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BS: Islamic radicalism . . .

Brian May 23 Apr 14 - 05:59 AM
Musket 23 Apr 14 - 06:15 AM
Brian May 23 Apr 14 - 07:21 AM
Stu 23 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM
Greg F. 23 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM
Brian May 23 Apr 14 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,# 23 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM
Greg F. 23 Apr 14 - 10:28 AM
GUEST,# 23 Apr 14 - 10:29 AM
Stringsinger 23 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 01:07 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Eliza 23 Apr 14 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 01:32 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,# 23 Apr 14 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Apr 14 - 03:04 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Apr 14 - 03:25 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Apr 14 - 03:44 PM
GUEST,Musket 23 Apr 14 - 04:58 PM
Greg F. 23 Apr 14 - 05:06 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 05:16 PM
MGM·Lion 23 Apr 14 - 05:22 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 03:03 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 14 - 06:11 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 06:30 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 06:33 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 14 - 06:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 14 - 06:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 14 - 07:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 14 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 07:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 14 - 07:37 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 14 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 14 - 08:34 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 14 - 08:46 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 09:03 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 09:08 AM
Greg F. 24 Apr 14 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,# 24 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 14 - 09:57 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 14 - 10:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 14 - 10:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 11:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 Apr 14 - 11:43 AM
Stringsinger 24 Apr 14 - 11:49 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM
Greg F. 24 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 14 - 03:03 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 14 - 04:22 PM
MGM·Lion 24 Apr 14 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,# 24 Apr 14 - 05:04 PM
GUEST,# 24 Apr 14 - 05:27 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Apr 14 - 06:36 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 14 - 06:41 PM
GUEST,michaelr 24 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 12:41 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 12:48 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 01:23 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Apr 14 - 01:45 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 01:51 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 02:05 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 14 - 02:57 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 03:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 14 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Musket 25 Apr 14 - 05:28 AM
Richard Bridge 25 Apr 14 - 05:49 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 07:10 AM
Musket 25 Apr 14 - 07:28 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 14 - 08:18 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM
Greg F. 25 Apr 14 - 08:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 14 - 08:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 Apr 14 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Musket 25 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 14 - 10:33 AM
bobad 25 Apr 14 - 10:43 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 11:19 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 11:31 AM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 11:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 14 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Musket 25 Apr 14 - 03:33 PM
Stringsinger 25 Apr 14 - 03:50 PM
MGM·Lion 25 Apr 14 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,michaelr 25 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 14 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 14 - 04:00 AM
Richard Bridge 26 Apr 14 - 04:08 AM
MGM·Lion 26 Apr 14 - 06:28 AM
GUEST 26 Apr 14 - 10:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM
GUEST 26 Apr 14 - 12:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 Apr 14 - 12:24 PM
GUEST 26 Apr 14 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 26 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM
Lighter 26 Apr 14 - 01:05 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 14 - 07:44 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 01:58 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 14 - 03:43 AM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 03:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 14 - 03:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 14 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM
GUEST 27 Apr 14 - 09:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 14 - 11:34 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 14 - 11:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 02:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Apr 14 - 02:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 14 - 02:34 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Apr 14 - 02:37 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 14 - 03:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Apr 14 - 04:01 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 14 - 04:13 PM
Lighter 27 Apr 14 - 04:36 PM
Greg F. 27 Apr 14 - 05:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 27 Apr 14 - 05:53 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 06:04 PM
Greg F. 27 Apr 14 - 06:12 PM
Richard Bridge 27 Apr 14 - 06:23 PM
MGM·Lion 27 Apr 14 - 06:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 14 - 09:30 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 14 - 11:12 AM
Greg F. 28 Apr 14 - 11:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM
Greg F. 28 Apr 14 - 02:59 PM
Stringsinger 28 Apr 14 - 03:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 14 - 03:30 PM
Greg F. 28 Apr 14 - 04:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 28 Apr 14 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,# 28 Apr 14 - 05:57 PM
Greg F. 28 Apr 14 - 06:43 PM
Greg F. 28 Apr 14 - 08:58 PM
MGM·Lion 28 Apr 14 - 11:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 14 - 01:57 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Apr 14 - 02:13 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 14 - 03:13 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 14 - 03:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 14 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 14 - 06:04 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 14 - 06:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 29 Apr 14 - 06:47 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 14 - 07:48 AM
GUEST,Musket 29 Apr 14 - 10:10 AM
Stringsinger 29 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM
Richard Bridge 29 Apr 14 - 05:19 PM
GUEST,# 29 Apr 14 - 06:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 02:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 02:17 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 02:39 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Apr 14 - 04:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 04:03 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Apr 14 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 04:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 04:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Apr 14 - 06:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 06:35 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 06:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM
bobad 30 Apr 14 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 08:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,McMusket 30 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM
GUEST,# 30 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM
GUEST 30 Apr 14 - 10:20 AM
bobad 30 Apr 14 - 10:28 AM
bobad 30 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM
pdq 30 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 10:51 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 12:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM
MGM·Lion 30 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 02:33 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,McMusket 30 Apr 14 - 03:39 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 05:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 05:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Apr 14 - 05:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Apr 14 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Apr 14 - 05:56 PM
Greg F. 30 Apr 14 - 06:25 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Apr 14 - 06:27 PM
Stringsinger 30 Apr 14 - 07:25 PM
Greg F. 30 Apr 14 - 08:12 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Apr 14 - 08:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 14 - 04:09 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 14 - 06:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 14 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 May 14 - 06:40 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 14 - 06:43 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 14 - 06:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 14 - 06:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 14 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 14 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,# 01 May 14 - 08:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 14 - 09:31 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 14 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,# 01 May 14 - 02:03 PM
Jim Carroll 01 May 14 - 02:20 PM
Richard Bridge 01 May 14 - 02:23 PM
Jim Carroll 01 May 14 - 02:38 PM
MGM·Lion 01 May 14 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,# 01 May 14 - 03:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 14 - 05:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 May 14 - 05:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 May 14 - 06:13 PM
GUEST,# 01 May 14 - 06:59 PM
Greg F. 01 May 14 - 09:41 PM
bobad 01 May 14 - 10:58 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 14 - 02:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 May 14 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 14 - 03:22 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 14 - 03:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 14 - 04:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 14 - 04:18 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 14 - 04:33 AM
MGM·Lion 02 May 14 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 14 - 05:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 14 - 06:52 AM
GUEST 02 May 14 - 12:24 PM
Greg F. 02 May 14 - 02:53 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 May 14 - 02:56 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 14 - 05:49 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 14 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,# 02 May 14 - 06:41 PM
bobad 02 May 14 - 07:09 PM
Jim Carroll 03 May 14 - 03:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 14 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 May 14 - 04:55 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 14 - 05:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 14 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 14 - 07:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 14 - 07:40 AM
Greg F. 03 May 14 - 09:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 14 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,# 03 May 14 - 02:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 May 14 - 05:23 PM
GUEST,# 03 May 14 - 05:37 PM
Greg F. 03 May 14 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 May 14 - 07:47 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 May 14 - 08:13 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 May 14 - 08:20 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 May 14 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 03 May 14 - 08:38 PM
GUEST 03 May 14 - 10:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 14 - 03:43 AM
MGM·Lion 04 May 14 - 03:56 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 14 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 14 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 14 - 05:03 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 04 May 14 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 14 - 07:42 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 14 - 08:03 AM
GUEST 04 May 14 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,Musket 04 May 14 - 05:17 PM
Greg F. 04 May 14 - 05:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 May 14 - 06:47 PM
Greg F. 04 May 14 - 09:30 PM
GUEST,McMusket 05 May 14 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 14 - 03:15 AM
beardedbruce 05 May 14 - 07:39 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 05 May 14 - 08:06 AM
Greg F. 05 May 14 - 08:20 AM
beardedbruce 05 May 14 - 08:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 14 - 09:02 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 14 - 10:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 May 14 - 11:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 14 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Musket 05 May 14 - 01:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 01:08 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 14 - 01:36 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 01:51 PM
Musket 05 May 14 - 02:06 PM
pdq 05 May 14 - 02:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 02:29 PM
Greg F. 05 May 14 - 03:08 PM
Jim Carroll 05 May 14 - 03:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 May 14 - 03:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 May 14 - 04:18 PM
MGM·Lion 05 May 14 - 05:22 PM
Greg F. 05 May 14 - 10:05 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 14 - 02:23 AM
GUEST,McMusket 06 May 14 - 02:57 AM
Richard Bridge 06 May 14 - 03:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 14 - 03:59 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 May 14 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 14 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 06 May 14 - 05:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 14 - 06:24 AM
Richard Bridge 06 May 14 - 07:41 AM
GUEST 06 May 14 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,McMusket 06 May 14 - 08:33 AM
Richard Bridge 06 May 14 - 08:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 14 - 08:40 AM
Greg F. 06 May 14 - 12:24 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 14 - 12:57 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 14 - 01:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 14 - 03:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 06 May 14 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,# 06 May 14 - 08:15 PM
Greg F. 06 May 14 - 08:22 PM
bobad 06 May 14 - 10:13 PM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 06:24 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 14 - 07:37 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 14 - 07:47 AM
bobad 07 May 14 - 08:00 AM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 08:16 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 14 - 08:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 14 - 08:44 AM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 14 - 08:59 AM
Greg F. 07 May 14 - 09:16 AM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 10:01 AM
Teribus 07 May 14 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,# 07 May 14 - 10:40 AM
Greg F. 07 May 14 - 10:56 AM
Greg F. 07 May 14 - 10:58 AM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 11:37 AM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 11:39 AM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 11:43 AM
Musket 07 May 14 - 11:48 AM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 11:57 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 14 - 12:54 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 14 - 02:19 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 14 - 02:25 PM
pdq 07 May 14 - 02:30 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 14 - 02:48 PM
GUEST,McMusket 07 May 14 - 02:56 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 14 - 02:59 PM
bobad 07 May 14 - 04:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 14 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Rational Musket 07 May 14 - 04:43 PM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 05:18 PM
Musket 07 May 14 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,# 07 May 14 - 05:24 PM
Musket 07 May 14 - 05:30 PM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 05:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 07 May 14 - 05:50 PM
MGM·Lion 07 May 14 - 05:55 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 14 - 06:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 07 May 14 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,McMusket 08 May 14 - 02:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 03:54 AM
Musket 08 May 14 - 04:15 AM
Richard Bridge 08 May 14 - 04:42 AM
Teribus 08 May 14 - 04:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 05:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 14 - 05:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 14 - 05:44 AM
Musket 08 May 14 - 05:50 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 14 - 05:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 14 - 06:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 06:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 14 - 06:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 06:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 06:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 14 - 06:44 AM
Musket 08 May 14 - 06:56 AM
Richard Bridge 08 May 14 - 06:56 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 14 - 06:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 14 - 07:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 07:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 08 May 14 - 07:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 07:13 AM
bobad 08 May 14 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,McMusket 08 May 14 - 09:21 AM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 09:49 AM
Greg F. 08 May 14 - 04:52 PM
Keith A of Hertford 08 May 14 - 05:50 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 14 - 08:16 PM
LadyJean 08 May 14 - 11:23 PM
Teribus 09 May 14 - 03:04 AM
Richard Bridge 09 May 14 - 09:47 AM
bobad 09 May 14 - 07:23 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 14 - 08:10 PM
bobad 09 May 14 - 08:20 PM
Greg F. 09 May 14 - 08:26 PM
bobad 09 May 14 - 08:33 PM
Greg F. 09 May 14 - 08:33 PM
Greg F. 09 May 14 - 08:39 PM
bobad 09 May 14 - 09:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 01:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 01:39 AM
GUEST,Musket 10 May 14 - 03:04 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 03:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 03:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 03:27 AM
Richard Bridge 10 May 14 - 03:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 06:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 07:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 08:05 AM
Musket 10 May 14 - 08:17 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 08:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 09:45 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 09:51 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 09:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 11:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 11:52 AM
bobad 10 May 14 - 12:05 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 12:43 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 12:54 PM
MGM·Lion 10 May 14 - 01:01 PM
Musket 10 May 14 - 01:19 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 01:24 PM
Greg F. 10 May 14 - 01:25 PM
MGM·Lion 10 May 14 - 01:37 PM
Keith A of Hertford 10 May 14 - 01:52 PM
bobad 10 May 14 - 02:05 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 02:10 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 14 - 02:24 PM
MGM·Lion 10 May 14 - 02:37 PM
Greg F. 11 May 14 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 11 May 14 - 01:16 PM
bobad 11 May 14 - 01:25 PM
Greg F. 11 May 14 - 01:46 PM
MGM·Lion 11 May 14 - 02:56 PM
GUEST 12 May 14 - 09:22 AM
bobad 12 May 14 - 09:23 AM
Greg F. 12 May 14 - 09:42 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 14 - 09:45 AM
bobad 12 May 14 - 09:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 May 14 - 10:05 AM
bobad 12 May 14 - 10:18 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 14 - 06:23 PM
Musket 12 May 14 - 06:41 PM
bobad 12 May 14 - 06:51 PM
Greg F. 12 May 14 - 07:11 PM
Steve Shaw 12 May 14 - 08:03 PM
bobad 12 May 14 - 08:37 PM
GUEST,# 12 May 14 - 08:50 PM
Greg F. 12 May 14 - 10:14 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 02:00 AM
GUEST,Musket 13 May 14 - 03:02 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Eliza 13 May 14 - 03:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 04:48 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 05:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 05:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 13 May 14 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 05:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 06:27 AM
Musket 13 May 14 - 06:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 07:10 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 07:18 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 07:29 AM
Greg F. 13 May 14 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 07:52 AM
Greg F. 13 May 14 - 08:32 AM
Musket 13 May 14 - 08:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 09:57 AM
Musket 13 May 14 - 10:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 10:10 AM
Musket 13 May 14 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,# 13 May 14 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,# 13 May 14 - 12:22 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 12:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 12:31 PM
Musket 13 May 14 - 12:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 May 14 - 12:55 PM
GUEST,# 13 May 14 - 01:04 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 01:48 PM
beardedbruce 13 May 14 - 01:56 PM
beardedbruce 13 May 14 - 01:58 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 02:27 PM
beardedbruce 13 May 14 - 02:34 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 02:49 PM
beardedbruce 13 May 14 - 02:54 PM
beardedbruce 13 May 14 - 02:58 PM
beardedbruce 13 May 14 - 03:01 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 14 - 04:05 PM
Greg F. 13 May 14 - 05:41 PM
Teribus 14 May 14 - 01:41 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 May 14 - 02:06 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 14 - 02:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 14 May 14 - 05:42 AM
beardedbruce 14 May 14 - 07:29 AM
beardedbruce 14 May 14 - 07:39 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 14 - 07:46 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 14 - 07:49 AM
beardedbruce 14 May 14 - 07:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 14 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 14 - 08:04 AM
bobad 14 May 14 - 08:11 AM
Richard Bridge 14 May 14 - 08:35 AM
bobad 14 May 14 - 08:53 AM
Musket 14 May 14 - 09:01 AM
bobad 14 May 14 - 09:17 AM
Musket 14 May 14 - 10:36 AM
bobad 14 May 14 - 11:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 14 - 11:08 AM
Greg F. 14 May 14 - 01:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 May 14 - 01:20 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 May 14 - 01:37 PM
Musket 14 May 14 - 01:43 PM
bobad 14 May 14 - 02:22 PM
Musket 14 May 14 - 02:27 PM
Steve Shaw 14 May 14 - 06:58 PM
Greg F. 14 May 14 - 09:21 PM
bobad 14 May 14 - 10:28 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 May 14 - 02:21 AM
GUEST,Musket 15 May 14 - 03:21 AM
bobad 15 May 14 - 08:34 AM
beardedbruce 15 May 14 - 10:44 AM
Musket 15 May 14 - 11:30 AM
bobad 15 May 14 - 11:55 AM
Greg F. 15 May 14 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,Musket 15 May 14 - 04:03 PM
Jeri 15 May 14 - 05:04 PM
Steve Shaw 15 May 14 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,michaelr 15 May 14 - 08:41 PM
GUEST,Noel Battle 15 May 14 - 10:41 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 14 - 01:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 14 - 02:09 AM
bobad 16 May 14 - 09:50 AM
Musket 16 May 14 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 14 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 14 - 01:52 PM
GUEST,Musket 16 May 14 - 02:33 PM
bobad 16 May 14 - 03:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 16 May 14 - 04:13 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 14 - 08:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 14 - 01:20 AM
GUEST,Musket 17 May 14 - 03:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 14 - 04:17 AM
MGM·Lion 17 May 14 - 06:17 AM
Musket 17 May 14 - 08:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 14 - 09:45 AM
Musket 17 May 14 - 09:56 AM
GUEST 17 May 14 - 12:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 14 - 01:33 PM
GUEST,Musket 17 May 14 - 01:43 PM
Greg F. 17 May 14 - 02:13 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 May 14 - 02:31 PM
Greg F. 17 May 14 - 03:07 PM
MGM·Lion 17 May 14 - 04:11 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 14 - 01:55 AM
GUEST,Musket 18 May 14 - 03:00 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 03:41 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 14 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 14 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 14 - 05:06 AM
Musket 18 May 14 - 05:49 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 14 - 07:50 AM
Musket 18 May 14 - 07:51 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 08:15 AM
Musket 18 May 14 - 08:18 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 08:30 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 08:43 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 14 - 08:46 AM
Musket 18 May 14 - 08:56 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 09:03 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 09:22 AM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 09:34 AM
Musket 18 May 14 - 10:19 AM
GUEST,John P 18 May 14 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,# 18 May 14 - 12:01 PM
Musket 18 May 14 - 12:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 14 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,# 18 May 14 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 18 May 14 - 12:57 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 14 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,Musket 18 May 14 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,# 18 May 14 - 01:32 PM
Greg F. 18 May 14 - 02:02 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 14 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 May 14 - 03:36 PM
GUEST 18 May 14 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 18 May 14 - 06:41 PM
GUEST 18 May 14 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Troubadour 18 May 14 - 06:54 PM
MGM·Lion 18 May 14 - 11:43 PM
GUEST,Musket 19 May 14 - 01:13 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 14 - 03:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 04:02 AM
Musket 19 May 14 - 04:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 05:20 AM
Musket 19 May 14 - 05:46 AM
MGM·Lion 19 May 14 - 06:44 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 14 - 07:03 AM
Musket 19 May 14 - 07:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 08:05 AM
Musket 19 May 14 - 08:52 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 08:58 AM
Musket 19 May 14 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 14 - 10:11 AM
GUEST,# 19 May 14 - 10:36 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 11:17 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 11:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 03:25 PM
Keith A of Hertford 19 May 14 - 03:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 14 - 03:45 AM
Teribus 20 May 14 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Musket 20 May 14 - 04:55 AM
Teribus 20 May 14 - 05:39 AM
Teribus 20 May 14 - 06:14 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 14 - 07:47 AM
Musket 20 May 14 - 08:33 AM
bobad 20 May 14 - 08:47 AM
Teribus 20 May 14 - 10:55 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 14 - 11:10 AM
bobad 20 May 14 - 11:25 AM
akenaton 20 May 14 - 01:40 PM
Teribus 21 May 14 - 02:22 AM
MGM·Lion 21 May 14 - 10:58 AM
Musket 21 May 14 - 12:40 PM
MGM·Lion 21 May 14 - 12:57 PM
Musket 22 May 14 - 03:58 AM
MGM·Lion 22 May 14 - 05:26 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 14 - 06:16 AM
Musket 22 May 14 - 06:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 14 - 07:22 AM
Jim Carroll 22 May 14 - 07:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 22 May 14 - 08:17 AM
bobad 22 May 14 - 08:44 AM
bobad 22 May 14 - 09:11 AM
Musket 22 May 14 - 11:30 AM
Richard Bridge 22 May 14 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 22 May 14 - 06:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 14 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 14 - 04:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 14 - 04:58 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 14 - 06:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 14 - 07:34 AM
bobad 23 May 14 - 08:15 AM
Greg F. 23 May 14 - 08:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 14 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,Musket 23 May 14 - 11:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 14 - 12:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 23 May 14 - 02:35 PM
bobad 23 May 14 - 05:48 PM
Greg F. 23 May 14 - 06:18 PM
bobad 23 May 14 - 07:24 PM
Jeri 23 May 14 - 07:46 PM
bobad 23 May 14 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,Musket 24 May 14 - 02:21 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 03:26 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 03:26 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 14 - 05:12 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 14 - 05:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 06:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 14 - 06:46 AM
bobad 24 May 14 - 07:23 AM
MGM·Lion 24 May 14 - 07:50 AM
bobad 24 May 14 - 08:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 08:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 14 - 09:03 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 14 - 09:07 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 09:57 AM
Musket 24 May 14 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 10:18 AM
MGM·Lion 24 May 14 - 10:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 14 - 11:00 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 11:01 AM
MGM·Lion 24 May 14 - 12:21 PM
MGM·Lion 24 May 14 - 12:29 PM
Keith A of Hertford 24 May 14 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 01:44 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 03:12 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 14 - 03:22 PM
MGM·Lion 25 May 14 - 01:12 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 14 - 02:50 AM
MGM·Lion 25 May 14 - 03:10 AM
GUEST,Musket 25 May 14 - 03:38 AM
MGM·Lion 25 May 14 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 14 - 04:06 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 14 - 04:22 AM
MGM·Lion 25 May 14 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 14 - 06:27 AM
MGM·Lion 25 May 14 - 06:36 AM
Musket 25 May 14 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 14 - 07:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 14 - 09:27 AM
MGM·Lion 25 May 14 - 09:54 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 14 - 12:37 PM
MGM·Lion 25 May 14 - 12:51 PM
Keith A of Hertford 25 May 14 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Musket 26 May 14 - 03:06 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 14 - 03:09 AM
BrendanB 26 May 14 - 05:26 AM
GUEST 26 May 14 - 05:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 14 - 07:34 AM
Musket 26 May 14 - 02:34 PM
Keith A of Hertford 26 May 14 - 03:05 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 14 - 07:26 AM
Musket 28 May 14 - 10:19 AM
bobad 28 May 14 - 10:42 AM
MGM·Lion 28 May 14 - 12:48 PM
GUEST,Musket 28 May 14 - 01:17 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 14 - 01:38 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 14 - 01:46 PM
bobad 28 May 14 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Musket 28 May 14 - 03:11 PM
MGM·Lion 28 May 14 - 04:40 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 May 14 - 05:31 PM
bobad 28 May 14 - 06:40 PM
bobad 28 May 14 - 06:51 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 14 - 07:17 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 14 - 07:37 AM
Musket 29 May 14 - 07:41 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 14 - 07:55 AM
bobad 29 May 14 - 08:11 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 14 - 08:16 AM
bobad 29 May 14 - 08:19 AM
Musket 29 May 14 - 08:33 AM
bobad 29 May 14 - 08:59 AM
Greg F. 29 May 14 - 10:00 AM
bobad 29 May 14 - 10:13 AM
MGM·Lion 29 May 14 - 01:39 PM
bobad 29 May 14 - 01:54 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 14 - 01:56 PM
akenaton 29 May 14 - 02:19 PM
Musket 29 May 14 - 03:01 PM
Musket 29 May 14 - 03:03 PM
MGM·Lion 29 May 14 - 04:00 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 14 - 03:15 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 04:03 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 14 - 04:49 AM
Musket 30 May 14 - 05:45 AM
bobad 30 May 14 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 14 - 08:17 AM
Musket 30 May 14 - 08:24 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 08:27 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 08:44 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 08:51 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 09:16 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 09:21 AM
bobad 30 May 14 - 09:28 AM
Jim Carroll 30 May 14 - 10:04 AM
Musket 30 May 14 - 10:37 AM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 01:00 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 14 - 01:21 PM
MGM·Lion 30 May 14 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 14 - 01:48 PM
Musket 30 May 14 - 01:52 PM
Steve Shaw 30 May 14 - 07:25 PM
bobad 30 May 14 - 08:35 PM
MGM·Lion 31 May 14 - 12:45 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 14 - 03:16 AM
GUEST,Musket 31 May 14 - 03:27 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 14 - 03:33 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 14 - 03:36 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 14 - 03:43 AM
Keith A of Hertford 31 May 14 - 03:50 AM
GUEST,Musket 31 May 14 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 14 - 04:25 AM
MGM·Lion 31 May 14 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 14 - 01:27 PM
Greg F. 31 May 14 - 01:32 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 14 - 02:03 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 14 - 07:35 PM
Steve Shaw 31 May 14 - 07:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 12:19 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 12:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 12:33 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 12:58 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 01:16 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 01:45 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 02:18 AM
GUEST,Saint Musket 01 Jun 14 - 02:43 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 02:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 03:18 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 03:43 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 03:58 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 04:11 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jun 14 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 04:35 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 05:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 14 - 05:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 05:31 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 05:39 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 06:08 AM
bobad 01 Jun 14 - 06:40 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 06:50 AM
bobad 01 Jun 14 - 07:08 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jun 14 - 07:11 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 07:27 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 08:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 14 - 08:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 09:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 14 - 10:02 AM
bobad 01 Jun 14 - 10:38 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 10:43 AM
Greg F. 01 Jun 14 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jun 14 - 11:30 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 11:31 AM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 11:33 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 11:58 AM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 12:40 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 12:46 PM
GUEST,Musket 01 Jun 14 - 12:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 12:54 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 01:10 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 01:48 PM
Keith A of Hertford 01 Jun 14 - 01:51 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM
MGM·Lion 01 Jun 14 - 02:00 PM
Greg F. 01 Jun 14 - 05:25 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 14 - 06:22 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 14 - 06:30 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 14 - 06:39 PM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 12:33 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 12:51 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 02:40 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 02:48 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 03:24 AM
akenaton 02 Jun 14 - 03:30 AM
akenaton 02 Jun 14 - 04:11 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 04:27 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 04:40 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 04:47 AM
Musket 02 Jun 14 - 04:51 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 06:55 AM
GUEST,Seaham cemetry 02 Jun 14 - 07:10 AM
Musket 02 Jun 14 - 07:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 07:31 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 07:38 AM
MGM·Lion 02 Jun 14 - 07:42 AM
bobad 02 Jun 14 - 07:56 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 08:04 AM
Musket 02 Jun 14 - 08:25 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 14 - 08:29 AM
Greg F. 02 Jun 14 - 08:58 AM
Musket 02 Jun 14 - 09:01 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 02 Jun 14 - 09:18 AM
bobad 02 Jun 14 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,# 02 Jun 14 - 09:51 AM
Musket 02 Jun 14 - 10:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 14 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 02 Jun 14 - 10:55 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 11:04 AM
GUEST,Troubadour 02 Jun 14 - 11:18 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 11:38 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 14 - 11:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,# 02 Jun 14 - 11:59 AM
Greg F. 02 Jun 14 - 12:45 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 14 - 01:49 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 14 - 02:59 PM
GUEST,# 02 Jun 14 - 03:26 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 04:08 PM
GUEST,For info 02 Jun 14 - 05:32 PM
Keith A of Hertford 02 Jun 14 - 06:26 PM
GUEST,Musket 02 Jun 14 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 14 - 07:25 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 14 - 07:37 PM
GUEST,# 02 Jun 14 - 09:12 PM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 14 - 12:51 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 02:35 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 03:04 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jun 14 - 03:20 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 03:53 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jun 14 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM
GUEST,for info 03 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 14 - 04:21 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 04:31 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 04:46 AM
GUEST,for info 03 Jun 14 - 04:48 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 14 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 14 - 05:52 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 14 - 06:05 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 14 - 07:24 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Hack spotter Musket 03 Jun 14 - 07:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jun 14 - 07:59 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 14 - 09:14 AM
Musket 03 Jun 14 - 09:51 AM
Teribus 03 Jun 14 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 14 - 10:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 14 - 11:21 AM
MGM·Lion 03 Jun 14 - 11:26 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 14 - 11:30 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Jun 14 - 01:06 PM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jun 14 - 01:15 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 14 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Musket 03 Jun 14 - 03:16 PM
Keith A of Hertford 03 Jun 14 - 03:37 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 14 - 03:58 PM
Greg F. 03 Jun 14 - 05:33 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 14 - 06:04 PM
bobad 03 Jun 14 - 06:40 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 14 - 07:31 PM
Greg F. 03 Jun 14 - 08:14 PM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jun 14 - 01:18 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 03:03 AM
Teribus 04 Jun 14 - 03:03 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 03:09 AM
Musket 04 Jun 14 - 03:35 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 03:48 AM
Teribus 04 Jun 14 - 03:59 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 04:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 04:14 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 04:38 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 04:48 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 05:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 05:04 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 05:08 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jun 14 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jun 14 - 06:17 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 06:17 AM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 06:42 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 07:19 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Musket 04 Jun 14 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 07:56 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 14 - 07:59 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 08:27 AM
Musket 04 Jun 14 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 08:38 AM
Teribus 04 Jun 14 - 09:23 AM
beardedbruce 04 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 14 - 09:48 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 14 - 09:50 AM
bobad 04 Jun 14 - 10:29 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 10:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 10:50 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 14 - 11:25 AM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 12:16 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 12:28 PM
MGM·Lion 04 Jun 14 - 12:42 PM
Jim Carroll 04 Jun 14 - 02:04 PM
Keith A of Hertford 04 Jun 14 - 02:30 PM
GUEST 05 Jun 14 - 02:18 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 14 - 02:41 AM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jun 14 - 03:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 03:50 AM
Musket 05 Jun 14 - 06:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 06:38 AM
Musket 05 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM
bobad 05 Jun 14 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 05 Jun 14 - 08:58 AM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 09:19 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Jun 14 - 03:54 PM
GUEST,Musket 05 Jun 14 - 04:12 PM
Keith A of Hertford 05 Jun 14 - 04:58 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 14 - 06:18 PM
MGM·Lion 05 Jun 14 - 06:21 PM
bobad 05 Jun 14 - 06:25 PM
Greg F. 05 Jun 14 - 07:01 PM
bobad 05 Jun 14 - 07:12 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Jun 14 - 07:35 PM
bobad 05 Jun 14 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jun 14 - 02:07 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 03:06 AM
akenaton 06 Jun 14 - 03:24 AM
Keith A of Hertford 06 Jun 14 - 04:23 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 05:02 AM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jun 14 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 07:34 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 07:40 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jun 14 - 07:42 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 07:46 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 14 - 10:42 AM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 10:55 AM
Musket 06 Jun 14 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 12:03 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 02:10 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 02:50 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 14 - 02:54 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 14 - 03:41 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 03:54 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 04:06 PM
Greg F. 06 Jun 14 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Musket 06 Jun 14 - 05:07 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 06:25 PM
Greg F. 06 Jun 14 - 06:31 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 06:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jun 14 - 06:41 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 06:42 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM
MGM·Lion 06 Jun 14 - 06:50 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Jun 14 - 08:21 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 12:40 AM
GUEST,Musket 07 Jun 14 - 03:20 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 03:34 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,Musket 07 Jun 14 - 03:52 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 04:08 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 05:54 AM
Musket 07 Jun 14 - 06:51 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 14 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 07:19 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 07:24 AM
GUEST,Musket 07 Jun 14 - 07:26 AM
akenaton 07 Jun 14 - 07:28 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 07:41 AM
Greg F. 07 Jun 14 - 07:53 AM
bobad 07 Jun 14 - 08:00 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 08:04 AM
akenaton 07 Jun 14 - 08:11 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 14 - 08:28 AM
Keith A of Hertford 07 Jun 14 - 08:38 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 08:38 AM
bobad 07 Jun 14 - 08:42 AM
Greg F. 07 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 12:51 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 12:56 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 01:14 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 01:21 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 01:39 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 01:41 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 14 - 01:46 PM
MGM·Lion 07 Jun 14 - 07:52 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jun 14 - 08:27 PM
Musket 08 Jun 14 - 06:57 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 04:36 AM
akenaton 09 Jun 14 - 05:25 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 05:47 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 05:54 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 06:08 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 06:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Jun 14 - 06:30 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 06:46 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 08:20 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 14 - 08:26 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 08:40 AM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 08:45 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 08:51 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 09:45 AM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 11:10 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 14 - 11:17 AM
Greg F. 09 Jun 14 - 11:44 AM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 11:53 AM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 14 - 12:02 PM
Greg F. 09 Jun 14 - 12:19 PM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 12:20 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 01:16 PM
Greg F. 09 Jun 14 - 01:57 PM
beardedbruce 09 Jun 14 - 02:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Jun 14 - 02:10 PM
MGM·Lion 09 Jun 14 - 02:13 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 14 - 02:49 PM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 03:00 PM
Musket 09 Jun 14 - 03:35 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 14 - 03:39 PM
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pdq 09 Jul 14 - 04:07 PM
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Subject: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Brian May
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:59 AM

Much as I dislike Tony Blair as someone who's caused as much aggravation as he's mitigated, however, I find myself agreeing with him on this statement:

"In significant and controversial intervention, the former Prime Minister suggested that, as a result of failures in Iraq and Afghanistan, governments in Europe and America had become "curiously reluctant to acknowledge" Islamic extremism."

I seem to remember taking a fair bit of flak on this forum for being a 'racist bigot' et al for pointing this out a couple of years ago.

The 'West' ignores this threat to our lifestyle at our peril. Until governments and institutions get 'unafraid' to call a spade a spade (no pun intended) and stop pussy-footing around when dealing with RADICAL Muslims and CRIMINAL Muslims, we are going to remain 'curiously reluctant' to acknowledge and deal with the threat.

In that statement I am referring only (NB - ONLY) to the law-breakers, inciting or carrying out attacks, grooming young girls etc etc, NOT the vast majority of peaceful and law-abiding folk of ANY religion, colour or creed.

It does seem that when the word 'Muslim' is added to the sentence, it suddenly all gets far more complicated for our government both central and local including Law Enforcement agencies.



OK, PC do-gooders brigade . . . your shout . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 06:15 AM

I thought you were into home made guitars, star gazing and saving badgers?

Not all badgers, just the radicalised bastard ones eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Brian May
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 07:21 AM

Ho ho ho, you are a wag . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Stu
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 07:29 AM

Another kipper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 08:43 AM

" curiously reluctant to acknowledge" Islamic extremism.

You're kidding, right?

Here in the US we're fed fear-mongering "Muslims gonna get yo momma" nonsense on a daily basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Brian May
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 09:18 AM

Not my words Greg, the ex Prime Minister (the one extracted from George W Bush's ass) . . . the current UN Middle East envoy.

It's not so much fear-mongering as acknowledging the problem. There is a current investigation into whether radical islam is infiltrating the education system in Birmingham (ours).

It would appear 'the system' is finally waking up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 09:45 AM

I think fifteen schools are being investigated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 10:28 AM

Do keep in mind that these are allegations, not facts at this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 10:29 AM

True, Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:01 PM

Non-believers can now be executed in Saudi Arabia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 12:54 PM

So what, Greg? Are these the only factors to be considered? Is the fact that Fusilier Rigby is dead an 'allegation'?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:07 PM

"Is the fact that Fusilier Rigby is dead an 'allegation'?"
A statement by those concerned was made on the BBC pointing out that the present investigations have nothing whatever to do with terrorist attacks - nothing that hase been stated since has changed that statement.
"law-breakers, inciting or carrying out attacks, grooming young girls"
Warnings by politicians, police and the judiciary have consistently insisted that none of these are in any way connected with being a Muslim; in fact, they all have warned of the danger of the actions of a tiny handful of fanatics being used by extremist bigots.
The official survey on the link between Islam and these crimes confirmed this and gave the same warnings.
Using the corpse of a dead soldier as a soapbox for prejudice seems to indicate that some people didn't take a lot of notice of those warnings.
Sam old same old, it would appear.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:20 PM

Same old same old    Jim Carroll   , it would appear............



"Using the corpse of a dead soldier as a soapbox for prejudice" --

Oh dear: how pathetically facile, if don't take into account how he came to be dead. Complications following a bout of hay fever, was it? If disapproval of hacking an innocent passer-by to death for none but self-defined 'ideological' reasons is to be defined as 'prejudice', then it can only be by someone with scant conception of what 'prejudice' actually is.

I'm 'prejudiced' against rapists too, as it happens. And 'prejudiced' against fraudulent bankers' And 'prejudiced' against the person who burgled my cousin's house a few years ago & shat on the floor before leaving as a calling card.

And, particularly 'prejudiced' against apologists for all these, who will dismiss reasoned disapproval as 'prejudice'.



Same old same old    Jim Carroll   , it would appear.

AY


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:24 PM

The words in the link "...unsigned and unverified document..." suggest that there isn't as yet much solid evidence. But all schools have to be inspected regularly, and having myself suffered Ofsted Inspections, there isn't much that gets past their scrutiny. They interview parents, staff, community members, ancillary workers, pupils, managers, the lot. If they're any good at all, they'll spot any anomalies in the school's systems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:32 PM

No Mike - it was religious fanatics wot dunnit, not the Muslim peopel as a whole - nasty thing, religious fanaticism, whoever carries it out.
Nearly as bad as the bigotry that condemns an entire culture for the crimes of a few criminals.
Good job you haven't an irrational fear of spiders, otherwise we'd all be overrun by flies.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 01:50 PM

Who alleged that an entire people was responsible? But an entire ideology as widely interpreted by those agreed by adherents to be authorised to do so might just be a different matter. It's called Sharia, Jihad, Ahmadiyya, among other things. Quite widely accepted it appears. Have you heard about it?

Of course, if asked what he thinks of the late Mr Rigby being 'the late', no doubt Mr Carroll would make all sorts of noises of generalised disapproval. And to think he has accused me of 'lip-service' before now, in relation to the most acute disappointment of my whole life, the betrayal of all my generation's hopes and aspirations by the present administration of the State of Israel.

For shame, James


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 02:52 PM

First God made idiots. That was for practice. Then it made school boards.

Mark Twain


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:04 PM

"But an entire ideology as widely interpreted by those agreed by adherents to be authorised to do so might just be a different matter"
As democratic as that huh?
What exactly are you proposing - that we should ship them all back, like your old matey Eunuch suggested - or nowadays, Marine's new beau, Farrago?
Ot maybe tattoo a number on their arms - that should do it, don'cha think.
You're a bigot Mike - and one that should know better.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:25 PM

Given the proximity in time of Camermoron's sudden addiction to bible-thumping to B.Liar's attempts to rustle up a new crusade, I'd say the Xtian fundagelical right-wing loonies and megalomaniacs are on the march in the UK. Worrying. The mentally ill in positions of influence and power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 03:44 PM

The mentally ill in positions of influence and power.

They always have been, Richard. Anyone who thinks that they can run a country and govern people cannot be mentally stable. A better idea would be to vote for who you would think best suited to perform these tasks. If they don't want to do it, all the better!

Back to the thread. It does say Islamic radicalism. Just a hint for those who think it is anti Islam. I don't believe it is. It is anti radicalism. I think Brian could have as easily started a thread about Christian radicalism or Communist radicalism. They are all as bad as each other. He would have got the same reaction. But probably from different people.

Just my opinion of course.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 04:58 PM

Radicalisation is ugly. It is wrong and it is dangerous.

It is not a product of Islam. It is a product of politics. What you can't get by the ballot box, get by telling thugs they are doing God's work.

The problem as ever is that many people are shallow enough to believe what they are told if they are also told God wants them to do it too. Witness the so called jihad. Also note the Anglican Church in Uganda supporting death sentence for being gay.

Voltaire yet again. Those that can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

There are over 65 million people in The UK. Less than a million go to church , yet our Prime Minister wants to piss off non Christians even more. Rational people can and will ignore the cynical political posturing but other people with a different imaginary friend will feel isolated and threatened.

Well done Cameron. You and your tambourine rattling idiots show the ugly side of religion, regardless of flavour. Make no mistake, Bliar's intervention was planned to pounce on Cameron's Jesus kick. Party politics are nothing when it comes to trying to drag us back to a superstitious dark age.

Fuck 'em. All of 'em.


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Subject: ADD: Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues (Dylan)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:06 PM

So what, Greg? Are these the only factors to be considered?

So what, ~M~?

So all this hysteria is based on a single anonymous letter, no facts, no verification, no documentation, no nothing.

Seems to me that ol' Tailgunner Joe McCarthy had more evidence of his nefarious and dastardly Commie plots.

Thus, I think its a good place to enter the following: simply read "Muslim" for "Commie", "Communist" and "Reds":

Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues
by Bob Dylan

Well, I was feelin' sad and feelin' blue
I didn't know what in the world I wus gonna do
Them Communists they wus comin' around
They wus in the air
They wus on the ground
They wouldn't gimme no peace . . .

So I run down most hurriedly
And joined up with the John Birch Society
I got me a secret membership card
And started off a-walkin' down the road
Yee-hoo, I'm a real John Bircher now!
Look out you Commies!

Now we all agree with Hitler's views
Although he killed six million Jews
It don't matter too much that he was a Fascist
At least you can't say he was a Communist!
That's to say like if you got a cold you take a shot of malaria

Well, I wus lookin' everywhere for them gol-darned Reds
I got up in the mornin' 'n' looked under my bed
Looked in the sink, behind the door
Looked in the glove compartment of my car
Couldn't find 'em . . .

I wus lookin' high an' low for them Reds everywhere
I wus lookin' in the sink an' underneath the chair
I looked way up my chimney hole
I even looked deep down inside my toilet bowl
They got away . . .

Well, I wus sittin' home alone an' started to sweat
Figured they wus in my T.V. set
Peeked behind the picture frame
Got a shock from my feet, hittin' right up in the brain
Them Reds caused it!
I know they did . . . them hard-core ones

Well, I quit my job so I could work all alone
Then I changed my name to Sherlock Holmes
Followed some clues from my detective bag
And discovered they wus red stripes on the American flag!
That ol' Betsy Ross . . .

Well, I investigated all the books in the library
Ninety percent of 'em gotta be burned away
I investigated all the people that I knowed
Ninety-eight percent of them gotta go
The other two percent are fellow Birchers . . . just like me

Now Eisenhower, he's a Russian spy
Lincoln, Jefferson and that Roosevelt guy
To my knowledge there's just one man
That's really a true American: George Lincoln Rockwell
I know for a fact he hates Commies cus he picketed the movie Exodus

Well, I fin'ly started thinkin' straight
When I run outa things to investigate
Couldn't imagine doin' anything else
So now I'm sittin' home investigatin' myself!
Hope I don't find out anything . . . hmm, great God!


Copyright © 1970 by Special Rider Music; renewed 1998 by Special Rider Music


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:16 PM

I am not "proposing" anything, Jim. Not my job to propose. Simply pointing out an intractable problem with which we are saddled, and to which there may well be no solution to be 'proposed'. One can never start anywhere but here. I am, however, I freely admit, pessimistic about the future, glad that I shall not be around when this particular brood of chickens comes home to roost; and that I have no children to fret about.

Meanwhile, congratulations on the crack about numbers tattooed on arms (as on the arms of my first cousins once removed from Bucharest, you mean?). Of a cheapness which few but the egregious Carroll could have achieved. Well done again!

And you call me a bigot. Well a good laugh to go to bed on is always something to appreciate.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 05:22 PM

For clarity, that should have been "first-cousins-once-removed"; ie my father's first-cousins, not my own first-cousins who on one occasion got taken off somewhere -- altho, as you will gather, some of these did! One of them survived. My grandmother got a letter from her in Roumanian in late-1945. Never knew exactly what happened to the others.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:03 AM

"I am not "proposing" anything, Jim"
And you're "not" doing it very well Mike, just stirring up hate and suspicion by inviting people to share your own private "volcano"
Jim Carroll
"as on the arms of my first cousins once removed from Bucharest, you mean"
Don't know that one Mike - I do remember the one on the arm of my girl friend's mother though
She used to show it to people in the hope that it would never happen again.
Small chance, it would appear.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:11 AM

Well, there might be a volcano or there might not. I shan't know, nor will my descendants as I am childless. Time will tell, is all. But if you deny the possibility of such a volcano, threat, whevs, it seems obvious to me you are living in a fool's paradise. I genuinely hope you are the one who is right. But I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:30 AM

" Time will tell, is all. But if you deny the possibility of such a volcano, threat"
Of course I deny it - Muslims living in Britain are identifies as the most law abiding and industrious group entering the country - stated over and over again by the powers that be, who have all recognised, or at least, paid lip-service to their contribution to British society.
Personally, if I had the (totally unwanted) choice of choosing my neighbour - if it came down to you (who I have never met) or any of the many Muslims I have met - no competition.
But dig out some old Folk Reviews I have been intending to burn for some time now
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:33 AM

Sorry - correction - wrote it rather emotionally, I'm afraid
Should read "Must dig out some old Folk Reviews"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:44 AM

Seems like the Birmingham schools "infiltration" is a hoax. Ho hum.

Good letter in today's Grauniad that points out that Blair would have been arrested had his statement about uniting with Russia against militant Islam been turned around and made by an Islamist urging a united Islam to fight western extremists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:57 AM

I don't think anyone has said that Muslims are a threat, Jim. The threat is radicalism from any quarter.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:16 AM

It is a relief to hear that the Birmingham story was a hoax, but I cannot find anything about it.
Can you share your news with us Steve?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:19 AM

Returning to the speech, how can we be sure that the UN Middle East Peace Envoy is completely wrong and there is no threat to peace and stability?
What reassurance would yo give to the people of Nigeria say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:34 AM

"The threat is radicalism from any quarter. "
Absolutely Dave - it's been my argument all along
Religion (any religion) and politics is a toxic mix and any religious organisation that gains a toe-hold in the running of a country or any of its temporal institutions, will invariably exploit that influence for their own purpose.
Following the clerical abuse revelations here in Ireland, there is now a fascinating battle taking place over what influence the Church should continue to have over the education system.
One person's 'radicalism' is often another's 'devoutness'.
No child should ever be taught to look down on those of other faiths - many, even most are by their various religions - Christianity being a 'front runner' in the "forgivness" stakes.
I was told here not long ago that I was being "prayed for" for my being a sinner - gives one a warm feeling, does't it (or maybe you are one of the unluck ones who doesn't have anybody praying for you)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:37 AM

who doesn't have anybody praying for you

I'm beyond redemption already, Jim!

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:51 AM

It's all over the news. Just google Birmingham schools hoax. Do bear in mind that my post reflected the current state of play in that I used the word "seems".


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:57 AM

By far the biggest threat to peace and stability came from Bush and Blair. Millions killed or maimed, millions impoverished, millions radicalised, millions now living in insecurity, and all based on their lies. Turned out to be somewhat more than just a threat, actually, millions would say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 08:34 AM

Steve, all I can find are a few individuals who claim it is a hoax.
I think the authorities are still taking it seriously, some schools have been put in special measures over it, and the police investigation continues.

It is a bit premature to state "Seems like the Birmingham schools "infiltration" is a hoax." but let us hope you are proved right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 08:46 AM

I should be interested in some takes on Aayan Hirsi Ali. In particular, in view of his constant repetitions of how Islam is all peacefulness & sweetness & light and it must have been just accidents that befell the Towers & Rigby & the Dutch director Van Gogh & such, from Mr Carroll; especially in re trhe last 5 lines quoted below. (This is a born Muslim woman, remember).

extracts from her wikipedia entry

Ayaan Hirsi Al (born 13 November 1969) is a Somali-born American (formerly Dutch) women's rights and atheist activist, writer and politician who is known for her views critical of female genital mutilation and Islam. She wrote the screenplay for Theo van Gogh's movie Submission, after which she and the director both received death threats. He was assassinated.

On Palestinians: "I have visited the Palestinian quarters in Jerusalem. Their side is dilapidated, for which they blame the Israelis. In private, however, I met a young Palestinian who spoke excellent English. There were no cameras and no notebooks. He said the situation was partly their own fault, with much of the money sent from abroad to build Palestine being stolen by corrupt leaders".

In an interview in the London Evening Standard, Hirsi Ali characterizes Islam as "the new fascism": "Just like Nazism started with Hitler's vision, the Islamic vision is a caliphate — a society ruled by Sharia law – in which women who have sex before marriage are stoned to death, homosexuals are beaten, and apostates like me are killed. Sharia law is as inimical to liberal democracy as Nazism." In this interview, she also made it clear that in her opinion it is not "a fringe group of radical Muslims who've hijacked Islam and that the majority of Muslims are moderate. [...] Violence is inherent in Islam – it's a destructive, nihilistic cult of death. It legitimates murder."

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 08:55 AM

"Hirsi Ali characterizes Islam as "the new fascism":"
She also is a strong supporter of religious genital mutilation - sorry - don't get your point.
You can always find a supporter for your case and use it to make your argument if you ignore the facts.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:03 AM

Apologies - misread her profile - she does not support genital mutilation, but she does condemn it as practiced by Muslims and Jews alike
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:08 AM

Putting Ms Ali in context - from the "Antisemitic" Economist
Jim Carroll

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Enlightened intolerance
Apr 16th 2014, 16:08 by M.S.
Timekeeper
EARLIER this month Brandeis University rescinded its offer of an honorary degree to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the Somali-born women's rights activist, saying its officials had not been fully aware of some her more scathing remarks on Islam. Conservatives have accused Brandeis of muzzling Ms Hirsi Ali and bowing to Muslim pressure groups. Liberals have wondered how the university could possibly have overlooked Ms Hirsi Ali's condemnations, not just of radical Islam, but of Islam as such. At the risk of coming off as a postmodern multi-culti squish, it seems to me that this discussion suffers from a lack of cultural context—but not the cultural context you're thinking of. The way Ms Hirsi Ali talks about Islam strikes American liberals as strangely intolerant, but it has its roots in the prevailing discourse on religious freedom and Islam in the country where Ms Hirsi Ali first began seriously tackling these issues: the Netherlands.

As Ms Hirsi Ali noted in an interview on Fox News, the most-cited of her objectionable statements on Islam came in a 2007 interview with Reason magazine. In that interview she said it was necessary to "defeat" Islam and that "we are at war with Islam", including in the military sense of the word. In another 2007 interview, with the London Evening Standard, she called Islam "the new fascism" and "a destructive, nihilistic cult of death". Characterising an entire religion in this way is considered entirely beyond the pale in educated American society; while some small right-wing or evangelical Christian organisations demonise Islam as an enemy, mainstream conservatives, and for that matter neoconservatives, characterise only radical Islam as a threat. Actually, bigotry against Muslims in America is common enough, but the public expression of such prejudice by figures of authority is taboo. Wholesale condemnations of existing religions just aren't done in American politics. Once-open prejudices against Catholics and Jews were gradually wrung out of the public sphere in a process that started in the 1940s and was essentially wrapped up by the 1970s. The explicit consensus in America is ecumenical and strongly pro-religious, and Americans generally sense that when they single out one faith and aggressively criticise its spiritual content, they're violating a national ethical code.

This is not quite the case in the Netherlands, where Ms Hirsi Ali developed her feminist critique of Islam and served as an MP for the centre-right Liberal party. To recap her story: Ms Hirsi Ali came to the Netherlands in 1992, fleeing an arranged marriage in Kenya. She was granted refugee status and ultimately a Dutch passport, and earned a master's degree that led her into outreach work with Muslim immigrant women, initially in affiliation with the Labour party. Her politics shifted steadily rightward, due in part to the repression of women she saw in immigrant communities and in part to the September 11th attacks. In 2004 she made a deliberately provocative, rather surreal short film decrying Muslim oppression of women with the bomb-throwing TV director and personality Theo van Gogh; in response, a young Muslim extremist murdered Mr van Gogh. With her extraordinary charisma and impressively elegant Dutch, Ms Hirsi Ali was ultimately invited to run for parliament by the centre-right Liberals, and served from 2003 until 2006, when a scandal over her immigration status (she admitted to having concealed her name and lied about other details) led the hard-line interior minister to revoke her Dutch passport. She moved to America shortly thereafter, taking a job at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank. (The affair, incidentally, precipitated the fall of the Dutch government.)

Returning to the theme: while the way Ms Hirsi Ali talks about Islam sounds extreme to the American ear, it doesn't sound as extreme to the Dutch ear. To take the most obvious example, Geert Wilders, the leader of the far-right Party for Freedom (PVV), has been calling for banning the Koran since 2007. To legitimate this sort of language, Mr Wilders has advanced the novel claim that Islam is not a religion at all, but a totalitarian ideology. Of course, Mr Wilders leads the farthest-right party in the Dutch political landscape, one with which most Dutch parties have refused to cooperate. Nevertheless, most Dutch citizens don't see Mr Wilders' PVV as an extreme-right party. This is incomprehensible to Americans: a party that calls for banning the Koran and terms Islam a totalitarian ideology seems by definition extreme-right in an American context. Yet intelligent, tolerant mainstream Dutch and Americans can go back and forth on this question in utter bafflement.

And Mr Wilders doesn't exist in a vacuum. He launched the PVV in 2006, after dropping out of the Liberal party just when Ms Hirsi Ali was becoming one of its biggest stars. A few years earlier, Pim Fortuyn, the flamboyantly gay populist politician, had blazed the trail for such language by terming Islam a "backward religion". Beginning with Mr Fortuyn's rise in 2001, Dutch politics was seized by an impulse to cast off "politically correct" taboos on negative characterisations of (mainly Muslim) immigrants, and to "name the real problems" of crime, failure to integrate, and suppression of the rights of women and gays among immigrant communities. Ms Hirsi Ali's sharp anti-Muslim language did not spring out of nowhere; she was part of this broader shift in Dutch politics and political language.

At a deeper level, while the Netherlands has long been renowned for, or even defined by, its religious tolerance, the Dutch variety of tolerance is not the same as the American one. For example, I've repeatedly encountered non-religious Dutch who see no difference between a religion and a belief or opinion, and feel that religions therefore don't deserve any kind of special consideration, be it in terms of schooling, of exemptions from public rules and duties, or of conversational deference or respect. That view may be shared in certain emphatically atheist quarters in America, but it seems much more widespread in the Netherlands. To some extent this may be rooted in the much lower level of Dutch religiosity; 21% of Dutch believe in God, against 61% of Americans, and Dutch religiosity declined markedly from 1991-2008. And while Americans who do not actually go to church often nevertheless identify with some denomination on a family basis, Dutch who do not believe or worship tend to describe themselves simply as having no religion. One sometimes gets the sense that non-religious Dutch are so alienated from religious tradition that they lack empathetic understanding of what belonging to a faith is like.

But then, the bargains entailed in the Dutch tradition of religious tolerance have always worked differently than those in America. From the late 19th century to the 1960s, the Dutch hewed to a social system called "pillarisation", in which the country's Protestant and Catholic communities lived, studied and voted in largely segregated blocs, each with their own schools, newspapers, and political parties. The socialist movement formed a third, non-religious bloc. The blocs were often openly disdainful of each other, and it's not surprising that the Dutch tend to be more willing than Americans to bluntly criticise the substance of others' religions, just as they might criticise a political ideology. Even in the 17th century, when the Netherlands became a haven for religious refugees from the 30 Years' War and the Inquisition, tolerance was largely seen as a pragmatic virtue, good for business, so long as those with alien faiths kept their houses of worship out of sight. One might look even further back: many of the Netherlands' firmest critics of religion belong to the country's strong Humanist movement, which traces its roots to the atheistic or pan-theistic philosophy of that greatest apostate of Amsterdam's Jewish community, Baruch Spinoza. The intellectual historian Jonathan Israel makes Spinoza the model for what he terms the "radical" wing of the European Enlightenment, which totally rejected religious authority, in contrast to more moderate figures such as Descartes; and one can hear some echoes of Spinoza in Ms Hirsi Ali's uncompromising turn away from, and finally complete rejection of, her native Islam.

The interview in which Ms Hirsi Ali called for a "war" on Islam came in 2007, just a year after she had left the Netherlands. In deciding to rescind its offer of an honorary degree to her, Brandeis was in part drawing a line between the kind of discourse on religion that is acceptable in mainstream American intellectual life, and the kind that has arisen over the past decade and a half in the Netherlands. The university was not silencing Ms Hirsi Ali; it still invited her to come to the university to "engage in a dialogue". As Isaac Chotiner puts it, the "controversy isn't about shunning someone from polite society. It is about giving a person an honorary degree." Asking Ms Hirsi Ali to speak to students at Brandeis is a great idea; giving her an honorary degree as part of graduation ceremonies suggests that Brandeis thinks calling for a war on Islam is an acceptable statement within the bounds of normal political and social discourse. The fact that such statements are not welcomed in American public discourse is one reason why the American model of integration and tolerance works better than the Dutch model, and why the Netherlands continues to be wracked by tensions over Islam and integration—years after those tensions forced Ms Hirsi Ali herself to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:38 AM

Seems like the Birmingham schools "infiltration" is a hoax.

DAMN! Imagine my surprise.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

http://rt.com/news/radical-islam-uk-schools-678/

The story is over six weeks old. Does anyone know what the national school authorities--if indeed anyone's aware who that is--have done so far?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:57 AM

Cocked up there rather, didn't you, Jim? Glad you noticed your own booboo before it had to be pointed out to you. No pun intended in first word of this post, but I am opposed to Gentl Mutltn for both sexes also.

Had read that Economist piece before. Thoroughly equivocal and evasive & fence·sitting in tone IMO. So do you think Brandeis was right to have withdrawn their offer of an Hon Degree over something she had said 6 years before they offered it in the first place, which they must have known about if they had done the most minimal research into their putative candidate? If not, then, why dear me, who could possibly have got at them to change their minds, I wonder?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 10:29 AM

Apropos of the hoax, obviously all the politicos, school inspectors and sundry anti-Muslims are gonna throw their hands in the air and admit they've been duped, aren't they? Yeah, That's what'll happen. Yeah. Sure thing.




Alternatively, it'll all just....quietly....fade....away....


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 10:49 AM

So you dismiss it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

Daily Telegraph this week.
"Khalid Mahmood, the (Muslim) Labour MP for Birmingham Perry Barr, said the allegations of a plot were credible.
"There is most definitely a plot by a small group of individuals and the plot actually affects the majority of the Muslim community in Birmingham," he said."

"The alleged plot by Islamic radicals to take control of a series of schools in Birmingham is the product of a little-understood power struggle between Muslim denominations, Mr Straw, the MP for Blackburn said."

"An anti-Semitic preacher who sympathises with Al-Qaeda was invited to address students at Park View school, Department for Education inspectors found.
At least six of the 18 schools said to be involved in the plot will be failed by Ofsted, a measure which normally leads to them being placed in special measures and their leadership team replaced."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/10778465/Muslims-must-accept-Britains-Christian-values-says-former-Home-Secretary.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:08 AM

"Cocked up there rather, didn't you, Jim?"
Don't gloat Mike - it doesn't become even you.
I'd looked her up when you mentioned her first, time time ago and mis-read her profile then, but realised that my interpretation didn't make sense, so I took the trouble to re-read it.
I'm not really surprised that you don't hesitate to make political capital from it, even though I corrected my mistake - I might have been in the past, but not now
Perhaps a couple of typooss might help you make your case.
I go along with what much of she says, but I find her Islamophobic tone far more likely to antagonise that to convert and can see why her doctorate has been revoked.
Still don't get your point - sorry.
Jimmm Carolll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:38 AM

Some figures from Antisemitic Gallup
Islamophobia league
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:43 AM

Is the UN Envoy an Islamophobe in your opinion?
(Just asking. Not arguing)


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 11:49 AM

" it was religious fanatics wot dunnit, not the Muslim peopel as a whole "

This would characterize and include Saudi Arabia with King Abdullah's support.

The same fanaticism could be applied to Christianity as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

Can't remember any UN ambassador declaring war on Islam as the lady did
Just answering - not arguing
"The interview in which Ms Hirsi Ali called for a "war" on Islam came in 2007"
No need to really
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:56 PM

Oh, come on Jim, anyone would draw attention & say haha -- 'gloat' if you must; that's a bit of disingenuous capital-making a bit desperate
even for you!.

"Still don't get your point - sorry.
Jimmm Carolll".


What 'point' don't you get, Jim? Can't see how I could spell out my position more clearly. It was laid out in full in two posts on a sometime thread [the Unarmed soldier one, IIRC -- yes; have just checked, 10 & 12 June 2013]. If I haven't made my 'point' sufficiently clearly for you, then turn those up. With dreary predictability, you called them 'racist' I seem to remember; but of course they are not: make much same point as Ms Hirsi Ali's conclusion, in fact.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 02:01 PM

So you dismiss it?

No, Keith- we dismiss YOU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:03 PM

Really can't be arsed Mike - your volcano squatting says everything that needs to be said as does Ms Ali's "war" on Islam ".
Notice that you ignored Ms Ali's comments on Jewish genital mutilation (or should that be multlation - give you something to talk about) though (or should that be tough?)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:22 PM

No I bloody did NOT:

"24 Apr 14 - 09:57 AM
Cocked up there rather, didn't you, Jim? Glad you noticed your own booboo before it had to be pointed out to you. No pun intended in first word of this post, but I am opposed to Gentl Mutltn for both sexes also."


Be ashamed, you nasty slanderous little swine, Carroll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:27 PM

... and lazily assertive too: "can't be arsed" to do anything to answer the stupid bloody questions that you ask, can't you. Ohhh diddiwiddiwiddums den!. You really are beneath contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 05:04 PM

Gee, personal attacks and it's not yet 40 posts into the thread. What a surprise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 05:27 PM

Room full of arguers and no one corrects that number? Pfffft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:36 PM

More probably, if defamatory, to be libellous than slanderous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 06:41 PM

Is the UN Envoy an Islamophobe in your opinion?
(Just asking. Not arguing)


Depends on whether you take into consideration the numbers of killed Muslims he's directly responsible for. If you do, then he is, and I'd agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 07:08 PM

"the betrayal of all my generation's hopes and aspirations by the present administration of the State of Israel"

Michael, would you please explain what you mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 12:41 AM

michaelr: In my youth, young Jews would join explicitly Zionist youth movements with grandiloquent Hebrew names (Habonim = The Builders; Hashomer Hatzair = the Young Watchman, Mizrahi - Eastward, &c): sort of scout movements with camps & Hebrew singing & dancing & so on; to emphasise Jewish identity and work tirelessly for the Zionist aspiration of a modern state for Jews in their historic biblical homeland, in their different ways [they had political variations]. We envisioned a state which would bring the modern world to the Mid-East, at peace with its Arab neighbours, governed by enlightened governments, the whole state being run on the sort of benevolent share-&-share-alike characteristic of the kibbutz movement, by then some ½-C old, the socialist basis of the then Israeli commonweal --

wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz

And look what we have now. Totalitarians oppressive of their minorities, in a constant state of war with their neighbours, establishing settlements with pure perversity in land which means further friction when there is plenty of land elsewhere [the Negev hardly settled as yet], which involves destroying the resources & livelihoods of the unfortunate displaced minority populations of ordinary people just trying to live their lives ---

I could go on. The frustration induced by this bloody-minded awkwardness & intransigence & aggression constitutes, as I say, one of the greatest disappointments of my entire life.

Hope that clear.

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 12:48 AM

I would add for emphasis, in that last bit

"frustration and acute sense of betrayal"


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 01:23 AM

... and yet whenever I express all this, Carroll has the bloody all-fire intolerable impertinence to dismiss it as 'lip-service'. What the hell does he think he knows, the insufferable self-righteous little lefty prig!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 01:45 AM

"Lefty" is not a term of abuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 01:51 AM

Maybe not, Richard; but there is often an element of, as I say, self·righteous priggishness involved in the urging of the views which the word subsumes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 02:05 AM

... that air which Kingsley Amis summed up so cogently in "Why Lucky Jim Turned Right" [1967], as "joining in the massed choir of half-a-million voices crying in the wilderness".


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 02:57 AM

I apologise for not noticing your comment on genital mutilation - my dipping into this 'discussion' - shouldn't multi-task - i'm no good at it.
Still doesn't change any of the facts about what we are discussing - nor does it alter the fact that you have now resorted to a somewhat childish McCarthyite personalised rant rather than respond to facts.
In which case, a suggest you take your Ukip closet fascism and stick it.
Have a good day.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:53 AM

Pray explain or expound as to "McCarthyite personalised rant". Regret have not the remotest idea as to which part of what I have posted this description might refer.

"doesn't change any of the facts about what we are discussing"

Agree with that right enough: deaths of Fusilier Rigby, Theo Van Gogh, Ali Akbar Tabataba'i, Hitoshi Igarashi, Meir Kahane, et al; Pakistani exploitation of vulnerable young females, &c &c - all certainly remain incontrovertible 'facts'.

Thank you for your apology, which is appreciated.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 04:26 AM

"the insufferable self-righteous little lefty prig!"
What my politics are is none of your business and has nothing to do with what I say - I am not a member of any particular party - I have no political line - I haven't voted in a general election of well over a decade.
If anything, I am a humanist (with a small h) and a pacifist (with reservations).
Some time ago you bent over backwards to find my politics - no doubt to use a a smearing substitute for argument - I declined, to no avail - you have decided to use a fictionalised construction of my politics as a substitute anyway - your kind always do.
So feel free to continue your "McCarthyite personalised rant", though you need no prompting from me - your kind never do
" Fusilier Rigby, Theo Van Gogh, Ali Akbar Tabataba'i, Hitoshi Igarashi, Meir Kahane, " are all examples of Islamic extremism.
Perhaps you'd like a list of examples of Christian or Israeli, or Buddhist - or any other type of religious or nationalist extremism - and will I be allowed to attribute those examples to entire national or cultural groups.
Come on Mike - give us a break - you used to be (or at least seem to be) better than this garbage.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 05:28 AM

Depends on who shouts Lefty! And who hears it Bridge...

As to the subject. I give up.

Islamic fundamentalism is a sign of the dangers of nurturing religion. Nothing to do with Muslims. Nothing to do with any identifiable group. It is an inevitable result of perpetuating superstition in modern society.

A pox on all their houses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 05:49 AM

How would you know Mither - tory-lite!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:10 AM

Oh, come on, Jim. You might not have any formal party affiliation, but it's idle to deny that your views are far more representative of a left-inclined position than any other. I suspect that, if any other interlocutor suggested any different, you would be resentful & annoyed.

As to those other faiths you mention. Well, Judaism is specifically and explicitly non-proselytising -- a club which, far from seeking new members, makes it difficult for any who want to to get in. The founder of Christianity did indeed declare himself the way and the life and said that none came to the father but by him; but he did not then go on and say that his followers therefore had a duty to kill any who failed to recognise this, and later accretions [Crusades, Inquisitions] constituted aberrations from, rather than followers of, his teachings.

The Koran, otoh, as Aayan Hirsi Ali points out, does enjoin the duty of Jihad and of militant proselytisation. Such activities are specifically imposed by its founder's own words on all true followers of his faith. I have ref'd two previous posts of my own which spell out my specific objections to allowing that faith to gain a worldwide foothold. If you are too idle, "can't be arsed", to follow them up, that's your problem. But it doesn't render militant Islamism any less of a threat to the world, or make this law-abiding majority any less, as any Islamist will tell you, departers from the true teachings of The Prophet. Just hope your descendants will not fall victim to those who do take his teachings and his commands seriously. I shall have none, so what do I care?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:28 AM

Since when was being a dirty rotten stinking capitalist anything to do with Tory Bridge?

Only one of us two has ever voted Tory in their lives. Would the readers wish to guess which of is it was?

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:54 AM

And all v well to chuck terms like 'garbage' around; but if your "can't be arsed" isn't a perfect instance of the old "mind's made up, do not confuse with facts please" bromide, then I reckon it will do till a better one comes along.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:18 AM

Returning to the speech, how can we be sure that the UN Middle East Peace Envoy is completely wrong and there is no threat to world peace and stability specifically from militant Islam?

What reassurance would you give to the people of Nigeria say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:36 AM

Just received my copy of this week's Spectator. One sentence from its first page Portrait Of The Week feature: "Brunei delayed,'due to unavoidable circumstances', the introduction of laws imposing death by stoning of adulterers and the severing of limbs for theft". New laws, you will note; not old ones which just happen to survive. Wonder what those 'unavoidable circumstances' could have been, or how long the 'delay' will be. Not holding breath.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:42 AM

Well FW Keith, conversely How can we assume that the UN Middle East Peace Envoy is completely RIGHT?

Or for that matter, how can we be completely sure the sun will come up tomorrow?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:50 AM

No-one has suggested he was right at all Greg, but you all seemed to dismiss his message as somehow irrelevant.

How can we be sure that the UN Middle East Peace Envoy is completely wrong and there is no threat to world peace and stability specifically from militant Islam?

What reassurance would you give to the people of Nigeria say?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM

BBC 24 April 2014 Last updated at 22:38 BST

The UN estimates more than 50,000 people have fled the violence in Nigeria and crossed into neighbouring Niger.

Boko Haram's Islamist militants have intensified their violent campaign, killing over 1,500 people since the start of this year alone, according to human rights groups.

Most recently, they are suspected to be behind the mass abduction of more than 200 school girls.

Ibrahim Tidjani is a Koranic teacher, who crossed into Niger with his family and some of his pupils at the end of April last year, after his village, Manguno, was raided by Boko Haram fighters. Sixty people were killed in the attack, including his father and brother.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 09:14 AM

What Blair actually said,
"Former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair has described radical Islam as the greatest threat facing the world today."

I expect he meant to say that CofE was a close second.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11182225


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 09:35 AM

Are you sure that is what he meant to say? After all, CofE is a religion. Why would he add a religion to a statement about a terrorist philosophy? He didn't say Islam, Judaism or Pastafarianism for that matter.

TC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:33 AM

My politics is no business of yours even if your assessment is accurate
And is has no relevance to this or any discussion unless you want to take your McCarthyism to it's logical conclusion and demand an oath of allegiance to 'St Margaret' before making a contribution here.   
If my views on humanitarian issues - the basis of my contribution to these threads - are your interpretation of "being a leftie", fair enough.
I've met a number of Lefties down the years - I don't recall many of them being racist bigots, most have been humanitarians and pacifists - many of them were the Jews I talk about who were my friends when I lived in Manchester.
Despite the efforts of Mrs Pinochet, "lefties" have points of view and the right to express them, here on Mudcat and elsewhere - that is, until your lot come banging on the door one night to take those of us who disapprove to take us away, as happened in Maggie's "wonderful example to true democracy", Chile.
Maybe I should reconsider my present political apathy and go and joi something
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 10:43 AM

Mainstream Islam?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 11:19 AM

"My politics is no business of yours"
.,,.
Of course they are, Jim. They are a primary factor in the matters we are discussing; how can we do so if they are not to bed taken into account?

Who is trying to restrict whose freedom of speech around here, I should like to know?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 11:31 AM

Mind you, Jim, your arguments are getting a bit strange and scattergun. Suddenly your King Charles's Head, the late Baroness Thatcher, has put in an appearance. Now what you imagine she has to do with all this, from beyond the grave, I cannot conceive. Not working up to one of those funny old tantrums of yours, are you? You know how worried we all get for you...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 11:39 AM

And I still haven't made out quite how Senator McCarthy managed to infiltrate our discourse, either! Who else are you going to drag irrelevantly into your denunciations of me for no perceptible reason? Otto von Bismarck? Titus Oates? Snoopy and the Red Baron? Brutus & Cassius? Bill Brewer Jan Stewer Peter Gurney Peter Davie Dan'l Whiddon Harry Hawk, Lord Peter Wimsey...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:02 PM

"Of course they are, Jim. They are a primary factor in the matters we are discussing; how can we do so if they are not to bed taken into account?"
I take this to be some strange impenetrable joke - or are you seriously confirming that all discussions have to be preceded by revealing ones politics - or religion - or maybe date-of-birth?
Beats responding to the points, I suppose.
Stupid boy!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:33 PM

The Hotshots!

Took me ages to sit there and recall who sang Snoopy vs The Red Baron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 03:50 PM

Mr. Blair fails to mention that the only country ever to use nuclear weapons is the US.
Not only that, he is discounting religious radicalism in all the other sects as well.
As someone who supported the bombing of Iraq on false pretenses, he is hardly
credible as a harbinger of Muslim doom.

It must be mentioned that militant radical Christianity is a threat to the US and the world, those radicals that are now engaging in violence in the US South and West.

An attempt to accuse lefties of bias and dismiss any of their arguments because you don't agree with them is a McCarthyist tactic.

Also, we mustn't rule out the Jewish extremists such as Meyer Kahane and the Jewish Defense League, obvious radical religious terrorists.

Radical religionists, no matter what their persuasion have been responsible for wars and hatred since they are guided not by human concerns but have been brainwashed by dogma.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 05:26 PM

You "reveal your politics" with every post you post, Jim; and then get all hoity if anyone notices.

You have also voluntarily asserted your religious position iirc. Want to withdraw that info as being suddenly confidential, like your "Top Secret" politics?

We don't happen to be discussing your date of birth. But if it became an issue, I presume you would mention it, not declare vehemently that it was no-one's biznis but yours, Captain Mainwaring. You wouldn't get many prezzies that way either, would you?

What the hell is the matter with you? I really think you must have flipped at last...

~M~
dob 12 v 32


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 14 - 07:22 PM

Thanks for clarifying, Michael.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 03:23 AM

See the letter in this morning's The Times, "Pakistani justice", from the All Party Parliamentary Group for International Freedom of religion or Belief.

Let me revert, yet again, to the constant accusation, from Jim et al, that I must allow that "it was religious fanatics wot dunnit, not the Muslim peopel as a whole". I have never accused "the peopel as a whole" as being directly involved, or even approving. The point which he will not get is that it is THE FAITH itself, to which these 'peopel' subscribe, that specifically and explicitly lays on them the duty to perform these acts; and his "fanatics" are simply the ones who do as their Prophet bid. There is no other major religion whose founders even suggested such injunctions, so any few, like Westboro Baptists &c, who embrace such activities, are not obeying any thing laid down by their faiths.

But Muslims who do so are, even if those do not constitute the whole, or even the majority, of the Faith's adherents. So it is the Faith itself, and its explicit teaching, with which I take issue; not just "the peopel". It, not they, constitute(s) the threat to the world, and any who can't see it are ostriches. And they who think it unfair to point this out are foolish -- I still often recall with a chuckle Richard's taking me to task for being "more critical of one religion than others"!

Can Jim et al really not get this?

~Michael~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 03:24 AM

The politics of any individual posting to this forum can only be of any interest to those who with to use it as a diversion from adult argument, such as your good self.
I can remember no specific posting I have ever made which "reveals" my own - though I'm sure you are able to jog my memory.
Bringing my imagined political leanings up and now attempting to instigate a debate around them is a pretty clear indication of the paucity of your own arguments.
If you equate "leftie" with being appalled by human rights abuses, opposing sectarianism and race hatred and being prepared to speak out on these issues, I'll just have to take your word for it and bear it in mind when the next election is due.
It really is none of your business and if your weren't as desperate as you seem to be to divert attention from your own hypocritical and extremist outlook on life, you would know it.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 04:00 AM

Cross posted
It is not "the faith" but how that "faith" is interpreted by individuals and groups who wish to use it for their own purposes or to back up their own fanaticism.
All "faiths" are capable of being misinterpreted and misused - the Christian one being among the front runners.
Judaism in the hands of fanatics is on display every time you read about what is happening in Israel.
Buddhist fanatics are attempting to bring about holy war in Myanmar - I've always been told that Buddhism is synonymous with 'Peace'.
One of the features of Muslim life in Britain is its passive and law-abiding nature - a fact you Islamophobe volcano-squatters have continued to deliberately ignore.
Are you seriously suggesting that this is because all British Muslims have abandoned their "faith"?
We know that the handful of Muslim criminals involved in underage sex have abandoned their "faith" , which forbids them having sex outside marriage.
If it was a question of "faith", Britain, with its million to a million and a half Muslim population would have long ago bee plunged into religious warfare and its streets would have long bee "rivers of blood" as Eunuch predicted all those years ago.
You appear more and more like him every time you put finger to keyboard.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 04:08 AM

Mither: -

(a) Wrong Fred
(b) The Royal Guardsmen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 06:28 AM

I've made my point and see no purpose in repetition.

Adieu, thread,

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 10:48 AM

All major religions have built into them misogyny, hatred or strong condemnation of other religions, intolerance to homosexuality/lesbianism. While not specifically part of this discussion, I wonder why these things are so seldom mentioned?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 11:33 AM

Because it is bollocks?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 12:12 PM

Because it is bollocks? <>/I>

Nope. Try again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 12:24 PM

If you accuse my church and my religion of any of those things then you talk bollocks, but that has been discussed endlessly on countless threads and I will not discuss it with you on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 12:39 PM

If you accuse my church and my religion of any of those things then you talk bollocks

Nope. Try again. This time with sentience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 01:02 PM

"Is the UN Envoy an Islamophobe in your opinion?
(Just asking. Not arguing)"

No! Not REALLY?

He WAS the one who knew in 2002 that Bush was manipulating the evidence and still went with him into two wars in Muslim countries.

But he he isn't an Islamophobe.............MUCH!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Lighter
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 01:05 PM

> it is THE FAITH itself, to which these 'peopel' subscribe, that specifically and explicitly lays on them the duty to perform these acts.

Actually it's only a particular radical interpretation of the faith - read into it by the zealots themselves - that lays on the "duty" to commit acts of terror.

If not, they wouldn't be a small minority among overwhelmingly law-abiding Muslim population.

As we all know, the bible contains passages that, ripped from context, zealously emphasized, or absurdly overinterpreted, suggest that homosexuals must be stoned to death, that slavery is fine, and that conversion by the sword is A-OK. ("I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.")


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 14 - 07:44 PM

Does your church approve of gay marriage, Keith, or just gay "marriage"? Women bishops??


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 01:58 AM

And have a look too at Janice Turner's op-ed in Saturday's Times: just some unisdputed facts about actions of Islamic governments in Nigeria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, & jiggery-pokery in Birmingham schools. Here are just two sentences from many one might have pull-quoted:-

--At a mixed school in southern Afghanistan, two teachers were executed for refusing to stop educating girls. Their pupils were forced to watch--

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:43 AM

"At a mixed school in southern Afghanistan, two teachers were executed for refusing to stop educating girls"

Christianity ?

Buddhism ?

Judaism ?

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:46 AM

And I think it a point worth making, in response to all these "It's only a small minority" pleas, that several of the Sharia states -- N Nigeria, Pakistan, parts of Malaysia, Syria -- are democracies; they hold elections, and these administrations have been elected by a majority vote. NB that when Israel did hand back the Gaza area [to which I agree they had no legitimate claim] to Palestinian Arab control, the population expressed their gratitude by overwhelmingly electing a Hamas government at the first opportunity; leaving Israel with a hostile enclave at its heart, which proceeded to bombard kibbutzim within range with ballistic missiles. I regret that I don't find this "only a minority" argument an overwhelminglyly convincing one.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:46 AM

My church approves of gays Steve, and we have gay priests and bishops and many, many gay members.
It just has a millenia old definition of marriage that it is not ready to change yet.

We have had female priests for years and bishops soon.
Females form more than half our congregations and we run our Church how we want to.
Outsiders are entitled to their opinion of course, but what has it to do with you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:49 AM

millennia


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:14 AM

"It's only a small minority"
Which is not the point
The point is that you choose to target Muslims living in Britain and depict them as a threat - the Enemy Within, as did Eunuch Powell before you
Part of Muslim teaching is that, if Muslims live in non-Muslim countries, they should respect national beliefs and adhere to national laws – which exactly describes the behaviour of British Muslims.                     Those you and your 'volcano-squatting (surely a candidate for the next Olympics) friends have chosen to denigrate.
Sharia Law is open to misinterpretation and abuse, as are any aspects of any religion – it has become the bigot's Sword of Damoclese..
Sharia Law

"My church approves of gays Steve"
C of E toleration of gays
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 09:04 AM

Jim, your link to sharia law is screwed up. I think that is what you meant to post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:34 AM

The problem is that the majority of Muslims are just like you and I as are the majority of Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and the plethora of other religions that exist. But there are some who commit crimes in the name of their religion, whatever it is. But there is a prevalence of crimes being committed in the name of Islam at present and those crimes are the ones that seem to do most harm to everyone. I do not know if Michael is right about the teachings of that religion being any different from the teachings of other religions. I have never read the Koran and I have no intention of doing so. I am not saying that Jim is right either and all is sweetness and light in the Muslim community as a whole. There is a discrepancy between actuality and perception that needs to be addressed. I am sure that when another bogey man comes along the anti - and pro - Islamist factions will fade away.

How about we make one now? I think that Martians are to blame for all the worlds ills. Them green bastards with their secret brain rays, infiltrating every aspect of life make my blood boil. I think I will write a stiff latter to the Daily Mail. :-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 11:49 AM

"I am not saying that Jim is right either and all is sweetness and light in the Muslim community as a whole."
I'm not Dave - I have no time for any religion, and I run a mile at the idea of any to them having political influence.
I do say that those who have moved to Britain have fitted in and are law abiding citizens.
They have been recognised as such and have been cited as being the most ready, of all British immigrants, to embrace British laws.
I asked what the alternatives Mike et al were proposing concerning immigrants - forcible or 'voluntary' repatriation - ghettoisation - I raised a few hackles with the suggestion of tattooed numbers on their arms - can't see why - indicting an entire population for the actions of a few leads to the same thing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 01:54 PM

indicting an entire population for the actions of a few leads to the same thing

And yet, Jim on another thread you indicted 'the good people of Lewes' for the actions of a few. I did not answer on that thread because it had nothing to do with it but maybe this is the place to discuss how you differentiate between the two.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:16 PM

"those who have moved to Britain have fitted in and are law abiding citizens."
,..,
Many indeed. Probably most -- but majorities can be swayed when the climate moves in their instinctually conditioned direction, remember. And those who take the teachings of their prophet seriously, proselytise, convert, & come up with such results as the British-born converts who killed Mr Rigby, can hardly be held to conform to the above description. Yes, I know they are a small minority. But it doesn't take many to make an impact ~~ it took 4 [or was it 6?] to knock the WTC down. And when these few are driven by the perverse teachings of and injunctions of this particular faith's version of holy writ, the impacts are going to be considerable. I am mocked for mentioning a volcano on which I think we sit. It will not, most likely, erupt in the few years I have left. But those who deny its very existence, or even the very possibility of such an existence, are, I repeat, IMO living in a fool's paradise; and I hope it will not be themselves, if young enough, or their immediate, or even a generation or two off, descendants [of whom I shall have none so I should coco], who will be caught in the eruption.

OK; so sneer. Like I should care.

You'll learn...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:25 PM

In Canada, we have more than one million Muslims. They work in all branches of society.
Only one that has been in the news has radical beliefs, and I believe that he is up for deportation.

Here in Calgary (metro population 1.2 million), we have a Muslim mayor, Naheed Nenshi, who has been re-elected recently, with little opposition.
He is a graduate of the school of government at Harvard University, and before becoming mayor, was a professor of business at a local college.
He is typical of Muslims here, many in the professional or technical fields. Some of the women work in home care, others in banks, etc.

Unfortunately, Muslims in Canada face discrimination. There is high unemployment (especially Quebec) among young Muslims, even those qualified with university degrees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:34 PM

Blair was talking about Islamism, which has thousands of adherents in Britain but globally is a movement dedicated to the overthrow of democracy and the imposition of Islamic rule under the Sharia by force and terror.
It is killing people now in numerous countries.
Its only goal is to bring the whole world to Islam by any means.

I have met many Muslims but not yet one of those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 02:37 PM

I might add that in Canada many university-educated Muslims are driving taxis, or work at jobs below their education levels, because of discrimination.
Home care for the elderly and infirm, low-paid although the work is hard and requires driving to several patients a day to give care, employs mostly African immigrants.
In Calgary, many of the home care workers are from the horn of Africa.
Discrimination extends to Christians with dark skin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 03:13 PM

"And yet, Jim on another thread you indicted 'the good people of Lewes' for the actions of a few."
I indicted those who watched it happen without doing anything about it - those who added their own happenn'orth to the proceedings - the organisers of that event and the police who could have, but didn't prosecute bcause what happened wasn't serious enough.
I could have added, those who carried an effigy of the news reporter who gave Firle a bad press, in the Lewes parade the following year.
Not forgetting the Mudcatter who suggested that there was a "reason" for what happened - there can never be a "reason" for such behaviour - not given the situation of Travellers in these islands.
I go along with Fred's description of the sectarian behaviour that goes on down there - we have similar demonstrations coming up in the (British Province of) Ireland shortly - just when we thought it was going to be safe to get back into the water.
I don't blame the people of Lewes, Sussex, or the South of England - I blame the fundamentalists - just as I do the Islamic fundamentalists.
"but majorities can be swayed when the climate moves in their instinctually"
Then you have to give a reason why such a thing might happen giving the present situation - and you have to give an opinion on what should happen instead of your "nuffin to do with me guv" stance.
We know what is likely to happen if Farrago and his (now established) 'Narsty Nazis' have their way.
Lovely cartoon in the Sunday Times this morning showing a B.N.P. member with a begging bowl with a note saying "Put out of a job by Ukip".
You are a middle-class version of Alf Garnett Mike; I suppose its too late in life for you to hunt out the sandwich board the old feller in Oxford Street used to carry saying "The End of the world is nigh".
I get more waves of hate from you and yours than I ever did from my Muslim, black and Irish neighbours all rolled into one
A bit of a disgrace really
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:01 PM

Jim, you have just said, amongst other things,

I indicted those who watched it happen without doing anything about it

and

I don't blame the people of Lewes

But your post on the thread concerned was

it isn't too long ago that the good people of Lewes were burning a caravan full of 'Pikeys' at their annual bonfire festival.

It is there for you to refresh your memory if you like. Re: 'Bacup Nuters and Racism' From: Jim Carroll Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:03 AM.

Now, nowhere in that statement do you only indict the people who watched it happen and did nothing. You did indict 'the good people of Lewes' as a whole.

I fully understand if it was a mistake to tar those good people with the same brush and, if so, you should say what you said is not what you meant. The statement you made was a typical Daily Mail style headline. You cannot say, on the one hand, that we can only blame the extremists, which I fully agree with, and then go on to say 'the good people of Lewes were burning a caravan full of pikeys.'

I am not trying to argue just for the sake of it here either. I am just saying that you cannot say one thing and do another without people picking up on it.

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:13 PM

But it doesn't take many to make an impact ~~ it took 4 [or was it 6?] to knock the WTC down.

And it took just two (wanna clue: their surnames both begin with B...) to misuse this event, to lie to us all, to slaughter or maim a million Iraqis and tens of thousands of Afghanis, and to make orphans of a million more and impoverish the lives of tens of millions more and to make those tens of millions live for over a decade, a decade still without end, in fear and insecurity. Amazing, Michael, how western imperialism can cleanse the mind of reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 04:36 PM

Religions are as good or as bad as the people in charge of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:51 PM

Islamism

That sumthin' like Darwinism, Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 05:53 PM

No Greg.
Only a complete fuckwit would ask that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:04 PM

"and you have to give an opinion on what should happen instead of your "nuffin to do with me guv" stance."
.,,.
I wish I knew what should happen; what could practically be done about it. Cheap sneers about how I must want numbers tattooed on arms are merely provocative, not any sort of argument. But we are, I repeat, living over a volcano brought in by a Trojan Horse (you must admit a fine mixed metaphor, whatever else!). And what is to be done about this pit we have dug for ourselves, (third item for the mixture!) in practical terms, I simply do not know. The fact is that one can not start from anywhere except where one is. As usual, old Will has the best words:

O, Time, thou must unravel this, not I;
It is too hard a knot for me to untie.
(Twelfth NightII.2.39-40)

I just wish to god I could think of something to be done about it.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:12 PM

Define "Islamism" Keith - off the top of your head, no looking it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:23 PM

Quite sidestep, I think, from "Islam" to "Islamism" or "Islamist".

If you fancy doing some useful research, Keith, try figuring out who funds Boko Haram (and the helicopter drops of food and fuel into its camps), and why Nigerian military action against its known encampments seems - er - a bit hard to detect, and why the Nigerian government is doing sweet Fanny Adams about rescuing a bit over 200 schoolgirls (observant Islamic schoolgirls) who have been kidnapped by Boko Haram.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Apr 14 - 06:40 PM

Re cracks about "middle-class Alf Garnetts". Alf Garnett was a racist. I am not a racist, and do not welcome into our midst a strong demographic who manifestly are.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 09:30 AM

Richard, the army dare not venture into parts of the North.
Why not explain what you mean about Boko Haram?

Greg, I explained to meaning to Musket on the persecution thread, and I have defined it here too.
Look it up here or elsewhere if you are confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:12 AM

"I am not a racist,"
As good as - as you say, Islam is not a race - if it were you would be a "send 'em all back where they cone from" (only cure for your particular phobia, as far as I can see) out-and-our racist.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:19 AM

Look it ["Islamism"] up here or elsewhere if you are confused.

I'm not the one that's confused, FW Keith, if your posted "definition"[sic] is any indication.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

I am so sorry Greg.
Do please correct it for me, and share you superior wisdom with a lesser creature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 02:59 PM

Do please correct it for me, and share you superior wisdom...

To what end, Keith? You're not saying that facts would change your mind, are you? By everything you've ever posted on this forum such is demonstrably NOT the case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:13 PM

Every religion has its radical elements predicated on violence.

Islam in its inception supported science (Al Hazen).

At one point in history, Islam was enlightened, they were scholars creating algebra,
scientists, budding astro-phyicists and leaders of an open society. Today, they've been taken over by dogmatic and violent fundamentalists.   

Darwin never founded a religion but based his findings on Evolution through empirical science, leading the way to understanding modern medicine which has saved countless lives.

Darwin's ideas have been modified over the years as scientists discover carbon dating, dendrology to determine the beginnings of earth, animal behavior, and have lead to the discovery of DNA. Darwin's breakthrough enabled us to live better lives through understanding human chemistry and biology.

Blair converted to Catholicism which may in his case influenced his dislike of Islamic fundamentalists, aside from the anti-human propensities. Blair, as a spokesperson for
England has to acknowledge that GB too had its share of fundamentalists that wreaked havoc on the rest of the world, notably in India.

One of the by-products of religion is that it encourages discrimination and fundamentalism
in its adherents against outsiders, women, and non-believers.

For every WT destruction there exists another Oklahoma bombing.

A critical view of religion needs to be taken to show how it breeds violence and most wars.

Instead of being afraid of the violence of religion, it would serve better to understand the psychological implications of this anti-social behavior and reveal it to the public.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:30 PM

Oh dear Greg.
How humiliating for you.
You asked me for a definition when I have already given two.
Who but what you call a "fuckwit" would do that!

You deride my descriptions as those of a fuckwit, but you can not actually identify any innaccuracy, and you can not actually provide a better one.

Only a complete "fuckwit" would be that pathetically inadequate Greg.

What a useful contribution you do make Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 04:14 PM

but you can not actually identify any innaccuracy, and you can not actually provide a better one.

Actually, I CAN & quite easily. But, per 28 Apr 14 - 02:59 PM above, I can't be arsed, since it would have no effect on you in any way shape or form.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 05:20 PM

So you could if you wanted to, but you won't.
Really?
Pathetic Greg.
Laughable.
Ha ha.
All you are good for is calling rude names.

Like "FUCKWIT!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 05:26 PM

Stringsinger,
Every religion has its radical elements predicated on violence.

I am not sure that is true, but I am sure that there is only one movement dedicated to imposing a religious government on everyone in the world by terror and violence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 05:57 PM

I tried to make a link but I haven't got the time.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims-carried-out-more-than-90-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619

I think too many people here are wrapped up in their beliefs and ideologies. The link provides a few facts which I'm sure will be cherry-picked to support various arguments. However, there they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 06:43 PM

Now, there ya go again, Guest - introducing them pesky facts. FW Keith ain't gonna ba happy with you...


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 08:58 PM

I am sure that there is only one movement

You may be SURE, FW, but you are - as usual - WRONG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 11:48 PM

There is, however, [how often must I say it?] only one who can point to justification, and indeed obligation, in its holy writings for such an intention.

If you think otherwise (apart from Jesus's "not peace but a sword", which needs to be taking in conjunction with the then current fact of the Roman occupation) then please point it out.

Meanwhile, the Suras enjoining the duty of Jihad and/or militant proselytisation are legion. "The word jihad appears in 23 Quranic verses...Jihad appears 41 times in the Quran and frequently in the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of God"...Jihad is an important religious duty for Muslims" - Wikipedia

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 01:57 AM

Greg, after attacking my description of Islamism, you prove to be unable to find any fault with it and unable to come up with a better one.
What does that make you Greg.

Now you say I am wrong that there is only one movement dedicated to imposing a religious government on everyone in the world by terror and violence.

So Greg, identify another one.

Confident prediction-you have made a fool of yourself yet again.

All you are any good at is calling people ugly names.
Like "Fuckwit" Greg.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 02:13 AM

I am given to understand that the modern usage of "jihad" refers to the internal struggle for self-improvement, not violence against non-muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 03:13 AM

"I am given to understand that the modern usage of "jihad" refers to the internal struggle for self-improvement, not violence against non-muslims."
Not so modern Richard - the term is debatable - some writers compare it with 'Crusade'.
Fundamentalists take it as a justification of violent action, just as fundamentalist Christians have used Christian scriptures (plenty of them if you care to look) to justify violence.
Try Googling "Peaceful Jihad" - makes for fascinating reading.
It's one of those buzz words for bigots.
There's a fascinating debate going on at the moment in the letter pages of The Irish Times regarding the Christian view of Capital Punishment.
I know that at least one contributor here is a keen advocate of the good ol' practice and would happily adapt whatever his holy book says to fit it in to his outlook on humanity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 03:56 AM

I doubt very much that there is any such person here Jim.
Will you name this person?
Confident prediction-no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 04:09 AM

Guest#
USA is not the world.
No really!
Many countries are fighting an Islamist insurgencies and many more are in fear of one.
USA is not.

Given that, I estimate that 98% of deaths due to terrorism in USA in 21C are down to Islamists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 04:31 AM

No need Keith - its all on record - as you well know
Now go and talk to someone else - you have no place in my thoughts - and few others' - I would guess.
Your career as a troll is a thing of the past
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:04 AM

So you meant me.
I have been opposed to capital punishment my whole adult life, so nothing is "on record" and you have made the whole thing up.

What does it say about you that you cannot make a case without lying Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:15 AM

"So you meant me."
Who said that?
Your principles - like Easter - are a moveable feast anyway - depending on what suits at the time.
Are you sure it's not just a guilty concience that makes you think it was you I was referring to.
Go away - you nasty little man
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:47 AM

You said I well know it is on record.
I don't.
You said it is a contributor with a holy book.
So that is me, Eliza, Joe, Jack or Pete.
Why not just name them Jim?
Answer, because it is all your made up shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 07:48 AM

Paranoia rules OK
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 10:10 AM

Greetings from a WiFi available in a cafe. (If Scotland becomes independent will the little fat buffoon spend some of the oil billions he reckons he will have on getting a phone signal in Fife?)

Arguing the message differences in the bible and Q'ran just shows the level of debate in this rather repugnant thread.

Mind you, nice to pop in and have a good laugh at Keith's philosophy.

TC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 11:51 AM

The major deaths in the U.S. are not from Islamist extremists but our own gun toting
society, gun violence being an epidemic. Much of the terrorism in the US comes from
terrorist organizations such as pseudo-militias, many of which are Tea Party inspired.

Islamic terrorism is not a major problem in the US despite the militarization of the police force and unwarranted data mining of fearful politicians and government functionaries such as James Clapper.

Jim is right about paranoia which put us into the cold war, Iraq, Afghanistan and keeps our military sending drones into Pakistan and Yemen which enable Al Quaeda to gain more
recruits and create a bogey-man.

Drones have not stopped Al Quaeda or terrorism in other countries, why?, because drones are a form of terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 05:19 PM

Where is that "like" button?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 29 Apr 14 - 06:18 PM

The best site I have yet read concerning muslims and terrorist acts.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_waronterror78.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:10 AM

This is not about USA, but you have lost about 3500 people to Islamists since 2000.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:17 AM

Jim.
one contributor here is a keen advocate of the good ol' practice (capital punishment) and would happily adapt whatever his holy book says to fit it in to his outlook on humanity

Who is this nasty person??
You say I "know well" his record, but I have no idea!
I am certain you have made it all up.

If there is such a person, name them.
If there is not, admit it.

It is not fair to allow suspicion to fall on the very few people of faith who contribute here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:39 AM

"Who is this nasty person??"
Mind your own business and stop trying to provoke an argument
You have shown better than any that self-proclaimed Christians are more than happy to ignore the teachings of their beliefs when it suits them to do so, which is the whole point of this debate - I've never met a 'Christian' who expresses your inhuman views.
There is no "suspicion" - it is a fact of all religions
No more 'black-holes' - that's what you were warned.
Guest#'s pie chart makes fascinating reading and Stringsinger says all that needs to be said about U.S. terrorism.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:01 AM

Sorry, Jim. This is not a post intending to be quarrelsome about the main issue -- we both know where we differ as to that. But your injunction to Keith to "mind his own business" as to whom you referred to in the aggressive post he quoted is thoroughly misplaced. It IS his business; it is all our "business" to know whom you meant by such a scurrilous accusation. Anything posted on this forum is, indeed, the "business" of any member of it; so I can't imagine quite what you thought you meant by that foolish rejoinder. So put up or shut up -- or somebody's Fairy Godmother might turn some nasty little toad into something even nastier!

☤~M~☤


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:03 AM

What is posted here is all our business.
You posted an accusation, in the most disparaging terms, against a "holy book" person.

As you acknowledge it can not be me as I have opposed capital punishment all my life.

That only leaves Eliza, Joe, Jack and Pete.

It is not me provoking an argument, it is you making accusations that are lies.

Name the person or withdraw the lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:11 AM

In fact, Jim, you are getting much too prone to telling people to "mind their own business" -- first it was your politics which were nobody's business [what a daft thing to assert on a political thread!]; now it's whom you are making scurrilous accusations against which are nobody's business but J Carroll's.

As I said above, Jim, I think you are on the point of losing it. Take care, please, for crying out loud. We could ill spare you, even just as a troublesome, provocative catalyst adding zest to the threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:21 AM

"So put up or shut up "
No I won't Mike - I have no intention of dredging up all the discussions on Capital punishment that have taken place on this forum, in which contributors to this thread (not just the four named) have participated in, in order to present you and Keith with a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card from your Islamophobia.
You want me to qualify my statement - then how about responding to those you have studiously ignored.
My general point remains - all religions contain teachings which are bypassed out of convenience or to suit personal secular situations - you might start with "Thou shalt not kill".   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:28 AM

I have no intention of dredging up all the discussions on Capital punishment

But you did do exactly that Jim!
Why will you not name the "one contributor here is a keen advocate of the good ol' practice (capital punishment) and would happily adapt whatever his holy book says to fit it in to his outlook on humanity"????


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 04:54 AM

You have my answer Keith - no more black holes - not with you - not with anybody.
My remark stands and my opinion on religious hypocrisy stands - make of it what you will
You, of all people, with your "Muppets" and "swine" and "lefties" and "the pack", have left yourself no high ground to stand on when it comes to swingeing accusations - as have I said many times, piss of and stop attempting to create diversions
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:06 AM

I find it cowardly to make hints and allegations to smear someone and then backpedal by not naming them. Not that it is any of my business...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:12 AM

Never mind our "Islamophobia", as you call our dislike of some sections of that faith's murderous ways: you are a making a great fool of yourself spreading so much Jimophobia. You really seem to be making yourself less than Flavour Of The Mudcat Month with your hints & innuendos, followed by your pusillanimous withdrawals when challenged. If they are none of our business, then why did you post these allegations. Anything posted on this forum becomes the business of it members. If you don't want to be taken up on it, then don't post it, you silly fellow.

Best

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:35 AM

Muppets" and "swine" and "lefties" and "the pack"

I call my grandchildren "muppets" when they are silly.
It is an endearment.
"Pack" is a metaphor for acting together in a group like wolves do.
"Leftie" is neutral and descriptive. I am "centre/rightie."
"Swine" I would never say.
You made that one up Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:54 AM

" as you call our dislike of some sections of that faith's murderous ways"
Your attack is on Muslims Mike - not extremists.
"If they are none of our business, then why did you post these allegations"
As a near-to-home example of religious hypocrisy - for no other reason.
Keith's list is a pretty fair example of his hypocrisy
It is not necesary for me to identify the individual concerned to make the general point - perhaps you'd like to dispute that point rather than diverting from it?
You have as much right to know who it is as you have of knowing the details of my politics - precisely none.
Keith really should report the fake poster who keeps posting statements like arguing with us is "casting pearls before swine" - this sort of thing has happened far too much to him - it makes him look like an arrogant megalomaniac.
Great to know he regards everybody else on this forum with "endearment"
Hypocritical moron.
"Not that it is any of my business."
'Tisn't Dave - though it happens constantly on this forum
Jim the Muppet


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:55 AM

" I am "centre/rightie.""
Centre!!!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:31 AM

"Not that it is any of my business."
'Tisn't Dave - though it happens constantly on this forum


I was not referring to you, Jim, I was referring to an anonymous person who I do not need to name because everyone knows who it is. Why are you responding to something that is none of your business? Do you just argue for the sake of it?

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:38 AM

Sultan of Brunei launches new Islamic penal code that will eventually include stoning, amputation and flogging as punishments.

AlJazeera


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:32 AM

Dave
Is you have chosen to choose sides in all this- I seem to remember your reluctance in refusing to qualify your accusations of my setting oner member against the other - or do I have the wrong feller
We all equal in choosing what we qualify and what we don't, but in the opinion of your particular "pack" (see Keith's "metaphor") - someare more equal than others
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:53 AM

The only side I ever chose, Jim, is reason. I agree that there is no need to tar the whole of Islam or anyone else with the same brush. I disagree with your assertion that you did not besmirch the 'good people of Lewes' with your wild accusations elsewhere. I agree that other religions may be as bad. I disagree that these are causing the same amount of damage as Islamism is at present. I like your sense of right and wrong but do not like the underhand tactics you have chosen to fight your battle. I can see that I am about to become 'the enemy' and therefore incapable of reason so I fully expect the full force of your wrath soon. No problem. I can ignore it. Maybe in the same way that you promised not to get involved in these arguments again. And I do hope that your current inability to see how your arguments seem to be self-defeating is as a result of the rage you obviously feel rather than something more serious.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:56 AM

Mind you, nice to pop in and have a good laugh at Keith's philosophy.
Gee TC.
You can only be referring to my opposition to capital punishment.
I take it you are for it.
Right TC?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 09:09 AM

I could never live in a terror state. Notwithstanding that through business I have right of residency in one.

The appalling botched execution in Oklahoma is in sharp relief to concerns that other countries may put sharia law (conciliation by elders) into effect.

A parliamentary debate is being staged (that won't go ahead, it's just to make a point) that we should break diplomatic relations with The USA till they learn to stop terrorising their own citizens. Torture, inhumane killing...   There are blokes in Pakistan who don't understand why the civilised EU countries put up with them whilst berating Russia for being odious.

Still. God bless America. / Allah Akbar. What's the fucking difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM

I'd surely want to have my life controlled by people who are stuck in time thirteen centuries ago. I think these may be the prototype fundamentalists of whom we should be wary.

These types of Muslim are no one's friends.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 10:20 AM

I read an article last weekend that said that a VAST majority of violent religious attacks in the US are carried out by Christians attacking Jews. Why aren't we having a thread about radical Christian terrorism?

There were a few thousand people killed in the WTC attacks. The response was to kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan - almost none of whom had anything to do with terrorism. Many of our leaders described these wars in religious terms.

Since the WTC attacks, the Dept of Homeland Security has spent hundreds of billions of dollars protecting us from terrorists. During that time 600,000 Americans have been killed by other Americans with guns. By the usual definition, the NRA is a terrorist organization. So are the governments of the UK and the US. We are the rogue nations.

It is easy to say that the governments of Muslim countries are bad because they kill their own citizens over religious beliefs. The government of the United States has an ever-increasing list of gun laws that make it easier and easier to kill other Americans. Punitive religion-based laws abound here. By the same arguments used against Muslim countries, we have a violent Christian regime in place. It is dedicated to world domination and uses mass killing to achieve its goals.

The United States claims to want peace in the world and is the world's largest manufacturer and seller of weapons of war. We are, by exact definition, war mongers. The UK as well.

Wouldn't it be nice if we stopped worrying about which religion violent, gun-toting people belong to and start worrying more about the fact that they are gun-toting and violent?

John P

P.S. This thread would be a good bit more interesting if MtheGM, Keith of Hertford and Jim Carrol, and the few others who engage with them, would stop talking about each other. Please, please, please stick to the discussion and leave your insults ad name calling out of it. The most effective response to being attacked is no response at all. It takes two to tango. Every time you type a post, please pause before sending it to see if your words are about the subject at hand or if they contain insults directed at another person in the discussion. I don't know if any of you are saying anything pertinent, since you've ensured that I scroll past your posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 10:28 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM

So, tell us GUEST, if the US and UK are the real terrorist organizations why is it that millions of refugees from Islamic countries are seeking refuge in theses countries and not the other way around. Curious minds would like to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: pdq
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 10:31 AM

The subject of this thread is the rise of Radical Islam.

Here is a part of the text that GUEST.# linked to...


"While many Muslim organizations in the West expend considerable effort portraying themselves as victims of Western "Islamophobia", very little is said by those groups about the fact that many of the countless victims of Islamic terrorism are Muslims themselves. There are certainly no public protests by organizations like CAIR in recognition of those Muslims murdered and maimed by Muslims, though they are quick to cite the number of civilians accidentally killed by US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan (though Reinsford notes that while 225 Iraqis were killed in collateral damage incidents in 2006, there were 16,791 Iraqi civilians killed by Islamic terrorists that same year).

Reinsford says that the skewed perspective of ignoring the toll Islamic terrorism takes on Muslims stems from a failure by Muslim leaders to recognize the glaring problems that are resident in the heart of their own community:

Yes, most of the victims of Islamic terror are Muslim, yet there is very little outrage on the part of the Islamic world to terror, relative to, say, a Muhammad cartoon or an "insult to Islam" by a public figure. What does this tell us about the priorities of Islam? In fact, sympathies for terrorists run much higher than many people realize. Even those that do truly disagree with violence (and there are many) somehow avoid taking any sort of responsibility for ending it by convincing themselves that it has nothing to do with Islam. Obviously it has everything to do with Islam, and the unwillingness on the part of Muslims in the West to provide moral leadership against Islamic extremism will ensure that the terror continues for a long time."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 10:51 AM

"The only side I ever chose, Jim, is reason."
"And Brutus is a reasonable man" as Shakespeare nearly said.
You would say that, wouldn't you.
I don't consider it "reasonable" to make direct, specified and named accusation of playing one member against another and then refusing to back it up with examples - but there again - I'm only one of the "Muppets, "swine", "liars"..... and certainly have no claim to being "infallible" or "always right" - I leave all that to the upper echelons.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

Explicatory drift:

I am the one who occasionally uses the word 'swine', for the particular reason that I think this forum greatly spoilt by much of the unrestrained obscenity of many posts; so I avoid the likes of "cunt" & "fuck" and "fucking", my equivalents of which are generally such as "scoundrel" or "villain"; "damn"; "bloody". "Swine" is about the ultimate epithet I will permit myself when really driven to anger. I would urge that, compared to the generality of what appears here, Jim is being rather disingenuously prim & pernickety in denouncing it as so very unacceptable.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:04 AM

I don't consider it "reasonable" to make direct, specified and named accusation of playing one member against another and then refusing to back it up with examples

Is this an accusation against me, Jim? If so, for heaven sakes, say so. Why do you insist on disguising everything to the extent that people do not actually know what you are referring to? And also, if so, please provide, as per your instructions, examples of the same.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM

"Is this an accusation against me, Jim?"
I thought it was you with whom I had the altercation recently when I was accused of setting one member against another - if it wasn't, I apologise unreservedly.
Mike
Unlike you - I have no reservations on the used of 'bad language' - whatever that means
I do dislike the term "c***" because of its sexist connotations, but apart from that, my only reservation is the over-use of such language, not because it offends me, but I believe overuse neutralises it
Being disingenuous is on your side here - I'v known you to use the words you claim to object to n occasion - I was somewhat taken aback at being called a "c***" by you during one of your hissy-fits.
My objection to Keith's epithets were in his arrogant dismissals of the opinions of all those who disagree (usually everybody) with him using those terms - not the terms themselves.
I seldom use "bad language" in anger to anybody on this forum, other than to Keith, whose stupid arrogance make our fucking cat swear.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:27 PM

I have no recollection of such an altercation, Jim, so apology accepted. I am still puzzled by your posts and have no idea who or what you are referring to times. I think everyone would be happier if communications were clearer and understood by all.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 12:28 PM

...and do you not think it would be wiser to get your facts straight before flinging accusations around?

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:22 PM

Can you place the occasion, Jim? In my first year on the forum, 2009-10, I succumbed to the prevailing customs, & used such terms. If I ever called you a cunt, it must have been way back then; because I have, I asseverate, not used such language here since. Like you, not for any moral motive, but because, like you, I feel that overuse of such terms robs them of any effect, and drags down the whole atmosphere of the forum. It is all too redolent of my acutely boring National Service all those years ago. But, unless you can find a specific context any time within, say, the past 3-4 years, then I feel you may be confusing me with someone else. I just have not used such terminology on this forum within that time-frame, I am confident.

If you do find I have lapsed to that extent, then I shall of course immediately apologise.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 02:33 PM

Hey TC,
Mind you, nice to pop in and have a good laugh at Keith's philosophy

We agree about capital punishment, so what views of mine made you laugh.
That is the only view I have expressed here.
Perhaps you were just being a TC TC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM

"Can you place the occasion, Jim?"
I can't Mike - I can only remember that it came around the time you called someone else a Jackanapes - after which, I was willing to forgive you anything (balmy days!)
There really is no need to apologise - we all lose our rag on occasion -
and I have to say it surprised me at the time.
It's just one of those words I find difficult to cope with.
The rest, I have no problem with - as I said, I'm a great fan of 'The Merry Muses' and Wilmott's poetry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM

Sorry - missed a bit
"and do you not think it would be wiser to get your facts straight before flinging accusations around"
I'm pleases you accepted my apology, though I would have preferred it with a little more grace - these arguments are unpleasant enough without adding to it by trying to score points
It was a genuine mistake and I would have preferred a genuine acceptance of my apology - to some people here, apologising is "grovelling".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:33 PM

It was a genuine acceptance, Jim. Sorry if you got the impression it was ungracious. The tagged on bit was purely by way of friendly advice and I am puzzled as to why you thought I was point scoring. I try to speak plainly on the internet so as not to be misunderstood. That often means using the fewest amount of words that I can get away with. If it seems terse or unfriendly that is unintentional.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 03:39 PM

Hey Bobad!

I'll tell you why you can't understand how "millions" are trying to get into The UK and US from Islamic countries.

It's because they aren't.

Go and ask Keith what TC means then wear your badge with pride.


Keith. What are you talking about? TC?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:14 PM

I can't make it any plainer TC.
You said my "philosophy" made you laugh.
What philosophy TC?
My only expressed view here was on capital punishment.
I oppose it.
You are being more of a TC than usual TC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:18 PM

I am going to start referring to people as UD and not let them know what it means.

Bunch of UDs

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:32 PM

According to Wiki,
" In 2005, more people from Islamic countries became legal permanent United States residents — nearly 96,000 — than in any year in the previous two decades.[12][13] In 2009, more than 115,000 Muslims became legal residents of the United States.[14]"

According to Huffington Post,
"Figures from the 2011 census show that the Muslim population in the UK has substantially risen between 2001 and 2011 from 1.5 million to almost 3 million. This now takes the proportion of Muslims from 2% of the population to 5%. In some towns, Muslims make up almost 50% of the population, and in large cities like London and Manchester they make up around 14% of the population."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:45 PM

I know, Keith. Still not saying what UD is though. It's a secret.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 05:56 PM

So, tell us GUEST, if the US and UK are the real terrorist organizations why is it that millions of refugees from Islamic countries are seeking refuge in theses countries and not the other way around. Curious minds would like to know.

And curious minds here would like to know why you have such a curious mind. In your case, a peculiar mind. A mind that encompasses mythology as fact. Is pete your uncle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:25 PM

Pete's his dad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 06:27 PM

Thought so. Two cheeks of the same arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 07:25 PM

"unwillingness on the part of Muslims in the West to provide moral leadership against Islamic extremism will ensure that the terror continues for a long time.""

Might this be because there are egregious examples of terrorism being exercised in what you refer to as "the West"? What do you think that the Muslim community thinks about drone warfare in Pakistan and Yemen? Or the destruction of Iraq?

As I see it, there is an unwillingness to provide moral leadership against Christian and Jewish extremism among those who practice those "faiths".

I don't condone Muslim terrorism or anyone else's but Islam doesn't have a corner on that market.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:12 PM

unwillingness on the part of Muslims in the West to provide moral leadership against Islamic extremism

PeeDee, I'm sure they'll tackle it long before the "Christians"[sic]in the west provide moral leadership against fundagelical lunatics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 14 - 08:28 PM

Yep. Just made a saint of a pope who did sod all about rampant child abuse on his watch. You won't catch me in heaven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 04:09 AM

What do you think that the Muslim community thinks about drone warfare in Pakistan and Yemen?

If they are thinking people, they will know that Islamists are slaughtering Muslims on a scale that makes anything and everything else trivial.
They will know that the drones are targeting those killers and hindering them in their murderous campaigns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:27 AM

If they are thinking people, they will know that Islamists are slaughtering Muslims on a scale that makes anything and everything else trivial.

What, like the Holocaust? Like the killing of hundreds of thousands in Iraq in a war caused by us? Like the Second Congo War (five and a half million dead, for those who've never heard of it)? Like Rwanda? Like Stalin? Like the Khmer Rouge? The Chinese civil war? First Word War? All these are "trivial" side-by-side with Islamists slaughtering Muslims?

Do have a little think occasionally before you post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:38 AM

I did not mean since the dawn of time Steve.
Muslims kill Mulims in Iraq in daily bombing and shooting atrocities that no-one even bothers to report any more.
Iraqis go on Jihad to Syria to kill Muslims for Assad alongside Isalmists of Hezbollah busy doing the same.
Sunni Jihadist travel to Iraq to shoot and bomb the Shia Muslims there, and also to Syria to kill Assad's Hezbollah, Iranian and Iraqi allies.

The poor wretched people dream of getting away to our lands as Bobad correctly stated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:40 AM

Rhetorical question Steve.

That's why TC explains so so much....




In terms of perhaps injecting some reality into the debate, Islam has no hierarchisation. The term "they" demonstrates naivety of the first order. A bit like the excellent TCism in another thread where a certain someone said there was never any Christian equivalent of Islamism.

That's the derogatory definition meaning terrorism, not the more accurate meaning, "of Islam."

Keep praying TC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:43 AM

Then that qualification should have been in your post. Without it, your post stands as a downright lie which seems intended to paint Islam as black as possible. One has suspicions, knowing as one does your track record.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:44 AM

That was to Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:59 AM

Steve, in my post I spoke of it in the present tense.

TC, you lie about me again, and of course you can refer to any group as "they."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 07:09 AM

And Steve, I do not have a "track record" except for being smeared.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 14 - 07:52 AM

"They will know that the drones are targeting those killers "
The use of drones is now being condemned worldwide as acts of terror.
Surveys in US universities have calculated that their use is not only killing civilians but also increasing acts of terrorism.
It is alienating Muslim countries, even those who support action against terrorism.
The US Government has blocked debates on civilian casualties
Surveys among US citizens have produced figures revealing that nearly half those questioned believe them to be terrorist acts.
One little known fact is that the first use of drones was by Israel in Lebanon and the Israeli and US Drone manufacturing Industries is quite likely to become the new industrial kid on the block
Winning the hearts and minds of the Arab people with the use of Drones is about as likely anybody taking Keith seriously
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 08:27 AM

The radicalism of a religion to push a political/empire agenda is itself nothing new. Presenting the Umayyad Caliphate, Part Deux.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:31 AM

The use of drones is now being condemned worldwide as acts of terror.
Which governments Jim?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 14 - 12:28 PM

"Which governments Jim?"
Try some of the human and war crimes rights groups reporting from all round the world
It's no wonder that nobody takes you seriously.
And address the rest of the posting with the research and the reported results of the attacks on people who are otherwise supportive of fighting terrorism - not to mention those U.S citizens who have condemned the actions
And the US governments efforts to hide casualty figures by quashing debate on it.
If   If you take your nose out of the arses of the Governments of the world - all who have economic and financial interests in keeping on the right side of America, you would realise the wave of opposition to U.S. behaviour.
Now the production of Drones has entered the market-place, the Arms Industry being what it is, we are a hairsbreadth from having these weapons sold to extremist states - Bahrain is one of the West's favourite customers at present - now there's a thought
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:03 PM

There are many Mudcat members who see nothing wrong with the use of drones by police and other such authorities. Their reasoning is that if you have nothing to hide then why worry. They frequently use the term tinfoil hat.

As for which governments have condemned or voiced reservations about the use of drones to kill people, a quick Google found the following:

'EU Parliament proposes a ban refers drone strikes as "unlawful."

Strasbourg - European Union Members of Parliament condemned the use of drones in targeted killings in a vote of 534 to 49. The vote proposing a ban referred to the drone strikes as "unlawful."'

from

http://www.popularresistance.org/landslide-vote-in-european-union-condemning-u-s-drone-use/


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:20 PM

Ah - but is it a "qualified" Parliament?
Sorry - in joke - followers of Keith's career as a war crimes appeaser and atrocity apologist will get it!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:23 PM

Uterine Device! That's what it must mean.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:38 PM

Stanford NYU report
one
two
three
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 May 14 - 02:45 PM

Utterly Disastrous?

Urban Decay?

Uncle Desmond?

Unnatural Development?

........ ........?????

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 03:15 PM

UD Ledbetter?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 05:31 PM

The use of drones is now being condemned worldwide as acts of terror.
So, which governments?
Any EU governments?
Scandinavian?
Which?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 14 - 05:38 PM

Much more mundane I'm afraid. Think 2001 A Space Odyssey.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:13 PM

When it comes to slaughtering Muslim people, Islamists beat drones many, many times over, and drones are targeted at those killers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 01 May 14 - 06:59 PM

Yes, Keith, the drones are. However, they are killing more innocent civilians than terrorists. You had an answer to some of which governments are not in favor of drone warfare. Allow me to repeat:

'EU Parliament proposes a ban refers drone strikes as "unlawful."

Strasbourg - European Union Members of Parliament condemned the use of drones in targeted killings in a vote of 534 to 49. The vote proposing a ban referred to the drone strikes as "unlawful."'

from

http://www.popularresistance.org/landslide-vote-in-european-union-condemning-u-s-drone-use/


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 May 14 - 09:41 PM

Don't confuse FW Keith with facts and truth, Guest. He has a hard time dealing with reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 01 May 14 - 10:58 PM

There is at least one country that is for drones:

Yemen asks U.S. for drones to fight al Qaeda


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:23 AM

So the use of these weapons is OK if the politicians agree to them - do we have that right?
You have the facts about them - you have their effects - you have the public response to them - you have the research on them - you have (some of the) facts on civilian casualties - you even have the response of the people of Yemen on them Boo-Boo - but it's OK if that nice Mr Cameron (and possibly in the near future, that nicer Mr Farrago) gives them the nod.
Nothing new there then Keith - after all 'Politicians rule - OK'.
Inhuman prat!!
Jim Carroll
YEMEN


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 14 - 03:17 AM

Yes, drones do kill innocent civilians. So do terrorists, many times over. Neither are right and justifying one with the other is a ludicrous argument. However, given the choice of targeted bombing and indiscriminate bombing I think the former is the lesser of two evils. Neither should exist but, sadly, they do. Until people learn to live with each other they always will. And I think there are prime examples of people who cannot live with each other on here!

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 14 - 03:22 AM

I know about the EU.
I asked about governments.
When I posted that EU Parliament had voted against oil drilling in the Arctic, I was reminded, rightly, that the body is irrelevant.

The overwhelming majority of people here have no idea who their MEP is or what they stand for.
The debates are not even reported here because everyone knows they are meaningless and pointless.
They just a talking shop.

The use of drones is now being condemned worldwide as acts of terror.
So, which governments?

So, which governments?

However, they are killing more innocent civilians than terrorists.
How do we know?
The Taleban supply the reports.
Their only defence against the drones is to make us believe that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 03:43 AM

"The Taleban supply the reports."
And the US suppresses the supports - so they are obviously significant
The Stanford report bears out that not only are the civilian casualties significant but the bombing is having the effect of escalating terrorism.
The "Governments" are in hock to the U.S., and if they weren't - there' is always the veto to fall back on.
F*** the Governments - they are all a bunch of self-serving shysters when it comes down to it.
The truth of the matter is coming from the independent human rights groups - and from surveys from the inside the US.
Legality of Drones
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 14 - 04:09 AM

So, when you said "condemned worldwide as acts of terror." you did not mean by the people who actually have the facts, the governments.

I am sure there are individuals and groups on both sides of the argument, so your statement was wrong.

Meanwhile the massive industrial scale slaughter of Muslims by Muslims goes on unabated such that the effects of all the drones in the world pale into insignificance in comparison.
Indeed, there is no comparison.
It is a distraction to obscure the real issue facing the world right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 14 - 04:18 AM

Extracts from Jim's Yemen link.
"Drone strikes are never the solution. It is a tactical band-aid but it can be quite an important one if you don't want to see planes dropping from the sky in the West," said Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at the Swedish National Defence College.

The drones' main success has been to severely limit AQAP's movements and ability to hold territory as it did back in 2011.

"When they move from A to B, they have to think 100 times. They've lost their freedom," said Mustafa Alani, a security analyst with close ties to the Saudi Interior Ministry.


Yemen's interior ministry said 55 militants were killed on Sunday alone, which would make it the biggest strike against al Qaeda militants since at least 2012.

It said three of those killed were leading members of al Qaeda. Yemen said 10 al Qaeda militants were killed in Saturday's attack.

A senior security source said investigations were being carried out into the identities of those killed, but confirmed that "leaders in the organization" had died.

Rumors have been swirling that those killed include AQAP leader Nasir al-Wuhayshi and Saudi bombmaker Ibrahim al-Asiri, especially after several eyewitness reports emerged that at least one helicopter had landed after a late Sunday night strike in the restive southern Shabwa province.

Tribal sources told Reuters on Sunday that five suspected militants were killed in that attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 04:33 AM

"you did not mean by the people who actually have the facts, the governments."
And the European Union is made up of what exactly - boy scout groups?
The Governments refuse to give the facts - it is not in their interests to do so.
The U.S. has actively suppressed discussion on the facts - it is in their interests to do so.
A British Government lied and breached international law in order to support the U.S. - it was in their interests to do so.
Nothing has changed since the illegal invasion of Iraq.
Reports from around the world - U.S. Canada, the Arab States, Britain, Australia, Ireland...... all condemning the Drone attacks as illegal - and producing researched documentation to prove they are
The landslide victory in the European Union make it official that Europe condemns the use of Drones - how many countries is that?
"It is a distraction to obscure the real issue facing the world right now."
The drones are not a distraction - they are a major part of the problem; they increase terrorism - researched; they alienate otherwise friendly Arab States - researched; they slaughter innocent civilians in their thousands - researched (as far as the U.S. will allow the figures to be made public)
Here we are again Keith versus humanity in his support of US atrocities and the poodles who appease them.
Why do we feed this moronic troll?
He'll be bringing out his "experts" and "historians" next.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 May 14 - 04:56 AM

Whether or not 'moronic troll' is a rational or reasonable description, Jim, I would point out that you are his main -- indeed practically his only -- 'feed'!

So don't do it and he won't respond.

Simples!

〠~M~〠


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 05:40 AM

"So don't do it and he won't respond".
Yes - unfortunately he will - and I'm not his only feed Mike
But thanks for the advice - there's enough there for everybody to be going on with - which was my only point in posting on this anyway - "pearls before morons trying to provide him with facts (to quote his own phrase - nearly)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 14 - 06:52 AM

From your own link Jim.

" it (drone strikes) can be quite an important one if you don't want to see planes dropping from the sky in the West," said Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at the Swedish National Defence College."

I don't want to see planes dropping.
Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 02 May 14 - 12:24 PM

'So, when you said "condemned worldwide as acts of terror." you did not mean by the people who actually have the facts, the governments.'

You mean the same governemnts who assured the world that Iraq had WMDs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:53 PM

I don't want to see planes dropping.

Much more likely to see pigs flying, FW. Your tenuous grip on reality is sliding into psychosis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 May 14 - 02:56 PM

I didn't say it Greg.
It was that other FW, Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at the Swedish National Defence College.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 05:49 PM

AMNESTY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 14 - 06:18 PM

"From your own link Jim."
I don't want to see innocent civilians being slaughtered by of ineffectual and illegal terrorist 'counter-terrorism (sic)'
Jim Carroll

Also from my link

Five. Retired high-ranking military and CIA veterans challenge the legality and efficacy of drone killings
Retired US Army Colonel Ann Wright squarely denies the legality of drone warfare, telling Democracy Now: "These drones, you might as well just call them assassination machines. That is what these drones are used for: targeted assassination, extrajudicial ultimate death for people who have not been convicted of anything."
Drone strikes are also counterproductive. Robert Grenier, recently retired Director of the CIA Counter-Terrorism Center, wrote, "One wonders how many Yemenis may be moved in the future to violent extremism in reaction to carelessly targeted missile strikes, and how many Yemeni militants with strictly local agendas will become dedicated enemies of the West in response to US military actions against them."
Recent polls of the Pakistan people show high levels of anger in Pakistan at US military attacks there. This anger in turn leads to high support for suicide attacks against US military targets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 02 May 14 - 06:41 PM

'So, when you said "condemned worldwide as acts of terror." you did not mean by the people who actually have the facts, the governments.'

You mean the same governemnts who assured the world that Iraq had WMDs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 02 May 14 - 07:09 PM

Messages recovered from Osama bin Laden's home after his death in 2011, including one from then al Qaeda No. 3, Atiyah Abd al-Rahman reportedly, according to the Agence France-Presse and the Washington Post, expressed frustration with the drone strikes in Pakistan. According to an unnamed U.S. Government official, in his message al-Rahman complained that drone-launched missiles were killing al Qaeda operatives faster than they could be replaced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 03:45 AM

So what have we got so far
Attacks on civilian areas that are killing non-combatants (good o' 'collateral damage').
The US refusing to reveal figures on what those casualties are and suppressing attempts to debate the issue in Congress.
Surveys showing that, rather than controlling terrorism, these attacks are escalating it.
The same reports are pointing out that the attacks are almost certainly a breach of both international laws and those on human rights abuses - in fact, acts of terrorism themselves.
World-wide condemnation of the attacks by human rights groups and war crimes observers, including Amnesty International - Britain appears to be the only Nation actively supporting them by providing information on the targets of the attacks - colluding in what appears to be a war crime (as Guest.# points out - back to the balmy days of WMD).
As well as this, there is a growing 'Drone' manufacturing industry, straining at the leash and complaining that it is not been given enough support to allow it to reach its full potential.
When it does, we can look forward to Drone sales to whoever has the wherewithal, so if that nice Mr Assad can hold out for long enough, perhaps he might be able to get his hands on some and bring 'normality' back to Syria - that nice Mr Cable has already told us that the arms industry isn't particularly fussy about who the British armourers sell weapons to.
If all this wasn't enough - the Drone attacks have Keith's blessing - what more can we possibly need to help us identify an atrocity?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:42 AM

From your own link Jim.

" it (drone strikes) can be quite an important one if you don't want to see planes dropping from the sky in the West," said Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at the Swedish National Defence College."

I don't want to see planes dropping.
Do you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 03 May 14 - 04:55 AM

A thread about terrorism and Keith manages to slip in a party political protest about the European Parliament.

Well done. Fancy standing in Newark?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 05:16 AM

You have the facts Keith - legal, humanitarian and tactical, stuff your 'expert' opinions and answer them if you want to start making an intelligent contribution to this discussion - otherwise - troll off
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 05:26 AM

Musket, Jim thought that an EU vote implied approval by EU governments.

Jim, you have provided no "facts," "legal, humantarian and tactical."
Just a few individuals' opinions that are not shared by governments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:30 AM

No dialogues Keith remember what you have been told
Respond to the researched facts by Stanford and Amnesty or go away and let the rest of us have a go.
You are not saying anything - just filibusting by ignoring what is being said by others
Go away
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:40 AM

The Amnesty link shows a girl who looks like Malala, the child shot in the head for being a girl and wishing to go to school.

Children, their teachers and ordinary Muslim people are being killed in horrifying numbers by the people who the drones target.
The numbers killed by drones are trivial in comparison.

Neither Stamford nor any other Westerners can go to the tribal lands and find the truth about who the drones kill.
It is in the interest of the Taleban, who control those areas absolutely, to exaggerate civilian casualties and conceal activist deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 14 - 09:53 AM

Dear me, Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 02:09 PM

Tragic, but what relevance Greg?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 May 14 - 02:26 PM

"(CNN) -- U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan have killed far more people than the United States has acknowledged, have traumatized innocent residents and largely been ineffective, according to a new study released Tuesday.
The study by Stanford Law School and New York University's School of Law calls for a re-evaluation of the practice, saying the number of "high-level" targets killed as a percentage of total casualties is extremely low -- about 2%."

from

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 May 14 - 05:23 PM

Do you think any of them have been to see?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 03 May 14 - 05:37 PM

You answer questions with questions, so I see no need to be involved with you at all. Keep well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 May 14 - 06:09 PM

Not quite, Guest. To be fair, Keith answers questions with irrelevancies and bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 May 14 - 07:47 PM

"Meanwhile, the Suras enjoining the duty of Jihad and/or militant proselytisation are legion. "The word jihad appears in 23 Quranic verses...Jihad appears 41 times in the Quran and frequently in the idiomatic expression "striving in the way of God"...Jihad is an important religious duty for Muslims" - Wikipedia"

WOW! 41 times in 23 verses out of a total of 6346 verses!

You're right Mike! It's the Q'ran, with its obsession with jihad, which we need to fear.

Or maybe it's just the few lunatics, like the killers of Lee Rigby and the TWENTY Saudis who were involved in the destruction of the WTC.

Over reacting? Naah! of course you aren't.........MUCH!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 May 14 - 08:13 PM

"I did not mean since the dawn of time Steve."

There you are Steve! Will you be told?

If it happened more than ten minutes ago, it's not a valid subject for discussion on KeithBook!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 May 14 - 08:20 PM

"And I think there are prime examples of people who cannot live with each other on here!"

Absolutely Dave, and some on this forum too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 May 14 - 08:22 PM

Dammit! the second half was meant for elsewhere.

Should read Absolutely Dave!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 03 May 14 - 08:38 PM

"Musket, Jim thought that an EU vote implied approval by EU governments."

Borrowing Greg's FW, who does Keith think were the participants in that EU vote?

Representatives of the governments which are EU members, that's who!

And as representatives, Keith is stupid enough to believe that they haven't voted according to the wishes of those governments!

No surprise there then!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 14 - 10:42 PM

http://dronewars.net/6-who-has-drones/


For anyone interested in the history of drones go to


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unmanned_aerial_vehicles#Vietnam_War:_Reconnaissance_Drones


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 03:43 AM

EMPs are not government representatives.
Probably because that is what YOU called him, Mr (I'm always polite) K A of H
That is false too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 May 14 - 03:56 AM

Indeed, our MEPs are directly elected in separate elections from the General Elections to Parliament, and are not appointed by Parliament or the Government; so they do indeed represent their electorates, not the UK Government. There will be a Euro-Election in a couple of weeks time, Thur 22 May.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:21 AM

"Keith is stupid enough to believe that they haven't voted according to the wishes of those governments!"
In the end it doesn't matter anyway - the fact that the Pro-Atrocity contingent (PAC has a fine ring to it) here refuse to respond to independent reports from Amnesty and other groups throughout the world puts US support exactly where it is - in the hands of the clique of US poodles and dependents who will support (or, in this case) stay silent on whatever their bosses choose to do.
The Only Government actively supporting the US is - guess who - Britain, whose security forces are helping pin-point 'terrorist' targets
The US refuses to release civilian casualty figures and has suppressed discussion on them, which indicates they are significantly high enough to be a damning feature.
The Taliban claims are certainly exaggerated, but they are also incomplete; the organisation (sic) is made up of dispirit groups with no central body and no means of collecting and assessing them, so they represent a tiny pin-prick of what is happening.
In 2011, the official estimate of civilian casualties was between 3 and 9 - independent calculations from Columbia Law School calculated there were between 72 and 155, a discrepancy of 2,300 per cent - information from within the US itself
The use of Drones has escalated in the last three years.
The US is involved in the mass murder of civilians and it is being actively supported by Britain - no change there, of course.      
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 04:25 AM

I should have added - these figures - just as the reports from Stanford and Amnesty, will be ignored by the PAC
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:03 AM

To put those "exaggerated" estimates into perspective, that number of Muslims are killed by Muslims, in Syria alone, not just every day but every afternoon.

The people targeted have the blood of countless Muslims on their hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 04 May 14 - 07:22 AM

Here we go again.

If somebody else is worse, what we do is perfectly fine, eh Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 07:42 AM

Just putting it into perspective.
Muslims are being slaughtered on a truly horrific scale by other Muslims.
The drones are targeted at some of the very worst killers.
Child killers.
School burners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 14 - 08:03 AM

Child killers.
School burners.
This might well be the drones you are referring to - there are no indications of who the victims are - the US has made certain of this.
You have the studies on the efficacy of the Drones from independant sources - your only way around them is to ignore them
You have the percentage claims of civilian casualties - you ignore them too
You have the legality of their use - you ignore that
You have the likelihood of them going onto the open market and sold to the poeople to claim are "Child killers and school burners (though t you were talking about the Israelis for a minute - that s what they do) - you ignore that
It really isn't surprising that you are as ignorant as you often claim you are.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 14 - 03:50 PM

Is Islam a religion of peace, or body pieces?
It's the later I'm afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:17 PM

As the idea of Muslims killing Muslims seems to be a theme here, perhaps it just shows that Islamism, as Keith terms most terrorism, isn't about Islam anyway?

Perhaps it's about power , territory and control after all ?

No need to be sanctimonious about being a fucking Christian then eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 14 - 05:20 PM

If somebody else is worse, what we do is perfectly fine, eh Keith?

He stole that one from BullshitBruce. Can't even be original in his idiocy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 May 14 - 06:47 PM


As the idea of Muslims killing Muslims seems to be a theme here, perhaps it just shows that Islamism, as Keith terms most terrorism, isn't about Islam anyway?


Islamists are very intolerant.
They do not believe that anyone except there own kind of Muslim deserves to live.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 May 14 - 09:30 PM

Why is it, do you think, Musket, that FW Keith refuses to acknowledge that Christians[sic] killing Christians[sic] has stacked up more corpses than Muslims killing Muslims?

Or that Christians[sic] killing members of every other reliion on the face of the earth results in a still larger pile of corpses?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 05 May 14 - 03:05 AM

A relative (by marriage, I hasten to add) is training to be a vicar. He is slightly concerned to have to study a module which is there to demonstrate that the Q'ran is evil. He asked if there is any study of the less savoury aspects of the bible.

This is common or garden Church of England for fuck's sake!



Still, good on him for questioning what is to me preaching intolerance. Not that he agrees with me. I told him the role of a vicar isn't to believe in all that nonsense, but to ensure the punters do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 03:15 AM

"Islamists are very intolerant."
All religious zealots are intolerant - Christianity has a centuries old history of torturing and burning non-believers and leading churchmen in the Christian Churches (not necessarily zealots) have stated that they would do so again if the same circumstances prevailed.
Muslim communities, especially those in Britain, are extremely tolerant and are recognised as being so.
During my thirty years in London, I would far sooner have discussed religion, politics and race with any of the many Muslims I met than with many of the indigenous Londoners I associated with - taboo subjects to be avoided like the plague.
I assume you will continue to ignore the facts about the use of the remote killing machines (Drones).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 14 - 07:39 AM

So, GregF,

You ran out of duct tape for the guinea pigs again???


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 05 May 14 - 08:06 AM

"Why is it, do you think, Musket, that FW Keith refuses to acknowledge that Christians[sic] killing Christians[sic] has stacked up more corpses than Muslims killing Muslims?"

Because most of them died some time ago, and Keith prefers to ignore anything that happened before the current rise of terrorism, due to the actions of the West interfering in the Middle East


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 14 - 08:20 AM

Love you too, BullshitBruce. But can't you come up with a new form of abuse? The old one is getting stale & boring.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 14 - 08:23 AM

You are the one specializing in abuse- but those poor guinea pigs can't post here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 08:35 AM

Troubadour, in recent centuries, when did Christians kill each other for religious reasons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 09:02 AM

Inter-Christian differences within the British Isles have led to a massive loss of life throughout the 20th century - particularly in the twenty years from the end of the 1960s
Religious conflicts continue to be a major stumbling block to peace talks in Northern Ireland and if bigots like yourself have your way
If bigots like yourself have your way, this will continue to be the case - what on earth are you on?
Go and look in the mirror if you want to see British religious warfare
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 10:02 AM

Really Jim?
I thought the Troubles were about having a united Ireland or leaving the North as part of UK.
Are you telling us that the bombings, shootings and rioting were about if transubstantiation actually happens during mass, the need for confession etc.

I think that it was just convenient but not accurate to label the communities Catholic and Protestant.
Nationalist and Unionist is better, and the combatants Republicans and Loyalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 10:33 AM

"I thought the Troubles were about having a united Ireland or leaving the North as part of UK."
Britain divided Ireland on a sectarian basis, leaving the Protestants in charge - since 1922 this has remained the major cause of death, disturbances and persecution in the British part of Ireland.
"No Popery" has been a prominent feature of the violent sectarian demonstrations there and church leaders such as Paisley have made the Troubles holy warfare for since independence
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:23 AM

There were lots of Protestants in the Republican movement back then.
It was never a religious conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 May 14 - 11:51 AM

No Keith. Sectarian violence just isn't Christian, is it?

zzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 12:00 PM

The Irish Troubles have always been about home rule, not religion.
Is that the only example you can think of?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 12:41 PM

SEGREGATION IN NORTHERN IRELAND
Religious division has been a formalised feature of Irish life since the Treaty of Union in 1801
It has adversely affected the lives of Catholics since that period, restricting their rights to own property and hold public office - including the right to teach.
It was written into the newly partitioned Northern Ireland in 1922 and restricted Catholics from voting in elections
Open prejudice against Catholics kicked off the Civil Rights marches in the 1960s - the fact that the Protestant 'forces of law and order' backed the Protestant majority, leading to bloody retaliation against the marchers, led directly to 'The Troubles'.
Inter-religious Christian prejudice and violence has been the longest running active warfare on this planet.
Read a book
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 05 May 14 - 01:02 PM

So... If it contains Muslims it is religious violence. If it contains Christians it is about territory.

Go and take a tablet Keith. You know what the nurse said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 01:08 PM

The conflict in Ireland is indeed about politics not religion.
Did you ever hear IRA make any religious claims?
They wanted a united Ireland not a ban on condoms.

Any other examples?
Real ones?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 01:19 PM

Here is the History of the Troubles as told by Sinn Fein.
No mention of religion.
It was and is political.
http://www.corksf.20m.com/about.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 01:36 PM

You have the facts of religious segregation in the North of Irland and its effect on the people there - as I said - the most continuous form of religious warfare on the planet - and still alive and kicking after two centuries
The fact that you will continue to ignore this fact is par for the course for you - if it isn't Muslim - it isn't religious warfare.
"when did Christians kill each other for religious reasons?"
You have your answer
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 01:51 PM

The Irish troubles were not a religious conflict.
The fighting was about home rule.
Sinn Fein makes no mention of religion in in its story of the struggle.

Guardian today.
"On 14 April, Boko Haram stormed an all-girl secondary school in the village of Chibok, in Borno state, then packed the teenagers, who had been taking exams, on to lorries and disappeared into a remote area along the border with Cameroon.

The brazenness and brutality of the school attack shocked Nigerians, who have been growing accustomed to hearing about atrocities in an increasingly bloody five-year-old Islamist insurgency in the north.

"I abducted your girls. I will sell them in the market, by Allah," Boko Haram leader Abubakar Shekau said in the video, according to AFP, which is normally the first media outlet to get hold of Shekau's videos.

Boko Haram, now seen as the main security threat to Africa's leading energy producer, is growing bolder and extending its reach. The kidnapping occurred on the same day as a bomb blast, also blamed on Boko Haram, that killed 75 people on the edge of Abuja and marked the first attack on the capital in two years.

The militants, who say they are fighting to reinstate a medieval Islamic caliphate in northern Nigeria, repeated that bomb attack more than two weeks later in almost exactly the same spot, killing 19 people and wounding 34 in the suburb of Nyanya."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 05 May 14 - 02:06 PM

Funny how all those on one side of the divide go to mass and all those the other side to Presbyterian churches.

Fucking huge coincidence eh?

What about the posts about Muslims killing Muslims? Or is that different because they are ignorant savages and don't understand?

zzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: pdq
Date: 05 May 14 - 02:10 PM

Of the Top 21 violent conflicts now going on in the world, 20 are caused by Muslims.

Only the Sri Lanca problem is not. It incvolves the territorial takover of a soverein country (mostly Buddhist) by ethnic Indians (Hindu, so it is both ethnic and religious).


HERE THEY ARE:

1. Afghanistan Extreme radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslim Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan.

2. Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims

3. Cote d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christians

4. Cyprus Christians & Muslims

5. East Timor Christians & Muslims

6. Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims

7. Kashmir Hindus and Muslims

8. Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians, Muslims

9. Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.

10. Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims

11. Middle East Jews, Muslims, &Christians

12. Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims

13. Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims

14. Philippines Christians & Muslims

15. Russia, Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims. The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged.

16. Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics

17. Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils

19. Thailand: Pattani province: Buddists and Muslims

20. Bangladesh: Muslim-Hindu (Bengalis) and Buddists (Chakmas)

21. Tajikistan: intra-Islamic conflict


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 02:29 PM

The paramilitary killers do not attend any kind of church Musket.
The Muslims killing Muslims today are Shia killing Sunni because they are Sunni, and vice versa.

Here is the link to today's Guardian piece.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/05/boko-haram-claims-responsibility-kidnapping-nigeria-schoolgirls


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 14 - 03:08 PM

Didn't realize Procul Harum had relocated to Africa. Will they be releasing a new CD any time soon, FW?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 14 - 03:32 PM

The oldest ongoing holy war n the world
Jim Carroll

PENAL LAWS - REPEALED 1920
RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION IN THE UK
18TH AND 19TH CENTURY IRELAND
The division of Ireland
Throughout the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century more and more Irish groups began fighting for their independence. But the Protestants who lived in the northern part of the island wanted to stay with Great Britain.
in 1922 the island was divided. Six, mostly protestant, counties in the north stayed a part of the UK. The rest of the island , mostly Catholic, became the Irish Free State and an independent republic in 1949.
Up to 1972 Northern Ireland was allowed to rule itself . During this time the Catholics, who lived in the Protestant province had no easy life. They did not have the same rights and opportunities that the Protestants had. They were discriminated against in all aspects of life. They barely found jobs, got less money from the government and were often harassed by the police.
The Troubles
In the late 1960s riots broke out between Protestants and Catholics in Belfast and Londonderry. The violent decades that followed became known as "the Troubles".
At the beginning of the 1970s The British government sent soldiers to Northern Ireland to restore peace and decided to rule Northern Ireland directly from London.
Events escalated when 13 unarmed demonstrators were shot during a protest march in the streets of Londonderry on January 31, 1972. The incident became known as "Bloody Sunday".
Both religious groups started to build up paramilitary organizations. On the Catholic side the Irish Republican Army (IRA) carried out attacks on Protestants in the North. It wanted to force the British out of Northern Ireland and create a single Catholic state on the island. On the Protestant side the Ulster Defence Association and others terrorized the Catholic population living in Ulster.
In the 1980s the IRA started attacking the British in England. They planted bombs in London, kidnapped and killed high-ranking officials. Activists were arrested and thrown into prison. During the 80s some of them died during hunger strikes.
In the 1990s the British government started working on a peaceful solution to end the Troubles. In over 30 years of violence over 3,000 people were killed in the conflict.
The peace process
As time went on both sides realized that violence could not lead to a solution in the conflict. The British and Irish governments tried to get political and paramilitary sides to the conference table. In addition, the IRA promised to end all violent activities. Finally, talks ended in a historic agreement signed on Good Friday 1998.
NORTHERN IRELANDS HOLY WAR
1960S


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 14 - 03:34 PM

Keith, do you not fancy changing your name? Gender reassignment not required.

Keithy and Jim


:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 May 14 - 04:18 PM

The war in Ireland was about home rule not religion.
Sinn Fein is quite clear about that, and I will say no more about it.

Greg, that was so funny about 1500 people murdered since January and 200 schoolgirls dragged away to be raped and sold.
People take that kind of shit too seriously right?
Just human misery and despair.
Laugh it up!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 May 14 - 05:22 PM

Must say, Greg, with all moderation, that I think your levity (03.08 pm) was a little misplaced on this occasion.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 May 14 - 10:05 PM

Oh, and ~M~, see if you can get thru FW Keith's skull the number of innocent civiliand blown off the face of the earth by U.S. drone strikes, for a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 14 - 02:23 AM

Are you ****** mad - generation after generation of Ireish people fighting a nationalist cause/
The buzz word throughout all the Irish struggles was "freedom" - a major part of which was religious freedom.
Anti-Catholic Britain imposed the Protestant religion on Ireland from the time of Elizabeth I.
The religion was forced underground and was forbidden to be practiced under the threat of death and a price was put on a priest's head.
Fanatical Protestant armies destroyed churches and slaughtered parishioners and clergymen.
The Penal Laws prohibited Catholics from owning land and holding public office - they were stopped from teaching it and the native language.
Right into the 20th century, laws on property ownership were a major part of national oppression.
When the country was partitioned, religion became a barrier int taking part in the running of the northern counties - much of the disturbance there was religion based - the Penal Laws were not actually repealed until 1922.
Obtaining employment, running businesses and holding political office was a matter of what religion you were - the National struggle in Ireland was inextricably linked with religious freedom - all this was a cause of on-running violence and oppression in the North, long after the establishment the 26 County Republic.
The history of British laws in Ireland forbidding Catholics to buy land meant that they were the poorest section of the population
With the setting up of the partitioned North, the laws imposing a minimum property qualification meant it was largely the Protestants who could vote
1969 RIOTS
The Troubles that began in the 60s was a continuation of what had gone before and the oppression that was being resisted by the Civil Rights Movement was as much a religious as an economic one - when religion is used to facilitate oppression, that is inevitable
You talked about "every dog in the street" knowing..." ask anybody what the Irish problem is and they will say "Catholic versus Protestant".
The violently aggressive marches that are about to take place are religion based.
Even in my own experience as an apprentice in 1960s Liverpool, my employment on the docks during times when work was slack, depended on what religion I could claim to be - if the Catholic firms had work - I worked, if the opposite was the case, I didn't - right up to forty odd years ago.
In the North of Ireland and in Cities like Glasgow and Liverpool, that remained the case until even more recently.
When it comes to religious oppression - the Muslim religion are totally new kids on the block - Christianity has a track record of religious oppression that can not hope to surpass.
If you want to see religious fanaticism at its most extreme - take a look in the mirror.
You are now into your 'Islam is the only oppressor mode' and no other religion counts - sick-sick-sick.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 06 May 14 - 02:57 AM

Keith says paramilitaries don't go to church. Funny how on one side they went to mass in order to reflect their community and on the other they kept voting Rev Ian Paisley to fan flames.

No. Paramilitaries don't go to church Keith. Just normal people like you eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 14 - 03:59 AM

Oh, I see that Boko Haram has now been allowed a mention. Many Nigerians are I gather concerned that the funding it has, which enables it to have in many cases better weaponry than Nigerian government forces, could only come from Western sources with an interest in destabilising Nigeria - in order the more completely to control Nigerian oil and other resources. John Kerry is openly lusting after Nigerian resources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 03:59 AM

Yes Musket.

Jim, the IRA was fighting for a united Ireland, not a war against Protestantism.

From "The History Of Sinn Fein and Irish Republicanism." on the SF site I linked to yesterday.

"We are dedicated to the reunification of our Country through political representation and through the election of our members by the people, and for the people of this Island regardless of race or creed.

Modern Irish Republicans trace their political origins to the movement of the United Irishmen (and women, lets be politically correct here as women fought in these battles too!)of the 1790's. The United Irishmen took their inspiration from the French Revolution and fought to break the political connection between Ireland and Britain, believing that only an independent Ireland could guarantee equality and prosperity for the Irish people.
Most leading figures of the United Irishmen were Presbyterians and a key part of their programme was unity between Irish people of all religions and none in the cause of liberty."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 06 May 14 - 05:37 AM

Fascinating reading how Keith feels religion has no bearing in Northern Ireland but blames a religion where Muslim people are in fights for land, power and influence.

Tell me, do you think that Christianity is above all that? Don't you think that Islam is exactly the same? Aren't both variants of imaginary friend a front to get ignorant peasants to do the fighting for those who gain from it?

Do you think Christians have some moral higher ground than Muslims?

Where do decent respectable rational people who don't believe in any of that nonsense fit in your ranking system?

True to fucking form.

TC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 14 - 05:51 AM

"Jim, the IRA was fighting for a united Ireland, not a war against Protestantism."
Same thing
Protestantism enforced laws excluding Catholics from having any influence in Northern Ireland theirs was a holy war
It was no different in any way to what is now happening in Muslim countries, or in Israel, for that matter, those in charge are using religion to gain and hold office.
In both cases, it is power that is the driving force, not religion.
The Zealots, in both cases, may take their religion to extremes, but in the end, it is wealth and influence which is the driving force.
Your fanatical hatred of Muslims is beyond belief
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 06 May 14 - 05:58 AM

"I think that it was just convenient but not accurate to label the communities Catholic and Protestant."

Every city in Northern Ireland is divided into Catholic (i.e. Christian) areas, and protestant (i.e. Christian) areas. During the troubles, people died for just being in the wrong place, and youngsters were beaten up for falling for someone of the other faith.

Abuse was screamed at small children who had the misfortune to go to school by crossing the opposing side's territory. Orange parades had to be stopped by police action from being used to aggravate the Catholics by marching through their areas.

How much hard evidence do you need for the sectarian division in that country?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 06:24 AM

Richard, I have been referring to the situation in Nigeria throughout this thread, but despite the title certain people insisted on talking about drones and Ireland instead of "Islamic Radicalism"!

You are being very gullible to believe the propaganda that Boko Haram, like everything bad in the world, is the fault of the evil West.

Al Jazeera two weeks ago,
" The movement has established supply routes and funding sources. Caches of recovered Boko Haram weapons have been traced to Libya, and Ansaru, at least, has established links with AQIM and Al-Shabab. "
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/4/23/boko-haram-s-rootsinnigerialongpredatethealqaedaera.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 14 - 07:41 AM

Keith - I merely report what some Nigerian contacts say. And where are the helicopters coming from? Where the weaponry that is more modern and costly than that of the army? Can ALL that money be coming from bank robberies, blackmail, and nomads? It may not be impossible, but it is implausible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:16 AM

The Ku Klux Klan are strongly Christian. So are most black people in the U.S.

Abortion clinic bombers are strongly Christian. So are many health care workers and patients.

People who kill gay people almost all self-identify as Christian. Many, many gay people are Christian.

The majority of religious attacks in the U.S. are Christians attacking Jews. Is that close enough to Christian on Christian? No Muslims there.

They all claim to be doing their terrorist acts in order to save or protect Christianity.

John P


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:33 AM

Looks like naughty people get to go to church after all Keith.

Possibly to get justification for their deeds from sanctimonious bigots eh?

The pulpit of a church, just like the raised dais in a mosque can be a pretty powerful place to feed ideas.

I'd possibly take the opportunity to have a good long think if I were you Keith. And this time, don't just rearrange your prejudices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:39 AM

Surely the more moronic Islamists also favour the death penalty for homosexualtiy, don't they? Just saying.

PS - although those Islamists from Boko Haram who denounce the idea that the world is round as "Unislamic" must surely be amongst the dimmest of dimshits.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:40 AM

I have no prejudice Musket.
You were wrong about paramilitaries mostly being church-goers.
The Irish troubles were about rule by Dublin or London, not religion.
Look at the murals.

May we return to the subject now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 May 14 - 12:24 PM

How much hard evidence do you need for the sectarian division in that country?

Hard evidence of any sort relating to any topic has never been known to have any effect whatsoever on FW Keith- no point confusing him with the facts.

I'm surprised you haven't realized that, Troubadour.

That pig ain't ever gonna sing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 12:57 PM

Greg, everyone else has always known about the sectarian divide.
Your ignorance amazes me yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 14 - 01:03 PM

The Irish troubles were about rule by Dublin or London, not religion."
By making the six counties a Protestant dominated sectarian state - they became a struggle between Catholic (the oppressed minority) and Protestants (the oppressor majority)
That is no different a situation than any other (Holy War)
GUEST,LK867 makes the point perfectly "he" had no trouble with anybody else's religion - which does not alter in any way, that if he fought for National independence, he would be fighting Protestants.
If Ireland was not a sectarian war, then neither is what is happening in the world today.

"This article considers the claim that the conflict in Northern Ireland was irreducibly religious. After a brief account of the history of the Northern Ireland conflict, the different arguments and counter arguments that bear on the role of religion in causing and sustaining the conflict are considered. An examination of the relationship of Islam to terrorism and the events of 9/11 provides a comparative perspective that is used both to identify similarities and differences between the situation in Ireland and elsewhere and to distinguish and discriminate between different ways in which religious sanction is given to violence. The implications of our findings are then explored with regard to our understanding of the Northern Ireland conflict and with regard to our understanding of the nature of religion more generally."
Taylor and Francis

YOUR FAVOURITE HISTORIAN

I have made a point of asking ever Muslim I have talked to how they feel about other religions - they have all, without exception given similar answers to that given by GUEST,LK867.
You can't have it both ways - is what is happening in the Islam is a holy war - then so was Ireland
If Ireland was not a religious conflict, then there is no religious threat from Islam -take your pick
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 03:10 PM

In Syria, thousands of Muslims have gone on Jihad, including hundreds from Britain.
Jihad in this context means holy war.
Sunnis flock to Syria and Iraq to wage Jihad against Sunnis.
Shia Muslims from Iran and Hezbollah are waging Jihad against the Sunni majority in Syria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 May 14 - 03:28 PM

"Sunnis flock to Syria and Iraq to wage Jihad against Shia."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:15 PM

Hard to believe we're back to the subject of the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 May 14 - 08:22 PM

Sunnis flock to Syria and Iraq to wage Jihad against Shia

Gee, FW, I seem to remember the U.S. and Britain flocking to Iraq and Afghanistan to wage war on Muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 06 May 14 - 10:13 PM

And don't forget the crusades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:24 AM

"must dig out some old Folk Reviews I have been intending to burn for some time now"
.,,.,.
Just come across this from Jim a few days back whose significance I didn't quite appreciate at the time. But do just consider, Jim, whose practice it has ever been to burn the works of those whose opinions they do not share.

& reflect!

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:37 AM

It was an ironic comment Mike - I've never burned printed material in my life, whether I disagreed with it or not - it goes against my principles as much as I am sure it does yours.
It saddens and upsets me that we don't seem to be able to discuss our differences rationally and without abuse - but that is not solely my fault - you have to take your share in that one.
Of course I wouldn't dream of burning any of our collection of Folk Mags - I've digitised and archived most of the stuff that interests me and they are all bequeathed to I.T.M.C. when we join the Choir Invisible - happy to let you have copies of anything you might be interested in - remember those articles by Fred Dallas and the mysterious 'Speedwell'?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 07:47 AM

"Sunnis flock to Syria and Iraq to wage Jihad against Shia."
This is an appalling distortion of the situation in Syria
Vlunteers cross the border into Syria to oppose Assad simply because the U.N. and the rest of the world has stood by and watch him slaughtering his own people - Britain's role has been to oppose intervention and sell Assad the wherewithal to make chemical weapons and riot control equipment to quell opposition.
It has nothing to do with religion - it is a continuation of the Arab Spring protests.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:00 AM

Great to see world finally on to Boko Haram/Brunei Sharia - and media/govt/people, make sure you keep pretending the central problem isn't Islam.

    -Bill Maher


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:16 AM

I got the hyperbolical irony, Jim; my reply likewise ironic -- tho with just maybe a soupçon of Socratic 'know thyself' as undertone! I agree that we are often too mutually abusive, & have been trying to tone down that aspect of our discourse; as, it is my impression, have you likewise. A tendency to be welcomed & persisted in, yes? Would you take it amiss if I suggested that your posts addressed to others might sometimes be more effective if less animadvertive? As I have recently repeated, I determined several years ago that my posts would contain no usages that could have offended even Terence Rattigan's 'Aunt Edna'; and I have never regretted this.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:30 AM

Sorry Mike Missed some of that - that Secondary Modern education again - and I ever really got on with Terence Rattigan.
Must try harder.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:44 AM

Sunnis flock to Syria to fight against the government, and Shia to fight for it.
It started as a rising against the government, but it became a holy war between the sects.

The rebels almost had Damascus before Hezbollah, now they have lost even Homs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:45 AM

I'm not a great Rattigan admirer in general, much prefer Coward; tho I think The Browning Version a very good play & Harlequinade one of best-ever comedies. But it was just that he invented an archetypal "Aunt Edna", a lady matinée-goer, whom he made it his endeavour never to risk offending as a matter of policy.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 08:59 AM

It is a fight for control of Syria between pro and anti Assad forces.
It should have been one carried out by the UN - Britain was oe of those who opposed intervention when he was in the process of committing war crimes
It seems from the news today that Britain has been guaranteed Syria as an arms customer for the foreseeable future
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 09:16 AM

You betcha, FW Keith - the source of all the world's problems: them flockin' Muslims again!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:01 AM

Nobody sez ALL of them, Greg. But if you deny that they are active in the promulgation of a fairish number of them, then you are even more of an idiotic ostrich than I thought.

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:03 AM

"Gee, FW, I seem to remember the U.S. and Britain flocking to Iraq and Afghanistan to wage war on Muslims." - GregF

Did you?? I remember a series of indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets by an international terrorist group whose leader demanded that the entire population of the USA convert to Islam, shred their Constitution and their Bill of Rights and live in accordance with strict Sharia Law (Refer to and read the Fatwas issued by Osama bin Laden in 1996 and in 1998). That attack falling inside the geographic area defined by Article 6 of the NATO Charter meant that Article 5 of the same charter could be invoked - hence in October 2001 a handful of US Special Advisers backed up by Special Forces Units from NATO assisted the Northern Alliance in running the Taleban and their Al-Qaeda "Guests" out of Afghanistan and over the border into Pakistan the country in which both were created (As far as I know the Taleban leadership continue to hide out there to this day).

While the forces of several nations (For several read 49) are present inside Afghanistan I do not believe that they went there to wage war on Muslims per se - they went there to fight alongside Afghans who happen to be Muslims (Let us call them the ANSF) who represent the security forces and police forces of a democratically elected and internationally recognised Government of an Islamic (Muslim) Republic against certain insurgent elements who are also Muslims.

In Iraq IIRC it was the secular national socialist (Nazi) Ba'athist regime of Saddam Hussein who refused to conform to the terms and conditions of the ceasefire agreement his own generals signed to suspend hostilities in March 1991. As those terms and conditions were not complied with ANY of the original combatant powers could deem the ceasefire as having been violated and would therefore be at liberty to resume hostilities to enforce compliance - so - nothing whatsoever to do with killing Muslims at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:40 AM

"Some would argue this is not the "real" Islam. Does it really matter what real Islam is when its true followers cannot stand against those who use religion to commit genocide?"

from this article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:56 AM

T-bird, I ain't going to go around with you on this yet again. The American invasion of Iraq was founded on falsified BuShite intelligence and outright lies & eagerly championed by your U.S. lapdog Prime Minister.

While the forces of several nations (For several read 49) are present inside Afghanistan

Yep- and they've produced absolutely nothing except piles of dead Muslims on both sides- strike that- they've also accomplished the waste of untold billions of dollars..


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 May 14 - 10:58 AM

they are active in the promulgation of a fairish number of them

Uh-huh, ~M~, Which could also be said of the U.S & a host of other so-called "Christian"[sic] nations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:37 AM

But surely, Jim, the degree of toxicity of the mix will depend on the particular demands made by its precepts and injunctions on the particular religion's followers. We have been into all this. Ms Hirsi Ali [& I follow her here] believes these to be more aggressively based in Islam than in others. Which is, as they say, where we came in, is it not?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:39 AM

The post of Jim's to which I was replying there appears to have vanished. What is going on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:43 AM

Sorry - scrub that. I was getting confused with the Gerry Adams thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:48 AM

Good job I don't go and punch our local vicar on the nose in retaliation for those Christian militants in Uganda then.

zzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 11:57 AM

Well, I don't know, Ian. What they say about "adding to the gaiety of nations"?

〠~M~〠


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 12:54 PM

"Which is, as they say, where we came in, is it not?"
Just responded to this on the Gerry Adams thread -as my mother used to say To quote my mother (at the risk of having her accused of being a tom by Terminus again) "You don't boil cabbages twice" .
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:19 PM

Today.
In a speech to parliament Mr Cameron earlier condemned the kidnapping as "an act of pure evil."

He said: "This is not just a Nigerian issue; it is a global issue.

"There are extreme Islamists around our world who are against education, against progress, against equality and we must fight them and take them on wherever they are."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:25 PM

Jim,
It should have been one carried out by the UN - Britain was one of those who opposed intervention when he was in the process of committing war crimes
Britain was against military intervention then.
You were in favour of again sending Western troops into an Arab land.
You recently described yourself as a pacifist!

When the British and US governments wanted to intervene over chemical weapons, you and I were the only backers here.
All your mates lined up with UKIP and the Tea Party opposing it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: pdq
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:30 PM

Yep, the Islamists have made a huge mistake this time.

Kidnapping 300 teenage girls and selling them to the international sex trade because the simply wanted to go to school like the boys do?

This will unite the world against Radical Islam and wake-up many of the fence-sitters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:48 PM

Guardian yesterday.



"Women are slaves. I want to reassure my Muslim brothers that Allah says slaves are permitted in Islam," he added, in an apparent reference to an ancient tradition of enslaving women captured during jihad, or holy war.

Speaking in northern Nigeria's Hausa language during a rambling hour-long speech, he threatened further attacks on schools and warned the international community not to get involved in Nigeria. Shekau has previously called western education "a plot against Islam" and urged his fighters to kill students and teachers.

"I will marry off a woman at the age of 12. I will marry off a girl at the age of nine," he said at another point in the video.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:56 PM

Inflammatory speech aimed at fools to stoke up hate of decent Muslim people.

The Guardian has a pecuniary interest in selling scares but to repeat it at face value? You should be ashamed of yourself Keith. Truly fucking ashamed.

Terrorists rely on idiots to help spread their bush fire. Happy are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 14 - 02:59 PM

"Britain was against military intervention then."
Yet the same Britain went into Iraq, it sold equipment and ammunition to Assad, Gadaffi and continues to sell it to all these nasty extremist Muslim states.
I have little doubt it will happily go into the Ukraine if H.M.V. on the other side of the pond whistles
" you and I were the only backers here."
Don't you dare associate my name with yours - your crocodile tears for the people of Homs included defending the sale of sniper ammunition, armoured cars and water cannon and proposing the sales of even more - as you said at the time "even democracies have the right to keep order" (or some gibberish of that sort).
It later extended to defending chemicals which could well have been used in the manufacture of chemical weapons - give us a break Keith - when it comes to defending atrocities, you are way out on your own.
I suggested that the UN should intervene - Britain voted against it - I then suggested that the more powerful democracies might intervene, as they had done in Iraq, Afghanistan - or where it was in their political or economic interests to do so - no takers there either - you can hardly wonder that the Islamist star is on the rise when the people have been totally abandoned by the West.
I describe myself as a pacifist (sort of) because I realise that pacifism is idealistic in today's world.
My father was a pacifist (sort of) yet he went and killed Spaniards because he believed that what was happening in Spain heralded something far worse - he got branded by British Democracy as a "premature Anti-Fascist by the forces of law and order and became unemployable in his home city for the next decade and a half.
I have no "mates" here- just people I either agree or disagree with.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:16 PM

"Then they predictably insist the actions of the Taliban, Al-Qaida, Boko Haram and the jihadi terror groups based in Pakistan are an aberration from true Islam.

But here is the problem.

Many of kidnapped school girls are Christians.

Both the exegesis of the Qur'an and reading of the Hadith literature speak of sex slavery of non-Muslim female POWs both during and after the life of Prophet Mohammed.

Instead of being courageous and saying while such commandments and permissions may have been valid in the seventh century, they are no longer applicable in the era of the nation-state and human rights, leaders of my community choose doublespeak."

Muslims must denounce Nigerian kidnap outrage


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:32 PM


Inflammatory speech aimed at fools to stoke up hate of decent Muslim people.
The Guardian has a pecuniary interest in selling scares but to repeat it at face value? You should be ashamed of yourself Keith. Truly fucking ashamed.


The speech was made by the leader of Boko Haram.
I now must be ashamed of quoting the Guardian quoting a criminal?
The Guardian should not print it and no-one should repeat it?
The whole thing should be hushed up because it is an contradicts your dogma?
Stalin would be proud of you Musket!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Rational Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 04:43 PM

No Keith. The terrorists should be proud of you and The Guardian.

They rely on fools repeating their bullshit and turning gullible idiots against decent law abiding people who enjoy their faith in the same way you do.

Well done.

What was the point of repeating it? To show people how irrelevant it is? Or was it to perpetuate fear and distrust within our own communities?

I hope you have no mirrors in your house.

TC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:18 PM

McMusket: I could scarcely believe it; so I have looked again.

And, yes ~~~

really must congratulate you on the most stupid post I recall ever having read on this forum (0256)... including a peculiarly gratuitous 'fucking' which grossly diminished what conceivable effect so fatuous a post might just have had.

& as for that conceited catachresis of a "Rational" sobriquet you see fit to award yourself to head your last post ~~ in a pig's - um, ahem - evacuatory orifice, my good fellow...


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:24 PM

Oh dear. As it's you Michael, I feel the urge to say something witty and erudite.






Fuck off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:24 PM

Would it be possible to change the thread title to 'UK-poster radicalism . . .'?

(Sounds like children arguing with each other, proudly standing with feet firmly planted in the air and vicariously pleading for someone, anyone, to proclaim how smart/intelligent you are, how incisive, how witty. OK, you're all smart/intelligent, incisive and witty. Thank to the Great Spirit that for the most part you stay off music threads.

( Here you go, with warm personal regards. )


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:30 PM

Of course, if Michael's wit went further than weird HTML and references to luvvies, he'd notice that it is one thing to read a post and another thing entirely to speculate why they put it.

Unless of course you are fully tuned in to Keith's little world.

You'd have to renounce your lack of belief though, it is the common thread to Keith's bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:40 PM

Musket

No


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:50 PM

This thread's subject is "Islamic radicalism."
The actions of an Islamist group is the lead news item world wide, but it must not be mentioned here!
If you do quote our most liberal, tolerant and left-leaning publication reporting the event, in Comrade Musket's collective, you are a "bigot" and should be "ashamed. Fucking ashamed!"

What is a shame is that people like you try to close down debate on our forum by the use of nasty, intimidating abuse against anyone who dares post something you do not want to be read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 May 14 - 05:55 PM

... mind you, though, O-Musky-One, I am greatly impressed by your wit & erudition as instanced there: far above your usual level of such attributes...


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:08 PM

"Gee, FW, I seem to remember the U.S. and Britain flocking to Iraq and Afghanistan to wage war on Muslims." - GregF

Did you?? I remember a series of indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets by an international terrorist group whose leader demanded that the entire population of the USA convert to Islam, shred their Constitution and their Bill of Rights and live in accordance with strict Sharia Law (Refer to and read the Fatwas issued by Osama bin Laden in 1996 and in 1998). That attack falling inside the geographic area defined by Article 6 of the NATO Charter meant that Article 5 of the same charter could be invoked - hence in October 2001 a handful of US Special Advisers backed up by Special Forces Units from NATO assisted the Northern Alliance in running the Taleban and their Al-Qaeda "Guests" out of Afghanistan and over the border into Pakistan the country in which both were created (As far as I know the Taleban leadership continue to hide out there to this day).

While the forces of several nations (For several read 49) are present inside Afghanistan I do not believe that they went there to wage war on Muslims per se - they went there to fight alongside Afghans who happen to be Muslims (Let us call them the ANSF) who represent the security forces and police forces of a democratically elected and internationally recognised Government of an Islamic (Muslim) Republic against certain insurgent elements who are also Muslims.

In Iraq IIRC it was the secular national socialist (Nazi) Ba'athist regime of Saddam Hussein who refused to conform to the terms and conditions of the ceasefire agreement his own generals signed to suspend hostilities in March 1991. As those terms and conditions were not complied with ANY of the original combatant powers could deem the ceasefire as having been violated and would therefore be at liberty to resume hostilities to enforce compliance - so - nothing whatsoever to do with killing Muslims at all.


Christ on a bloody bike. Revisionism personified. We kill a hundred thousand Iraqi children in the 90s with our impoverishing sanctions and about ten times more innocent civilians with our illegal invasion in the noughties, yet it's Saddam who's the Nazi. The same Saddam who had no WMDs, remember? Who exactly was it who told us all the lies, Teribus, old chum? We spend fourteen years in Afghanistan on the initial pretext of getting Al Qaeda out and succeed (as any bloody fool could have predicted) in driving them into bandit country just over the border in Pakistan, where they just wait for us to bugger off, which we will, before resuming control, and we call it "the war on terror". Your post is a demonising load of old bollocks, which saddens me all the more as I have absolutely no time for Saddam, his ilk, the Taliban or for Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, it seems you have no time for the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 May 14 - 06:18 PM

What is a shame is that people like you try to close down debate on our forum by the use of nasty, intimidating abuse against anyone who dares post something you do not want to be read.

Keith, I could well agree with the sentiment, if it were true. Do you really believe that Musket has any influence whatsoever on this debate? Do you believe I have? Or you? Do you really think that an obscure forum on folk and blues music has any effect on anything?

As Michael Winner nearly used to say. Calm down, it's only a forum...

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 08 May 14 - 02:56 AM

This is why I put what I did. Keith has form.

What is the point of just slipping in quotes? Where is the exploration of why they exist?

In this case, it would appear to be to demonise Islam rather than point out how a religion is being used as a front yet again. Keith's insistence that religion plays no part when both sides are Christian yet does when Muslim is abfuckingsurd.

Anyway. If Bridge is reading this. Did you notice he called me Comrade Musket? Hope for me yet eh ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 03:54 AM

Dave, that was not my point at all.
A BS forum on a folk site has zero significance outside the site, but I was referring to our site.

I posted a quote from an Islamic radical on a thread about Islamic radicalism.
Musket wanted discussion of it suppressed.

As I said, he used nasty, intimidating abuse.
Ordinary, decent people are dissuaded from participating by that.
I think the arrival of people like him and his methods are culpable for the decline in our forum.

I would be interested in your view on that.
I know that Musket is clever and funny, and I enjoy reading the banter between the two of you, but his vicious, bullying intimidation is a separate issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:15 AM

No Keith. I am not a bully.

If you had courage of your conviction, you would come out fighting, but what you type isn't debate. You stifle debate then accuse others of doing so. It's so bleeding obvious, only you can't see it.

You talk of suppression, then talk of my "arrival" in "our" website.

Two things to take into account. The last post you sent was the very first one, mine also. There is no previous and no long term membership badge. A first post by anyone is as valid as your umpteenth.

Now who's stifling debate?

You find friendly quotes on the internet and shout liar! at anyone who dismisses them.

Now who's stifling debate?

You call blatant homophobia by others "unfortunate" but seek to ridicule those who question it.

Now who's stifling debate?

You make comparisons of my seven years or so of posting with your own period in order to give credence to your arguments.

Now who's stifling debate?

You come out with the most outrageous comments that would silence a room through embarrassment and then complain when it is challenged.

Now who's stifling debate?

You call yourself decent.

Now who's taking the piss?







TC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:42 AM

I'd like to test the assertion that (impliedly many) of the kidnapped schoolgirls are Xtian. AFAIK the school that was primarily raided is an Islamic school and the pupils there were observant and in Islamic dress.   This I have from some Nigerian friends one of whom went to university not far from the school.

What MAY come out of this, when Boko Haram attack more Yoruba, is a tribal war. The majority (not all, but, I am told, a majority) of Boko Haram are Fulani. Keith will have a handle on the colonial history but AFAIK the three main tribes at the colonial time were Yoruba, Ibo, and Hausa. When rule was handed over on decolonialisation the Hausa got most of the plum jobs and power. The Fulani got, I think, the shitty end of the stick. Hence, perhaps, their search for a pathway to power - but none of which explains the sources of their funding.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:43 AM

"Christ on a bloody bike. Indeed Steve - OK then care to take me to task on any of the factual content of my post? I won't hold my breath, as both you and I know that were to enter that arena I would rip you to bits.

Revisionism personified. ??

1: "We kill a hundred thousand Iraqi children in the 90s with our impoverishing sanctions and about ten times more innocent civilians with our illegal invasion in the noughties, yet it's Saddam who's the Nazi."

Couple of points here Steve, lets start with a question:
"Exactly how did we kill a hundred thousand Iraqi children in the 90s?"

You mentioned sanctions, but as we all know now, those sanctions were totally ineffectual and as ruler of the country didn't Saddam have some part to play in this? I mean that during this period of what you emotively refer to as an era or "impoverishing sanctions" while Saddam could not import medicines and food which were permitted he did manage to:
- import 384 rocket motors;
- build 34 Presidential Palaces (All lavishly appointed);
- start up and run a WMD programme for VX agent;
- illegally export oil to the tune of billions of US$ each year.

Don't know about you Stevie but if blame was the game I'd say that under such circumstances then the buck stops firmly with Saddam - not the big bad west.

So we killed "ten times more" than a hundred thousand in the "noughties" did we Steve - PROVE IT - Iraqi records put the total number at ~150,000 - i.e. those buried, those admitted to hospital for treatment, death certificates, etc, etc. If you want a good rundown on the unlikelihood of there ever having been anything close to one million Iraqi dead then visit IraqBodyCount.org they have an extremely good critique of the batch sample estimates that claimed such ridiculous figures (Why ridiculous? Here is an example of deaths from a concentrated bombing campaign - between 1939 and 1945 over 12,000 aircraft dropped 1.3 million tons of bombs on Germany and that managed to kill 635,000 people - yet "rational" Steve Shaw thinks that the US with only 385 aircraft in the space of six months killed over a million - ludicrous - it doesn't even withstand even the most basic critical scrutiny)

As far as who killed who in Iraq:
Total death toll = ~150,000
Killed nation-wide by US/MNF/Iraqi Security Forces = ~33,000
Killed nation-wide by AQII/Ba'athist insurgents/Sectarian Militias/Foreign Jihadists/Criminal Gangs = ~117,000
In Southern Iraq total death toll = 3,344
Killed by British Forces = 124
Killed by rival Shia sectarian militias and criminal gangs = 3,220

The Ba'athist Party in Iraq Steve was formed in 1947 as a pan-Arabist national socialist party - The party embraced nationalist, racist and a populist paramilitary culture similar to the National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party, the term Nazi is German and stems from "Nationalsozialist". If you are simply too thick to read the history and see the parallels then too bad.

2: "The same Saddam who had no WMDs, remember?"

If you believe that the invasion in 2003 had anything to do with Saddam Hussein HAVING WMD then you were successfully duped by MSM. Perhaps you should have read what the likes of UNSCOM, Blair and Bush actually said as opposed to what the papers said they said. Perhaps you should have read the 34 points detailed in United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (Outlining the detail of the terms and conditions agreed at Safwan in March 1991 that Saddam Hussein refused to fully implement).


3: "Who exactly was it who told us all the lies, Teribus, old chum?"

WHAT LIES - OLD CHUM?? That Iraq MAY HAVE unaccounted for WMD? As stated by UNSCOM? As stated by Blair? As stated by George W. Bush. They BELIEVED that Saddam had WMD and Saddam himself admitted that he worked very hard and very deliberately to create precisely that impression - Hell even Dr. Hans Blix believed in the summer of 2004 while he was writing his book "Disarming Iraq" that Saddam had WMD

4: "We spend fourteen years in Afghanistan on the initial pretext of getting Al Qaeda out and succeed (as any bloody fool could have predicted) in driving them into bandit country just over the border in Pakistan, where they just wait for us to bugger off, which we will, before resuming control, and we call it "the war on terror".

Al-Qaeda and their Taleban hosts were driven out of Afghanistan back over the border into Pakistan (The birth place of both organisations) in 71 days in 2001.

Liked your rather fanciful take on the Taleban "resuming control" - Between November 1994 and October 2001 the Taleban backed to the hilt by Pakistan's Government, Army and Intelligence Services failed to defeat 35,000 men of the Northern Alliance. Since July 2013 the ANSF has been responsible for national security in Afghanistan, the Taleban to date have not beaten them once. Come January 2015 the Taleban will face a 354,000 strong ANSF made up of the same men they couldn't defeat between 1994 and 2001. Pakistan reliant on foreign aid and not wishing to upset the Chinese, or the Americans will do as they are told.

5: Rather than being "a demonising load of old bollocks" my post is based on extremely well documented fact, and while I am delighted to hear that you have "absolutely no time for Saddam, his ilk, the Taliban or for Al Qaeda" it would appear that you are fully prepared to stand on the sidelines wringing your hands and saying how terrible things are you are fully prepared to merely just let them carry on as normal. Fortunately, for the people of both Afghanistan and Iraq, neither the President of the United States of America or the Prime Minister of the UK were prepared to just stand by and watch. It seems that not only have you no time for the truth - you would appear not to be able to distinguish the truth if it jumped up and bit you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:12 AM

Musket, I have only reported lying when someone has unequivocally lied.
All the things you accuse me of are false.

Most ordinary, decent people would prefer not to be the subject of an attack on their character.
Most ordinary decent people do not like to be called "cunt" "bigot" "fuckwit" etc. and will tend to refrain from expressing opinions that may bring such abuse down on them.

Ordinary decent people would deal with expressed views they disapprove of by pointing out the flaws, not by vicious, intimidating verbal bullying of the other person.
That is what you and others have brought to our forum, and I believe it has a bearing on the dwindling number of contributors and threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:25 AM

Returning to the subject of the thread, Guardian today makes this report.
I post it because it provides up to date information on the impact of Islamic radicalism.
I hope that is permissible.

"The US president, Barack Obama, said the kidnappings and murders in Nigeria, as well as the war in Syria and other conflicts, showed man's "darkest impulses".

The latest insurgent attack in Nigeria targeted the town of Gamboru Ngala. Gunmen burned buildings and fired on civilians as they tried to flee. The Nigerian senator Ahmed Zanna put the death toll at 300, citing information provided by locals."

"A medical officer in the Cameroon army, which has reinforced security at the border, said it believed more than 200 were killed in town. "Some of the bodies were charred. It was horrific. People had their throats slit, others were shot," he said."

"Boko Haram is holding 276 girls after a raid on a school in Chibok on 15 April, and a further eight girls aged between eight and 15 taken in an overnight raid on a village on Monday, also in its stronghold in north-eastern Borno state."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/boko-haram-massacre-nigeria-gamboru-ngala


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:35 AM

I would be interested in your view on that.
I know that Musket is clever and funny, and I enjoy reading the banter between the two of you, but his vicious, bullying intimidation is a separate issue.


Thanks for asking. It is in your favour that you did ask rather than assume there is some sort of collusion between members as others do.

I don't find it intimidating. Abuse? Yes, but obvious and generic. Calling someone the type of names mentioned are the equivalent of A-Team violence. It looks like the real stuff but everyone gets up and walks away. I have been called all the same and worse and it has never put me off. Maybe it is me being thick skinned but it all washes over me or I give back as good as I get. The only time I felt there was real abuse towards me was when someone began to poke fun at a genuine aural disability my wife has. I trust the moderation team to know the difference between invective and real hurtful bullying.

I also think it is all getting rather silly. I know you have some good points to make, as does Jim, as does Musket, as does Steve. I have communicated with all of you both privately and publicly and know that you are all reasonable and reasoning people. I have argued against each one as well. I know I am not right on everything but I do hope that I have a balanced opinion on most things. In fact, I have got shouted at, not that that matters, for not coming down in favour of one of you on occasions. How about everyone just states their opinion, once, provides one counter argument for or against the opinions of others and then calls it a day? I have been as guilty as most of going on and on (and on and on and on). We all like the sounds of our own voices but let's give it a rest for a while, eh?

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:42 AM

Dave, you and I may not feel intimidated, but I think others are.
The abuse serves no other purpose than to dissuade people from expressing their views, so why condone it and why not condemn it?

Richard, it was always clear that some of the abducted children were Muslims, and I do not believe anyone has claimed or implied otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:44 AM

"vicious, intimidating verbal bullying of the other person."
Harassing, misrepresenting, openly lying and fillibusting are equally examp;es of verbal bullying.
I have no doubt that you are now going to indulge in one of these to tell use you have never been guilty of any of them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:50 AM

I got as far as unequivocally lied. You called a liar on many occasions and I wasn't lying, so not much point in reading any further.

If I called you a fuckwit, I apologise. I normally reserve that as a term of endearment, and I wished to insult you. As your method of debate only ever either entrenches your weird view of the world or rearranges your prejudices, insults are the only tool left in the box. Reason certainly doesn't work, as I unfortunately found out the first time you waded in on a discussion I was part of.



Dave. I enjoy shouting. That much is obvious. I will shout till early c20 views no longer form c21 society. Glad you agree it is abuse. I prefer counter abuse if I'm to get picky, and it isn't me, as you probably know from our own correspondence, but self satisfied idiots who think the world should fit in their petty sectarian pockets are going to bring me out shouting.

Each and every time.

By the way Keith. Keep up. It isn't Comrade Musket, it's dirty rotten stinking capitalist Musket. See Al & Bridge for details.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:53 AM

Sorry - that should have been directed at Dave and referred to Keith's behaviour on this forum.
I did not mention his constant attempts to manipulate discussion with constant claims of "thread drift" and attempts to invalidate the arguments of others because we don't live in Britain or haven't been members for long enough.
More lies eh?
When it comes to "verbal bullying" he is in 'world class', only his the Uriah Heep kind rather than the bluster that Musket indulges in
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:03 AM

so why condone it and why not condemn it?

Not condemning it is not the same as condoning it. I have done neither as it is not an issue for me. Other people can fight their own battles.

Jim, I am confused. You said

Harassing, misrepresenting, openly lying and fillibusting are equally examp;es of verbal bullying.
I have no doubt that you are now going to indulge in one of these to tell use you have never been guilty of any of them.


Followed by

Sorry - that should have been directed at Dave and referred to Keith's behaviour on this forum.

If it was directed at me are you saying that I am guilty of these things?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:11 AM

It is not an issue for me either Dave, but I will condemn it.
It is unpleasant, unnecessary and is likely to discourage participation and debate.

Musket, I called you a liar when you claimed to have heard on BBC of Christians in Nigeria attacking a Muslim school, killing children and feeding them to pigs.
Neither BBC nor any other agency has any such story reported, so you made it up.
Also, when you claimed to have downloaded a quote that Google could only find in your post, and you claimed it came from an organisation that does not exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:19 AM

It is unpleasant, unnecessary and is likely to discourage participation and debate.

Unpleasant? Personal opinion.
Unnecessary? Probably, but so is Morris Dancing.
Likely to discourage participation? Has anyone who really wants to join the debate been discouraged? I don't think so.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:21 AM

"Likely to discourage participation? Has anyone who really wants to join the debate been discouraged? I don't think so."
Personal opinion.
The forum is dying.
Fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:25 AM

That the use of obscene swear words is offensive is an opinion but a very widely held one.
I doubt the Mudcat people are different in that respect.
Many do not want to be Mudcat people anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:44 AM

Keith, but you seem to believe that Mudcat is 'dying' because of Musket's bad language? Well, sorry, but I do not think that is a widely held opinion. Do you not think that the constant outages, the slow responses and alternatives such as Facebook have more to do with it? If it is in fact 'dying' it is a very slow death and has little to do with what goes on below the line.

That the use of obscene swear words is offensive is an opinion but a very widely held one.

Far from the truth in many areas. Ever visited Glasgow? Or Dublin? Or Salford?

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:56 AM

The forum isn't dying, just your influence without question.

And that by the way is a healthy thing.

As I said, I have never lied. I sent a link to an archived intranet site once by mistake and you have thrown it in my face ever since. If ever I need to question whether I am being over harsh, that brings me back to reality.

Funny how my car radio is BBC, either 2 or 4. Presumably World at One like telling tales.

Funny how your "widely held" excuse, usually concerning swearing or opposition to gay marriage and other religious nonsense is rarely shared on this dying website.

Fuck shit bollocks arsehole vicar bum cunt


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:56 AM

That was not what I asked, Keith. I think we know that many or most or maybe all of the kidnapped girls are Muslim. I wanted to test the apparent assertion that a significant number were Xtian. AFAIK only some of the last 8 might have been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 14 - 06:58 AM

"If it was directed at me are you saying that I am guilty of these things?"
No Dave - I am not, and once again I owe you an apology - I came into this half cocked - still not good at multi-tasking.
My remarks were addressed to Keith's behaviour here - I misread your contribution.
Keith's last-man-standing behaviour had killed thread after thread - he is legendary for it.
He has been reported for the way he behaves and for a small instant, he actually manged to control it - now - like Arnie - he's back with a vengeance.
As for discouraging participation - I wouldn't like to be a Muslim in his presence - as an Anglo-Irishman, I have had a slight glimmer of how it must feel.
If he is right in his belief that this forum is dying - he is largely the cause of it; perhaps he might consider sending flowers to the funeral and ******* off to let us to mourn our dead.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:07 AM

No problem, Jim - As long as I know :-)

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:09 AM

Dave, if something is both unnecessary and offensive, it is not worth preserving.
If you look at recent threads about Mudcat, you will see that many people are repelled by the more abusive nature of posting in recent times.

Musket, I have never had any "influence" and have always represented a minority viewpoint here.
I just enjoy the debate, but people like you are spoiling it for everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:12 AM

Dave, if something is both unnecessary and offensive, it is not worth preserving.

Are we back on the Britannia 'nutters debate?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:13 AM

Richard.
"The Christian Association of Nigeria published a list on Sunday of 180 Christian girls – about two-thirds of the total 276 – among the missing."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/08/boko-haram-massacre-nigeria-gamboru-ngala


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 08 May 14 - 07:47 AM

Some background on Boko Haram from the NY Times:

Explaining Boko Haram, Nigeria's Islamist Insurgency


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:14 AM

BTW Musket, I never called you a liar over the intranet link.
It was the made up quote supposedly downloaded from the site of The British Council of Mosques.
It does not exist so you could not have given a link.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,McMusket
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:21 AM

And then he wonders...

Then he asks people to look upon him all sweet innocent and hurt.

Aw. Poor little bugger.

By the way, I didn't say you have influence. Clapton forbid that anyone other than your pet worm and Michael on his less coherent days takes you seriously.

Read what I type.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 09:49 AM

I am not hurt in the least.
Naughty names!

I object to the debates being spoiled.
Instead of challenging someone's view, you call them naughty names and pretend they have said things they have not.
It ruins it.
It turns people off.
If you are incapable of saying why you disagree, go away and think until you can.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 14 - 04:52 PM

Abduction of Girls an Act Not Even Al Qaeda Can Condone

By ADAM NOSSITER and DAVID D. KIRKPATRICKMAY 7, 2014

ABUJA, Nigeria — As word spread like wildfire on Twitter and Facebook that Nigerian militants were preparing to auction off more than 200 kidnapped schoolgirls in the name of Islam, a very different Internet network started quietly buzzing too.

"Such news is spread to taint the image of the Mujahedeen," wrote one dubious poster on a web forum used by Islamic militants whose administrator uses a picture of Osama bin Laden.

Boko Haram, the cultlike Nigerian group that carried out the kidnappings, was rejected long ago by mainstream Muslim scholars and Islamist parties around the world for its seemingly senseless cruelty and capricious violence against civilians. But this week its stunning abduction appeared too much even for fellow militants normally eager to condone terrorist acts against the West and its allies.

"The violence most of the African rebel groups practice makes Al Qaeda look like a bunch of schoolgirls," said Bronwyn Bruton, an Africa scholar at the Atlantic Council in Washington. "And Al Qaeda at this point is a brand — and pretty much only a brand — so you have to ask yourself how they are going to deal with the people who are doing things so hideous even the leaders of Al Qaeda are unwilling to condone them."

Boko Haram is in many ways an awkward ally for any of them. Its violence is broader and more casual than Al Qaeda or other jihadist groups. Indeed, its reputation for the mass murder of innocent civilians is strikingly inconsistent with a current push by Al Qaeda's leaders to avoid such deaths for fear of alienating potential supporters.


Whole article Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 May 14 - 05:50 PM

Yes Greg, they are currently the most extreme group, which is why they are being given most attention.
Why are other groups less extreme?
"a current push by Al Qaeda's leaders to avoid such deaths for fear of alienating potential supporters. That was the subject of the dispute that led to Al Qaeda's recent break with its former affiliate, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria."

What does that say about ISIS?

On this site, Israel tends to get more attention than much LESS extreme states.
Curious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 14 - 08:16 PM

Well, Teribus, owld lad, nice to see you putting in all that effort, but you have done nothing to demonstrate that you are anything other than a typical western revisionist ultra-right wing imperialist. Possibly with a bit of Christian evangelist thrown in for all I know. There are millions just like you in the US who have been similarly duped (hey, I don't even know whether that's where you live). I suppose you think men didn't land on the moon either. Not for one minute am I suggesting that Saddam was anything other than an evil, despotic bastard, and it saddens me that I have to keep on reprising that with eejits like you (who couldn't rip a bloody teddy bear to pieces, by the way, you insolent git). So Al-Qaeda killed 3000 in one attack, but we managed to kill "only" 150,000. Wow, that's all right then! And a hundred thousand Iraqi kids died in the 90s, all down to him, when we put the screws on, yet that didn't happen in the 80s when he was our big mate. Yeah, right! Nothing like a bad conscience, eh! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: LadyJean
Date: 08 May 14 - 11:23 PM

I knew a group of Iranian students in college. They were the nicest bunch of people! They were Muslims, but the girls dressed like everyone else, except that they favored bright colors. They didn't drink, but they could still party! I wonder what they're doing now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 09 May 14 - 03:04 AM

LadyJean - I too knew a group of Iranian students in college. They too were the nicest bunch of people! They too were Muslims, but I don't have to wonder what they are doing now - They were all imprisoned and killed by Khomeni and his Revolutionary Guards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 14 - 09:47 AM

Actually, most of the Iranians I knew at uni and later at the College of Law were blokes, and the MOST determined coxemen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 14 - 07:23 PM

Boko Haram and the Kidnapped Schoolgirls
By Ayaan Hirsi Ali
May 8, 2014 7:18 p.m. ET

"How to explain this phenomenon to baffled Westerners, who these days seem more eager to smear the critics of jihadism as "Islamophobes" than to stand up for women's most basic rights? Where are the Muslim college-student organizations denouncing Boko Haram? Where is the outrage during Friday prayers?

I am often told that the average Muslim wholeheartedly rejects the use of violence and terror, does not share the radicals' belief that a degenerate and corrupt Western culture needs to be replaced with an Islamic one, and abhors the denigration of women's most basic rights. Well, it is time for those peace-loving Muslims to do more, much more, to resist those in their midst who engage in this type of proselytizing before they proceed to the phase of holy war.

It is also time for Western liberals to wake up. If they choose to regard Boko Haram as an aberration, they do so at their peril. The kidnapping of these schoolgirls is not an isolated tragedy; their fate reflects a new wave of jihadism that extends far beyond Nigeria and poses a mortal threat to the rights of women and girls. If my pointing this out offends some people more than the odious acts of Boko Haram, then so be it."

The Wall Street Journal


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 14 - 08:10 PM

Whilst I similarly lament the absence of a central condemnation by Islam of what's going on in Nigeria (I suppose Islam has no Pope, but even having a Pope doesn't seem to help Catholicism to condemn in much of a hurry the rape of thousands of children or the removal of hundreds of Italian Jews to death camps), I demur strongly at your use of the word "jihad". Yes, I was very nasty there to Catholics, most of whom would want nothing to do with the disgusting activities of a minority of their clergy. Similarly, the vast majority of Muslims would want nothing to do with the actions of those thugs in Nigeria. So let's be reasonable and let's stop tarring anti-Islamic actions with an Islam brush. Raping children has nothing to do with mainstream Catholicism. I may be an atheist but I'm fair-minded enough to admit to that. In the same way, abducting little girls has nothing to do with mainstream Islam. So cut the "jihad" crap, right?   
.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 14 - 08:20 PM

"So cut the "jihad" crap, right?"

Tell that to the jihadis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 14 - 08:26 PM

Well, it is time for those peace-loving Muslims to do more, much more

You betcha, BooBad! Just so soon as peace-loving "Christians"[sic] resist, denounce and abjure the proselytizing and antics of the fundagelical"Christians"[sic] by way of an example.

These same "Christians"[sic] might also oppose the ongoing U.S. drone assassinations of civilians and the state of perpetual "pre-emptive"[sic] war the U.S. is engaged in.

It is also time for Western liberals to wake up. If they choose to regard Boko Haram as an aberration, they do so at their peril.

Now that's just the type of overblown, hysterical anti-Muslim bullshit we've come to expect from you, Boo.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is also a Fox News[sic] professional bloviator and lunatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 14 - 08:33 PM

But MOMMY the Christians do bad things too so we shouldn't criticize the Islamists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 14 - 08:33 PM

So let's be reasonable and let's stop tarring anti-Islamic actions with an Islam brush

BooBoo? Reasonable? That's a joke, right, Steve? Please tell me yiu meant it as a joke.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 14 - 08:39 PM

I said nothing about "Islamists" (whatever definition you are applying to that term today) BooBoo. Nor did I say anything about not criticising Boko Haram or defending them. Nor did I engage in the standard toddler defense you use to excuse Israel.

Do try to keep up, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 09 May 14 - 09:04 PM

"Here is a paragraph from chapter four of the Qur'an, as translated by the most formidable Islamist scholar of the 20th century, Syed Maududi:

"And forbidden to you are the wedded wives of other people, except those who have fallen in your hands (as prisoners of war): This is the Law of Allah." In his explanation, Maududi goes to great lengths to justify and explain the rightfulness of such rape of non-Muslim POWs.

There are references in the Hadith (sayings of Prophet Mohammed) where sex with enslaved non-Muslim women POWs is discussed in detail.

We Muslims have a choice.

We either develop the maturity to say, such Islamic injunctions do not apply anymore, or we can keep on driving fast-forward in reverse gear, and every time we hit an obstacle that appears in our blind spot, we can blame it on "Islamophobia".

Tarek Fatah: Muslims must denounce Nigerian kidnap outrage


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:35 AM

Greg, your link referred to ISIS as a group that did not disown the violence of Boko.
They are Jihadists, many from this country. Two British members were killed in Syria just this week.

Many are now deploring the delay in reacting to the kidnapping.
Boko have killed tens of thousands in recent years with no reaction at all outside Nigeria.
Just a few months ago they attacked a boys school and just killed all the boys.

I reported it on the Christian Persecution thread, the premise of which is that Christians are being persecuted to extinction in many places and no-one cares.
No-one seemed to care about that.

Greg, has any other religion spawned an international movement equivalent to Islamism, whose goal is the destruction of democracy and the imposition by force of Islamic rule and Sharia Law?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:39 AM

BBC February
"At least 29 students have been killed after suspected Boko Haram militants attacked a boarding school in north-east Nigeria.

The BBC's Will Ross in Lagos says the remote school in Yobe state was attacked overnight when students were in their dormitories.

All the victims were teenage boys and 11 others were seriously injured. Most of the school was burned to the ground.

Islamist militants have attacked dozens of schools in north-east Nigeria.

Last September, 40 students were killed at an agricultural college during another night-time raid.

Teachers at the school in Buni Yadi said the gunmen gathered the female students together before telling them to go away and get married and to abandon their education."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-26338041


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:04 AM

Any evidence of a link between lads from here going to fight in Syria and the kidnapping of girls in Nigeria?

Your whitewash brush of "Jihad" is rather appalling Keith.

My great uncle joined the international brigade and fought in Spain, his passage paid by a church group. Does that make him related to making homosexuality a crime in Uganda?

zzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:16 AM

Yes Musket.
The link is they are both Islamist groups whose members describe themselves as Jihadists.

Tell us again that story you made up about Christians attacking a school and feeding Muslim children to pigs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:17 AM

You said it happened in Nigeria.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:27 AM

Independent Yesterday
"Boko Haram is a militant Islamist group based in the northeast of Nigeria, north Cameroon and Niger.

The group's official name is Jama'atu Ahlis Sunna Lidda'awati wal-Jihad, which in Arabic translates as: "People Committed to the Propagation of the Prophet's Teachings and Jihad"."

International Business Times. February.
"Syria: ISIS Jihadis Strangle Girl to Death for Breaking Sharia [GRAPHIC IMAGES]"http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/syria-isis-jihadis-publically-strangle-girl-death-not-conforming-sharia-islam-graphic-images-1436502


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:53 AM

Look, all religions are evil, and Boko Haram and ISIS are cunts - but these "Islamists" are as much the enemy of less extreme Muslims as they are of the rest of the world. The conflation of this sort of Islamism with Islam in general makes dealing with this sort of Islamism much harder. Having said that it does seem to me that there is a lot wrong with Sharia law - as far as I know what it is - in general (some bits are good, like the attitude to interest) and in the way that even moderate Islam treats women as second-class. But one cannot begin to hope that moderate Islam will come to fit more comfortably with the world if one merely assumes that Boko Haram illuminates moderate Islam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 03:58 AM

these "Islamists" are as much the enemy of less extreme Muslims as they are of the rest of the world.
I agree, and also note that Jihadists in Syria and Iraq are fighting a purely inter-Muslim holy war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 06:57 AM

When are these morons going to come to terms with the fact that in the mann, these are not religious conflicts, but disputes over territory and political power, and atrocities are not confined to one side - all wars take place with claims of "God on our side"
"Many of the attacks by the anti-balaka involved shocking brutality: a Muslim nomadic cattle herder told Human Rights Watch she was forced to watch as anti-balaka fighters cut the throats of her three-year-old son, two boys, ages 10 and 14, and an adult relative – all the Muslim males in the cattle camp. A man tearfully described escaping from anti-balaka attackers, only to watch in horror from a hiding place as they proceeded to cut the throats of his two wives, his 10 children and a grandchild, as well as other Muslims they had captured.
A Muslim woman told Human Rights Watch that she was outside cooking at 5 a.m. when the anti-balaka came and attacked their home: "They began to cut my husband with their machetes on his side and his back, and cut his throat. After they killed him, they set our house on fire, and threw his body on the fire, together with my son's. They ordered my 13-year-old boy to come outside and lie down, and then cut him two times with a machete and killed him."
HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH

38,000 Muslim civilians were slaughtered by Christians in former Yugoslavia.
These are wars for territory and influence - religion is a flag some of them fly under, and, as in all wars, they are as bad as one another.
Syria is a disgusting example of what happens when nothing is done by the "civilised" nations (sic) - it was a war against Assad's atrocities (backed by UK and American support) and remains exactly the same - those now opposing Assad making up for Western inaction.
It is not surprising that Britain voted against intervention against their old ally and trading partner.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 07:11 AM

Parliament outvoted the government, even though all 3 parties were in favour of intervention, as were both US parties.
Only UKIP and the Tea Party and all Mudcat apart from us two were against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 08:05 AM

Jim, about your two examples of Christians persecuting Muslims.

Bosnia. The British Army defended the Muslims and brought peace.
Small cheer?

CAR.
After years of peaceful co-existence, Muslims seized power and began massacring Christians. What you report is the backlash which can not be defended but it was those massacres that caused the hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 10 May 14 - 08:17 AM

Funny way to say sorry keith...

After all, the feeding of bodies to pigs would, if it were Muslims doing it to Christians rather than the other way around, something you would be shouting from the rooftops...

Just because an account from an aid worker doesn't make The Daily M*ail doesn't mean you can breathe a sigh of relief for your precious church...

Perhaps when you stop calling me a liar for noting the account, (the truth of which I never put forward one way or another, I leave calling stories "truth" to you and your prejudices) you might get a more measured response than TC.

TC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 08:19 AM

"Parliament outvoted the government"
That's what I said - Britain refused to intervene.
Those opposing Assad at the present time, whatever we might think of their religion and politics, are in fact freedom fighters, ad it is a characteristic of ultra-rights like yourself to pass off freedom fighting as terrorism - its as old as Hereward the Wake.
Putting a war against a serial torturer and mass-murderer just about confirms your 'ultra-rightness'.
"all Mudcat apart from us two were against."
You persist in this lie - giving me the opportunity once more to point out that you, despite all your Uriah Heep hand-wringing for the murdered of Homs, not only opposed intervention ("we can't ber expected to fight everybody's wars" or some such garbage) , but you actually expressed support for Assad by apporoving of Britain having supplied armoured cars, tear gas, water cannon, sniper rifle bullets (which you mistook for rifles, but still condoned them) and other anti-personnel equipment - the last time we argued about it, that remained your position.
You topped that by defending the sale of chemicals which quite likely added to the chemical weapons he used on Syrian civilians.
Like it or not, you really fell out of the closet as a pro-Assadite on that occasion.
Back to the main point - Christians are just as capable of slaughtering those of other religions when it suits them; sometimes it has been actually about religion - on this occasion it is about political of disputed territories.
I used to have the old newspaper cutting reporting the Pope blessing the bombs being sent to kill the people of Abyssinia.
Funny old thing, religion!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 09:45 AM

Musket, You claimed to have heard BBC report Christians attacking a Muslim school in Nigeria, killing the children and feeding them to pigs.
There is no trace of such a story on BBC or any other news site, and no-one else has heard of any such atrocity because you made it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 09:51 AM

Jim, unlike you I did not think it sensible for Western troops to intervene in another Arab land.
Obama's proposed limited strikes over chemical weapons were only supported here by we two.
Britain's 3 parties, US 2 parties and Holland's party in France were with us, UKIP and the Teas with Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 09:57 AM

"Jim, unlike you I did not think it sensible for Western troops to intervene in another Arab land."
So that's why you proposed ssad be sold equipment to kill and suppress the Syrian people?
Please don't attempt to associate your open appeasement of human rights abuses to my opposition to it again.
Whatever I might be, you are a rightist turd.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 11:04 AM

BBC today.
"Mrs Obama, who was speaking ahead of Mother's Day in the US on Sunday, said the girls reminded her and her husband of their own daughters.

"What happened in Nigeria was not an isolated incident. It's a story we see every day as girls around the world risk their lives to pursue their ambitions," she said.

She cited the Pakistani schoolgirl and campaigner Malala Yousafzai, who was shot and wounded by the Taliban for speaking out for girls' education. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 11:39 AM

Describing the situation in Nigeria as a holy war is totally dishonest.
The present problems date back to it being granted Independence in 1960, exacerbated by the end of the Cold War - it is a dispute for territory and political control - not an Islamic holy war, as our resident Islamophobes claim.
Not to say that Islamists aren't involved or aren't committing atrocities - but it has nothing to do with being a Muslim.
Why do you turdules - especially those maggots who describe themselves 'Christian' but represent paganism at its worst, turn a human tragedy into an attack on someone else's religion?
Jim Carroll
Culturally, Nigeria is a multitribal system in which every tribe wants to excel or suppress the other, so they are not on the same level playgrounds. Every person in politics is regionalized and people are capitalizing on that. Once leadership is zoned in the country, one cannot expect to get the best, but Nigerians are trying to live with what they presently have. There are more than 300 different tribal groups in Nigeria, all of which belong to the political definition "Nigerian" but are distinct from one another in terms of cultural practices. Added to this are economic disparities among the various groups, as well as potential for conflict on religious grounds, especially between the long-established Muslim population and the rapidly growing Christian sector.
THE PRESENT NIGERIAN CONFLICT


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 11:52 AM

Boko Haram say they are fighting a Holy War.
Wall St. Journal 2 days ago.
But little attention has been paid to the group's(Boko Haram's) formal Arabic name: Jam'at Ahl as-Sunnah lid-da'wa wal-Jihad. That roughly translates as "The Fellowship of the People of the Tradition for Preaching and Holy War." That's a lot less catchy than Boko Haram but significantly more revealing about the group and its mission. Far from being an aberration among Islamist terror groups, as some observers suggest, Boko Haram in its goals and methods is in fact all too representative.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303701304579549603782621352


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 14 - 12:05 PM

From the Richard Dawkins Foundation:Innovating for a Secular World

"Ayaan [Hirsi Ali] is a fellow with the Future of Diplomacy Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at Harvard Kennedy School. She is also a visiting scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, currently researching the relationship between the West and Islam. Her willingness to speak out for the rights of women, along with her abandonment of the Muslim faith, continue to make her a target for violence by Islamic extremists. She lives with round-the-clock security.

A few weeks ago, Ayaan and I had a long conversation about her critics and about the increasingly pernicious meme of "Islamophobia"—which our inimitable friend Christopher Hitchens once dubbed "a word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 12:43 PM

"Boko Haram say they are fighting a Holy War."
Maybe - but this is a tiny and extremist part of a larger picture
You have consistently presented these conflicts as Holy Wars - they are not.
Muslims have been fighting in Syria in opposition to the Assad regime's despotism - thyey are prominent in doing so because the rest of the world couldn't give a toss.
The Muslims in Syria are freedom fighters, but your sick manipulation has made what is happening there a "Holy War".
Once again, you are leeching off the deaths of innocents to feed your bigotry.
The same with Nigeria - a conflict between disputing tribes which has been going on since at least 1960 - not a holy war, but a fight for political and territorial influence - nothing to do with religion.
By your sick logic, the war in Afghanistan is a Holy War between Muslims and Christians.
Is this the way your particular religion has brought you up to behave as a Christian?
I don't know any Christians whose religion resembles your twisted bigotry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 12:54 PM

The word, according to the Anglicans - but maybe they aren't your type of 'Christian.
Jim Carroll.
"According to a report by a high level Christian-Muslim taskforce comprising the World Council of Churches (WCC) and the Royal Jordanian Aal Al Bayt Institute (RABIIT), while the violence between Christians and Muslims in Nigeria is the worst between members of the two faiths since the Bosnian war of 1992-1995, the sectarian conflict is driven by poverty, inequality and injustice."
BEYOND RELIGIOUS TENSIONS


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:01 PM

"UNICEF condemns the decision to allow the public flogging of 17-year-old Bariya Ibrahim Magazu in the northern Nigerian State of Zamfara on Friday, as punishment for becoming pregnant outside of marriage.
Bariya, who cannot read or write, was apparently not aware of her right to appeal her sentence and was not provided with adequate legal counsel. Her case has provoked a torrent of criticism from within Nigeria and around the world - not only because the girl testified that her pregnancy resulted from rape, but because of the fundamental violation of human rights that flogging represents. Bariya was lashed with a cane 100 times on Friday."
Unicef Press Release 2010
.,,.,
Oh yes, of course, Jim. Nothing but tribal conflict tore that poor girl's buttocks to shreds. Nothing whatever, of course, to do with this occurring in the Islamic part Of N Nigeria where Sharia Law applies.

God, but you can be an obstinate hidebound know-it-all holier-than-thou fool when the fit comes on you...

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:19 PM

I doubt an interview with an aid worker becomes BBC editorial, but who am I to tell .

After all, according to Keith, I tell lies. So.. Where do we start.. Still got that court order out on you Keith?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:24 PM

"Oh yes, of course, Jim. Nothing but tribal conflict tore that poor girl's buttocks to shreds. "
As I said - and as you choose to ignore, there are extremists involved in all these conflicts - you are getting as good as Keith with your crocodile tears wept for beaten Children on the one hand, while ignoring the killing of three-year olds by Christians.
They are ugly, vicious wars carried out by thugs - of all denominations.
Good job it wasn't British soldier hacked to death by a Muslim nutter or we'd have needed Noah to pull us out of the deluge.
My poit is that whatever they might be, they are not Holy Wars, as your little volcano-squatting cabal would have them to be.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:25 PM

along with her abandonment of the Muslim faith

Gee, Boo- ya think that may be one of the reasons she's a Fox News Nutcase & says the extreme, hysterical, nonsensical things she does??

Like many a "former _______________" (drinker, smoker, Scientologist, whatever) she's simply intoleranty of anyopne who hasn't "seen the light".

Your knowledge of human nature is sorely lacking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:37 PM

But it wasn't 'extremism', for crying out loud, Jim; it was the action of the legal, democratically elected government, working within the teachings and precepts of the professed and established state religion. Isn't that just the sort of point you can never get into your hidebound ☠!

Oh, what's the use!...


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 May 14 - 01:52 PM


I doubt an interview with an aid worker becomes BBC editorial, but who am I to tell .

Such a story most certainly would.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 10 May 14 - 02:05 PM

"Your knowledge of human nature is sorely lacking."

Gee Greg I wonder who should I think would have more credibility when it comes to knowledge of matters Islam - someone who was once an adherent of the faith, renounced it and is now a fierce opponent of it where it comes to matters of women's rights and some of it's more violent aspects as practiced by Muslim extremists or some folk music enthusiast on an internet folk music forum......hmm, that's a tough one, let me give it some thought......NOT!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 02:10 PM

"But it wasn't 'extremism', "
I seem to remember six million reasons why not to trust "legally elected governments"
As for them working within the precepts of "the professed and established state religion" all religion is open to misinterpretation and misuse - does't make them Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or anyting - just extremism
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 14 - 02:24 PM

For the record Boko Harem came into existence in 2002 - Islam is how old exactly?
I hav no problem in describing this mob as extremist nutters - you ant your team are targetting Muslims.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 May 14 - 02:37 PM

"But it wasn't 'extremism', "
I seem to remember six million reasons why not to trust "legally elected governments" ...
.,,.
Well done, Jim: it was you who obeyed Godwin's Law and made this inevitable comparison... But 'extremism', however defined, carries an overtone of small fringe splinter groups. Totalitarianism in government is another thing entirely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 May 14 - 12:59 PM

Gee Greg I wonder who should I think would have more credibility

You missed the point entirely, Boo, or, more likely, you're simply ignoring it. Try re-reading 10 May 14 - 01:25 PM

when it comes to knowledge of matters Islam

We're not discussing "matters Islam", Boo - we're discussing extremists.
Not that would stop you tarring all Muslims with your usual Islamaphobic brush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 14 - 01:16 PM

"Well done, Jim: it was you who obeyed Godwin's Law and made this inevitable comparison.."
Ad it's you who consistently refuses to see the comparisons Mike
Blame the Muslims - blame the Jews - it's all the same foetid bigotry as far as I'm concerned, and in both cases, it kills people.
The difference appears to be that you choose to choose a 'special case' for one while indulging in bigotry against the other.
You appear to be able to live with that.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 11 May 14 - 01:25 PM

Nice eh?

A recent episode of the Hamas-affiliated television program Pioneers of Tomorrow featured a disturbing combination of talking bee mascot and a discussion of shooting Jews — all of them.

Hamas TV for kids: Let's shoot all the Jews!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 May 14 - 01:46 PM

Hey, Boo! Let's shoot all the Muslims, instead. Right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 14 - 02:56 PM

Be all that as it may, Jim: I still maintain that the use of the term 'extremist' of the actions and policies & established forensic systems of a legally constituted government, internationally recognised as such, is an emotive and tendentious dislocation of the language. And would urge you to recollect the steps thought necessary to moderate the activities of the one you cited in reply last time I made this point. And then appreciate how ill-considered comparisons & analogies are liable to turn around and bite you on the bum. Or do you really think similar reactions would be appropriate to curb the activities of the adultress-stoners and rape-victim caners? Or if not, then what is your point precisely?

~M~


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 14 - 09:22 AM

"Not that would stop you tarring all Muslims with your usual Islamaphobic brush."

Islamophobia - "a word created by fascists, and used by cowards, to manipulate morons."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 14 - 09:23 AM

Previous GUEST post was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 14 - 09:42 AM

to manipulate morons

Well, Boo, seems to have manipulated YOU alright.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 14 - 09:45 AM

"is an emotive and tendentious dislocation of the language"
You appear to be attempting to censor the way I put forward my point of view
I'm not being abusive - I don't believe I am being offensive - I am merely making comparisons I believe to be valid.
I find it offensive that anybody should undermine an entire ethic or cultural group by lumping them in with the extremists
I find it offensive that you, and others refuse to respond to questions of what you feel should happen to these people who make you uncomfortable.
I have yet to ask you not to express the opinions you have, nor would I dream of doing so
Comparisons with Nazism have come from within Israel, as have the use of the term, "Apartheid State".
You put down my objection to Keith's "cultural implant" accusation as "a misunderstanding on my part" - it seems you are happy to defend extreme language if it fortifies your own opinions.
You have persistently sneered at my concern for racism and my efforts to have it toned down on this forum and you have shown yourself quite capable of abuse in response to things you don't agree with.
Perhaps when you begin to show some awareness of the effects irrational xenophobia such as yours has on the lives of people who, in the main, appear to be peaceable and law-abiding, maybe you might have some claim of consideration for your own sensitivities.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 14 - 09:58 AM

"Well, Boo, seems to have manipulated YOU alright."

Yeah right Greg - you're the one throwing the word around....doh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 May 14 - 10:05 AM

Does anyone condone that Hamas TV clip?
Is it ever right to brainwash kids with such hatred?
Is it not a crime against the children targeted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 14 - 10:18 AM

This is what passes for entertainment on Gaza's state run TV channel. I can only imagine the reaction if the tables were turned and Israel's state TV were to promote such treatment of Palestinians to young children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:23 PM

Can't engage well with all this. Largely because I can seldom get into Mudcat at all at the times I'm free to try. However, this from Jim is, to me, the only honest way to see these things:

When are these morons going to come to terms with the fact that in the main, these are not religious conflicts, but disputes over territory and political power, and atrocities are not confined to one side - all wars take place with claims of "God on our side"

Nobody ever fought a war for God. Wars are never about something as trivial as that. It behoves us all to cast aside our favourite theories and tendentious notions and look for the real reasons wars are waged. Jim nails it here. The people who kidnapped those poor girls may well be hiding under some assumed, perverted definition of Islam, but they are, most decidedly, not Islamists. Nothing in Islam permits or would condone the atrocity they are committing. They are thugs, and let's not glorify them by calling them something else, especially when to do so would suit rather well our own political or religious predilections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:41 PM

Aye, brainwashing kids. Good job kids aren't allowed in churches till they are adults and can decide for themselves whether to feel guilty for being themselves. We don't allow brainwashing here do we? We don't have an Education Secretary allowing cults to set up schools and teach nonsense alongside science.

zzzzzzz

I notice on the news a right wing skinhead is standing outside mosques in Bradford shouting at people going in and trying to force bibles into their hands.

A bit of a bugger this Islamic radicalism. Not like decent normal Christians eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 14 - 06:51 PM

"Hey, Boo! Let's shoot all the Muslims, instead. Right?"

In view of all the stupid posts that have appeared on Mudcat I would have to say that this one is right up there with the stupidest - congratulations Greg - you're the champ!


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 14 - 07:11 PM

In view of all the stupid posts that have appeared on Mudcat I would have to say that this one is right up there with the stupidest - congratulations Greg - you're the champ! M

Sorry, Boo- can't acept the honor, since it was in response to YOUR post "lets shoot all the Jews".

Or have you forgotten that one already, Champ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 14 - 08:03 PM

Sublimely nice post, Musket. Now will you please agree with me that it was a complete arse that a Liverpool team containing six English blokes plus one Welsh bloke were pipped by a petrochemical team containing one English player (the bloody goalie fer chrissake) which has been bought with 640 million quid...?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 12 May 14 - 08:37 PM

So Greg did my post of an example of Islamist hate against Jews, on a thread entitled "Islamic radicalism", offend your delicate sensibilities because you are in denial of the issue or is it because you are unable to understand the distinction between Islam and Islamism? Or is it because the target of the hate is Jews? In any case I will be posting many more examples of Islamic radicalism so if you don't want your delicate sensibilities offended I am giving you fair warning. In the meantime chew on this from my Muslim friend, Tarek Fatah:

This is Hawa Abdo This is her new name. We don't know her original name because her enslavers have forcible converted her to Islam and given her a new name.

She is just one of the nearly 300 Christian girls abducted and then enslaved as sex slaves for the jihadi goons of Boko Haram in Nigeria.

Next time an Islamist strokes his beard and flaunts the claim, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, this child will come to mind.

Disgraceful conduct not just by the Boko Haramis, but the entire Muslim world and specially its leadership and also those hiding behind the burka of 'moderate Muslim' label.

Tarek Fatah


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 12 May 14 - 08:50 PM

Until such time as I see the real Imams speak against atrocities, I will be left to conclude they agree. After all, it's just talk, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 May 14 - 10:14 PM

Take it up with the Pope or the heads of the various Protestant denominations, Guest. Let me know how you make out.

In the meantime chew on this

Hey, Boo- in the meantime, kiss my arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 02:00 AM

Musket, if you watched that clip you would not compare it to what churches mosques and temples do.
Does anyone condone it?

Jim,
When are these morons going to come to terms with the fact that in the main, these are not religious conflicts, but disputes over territory and political power,

Why the gratuitously abusive "moron" insult?
Radical Islam is engaged in the most brutal indiscriminate killings to bring down democracy and impose Islamic rule under the Sharia.

So it is about territory, power AND religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:02 AM

And tea with the vicar isn't?

The Archbishop of Canterbury stated the other week that if the church supported equality for gay people, he would lose his influence in Uganda.

And we can't have that, can we?



After all, Christianity is a hierarchical concept, whereas Islam isn't. The post by guest# above demonstrates the general ignorance of people towards other cultures. Just about every Imam in The UK deplores the abuse of their creed by criminals but even if that made enough interest for newspapers, it still wouldn't influence the terrorists because Islam has no equivalent of the Archbishop, the Pope or the Noodly one.

Liverpool on the other hand tend to have hard luck stories and cobwebs in their trophy cabinet. Did you know Mr Shaw, that Sheffield Wednesday picked up silverware this season? Just saying like...


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:17 AM

"Why the gratuitously abusive "moron" insult?"
When the moron I am addressing stops behaving like one and stops insulting our intelligence
Until such time, it isn't gratuitous - it is merely returning tit for tat.
"Radical Islam is engaged in the most brutal indiscriminate killings"
Not it is not - peop;e throughout the world are engaging in various fights for political and territorial power under the banner of Islam - just as we in the West have engaged in the same type of conflicts "for God, King and country" or "with God on our side"....
That there are religious nutters seeking to make capital out of this is undoubted, but we have our own pseudo-nutters, like yourself, who are engaging in your own Crusades to prove that 'those who kick with the other foot' or who come from 'somewhere else', or 'don't live like us' are an evil force and a threat to 'our way of life'.
You have had a summing up of what is happening, in Nigeria, for instance, from Christians on the ground there; the fact that you have chosen to ignore what they, and many others, have to say about these conflicts, is par for your own so-called Christian course.
Holy wars per se exist only in the heads of religious or pseudo-religious fanatics - "It's all in the mind, you know", as the Famous Eccles used to say.
The religious hate against Jews is echoed by similar hate by and against all religions somewhere or other in the world - you are one of those hate merchants, with your appalling "cultural implants".
Take your fanaticism and hatred somewhere else and let us live in peace.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:55 AM

Any religious radicalism is hateful. I watched the News last night and felt sad to see the young Nigerian girls at a school in the North. They were wearing silly gingham veils wrapped round their heads and shoulders, in that heat. I've seen such lovely African brightly-coloured clothes on girls elsewhere, but the fundamentalists insist these lassies must cover every inch of themselves. Sad and twisted ideas.
Then, far worse, an item about female genital mutilation in Egypt. Muslims there almost all insist on this evil procedure for girls between 11 and 13. They euphemistically call it 'circumcision' but that barely begins to describe what is done. The item concerned deaths from infection and kidney failure. A chap spoke to camera saying that all women are lustful and must be 'circumcised' to stop them 'running after men'. A women declared her daughters would be 'done' when the time came. Where is this justified in any religious text? It makes me feel quite sick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 04:48 AM

I do not believe that even that Nazis pushed such hatred at small children.
That clip represents something uniquely appalling.
Very you children being taught that killing Jews, "all of them" is a laudable ambition for a young child.

The Archbishop of Canterbury stated the other week that if the church supported equality for gay people, he would lose his influence in Uganda.
No he didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:18 AM

"I do not believe that even that Nazis pushed such hatred at small children."
Don't be so ******* stupid - the Nazis - they portrayed all Jews and Gypsies, men, women and children, as genetically degenerate and gassed them - it doesn't come more hateful than that.
If you care to find modern equivalents of how Muslims are portrayed, take a look at some of the sites you've supported in the pat - Muslim Watch, for instance.
The BNP and their predecessors, who deliberately targeted and attempted to infiltrate schools with their foul propaganda isn't too bad a British comparison of such hatred 0- not forgetting, of course, Eunuch Poewll's 'Rivers of Blood' speech (and the support it got.
The facilitating of the Sabra/Shatila massacre by the Israelis (and your support for that obscenity by describing it as merely "seeking out the enemy") falls well within a comparison.
Race and cultural hatred breeds an inhumanity that prompts these appalling statements, and pretending it they are confined to one single culture, religion or race is part of that humanity.
What kind of hate-pills are you one?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:28 AM

Have you watched the clip?
What is your view?

(And why the lie that I have supported any site?
Trying to discredit again, but not what I actually say.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:39 AM

The Nazis killed Jews, but it was never openly discussed, and certainly never put to children as a good and fun thing to do.

In this respect, Hamas out-Nazis the Nazis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:48 AM

Until such time as I see the real Imams speak against atrocities, I will be left to conclude they agree. After all, it's just talk, right?

Hmm. Pius XII oversaw the removal of hundreds of Italian Jews to death camps and the expediting of the escape of Nazi war criminals to South America, and there's even talk of maybe making him a saint. Not much "speaking against" there, was there, and that was just the tip of a hundreds-of-years-old antisemitic iceberg.

Good to watch, though, Liverpool, eh, Musket?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:56 AM

You supports Muslim Watch's list of Mulim "atrocities" without qualification, demanding that we prove they were wrong
What is happening in Nigeria is the work of a group of fanatics.
Nazi atrocities were perpetraed by a Government who were voted into office
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 06:27 AM

Not true Jim.
I distrusted the claims and took the trouble to check a sample of them.
I honestly was unable to find a single false claim, AND NEITHER COULD YOU OR ANYONE ELSE!

Now, did the Nazis ever put propaganda to very young children (5-6) that killing Jews ("all of them") is good and fun?
What is your opinion of the Hamas clip?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 06:52 AM

I repeat.

The Archbishop of Canterbury said that if his church supported gay marriage, he would lose influence in Uganda.

You can't change facts by denying them Keith.

If his church was about love thy neighbour, he'd put people above his own size of club.

Even his own predecessor said his comments were unfortunate. He back pedalled slightly in his article in yesterday's Independent, but not enough to upset the dangerous religious cranks propping up disgraceful governments.

Christianist radicalism anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:10 AM

Musket, here is the actual quote from the Telegaraph to whom he gave the interview.
"In an interview with The Telegraph, the Most Rev Justin Welby says that the Church had probably caused "great harm" to homosexuals in the past — but there was not always a "huge amount" that could be done now to rectify the situation.
Although indicating that he was sympathetic to calls for the Church to publicly honour gay relationships, the Archbishop says that it is "impossible" for some followers in Africa to support homosexuality. In the interview, the leader of the Anglican Church, which has 77 million followers globally, speaks movingly of the persecution faced by Christians in parts of the world. He indicates that the Church must not take a step that would cut off these groups, most of them in the third world, however much this angers parts of society in Britain"


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:18 AM

Over the past few weeks, The Telegraph has been given unprecedented access to the Archbishop after his first year in office. In the interview, he speaks in detail about the dilemma he is facing over gay marriage — and the influence of recent visits he has made to Africa over the issue.
"We are struggling with the reality that there are different groups around the place that the Church can do — or has done — great harm to," the Archbishop says. "You look at some of the gay, lesbian, LGBT groups in this country and around the world — Africa included, actually — and their experience of abuse, hatred, all kinds of things." But he says: "We must both respond to what we've done in the past and listen to those voices extremely carefully. Listen with love and compassion and sorrow. And do what is possible to be done, which is not always a huge amount."
The Archbishop adds: "At the same time there are other groups in many parts of the world who are the victims of oppression and poverty, who we also have to listen to, and who find that issue an almost impossible one to deal with.
"How do you hold those two things [in balance] and do what is right and just by all? And not only by one group that you prefer and that is easier to deal with? That's not acceptable." In the interview, the Archbishop speaks of his pain at travelling to South Sudan in the aftermath of a massacre of dozens of Christians. He speaks of crying with his wife while watching a mass burial in Bor. On Thursday, the town was the scene of another atrocity when at least 58 people were killed in an attack on a UN base.
However, even in the midst of the horrific situation witnessed by the Archbishop, the local religious leaders asked about homosexuality – making clear that if blessings of gay marriage were allowed to proceed then they would not accept his help in future.
"I do believe passionately that unity is something we have to maintain," the Archbishop said privately soon afterwards. "I may be wrong, but I also believe that to take a step that means that people who desperately need our help — and who we can help — can't take it, feel in their own culture that it is impossible to be helped by us, is something that we can't easily do."
In previous public statements, he appeared to indicate that if the Church did bless gay marriages this could lead to Christians being targeted in Africa.
However, the Archbishop now says that his previous position was misinterpreted, and denies that he is effectively being blackmailed. "What I said is that I have been in places where that has been the reason given for attacking people," he says. "Now, as I said then — and this is where there was misinterpretation — that doesn't mean that you don't do certain things. That would just be giving in to that kind of terror.
"It would be moral blackmail. You can't say, 'We're not going to do X, which we think is right, because it will cause trouble'. That's ridiculous."


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:26 AM

"Now, did the Nazis ever put propaganda to very young children (5-6) that killing Jews ("all of them") is good and fun?"
Even worse - they put forward the argument that the Jews were a threat to the German people and the vast majority of the people accepted that argument and turned their backs while they did what they did.
Many of the German people knew of the existence of the extermination centres and did nothing.
Youngsters flocked to join the Hitler youth and anti-Semitism was ann inbuilt feature of German education
"No single target of nazification took higher priority than Germany's young. By 1937, 97% of all teachers belonged to the National Socialist Teachers' Union. Every member of this union had to submit an ancestry table in triplicate with official documents of proof. Courses and textbooks in Nazi schools reflected the aims of Hitler. Of the topics that teachers were required to treat, the most important was racial theory and, by extention, the Jewish problem. In The National Socialist Essence of Education, a German educator wrote that mathematics was "Aryan spiritual property; .. an expression of the nordic fighting spirit, of the nordic struggle for the supremacy of the world..."[1] An example of racial propaganda in a math problem is the following: "The Jews are aliens in Germany--in 1933 there were 66,060,000 inhabitants in the German Reich, of whom 499,682 were Jews. What is the per cent of aliens?"[2]"   
PRE-WAR GERMAN EDUCATION
This wasn't a backward, Third-World African country fighting starvation-class poverty amid battles for territorial and political dominance, It was one of the strongest and most advanced nation in he world.
How dare you compare as being worse the behavior of a group of sick fanatics in the process of manipulating people with that of a super-power fighting for world dominance
Sick moron
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:29 AM

Watch the clip and give your view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:40 AM

Where is this justified in any religious text?

BINGO! So maybe this ISN'T about Islam after all, eh, but a cultural norm??


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 07:52 AM

Islamic radicalism transcends cultures.
Its operates in Asia, Middle East, Africa, Europe,......
The common factor is terror for the purpose of destroying democracy and imposing Islamic rule and the Sharia by force.
Take away the religion, and what is left?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 14 - 08:32 AM

You've got that exactly backwards, FW - not surprising, of course, for someone who has his head up his arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 08:40 AM

So, allowing for paraphrasing, I did read it rather than dream about it after all.

I repeat. The Archbishop would rather appease homophobic thugs than gave empathy with decent people.

TC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 09:57 AM

No he didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:06 AM

Oh... Is that my third lie then Keith?

Add it to your tally eh?

TC


By the way, you should have said "wouldn't" not "didn't" if you are replying to my previous post TC.





VTC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 10:10 AM

VTC, quote the quote and there can be no dispute.
He did not say what you accuse him of saying.

I gave you the actual quote.
Ask Officer Dibble TC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:03 PM

Quote which quote? The original article, the article he wrote the other day in a different newspaper? The guarded apology on PM Reports? You gave an extract, minus any context as usual.

Or the many articles by decent people who were appalled at his weasel worded patronising excuses for putting power and influence over any moral stance.

He's supposed to be someone that gullible shallow people look to for moral guidance for crying out loud. Saying he wants to accept gay people as equals is far cry from declaring that they are, and that is in his power. Rewrite the fucking bible if necessary. About time the evil disgusting bits were deleted anyway if fools insist on using it as a weapon.



ETC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:07 PM

"Take it up with the Pope or the heads of the various Protestant denominations, Guest. Let me know how you make out."

No better, Greg. But it still doesn't address The Silence of the Imams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:14 PM

"No better, Greg. But it still doesn't address The Silence of the Imams."
All churches will attempt to cover their arses when it comes to abuses within their own religions - you don't have to look further than the current child abuse or Magdalene Laundries to find a couple on our own doorsteps
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:22 PM

That is so-so in terms of accuracy, Jim. Please see the link.

Imams who have spoken against terrorism within Islam.

That said, the fact someone else does it too makes it neither more nor less right or wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:28 PM

Musket, I gave the actual, original quote you referred to.
If you want more context, Google the text and see it all.(Telegraph links do not work.)
You said the more recent Independent quote was a backpeddle, but I can provide that too if you wish.

If you produced the actual quote there could be no dispute, but clearly the truth is not good enough for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:31 PM

Will no-one express a view on the Hamas clip?
Will anyone even admit to seeing it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:44 PM

The truth is what he said. He can't support all people being equal in case he loses members and influence in countries where governments, aided and abetted by his church, persecute their people.

It's simple enough.

Even simple enough for his own predecessor to distance himself from it.

If he has any shame, any moral conviction whatsoever, he should say that everybody has a right to be married and all marriage has the same value, and those who say a God is agin it are abusing the concept of God in the first place.

But he won't. He says nice things to gay people in the same way I say nice things to my dog.

Insignificant little hypocrite. No need to disestablish the church, it is marginalising itself without the help of rational people.

Why worry about Islamic radicals when even one of the least radical Christian cults can't bring itself to see others as equals? Islamic terrorists may have guerrilla tactics to further their cause, but CofE have votes in the upper house. Politicians go around saying this is a Christian country. Fucking scary or what?

At least his predecessor got it right. A post Christian country. You can't ignore your heritage and inheritance but as Clement Atlee said, you don't need the mumbo jumbo.


TC


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 May 14 - 12:55 PM

Back to your trash can TC.

Any comment on the Hamas clip?
Any comment on the terrified girls forced to convert to Islam?
Does that not suggest a religious dimension?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,#
Date: 13 May 14 - 01:04 PM

Of course, too, Muslims are not a monolithic/united group.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 01:48 PM

"Any comment on the Hamas clip?"
The source for this report is a film clip put up on Utube put up by The Middle East Media Research Institute, a Zionist group founded by an Israeli ex-Security officer.   
MIDDLE EAST MEDIA RESEARCH INSTITUTE
What reports there are, are based on that clip
Virtually all the press reports on it are carried by extremist outlets such as Washington Free Beacon, Bare Naked Islam, Sistah Tolja, The daily Caller, The Raw Story, Uncovering Sharia.... by and large, the world press has ignored it, with the notable exception of The Guardian, which carries only an account of someone condemning it - no substantiation of its being genuine.
Its almost certainly a fake.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 14 - 01:56 PM

So, Jim, the Hamas charter is a fake?


And the quote from the Qu'ran is a fake?


And nothing else you don't want to hear is a fake?


I will assume that you answered three times in the affirmative, so you don't need to respond here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 14 - 01:58 PM

Sorry, that should be


And ANYTHING else that you don't want to hear is a fake?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 02:27 PM

We've been through interpretations and out-of-context misinterpretations of the Quran - the Bible - and any holy book you care to name.
I'm suggesting that the film was fake - do you have any evidence of its authenticity, other than the extremist sources that covered it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 14 - 02:34 PM

Feel free to find your own Arabic translator and provide us with a "different" transcript.

You have NEVER proved that any of the "quotes" or claims YOU have posted were true- so how can you demand that we prove it? Are you insisting on a different set of standards for what you post than you will accept from those you disagree with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 02:49 PM

We can assume that you have no way of ascertaining that the programme was real then
The report is five days old - perhaps you can explain why the world press chose to ignore it then - where was the good ol' pro-Islam Daily mail when you needed it?
Come on Brucie - this type of stunt is hyped out regularly and quite often swooped on by your crowd of fanatics - where is your authentication that it is the real thing?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 14 - 02:54 PM

Jim,

HERE is the Arabic ( in the video)- check it out yourself.


http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=11384


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 14 - 02:58 PM

And here is part of the Hamas Charter.

"Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? "And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper." Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: "The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow." (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)
"


So, by their OWN words they renounce peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 14 - 03:01 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/07/world/middleeast/israeli-official-points-to-incitements-by-palestinians.html?_r=0


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 May 14 - 04:05 PM

Palestine Media watch - an Israeli research unit
Still no authenticate souece for the film


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 May 14 - 05:41 PM

Its OK Jim, BBruce is just having another bout of serial postarrhoea. 'This too, shall pass' - of course there's some dispute whether the phrase originated with Persian Sufi poets or the ancient Hebrews......


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 14 May 14 - 01:41 AM

1:   "Just about every Imam in The UK deplores the abuse of their creed by criminals but even if that made enough interest for newspapers, it still wouldn't influence the terrorists because Islam has no equivalent of the Archbishop, the Pope or the Noodly one."

Now that is odd Musket. I haven't heard of one single fatwa being issued by ANY Imam against these criminals {Boko Haram} who quote the Qur'an in justification for their murders, abductions, rapes and selling of children into slavery. Perhaps you have?

2: " The BNP and their predecessors, who deliberately targeted and attempted to infiltrate schools with their foul propaganda isn't too bad a British comparison of such hatred"

Any substantive evidence to back this up or is it just more shit that you have made up?

Enoch Powell's speech?

" For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country. They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. On top of this, they now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by Act of Parliament; a law which cannot, and is not intended to, operate to protect them or redress their grievances, is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions"

Many would say, and many could argue, that that is exactly what has happened.

" Powell recounted a conversation with one of his constituents, a middle-aged working man, a few weeks earlier. Powell said that the man told him: "If I had the money to go, I wouldn't stay in this country… I have three children, all of them been through grammar school and two of them married now, with family. I shan't be satisfied till I have seen them all settled overseas."

A sentiment now commonly felt and practiced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 May 14 - 02:06 AM

Why bring a Tory / Unionist politician into it?

Powell was a committed Christian, to use his own words, but what his unfortunate " rivers of blood" has to do with anything is beyond me. Almost every Muslim in this country is as British as me and was born here.

I'll ask the Imam on our hospital chaplaincy team why he hasn't issued a fatwa shall I ?

It's possibly because he is law abiding and fatwas are inflammatory statements if used willy nilly or used to with violence in mind. Do you even know what a fatwa is? Most impressionable young British Muslims going to Syria are being urged by their mosques as it is.

zzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 14 - 02:40 AM

"Why bring a Tory / Unionist politician into it? "
Powell was an extremist who was even too extreme for his own Party - anything he had to say had to be measured by that fact.
The Pakistani communities in Britain were surveyed last year and found to be, of all immigrants to Britain, the most prepared to settle in Britain and the most ready to be identified as being British   
MUSLIM INTEGRATION INTO BRITAIN
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 14 May 14 - 05:42 AM

No issue with examining Powell Jim. Other than a plaque outside a local hospital commemorating his laying of the foundation stone when a health minister , he has no influence outside of far right thugs and their apologists, who misinterpret him anyway.

The interesting thing about this thread is that before anyone tries to have a serious debate about what few here, me included, could begin to understand, look at the OP. The thread was set up to goad respectable people. It's full of "not the good Muslims who do as they are told but the other bastards" rhetoric.

Rather appalling really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:29 AM

So, Jim,

We can now ignore all your posts, as none of them are from truly neutral sources,just Pro-Palestinian propaganda.

Greg,

You are STILL out of duct-tape? Maybe you need to move up the chain to a larger animal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:39 AM

"this type of stunt is hyped out regularly and quite often swooped on by your crowd of fanatics - where is your authentication that it is the real thing?
Jim Carroll


YOU continue to judge others by what YOU do.


I gave the link to the VIDEO- GET YOUR OWN TRANSCRIPTION of the Arabic, and show us that it is not what is on the site. Otherwise, YOU are making an accusation without any basis.

Just make sure it is a NEUTRAL source, and not one of your Anti-Israeli propaganda sites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:46 AM

Jim, would that Hamas clip be shocking if it is genuine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:49 AM

Here is the same claim from Der Spiegel.
Reputable enough?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/wipe-out-the-jews-anti-semitic-hate-speech-in-the-name-of-islam-a-553724.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:51 AM

ANYTHING that Jim disagrees with is "propaganda"-

Anything that he wants to be true is by definition so.


Just ask him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 14 - 07:57 AM

Jim, you asked why daily mail had not picked it up.
Fox News did. Here is the same clip.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/05/09/terror-tv-for-tots-hamas-show-has-child-vowing-to-shoot-jews/


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 May 14 - 08:04 AM

The same clip in The Spectator.
It must be genuine Jim.
Care to comment?
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/douglas-murray/2014/05/hamas-tv-teaches-children-to-kill-all-jews/


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 14 - 08:11 AM

Are the actions of Boko Haram in accordance with Islamic Sharia?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 May 14 - 08:35 AM

I can find not commentary there, bobad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 14 - 08:53 AM

It's a video Richard, do you not see it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 14 May 14 - 09:01 AM

Is murder of your children in accordance with the bible?

zzzzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 14 - 09:17 AM

So tell us about those Christians murdering their children in accordance with the Bible - I can't seem to find any commentary on that.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 14 May 14 - 10:36 AM

I wouldn't know. I'm not a Christian. A bit like those who rattle on about Islam as if they know The Holy Q'ran.

Another TC.

zzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 14 May 14 - 11:06 AM

"A bit like those who