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Tech: melodeon amplifying

GUEST,melman 23 Apr 14 - 06:01 AM
GUEST,Ed 23 Apr 14 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,FloraG 23 Apr 14 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,FloraG 23 Apr 14 - 08:39 AM
GUEST,melman 23 Apr 14 - 07:18 PM
Will Fly 24 Apr 14 - 03:12 AM
GUEST,Ted Crum (Steamchicken) 24 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM
treewind 24 Apr 14 - 05:18 AM
Leadfingers 24 Apr 14 - 05:47 AM
GUEST 24 Apr 14 - 05:47 AM
Tootler 24 Apr 14 - 09:34 AM
GUEST,melman 24 Apr 14 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,FloraG 24 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Tootler on iPad 24 Apr 14 - 01:42 PM
treewind 24 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM
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Subject: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,melman
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 06:01 AM

I've been asked to join a barn dance band doing small/medium venues like village halls. But I need my own amplificationfor my melodeon. I can't afford a lot so will a mike do the job and which one ?


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 07:25 AM

Recommended in a previous thread (Melodeon amplification), the t.bone CC 75 looks like a good solution.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 08:39 AM

Melman this may be teaching granny about eggs, but- check your melodeon is in tune especially if there is another fixed reed instrument.
Is there another instrument playing base - if so - no need to use ( or amplify )your base. Most accordians have a much better range of bases, as do base guitars.
One melodeon is about the equivalent of 4 fiddles. Do you need to amplify at all in medium sized venues?
Are you going to go through the bands sound system - or do they expect you to have your own amp as well? Do they need you for the base or the melody or both? One or 2 pick ups needed.
Make sure that you can hear the lead instrument - you need someone to set the pace, speed up / slow down/ finish for the dancers with the rest of the band following.
A mike + stand means you can use it for other things. Do you also sing/call? A mike is easier if you change instruments - but takes up more room in the car.
I like to stand during a barn dances so I use one mike ( my old trusted Sures )at about waist level so I can turn a bit left or right if I want more base or melody - depending on what the other instruments are doing. I have another mike for the calling.
+ your purchases are tax deductables against your earnings.
Enjoy the playing.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 08:39 AM

Melman this may be teaching granny about eggs, but- check your melodeon is in tune especially if there is another fixed reed instrument.
Is there another instrument playing base - if so - no need to use ( or amplify )your base. Most accordians have a much better range of bases, as do base guitars.
One melodeon is about the equivalent of 4 fiddles. Do you need to amplify at all in medium sized venues?
Are you going to go through the bands sound system - or do they expect you to have your own amp as well? Do they need you for the base or the melody or both? One or 2 pick ups needed.
Make sure that you can hear the lead instrument - you need someone to set the pace, speed up / slow down/ finish for the dancers with the rest of the band following.
A mike + stand means you can use it for other things. Do you also sing/call? A mike is easier if you change instruments - but takes up more room in the car.
I like to stand during a barn dances so I use one mike ( my old trusted Sures )at about waist level so I can turn a bit left or right if I want more base or melody - depending on what the other instruments are doing. I have another mike for the calling.
+ your purchases are tax deductables against your earnings.
Enjoy the playing.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,melman
Date: 23 Apr 14 - 07:18 PM

Thanks for the help Ed.
FloraG - I'm going through the band's pa and it's mainly for melody. Your advice is just what I need.Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 03:12 AM

The melodeon player in our band also plays saxes, so he uses 5 identical clip-on mics - bought in bulk from Thomanns in Germany. He's rigged up the two boxes he plays so that he has a mic for each side - that's 4 - and uses the 5th for his saxes, attaching it to each as required. Which means he takes up 5 of the 16 channels on the PA mixer!

This sounds perhaps a bit like overkill, but there are good reasons for the setup. The band is a 6-piece plus caller, with bass and drums, and consequently pretty loud. His boxes are certainly loud, but, even in medium-sized venues can't compete with the rhythm section without some amplification. The basic volume level in such a band is always set by the drums. Furthermore, because he's going into the PA system it means that, thought the medium of the monitor/foldback speakers, his sound - and every other sound produced by the players - can be heard by all band members regardless of shape and size of stage, position on stage, etc.

Our band is fairly loud - we're not shrinking violets - but we do aim for clarity and balance in the sound so that the dancers can clearly hear what's going on. So my basic recommendation would be: don't stint on the amplification - then whatever you need in whatever circumstance is available to you.

Just my two-penn'orth! :-)


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,Ted Crum (Steamchicken)
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:40 AM

As Ed recommends, if you're just amplifying the melody end, get yourself a TBone CC75 from Thomann. If you want to amplify the bass end too, get another CC75. Use heavy duty stick-on Velcro to attach the mics (cuts out a load of mechanical noise on a moving instrument, and is easy to use). You can spend hundreds on mics, but bang for buck the CC75 is your best friend (my original has done five years heavy work so far and is still going strong). Beware though: ensure your desk has 48v phantom power available.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: treewind
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 05:18 AM

I'd take a recommendation from Ted as a pretty convincing endorsement!

Note that most mixers have phantom power but unless it's a very expensive mixer you have to turn phantom on or off for all channels at once. Not usually a problem but watch out for other inputs with jack-XLR converters or DI boxes that can't handle P48 (stupid design but it happens).

I use a Microvox mic built in to the bass end of my melodeon, and a Shure SM57 on a stand for the treble side. I made a special battery box/mixer to power the Microvox and combine the two signals.

Also: "One melodeon is about the equivalent of 4 fiddles. Do you need to amplify at all in medium sized venues? "

Absolutely yes, unless you know exactly where you are going and what sort of event it is. Even 50 melodeons are no match at all for a room full of excited and tanked up wedding guests or (to recall a recent example for me) students after a boat club dinner. Amplification requirements are mostly not about room size (unless it's *very* small) they are about competing with background noise.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 05:47 AM

Often a good sound balance can only be achieved with a PA , even for a small combo . Microvox do a combined set up for Accordion which I am sure would work equally well for Melodeon - Seperate volume for either side.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 05:47 AM

If you really want to go cheap, try this, possibly backed by this pre-amp.

The technology used in all contact pickups is pretty much the same, the big question being the pre-amp. Your sound system's likely to be able to handle lo-level pickups, though, with a better pre-amp than the one I linked to, but if it doesn't, that one's not bad and probably fine for a fairly broad-harmonic instrument like a melodeon.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: Tootler
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:34 AM

As others have said you usually need PA for dances even in Village halls. It's not a matter of pumping out 100dBA but just of ensuring the band can be heard over the chatter from the dancers and those sitting out looking on. In addition PA enables you to balance the sound from the different instruments.

We have a concertina and a melodeon in our band and both use microvox pickups and they work just fine.

They have systems for melodeon: http://www.microvox.demon.co.uk/products.htm

Alternatively, if you prefer a microphone, I use a small diaphragm condenser mic for harmonica and tenor recorder and that works well. The mixer we use doesn't have phantom power but my mic takes a 1.5v AA battery so doesn't need it. If you would prefer to use a mic these seem to have had good reports. I was recommended them by my son-in-law but I'd already bought mine (A Shure PG81). You can buy them singly but it's worth considering a matched pair for a melodeon. They also take a AA battery so phantom power is not essential.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,melman
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 09:56 AM

Cheers everyone, that's great. Tootler, ta but the link don't work :(


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

A pick up takes up a lot less room in your house. Its amazing how PA can take over - worse than having several melodeons. Its also easier to transport to venues - better to share cars if you can. We have an average sized estate and the PA takes up most of it.
However - a pick up is a lot less usefull for calling out the raffle prizes. You also have to use the bellows more/ less to vary the volume rather than just being closer / away from the mike.
Depending on which other instruments are in the band you might want to try to play at the contrasting end of the box. ( Base end if playing with a recorder, top if with a guitar ). This is only possible on some tunes.
I've always found that if the volume is up - people just talk louder. I aim for the least volume needed. An experienced band should be able to balance without PA - but its much easier with. I would always use PA with medium to large sized halls and brownies.
Expect to take the best part of an hour to carry the PA in, set up, go to the loo and balance. Dismantling is quicker.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: GUEST,Tootler on iPad
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 01:42 PM

Sorry about the red5 link. Try this one

http://www.red5audio.com/acatalog/Condenser_Mics.html

Scroll down to the RV4. You can buy them singly or as a pair


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Subject: RE: Tech: melodeon amplifying
From: treewind
Date: 24 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM

"If you really want to go cheap, try this, possibly backed by this pre-amp."

Any contact mic is a spectacularly terrible way to mic a melodeon. It does ALL the wrong things: it gets a horrid ringing noise from the reeds vibrating and all the key clack noise, and none of the normal sound you want to hear. It might work on a guitar, but it's useless on wind instruments, which is what a melodeon is, for miking purposes.

There are similar piezo microphone units that would work, or some piezo sounders that work in reverse as a mic, but don't use anything designed as a contact mic.

Also piezos need a high impedance input - many guitar amplifiers are suitable, or a preamp designed for piezo transducers. In general it won't sound good (thin and screechy, no bass) plugged into a mixer mic channel.


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