Bill Leader / Trailer Records

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:49 PM

oops - I buggered the grammar of that last paragraph with sloppy late night
cut n copy n paste editing....😬

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:18 PM

Guest - obviously, not all opinions expressed over the years on this subject
are realistic, sensible, reasonable, legal...etc...

But from a fresh, objective perspective
the whole sorry saga has been mishandled one way or another.

If interested parties have entrenched their positions in this impasse,
surely it is still not too late for serious discussion seeking a fair mutual resolution...

Other long bitter disputes over rights ownership and 'lost' tapes
are now finally reaching agreement.

I am looking at one newly 'discovered', remastered and lovingly packaged CD
on my shelf right now,
tapes that was feared lost forever due to intractable band & record label in-fighting only a few years ago.

So maybe room for hope and optimism...???

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 15 - 07:44 PM

English is a very strange language.

A lot of English people don't understand it.

Read through all the threads Steve and then tell me no one is talking about giving it away.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 15 - 07:14 PM

Who's talking about giving it away? For decades there has been money to be made from the material in question. Not a fortune, but better than the nothing made so far, and with at least a chance of some fair play for the artists involved. Are you Bulmer's uncle?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:43 PM

What I am driving at Fred is that the copyright has been bought and paid for.

Hairbrained schemes to release bootleg CDs are not worth discussing as you seem to agree.

With regard to artistic versus fiscal value I admit I put this rather clumsily and would agree with your comments. That said is it fair to expect someone who has bought something that no one else wanted at the time should then be expected to give it away?

And... there was no snigger intended.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 May 15 - 12:23 PM

Guest. I'm not sure what you are driving at, but your opening sentence is incorrect. I most certainly do believe that artistic value overrides fiscal value. If it were otherwise, what do you think would have happened to the music of Charley Patton or Bessie Smith or to Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens recordings?

In case you're wondering, the record companies junked the masters of these and huge numbers of other recording artists during the 1930s, because they believed they had become financially worthless and therefore not worth keeping.

The only reason we know anything at all about early recorded blues, jazz, country music etc., is because of the tireless efforts of collectors and enthusiasts, who went to enormous lengths to find copies of the original 78s, and then took the trouble to re-release them on LP and CD. And that for reasons of artistic, rather than fiscal value.

JFTR, copyright is an enormous pain in the arse, and the probbaly the sole reason why the Leader LPs have never been reissued. However, I am certainly not prepared to bend the law on this one, and I doubt if anybody else is. That is the reason for the impasse.

Feel free to snigger all you want, but if you've nothing constructive to say, I suggest that you don't say it.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 15 - 10:41 AM

Most of the above, apart from Fred, Jim & John, seem to assume that the recordings in question have a real artistic value and that in itself overrides any fiscal value.

They also seem to assume that those other than the copyright holders, properly obtained, have a greater right to the material.

This issue has been going on for far too long without anyone ever suggesting that it be tried in law.

If those making the most noise feel so strongly about it then by all means form a group/liason/co-operative and get some finance together and take it to the courts.

PRS will love you to bits for enhancing their coffers.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:25 AM

Robin Morton's recordings of John Maguire are still held by him with publicly audible copies at ITMA.Hugh Shields' recordings of Eddie Butcher & others are there also.

I have a number of mint copies of the LP 'Come Day, Go Day, God Send Sunday' by John Maguire. They are for sale, if anyone wishes to contact me at jmoul81075 AT aol.com.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 15 - 07:17 AM

"I've always wanted to hear the "John & Sandra" album (by John Faulkner & Sandra Kerr). If anyone has a copy of it and is prepared to send me the MP3s, I'll gladly donate £15 to the charity of their choice."
Contact me if you can Matt - don't think you're a member (thought you were)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:22 AM

Unless any existing tapes have been kept in correct archival storage conditions
for all these decades.
The current owners may find all they have been hoarding
are boxes containing reels of coagulated mildewed compost...😢

At the very least, they may need to be carefully baked and repaired by 'pro' restoration facilities.
With no guarantees of usable audio quality...

Otherwise the first attempt at playback might result in irepairable damage
or complete destruction.

Tape Salvage & Transfer

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:04 AM

Sorry folks. I don't know what happened there but I managed to send the post before I'd finished and without going anywhere near the GO button! Here's the whole post. Can some kindly mudelf remove the previous one? Thanks

The possibility that someone might have thrown the master tapes out worries me too. However, if they no longer exist, that is not the insurmountable problem it might seem. I have nearly all the Leader LPs (but none of the Trailers). They're all in pretty good condition and remastered copies could certainly be taken from them.

That though leaves us with two problems.

1. We still have the usual shedload of legal difficulties which surround the reissue of any recorded material in copyright.

2. Did Leader just sell the finalised masters and unsold LPs to Dave Bulmer, or did he sell him all the stuff he recorded?

I ask, because record producers usually record more than would have comfortably fitted on a 12" LP. Therefore, are there lying in a vault somewhere unissued recordings that never made it onto the LPs by Charlie Wills, John Maguire etc? If so, are they salvageable?

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 May 15 - 05:52 AM

The possibility that someone might have thrown the master tapes out worries me too. However, if they no longer exist, that is not the insurmountable problem it might seem. I have nearly all the Leader LPs (but none of the Trailers). They're all in pretty good condition and remastered copies could certainly be taken from them.

That still leaves us with two problems.

1.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Betsy
Date: 05 May 15 - 06:39 PM

Guest - We live in hope - I'm sure they do exist but I worry some lawyer / accountant is trying to put a price on them.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 15 - 03:41 PM

I would that thought that the Bulmer estate would have tried to realise the assets by now. I rather fear that the master tapes simply no longer exist.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,LeslieLomas
Date: 05 May 15 - 02:37 PM

Any further developments re. the Trailer/Leader vinyl since this discussion last year? I'm desperate to get digitized versions of the old Muckram Wakes recordings. Any info greatly appreciated.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Hagman
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:31 PM

Guestwho wrote: "I have just been lent a CD copy of "The Rout Of The Blues" released on Leader Records in 2001, LERCD2011. So it is out there!"

My understanding of the CDs of the Trailer stuff that does circulate is that they were CD-Rs made and sold by Celtic Music from vinyl transcriptions. Often seen on eBay. It was quote a few years ago, as well - audio transcription software has improved heaps since then - about time someone did a proper job (assuming here that the master tapes are missing or out of reach).

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM

Matt, if you're FB friends with Quentin Keane, he might be able to help... he did the excellent Folkcatalogue's Argo Records blog.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM

(Having typed the above, the thought was nagging at me that the particular rare record I was referring to might not have actually been on Leader or Trailer anyway. And lo and behold, a quick google search reveals that it wasn't - it was on Argo! D'oh! Oh well ... the suggestion still stands!)

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

I suspect that GUEST, sB already knows that. He/she did after all write "publish and be damned".

I'm a great believer in copyright law in general but, like any truly moral person, I believe that what's important and what's right supersedes the law of the land. Ideally of course, the musicians that made all those locked-up Bulmer albums would now be distributing them themselves, throwing caution to the wind. (And, really, there's not much "caution" that would be involved: as pointed out above, who's gonna complain?)

I've always wanted to hear the "John & Sandra" album (by John Faulkner & Sandra Kerr). If anyone has a copy of it and is prepared to send me the MP3s, I'll gladly donate £15 to the charity of their choice.

I'd love to see all those albums "liberated" via Bandcamp or Soundcloud, or of course full official reissue. But the latter is not that likely to happen. Personally I think some laws are made to be broken.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:03 AM

Guest. The rights to the Cecilia Costello recordings expired some years ago, before the recent revision of the law on mechanical copyright. The recordings are therefore in the public domain. That is why Rod Stradling felt safe in issuing that one.

However, most of the Leader LPs were specially recorded by Leader Sound in the 1970s. Therefore, they are still in copyright - to someone.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:36 AM

"Just do it. Publish and be damned - the guy's dead FGS - make as good a digital copy as poss. from a mint LP - remove the pops and clicks - and re-issue the thing as a CD. Do it overseas and avoid UK copyright laws. Simples."

Too right! I would urge any musicians that made those albums to stick them up on Bandcamp at the very least.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM

BTW I have mint unplayed 'Songs For Every Season' if anyone want to re-issue those.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:22 PM

Just do it. Publish and be damned - the guy's dead FGS - make as good a digital copy as poss. from a mint LP - remove the pops and clicks - and re-issue the thing as a CD. Do it overseas and avoid UK copyright laws. Simples.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM

The Cecilia Costello CD is no guide to things becoming available. The rights appear to have remained with the BBC who made the original recordings.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM

Just to emind folks that an augmented version of the Leader LP of Cecilia Costello has recently been issued by Musical Traditions.

Cecilia Costello. Old Fashioned Songs. Musical Traditions. MTCD 363-4.

I had hoped that the death of the unfortunate Mr Bulmer would mark the reissue of all the Leader catalogue material. But as of so far, nothing.

Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guestwho
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

Not too sure about the rest of the catalogue (Other than the obvious - and tragic - lack of Nic Jones reissues amongst many others) but I have just been lent a CD copy of "The Rout Of The Blues" released on Leader Records in 2001, LERCD2011. So it is out there!

Subject: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM

Does anyone have any news about the fate of the archive of Trailer Records material recorded by Bill Leader in the 1970's, and controlled most recently by the late Dave Bulmer? Is there any prospect that any of that material will be re-released in a digital format?

It is simply a crime that the two albums by Robin and Barry Dransfield ("The Rout of the Blues" and "Lord of All I Behold") have never been released on CD or through a digital download. Those albums are truly classic gems!