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BS: the demise of the boring thread

Big Al Whittle 20 Apr 14 - 09:23 PM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 20 Apr 14 - 09:52 PM
gnu 20 Apr 14 - 09:57 PM
Padre 21 Apr 14 - 12:00 AM
Rob Naylor 21 Apr 14 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Apr 14 - 12:28 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 14 - 12:42 AM
akenaton 21 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 03:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Apr 14 - 03:51 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 03:57 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Apr 14 - 04:00 AM
GUEST,Eliza 21 Apr 14 - 04:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Guest from Sanity 21 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM
GUEST,Musket 21 Apr 14 - 04:43 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Apr 14 - 04:56 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 14 - 05:12 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 14 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM
Musket 21 Apr 14 - 06:11 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Apr 14 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,Ed T 21 Apr 14 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 06:47 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Apr 14 - 06:57 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 14 - 07:03 AM
Musket 21 Apr 14 - 07:09 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 14 - 07:14 AM
GUEST,Ed T 21 Apr 14 - 07:22 AM
akenaton 21 Apr 14 - 07:24 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM
MGM·Lion 21 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM
Megan L 21 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 08:37 AM
bobad 21 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM
Ed T 21 Apr 14 - 08:59 AM
The Sandman 21 Apr 14 - 09:10 AM
Big Al Whittle 21 Apr 14 - 09:28 AM
The Sandman 21 Apr 14 - 09:36 AM
Stringsinger 21 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM
Musket 21 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Apr 14 - 11:52 AM
Stilly River Sage 21 Apr 14 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 14 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Musket 21 Apr 14 - 01:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Apr 14 - 01:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Apr 14 - 01:19 PM
akenaton 21 Apr 14 - 01:25 PM

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Subject: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:23 PM

I was a bit sorry to see this one go. I had apologised to Lizzie - good to know she hasn't changed in the time we've been apart. although i'm sure we're better off apart.my rather bumptious sense humour seems to piss her off - sometimes it pisses me off - but I am stuck with it.

also I had real hopes of jim keith and ake becoming mates - slapping each other the on backs, and becoming firm pals. pals who didn't agree about anything.

I've got to admit - I think of poor old ake -up there by the loch - worrying about hordes of marauding muslims and homosexuals.

jim who never goes to English folk clubs and doesn't live in England commenting glumly on the state of folk clubs that he's not going to.

dear old keith - keeps going - you expect me to be slandered! well yes! stop reading the daily mail. its just a pile of right wing racist bollocks. and if you come out with that stuff -you really will offend people. the people who write that shit don't believe it themselves. and it does affect your judgement - I know from members of my own family and circle of friends who read the mail.

you gotta admit - it a bit like the last of the summer wine.

I do have affection for all of you. you're my gang. try not to hurt each other!


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:52 PM

Just when it was about to get REAL good.........
Looking for Ed T's feedback!

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: gnu
Date: 20 Apr 14 - 09:57 PM

And then there's the suckups. I feel your pain.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Padre
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:00 AM

What the hell was Big Al's rant about?


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:08 AM

When you coming to the Ax Inn Open Mic, then, Al?.....I've got a horrible feeling I might quite get on with you. Which is worrying.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:28 AM

gnu: "And then there's the suckups. I feel your pain."

Suck lighter.

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:42 AM

Padre ~~ You'll find a thread called 'A boring place' on the Mudcat menu, which the mods have just closed.

That's what.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM

The thread was going nowhere, with the exception of the musical interlude, it had become just people arguing about who said what.

That IS boring.
No, if this section of the forum is to survive as a platform to debate all current and controversial issues, action will have to be taken to clean the place up.
If that means no controversial subjects, so be it, I will abide by the mods decision, but when I or any other member who wants to discuss grown up subjects is gone, the "pack", having tasted blood, will turn on others....."faith" is next in the firing line. In the UK there is pressure building up to stop the nation being classified as a "Christian country", the same faces who latch on to all the "rights" issues are right there.
The overthrow of Christianity is their long term aim....the bastion of conservatism in their eyes. Before long, society, now badly damaged, will be non existent.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:33 AM

It seems sheer vindictiveness for someone to bring the bitterness of a closed thread onto this one - as has just happened.
I wasn't sure of the wisdom of opening a thread to comment on a rightfully closed one Al - I think my misgivings have just been vindicated
Good luck to all who sail in her.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:51 AM

I didn't think I was ranting. I was just saying that even though the thread ended on a note of discord. I have immense affection for all concerned - even people like Lizzie, who seems to think my loins are stirring at the mere cyber presence of a female.

its sort of sad when you have to agree never to talk to someone again. or all walk off in different directions.

it feels a bit like the campfires gone out. the last bottle drained. oh I've got to get up in the morning and drive a long way. all that shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 03:57 AM

Didn't suggest you were Al - just though it might have been better to wait till the stretcher-bearers had had time to carry off the wounded.
Hope this one doesn't go the way of all the others - good luck with it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:00 AM

Oh I don't know Akenaton. The overthrow of hate would be nice. In the meantime, reading your contributions reminds us that debate amongst peers is not a level playing field.

You should thank me for taking your diatribe seriously.

Or at least pretending to.....





As you seem to love all things American, I suggest you protect yourself from poufs by wearing a tin foil hat. You know it makes sense.
(They work best if you don't articulate your opinions whilst wearing by the way.)


I've just checked on the thread and it isn't closed. Jeri just said she couldn't get on it properly but from here it seems to be working fine. There could be a glitch in the system or an Easter Sunday gremlin telling you all to be nice, of course (OK I'M JOKING!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:12 AM

Having studiously ploughed through the whole boring Boring thread, and marvelled at the escalating bile therein without daring to post, I must comment today on Al's new thread. How big-hearted and mature of him, I think it's very touching. If only similar sentiments from all the protagonists had been expressed before about post 50 or so, the thread itself may have wound its way to a more congenial and pleasant conclusion.
In my view (not worth a lot I realise) bitter and frenzied argument can take place, and be stimulating and interesting, IF people hold tightly to an underlying civility and goodwill, agree to differ, 'shake hands' and be friendly in spite of their opposing standpoints. That, by the way Joe, is a traditional British way of behaving, even if somewhat diluted nowadays.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM

Al, no "racist right wing bollocks" from me.
Ever.
Do not believe the propaganda!
They could not actually produce any remember.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:38 AM

Akenaton: "....."faith" is next in the firing line. In the UK there is pressure building up to stop the nation being classified as a "Christian country", the same faces who latch on to all the "rights" issues are right there.
The overthrow of Christianity is their long term aim....the bastion of conservatism in their eyes. Before long, society, now badly damaged, will be non existent."

You noticed that..cool...why do you think that?

GfS


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:43 AM

A bit like the England football team forced to do a seig heil to Hitler in the '30s. Sir Stanley Matthews said the image haunted him in later years.

No, sorry Eliza. On this one, niceties don't work. Both our countries have a proud past of confronting bigotry and slowly but surely killing sections of it off. We have people on this website who are free to propagate hatred towards others, question the right of some people to exist and then call those who question them the fascists.

Most websites use moderation to recognise and pull it in. By not doing so, shallow people wrongly think their extreme views are acceptable in decent society.

None of us are perfect, I'm less perfect than most. But reading some contributions here just proves you cannot engage with Mudcat if you are offended by hatred towards your very existence. Because nobody is stopping the criminals from propagating their hatred. (Incidentally, those saying The US protect freedom of bad speech may wish to look at the federal courts case list. They include Abu Hamzir, who was extradited from The UK for amongst other things, publishing incitement to hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 04:56 AM

ps Ake, there is no firing line! no guns here thankfully! remember that....take the violence out of the metaphors, that might be a start.

I think its important to feel passionately about subjects and express ourselves. we need to eschew violence -even in language.

I've got this long playing record made by the beeb in 1966 celebrating fifty years since the 1916 revolution in Dublin. theres this sentence where it says something to the effect, James Connolly And Patrick Pearse's genius was the reintrodution of violence into Irish politics. given the history of the last fifty years - does it look like such a great act of genius now?

I suspect people will argue about that last point. but I think violence of language towards each other lies at the root of some of the bitterness on mudcat between very nice people.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 05:12 AM

Musket -- What are you on about, above 0400? The 'boring place' thread IS closed. It was when I posted reply to Padre above; and I have just checked again; & it is still closed.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 05:26 AM

I think, indeed, that this cooking sherry you are on about so much of the time must be located in your kitchen, & you are practising some form of Freudian Displacement...

"In Freudian psychology, displacement (German Verschiebung "shift, move") is an unconscious defence mechanism"
Wikipedia - emphasis added


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 05:39 AM

Can I disassociate myself from this insanity.
I believe it was unwise for Al to have opened this thread so closs on the heels of the last fiasco.
I thought it was sheer vindictiveness on the part of the guilty individual to reopen hostilities within less than ten postings of it being opened
I believe it was utter crassness to rise to his bait.
Now, in less than 20 postings, it has been turned into a shameful melee.
Stop it, for ***** sake.
If this goes on we will not have a BS section to post to.
Is somebody putting something in your morning tea?
Grow up.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:11 AM

Michael. Do you buy it from Aldi or Lidle? Whatever it is, it seems to do the trick?

Where have I said anything about the closed thread? A moderator put comments just after my post. The clue being the different colour font.

For someone who likes to show us his HTML tricks, you can be a bit weird sometimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:43 AM

yeh okay - close this down too. like Jim says -it a shameful melee....

like George melee , or Melee Torme....

all the best
al (unashamed)


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:43 AM

GFS, I put in the general information on ex gays in Google and did see quite a few people who claim they were homosexual and changed over to being Herterosexual.

However, I could not locate any credible research on the topic. The closest I got on the topic related to a much reported homosexual religious re-education program. A researcher who once claimed to have evidence that that this worked, but seemed to recant this later,as his research results were flawed. Generally, as there are many confounding aspects related to personal accounts on the internet (or those promoted by interest groups) that have not been researched. As I indicated earlier, one would expect that bisexuals change one way or the other in their lives.

However, in my search I located the survey below, that indicates USA attitudes to gay marriage and gays have changed greatly - contrary to commonly held views that those who are opposed are in the majority, the opposite seems to be the case. What is noted is the change in attitudes by younger people, which may show where the future may be moving.


Survey - Changing USA attitudes


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:47 AM

"Melee Torme...."
Or Melee Molly Mandy - probably a bit before your time and out of your comfort zone Al
All the best to you too
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 06:57 AM

milly molly mandy - my first love - always been a sucker for girls in short skirts!


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:03 AM

Musket ~~ Yes, I did notice the diff colour. But usually a mod's note is in reduced size coloured format; so I took the colouring to be your own addition. Sorry about that.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:09 AM

Ed. Over here last year, a documentary called Stepping Out had Stephen Fry interviewing many of the people Goofus refers to. The fascination for the British audience wasn't the merit or otherwise but the rather shocking idea that this is done in the first place, or that superstition thinks it has an answer to normal behaviour that doesn't accord with its own irrational nonsense.

With catastrophic results for some people and their families. Not that this stops the ever caring Goofus and his homophobic crusade eh?

The changing attitude links you give are encouraging, although you'd be surprised how people who could do so who moved from The UK to California to live in a more tolerant place over the years!


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:14 AM

Ah, sancta simplicitas: my favourite Milly Molly Mandy story really was called, so help me, "Milly Molly Mandy spends a penny".

The ambiguity involved in this title will be lost on anyone not old enough to recall Joyce Lankester Brisley's 1920s onwards tales of the little girl called Millicent Margaret Amanda whose name was abbreviated for convenience as shown in the titles. Tho they appear, I find wiki-ing them, to be still in print. Do today's children actually still read them? And there must presumably be a new author, as the original one died getting on for 40 years ago?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:22 AM

Study: Science Can Change the Sexual Orientations of Mice


Maybe in the future anyone will be able to "dial up" their sexual orientation for a change in experience?attitudes.
:)

Of Mice and men (and, women)


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:24 AM

Al... The fact you are a nice guy does not necessarily mean that all who post here are also nice guys.

Serious discussion does not always have to be between nice guys or girls, I don't expect everyone to be nice, or even friendly, just that they cut out personal abuse, tell the truth, and don't misquote and misrepresent what others say.

People who do these things are not interested in debate, only in destroying debate....they are easy to spot and should be condemned by everyone, regardless of whether they agree with the member being attacked or not.

I have come to see the moderators here as fair, not perfect, but even handed and decent people.....I don't like to see them being taken advantage of by politically motivated clowns.

Sorry about the metaphor BTW.....but you do seem to have some weird ideas about what "motivates me"?
I am mainly "motivated" by the idiocies of "liberalism" as practiced in the UK, and its destructive affect on society at large and one section in particular.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:53 AM

"I don't like to see them being taken advantage of by politically motivated clowns."
Any chance of you stopping this Ake?
It was your input turned it into a melee in the first place; isn't it about time you gave it a rest?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 07:59 AM

"Do today's children actually still read them? "
Children - were they for children - damn!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 08:23 AM

Tough titty, Jimmy Jolly Jandy...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

Ah the rattling of pots and kettles


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 08:37 AM

"Tough titty, Jimmy Jolly Jandy..."
No wondr it took me so long to get into Dickens
"Ah the rattling of pots and kettles"
Not helping Megan
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: bobad
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 08:52 AM

A study suggests that the three most painful places to get stung by a bee are, in descending order: the nostril, the upper lip, and the penis.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Ed T
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 08:59 AM

Was that your personal study/observation Bobad?

One can possibly avoid some of the associated potential bee-danger by zipping up:)
:)


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:10 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdNAuDtf7vI bit like mudcat,i feel sorry for the moderators


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:28 AM

there are times when you want a shag and only a bumble bee will do...

well you may be right, ake. some people may not be nice. but I like to stay with illusion that all the ones that I know are pretty swell.

when they push shit through my letterbox - I will say.....ah! just what I needed for the compost . thanks awfully old bean!

anyway what if western civilisation is in ruins - you won't really notice it up there by the loch.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 09:36 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHooSqfVD6w


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 10:50 AM

The reports of the death of the demise is greatly exaggerated. It's not so much the boring thread as the boring missives of the people delivering to it.

There are always important topics in every thread but it only holds as long as there is intelligent discussion to guide it without rancor, accusations and personal diatribes.

If someone is bored by what is being said, the option is to ignore it, not to belabor the point by introducing a smart-assed comment.

Also, remember that being bored is a characteristic of a boring person.

Meanwhile, what is boring to some may be intriguing to others.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 10:57 AM

More importantly, multi cultural, engaging society won't worry too much about the loch, nor the monster attitudes.

Although, I shall be drinking in The George in Inverary next week, with our friends who live there. By a loch for that matter. They say they were initially concerned by small mind small town reaction, having lived in Edinburgh for a while, but haven't seen any of curtain twitching they expected. Mind you, one is a English, which might be a wee bit difficult...... His husband defends him nicely though when the independence chestnut is raised.

Still, a nice set of bells there, which will keep Mrs Musket happy on Sunday morning.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 11:52 AM

"there are times when you want a shag and only a bumble bee will do..."
Bee a good fellow and buzz off Al


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:16 PM

Most websites use moderation to recognise and pull it in. By not doing so, shallow people wrongly think their extreme views are acceptable in decent society.

None of us are perfect, I'm less perfect than most. But reading some contributions here just proves you cannot engage with Mudcat if you are offended by hatred towards your very existence. Because nobody is stopping the criminals from propagating their hatred.


Musket, it's damned if you do and damned if you don't around here. There's always someone ready and willing to jump down your throat if, as a mod, one steps in to break up a fight by deleting posts or by closing a thread. What astounds me is how many of you came back here to argue when the last one was a hot mess of bickering.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 12:47 PM

There are no "criminals from propagating their hatred" here.
Musket and mates like to pretend they are saving the world from evil bigots.
It is just decent people who happen to disagree with Musket and mates.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:08 PM

Nothing decent about bigotry Keith.

Better men than you and I fought to keep the bastards where they belong. My Dad's generation were given medals for stamping out decent people who disagreed with them.

You can have views all day. In your case you are welcome to them. Crossing the line to hate? Now that isn't disagreement, however disagreeable. You keep saying nobody does that yet Goofus tells us that you can be cured from being yourself and that it is choice (ie wrong choice?) to be gay whilst your pet worm thinks being born how you are is a liberal plot and then tells us how he hates liberal plots.

Then you keep cropping up saying "nobody hates and Musket wants to save the world I a dalek isn't it confusing did I mention I am proud to be a Christian historians know more than candlestick makers ......." And whatever other nonsense.



SRS. Life's a bitch.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:12 PM

I was going to keep out of this but I must say that, as I like to think I am friendly with both Musket and yourself, Keith, I need to clarify a point. I dislike it immensely when people having a go at others and will not name them. Phrases like 'Musket and his mates', 'the gang of 3' and 'politically motivated clowns' are, to my mind, a cowards way of making personal attacks. If you are going to attack someone, attack them for heavens sake. Don't cloak it in a phrase that could mean anybody or anything. The moderators, who I believe generally do a good job, will delete the attack if they believe it has gone too far. If it acceptable it will stand. If you want to include me, include me. If you don't, then don't. I am happy to accept that I can agree with anyone on some things and disagree strongly on others. Make it about issues, not people.

Thanks in advance

Boringly...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:17 PM

Then why are you totally incapable of producing an example of this hatred from an actual post?
Answer, because there are none and you are talking bollocks again.

If you produced one now I would have to grovel and retract.
Confident prediction-you can't and you will be left looking a fool yet again.

You should grovel and retract Musket, unless you can produce something.
Can you Musket?


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:19 PM

Dave, I named them a few posts up.
I named Musket, Jim, Steve and Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: the demise of the boring thread
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Apr 14 - 01:25 PM

Jim, on the closed thread I made 15 posts to your 41 posts.

None of my posts contained any invective, but were mostly in response to lies or misrepresentation from others.   I do not normally respond to you as I think you are among a group of disingenuous people here.

My posts were not the cause of the "melee", but the idiotic reaction to my posts may well have had that effect.


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