A boring place

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:33 AM

I wonder if some of you can't post without going after another individual.

This is a US based site, and some things are different. What you call "incitement to hatred" is often what we call "stating an unpopular opinion". Our definition of "race" is basted on genetics and not country of origin. The "English", for example, are not considered a race because some are white, some are Black, Asian... etc.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:36 AM

Not all that much at odds, Jim, on this occasion. I don't disagree with much of what you say. My point was simply that suspicion of some sections of the community's motivations may not always be racist; but it tends, in my observation, to be your reaction that it is likely to be so: eg the 'their', last word on line 8 of your post above of 0326 am, has occasionally included me when I have simply been referring to no more than such as that Times/last·night's·tv·news report.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 06:49 AM

"I wonder if some of you can't post without going after another individual."
I have made a point of not doing that her Jeri - I fully understand the damage it can do, largely because of my own stupidity in doing exactly what you describe.
That is why I am trying to confine my remarks to specific issues and not who raised them
Mike
None of my comments have been deliberately aimed at you - quite honestly, my estimation of your own position in all this leaves me somewhat nonplussed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:19 AM

I'm going to go at bigots and try to ridicule them. I am going to go at homophobes and try to give them nowhere to go in order to save face.

Carry on defending them Keith and I will carry on tarring you with their brush.

You have no right whatsoever over and above a first time poster for anything whatsoever.

Live with that fucker whilst you are at it. You horrible little man.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

'Cat chasing its tale again?

I really do hope that pun was intended :-)

DtG
-----------------------------------

It was...

Regards

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:52 AM

You have restored my faith in 'catters. Thanks Martin :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM

Musket, I would never defend a bigot or any bigotry.
Jim, no-one has ever told you to refrain from discussing any country's politics, and for the record all your usual accusations are groundless.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:02 AM

It's more like a Manx cat chasing its tale

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM

Jim: I didn't take your comments as aimed at me this time, but they have sometimes been so in the past. In particular, I posted two comments on my view of the possibly baleful influence of Islamism on the 'Unarmed Soldier' thread in June 2013, which IIRC you called 'racist' at the time; although, as I pointed out then and do so again now, Islam is not 'a race' in any meaningful sense, but rather a faith-based philosophy which enjoins certain responsibilities, which many find incompatible with the traditional values of our own society, on its adherents, who are of a variety of entirely discrete races. My position has not shifted since then; so I fail to understand your 'nonplus' as to my position.

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:28 AM

Sorry Mike - thought I had apologised before and explained, Islam is not a race - "All male Pakistanis" is - if you got hit by my buckshot - again, I apologise - not intended for you in that respect.
When push comes to shove, there isn't a great deal of difference between Islamophobia (or any attack on any religion) and racism when it comes to the effect it has on the recipient - but surely not the place to discuss it here.
Personally I find the mixture of religion and political influence (again, whatever religion) fairly threatening - but it is the influence I find disturbing, not any particular religion.
I am struck by the similarity of the present attempts of Muslim attempts to infiltrate Birmingham schools, and similar attempts by The B.N.P., the National Front, and other extremist groups to influence children via leafleting outside schools and by having members of these organisations holding school positions.
I am also struck by the level of reaction to both.
What I would have thought we all wish to avoid is the actions of extremist groups reflecting on entire communities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:32 AM

Your honor, the prosecution rests its case.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:43 AM

To clarify my comment as to the 'relativism' of your position, Jim: at 0326am you wrote of "individuals who are prepared to spend time and effort advocating for their own particular brand of persecution. In the past, the target for their hate campaigns have been Muslims and gays": as if there were some sort of equivalence between these two groups. My point is that objection to any sort of personally chosen sexual practice which differs from that of the objector is IMO [as well as in yours] irrational and regrettable. "Muslims" otoh, as I remark above, present, and represent, an entirely different kind of case. I do not think their acknowledged aims are such as can be pursued without entirely unacceptable degrees of friction and mutual hostility within the traditional parameters of our community, and it is injudicious to pretend otherwise and to try and accommodate co-existence of the two systems within one society. This seems to me an entirely rational statement of fact, not of prejudice, at least worthy of consideration and rational response, and not simply to be denounced as "racism", or as any sort of "persecution".

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable.

Mark Twain

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MartinRyan
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:00 AM

EdT
It's more like a Manx cat chasing its tale

Yep - a double-headed pun.

Regards

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:00 AM

Mike
Any religion, in the hands of fundamentalists, is a dangerous thing - I seem to remember stoning adulterers features sever times in the Christian Bible - can't recall that type of thing happening much in Birmingham - it's all down to how the scriptures (any scriptures) are interpreted and acted on.
As far as the treatment of women are concerned, domestic violence, treating women as "meat"... that seems a feature of all communities and applies to nearly all religious groups and communities in general.
One of the distinguishing features of the Muslim communities in Britain is that they are law abiding, unobtrusive, hard-working and, as was announced last year, the first to declare themslves British and the most likely to integrate into the host community.
It seems unfair to equate the vast majority of them with the behaviour of a handful of extremists.
It used to amuse me when I attended the Herga Club in Harrow all those years ago, taht I had to queue up at the bar alongside a load of young Muslim building workers.
I doubt if anybody could claim that the British behaved as well as the British Muslims do when they are away from home.
Sorry Mike - I don't read the Daily Mail, so maybe I'm a little out-of touch.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:53 AM

No, I don't either! I've always been a Times person. I do take your points. But there is no burking the fact that the faith does lay proselytising injunctions on the faithful. Ask any of the faithful who take these injunctions seriously about this amenable and integrated majority, and they will denounce them as bad Muslims. You know this is true. And I know that such are a minority, but one who can be effective. {It wasn't any sort of majority who knocked the WTC Towers down: it was 5 or 6 men; but they fell down just the same!}. And this fills one with apprehension, as if one were living over a volcano. I don't see how we can live at ease with it. I honestly don't want to be alarmist; and fully accept the fact that they are here, and it is the duty of all to try and make their presence work. No good crying over spilt milk, and all that. Here they are and they're not going away. I'm OK. I shall be dead v soon and I have no children to worry about. But even the Irish Troubles had a sort of recognisable rationale not present in the Rigby incident. Let's hope that such never occurs again. But how high can be these hopes? You will express faith in the ability of the rational majority to be able to control the rebellious elements in their midst. Let's hope you are right. But if all were as calm and comparatively worry-free as you hope, they wouldn't be holding this enquiry in Birmingham, would they?

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:54 AM

Lads ....... Do you realize you are completely off topic?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

Jim gets cross when you tell him that.
He calls in censorship.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:15 PM

"It seems unfair to equate the vast majority of them with the behaviour of a handful of extremists"...
.,.,
Nobody's equating. MERELY FEARFUL OF THE DISPROPORTIONATE POTENTIAL OF THE 'HANDFUL'. [sorry: shift lock, not shout]. If only it were just a matter of 'fairness'!. But 'It's so-o-o unfair,' is a notoriously ineffectual plea. I want to be just & fair to that vast majority. I expect they are as apprehensive, from a somewhat different pov, as I am. So what are they going to do about it? What can they do about it? And do they really want to? Or do not fear to? Is there any record of their community ever actually co-operating with the authorities in identifying this dangerous element within them. I think not. But don't tell me none of them knows who they are. Maybe they are scared. Maybe some of them are more sympathetic to the dissidents than they would like you to think ~~ even if they do drink at that bar in Harrow High St... Glad that afforded you some 'amusement'...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:16 PM

Sorry, Big Mick...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:34 PM

"faith does lay proselytising injunctions on the faithful"
Don't all faiths in or form or another?
I was to be married once, before I left home.
The father of the girl I was planning to marry insisted that I convert to Catholicism, and when that was a non starter, I had to sign to say we would have any children of the union brought up as Catholics - over the wall before you could say "Don't eat meat on Friday"
There are around 300,000 Hasidic Jews in Britain - ten percent of them are orthodox, around 20,000 live in North London - a threat to the British way of life - don't think so - do you?
"Ask any of the faithful who take these injunctions seriously"
I have - the ones I discussed religion with were far more tolerant of other and non-believers than most 'Christians' who "take their injunctions seriously" than I've met, and a damn sight easier to talk to.
"And this fills one with apprehension, as if one were living over a volcano."
It may leave you feeling that Mike - but I suggest that this is more to do with your prejudices than it has reality.
As I get a little tired pointing out, Muslim communities in Britain are noted for their unobtrusiveness, law-abiding nature and their efforts to meld into the community (if they were allowed to).
Thankfully, we have not yet entered into Tom Cruise's 'Minority report' of detaining potential criminals before they commit their crimes.
"Do you realize you are completely off topic?"
Sorry Mick - of course we are - I said it wasn't goint to happen and it has - but it's quite civilised for a change, and I hope it's not boring, but maybe it is.
Let's give it a rest and pick up some other time Mike
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM

Agreed -- except must just rejoin, re your "all faiths in one form or another", & the Hasidim, that Judaism is resolutely & specifically non-proselytising. It is made hard to convert in even if you want to. It's a club. Outsiders not welcomed.

But, yes. Let's have done with this on this thread for now, before poor old Mick has apoplexy!.

See you on another thread some time. Mebbe!

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:53 PM

" before poor old Mick has apoplexy!."
I think he's a damn sight more tolerant than some people - myself included
Sorry again Mick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 12:58 PM

The muslim religion is as diverse as the christian religion,within the christian religion there are many sects, fairly recently catholics and protestants were murdering each other in ulster, yet they are all supposed to be christian.
Please can everyone remember that within the muslim religion there are as many variations as there are in the christian religion, hopefully this is not boring anyone.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:51 PM

'"And this fills one with apprehension, as if one were living over a volcano."
It may leave you feeling that Mike - but I suggest that this is more to do with your prejudices than it has reality'....
.,,.
...& can't resist quoting here the old observation, "Just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they are not out to get you."

Och a-weel. Time will tell. But I shan't be there to say "Tolger-so"...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM

Dick: Xtns murder Xtns, sure; & Sunnis murder Shias. What's that to do with it? All these 'many sects' are bound by the Koran, within which they are enjoined...

Oh, wotsa use!

Sorry again...

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:40 PM

I do not claim to be an expert on the muslim religion, but I would be surprised, if all muslim sects took exectly the same view point on womens rights.
I believe that some people are anti muslim, because they see them as a threat, some of these same people also dislike all foreigners.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 02:54 PM

the topic we were off.........is it boring, and are we missing the input of people who pissed off because they didn't like the cut of our jib?

nah...! bollocks to 'em!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 03:42 PM

got to admit....its a drag Bob and Joannie stopped dropping in. you shouldn't have called him a wanker, Jim.

And when Keith made that crack, it's alright ma!(its only a bleeding idiot). I knew he wasn't happy.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 04:04 PM

Well I'm not cheering at the suspicion that "Islamists" are trying to infiltrate (?) schools, but it's quite amusing to recall that Christianity has been doing that exact same thing in the supposedly secular UK so effectively that an act of daily worship in schools is the law of the land.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM

I'm not 'anti-muslim', Dick. Just scared to Shitsville of them... But the instamatic racism-spotter subcutaneously fitted to so many a Mudcatter will have been triggered, I am well aware...

~M~

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:18 PM

Fear 


Rest easy, M the GM, no one should call you a racist, as it is a religion of many world races (including people like you) not a race of people. Fear is a legitimate concern/condition regarding many issues, as the article in the link above explains.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: GUEST,Leadbelly
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 05:35 PM

Hmmm, reading about the second part of this discussion is excactly what I expected.

Will not make a decision about whether it is boring or exciting, but in any case it's not alongside the original thread-title.

leeneia: I'm trying to answer your question next time.

To Al: nice to meet you here again. I still like your wonderful music!

To all others concentrating upon the original thread: many thanks. Naturally, I'm aware of the fact that it is somewhat easy to critizise something but I deeply feel that today Mudcat is no longer so attractive as it was a couple of years ago.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 07:19 PM

Actually, Steve, I shut it down because the only thing happening was the BBOP's were getting redundant in their worn out justifications for being obnoxious, arrogant asses. As to your pathetic challenge, it isn't necessary to prove what is apparent. You seek to challenge me, but I am not the issue.

I note the name-calling in your post. I note the snide last word you indulged yourself in before you shut the thread. How diminishing for you. You're no paragon, are you? I note also your lack of irony in so doing. As for the rest, it's gibberish. I hope you're feeling better.

As for people leaving because they get pissed off, a few points.

1. You do not have to open a thread. If you open a thread that you know will offend you, you're barking mad.

2. If you accidentally open a thread that then seems to offend you, it takes about two seconds to recognise it as such and click to somewhere else. The damage to your sensibilities will be minimal.

3. You do not have the right to not be offended, but you do have the right, and the means, to avoid offensive material.

4. This is not a purely political/controversial forum, not by a long chalk. There are something like seventy threads in front of me on today's page. Most of them are not of interest to me. Some, both above and below the line, definitely are, some might be, so I'll dip in. On the whole, the experience here is pleasant. There are threads on topics which interest me which I no longer visit (for example, one on Israel, another on HIV transmission). Each of those threads is plagued by a complete idiot (more than one in the case of the Israel thread, and Jim will know I'm not referring to him), both of them arch-bigots, and I decided ages ago that the game wasn't worth the candle. But, you see, this stuff doesn't get me down. I'm in control. I avoid stuff I don't want to bother with. Life's too short.

5. I'm a little bit anti-religion. But what I don't do is seek out the bits of religion that might offend me (I'm not easily offended as it happens, which I know can be annoying). For example, as a somewhat anti-religious person, I don't go into Sunday Mass and come out ranting about how terrible the priest was in his sermon. I avoid Sunday Mass. If I came here and gave you a weekly report on the Sunday Mass down the Catholic church in Bude, you'd think I was mad. So all these people who, allegedly, depart from Mudcat because they have sought and found what they regard as nastiness - aren't they doing exactly the same thing? Are they really worth it? Of those seventy threads, I'd bet that sixty-three or four are bereft of "nastiness" in whatever sense you want to view it. So why do people really leave? It isn't an honest conversation this, is it?

6. Musket is dead right: the bigots, the homophobes, the racists, the fundamentalists must not be indulged. They must be ridiculed and confronted. We need to try to make the world a better place and indulging bad people is not the way to do it. And these are bad people. Even the ones who assume a gentle veneer. Soft faces, hard cases. If you're pissed off because you think this forum is worse than it was, try to recognise the people who truly drag it into the gutter. Anyone for a bit of anti-Darwinism now?

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 08:44 PM

Exactly who did I call a name, Steve?

As to shutting it down to get the last word, there are two points that are instructive. 1) I gave everyone a lot of room and time to make their points. I didn't limit the discussion in any way. You voiced your opinion all through the thread. 2) It is my thread. If I think it has run its course, I can have it shut down. We do that for others as well. I have, at the request of the initiator (look it up), shut down threads at their request.

If the shoe fits, Steve, put that sucker on. Now ..... we will not hijack this thread with talk of that one anymore.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Janie
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:03 PM

Have typed and deleted more posts than I care to admit.

For myself, I will simply say I feel increasingly marginalized and unwelcomed here.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 10:57 PM

oh Janie! big kiss and give your bum a cyber squeeze! all these arguments are really daft. arguments between people who have never net each other. how daft is that!

very daft people indeed! its like I was trying to say and obviously not managing it with Divis and Keith. ard, who was no fool, reckoned Divis was a fantasist who didn't know the provisional IRA from Ira Gershwin, and there was Keith getting all worked up. and there were the Yanks treating his utterances as though they were interviewing the wild colonial boy.

late night love and kisses sweetie! don't run away!

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 06:41 AM

Divis and I were actually friends on pm, sharing experiences and joking about the progress of our rows in the threads.

Steve,
Musket is dead right: the bigots, the homophobes, the racists, the fundamentalists must not be indulged. They must be ridiculed and confronted

What a shame you are unable to challenge what they say, instead of ridicule and confrontation.
If only you were capable of winning the argument.

The fact is there are no racists, homophobes or bigots here, just people with different views to you who can not challenge so you denounce them instead.

You see bigotry where there is none.
Who asked you to ride in here and start denouncing people who have been here for years?
We liked things as they were thank you.
Go and save someone else please.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:25 AM

"Just because you are paranoid it doesn't mean they are not out to get you."
Like the old Irish story of the Irish wise woman who laid a curse on a farmer who wouldn't give her water at the time of the Famine.
She told him he would die, and sure enough, fifty years later he did.
Your fear/hate apprehension is both groundless and a clear indication of personal prejudice - whence the difference when it's aimed at "Muslims" rather than Muslim extremists.
I have never had any doubt that it was fear/hate that sent many millions of people to their deaths in the first half of the 20th century and the sad thing that they were all reasonable, civilised people who allowed it to happen.
"If only you were capable of winning the argument."
Still trying to "win" something Keith - why not buy a Lotto ticket?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: bobad
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

"The fact is there are no racists, homophobes or bigots here, just people with different views to you who can not challenge so you denounce them instead."

Keith has got the right of it.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:38 AM

Most certainly. He definitely is to the right of it.

I suppose his lack of understanding of the terms bigot and homophobe explain a few things even if they don't excuse them.

Nobody has been here for years Keith. Everybody sends in each post as their first ever post. No incremental pay rises, you fool.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:44 AM

The world according to Keith
Jim Carroll

"RE MUSLIM UNDERAGE SEX (my title – Jim Carroll)
Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM
Re BRITISH CULPABILITY IN OUTCOME OF THE GREAT IRISH FAMINE
(my title - Jim Carroll)
"YOU HAVE HAD NOT ONE IOTO OF SUPPORT"
Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree.
Massachusetts?"

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:45 AM

This thread is about how our site has deteriorated since ranting people like you came along.
As Joe said, you are incapable of challenging what you disagree with and make up for your inadequacy with mindless attack using just ridicule and abuse.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:55 AM

Jim, if I was a racist would you have to go back over 4 years for a racist post which is not racist anyway?

It has but 3 sentences.
The first states clearly that no-one, least of all me "believes Muslims are all evil, oppressive, chauvinist, paedophile rapists, made so by their cultural upbringing."

The second says that I merely had come to accept what prominent members of that community said about their own culture.

The third asks why you do not heed them, a question still unanswered.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM

"This thread is about"
I take it you cross-posted - I would appreciate your opinion on the fact that the above statements, the first in particular, represent a sweeping attack on, in the first case, an entire racial group, and in the second, two, two ethnic cultures, both would contravene British law if they were made publicly
It really is time you were prevented from turning this site into a sewer.
By the way - if none of this is true, please feel free to report me to a site adjudicator - you really do have a right to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:15 AM

Two bigots post to deny that there are bigots here. Says it all.

Keith, old chap, I doubt that there's anyone here who engages in the argument more than I do. Don't talk rubbish.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:25 AM

Yes it was a cross post Jim.

the first in particular, represent a sweeping attack on, in the first case, an entire racial group

Of course not. Racial groups are not homogeneous so no thinking, intelligent person would ever do such a thing.
I was saying that I had come to believe what those eminent people had all said about their own culture, having no knowledge of it myself.

The second statement referred to the fact that those schools taught that Britain was culpable for the famine even though most historians denied it.

I have never said anything that would be illegal anywhere, and all this has been explained to you many times before.

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:32 AM

Steve, I have never made a remotely bigoted statement, it is just that I have disagreed with you.

If anyone did make one, you could always expose and challenge it instead of just saying "Witch!" or in this case "Bigot!"

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Musket
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

100

Back for part 2 after these words from our sponsor

Subject: RE: A boring place
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

Musket, we are all hugely impressed that you have learned to swear, as most of us did at Infants', but it would be more impressive if you produced one of these bigoted posts and explained what made it so.