A boring place

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:23 PM

Deja vu all over again.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM

Musket, you again link me to UKIP, such is your desperation to discredit me without being able to challenge anything I actually say.
As you well know, because I keep telling you, I am not even a supporter.

Keith. I have never called Christians God botherers either.
Errr, no-one said you did.
I call God botherers God botherers.
I think that calling people of faith "God-botherers" will make people of all religions feel unwelcome here.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:15 PM

well lets put it this way...

there was nothing in the press about an outraged ex miner grabbing the British premier by the lapels, kicking him or her- and yelling why do you keep starting bloody wars! you insignificant piece of bum fluff! you wouldn't do it, were you own kids fighting in these bloody shitholes for god knows what!

and yet Ake the hermit in a kilt living in the far flung arseholes of nowhere - no one to talk to - except us and the shortbread tin outside his window - he gets it with both barrels and you call him a worm.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:49 PM

Muskie
The longer you feed the troll, the longer he will hang around.
Triplane is right - it gets boring, especially to those not involved
Let them slither back under the bridge.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:21 PM

I read thro this thread in the hope of getting tips about joinery or at least the boring of holes. I have not been disaspointed.
Sadism and masochism are not dead. I had the feeling necrophilic bestiality was dead, but then if I am wrong Im sure someone will correct me. "They dont flog dead horses do they" :]

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:13 PM

Yes. I hate the bigotry of Akenaton. How you can call people perverted for just existing is completely and utterly beyond me.

And beyond every decent person there is. There is a reason BNP only get votes from thugs and gullible bigots, never respectable citizens. There is a reason why the French National Front has stated that Keith's party UKIP have similar ideas to their own.

Keith. I have never called Christians God botherers either. I call God botherers God botherers. Keep your club values in your club. It's when people hide their less nice aspects behind the veil of "Jesus tells me to oppose gay marriage" that gets my goat. It's when children are taught to feel superior to others. It's when God says women are inferior to men.

I don't have to ridicule God botherers, they do it themselves.

Christians are another matter. I see no difference between a Christian and someone who shops in another supermarket to someone else. You know why? Because they don't fortify their sanctimony and less than nice views by saying it's the Tesco way.

You know, gay equality has never been too much on my radar, but some of the disgusting comment on here just got my goat. I suppose I must be feeling slightly concerned back in the real world. I sang Curtains of Old Joe's House and Bruce's Song at the same gig the other night.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 11:17 AM

Al you voiced my thoughts when I first heard that he had "reported" Mudcat, It says a lot for Joe that the creature is still on the forum.

there is only one kind of hatred here, and I think you know where it resides.....

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 11:14 AM

Ridiculing people for their "imaginary friend" and beliefs IS anti-faith ranting and would make people of any faith feel unwelcome.

Musket, the things you claim are not true.
That is why can can not produce a single example of it.
Can you?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:54 AM

"The anti-faith ranting now prevalen"
There is no "anti-faith ranting - here"
Criticising the behaviour of the various churches isn't "anti faith" and it is not only valid, it is necessary, particularly in the light of what is happening in the name of any god you care to name.
"Antisemitism" has been the favourite get-out-of-jail-free for those defending what is happening in Israel today - it is in itself Antisemitic to attribute some of the things happening there as being the actions of Jews rather than those of the Israeli regime.
Like patriotism, it is "the last refuge of a scoundrel".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 10:00 AM

Nothing to do with the law. Reporting incitement to hatred is a public service. I shudder to think that someone could read this by accident.

I still have problems with the concept of the ridicule thrown at me for not accepting posts that use health statistics to give reasons to vilify people merely for having the nerve to exist.

I have problems with posts that clearly lie about sections of society in order to make them appear second class citizens. People genuinely suggesting they are rounded up and forcibly made to undergo tests three times a year. He fucking means it....

I have problems with those who say the posts don't exist when dozens of people have commented on them.

I don't have problems with those who twist my words though. After all, winning debate isn't always last man standing.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Amos
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:51 AM

My apologies for confusing people with a typo. BOSHG should have been BOSEG--a big ole shit-eating grin.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:20 AM

"Observers on this site have a pretty shitty job in keeping us in order sometime when we behave like a bunch of unpleasant schoolchildren - me as much as anybody."

I would support increased and more balanced (and uniform) moderation, to make BS more respectful discussion environment for "all" posters- not just a few. For example,while if may be legal in some natikns to use certain terms- that clearly offends many (or even some), and, while they may be appropriate in some situations, if their use is disrespectful, and hinders respectful discussion (and clearly causes discord) what purpose is served to allow it to continue? Clearly a better approach could be worked out and tested (one that also gave clear directions to posters and moderators, who seemed as puzzled with interpreting and applying rules as others).

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:11 AM

"And that coming from someone who equates Israel to Nazi Germany"
That came from a statement by the head of the Israeli Security Services and was quoted in the film 'The Gatekeepers' last year
Maybe you should report him to the authorities too, while you're at it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM

disgusting repeating of lies by supporters of homophobia like Keith above saying there is no bigoted hate on this website.

I would have to retract my statement if you produced some convincing examples, or even just one.
Why don't you do that instead of just saying "lies" Musket?
Why don't you?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:06 AM

And that coming from someone who equates Israel to Nazi Germany - maybe I should report that to the authorities.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:05 AM

The anti-faith ranting now prevalent on here would indeed discourage Muslims and others from feeling welcome here.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:58 AM

"The "reporters" are making a laughing stock of themselves"
We are all making "laughing stocks of ourselves one way or another (seem to remember you posted reams of 'information' lifted directly from 'Muslim Watch' and 'White Supremacy' - both extreme racist websites, and expected to be taken seriously)
Instead of shouting at each other, this section of the site should be self-regulatory instead of frustratedly hurling abuse at one another, then shuffling off in a huff.
I don't accept that everybody has a right to make swingeing generalised condemnations about other's gender, race or culture - British laws says they haven't (really don't know about the U.S. - a foreign country as far as I'm concerned).
"How can Mudcat debate when moderation precludes sections of society from engaging?"
I do believet a music-based site such as this one would benefit greatly from an input of information and experience from some of the rich musical traditions to be found in some Muslim countries; Mudcat is the last place I'd expect to encounter such people as things stand at present.
I know how it feels to have Irish roots and have to face some of the garbage being thrown around here recently.
Observers on this site have a pretty shitty job in keeping us in order sometime when we behave like a bunch of unpleasant schoolchildren - me as much as anybody.
It's about time we all took a close look at ourselves and decided whether we were people we would like to take home and meet our families.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:47 AM

ln, 1492 Columbus discovered America from the Indians!...It was all Spain's fault!


"While this statement "may or may not" be factually correct, Spain has room to explain its historic exploits and treatmenf of other humans in "the Americas". However, it does not leave other nations and some religions out for simiar consideration.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:46 AM

Musket, Ake is a changed man! Did you not see my post earlier? He no longer believes that homosexuality is a perversion; He does not believe in forced registration and testing; He accepts that homosexuals are capable of love and now only has a gripe with the term marriage. I can live with that. All in all, I think your work is done :-) The power of Mudcat eh?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:27 AM

I haven't reported Joe. I reported incitement to hatred on a website. I don't think Joe said anything that vilifies people just for existing. Ok, an organisation he is a member of does, but society ain't as perfect as it easily could be if it just tried.

I reported to my ISP (Sky) that lack of moderation has allowed I what I allege as incitement to hatred to be published unmoderated. Stonewall, every local authority and The Home Office have details on how to do it, and encourage it as it is responsibility of your ISP to deal with it.

Not sure what you are saying Al. I, same as thousands of others in the past go to Downing St for receptions rather than to record an episode of Moral Maze.

I haven't started a moral outrage. I just cannot and will not accept that hate is tolerated by people who can walk and chew gum at the same time and the disgusting repeating of lies by supporters of homophobia like Keith above saying there is no bigoted hate on this website.

How can Mudcat debate when moderation precludes sections of society from engaging?

If he keeps saying it, people might believe it. Dr Goebbels tried that approach too.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:13 AM

The "reporters" are making a laughing stock of themselves - even more than they already have been. Oops, I had better be careful or I may be reported for saying that.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 08:00 AM

I can't believe you would do that Musket. report Joe to this isp -whoever they are.

he's one of the good guys. what are you thinking of?

Geriatric comics, hermits in the wilds of Hibernia - you remind me of the eejit who reported a pensioner for crocheting golliwogs.

another difference is that Dr King took on the rich and powerful.

there are real bastards out there - most of whom you seem to have rubbed shoulders and done business with. pity this moral outrage didn't surface and erupt on those visits to Downing Street.

we would have heard if it had - it would have been in private eye or the papers.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:58 AM

Musket, there is no "bigoted hate" that I have ever seen on here.
Like those figures you often refer to, only you can see it.

Dave, I referred to the "pervert" false allegation because Musket made it again.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

Sorry about the double posting again - would some kind forum fairy do the honours please
Happy Easter all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

"I fully support Jim. It seems to me that the moderators here only ever tell us off for having a shout at people. They never seem to address the real poison on the forum."
Couldn't agree more
Just thought I'd take this opportunity to state that I have made a formal complaint over the behaviour of at least one of those who I believe have poisoned this forum.
My resignation stays in place pending the outcome of that complaint.
Apologies to all concerned
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:23 AM

Yes, you can tell that by 'Step Dancing'...true story...the feet are going a mile a minute(or kilometer, if you prefer) but the head and shoulders remain rigid. This is indicative of a repressive society

Irish step dancing Showing the type of dancing "indicative of a repressive society"

English step dancing showing the type of dancing that, seemingly, indicates lack of repression :-)

Well done, GfS for showing a singular lack of understanding of the British Isles and for proving once more that we are divided by a common language. I can only surmise that sanity has a different meaning over there!

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 07:02 AM

US, UK and most other countries. It is published media that the owners are accountable for. Any disclaimer to the contrary is subject to whether a court decided it took appropriate steps to moderate comments appearing on its pages that do not reflect the views or position of the owner.

In this case, The Mudcat Café Music Foundation Inc.

Jeri, I'm not being awkward here, I'm asking for common decency in published print. There is no difference whatsoever between a newspaper and a forum. Both countries have legal precedence for that. In fact, they form part of the Abu Hamzir case being tried in a federal court now, and the terms of the extradition from The UK in order for that to happen.

Why am I being castigated for refusing to let bigoted hate go unchallenged? What is it telling us?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 06:38 AM

If you wanted to post it on the internet, you could.
This is not a newspaper. I doubt any would think their readers would be interested, unless their readership liked having their chains pulled.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 03:37 AM

So if I posted a letter in your local newspaper that all Catholics promote buggering altar boys and it is the duty of every catholic to defend their priests whilst encouraging their sexual frustration release, you'd read it and say I don't agree with it but if that's what you assess as the situation from the recent exposure, that's your view.

I wonder how many court cases in California the newspaper proprietor and I will have to put up with?

We defend freedom in The UK. We are signatures to human rights legislation. We defend the right to be free from oppression.

We have laws to enable it. Why ? Keith said it himself. Gay marriage is opposed by many people, so if decency doesn't work, the law has to step in.

A bit like in California in reality. Except we don't let them carry guns and we don't build execution chambers to address freedoms going too far.

Yes. I reported this website via my ISP for failing to moderate incitement to hatred. It means nothing as it is a foreign website and under conventions must carry same legal requirements both countries to require the owner to do something about it.

If and only if a bored person decides to look at the links I provided, they could apply to have The US federal officials require the web hosts to provide IP for those propagating incitement to hate.

This isn't saying they don't agree with something or other. This is saying that something they consider perverted and against natural law is responsible for an epidemic health issue. (Civil cases can also be brought under The Health Act 1999 but don't hold your breath. It was set up to prevent false claims using bad science but was used when a doctor falsified MMR data and published it, leading to fear in the population.

There was a successful prosecution the other week of someone who said on a website that a certain pub was no longer serving soldiers in case they upset Muslims.

Free speech is, by definition in US legal precedence as well as here, the responsible use of free speech. That cases aren't brought against hate in The USA tends to be because it usually reflects mainstream republican politics.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:29 AM

So, Mike, what are you arguing about? I agree that in earlier days, the First Amendment Freedom of Speech didn't mean much in the U.S. But since the extremes of the McCarthy era and with a number of Supreme Court decisions, the attitude in the U.S. toward free speech has changed, to the point where the thinking on free speech in the U.S. is quite different from what it is in Europe. There are civil laws against libel and slander, but it is far more difficult to prove libel and slander in a court of law in the U.S. Libel and slander are not a criminal offense under federal law or the laws of 30 states.

I did NOT say that the U.S. attitude about free speech is better than it is in Europe. I said it's different.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:14 AM

Yeah, well in 1492 Columbus discovered America from the Indians!...It was all Spain's fault!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:52 AM

Regret I feel the need, for far from the first time on this forum, to assert that,

with history from Salem to Southern lynchings up to well into the second half of C20, via slavery, Wounded Knee, Sand Creek, KKK, The Birth Of A Nation, Scopes Monkey Trials +++++∞∞∞∞∞!,

it ill becomes any US-er to strike attitudes about their [apparently to them self-evident] superiority in all legal and ethical particulars to the UK.

As I am not the first to observe, the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave was established on a firm base of slavery and genocide.

Just asking to get shot down!····


···· B-O-O-O-O-M-M-M

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:57 PM

... and if this concept of yours is a Constitutional guarantee, then why didn't it work for so many over the years?: like Monkey Trials; McCarthy; KKK; Alabama Baptists;{usw to ∞∞∞]

You are arguing from the odd premise that if a certain phenomenon has not being verbalised [or its contra has], then its actual manifestation can't exist. I expect there is some philosophical or rhetorical name for such a non seq, but I can't all it to mind at the moment. Any philosophers or sociologists out there can help?

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:45 PM

'MtheGM, the concept of "illegal speech" does not exist in the United States'
,..,
So you don't have any laws of libel or slander or defamation of character then, Joe?

Hmmmm!

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 11:00 PM

The Arrogant/Overt Narcissist

Feelings of superiority and uniqueness ✓

Boastful, pretentious, self-centered, and self-referential behavior ✓

As a result of the need to be 'best' or 'first,' the person with Narcissistic Personality Disorde behaves in, a condescending and [devaluing] manner toward others . . . often combined with arrogance and haughtiness and some may appear snobbish, supercilious, or patronizing ✓

When a person with the arrogant variety of Narcissistic Personality Disorder loses, is criticized, or is contradicted, he or she experiences strong negative reactions, which they may then display to others ✓

Overt responses an arrogant narcissist might display range from dismissal and minimizing of the criticism, to verbal counterattacks, or revengeful plans or actions ✓

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 10:26 PM

Steve Pshaw: "A but you disagree with their views, but that is simply a massive copout when it comes to the likes of Ake, Keith, pete, bobad and goofus, who poison this board."

Hmmm.....aren't you the harmonica player?...You know....you must be...you blowhard and suck at the same time....and still can't carry a melody!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:37 PM

And Steve if you are coming here to fill your need to ridicule people. I really would rather you fuck off and stick that gob iron where the sun has never shone.

While you're at it, you shallow and useless git, would you care to remind us again of those forum rules you were so keen on not so long ago? You really are an embarrassment, Wacko - and so easy to ridicule!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:32 PM

You need to look up "narcissist" in a dictionary, dear boy (or girl - how would I know...) Trouble with you, Bobad, is that you're the master/mistress of the "witty" one-liner. Usually a bloody right-wing, unthinking, bigoted one-liner. I'm struggling to remember a time when you ever posted an argument about anything. You are the archetypal (and troglodytical) example of the unreconstructed bigot. I hope you're happy in your own skin.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 09:00 PM

"the likes of Ake, Keith, pete, bobad and goofus, who poison this board."

Your lack of self awareness as to who poisons this board is laughable but then that is the hallmark of a narcissist, isn't it.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 08:34 PM

About two thirds of the stuff I post gets deleted, and has been for several years. Probably by these All-American defenders of diversity.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:31 PM

Thanks, Ed. It sure seems complicated. It seems that according to UK law, a lot of the antireligious stuff posted at Mudcat would be subject to prosecution. Maybe some of the anti-gay stuff, but I dunno.

Whatever the case, I guess it makes me glad Mudcat is in the U.S., where we don't have to split those hairs.

Think I'd better go back to talking about locomotives....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:12 PM

Wikiipedia has a reasonable summation, Joe.

Hate speech laws in the United Kingdom

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

When it comes to picking people to expose and ridicule, I'll pick bullies over bigots any or day.

And Steve if you are coming here to fill your need to ridicule people. I really would rather you fuck off and stick that gob iron where the sun has never shone.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

I have friends with British origins, and I frequently bitch, whine, piss, and moan to them about British assholes (arseholes) on Mudcat, but for the record, let me state that this is like any other stereotype. There are maybe 5 or 6 persistent British fuckwits. I think there are at least as many US ones, but it's a different brand of fuckwittery. While there are loads of current and former British people here who post sane messages and show respect for people, and a refreshing lack of obsession with particular subjects, the 5 or 6 British fuckwits post more messages in a day than most sane ones post in a month... maybe sometimes a year. They're the ones who get noticed, and the nice ones don't. I know very well I'm talking about a very small minority.

Dave, we get it. You have different beliefs about what "free speech" means.
What you don't get is that Mudcat is physically located in the US, created and owned by a citizen of the US who was raised in the US, and that's why "free speech" at Mudcat is not just the nice words, or the ones you approve of, and we aren't going to change things because a few people think the world should work the way THEY want it to.

...and what happens when you shout "bigot" at someone is that it gets louder for a while.
...and anybody who thinks going after people they think are bigots on a music website is any better than sitting in an armchair is really clueless about the fact you can screw around on the internet while ass-rooted in an armchair.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 07:00 PM

I repeat. This is not about wanting to "silence" anyone for their bigoted views. This is about certain people on this board, mostly of good intent one presumes, attempting to silence people who want to expose and ridicule bigots. That is the tenor of all these recent discussions. It's all very well saying in very, very mild language that you like person A but you disagree with their views, but that is simply a massive copout when it comes to the likes of Ake, Keith, pete, bobad and goofus, who poison this board.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM

M~

When I took Political science in, Canada in 1975. I was taught that the *right* of free speech was unique to the US as compared to the British Commonwealth and most if not all other places. Is there a constitutional document that guarantees free speech for all citizens in the UK? If there is. I would be interested.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:17 PM

MtheGM, the concept of "illegal speech" does not exist in the United States. Apparently, it does exist in the British Isles. Some Mudcatter told me he reported Mudcat to some authority for permitting "illegal speech."

So, yeah, there are differences.

So, is it or is it not illegal to say certain things in the British Isles?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:55 PM

Look out, 'BS: The Mother of all BS threads' here we come!!

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:54 PM

Joe Offer: "I said above - The mentality of the British Isles: suppress anything that isn't acceptable, and it will go away and life will be wonderful."

Yes, you can tell that by 'Step Dancing'...true story...the feet are going a mile a minute(or kilometer, if you prefer) but the head and shoulders remain rigid. This is indicative of a repressive society.

GfS

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Apr 14 - 05:41 PM

Come now,Joe: I agree with much you say; and have, as you will know, frequently defended those under attack, and resisted attempts by some to silence them and shout them down ···

··· but I do find something faintly comic in you apparent belief & asseveration that the ancient concept of "Freedom of Speech", which goes back to Ancient Athens at least [despite Socrates! — there are always some parameters set], and has been a principle of our commonweal since time immemorial, is some sort of American monopoly, invented by the Good Ole USofA some time between the McCarthy hearings and the present (& if the latter not your point, then what was your purpose in so triumphantly trumpeting the actual date of McCarthy's activities — if not contradictory of your odd assertions, then what the hell difference how long ago they occurred?). You're not really, seriously, putting such a postulate forward, are you? I really wouldn't want to have to find myself echoing Eliza's all too cogently expressed amazement at you!

~Michael~