BS: Islamic radicalism . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:36 AM

" If there was a "sense of endemic fear" in Muslim communities, it was partly created by Fiyaz Mughal himself."

In short he deliberately spread misleading information - exactly as Yasser Arafat's Uncle did in Palestine in 1921 to foment riots and attacks on the Jewish community in Jerusalem and in other parts of the territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 09:14 AM

"Doing a fair bit of 'rejecting & ignoring' of your own"
I have rejected nothing Mike - no presented facts anyway - your irrational xenophobia doesn't count as fact, just irrational xenophobia.
I do not ignore the murder of Rigby - I do reject your cynically emotive use of the man's death to back up your hatred.
His death is one and the same as that of the householder who was kicked to death and set on fir by a bunch of racist thugs - you fail to comment on that - or any of the other deaths and racist attacks that have taken place and are continuing.
"your constant 'lip-service' cliché right back to you in your teeth!"
I don't go in for lip service - I condemn any form of terrorism - I realise it would be (once more) a waste of time my requesting that you qualify your extremely dishonest statement with an example.
I object to people like you using the acts of criminals to condemn and entire religion and community - you may not have the bottle to come out with it as blatantly as Keith, but you describe his blanket attacks as 'common sense' or some such approval.
These cultural generalisations are in no way different than those used by the Nazis to exterminate Jews
It is not me who should be ashamed of myself - you really need to take a long-hard look at your own position.
I ask again - what do you propose to do about 'the enemy within' as you have painted them?
Jim Carroll
Don't suppose you could spare a few of your crockodile tears for any of these?
RACIST MURDERS
ISLAMOPHOBIC INCIDENTS
United Kingdom[edit]
The English Defence League organises demonstrations against Islamism, but has been criticised for targeting Muslims in general.
As of early 2006, a video surfaced showing British soldiers beating Iraqi children on a compound.[58] In March 2006, Jamia Masjid mosque in Preston was attacked by gangs of white youths using brick and concrete block. The youths damaged a number of cars outside the mosque and stabbed a 16 year-old Muslim teenager.[59] On July 6, 2009, the Glasgow branch of Islamic Relief was badly damaged by a fire which police said was started deliberately, and which members of the Muslim community of Scotland allege was Islamophobic.[60]
In 2005, The Guardian commissioned an ICM poll which indicated an increase in anti-Muslim incidents, particularly after the London bombings in July 2005.[61][62] Another survey of Muslims, this by the Open Society Institute, found that of those polled 32% believed they had suffered religious discrimination at airports, and 80% said they had experienced Islamophobia.[63][64] In July 2005, a Muslim man, Kamal Raza Butt, was beaten to death outside a corner shop in Nottingham by a gang of youths who shouted anti-Islamic abuse at him.[65]
On the 26 August 2007 fans of the English football club Newcastle United directed anti-Muslim chants at Egyptian Middlesbrough F.C. striker Mido. An FA investigation was launched[66] He revealed his anger at The FA's investigation, believing that they would make no difference to any future abuse.[67] Two men were eventually arrested over the chanting and were due to appear at Teesside Magistrates Court.[68]
In January 2010, a report from the University of Exeter's European Muslim research centre noted that the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes has increased, ranging from "death threats and murder to persistent low-level assaults, such as spitting and name-calling," for which the media and politicians have been blamed with fueling anti-Muslim hatred. The Islamophobic incidents it described include: "Neil Lewington, a violent extremist nationalist convicted in July 2009 of a bomb plot; Terence Gavan, a violent extremist nationalist convicted in January 2010 of manufacturing nail bombs and other explosives, firearms and weapons; a gang attack in November 2009 on Muslim students at City University; the murder in September 2009 of Muslim pensioner, Ikram Syed ul-Haq; a serious assault in August 2007 on the Imam at London Central Mosque; and an arson attack in June 2009 on Greenwich Islamic Centre."[69][70] Other Islamophobic incidents mentioned in the report include "Yasir, a young Moroccan," being "nearly killed while waiting to take a bus from Willesden to Regent's Park in London" and "left in a coma for three months"; "Mohammed Kohelee," a "caretaker who suffered burns to his body while trying to prevent an arson attack against Greenwich Mosque"; "the murder" of "Tooting pensioner Ekram Haque" who "was brutally beaten to death in front of his three year old granddaughter" by a "race-hate" gang; and "police officers" being injured "during an English Defence League (EDL) march in Stoke."[71]
An academic paper by Katy Sian published in the journal South Asian Popular Culture in 2011 explored the question of how "forced conversion narratives" arose around the Sikh diaspora in the United Kingdom.[72] Sian, who reports that claims of conversion through courtship on campuses are widespread in the UK, says that rather than relying on actual evidence they primarily rest on the word of "a friend of a friend" or on personal anecdote. According to Sian, the narrative is similar to accusations of "white slavery" lodged against the Jewish community and foreigners to the UK and the US, with the former having ties to anti-semitism that mirror the Islamophobia betrayed by the modern narrative. Sian expanded on these views in 2013's Mistaken Identities, Forced Conversions, and Postcolonial Formations.[73]
In February 2011, a social club in North Wales was burned down in an arson attack. This came just weeks after Flintshire Muslim Cultural Society announced plans to open a mosque there.[74]
A number of attacks on Muslim buildings followed the May 2013 murder of Lee Rigby.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 07:23 AM

Doing a fair bit of 'rejecting & ignoring' of your own, it seems to me Jim. I can't see where expressing fear of what, on present showing, are likely to be the long-term effects of the present situation, is "vilifying" anybody. I do denounce certain sections of the demographic under consideration for their dangerous interpretations of the teachings of their Prophet; which they nevertheless claim are the correct ones [what did they exclaim as they hacked poor Mr Rigby to slivers?], and which are liable to have the same baleful effects on others as they have already had on eg Rigby himself, the WTC, the journalists murdered over the Muhamed cartoons, Theo van Gogh, the Beslan school massacre victims [cont p 94]... But that's terror on my part, not 'vilification' of anybody that I can see.

Meanwhile you and your lot go on defending their goings-on, just vaguely denouncing all these enormities as nothing but regrettable but only-to-be-expected results of our way of thinking;perhaps to be just a little bit deplored, to be sure, but all our own silly fault after all --

your constant 'lip-service' cliché right back to you in your teeth!

Aren't you ashamed? Of course you're not. Much too busy sleepwalking into disaster for your grandchildren.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 06:58 AM

"I have the T shirt"
Where can I get one? - rather win that title than the Eurovision
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 04:14 AM

The "enemy within" tag from your own prime minister isn't nice. I have the T shirt...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:39 AM

Should read "existence of racism in Britain" of course, before he typo opportunists try to score points.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 03:01 AM

You have been given enough links to show the existence of Britain to choke a donkey.
The British police identified themselves as being riddled with institutional racism following the Lawrence murder, and commentators, from within and outside the police have said little has changed since then.
You have been given up-to-date facts and figures on Britain today showing that racism is not just a long-term part of British society, but that it is on the rise - two survey carried out over the last couple of years have returned the fact that between a quarter and a third of those questioned have admitted to and openly expressed racist views.
It is nice to find myself able to agree with Bruce for once when he points out that British racism is not confined to Blacks or Asians, but includes long-term and ongoing attacks on Jews, though I don't accept his 'special case' for them.
Racism is a problem in Britain, it always has been and it continues to be; there is something ludicrous about someone who had displayed more racism than any other member of this forum claiming that there is no racism in Britain
You have been given enough documented information to show, beyond argument that racism has been considered a possible cause of Muslim extremism and is likely to backfire in the form of dissent in Britain, yet you have attempted to prohibit discussion on anti-Muslim prejudice on a thread about Islamic radicalism.
You and Mike have both made a point of vilifying the Muslim people as a whole as a risk - neither of you have attempted to come up with a solution of your own and have rejected or ignored the suggestions of others.
Terry the Toy Trooper comes the nearest to offering one when he harks back to the good ol' Powell days of voluntary or forced repatriation, (with assisted passage, of course!) - it that what you pair of clowns want - if not, what?
It appears that you are happy to go along with Mm. Thatcher's 'catch-all' of making Britain's Muslim population "The Enemy Within".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jun 14 - 12:58 AM

BBC 2013
"Experts give their opinions on how society and the authorities should react to this incident and what could be done to combat radicalisation in the UK."

"Racism" does not get a mention.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22683452

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 03:26 PM

You are STILL pushing Tell Mama!
Their "survey" has been totally discredited.
It was all bollocks.
See what Andrew Gilligan said in my earlier post.
You knew that because we have been through it before.

There is no objective evidence to suggest racism against Muslims is a significant issue.
Evidence that it is not, is how attractive UK is to Muslims.
See my earlier post.

Jim, you can put up people expressing their opinion that our media is prejudiced, but it is just their opinion and I am sure it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:25 PM

Without denigrating the issue, I do recall CST being criticised for not verifying data by ONS when they highlighted an anti Semitic property attack which, it turned out, was a vandalism attack affecting a number of properties at random on a street in North London. The house owned by a Jewish couple had been included in the statistics. (ONS annual report circa 2002 ish.)

There is no public indifference to anti semitism but a hell of a lot of indifference to Islamaphobia. Anti semitism is normally carried out by disaffected thugs led by right wing bigots feeding them hatred, whereas Islamaphobia is fed to them by a media looking for stories and an ignorant older generation brought up on accepted casual racism.

We even have one member on here who says that Bernard Manning was a good comedian and made him laugh..

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 02:06 PM

From YOUR BBC clickey ( Tell Mama)

632 against ALL Moslems?

"The comparison with anti-Semitism is frequently mentioned when discussing this work - the Jewish community is much smaller in the UK, but has for years recorded anti-Semitic attacks.

The Tell Mama project wants to carry the same weight as the Community Safety Trust (CST), which has for almost 30 years been recording incidents of anti-Semitism in the UK.

The CST published its annual statistics in February and recorded 640 anti-Semitic incidents across the country in 2012, compared to 608 incidents in 2011.

Of these there were 69 'violent anti-Semitic assaults' in 2012, including two classified as extreme violence; 53 incidents of damage and desecration of Jewish property; 467 incidents of abusive behaviour, including verbal abuse, anti-Semitic graffiti and one-off cases of hate mail; 39 direct anti-Semitic threats; and 12 cases of mass-mailed anti-Semitic leaflets or emails.
"

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 01:33 PM

BBC

May 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 01:26 PM

Good ol' Musket, clueless as ever - talk about thick.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:58 PM

Independent Again is also Tell Mama.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM

Jim, Tell Mama's claims (your June link) have been discredited.

Andrew Gilligan in Telegraph.

"Ten months ago, in the paper, I revealed how Tell Mama, a project purporting to measure anti-Muslim attacks, had exaggerated the scale and nature of attacks against Muslims both before and after the murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich. I later revealed that Tell Mama's public funding had not been renewed after government officials raised similar concerns about its methods.
Tell Mama's founder, Fiyaz Mughal, said that there had been a "wave of attacks" against Muslims, with 193 "Islamophobic incidents" reported to it in the first five days (to 27 May), rising to 212 by June 1, the eve of publication of our first article.
"I do not see an end to this cycle of violence", said Mughal, describing it as "unprecedented". Tell Mama's Twitter feed claimed that a Muslim woman had been "knocked unconscious" in Bolton, a claim recycled in the Guardian. "The scale of the backlash is astounding," Mughal told the BBC. "There has been a massive spike in anti-Muslim prejudice. A sense of endemic fear has gripped Muslim communities." According to Mughal, the unprecedented spike proved British society's "underlying Islamophobia." These claims, and Tell Mama's figures, were unquestioningly repeated across the media.
What Tell Mama and Mughal did not tell us at the time, however, was that 57 per cent of its 212 "incidents" took place only online, mainly offensive postings on Twitter and Facebook. They did not say that a further 16 per cent of the 212 reports had not been verified. They forgot to mention that not all the online abuse even originated in Britain.
Contrary to the group's claim of an unending "cycle of violence" and a "wave of attacks", only 17 of the 212 incidents, 8 per cent, involved the physical targeting of people and there were no attacks on anyone serious enough to require medical treatment. The supposed Bolton attack never happened. There were a further 13 attacks on Islamic buildings, four of them serious.
Far from being "unprecedented," the spike in attacks was in fact "slightly less" than after 7/7, according to the assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Cressida Dick. Far from being unending, the post-Woolwich spike in anti-Muslim incidents fell to pre-Rigby levels within days. If there was a "sense of endemic fear" in Muslim communities, it was partly created by Fiyaz Mughal himself."

"Last week he was comprehensively defeated on all points. The PCC ruled that our reporting that Mughal exaggerated the prevalence of anti-Muslim attacks, that he had not had his funding renewed, and that DCLG officials had expressed concern about his methods, was "not inaccurate."
Perhaps it helped that we could point out that the day after our first piece, Mughal himself admitted to the BBC that the number of physical attacks was in fact "quite small;" that within two months, he had quietly dropped his own estimate of the number of "Islamophobic incidents" post-Rigby from 193 in the first five days to "more than 120" in the first week; and that the DCLG, by his own admission, had demanded an "independent review" of his data. Various police officers and DCLG officials, asked by Mughal to support his case against us, conspicuously declined to do so."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100266808/tell-mama-did-exaggerate-anti-muslim-attacks-pcc-rejects-all-fiyaz-mughals-complaints-against-us/

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:39 PM

What's all this bollocks about wine etc?

Poo Bad isn't happy with condemning terrorists with warped principles. He wants us to think they have no imagined reason either.

Gilding the Lilly to say the least.

Considering approx 60% of Muslims see a caliphate as apostasy, I may as well point and laugh now rather than feign to point out how ... Oh fuck it.

Ha Ha Ha!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 12:33 PM

INDEPENDENT

INDEPENDENT AGAIN

MUSLIM-EYE-VIEW

GUARDIAN

June 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:47 AM

There is no significant racism against Muslims in Britain.
Hundreds of thousands have come to stay and bring their families.
The communities are thriving and growing.

On the French coast thousands of people, mostly Muslim, have been existing for months, exposed to the elements, waiting for a chance to risk their lives clinging to truck axles just to jump the que to enter Britain.
Friends and family already here tell them what a wonderful place it is.
Where else in the world does that happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 11:32 AM

There now appears to be enough evidence to indicate that British Radicalism has its roots in a backlash to generations of racisim (see Keith's diversive sideshow thread).
Those researching the events have suggested that one way of combating its effects is to mend a few fences with the Muslim communities rather than demonise the Muslim people as a whole
I'm sure this won't cut too much ice with the hardened volcano squatters
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 14 - 10:36 AM

Mohammed Jamjoom of CNN reports on how ISIS is recruiting Western youth. Expert says "treat ISIS as a deadly virus that causes Genocide."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdgzCbrPqzQ#t=144

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 10:29 AM

What Islamists always forget - and want you to forget: that restoring the ancient caliphate means embracing wine, cultural pluralism and gay courtiers. An Arab secularist explains...

Khaled Diab : A successful caliphate in six simple steps

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 10:07 AM

Interesting report, bobad.

It also notes that 1/3 of Americans (all, presumably, of voting age) cannot name the current Vice President of the United States.

Taken together, these figures suggest the average mentality of the human race.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:52 AM

According to Pew's data, 78 percent of Afghan Muslims say they support laws condemning to death anyone who gives up Islam. In both Egypt and Pakistan, 64 percent report holding this view. This is also the majority view among Muslims in Malaysia, Jordan and the Palestinian territories.

The Washington Post

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:36 AM

Ah, yes, thank you. I remember now. Don't think any conclusion ever reached. Anyhow, there hasn't been anything about it anywhere I have seen for many years.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:16 AM

Bob was working at Cambridge library on the Madden broadside collection (about two years before he left for the States) when he discovered a handwritten poem, which he had identified by the library staff as possibly an unpublished piece by Donne.
The poem was a matter of debate in the quality press (especially the Sunday Times, I seem to remember) which revolved around whether Donne was the author or not.
Whenever the debate died down, a letter would appear by Bob, prodding it back to life again
I thing it went on for about a year - can't remember if there ever was a conclusion to it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:04 AM

4.04 "Anyhow Jim: I dont propose to argue any further with you, because it is pointless..."

4.23 "Respect!"

It seems to take 19 mins for the tablets to kick in.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:23 AM

Glad you agree, Jim.   Respect!

Regret I know nothing about that; it had quite passed me by. Any info you can give me as to where I might catch up on it? I am of course much interested both in Bob & in Donne.

Best

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:17 AM

Agreed
Were you ever able to follow up Bob's discovery of the unpublished Donne poem?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 04:04 AM

Anyhow, Jim: I don't propose to argue any further with you, because it is pointless, taking on board the fact of where we both start in our views of one another. You see me as a racist bigot; which in fact I am not. I perceive you as a foolishly doctrinaire mind-made-up-don't-confuse-with-facts ideologue; which you are probably not either.

So I see no point pursuing this nerve-racking but fruitless feud any further. Let's just leave it there, with mutual recollections of a valued acquaintance. And maybe some respect for one-another's contributions in the folk·music field, if nothing else. Which, on this forum, if you look back, is, as they say, where we came in [an image I always like as redolent of the old continuous performances they used to run in cinemas in my long-ago youth].

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:48 AM

Bob was also the person who introduced us to Harry Cox -- I used to give him lifts [he couldn't drive] over to Norfolk to work on Harry's collection of broadsides -- I remember one afternoon when Bob & my wife Valerie were sitting at the table sorting broadsides while I sat by the fire talking to Harry. You will find that several of the tracks on Harry's Bonny Labouring Boy collection are attrib'd "Collected by Bob Thomson & Michael Grosvenor Myer"; & I published, under our joint names, an interview with Harry in Folk Review, Feb 1973.

More drift. Sorry. Just thought you might be interested in background info on someone you obviously highly regard, Bob.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:39 AM

You may be interested, Jim, to know that, when Bob Thomson made history by being the first person ever to be accepted by Cambridge Univ to read for a PhD without having any earlier academic qualifications whatever, I was one of the Masters of Arts required who sponsored him for such acceptance, and also introduced him to some others necessary, as I was so impressed by his incomparable knowledge of the broadside tradition. He used often to visit our home in Cambridge to chat about folk &c. I think I met him thru Roy Palmer, whom I met because he was folk critic of The Teacher newspaper of which my wife was Literary Editor at the same time as I was folk critic of the Times Ed Supp. Thus do networks happen. Haven't heard much of him since he went to Florida; tho my cousin Valerie who lives in Madison once wrote to say she had met him at a function, and he mentioned, she tells me, having had a folk friend in Cambridge, and named me [not sure how the subj arose], and was amazed when she exclaimed, "Small world - he's my 1st cousin".

This just a drift, Jim; not meant to prove anything; just a mutual acquaintance in Bob.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:19 AM

I suppose you thought the 7/7 atrocities were something to make "jokes" about?

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:12 AM

My work comes to an end this week and I am having a reception on Friday for the staff, all of whom have new posts to go to.

I wrote references for those who needed them, including my appointments secretary.

As he is a British Pakistani, should I edit the reference to congratulate him for not buggering me or embarrassing me by being arrested for grooming? After all, he does come from Rochdale....

Ask Michael if there is room for you all in his Anderson shelter eh? You know it makes sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:01 AM

"Can't quite make out what you mean by this"
Simple enough Mike - Keith has been hiding behind invented non-existent statements by Jack Straw.... et al - because of their claimed expertise and experience
You have now joined him in his Islamophobic campaign, putting up the same people - yet, when what they actually said is put up, your response is "they would say that, wouldn't they"
You really can't have it both ways - they are either experts whose word is to be relied on, or they are not to be trusted.
Academic as far as their opinions anyway - they were a figment of Keith's imagination - any shame here should be yours for going along with such a clumsy and disgusting campaign aimed at demonising an entire racial/cultural group - but as you say - I don't expect you are.   
"I expect Jim is going to denounce that as a racist remark..."
I really do know a racist when I see one - Keith is one, you are a bigot who defends racism.
For the record - I find all football equally boring.
Are you going to deal with the points I have made about culture?
I've given up on the idea that you might want to discuss Britain, and the West's role in encouraging groups of Islamic fundamentalists for their own interests
I hope you are keeping a close eye on your ward before he gets himself into even hotter water and has to open up yet another Islamophobic thread to extract himself - two at the same time are more than enough to handle - he has never done too well with one.
"[I am being serious]"
I was not, nay more than I believe you are when you fly into one of your somewhat embarrassing baby-talking hissy-fits   
It was a flippant remark aimed at your own behaviour here, nothing more.
I owe much my of deeper involvement in folk music to a mutual friend and Cambridge graduate, Bob Thomson - someone who I have the deepest respect for.
You on the other hand.....
Please stop trying to smear me with your and Keith's own racist and cultural bigotry - your really are a unique pair - at least I've never come across such vitriolic hatred elsewhere from adults.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:04 PM

"when I observe the behaviour of some of those"

,..,

Can you not recognise this as analogous to the sort of remark on which racism is based, Jim? [I am being serious] ---

"I have nothing against Blacks-Asians-Jews-Welshmen-Irishmen-Chinese-Japanese (cont p 94), but when I look at the way some of them carry on..."

Surprised at you. Genuinely. You should be ashamed of such an observation --

-- but I don't expect you are.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 03:55 PM

"you appear to be saying that you are free to accept the bits that suit your own racism and reject everything that doesn't"
.,,.

Can't quite make out what you mean by this. If you mean I have only selected extracts, you should note that I carefully gave a URL in case you wanted to check the full passages from which I had selected.

If that isn't what the above odd gnomic utterance was supposed to mean, then what in hell's name was?

~M~

Not quite sure why I'm bothering to ask, as I have long stopped giving a winged act-of-procreation what J Carroll thinks. But it fills the time, as the S Korea/Algeria match was so bloody boring that I have given up watching....

ooopppss -- I expect Jim is going to denounce that as a racist remark...

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 03:51 PM

I've often envied those with a formal higher education, but when I observe the behaviour of some of those who were lucky to have received one - thanks, but no thanks
What have you been told about mixing the cooking sherry with the pills Mike?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 03:36 PM

... or, as "educated", should perhaps render that as

"CHILDISHLY ILL-EDUCATED PERSONAGE OF MERSEYSIDE SEAPORT EXTRACTION"?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 03:08 PM

Like to 'punch her in the throat', eh? Well, there's a really impressive argument that's settled her intellectual hash, right enough!
.,,.
"What a team eh - an educated Alf Garnett..."

SCOUSE GIT!

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:49 PM

Keith - the "over-representation " was done and dusted before it started
As was pointed out on day one - if it had been a cultural thing it would have affected the entire Muslim population of Britain - not a few communities and a handful of criminals.
Without your quotes - all is meaningless
Your gofer has obviously done his best in trying to trawl up statements by your "experts" and has returned zilch.
Attacks on Muslims nothing to do with Islamism or radicalism - my, my - more "thread-drift, always a sign of desperation - having painted yourself into another corner, "all for England, thread-drift and Saint George".
Please feel free to open up another thread - it will be an ideal opportunity to say what I have to say twice.
Must go - Casualty calls!
Your friend is probably busy learning his lines:
"A fine mess you have got me into Keithie...."
A classic pair of prats, eh wot?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:29 PM

Alibhai-Brown, like the Imam just quoted and all the others, said that there was an over-representation and that their culture was to blame.

I would not know about the culture bit, but I see no reason to doubt them.

It is nothing to do with religion or Islamism so I will not discuss it here.
If you insist on continuing and refuse to use pm, I will start a thread for us so no-one else has to read your shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:26 PM

"Oh, Mandy Rice-Davies, for crying out loud! Of course they did -"
Keith cited these people as his witnesses and you have just put them up on his behalf
Now you appear to be saying that you are free to accept the bits that suit your own racism and reject everything that doesn't.
"Jim, they all acknowledged the over-representation, which was the only point I was making."
It wasn't, for a start - they all said that there was no evidence to link underage sex with either race or culture
In the end, it came to the behaviour of a handful of "testosterone fizzing young men" out of a population of a million and a half - such was the overwhelming evidence of cultural over-representation.
Anyway - your point was that "all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" in no way tied up with your unproven "over-representation" claim - it was simply a blatant attack on the entire British Pakistani population.
"Do you think them racist liars?"
You insist on hiding behind statements that have never been made and which you have never produced, as if they were real - show us your willie Keith - it's an invitation with no time limit.
Maybe we should reiterate the qualifications of some of your experts.
Anne Cryer (not Fryer - pay attention that boy at the back)
Renowned for her demand that only people with a command of English should be eligible for entry into Britain
We would never have had an Empire, any not be facing the problems we are today if such conditions ahe been generally applied - the British were renowned for speaking more loudly when foreigners didn't understand them - we are not the world's greatest linguists, you might say.
Her comments on a tiny minority of Asian men not respecting white women could just as well be referring to a large proportion the indigenous population in Britain who not only show no respect for either men or women from other races and colours, but have little or no respect for women from their own culture - and are renowned for same.
That the Muslim communities would not tolerate such behaviour is something in their favour - surely?
Lord Ahmed.
Narrowly escaped prison by using his political clout for having killed a pedestrian while using his mobile phone.
He later made his name for threatening to assemble a thousand Muslims to invade Westminster if the vote in the House of Lords didn't go his way.

Alibhai-Brown
Had she said anything resembling what you claim she said, she might - just have commanded some respect, if for no other reason that her ability to get up your fellow conservatives' noses:
"Mr Fabricant said he said he would never appear on a discussion programme with Ms Alibhai-Brown as he would "either end up with a brain haemorrhage or by punching her in the throat."
"I could never appear on a discussion prog with @y_alibhai I would either end up with a brain haemorrhage or by punching her in the throat"
She certain has a great deal going for her, but being used as a weapon to denigrate the Muslim people is not one of them
MULTICULTURALISM
You people should know all this - it's been pointed out often enough.
C'mon lads - you can do better than this - such stuff are the best editions of "Have I Got News For You" made of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 12:45 PM

The Independent.

When it comes to sex, Alyas Karmani is a plain-speaking man. For a Muslim imam he is breathtakingly so. "Oral sex and anal sex are taboo in the British Pakistani community," he announces matter-of-fact way over gosht palak in his favourite curry-house just up the hill from Bradford University. "Sex is seen as only for procreation and only in the missionary position. More so if your spouse is from abroad."

He is addressing the question of whether a disproportionate number of British Asian men are involved in grooming underage girls for sex. He thinks the answer is "Yes" – which is also very plain-speaking on a subject around which the British policing, political, academic and social work establishment dances with over-sensitive diplomacy.

Yet Imam Karmani is no maverick. As well as being an imam, he is a psychologist with more than 20 years of practical experience in youth and community work. He is a former adviser to the Department for Education on youth empowerment and a one-time head of race equality for the Welsh Assembly and is now co-director of Street, a project whose name stands for Strategy to Reach, Empower and Educate Teenagers.

One of its key projects is running courses to change the attitude of young British Pakistanis which, Alyas Karmani believes, underlie the cultural assumptions which have led a number of Asians to become involved in the on-street grooming of schoolgirls for sex. Eight men of Pakistani heritage, and an Afghan, were were convicted at Liverpool Crown Court this week of offences including four rapes, 11 charges of conspiracy to engage children in sexual activity and six of trafficking children for sexual exploitation.

"Many British Pakistani men live in two worlds," he begins. "The first is encompassed by family, business, mosque. It is a socially conservative culture where there is no toleration of sex outside of marriage, and little emphasis on sexual gratification."

Many are emotionally browbeaten into preserving their family honour by marrying a cousin from their family's village in north-west Kashmir, the part of Pakistan from which the forefathers of Bradford's Asian community originally migrated.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 12:26 PM

Akenaton: "This attitude prevails in every thread, not just with Jim, but with the whole gang of supposed lefties....they are not really lefties you know, just slightly deluded kids with a media view on life and how things aught to be.....they never allow reality to intrude and truth or facts are merely a distraction."

BRAVO!!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 11:46 AM

All said that the behaviour of this small band of criminals could in no way be laid at the door of any ethnic or religious community - this has been the view of everybody involved, including the police, judiciary and particularly the researchers who surveyed the Muslim communities and produced a report of their findings - that there was no indication that the crimes were a cultural issue

Oh, Mandy Rice-Davies, for crying out loud! Of course they did -- scared of the fatuous likes of you, for some reason, I suppose.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 11:42 AM

Try googling, Jim. You will find lots of reports like that from which the following are extracts"-

~M~

theweek.co.uk/politics/8707/muslims-back-jack-straw-pakistani-rape-gangs

Jack Straw is not looking quite as lonely as he was last Friday when he made the controversial statement that there was a "specific problem" involving British men of Pakistani descent grooming young white girls for sex because they think they are "easy meat".
Straw told the BBC: "These young men... act like any other young men, they're fizzing and popping with testosterone, they want some outlet for that, but Pakistani heritage girls are off-limits and they are expected to marry a Pakistani girl from Pakistan, typically."So they then seek other avenues and they see these young women, white girls who are vulnerable, some of them in care... who they think are easy meat."But Straw is now receiving support, not least from members of the Asian community.Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation youth group, said: "These young men do not see white
 girls as equal, as valuable, of high moral standing as they see their
 own daughters, and their own sisters, and I think that's wrong. It's a form of racism that's abhorrent in a civilised society.""I first raised this two or three years ago and I got a lot of stick within the community from people who said I was doing the work of the BNP and stigmatising them."
The feminist Muslim journalist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown has also backed
 Straw. Writing in the Independent about the Derby gang she says: "The criminals feel they did no wrong. These girls to them are trash, asking to be wasted – unlike their own women, who must be kept from the disorderly world out there
Earlier, Ann Cryer, former Labour MP for Keighley, West Yorkshire, who campaigns for women's rights, said Straw should be commended for bringing up a problem which, she claimed, Muslim MPs were not prepared to confront. Said Cryer: "The vast majority of young Asian men are fine, but there's a minority who do not behave properly towards white women and sweeping it under the carpet will only make matters worse. If these Asian men behaved in the same way to young Muslim girls they'd end up in very hot water in their community."

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

Jim, they all acknowledged the over-representation, which was the only point I was making.
They all put the cause down to culture, which effects all.

I expressed no opinion about the cause, but believe them.
Why would anyone not?

Do you think them ignorant of their own culture?
Do you think them racist liars?


Is there one other post of mine that even suggests what you are accusing, either in that thread, or in all my years of posting before or since?
If not, does it not strongly suggest that you might have taken that one post the wrong way?

In any case, no-one else in the world, never mind this forum, shares your obsession with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 11:01 AM

"Jack Straw, Ann Fryer, Alibhai Brown, Mohammed Sidiqui,"
None of whom made anything resembling the statement Keith has persistently claimed since his monumental foot-in-mouth - unless you are ably to produce such a statement,,, he hasn't?
All warned of the dangers of using such conclusions to promote racial and cultural hatred, yet this is exactly what Keith has done - so much is his declared respect for these people.
Straw made a point of suggesting that the crimes in question were perpetrated by "testosterone fizzing young men"; Keith carefully edited out this bit when he put Straw's statement up (I have little doubt he will now deny having done so, but it's there on the thread - follow the link)
All said that the behaviour of this small band of criminals could in no way be laid at the door of any ethnic or religious community - this has been the view of everybody involved, including the police, judiciary and particularly the researchers who surveyed the Muslim communities and produced a report of their findings - that there was no indication that the crimes were a cultural issue.
We are all surrounded by our culture to one level or another, we are not slaves to that culture - we accept or reject its aspects as we see fit.
The minuscule group of young Muslim men Keith was venting his cultural /racial hatred on, had in fact rejected some of the basic aspects of their culture regarding drinking alchohol and practicing sex outside of marriage - they were criminals who in many ways had embraced some of the worst aspects of Britain's own, indigenous culture.
We notice that the same has happened to a number of young Travellers when they became urbanised.
No authoritative body has ever made anything resembling Keith's all embracing and oven-filling pronouncement - not one.
You may regard him as a "good debater" - most of us recognise him as being the lying racist, ignoramous tosser that he undoubtably is.
"This attitude prevails in every thread, not just with Jim, but with the whole gang of supposed lefties"
This, from a declared "Marxist" who once wrote that the mass murderer Breivik was making points that were worth listening to - now that will cause me some sleepless nights!!
What a team eh - an educated Alf Garnett, a Les Dawson Wannabe and an out-of-work 'Little Britain' cast member - have you decided which one of you is Curly, and which, Larry and Moe?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 10:19 AM

Sorry: I meant Mohammed Shafiq, director of the Muslim Ramadhan Foundation youth group, as a questioner of the activities of some of the "testosterone-fizzing" young men, not Mohammed Sidiqui. Greatly regret having confused in my memory two fairly similar names of distinguished Muslims.

Apologies to both of them. Accuracy matters!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Islamic radicalism . . .
From: bobad
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 10:01 AM

"....especially "educated" ones."

Never confuse education with intelligence.