartnett over the last few weeks - I believe he was a music publisher as well as a composer
This is what I've got so far
Bunclaudy (Roud 9665) John Lyons
In spite of this song's popularity, there is remarkably little information on it; the Roud index gives only one example of it, the version recorded from Mrs Nellie Walsh of Wexford in 1948.
Colm O'Lochlainn gives a version of it in his 'Irish Street Ballads, entitled, The Maid of Bunclody and the Lad She Loves so Dear, which he says he learned from his father, who came from Kilkenny.
It seems to have first appeared in print in a Broadside version published in 1846
There is a local tradition that The Streams of Bunclody was written in America by an immigrant from County Wicklow and sent back to Ireland.
We recorded the song several times from Irish Travellers in London. Kerry Traveller. Mikeen McCarthy, gave us a verse with the sting in the tail:

I oft times have wondered why women love men,
And I more times have wondered why men do love them.
But in all of my ramblings I would have you to know
That men are deceivers wherever they go.


Best
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:29 AM

Thanks for that Leeneia
I have a couple of O'Neill's books - I'll follow your suggestions up
I came across the name Hartnett over the last few weeks - I believe he was a music publisher as well as a composer
This is what I've got so far
Bunclaudy (Roud 9665) John Lyons
In spite of this song's popularity, there is remarkably little information on it; the Roud index gives only one example of it, the version recorded from Mrs Nellie Walsh of Wexford in 1948.
Colm O'Lochlainn gives a version of it in his 'Irish Street Ballads, entitled, The Maid of Bunclody and the Lad She Loves so Dear, which he says he learned from his father, who came from Kilkenny.
It seems to have first appeared in print in a Broadside version published in 1846
There is a local tradition that The Streams of Bunclody was written in America by an immigrant from County Wicklow and sent back to Ireland.
We recorded the song several times from Irish Travellers in London. Kerry Traveller. Mikeen McCarthy, gave us a verse with the sting in the tail:

I oft times have wondered why women love men,
And I more times have wondered why men do love them.
But in all of my ramblings I would have you to know
That men are deceivers wherever they go.


Best
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 12:47 PM

in my experience it is known as Bunclody., occasionally the streams of Bunclody
here it is sung by a revivalist singer ,that very very few traditional singers including WalterPardon could better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RPaE0VMtWo
Jim, it is Bunclody., it is in County Wexford.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 12:52 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmH9_kEC51Y enjoy there is alovely version of blackbird of sweet avondale

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 12:56 PM

try 12.40 in above clip.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Noreen
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 06:53 PM

Hi Jim,

Are you aware of the similarities between Bunclody and Pretty Saro?
one of 4 examples of Pretty Saro in the DT

I was brought up with Bunclody from O'Lochlainn's book, and the similarities in wording of Pretty Saro struck me when I first heard it, far more recently.

Thinking of which came first, the notes after Pretty Saro 4 suggest it came from an old English song that went out with settlers to America.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 12:18 AM

Thanks for that information, Noreen. I'm going to try that fine tune on my flute.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 02:43 AM

"Are you aware of the similarities between Bunclody and Pretty Saro?"
I am indeed Leeneia, it was part of the information I uncovered with the help I got here yesterday.
I came across the note from a Sara Gray album (below) when somebody put me right on the spelling of the title.
I never cease to be amazed by the generous response to requests for assistance on this forum
I meant to thank Derrick for the broadside date link - that seems to be the earliest reference to a printed version of the song - thanks again to all
Jim Carroll

2: Pretty Saro * Sara Grey
This was sung by Cas Wallin, Madison County, North Carolina. It has been collected in Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, the Ozarks, Indiana, and Iowa amongst other states. The Frank C Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore suggests that that the odd line "banks of said brow" might be a corruption of the line of the another version which has "the mountain's sad brow". The use of the word "freeholder" places the song's origin in England as the term is not used in the United States.

When I first came to this country in eighteen and forty nine,
I thought myself lucky but I never saw mine;
I viewed them all around me, I found I was quite alone,
And me a poor stranger and a long way from home.

It appears that "Pretty Saro" and its doppelgaenger "At the Foot of Yonder Mountain" are mostly derived from "The Streams of Bunclody." The 1749 date looks good too. There is a local tradition that "The Streams of Bunclody" was written from America by an immigrant from County Wicklow and sent back to Ireland. If this immigrant or a son or daughter or someone who had the song from him was among the early European settlers of the Appalachians, the American versions could easily have been adapted from the immigrant's song. 1749 could be the date of the immigrant's arrival in America, although the stanza with the date did not go back to Ireland or was dropped there. Of course, there are a lot of floating lyrics here, and John Moulden points out the dangers of taking such material as a basis for identifying oral texts as versions of the same song. What one must look for is distinctive stanzas: otherwise there would be just one song of which "Pretty Saro," "On Top of Old Smokey," "The Month of January," "The Wagoner's Lad" and countless others would be examples. But these do have distinctive content and it seems that "Streams of Bunclody" begat "Pretty Saro". [Note from Sara Grey].

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM

Bunclody is an Irish song, even if Ireland was at one time under English rule.
"the use of the word "freeholder" places the song's origin in England as the term is not used in the United States."
it is a term used in all parts of the brirish isles and ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 09:15 AM

Wha???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 09:25 AM

Sorry Dick - couldn't contain my surprise.
Sara isn't suggesting the song is anything other than Irish - she cites it as having been written by an Irish Immigrant in America.
Apart from that - the term 'Freeholder' is fully in use in the United States

Form the Webster's (American) Dictionary
freeholder (ˈfriˌhoʊl dər)
n.
1. the owner of a freehold.
2. an elected official of a county in New Jersey.
[1325–75; Middle English freholder]
Random House Kernerman Webster's College Dictionary, © 2010 K Dictionaries Ltd. Copyright 2005, 1997, 1991 by Random House, Inc. All rights reserved.
The term in fact is English - Anglo-Saxon and originated at the time when everybody in Ireland was speaking Irish.
Sorry and all that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 02:30 PM

Wexford is a very "planted" part of Ireland, and the songs from there - many of them nationalist - have an English sound; songs like The Streams of Bunclody (which has 'freehold' but not 'freeholder', by the way) and Come to the Bower, and even the haunting Boolavogue.

Bunclody has just won the title of the most economically depressed town in Ireland …

It's a gorgeous place, with a stream running through a stone-walled bed in the centre of the main (only, almost) road.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 08:21 PM

No need to be sorry Jim.I hope you liked the clip of the unaccompanied traditional singer in the bunclody clip,I liked it, in fact i liked the whole clip

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Apr 14 - 10:51 PM

Hi, Jim. It's Noreen that deserves the credit for linking Bunclody and Pretty Saro, not I.

When I play the song from O'Neill's, I treat it as a tone poem. It's an unusual piece - every phrase starts with one measure of G and then one of C (or vice versa). I challenge myself to play that differently every time it occurs.

And there's a part in the middle that sounds like a small bird piping.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:01 AM

"Hi, Jim. It's Noreen that deserves the credit"
Thank you Noreen.
I have just come to the end (nearly) of researching around 450 songs in preparation for putting them up on our County library website - they should go up in the next few months.
The amount of help I have received from people like yourselves has been invaluable, especially with some I had despaired of ever finding information on.
Again, thanks to all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Apr 14 - 04:45 AM

my apologies for digressing ,Jim, but i clicked on the report about Bunclody being the worst depressed town, in that report it was stated that Bantry was one of the least depressed. The fact is that two large hotels in Bantry have gone into receivership and are owned by NAMA another old established one has closed, so god help Bunclody, if it is the worst.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 03:46 AM

Been up a mountain in Spain teaching English for a week with limited Internet access (Well - someone has to do it...) and am only seeing this now.

I've always assumed there was a run from "Down by the Green Bushes" ---> "Bunclody" ----> "At the Foot of Yonder Mountain", though I accept the danger posed by floating verses.

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM

Thanks Martin
A you say, the 'floater' problem is a bit of a minefield - wish I had a euro every time I've listened to a counterfeit 'Lord Gregory'
Hope you enjoyed Spain (The White Mountains perhaps?), lovely part of the country
Best
Jim

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 05:12 AM

On this occasion, Spain was the Gredos Mountains, west of Madrid, beyond Avila. Beautiful place. Sang a couple of songs for them during the week - in Irish and English! There favourite is one of Frank Harte's versions of The Spanish Lady - the one that involves counting backwards in two's. Good practice for them!

Regards

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Apr 14 - 12:33 PM

"west of Madrid, beyond Avila. Beautiful place"
Always wanted to go to Avila since I watched Frank Sinatra, Cary Grant and Gina Lollobrigida (hmmmmm) roll the big gun up to the gates
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Reinhard
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:18 AM

This song seems to have two Roud numbers, 3000 with 30 entries and 9665 with two entries.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: The Doctor
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 05:41 AM

It was Sophia, not Gina, but still plenty of Passion.
And Martyn Wyndham-Read recorded a beautiful version of 'The maid from Buncloudy' on his epoymous 1971 Leader LP.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: MartinNail
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:05 PM

Reinhard -- Have you let Steve know?

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 05:01 PM

Bunclody was (re-)popularised by the Emmet Spiceland, a very talented group from the tail-end of the 1960s ballad boom in which subsequent trad Irish (and various other kinds of) music ledgebag Donal Lunny first came to public notice.

Link here

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 05:02 PM

And of course I couldn't even manage to get the blue clicky right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFds2ZNV_U

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 05:09 PM

Bunclody is a lovely-looking little town, by the way, with a stream flowing down the main street. This Irish Times article explains about the moss house.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 05:36 PM

I'll copy the information here from that great Irish Times article, thanks Thompson- in case it stops being accessible.

The Words We Use
Sat, May 3, 1997, 01:00
DIARMAID O MUIRTHE

Oh were I at the moss house where the birds do increase, At the foot of Mount Leinster or some silent place, By the streams of Bunclody, where all pleasures do meet, And all I would ask is one kiss from you, sweet.

Ann Byrne wrote to me recently from Melbourne about the lovely song. She wants to know what a moss house is. She can thank the Wexford historian Rory Murphy and a sweet Bunclody lady, Sarah O'Hara, for answering a question that has been bothering myself for years. Sarah tells me that the moss house in question was made in the last century by Lady Lucy Maxwell on the Carrigduff side of the Slaney at Bunclody. It was made from actual growing trees which were bent over and intertwined to form a beautiful living summerhouse. Several low, shrub-like trees decorated the floor, which was carpeted with thick, soft moss. Hence the name.

Does the beautiful moss-house still exist, the arbour where the young man, wounded in love, wanted to die on the bosom of his beloved? Alas, no. Vandalism has seen to that.

Who were they anyway, the young lovers? She, I once heard, was one of the Maxwells. Maybe. It is why my love slights me, as you may understand, That she has a freehold and I have no land; She has great store of riches and a large sum of gold, And everything fitting a house to uphold.

And who was he? Does anybody know? Mary Byrne and I would love to.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Noreen
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 06:28 PM

I sang this lovely song in the Mudcat International Zoom sing this evening :)

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 05:42 AM

Richard Alfred Milliken’s bawdy version of The Groves of Blarney suggests to me that a moss house might have been a bower where animals bred and where lovers would meet .Thus “where the birds do increase”

There is a cave there where no daylight enters,
Where cats and badgers are for ever bred,
All moss'd by nature, which makes it a great dale complater,
Than a coach and six, or a feather down bed

The Bunclody air is close to the one used for the English song Pleasant and Delightful, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 11:16 AM

Interesting, mayomick.
While you can certainly sing "one song to the tune of another" with Bunclody and Pleasant and Delightful (I've just done it, it's fun!) it is not the same tune, or even close to it as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: mayomick
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 01:33 PM

It's probably just me , Noreen . I do tend to mix tunes up in my head.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 10:05 AM

Here's Luke Kelly singing The Streams of Bunclody.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 06:55 PM

Do "Bunclody" and Pretty Saro belong together?

The DT spells the placename "Buncloudy," which is how Martyn Wyndham-Read spells and pronounces it on his Beyond the Red Horizon album. Does anyone use that spelling?

Recording of "Buncloudy" by Martyn Wyndham-Read:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWbP1nGq458

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: GUEST,Felipa
Date: 29 Mar 21 - 07:24 PM

I myself don't think Bunclody and Pretty Saro are THAT close. They share at least one of the "floating" verses which are also found in other songs. I wouldn't mix up the tunes I know for the two songs, though they may have similarities.

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Felipa
Date: 30 Mar 21 - 06:41 AM

I would say that the air I know for Bunclody is similar to the air I have for the Lakes of Coolfin. But the texts of those two songs are not similar. And lyrics are often sung to different tunes by different people (though for both of these songs, the tunes I know are the most commonly used).

Subject: RE: Origins: Buncaudy/Bunclody
From: Noreen
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 06:32 PM

Joe, it's not the same song so they should be kept separate, but it seems pretty clear to me (and to others above) that Pretty Saro was based on Bunclody.

The DT is the only place I've seen it spelled Buncloudy.
It's a town in Co. Wexford, spelled Bunclody.

The tunes for Bunclody and Pretty Saro have no connection, it's certain distinctive phrases (not floating verses) which I have only come across in these two songs.
The "Freeholder" reference
"If I were ... and could write a good hand" etc.

Subject: ADD: The Maid of Bunclody
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 08:52 PM

THE MAID OF BUNCLOUDY, AND THE LAD SHE LOVES SO DEAR
(Traditional)

Oh were I at the moss house, Where the birds do increase
At the foot of Mount Leinster Or some silent place
By the streams of Bunclody Where all pleasures do meet,
And all I would ask is One kiss from you, sweet.

Oh the streams of Bunclody they flow down so free,
By the streams of Bunclody I'm longing to be,
A-drinking strong liquor in the height of my cheer,
Here's a health to Bunclody and the lass I love dear.

The cuckoo is a pretty bird, it sings as it flies,
It brings us good tidings, and tells us no lies
It sucks the young birds’ eggs to make its voice clear,
And the more it cries cuckoo the summer draws near.

If I was a clerk and could write a good hand,
I would write to my true-love that she might understand,
For I am a young fellow who is wounded in love
Once I lived in Bunclody, but now must remove.

If I was lark and had wings I could fly
I would go to yon arbour where my love she does lie,
I'd proceed to yon arbour where my true love does lie,
And on her fond bosom contented I would die.

'Tis why my love slights me, as you may understand,
That she has a freehold and I have no land,
She has great store of riches, and a large sum of gold,
And everything fitting a house to uphold.

So fare you well father and my mother, adieu
My sister and brother farewell unto you,
I am bound tor America my fortune to try,
When I think on Bunclody I'm ready to die.




Source: The Complete Irish Street Ballads, by Colm O Lochlainn, page 150-151 (Pan Books, 1984 - Original edition published 1939)

Subject: RE: Origins: Bunclody
From: Felipa
Date: 31 Mar 21 - 10:08 PM

Flys fly fitting
problem with the "f" on Joe's keyboard?

Subject: RE: Origins: Bunclaudy/Bunclody
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 01:12 AM

Nope. OCR errors. My OCR doesn't like the letter "f". I thought I caught'em all, but I was in a hurry to go and teach a class, so I missed some.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bunclaudy/Bunclody
From: Felipa
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 07:15 PM

well, now that the f's are fixed, you could delete this message and the previous two.
"OCR stands for 'Optical Character Recognition.' It is a technology that recognizes text within a digital image. It is commonly used to recognize text in scanned documents and images." (Google)

Subject: RE: Origins: Bunclody
From: Reinhard
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 12:26 AM

Joe, could you please correct the town name to Bunclody in the title, as printed in The Complete Irish Street Ballads?

(and then delete this annoying message too, like Felipa's ;-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Bunclaudy/Bunclody
From: GerryM
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 01:57 AM

The town is named Bunclody, but people have recorded the song using a variety of spellings. Perhaps the title should retain all the spellings, so it shows up on searches.

Subject: RE: Origins: Bunclaudy/Bunclody
From: Reinhard
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 04:36 AM

I agree for the thread title, Gerry, but the lyrics in The Complete Irish Street Ballads do have the title "The Maid of Bunclody, ...".