Subject: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: GUEST,domjohnson Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:28 AM Hello! So, I've been trying to wade through child ballad 39I - a particularly unusual version of Tam Lin - for a while and thought maybe I should ask here for some interpretations of some of the verses, particularly these three: That we got us between? 39I.26 'The truth ye'll tell to me, Tamlane, A word ye mauna lie; Gin eer ye was in haly chapel, Or sained in Christentie?' 39I.27 'The truth I'll tell to thee, Janet, A word I winna lie; A knight me got, and a lady me bore, As well as they did thee. 39I.28 'Randolph, Earl Murray, was my sire, Dunbar, Earl March, is thine; We loved when we were children small, Which yet you well may mind. In the first of the three, the last two lines are a complete puzzle to me - I know essentially no Scots dialect (basing the rest of the interpretations from what I know of today's North-Eastern dialect which is, of course, very different) so trying to untangle what it means is difficult. Is Janet asking if he is a supernatural being (Another version has this as "If eer ye were in holy chapel//Or christendom did see" which would suggest passing away). As for the last two, I am struggling quite a bit so any interpretations are appreciated. I'm not sure the very last appears in other versions, hence the difficulty! Many thanks (and I hope you all find these interesting) Dom. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: Susan of DT Date: 16 Apr 14 - 07:57 AM That first verse, it sounds to me, as you suggested, that she is asking whether he is human and Christian, rather than an elf or other supernatural being. The second seems to be saying that he is human and noble. The third gives his parentage and says that she knew him as a child. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:04 AM Seems to me that 39I.28 is just reiterating the point, stressed in the other two verses, that he is of human noble birth, also that they were obviously well acquainted before he was whizzed off to Fairyland. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:06 AM I go along with Susan's analysis. I recommend that you read through Child's copious notes on the ballad (E.& S. P. B. vol 1) where he gives an analysis of the plot and a fascinating tour though its European analogues. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: GUEST,Janey Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:12 AM How can it be 391 when there were only 305 in the collection? Why do people refer to songs as "Child Ballads" anyway, he didnt compose ANY of them it's like saying "I've just learnt The Now That's What I Call Music song 35/20 American Pie" |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: Lighter Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:22 AM To "sain" meant to "protect or bless with a ritual sign (as of the Cross)." Janet is asking if he's a Christian. Tam Lin replies, "Not only that! My parents were of the local nobility! Remember?" Conspiracy theorists (but few others) will note that he doesn't really answer Janet's question, does hie? "Christendom to see" hardly suggests "passing away." It could be an attempt to make sense of an unfamiliar "sained in Christentie," or, along with being in a holy chapel, it could simply mean "have you ever been in church and are you familiar with Christianity?" (Which in context seems to imply only, "Are you really a Christian?") |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: Jim Carroll Date: 16 Apr 14 - 08:44 AM "hy do people refer to songs as "Child Ballads"" Child identified 305 songs as being 'ballads' and numbered them so the various versions could be identified and compared. It is an invaluable reference number to those wishing to study them. Malcolm Laws did the same with Native and Anglo-American ballads More recently, Steve Roud has done the same with pretty near all folk songs. It really has made a great number of people's lives a great deal easier A toast to them all. Jim Carroll |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 16 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM It's Child 39 version I, not 391. Child didn't compose any of them, as per the title "The English and Scottish POPULAR Ballads", but that in no way denigrates his importance as a scholar and anthologist. It's out of respect for Child's monumental efforts in compiling these ballads, in all their known variants, together with Continental analogues, folk tale variants etc that we call them Child ballads. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: Jack Campin Date: 16 Apr 14 - 11:08 AM Conspiracy theorists (but few others) will note that he doesn't really answer Janet's question, does he? That kind of attention to the fine print had been a literary commonplace since Macbeth was promised that no man born of woman could kill him. Any listener would conclude that Tam was weaseling around the question. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: Steve Gardham Date: 16 Apr 14 - 03:49 PM 39 I is from Scott's Minstrelsy and therefore any awkward syntax like this is probably Scott's own. Child often gives versions from Scott's manuscripts in the later appendixes so it's worth having a look at the later versions in volume 5 to see the originals that Scott used to concoct this version. However a further warning is that some of the versions in his manuscripts were sent by people who had been concocting themselves. If this is of no interest to you as a performer, just ignore it. Another useful pointer is that if you can't find these personal names in any other version then they are even more likely Scott's inventions as he was fond of changing/adding in historical characters. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39I) From: Lighter Date: 16 Apr 14 - 04:24 PM "*Any* listener," Jack? Not all listeners are as analytical as we are. And it's harder to pick up subtleties in a sung ballad than in the same ballad seen on a page, where you can look again and again. Most theater-goers were presumably surprised when the witch's prophecies came true in the way they did. That's entertainment! |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 17 Apr 14 - 12:45 PM Hi, domjohnson. I majored in English, and I love questions like yours. Here are the verses and what they mean in modern English. 'Sain' is a verb meaning to bless or consecrate or to make the sign of the cross. related to 'sign.' 'The truth ye'll tell to me, Tamlane, A word ye mauna lie; Gin eer ye was in haly chapel, Or sained in Christentie?' The truth you'll tell to me, Tamlane, a word. You must not lie. Have you ever been in a holy chapel or blessed by Christianity? (she probably means "Have you ever been baptized?") ========================= 39I.27 'The truth I'll tell to thee, Janet, A word I winna lie; A knight me got, and a lady me bore, As well as they did thee. The truth I'll tell to you, Janet, a word. I will not lie. A (human) knight fathered me and a (human) lady bore me, just as a knight and a lady did thee. ============= Randolph, Earl Murray, was my sire, Dunbar, Earl March, is thine; We loved when we were children small, Which yet you well may mind. Randolph, the Earl of Murray, was my father, Dunbar, Earl of March, is yours. We loved (were affectionate) when we were small children, as you may still recall. ============== Whatya think? |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Brian Peters Date: 17 Apr 14 - 01:11 PM > Why do people refer to songs as "Child Ballads" anyway, he didnt compose ANY of them it's like saying "I've just learnt The Now That's What I Call Music song 35/20 American Pie" Except that the vast majority of the Child Ballads had anonymous composers. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 17 Apr 14 - 02:32 PM And most of them made far more sense than American Pie. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Phil Edwards Date: 17 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM The truth you'll tell to me, Tamlane, a word. You must not lie. Have you ever been in a holy chapel or blessed by Christianity? I'm pretty sure it's "a word ye mauna lie", all one phrase. Also "sained in Christentie", not 'by'. So I'd say it's The truth you'll tell to me, Tamlane, You must not lie, not even a word Were you ever in a holy chapel or consecrated as a Christian? My impression is that 'sained' is quite a strong word - 'sanctified' or 'made holy'. Which is what the sacrament of baptism does: it makes the baptisee holy by admitting him/her to Christianity. The truth I'll tell to you, Janet, a word. I will not lie. A (human) knight fathered me and a (human) lady bore me, just as a knight and a lady did thee. Again, I'd go for The truth I'll tell to you, Janet, I will not lie, not even a word. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 17 Apr 14 - 04:26 PM Yes, that makes sense too. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: The Sandman Date: 17 Apr 14 - 06:14 PM Sense? a few of them are little better than nonsense, lord randall[ tedious drivel on a par with american pie] hugh of lincoln anti semitic propoganda, bonny george campbell, a fragment, what happened next did he start a soup factory? a gest of robin hood, Robin displays a poor sense of humour,SINGULARLY LONG WINDED AND NOT FUNNY., no wonder nobody sings it, dreadful fare, rather like being made to eat mcdonalds food for ten minutes non stop. the bristow tragedie 100 verses of my noble liege and not much action, a number are very poor indeed. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 18 Apr 14 - 09:46 AM And how does that differ from most other forms of pop music? |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: The Sandman Date: 18 Apr 14 - 12:32 PM most forms of pop music are only 3 minutes of tedium. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Les in Chorlton Date: 18 Apr 14 - 01:26 PM Grump, grump, grumpty grump. But good points all the same Soldier |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Apr 14 - 02:00 PM Yes, Dick, I'd even say more than a few, but Child didn't set out to include any ballads on grounds of quality, although, like you he made it obvious when he did include stuff he thought was rubbish. His intention from the off was to be as inclusive as possible, warts and all. Most of us seem to agree though that despite this he just about got everything in there that was wonderful and available to him. I don't remember any of the Bristol Tragedies being in Child but you obviously have a different edition to me. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: The Sandman Date: 18 Apr 14 - 04:26 PM correct,Steve, glad to see you are watching like the Skibbereen Eagle. the bristow tragedie [not bristol],or the death of sir charles bawdin,is by thomas chatterton1752 to 1770 text 1772 edition. I agree there are some good songs, gest of robin hood, is child and is that interminable bore, lord randall. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: The Sandman Date: 18 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM should read, i agree there are some good songs , but not gest of robyn hoode and not that interminable bore lord randall |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Steve Gardham Date: 18 Apr 14 - 05:04 PM And yet Lord Randal is one of the most widespread ballads and not just in the English-speaking world. It must have something going for it! One man's meat eh? Of course there is no evidence that the Geste was ever sung or even recited. Perhaps it was just a collection of rhymed stories after all! And anyway fashions change over the centuries. I can't imagine anyone attempting to sing it today. As for making sense, I have never had much of a problem with the sense in the vast majority of ballads, even those that have been worn down to the bare bones. Tam Lin has always made wonderful sense to me, even in some of the concocted versions. It's one of my all-time favourites. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,ST Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM "a gest of robin hood, Robin displays a poor sense of humour,SINGULARLY LONG WINDED AND NOT FUNNY." Why should anyone think The GESTE of Robin Hood should/would be funny? It seems to be exactly what the title says it is; a tale of adventure in verse about Robin Hood. As for being boring, I don't disagree but I do recognise a lot of the storylines from various Richard Green episodes in there – just all run together. Remember they didn't have Eastenders in those days to bore them so they had to have something! I bet if you asked someone to retell the last month's Eastenders' storylines you'd get something on a par. I didn't think Child was collecting these ballads with a view to being a source of material for 21st Century folk singers and there are other reasons to read his collection than just to look for singable songs. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 19 Apr 14 - 10:39 AM Now wait a minute. Pretend for a moment that it's 1550 AD or 1650 or 1750. It's cold, the winds blasts right through the house, nights seem interminable, and there's no TV. Sex is problematic because there's very little privacy. What better thing to do than to gather round the fire and sing long songs lampooning the so-called upper classes? It's even better if a song has a refrain so everybody can join in. That's what ballads were all about. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 19 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM What the hell is wrong with Lord Randall? |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Anne Neilson Date: 19 Apr 14 - 11:16 AM I'm with you, Fred. Lord Randall is - IMHO - a superb tragic ballad, and often attracts superior tunes. But that's not the reason why I'm inclined to it: the lengthy question and answer format (in the hands of a good story-telling singer) heightens tension to an almost unbearable level, and keeps the listener hanging on for every new revelation -- until, finally, the truth is revealed. For an example of this, Google Kist o Riches (the wonderful archive of recorded material from the School of Scottish Studies and others) and enter Lord Randall/Arthur Argo into search. This recording was made in the 1950s and features a young Arthur at an early People's Festival ceilidh in Edinburgh: he sings Lord Randall to the very trite tune of 'Villikens and his Dinah' and nerves are evident in the first two thirds of the recording -- but as he approaches the finale the story overtakes him and the full strength of the denunciation is apparent. A masterful performance, in many ways. (Apologies for being unable to do the clicky link thing, but please try it for yourselves to see what I mean -- and, of course, the story-telling gift in a singer will always help to clarify text to a listener. As the whole tension in Tam Lin lies between Elfland and - what is often described as - Christendom, I'm fairly confident that most listeners would recognise this in the exchange quoted in the original post, without necessarily having knowledge of the precise meaning of 'sain'. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Lighter Date: 19 Apr 14 - 02:21 PM > gather round the fire and sing long songs lampooning the so-called upper classes? You must think "Randall" and "Spens" and "The Gypsy Laddie" and "The Baron o' Brackley" are real knee-slappers! |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,matt milton Date: 19 Apr 14 - 04:06 PM I used to find long ballads unutterably boring but now I find that all it takes is hearing one person's inspired performance of a ballad I could hitherto find zilch of interest in for me to completely re-think it. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Lighter Date: 19 Apr 14 - 05:16 PM Meant to mention "Bonnie James Campbell" and "The Bonnie Earl o' Murray" as well. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey Date: 20 Apr 14 - 07:07 AM The first time I heard Tam Lin it was being sung by Mike Waterson at the Folk Union One in Hull. I heard it through the peephole in the door being lucky enough to be at the head of the silent queue waiting to re-enter the room. There was no slipping in in those days! I found it rivetting then and I still do. I have also heard many excellent renditions by other singers and try as I might cannot recall any duff ones. Maybe I have just been lucky (it's the company I keep) or the song uses its magical qualities to ward off the less able (nearly said crap) singer. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 14 - 04:40 PM It's a meaty ballad, requiring some effort from the singer. I think the sort of singer who wouldn't be able to do it justice probably wouldn't bother to learn it and sing it at all. For me the classic version is the one put together by Bert Lloyd and sung by Frankie Armstrong, but that's not to say there haven't been other fine versions. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Richard Mellish Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:01 PM Oops, cookie lost again. Now reset. That last one was from me. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 20 Apr 14 - 05:15 PM Hello, Lighter I admit 'lampoon' was the wrong verb. But if you read through a collection of ballads, rather than deal with one at a time, you soon realize that their is theme running through almost all of them, and that is theme of what jerks the upper classes are. Whether they are poisoning their lovers, murdering maidens while on their knightly rambles or knifing in the back the suitor they disapprove of, they are all bad people. It was rather like Kansans telling anti-Oklahoma jokes, only more bitter. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Lighter Date: 20 Apr 14 - 08:14 PM I think that's a very contemporary interpretation, though it undoubtedly applies to a few minor ballads. It's like saying Greek drama is mainly about exposing gods and heroes as jerks. Or that "Macbeth" was understood as revolutionary propaganda. ("Those no good nobles! All they do is scheme and kill and get us into wars and then outfox themselves! Loved it!") |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Hilary Date: 20 Apr 14 - 11:29 PM Leeneia, I would posit the idea that the ballads are not necessarily about the immorality of the upper classes, but about the way people in general can treat each other. They make us question who we are as human beings and how we should treat one another, what we expect from relationships with other people. Pretty much every single Child Ballad has a relationship between two characters which is then threatened by a third character as the central problem of the story. If you want to read a really good study about the way the ballads functioned in rural 18th century Scotland, I highly recommend David Buchan's book The Ballad and the Folk. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: The Sandman Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:21 AM LORD RANDALL in my opinion is a very poor ballad, that is not in the same league as Tam Linn, its story content is weak rather like Bonny George Campbell, in fact Culinary wise the two ballads are like eating a tin of campbells soup and a four course dinner, each to their own. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: johncharles Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:13 AM The following link contains a paragraph which neatly sums up the power of the fragmentary ballad Bonny George Campbell. bonny george campbell john |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Brian Peters Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:09 AM I agree with Hilary that the ballads tell stories of basic human behaviour and emotion, many of which happen to be set in a fantasy world of royalty and aristocracy. As for 'Lord Randall' and 'Bonny George Campbell', they're two of my favourite ballads. Although a complex and detailed plot like that of 'Tam Lin' can be rivetting, so too can a 'bare bones' story. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:19 AM Brian. Precisely. It's the fact that we're not told why Lord Randall's girlfriend poisoned him, or what happened to Bonnie George Campbell which makes both ballads so rivetting. Come to that, all ballads work in much the same way. If it hasn't been shorn of all superfluous detail it isn't a ballad. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: johncharles Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:19 AM spot on Brian. john |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Apr 14 - 08:20 AM If Tam had been Janet's playmate as a child, this absolutely implies that he was considered the legitimate and baptized son of a noble family. He may have been a changeling, though, son of an elf knight and lady. Or he may just have lied ... Folk tales are usually about powerful persons, including wizards etc., to emphasize the need to make up one's mind and take responsibility for one's decisions. Ordinary people often feel that they have little to decide at all, but if the situation occurs, they must be prepared, as if they were queens or fairies. For example, foolish wishes are a motif known to the whole world, in folk tales and reality; we must be warned that they may come true! |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Richard Mellish Date: 21 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM "... foolish wishes are a motif known to the whole world, in folk tales and reality; we must be warned that they may come true!" Indeed -- but does anyone in this particular ballad fall into that trap? The only character who ends up disappointed is the elf queen, and only because she wasn't prepared for Tam to be rescued. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Grishka Date: 21 Apr 14 - 11:24 AM Foolish wishes are an example of the general observation that decision-makers are most suitable protagonists of tales - not mainly for lampooning or schadenfreude, what leeneia seems to suggest. In our democracies, we often see little political parties with absurd agendas, designed to attract the so-called protest vote. When they suddenly have to join coalition governments, it may be too late. Their voters should have learned from those fairy tales. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Lighter Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:59 PM One reason celebrity gossip is common in today's media (and non-celeb gossip is absent) is that just being a celebrity makes you interesting: the glamor, the wealth, the adventure, the opportunities to escape boredom and routine! Like being a seventeenth-century noble. I think it was only natural that nobles would have been preferred as ballad protagonists for just that reason. If one desires to look deeper, there is the "tsk, tsk" factor. All those advantages and they can still suffer and mess up their lives, just like us. And, more significant I think, is the familiar tragic motive mentioned by Hilary and Brian. It doesn't matter so much that they're nobles: what makes the story is what they do and what happens to them. Its worth repeating that Greek tragedy was all about nobles as well. The audiences evidently wouldn't have it any other way. Ordinary people were just too limited. Of course, you never can tell what individuals are thinking in the presence of art. *Somebody* may have thought Macbeth was a satire or that "Bonnie George Campbell" was a good one on the bigwigs. Not many would enjoy spending much time with such a person, however. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST Date: 21 Apr 14 - 02:55 PM Going back a tad, Leenia's reply needs expanding, the need for long ballads in winter evenings still exists in the Borders, where TV signals are weak unless you have satellite and the nearest cinema is four hours and more away. It's why Northumbrian piping is so strong, the tradition of visiting around in the evenings continues to this day, each farm hosting the neighbourhood one night a week and being hosted in return. The answer is to learn to play, so each verse is subtly different, telling the tale in the music as well as the words. |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: GUEST,Anne Neilson Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:57 PM And to respond to Guest above - I'm entirely with you: a ballad like Lord Randall or Son David or Lizzie Wan with lots of repetition needs a good story-telling singer to bring emotional differentiation to the inevitable progression towards the final resolution, so that the audience is prepared to accept the delay in arriving at the final outcome. But a ballad like Tam Lin needs - IMHO - a rather different narrative drive: there is certainly some formulaic repetition, but the whole narrative is 'rushing' towards a solution rather than delaying it, and so a singer needs command of pace and energy sooner than the sonority which would be more appropriate in Lord Randall. I'm really enjoying this exchange -- even though we've moved quite a bit sideways from the original post! |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Brian Peters Date: 21 Apr 14 - 05:31 PM That is a really good point, Anne. I feel the same about ballads like 'Young Hunting' or 'Sir Aldingar', where there's lots of narrative and it comes at you at quite a pace! |
Subject: RE: Tam Lin (Child #39-I) From: Steve Gardham Date: 22 Apr 14 - 11:36 AM Whilst agreeing about the longer action-packed ballads I've always felt they don't need any dramatic input at all. The only thing the singer needs to do is not distract the listeners from the story in any way. This is also why I don't like musical interludes or overelaborate accompaniment for such items. |
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